Episode 141: Betting on Buttigieg


Ooh. I'm Andhra distinctness. And I'm one of the hosts of national reviews ordered liberty podcast. My co host David French, and I discussed all the latest political news, and especially the intersections between politics culture in faith. We approach these topics with a focus on the constitution, and the importance of our founding values, and every once in a while, you can even catch us talking about are clashing views on sports and pop culture. You can listen to ordered liberty at national review dot com or subscribe on itunes, Google, play Stitcher. Tune in or wherever else you get your podcasts. With the. History and redemption in Minneapolis Virginia. Cavaliers win their first national title a year after historic loss by a number one seed to sixteen seed, we'll discuss this and nothing more. Okay. Maybe a few other things on this special who's championship edition of the editors rich, lower UVA, nineteen ninety joined as always or at least occasionally by the pride of Tennessee. David French and our special guest the guru, David Johnson out with the new book. And I mean, the new book like released this morning book the case for dividend growth and the Notorious B d Michael Brendan Dougherty. Author of the forthcoming book. My father left me Ireland. You're listening to a national review podcast. If you're listening to this podcast on Nassar dot com. We're delighted to have you. But it would be easier for you and better for us. If you made as part of your feet at Google, Stitcher. Tune in or I tunes if you like what you hear here. Please consider giving the five star review on itunes. If you don't like what you hear here. Please forget I said anything so David you. You're the basketball expert among us. So we'll go to you first rank that title game last night. It was a good game. I mean, you know, I jokingly in in the hall of fame of bad Twitter takes I jokingly sent out a Twitter poll about an hour before tip off asking people to vote on the final score. And I think the highest final score. I had was fifty one forty nine. It was two the best defences in the NC double A, and one of the things I actually thought was interesting about this game. A lot of NCW games that I don't like I don't like a lot of instability games have low scores. Just because they're playing basketball. They can't hit shots. They can't execute on offense and everyone's hustling, but yeah, they they hustle high school basketball too. And but on this you're talking about two incredibly coached very well coached defensive teams with very different defensive schemes. And you know, the tech had that swarming scheme. That's always kinda fun to watch. But you know, look, the the players rose the occasion was well played big shots. You know, it's under appreciated. You had a kid step up with who tech who has a sixty one percent foul shooter with the eyes of the world on him and just stone cold draining. Two foul shots to take up by. Three. And then Virginia does the riskier play rather than going for two goes for the tie with that corner three. And that was I mean that was tremendous bit is also tech defensive breakdown. It was everyone collapsed in on the driving player when they should. Yeah. When they should've just let him score because I would have left Virginia down one having Phalle again. But what a game. It was fantastic hats off to the Cavaliers. And did you sleep any last night rich, I slept very happy. Man. It was those amazing. I've been so defeated about UVA basketball for good reason for so long and when they and the regular season when NC state just took them into overtime. I was like, okay. This is never happening. Forget it. We're never getting to the promised land. And just that that Purdue game. You just feel like the palpable sense of getting over the hump, and they I mean, it's amazing. They last three games. They're losing by three points with five seconds left with one. Second left, and with wealth seconds left and one every single one of those those games with just a very just steely mentally tough team. And also you need need a few breaks. Did I pick up on Twitter? You're Duke fan. Did I why it was from that era from eighty nine to ninety two? It was I hated UNLV so much believe them why accurately believe them to be a basically everything that was wrong and evil in the universe. And when Bobby Hurley, and criminally or beat UNLV ninety one it forever changed my life, and I've just been a huge coach K fan for years gotten to spend time with them over the years. And I love the guy. And so and also this do team this year, you know, it was really something special in the fact they of couldn't get done chains all tournament and elaborate into when a championship. So tell us a little bit about the the new book the case for dividend growth. Yes. So it's it's my first book that is actually in the vein of what I do for a living. It's. Kind of my treatise on the investment philosophy that we have in my company the bond some group, so as you know, a little over a year ago. My first book that I ever wrote came out which David French. He wrote the forward four called crisis responsibility. And it was more in that political and cultural and kind of socio economic vein that we're out of those passions lie band, then I thought maybe I should write something in line with what I do for a living. So I took twenty years worth of my belief system about investing and packed into one book. And that's the one that comes out today. Great, congratulations. Good luck with it. Thank you. So let's dive David on Trump's taxes. Democrats said forever that they're gonna get Trump's taxes if they retook the house, which they did. And which they now are demanding under this. Obscure early somewhat bazaar provision in in the law. Would he make it? Yeah. You know, number one. I mean, Trump has promised to release his taxes. I think he should release his taxes. I think he should do voluntarily. Number two, the Democrats here. I think you know, one let me back up a minute. One of the things that I think is dispiriting about the the last couple of years political combat as we have realized how many really grossly overbroad bad laws exist in the US code. And it's almost as if you're a government official, and you want to accomplish something you just sort of send lawyers Bologne cking through either the code of the CF are the US code to find something that's gonna Lau you to do what you want. And you know, when when we saw that the Democrats are seeking Trump's tax returns, the lawyer in me says on what basis because you just can't grab a person's tax returns for any reason in the US. I mean, they're confidential by law subject, you know, certain certain very relatively narrows disclosure obligations and certain relatively narrow circumstances. And there is no pre. Acting law that requires presidents to to disclose all their tax returns. And so what was the basis, and you look, and you see that there is a law. Dating back to the nineteen twenties that essentially says tax returns are going to be confidential unless the chairman of the House Ways, and means and Senate in joint committee on station in Senate committees says we want him, and then if they want him they get him, and for any reason or no reason at all. And and now, of course, it says if you could identify the tax payer through the tax return information, you're getting than it should be only disclosed closed executive session, but, you know, congress never leaks. I mean, this is this is a ridiculous law. So on the one hand, I want Trump to disclose on the other hand, the fact that he doesn't disclose shouldn't mean, he subject to abusive legal process, and I think this laws just a terrible law. David just seems entirely. Pretextual justification forgetting their tax returns, not related any legislative purpose. They're not going to write any laws based on what is in or not in Trump's tax returns. Would he make you know, if it's a one sorry, you're wrong? Yeah. Yeah. I think that the bigger question for me. I mean, I completely agree with the other David Frum a beagle standpoint. It's very dubious, but you have to wonder at this point what why Trump tears the voters don't care like