10 New Rules for Big Career Changes (The Graduation Episode) w/ Jordan Harbinger
Hey, listeners, it's read inviting you to our first ever masters scale live show happening in Boston on July twenty third. I'll be interviewing a really well known founder live on stage and will develop a theory about scale together at rocket ship. Speed were grateful to our sponsor thought exchange for helping to make it possible thought exchange helps leaders crowdsource answers to questions in real time. Tickets are on sale right now. Go to mashes scale dot com slash live to buy your tickets. See you in Boston. He listeners, it's read which sharing with you today. The graduation episode in honor of all our recent grads and anyone navigating a big life decision on masters of scale. We talk a lot about how businesses grow, but we also talk about how people grow, how key decisions shape, your future, and how setbacks can set you up for future success. This special episode is hosted by Jordan harbinger Jordan's podcast. The Jordan harbored show, distills wisdom from brilliant people, and helps listeners live, what they've learned for this show. Jordan chose clips from masters of scale that capture unexpected life lessons then he interviewed me about what we can learn from them. If you're navigating a big life decision. This episode is. Is for you. And with that I handed off to Jordan. Thanks, read, and welcome all to the graduation episode, where we'll share some advice to help you navigate choices in your career. Let me be honest. I find that a lot of conventional advice is pretty unhelpful. So in this episode we explore ten rules, based on the principles that really helped the guests on the show succeed for each new rule will hear one of the best stories from matches of scale, and then I'll dive deeper with read to get his thoughts. Okay. So let's start with those rules rule. One. Follow your passions, but be real follow your passions is the most cliche advice you can get or give at the same time. It is true that a lot of successful people found a way to play into something. They'd always been passionate about Redon. I will talk about how to tell the difference after this clip from masters of scale in this clip read shares, a story from Spotify founder, Daniel X childhood in Sweden one that shows his early passion for both music and technology. It's fair to say we Sweden thank for Daniels lifelong love affair with music it started with his family. It's one of those weird families like a normal families, he would get a college degree, and that would be like the important thing, not really in our family. In fact, no-one had a college degree, but having a music education was super important, but his country made sure that no child left music behind in, in Sweden, where I grew up. There's actually free music education, which, I think explains a lot about how music is so big in that country. And why it's such a big export for us as well. You get taken to this place when you're about four or five years old, and you walk around, and you get the sample, every instruments, you can imagine. So I walked around and I saw people playing piano. I saw people doing the flutes. I saw people to all sorts of things the sitter and this is the. Doc in spirit. And in one of the rooms was this person was planned at drums, and I saw that. And I was like holy shit. This is amazing. I really wanna play the drums, five year old Daniel was blown away by the possibilities, but there was one inescapable reality. My parents because I wasn't really that into music at that time, nor did I really wanna do it. They said you can pick any instrument, you want said, I wanted to play drums, this, well, any instrument, you want, but the drums, because we were living in an apartment, and we didn't wanna get evicted. Daniel turned to cool older cousin. For advice. He had told me that I should pick the tar because if I picked the guitar could actually have a shot with the girls, and as a five year old, I didn't know what have shot with the girls actually meant I thought he was a pretty cool guy. So I ended up playing guitar and that's the story of how I started picking up the guitar. And so, when did you start picking up programming, and then what was there any connection between music and programming? At that time now it wasn't really any connection between the two. There was a cease sixty four sixty four is also known. As the Commodore sixty four it was an eight bit home computer popular in the nineteen eighties with a cassette. Yes. With the cassettes did. And then one day, the cassette broke the actual player broke down. So I started deconstructing the player and figured out how to fix next time the computer broke down. I took it apart, and then put it back together again and fixed it got a bit overconfidence. So I asked someone who was an engineer. What's the hardest thing to learn on the person so well C plus plus is probably the hardest thing to learn C, plus plus is a computer programming language. It is indeed, one of the hardest things to learn. So by age nine I thought, hey, I'm gonna learn how to program C plus plus and about forty pages of code later. I could construct the mouse cursor the moved around which felt like a lot of work for something relatively simple. Daniel story is cool, because he's a great example of someone who didn't have a lot of advantages, but made his own way. But there's also a danger in trying to emulate it. I brought this up with read one issue that I might take with this advice though is he mentions? He says something akin to follow your passion. It's not quite that simplified. But I find that to be often bad advice because we hear it from successful people. But this is kind of survivor bias where they're successful. They've got a big platform because somebody Mark Cuban tweeted, it or something, right? Not to put the put him on blast. I making that up. But