let's just take for granted. We all know what's going to be in there. He doesn't give anything charity and businesses lost a ton of money for a lot of years. The people don't want him to release it a real estate developers that it's gonna shine overnight on the ridiculous cronyism of the tax code about the depreciation of Alice's net operating loss carry forwards that this class of people gets no charity didn't make much money lost money and didn't pay. Oh, any doesn't know that? That's what's going to be in there. The voters knew and didn't care. So what does he have to hide at this point? It's really bizarre. I think ego reasons probably rank high here, Michael just admit publicly. These things are seeing these things publicly splashed. I think that's right. I mean, I think he has kind of New York or any big city real estate developers idea of self worth which is sitting in a building with your name on. It is the proof of your wealth. And the details on what you provide DeutscheBank when you're asking for loans are just a convenience that that you provide to continue sitting in that building with your name on it. I'm troubled on the on the New York side is that this law the proposed law New York. This proposed law is for one man. And I think it's a horrible legislative strategy. I think it's it's anti Republican in the small our sense of the word to write a law. Which you specked is only going to be used to enforce on one man who you don't like this is corrosive to the system. There are lots of other ways to continue putting pressure on Trump to release these tax returns. If you think it's a worthwhile strategy. You know, they're basically looking for a freebie from Albany on the strategy. And you know, like like David Barnes says I'm not sure it matters to voters. So David Johnson. Why do they have the theory that I I don't understand why people on the left of thought that see the tax returns of somehow you'll know something about his relationship with Russia. What how does that theory work? What would what would there be a tax return? That would tell you something important that we don't already I haven't seen a single thing from the left that has made any sense about why they want the tax returns. I even during the campaign. There was all the talk of hit the tax returns to see what he's really worth. And and. Most people I think no, personal income tax return doesn't have your balance sheet. I suppose there could be something that's implicitly indicting if he made some sort of statements about his cashflow and income to a vendor, and then the tax return say something different you could get issues there. But if that were the case that would be coming out anyways in their investigation of Bank fraud related, but but there's a precedent here that adds to my confusion. It's the way Trump handled the bankruptcies during the campaign because it was the moment I realized I had no idea what I was talking about about anything with the campaign because I thought this is going to kill them when it comes out that he's really had this troubled business passes. Not what everyone thinks he is. And he turned those bankruptcies into a plus for him. He said, oh, absolutely. I took advantage of the laws, and I did what I supposed to do. And everyone told me I was smart to get out of all attic city and everyone bought it. And I remember just thinking I missing something here. I've been he would just do the same thing tax return. Of course, I didn't. Pay taxes? I took advantage of the laws and makes me smart. So even the ego thing I think he would spend it to his own benefit it. I think the whole thing is confusing as far as Russia Russia. Ten ninety nine them for. David will this go to the supreme court or what what's legal pather, David French? I should say. Yeah. I mean, it's early. It's almost certain that he will just flat out defy the request which will lead to litigation and. Yeah, you know, I think it'll wind towards the supreme court, but on a not necessarily on an expedited basis, so you know, this is not like one of those disputes where you know, at the travel ban headed up there pretty quickly and other disputes sometimes head up at supreme court pretty quickly. I think this will be pretty conventional pace of of litigation which means, you know, if he would probably not make it to the spring court before the end of his first term if he's not reelected, these she will probably go away. If he is reelected, you know, maybe middle of his second term will have some sort of pre court resolution on it. I think it's it's probable just given the my general viewpoint on on a litigation is if you are. Defying the plain language of the statute, you're usually going to lose. So I think the odds are against him overall unless he can make a constitutional challenge to the law, which which is possible. But I think he's likely to lose not certain to lose. But I don't think by the time. This is finally judicata. He he may be out of office. So segue to the question to you Michael Brennan toward congress will obtain Trump's tax returns this year next year twenty twenty three never. I'm just going to say next year. I feel like this is a guess so next year bond sin. Never French never say never sorry. Michael. Something wrong when I'm not on the same side of an exit question. All right. So before we move on as many of, you know, national review has had cruises once or twice a year for a very long time. Now, these wonderful vents, we get to know, our our readers and supporters and make in some cases, really lifelong friends, so these wonderful events and to hear more about them, we go to the great former publisher and current vice president of national review, Jack valor. Ensign Jack Fowler here to encourage you to join your favorite conservatives. This August on NR's Canada. New England crews in Montreal will board Holland America's luxuriance Zaandam and over the next week. We'll sail the glorious Saint Lawrence river visit Quebec City far harbor, Boston and other great ports and enjoy great seminars and receptions throughout the sojourn prices start at just twenty four ninety nine a person get complete information at NR cruise dot com. All right. So we've already had a big surprise in the democratic race, which is the rise of mayor Pete Pete Buddha. Judge the mayor of south bend who has been knocking people socks off. It's all started. And a CNN a forum where he gave a peppery answer to a question about Mike Pence and his support for Trump and Michael seems though since booted edges kind of occupied the betta aerobic lane better than Beddoe urkel, the Aurora Keti splendid first day of of fundraising and has had some pretty good crowds. And we've been generally fairly bullish on Beto. But it seems like the young charming white guy who hasn't really done much in his political career that's basis now being occupied. But booted edge, what do you make of it? I mean, I think it is a real phenomenon. I had a. Friend who is very active in progressive, politics and democratic politics, and whose opinion I trust I don't want to blow her up right now. But she said she thought Buddha judge was actually already on track to win this thing. And Kamala be VP. So I wanna put her pick on the record and reveal it if it turns to be true. Listen, I think Democrats do like to fall in love. They love younger idealistic seeming men, the man from hope in Bill Clinton they loved Jimmy Carter. And I think they still view this in many ways, Barack Obama was that man in two thousand eight right? Young candidate that taps into their idealism in a way. Democrats I think engage in politics where they they they built up this massive amount of cynicism and distrust of the system during Republican administrations, and then they want candidate that comes along and kind of transforms all of that pent up energy into something that they feel positive about. And that's obviously not how Republicans treat their candidates. So Buddha judges making a play for that that kind of dramatic role in this primary. I was kind of refreshed and impressed by what I took to be his his sort of man full defense of the Piscopo church, and it's kind of moral revolution. I oppose that revolution theologically in Sacramento Lee as a Catholic, but it was just interesting to hear him say in these terms. Well, Mike Pence is a problem with my creator. I'm kind of I kind of like that. He said that because I do think a Piscopo Lena's still maintains its function as the social doctrine that is most likely to be imposed on Americans by law. Really? Well, yeah. I mean, I in a way like if you look at the decline of the the mainline Protestant church attracts perfectly with the rise of the nuns, the religious nuns and oh N ES. And what you find is. There's there'll be a moral and in Sacramento revolution, the pimple church, and it's followed on three years later by legislative pushes by liberals to make these changes obligatory for all evangelical and Catholic institutions as well. I think in the long run of history, we're going to say like, the Piscopo church was the, you know, American church unacknowledged, and unofficial you gotta write this. You know, I mean Jodi Jodi bottom wrote a book like this few years ago, and I think everyone should freed that book called an ANC. Age. But anyway, it was just. It strikes me that that is America's religion by default. Even if people have stopped attending these churches. So anyway, I think Democrats are energized by Buddha judge, and you know, if he's going to be a more energetic and slightly more on the ball Beto. I you know, maybe he has a shot. I think after Donald Trump's election, we really can't discount anything. So David bouncing what do you make of just look at booed edges resume, and it is impossible to get more credentialed marriage critic elitist resume than his should that be something in his favor or or something that should make us more suspicious of him. I mean in terms of the electoral, you know success. I think it will help him with the left. I think that if he were running against Trump in primary it would hurt him in significant way. But actually, what is most interesting to me, the thirty seven year old thing. I don't think will hurt him. I don't know if I know in a primary won't general. I'm not sure yet if his you know, gay sexual orientation would hurt him. But the fact that he is not running a little bit to the right of the kind of far left opponents in the primary that he's actually with them on single payer and green new deal and things like that. That's the part that I'm I think is going to kind of trip up a little if he was willing to be everything needs to check all those boxes. He's the intellectual antidote to Trump Harvard. Oxford military service young he's got eight checks all those boxes, but then was kind of. Reasonable on economic issues. I think there would be a lot of people that would open up. So is he is he because I think there's this divide in them field where there are people who say I'm in favor of the green green new deal Medicare for all who don't actually sign up for the specific legislation in. That's just do top line. That's where he would be. So he's a top line hop. Yeah. So I want to jump on David bonds point about the meritocratic nature of Buda judge where he has all these qualifications. What I find interesting about that is that he's he went back to south bend and served south bend. Where a lot of people degrees would say I'm going to start guard and start making a fortune or I'm going to go off to London or South Asia or New York DC. So like, I said in this idea of like energy, that's transformed. I think Democrats would love to transform what they've felt as their own sense of hostility. Towards red America their own sense of alienated from the heartland. I think they would love to use a guy like peach Buddha, judge and say, actually, no we're gonna take all of our credential ISM all our educational our good intentions and serve people who don't know any better what they really need. So on an emotional level. Right. I I'm the opposite of Nate silver on this unemotional gut level. I think people to judge answers the dramatic question. That's been posed by this era for Democrats that that David French the that attitude, we're gonna go explain to people who don't know any better, traditional liberal attitude. That's actually much better than what was the implied. Hillary Clinton attitude is which was just we're waiting for you to die face and go away and not bothers anymore. Well, you know, Buddha judge broadcasts. I'm a progressive. And I don't hate you. I'm a progressive and actually. Kind of like you, even if you're, you know, even if you oppose me, which is a distinguishing himself a quite a bit from some of the others in the field, especially say and Elizabeth Warren who's broadcasting I'm progressive and everyone who's against us is the enemy. But one thing I would one thing I'd say about him is is far as. Leaving himself with some wiggle room. I mean, he's on Medicare for all he sort of said, okay? We'll that could mean Medicare for all or it could mean Medicare for all who want Medicare. In other words, this public option idea, which is believe it or not sort of anchoring there. Right edge of the democratic primary right now. I you know, the thing about him. I think that is interesting and injury Sullivan wrote this that when the American people want to change they often just go opposite of what they had before. You know, Trump is in many ways just so fundamentally different from Obama. It's almost the, you know, almost a textbook example of that. We've had many other examples of that in American history. So for example, when the Knicks era ended with accepted that short Gerald Ford interlude with Jimmy Carter who's this southern Baptist Sunday school teacher who walked on his inaugural parade and was sort of shunned the trappings of the office. If if the American people are going to turn away from Trump, which is far from assured. It's stands to reason that they will turn away pretty decisively into more in not not turn towards a democrat version of Trump perhaps towards a sort of a democrat version of anti-trump and hard to get more opposite from Donald Trump than thirty seven year old combat vet Rhodes, scholars speaks eight languages can actually find casick's stand on a map. You know, the the, you know, he's gonna have a direct contrast with Trump. But, you know, look, I mean, it's a lot of this also feels kind of premature because as we have seen these candidates in the operatives for these candidates have no qualms there. There are no qualms right now about ripping each other to shreds and during this primary, and you know, woke Twitter hasn't fully gotten a hold of him yet. It's it's going to be very very interesting because as of right now, you know, all the Democrats are broken down into these sort of different factions, and there is no love lost between them. So David on the substance of Bitta judge. He tells us something interesting, which is that there seems to be the core. Consensus across these candidates may we haven't had heard from Biden about it yet. But about changing the institutions of American government and Buddha judge for the reasons that David outlines relative moderate and the democratic field, but not on any of this stuff. You know, he wants to the supreme court that appoints itself he wants to do away with the electoral college, and it just it just seems as though there that that is a lowest common denominator. Now, those sort of things for the Democratic Party. What is the issue that he has a moderate view on? What's the what's the issue giving him moderate, bona fides? You know, he want statehood for Puerto Rico in DC, the issue with Pence what David just had a moment ago is correct that he has his kind of likable posture with opponents. But then when Joe Biden said that might pensin is a guy he's woke up and said, no, he's not he's hateful and the holds two things that are contrary to what my God believes. I would I would love to have that theological discussion with them. But I'm just curious where the other than maybe kind of style where the moderate stuff gets to be applied to him. Because so far he said he liked the seventy percent top marginal rate. He said greener deal was great framework, and then his single payer kinda nuance too little, but you know, I haven't seen it actual policy example. And in