there are also a minority of people, we don't hear from all of these entrepreneurs or would be on preneurs or creators, that followed their passion, straight into their mom's basement never to be seen, again, essentially, so where do you stand on all this? So my very first book was called the startup of you and part of what I was trying to do is to give people. How to say, yes, your passions important, but you should be paying attention to market realities. You should say, what are the opportunities look? Like what is competition? Look like do I have a plan for getting air Do have the resources for getting there? So the oh, follow my passions and my passions will lead me to an amazing career lots of people don't work out in the video gaming industry. Lots of people don't work out in Hollywood. Lots of people don't work. Like, there's this these pools, where people get exposed them when they're in high school or college or younger, and they go, that's what I want to be. And you're like, actually, you know the there's millions of go into it, and there's tens or hundreds where it works out. And you have to understand that reality these things. And so I think it's important to a dentist your passions. It's important to kind of figure out all right, which passions are the things that would really trigger it, but also to be what's the best match for me to what the opportunity landscape looks like how do you evaluate that landscape? So. So first part is a your network and what people mostly mistake is, I think, well, if I can get to the head of this record label or something else that would win for me on this question usually, we don't have access to that, usually the, the question is, well, I have a, you know, I have some family. I have some friends, I have some people, the friends, no hasn't people a family knows that's my network. Yeah. But would you do is you? Well, who the smartest people that know me that may have a good sense of this, that may be able to connect me with someone that is interesting that could, then give me some sense, where he can go, okay? Is this a good idea where I have enough of unique edge, I could pick up so in that time I could I could run an experiment with it, and the questions to ask network. So I it's not just ask the people, you know, but ask them if they know someone who wants to second is the questions you ask them. What's wrong with this idea? Not do you like this idea? Right. Because they'll go, yes. I do you, you seem nice. To be supportive of. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. Now. What could go wrong? Right. What if this fails, why would it fail? Right. Right. So you're getting a sense of that, because you go. Okay. I think I can navigate that stuff. So network. One key component. Another one is, and this is, again, from my book star of you. I have this framework called ABC planning, which is your plan a, you have plans be, which is how to think about, like, well, if a is not working on maybe we'll work, or maybe would be a different path or coming, and then you have a z plan, which is, is not working at all. What's my lifeboat plan? I'm going to road to a different set of planet. Glam Bs, so having that as a planning framework, and if you can build that planning framework around your particular idea, maybe you're passionate. So okay, I'm, I'm respecting the fact I'm going to change. I'm going to change the world's gonna change. I'm gonna learn new things. I'm gonna figure out. Oh, yeah. Three thousand people who in better positions, have this music idea that I do. And this isn't going to work. I need to. Change. Then you can keep moving and you can keep playing for so that having a flexible planning framework, that accounts for your changes, your changes in your knowledge, changes in the way, the world, the market is working all really critical that's really solid advice. Thank you. We'll be back with the next rule after a quick break. It was your typical cold rainy, Detroit, early spring day where you can tell it doesn't know whether it wants to stay in winter or actually be spring, so we pulled down a side street. That's Jen garb ach from Capital One. She pulled down that tucked away industrial side street in Detroit to visit an entrepreneur was kind of an old brick building nondescript had no idea really what I was walking into. And then when you go in the doors and you see what he has built on the inside it tells a completely different story. The gritty exterior gives way to sparkling white walls, and twenty-foot factory ceilings, the company happy, how he's dog treats the story, a turnaround from the great recession and hard hit Detroit from the outside. It's an unqualified win. But success stories often feel different on the inside and happy, how he's president and co founder David co Jato face. The classic. Entrepreneurial challenge. He had sold product faster than his team could deliver, you have that moment as a business owner, re kind of pause and have the heart palpitation and say, whoa, how am I gonna go fulfil on all of those orders right now this David deliver for his customers? We'll hear that story a bit later in the show. It's all part of capital one's summer celebration. A wag of the tail to business owners and their success stories. So let's move onto the next rule role sue. Make decisions based on facts. But also on how you feel big life. Decisions are tough. The stakes are high, and it's just not possible to see the future and know how things will turn out. Most people will tell you one of two things to be objective, and data driven or to just follow your heart. But the best way to make decisions is actually a little bit of both read calls this informed intuition, and our next clip brings this to life, it's with Marissa Mayer Melissa is famous for being a very influential twentieth employees at Google and later, the CEO of Yahoo. She's also famous for