fact, we've seen plenty of the opposite, the Puerto Rico statehood thing I think you get him in a lot of trouble to day that he David he will go to chick fillet. Let's say chick flick. One thing. I think that it might be what woke Twitter starts tearing them apart on or it might be a way for him to. I don't know if this is a way to burnish, you're moderate credentials. But as mayor it seems he did try to institute programs to accelerate the demolition of houses that were occupied by squatters or that he thought were subject to blight or trying to to up the fines on homeowners who weren't doing improvements that the city said needed to be done in order to kind of drive some residents out that maybe a thousand homes thousand days. Yeah. I think some of those getting up to code and some of them was just just bulldozing. So he did his job trucks much. Well, that would be interesting. You know, it's I think David was saying how he believes that they're gonna have to go. After once you'll Twitter it gets a hold of and so forth. But the obvious voted ability is experiencing a hundred thousand people I think it's a little less than a hundred thousand I go to south bend every other year for the USC Notre Dame game. And it's it's the small and and does that matter anymore. Well, obviously, Michael said this moment ago, I would've said emphatically, of course, matters two years ago. And now I say I don't have any idea what I'm talking about. Because apparently a dozen. But I mean, if we were gonna have a mayor with no federal office or statewide office experience, I would have guessed it would be a big city mayor if they were going to get to the top. And I think that camera and Corey because they're the ones that are getting kind of inch down by. I mean, he's pulling ahead of Corey I think that they're going to have to go after them for the lack of experience thing, and that becomes a real great general election opportunity, if he were to get through so David French tying up loose end from last week, Biden subsequent to recording semi apologize say sorry. But just said he he gets it that he shouldn't smell the hair of women. He doesn't know an eskimo kiss them all that sort of stuff, and then and then kind of made fun of it. I think in. Totally inbounds way where he'd, you know, hug someone on stage and say, oh Lonnie gave me position to to hug me, which is caused outrage on on woke Twitter just seems to me that he's absent some, you know, groping alligator real groping allegation that he's he's perhaps found a way to thread is way through this one. Yeah. You know, if he's smart he's going to ignore what Twitter because he has no path to the nomination by pandering to those guys in and in and on point to that today. The New York Times has this really interesting. The upshot has this really interesting look at the difference between Democrats and social media and other Democrats and two things stand out one. The Democrats are not sort of really active on social media are the majority of Democrats and number two the Democrats who are not as so active on social media are more moderate and more conservative so fit. Fifty three percent of Democrats off social media identified themselves as moderate or conservative only twenty nine percent of Democrats on social media. Seventy percent of Democrats off social media say political correctness is a problem in the US, less than half Democrats on social media. So this is this is Joe Biden sweet spot in and I think the Democrats on social media. The especially the woke Twitter version of social media have have great deal about their relative power simply because until people start voting. They're kind of the only ones who are heard. And so, you know, that's Biden's laying. Now, the the thing that could really trip him up as if he surrounds himself self the staff that never gets their nose out of Twitter in which case, you know, he'll be urged apologize for this apologize for that. But if Biden sort of stays true to Biden sort. State sticks with his sort of core personality wraps himself around the Obama flag to the extent as a path that's a pass. But then we'd also have to see something from him that we've never ever ever seen before which is a competent primary campaign. So apparently, no young people want to work for Biden. So maybe the staff and in that respect won't won't be a problem. But Michael exit question to you rank from one to six the top Democrats in terms of likelihood of winning the nomination one most likely six least likely one to six okay? Let's try. One. Bernie Sanders is my pole position candidate to wildcard I'm gonna see Pete Buddha. Judge, you know, I do think Democrats wanna fall in love with a young guy. Three also in that lane beta aerobic. I think if if it's not to judge it's beta in that lane four. Kamala Harris in the sense that it seems like harasses people are kind of wired in with New York Times Washington Post and are able to get a lot of dirt dumped on their opponents. Whether my a met five now. Cory Booker stages some improbable comeback. I think we're pulling up the edge now and number six. I don't know Tulsi Gabbard. Why? Tulsi Gabbard guy has to catch him self and put tolsey in there. Theory of that of be I don't know Assad poisons. I I don't know. But. Yeah. We'll see that that was very manful effort, David bots. Yeah. Bernie Sanders still at one, but I would put chem- further up in four. I think. That she would be the candidate. I would like to see nominated really. And I think once you get into that general election that identity politics side, her charisma. I can't stand her. She's my Senator in the great state of California, but she is just complete anti Hillary as far as her like ability to connect our presentation, she she'll have a little charisma factor that Hillary didn't have and it's just downright dangerous. And so she scares me more, but she doesn't fundraising prowess. She's definitely going to have the politics ticket. Now, they're they're going with a lot of white males right now which impede and Biden, and Bernie, and and Bago and so she could fill in that lane. Corey I wouldn't put in the top six at this point. I cost my list altogether. But it's hard to do it, you know, because kinda changes so quickly and all you can look to right now. Like, we're supposed to be a little more sophisticated and just to faulting the name idea. And I think the polls mostly reflect aim ID, but the fundraising does say a lot and Bernie's still it's really impressive. How he's kept his fundraising. Apparatus interesting. The map is good for him too early. Yep. Could and California being earlier helps cameras. Well, David French. You know, look, I I'm I'm not going to underestimate Bernie, and this I would have to put him in the pole position early on. And I'm gonna I'm gonna say that he did something really shrewd where he sort of doubled down on his lifelong view of immigration, which he you know, he sort of anchored down the right edge of the democratic field on immigration recently. When he was saying, you know, look this open, borders, ideas, just a bad idea. So I'm I'm putting Bernie at the as the front runner, and after that, we're gonna go with three Bs and a k Beto but digest I never can pronounce his name consistently Biden and Kamla. I think each one of those sort of are equally it's tough to different differentiate between those three as far as their chances. And then after that, I'm just gonna. To go with field because somebody somebody will be flash more one or more people will have their moment. I mean, we're so such a long way away. So somebody else's going to have a moment. I literally have no clue it is. And you know, Elizabeth Warren really seems to be fading. Assault putting her third and Massachusetts, which is pretty surprising. And that was their best senators. So this would be my take out say, I agree. I think we had EMMY on this Bernie number one. You know, he's he's got the fundraising. He could really go one two. And I wa and New Hampshire I go number two player to be named later or David puts it field as just a nod to modesty. I think we're just getting started. And they're they're gonna be some crazy things three Biden just because as different pointed out there just a lot of Democrats aren't woke Twitter Democrats, and he has has a really good claim on them. And maybe just need, you know, forty percent to win this nomination that I'd put Buddha judge number four number five. Stacey Abrams and number six Beto Rourke. Commenter feels definitive. Settled the one dark horse. I do think some debate moment. I haven't kinda Carly Fiorina type moment. A Julian Castro deserves to be in the top six. No one's heard of him. He's getting no traction these raising money. But if he were to get an opportunity, he has the talent, use charisma for sure comma, Harris, and you know, her much better than I just she's just doesn't seem very good to me very likable. Now, maybe they don't want someone likable maybe like the on prosecuted. I'm going to prosecute the case against Trump thing works, but it seems to me Stacey Abrams who's actually also done nothing which seems actually to to help people rather people early early in the process. There's this seems certain Winston to her rich. You're not allowed to say that comma Harris's not likeable. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Out to a year ago. And I said Hillary Clinton wasn't likeable and everyone just get that feeling like I've just done something wrong. I don't know what it is. Nothing. So I get the come Allah, has charisma argument would I don't know. And what I don't think democrat voters. No, according to the polls why you she running right? She's she's gearing up. She's got top-flight consultants and staff she's inherited some, you know, the leftover bits of the Clinton machine that are scattered like Russian oil tankers at the end of nineteen Ninety-one. Okay, fine. But why she running I think I have an idea of why Biden is running or even Buddha judge or or certainly know why Bernie Sanders is running. Why's beta reading? That's I think some of these guys are mean Beddoes running in commas running because they can be president. I mean, this is I mean, this is it. I mean, if if you're if you're if there's a school of thought that that I think has got some credibility that sort of says, there's a shot you have. And if you miss it, you miss it. And you know, right now, if there was going to be a time when there would be somebody who could say, okay, wait a minute. Like, look, let's just get real. Where all progressives were all going to basically, hire the same people were all going to pursue basically the same policies. So let's find the person who can win. Let's find the person you can turn out two hundred fifty thousand more people in Wisconsin the way Obama did or increase turn out in Detroit the way Obama did in flip some of these states back blue, you know, that's the logic. I mean, the you can't really say it like that. But I think the real story is some of these guys know are feel like. If they could get one on one with Trump that they can be Trump. And that that's the reason why they're running period. Yeah. Feels like a nomination worth having. And then is just they're exceptions to this. Obviously Rick Perry the first time around, but almost never do lose. Anything by running for president, especially have some confidence in your own own abilities and have something going on like Buddha JR. If nothing else happens to him in this race. And just kind of fizzles out is still huge upside him just from what's happened. So far when you can imagine him for cabinet post or something like that. If in future democratic administration, I would say in the case of camera. It's almost a foregone conclusion, I think she would be the VP pick if any of the white males that we talked about end up getting the nomination, she would be pretty obvious election. So not only different cabinet positions and overall brand of Asian little book and TV and things like that. But I think in this case the actual VP side. There's a couple of them that have a pretty good inside track on that. So let me can I David David Johnson and question my exposure. Ecologist to double down on on riches unforgivable error of written error of of raising ability. My experience of her is that she comes across as almost relentlessly condescending. And I have not been had the prolonged exposure that you have is a resident of the great state of California. But that seems to be the kind of demeanor that a lot of progressives like because it's sort of lecturing the plebes until. But it it. It is not it is not. Huma, very condescending. And his base still would have described him as very likeable it hurt in hurricane his everything you're saying that Richard Richardson them over to go. I would agree with like for me. And you guys we don't find it like -able that condescending, and there's a real sense of entitlement. And here's some of the stuff that will end up coming out. She is brutal to her staff. She is a total premadonna the joke on her as she doesn't like any four star hotels. It's not enough stars. You know, that kind of stuff that could end up becoming a problem that I don't think you're gonna have with with Pete. And you notice I only use his first name just taking the easy path. I think that beta beta in these guys aren't gonna have some of that so cameras got this unlikable almost I guess you could say Hillary aspect to her right? But I'm referring to woke Twitter, the people that were that energy is that millennial crowd and a lot of the various aspects of their base. They find that personality aspect likable for the same reasons, I suppose that you and I find it unlikable. All right. So before we move on let me tell people about an are plus excuse me, the new digital subscription services. Actually, not that new. It's the digital subscription on national view dot com, all sorts of mazing benefits, including access to all recount and clean for the print magazine, and the web exclusive content that is behind our metered paywall that is increasingly encroaching on our free content. There are almost no ads if you're on an our plus no ads you'll see on articles. So you won't get distracted by any of noxious advertising trying to read our content. You get the ability to comment on after you dot com, which is the exclusive privilege of in our plus members. You can also be part of a private Facebook group where there's a robust ongoing discussion and you get invited exclusively to calls events. We had our biggest call ever two weeks ago with Ben Shapiro, and we had our second at our plus meet up down in Washington DC prior to the. Charlize summit at a dive bar called Irish Times. And we plan. More of these meet ups around the country, hopefully one coming to you soon in Texas or Florida more details to come. So please check it out all sorts of great deals that you can find for for first time subscribers probably cost you about five dollars a month and is great value. And we think the forma sign of that is just how this program has been growing by leaps and bounds getting close to twenty thousand subscribers now, so David French let me go to you you've written about this chick fillet as been targeted yet again excluded from the San Antonio airport and then Buffalo New York follow suit excluded from the Buffalo New York airport. And there are people out here out there who think just in the cause of social Justice, travelers transiting, those airports should not have the opportunity to have some amazing juicy original chicken. Sandwiches and welfare us. Yeah. This is a bigger deal than I think people realize, but well, let me say this. I think out here in the red states where I am people realized that this is a big deal. I think the progressive world doesn't realize that they're poking the bear again here in in. Here's here's why think this. This is number one. It comes across as shockingly extremist to do this on two counts. One is just flagrantly unconstitutional. I mean flagrantly unconstitutional and now I don't have a right to open a restaurant in a in an airport. Nobody's has a right to open a restaurant in an airport. But I do have a right for a government official to make a decision about my application to open a restaurant free of punitive, a free of punitive moment. Retaliating? It's me for my freedom of expression and just to make this sort of really concrete. And this is this is what we call black letter law. And there's a great case out in California where a bunch of schools school district in California punished the owner of what's called a living history farm. It's a farm where people sort of replicate history reenact history. A punish the owner for posting things on his personal private Facebook page like comparing Kirsten gillibrand a somebody. We haven't talked about today to an ice clean or an ice sculpture saying other negative things about Democrats, and they cancelled all their field trips to this living history farm, depriving it of a big pile of revenue and apo- Obama appointee. Judge just ruled in favor of this of this farm saying you can't do that you can't retaliate on the basis of private expression. So number one, it's fly. Flagrantly unconstitutional and number two thing. Let's just Pondimin about how extremist this is. This is what this is why they're canceling Chick-fil-A because Chick-fil-A supported the Salvation Army and the fellowship of Christian athletes in a very small donation to a group home the fellowship of Christian, athletes and the Salvation Army are out of bounds. Now that is nuts. That is absolutely nuts. If you're going to say about those organizations that it is out of bounds for private corporation have anything to do with them in this sort of, you know, in the charitable way. I mean, that's basically every evangelical church every Catholic relief organization every religious organization that isn't sort of main line piss Capelli as which I didn't know NBD loved so much. So this is really Michael I wrote a column about that this this this week as well. And just the Salvation Army, really. I mean, you know, millions and millions of people served every single year they raised two billion dollars from private sources every year and the beef that they have against them. There's this think progress, quote unquote report about Chick-fil-A giving that as highlighted this stuff and and been the hook for a lot of the the left to attack. But I is just that the Salvation Army says we're going to buy buy local anti-discrimination laws. So that that's like, you know, that's not enough to say you're going to abide by the local anti-discrimination laws fellowship, Christian athletes. If you sign up to be a leader in keeping with their faith. You have to say I'm not going to engage in homosexual acts. You have to say I'm not gonna engage in heterosexual acts outside of marriage on not going to drink. I'm not gonna smoke. I'm not gonna use drugs. So they they make that into an anti-gay thing in the home that David mission. I looked it up a little bit yesterday is. This home for troubled young men, Christian run in of Dahlia Georgia that the founder of Chick-fil-A support it from the very beginning. And they what they use against them. Their few blog posts from a couple years ago that were were intemperate, and, you know, set some anti-feminists and things in some things about sources of homosexuality that people don't like, but it should like one or two blog posts from years ago. And again, you're disregarding every outs of good this home does for for troubled kids. So it's really insane and very disturbing. So there's a couple of things one. I actually don't actually think all those cases you cite are pretextual. I mean, this is about the Chick-fil-A CEO saying he was against same sex marriage and. Really? I mean, really what I see going on at the deepest level is it's an aim for this moral gala -tarian ISM to monopolize the social aims of every significant institution in the country. Right is that you cannot have a Catholic hospital that that gives health care in a way that's consistent with Catholic belief if it comes into conflict with our contested interpretation of what equality means you cannot have the prestige of owning a major fast food chain and running a major fast food chain rapidly becoming the third largest in the country. By volume and hold to these beliefs, which are deemed abberant and effectively deviant. Now, one of the problems. I think we're going to face at least people like David I who who who have very publicly dented with our churches, and and sign up to the doctrines of our church is that the constitution and the popular understanding of it for you know, forbids the establishment of religion. However, it does not forbid because it never foresaw. The it does not forbid the establishment of gala -tarian ISM. It does not forbid the establishment of feminism. It does not forbid these of all these other doctrine, moral doctrines and political reform movements that are contested that. Are not provable that kind of put forward a metaphysics of their own in a way, those things liberals feel no compunction. They don't feel like I am overriding someone's rights when I when we do this. When we chase out these institutions from the public square or redefine their mission in in our terms. And so it's going to be difficult for conservatives. I think to make the argument we've we have good so far we have very good supreme court case law, and I think that will hold up for a time. But you see some of these lower court rulings and think okay, if some of the lower court rulings that are going against us or if the culture's so far against us that apple the biggest company in the world comes down like a ton of bricks on on a state that wants to religious freedom restoration act. I I mean, I think we have to think culturally in strategically as well as legally in these cases, David bonds in what? What do these do you? What is social conservatives do especially if they're views on sexual morality, which are are now. Increasingly in the hate say it in the mainstream culture defined as inherently hateful the views that Brock Obama had about twenty minutes ago. And that now have become hateful. They didn't go. You know? That's the thing is he went from saying, he believe marriage, marriages one man one woman saying volved on the issue. And that's obviously now where the entire left is. But it isn't that for those of us who hold socially traditional conservative views. And that was one case Michael where you could be talking to either David about us, holding views of our church these issues. Isn't that? Now, we're on the other side of it politically. But immediately went to hateful, and and just completely not to be tolerated. And the thing is, but one example is all over corporate America. There isn't a fortune one hundred company could think of that isn't more or less in the same boat. I spent many years as a managing director at Morgan Stanley, the cultural Marxism was off the charts, and and things like chick, filet get into the press, and it and they shine a light on it. As sense. You could argue from my perspective. It's a good thing. Because I don't think very many people understand the severity of what we're up against. And they're still kind of understandable tendency to want to nor the culture war. So yeah, my my view not only as a Christian, but as a conservative engaged in the public square there isn't any need to to back down. I think that compassion. And softness intact and all those things are always important from a wisdom standpoint. But as far as right and wrong of the issues. I think it's perfectly appropriate for people to be forward in their views on it. But see in this case, and it was one of the real important things. I believe in your article rich. They're not Chick-fil-A is not. We're not talking about them. Not hiring gay people are discriminating policies or benefits or some kind of issue like that. And for the most part when he gets into Christian colleges on their hiring. They've tried pushing that issue I still think that dam breaks at some point. But we've held the line there, you know. But like as far as in a Chick-fil-A, they're they're not having even accused of any discriminatory hiring practices. So this is rank cultural Marxism, and I honestly believe that there is still a significant amount of people that would have a more left-leaning view on the issue that would not support this discrimination Chick-fil-A, so David French exit question to you the renewed campaign against Chick-fil-A will have what effect on negative effect on the restaurant chain, substantial negligible. No. I'm gonna cheat for minute and respond to something David said, and then I answer I think this is a really this is one of the most important cultural points, and this is one of the most culture important cultural questions for the next quarter century of American life is how do we respond to what rod Dreher calls woke capitalism. It is this this. Essentially, the commandeering of the mechanisms in the power of corporate America to push very specific kind of social and cultural agenda, and I think that one of the things that Christians are going to have to do for lack of a better term is man up because I think what's happening is you have an awful lot of Christians who've caught in used to the notion that have gotten used to sort of keeping their head down and staying quiet. And then when you keep your head down, and I'm not talking about engage in insure your views in any way, that's anything other than loving, gracious, respectful. But. Christians need to need to be known in their institutions that they need. They need to be known in the sense that they need the institutions need to know, they exist because it will right now, we have a problem, and I and I get comments, and I get to Twitter Deums and emails all the time from people, and they say, I'm at Google or I'm at Facebook, or I met, you know, Netflix or this major banker that major Bank, and I just don't say a word, and I think that that's got to stop because one of the things that it does is it creates an impression that there is no real internal opposition in that all reasonable right thinking people agree with this progressive agenda, and if the person right next to someone in a cubicle or in the boardroom or in the meeting raises their hand and says, no I disagree. And I've been in that position been in that position in big law and have been in that position when I was. Teaching it at Cornell law school, it is difficult. It is difficult. But you might be surprised at the results when you actually raise your hand and say something so that's my jumping off by soapbox. And then the to answer your question as far as Chick-fil-A, the health Chick-fil-A of business if past practice is any repairs performances any predictor future results, which I know David bonds, and I should never ever say. It's gonna help. And dotty on the question of the business stuff. It's going to be nil unless a court litigation goes away that we don't expect currently given the precedence of the the courts on religious liberty and non-discrimination in contracting. I'm gonna cheat to and just add that I think David's exactly right on how Christian should act within these corporations those are outside of it who are in positions like the day, David French and myself, I think we need to be professional and aggressive. I mean, apple has done more to protest religious freedom in Indiana than it's done to champion religious liberty in China. I mean, affectively Tim cook is promoting the Chinese communist view religious, Reggie regulation. And he needs to be called out in exactly those terms, and we need to do that across the culture. And across corporate America, we need we need to just pointed out that this. This is an attempt to do. I I'm not as big on the term, cultural Marxism, but it is Soviet like in its in its jealousy and hatred of civic institutions that define their own aims, David. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna Inver something David French said that I know he would agree with he's exactly right people in these corporate positions, whether they'd be kinda mid level poise or senior level people have to have more courage. But I do think David also implies that those people are themselves indispensable in their companies. See the more talent and gravitas. They have and more presence that we as conservatives and believers able to stab wish in vocational America. The more coverage we will have to resist these efforts as far as the answer to the question. It will help Chick-fil-A, but I do not just say that as economic. Answer, but feel Adriana one. Because I think that God will bless them. Keep in mind. This is a restaurant than is only open six seven of the time still just to make more about that all the rest, so sometimes obedience works, but the real winner and all of this Donald Trump's reelection efforts. So I say nil the because. Chick-fil-a is backed off, you know, they they. When this first happened in two thousand twelve they said, okay, forget it. We're not we're not funding in any way, any politically engaged socially, conservative groups or pronouncing on gay marriage anymore, and they actually this latest controversy. They cut off this home in in Georgia, and they're big business there. That's the right there about making making money. But so the what's most disturbing here is not what will happen to Chick-fil-A. It's just the broader trend that will grind other people with with fewer means underfoot. So one last thing let's get to just really quickly exit question style. Which is the ouster of cure Ston. Nielsen at DHS go to eat. I Michael Brennan, Tori, the new s secretarial make a positive impact in US policy at the border. Yes. Or no. No because the only solutions at the border legislative and that personal have no power to move congress. No. Because of what he just said French. No because every syllable of NBD's statement was correct say, yes. Because. Minor difference minor difference. But apparently the the beef with Nielsen besides just Trump hating her because the numbers are going higher at the border is the bureaucracy. Particularly USCS IS was not doing enough. Internally in terms of regulation, especially at these credible. Fear interviews there the first process for step in the asylum process. Ninety percent of of the migrants from Central America passed the credible. Fear interview really fixing that does require congress. But the things you can do at the margin doesn't have to be ninety percent. And there are other regulations coming out of DHS. They want to challenge this Florez settlement. They wanna make it alive issue. Again. They wanna regulation to come out that someone will challenge to get it back in the courts things like that that that haven't happened. So I think the next day sexual very focused on these things they obviously don't end the border crisis. But they'll make a positive difference at the margin. So before we go, let's hit a few other things. David french. You're a fan of show billions. Yes. Huge fan of the show billions. It's I'm going to say it's not going to be in the pantheon. Sort of this platinum age of television of the best shows ever like breaking bad or? Game of thrones. But it is it has sheer fun. And it's essentially the story it started off as the story of the confrontation between this hedge fund billionaire, and this the US attorney in the southern district of New York. And it it is over the top. It's often hilarious. It's incredibly it's incredibly compelling television. It is just in this. And the reason why I the reason why I picked it is just this past Sunday was one of the best episodes. I've seen of the show's entire run. It was remarkable. And as the thing I like about it is you've talked to folks who are sort of in that hedge funds curies industry, and they watch it constantly you talked to people who are in the US attorney's offices. They watch it constantly, and I also found out another community of people watches it constantly, and that's NBA basketball players Levitt. And as do hip hop stars. Love bill. Millions. It's it's kinda got this like subculture following in multiple industries and check it out start with season. One episode one like all premium cable shows, it's almost as if the first episode of any new season of urge news series of premium cable show is designed to be the most shocking possible episode, but hanging there after that the first fifteen minutes, and you won't regret it, Andy or sons in trucks. Yeah. So my two year old son is still developing vocabulary. And basically his favorite word is truck and his second favorite word is fire truck. But it's just a great way though. I mean, he's forces to rewatch an hour long video on YouTube about fire trucks, a couple of times, they get the tea and truck it's not like Huck no-no gets a t in truck, but he doesn't he doesn't quite get the are and fire so file truck. But in a weird way, it's great because a two year old even two year old expands your world. I mean, we were walking around town on these nice, warm evenings. And my son just demands to visit the the fire station, and then two blocks later, the volunteer fire station and the local firemen are happy to let this to your boy run in and stand up stand on the trucks at great said David Johnson NCW tournament. It really was a wonderful tournament. It was awful out of fun. I in mystify someone who I hold regard. I do David French some stuff that he's I I thought he was joking that kind of dug deeper and he. He poked back, and I ROY was serious and I had to stop conversation because I didn't want to use my regard for him. But I mean there really is nothing in sports like March madness the college tournament and just wonderful wonderful fund. Right. It was so yeah, I've been thinking a lot about David being wrong about this and trying to figure out just how and I think maybe the analogy would make is like NHL hockey, obviously superior to Olympic hockey, certainly Olympic hockey when was really Olympic hockey, and it was amateurs at least except for the Soviets but Olympic hockey, still greater spectacle. You know, at least for you know, three weeks, or whatever it is. And that's sort of the analogy would make with with NCWA basketball. Do you want to respond, David? Yeah. I mean, March March madness is a nice gimmick. For. Brilliant brilliant, little gimmick. For for four weeks. People. Never tune into college basketball have a exciting ride with some up sets in watch college students, go insane and go crazy. It's kind of fun. But you know, the reality of college basketball is on the Dacian. Well, yes. Actually. Yes, I wasn't even going to go there. It's so funny to me that that conservatives defend the it's really interesting. On just going by sort of the way, the demographics of it. All breakout. Conservatives usually fiercely defend the CWA, and progressives fiercely defend the NBA just as a general rule, yet one of them has capitalist and the other one is just fundamentally exploitive and extremely woke which is the NC double A. And and you know, so I wasn't even the go there. But I'm with you on that. I as a matter of fact, I completely totally support Nike paying the college players and their families. What is capitalist about the licensed cartel called the National Basketball Association will start a team up and and start competing with NBA team. You can't you can start a professional basketball team and start competing with the NBA as many people have tried to do as the did. And did it. So successfully that the NBA merged with it. But the NC double A. I mean what you're watching. There is the NC double A reaping billions of dollars in revenue off of this this gimmick tournament, and and then vacuuming it up into this extraordinary woke bureaucracy of the NC double A and the member schools, and you know, the funny thing is especially like when you're in the SEC, see rich. You've got me started. I really did. You know, the funny thing is like just I love college football. I can't help it. I grew up in the south ledge full of college football where there's no exploitation in college football. No, no there is there is, but I was just going to say, it's so. Funny. If you go to an SEC football game, you would think that the member institutions of the southeastern conference where the most hashtag merica patriotic institutions in the world based to the way that with the way that the game day rituals, the anthem and the flyovers and all this and all those millions and millions of dollars pouring into the bluest woke cast parts of the state. And and that's what the CW is doing and conservatives are like, yeah. So I just I don't know bad basketball bad institution except last night's game was good. So I'm not a huge music. I, but I've been reading up on the history of the the blues something I've been working on and just just looking back to the origins of the blues in these work songs in the fields or on the trains, and these hollers that on that. Workers slaves and others. Said sunk to themselves or to others or or just keep time in the fields or at work. And they're just on believable. There's this musicologist and folklorist John Lomax that recorded some of these work songs and hollers in the mid thirties and library, congress has available. And if you just listen to them, you just they pull your heartstrings and on believable way. It remind me of a line that Bill Buckley said of Whittaker chambers, Whittaker chambers voice being magnificent, tone, speaking to our time from the center of sorrow from the center of the earth. So before we move on. Let's get our editor's picks. In before we land this plane, m B? What's your pick? Mine is John O'Sullivan who wrote this week on Brexit things that pieces, titled if Brexit fails sodas Britain Jonah disagreed about maze. Withdrawal. I've been for it, and he is against it. But this column, and basically a lot of John's writing is just a great case for for his way of looking at British politics, which is a bit deeper than mine. Even though I've I've been obsessively following this. He is looking at larger trends that are transforming the Tory and labour party and he's essential. David French with your pick. This. The San Francisco is slowly committing suicide piece that has been just. So widely read justifiably over the last couple of days at national review. And it is you know, it is it is really tapping into something that I think is is critically important in that is the fate of our major cities as they are both becoming sort of like this exclusive playground of the of the rich the trans the international rich one of the statistics in there. That was so interesting to me was the rent average rent for a one bedroom apartment in San Francisco is approaching about four thousand dollars a month. So you have these cities that are simultaneously mind bogglingly prosperous in also decaying and fundamental ways. As was laid out in the article and Jack Fowler had followed up with something very similar about Seattle in the corner. That was also really compelling, and I you know, I think that this is a cat part of the frustration that we see with a lot. Younger voters right now that lot of us who don't live in these cities. Find puzzling is it is really expensive and hard to live in these places unless you're just ridiculously wealthy and that does create a degree. I think of justifiable frustration. They would bouncing. Yeah. Mine kind of ties in a little bit today. But it's Kevin Williamson's new article this up it's complicated, and it kind of delves into the messy -ness of government solutions. And when you get past the rhetoric of things the complexity that exists in solving various issues, like affordable housing, which is a great example of one that oftentimes more government sets out to do the worst. They make it. But as is typical of Kevin this is a really really good piece. So my pick is Matt Continente cover story in the new issue on the thought of Charles Krauthammer, Matt has really made himself one of the foremost historic. Hinz and explicatives of conservatism as a as a flossy and body of thought, and he delved into Charles's work in and thought in it a really valuable way to five thousand word essay. But well worth your time. So that's it for us. Even listening to national review podcast. Rebroadcast re transmission or account of this game without the express written permission of national. You magazine is strictly prohibited podcast has been produced by the incomparable, Sarah. Should he makes it sound better than we deserve? Thank you. David french. Thank you, Michael Brennan dorey, author of the forthcoming my father left me Ireland. And thank you, David Bonderman, author of the book out right now. Literally right now the case for dividend growth. Please check it out and thanked especially to all of you for listening. We are the editors wa who.

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