making decisions based on a ton of data in the story you're about to hear Melissa is still in college, and she's agonizing over a decision. She doesn't know how to make. Russell is still a college student, and Google was one of the thousand teeny Silicon Valley, startups competing for talent due to a line. Dozens relationship in a bad bowl of pasta. I was in my dorm room on a Friday night told myself if anyone else, meals you what another job like you, you just have to pick you have thirteen good offers. Like you just have to pick one. Just that moment another Email popped up on scream. The subject line was just three words work at Google. He came in late on this Friday night and said, like work at Google, and I remember looking out and being like this bowl of pasta is so bad, and I am so pathetic. Probably ninety bad pasta. Remember this is nine hundred ninety nine the peak of the dot com. Bubble Stanford grad students were showered with offers from tech. Recruiters Rhys assumed she was just being spammed. She hit the leat, or at least she meant to. But I actually hit the space bar, which in my Email reader program opened the message. So I looked back up, and it was open. And I realized it was actually an Email from our common gar, another early, Google or who said, you know, I've been talking to different professors at Stanford about who I should be talking to graduating, your name came up, so law common gar, the Google who sent that Email was Google employee number nine for those keeping count. He's now, senior vice president of you U2.. Now Mercer had another offer fourteen to choose from. It's the kind of problem. Most new grads wish they had, how did she decide methodically listed help from Andre veneer, a fellow Stanford student, who's now VPN oath to his apartment in San Francisco, and said, okay, I've got all these offer letters, we pulled all the values for all of the different columns off of these offer letter. So, you know salaries stock where it was career. Trajectory promotion ability, happiness, quotients the drop charts and plotted graphs. They buried their heads in the numbers after six hours. Turning data, Mercer looked up to see the sun had set her head was spinning, and she felt no closer to a decision Ave. Just loves were camped homes like that turn was like, well, that's been really fun. And he's like, you know, thank you so much for involving. And as I was like, like I've made a decision. This hasn't been bothering me at all really overwhelmed. So he's like, go to bed sleep on it. The first thing you think of tomorrow morning, whether you can articulate it or not. That's the right decision, and so that is high. They picked Google. I went to sleep woke up the next morning and I just wanted to work at Google for a lot of the reasons I could articulated them for a bunch of other reasons that were harder to articulate the fact that I felt like the smartest people were there and I felt really unprepared to try and do what they wanted to do overall as a company, right? They were really am bishops and for all those reasons I picked Melissa is well known for her intense use of data when she makes decisions indeed, it has been the target of much criticism would people overlook is that she's not making choices based solely on the data. She collects each table of data. She bills is like a diving board the higher. She built it. Why? The view and the bigger, the splash when she jumps. But whether she actually takes that dive or not, that's still based on intuition. I liked to be really data driven by ignores, sort of the human instinct, element. I bet which, you know, for me my process, a lot of times roll around in the data, I get to know and really understand it really well, and then make a gut based call which is often supported by data and a lot of hard to articulate factors as well informed. Intuition, is actually think a good way of making this. Yes. So Marissa took the plunge and became Google employee number twenty. Not a bad pick, given her career trajectory. But is there such a thing as too much data? We hear about analysis paralysis and things like that. How do we strike a balance so there is almost always too much data? And part of what you have to think about is, what are the key things that would change my decision, not lemme integrate all of the information because then you get overwhelmed with? And by the way, that overwhelming can actually make you have bad decisions, all share, like, for example, one of the frameworks that I tend to utilize a lot, which is you say okay, this is the first priority. The second part that is third party. So frequently what I'll do is a of make this decision just on first priority. Not looking at second, or third, like, what would the situation be if it was just on the first birdie, because by the way, then it's only the data around that it's only the things around that. And you say, well, this would be the decision, then you go. Okay. Well, why would I allow that to change for any of the other priorities? If that's really the driving priority and can actually this Asian. I should tune it a little bit to respect these other interests these other goals these other needs. But that should be what I'm what I'm going to do. And that's one of the ways to simplify the set of data because you go, what is the really, really key thing. The only thing that I find personally useful about doing the process that that is the exhaustive, like here. I did the entire table. I did the entire spreadsheet and some people who are deeply smart analytic like Mercer really make that work. Well, but for me, I'm just looking the oh, this is the one question that matters. And once I figured that question that's the decision and that's it. Right. And so, I think that's important. The other thing that is important is, how do you set your goals, the right way in terms of how you value at the data within it. And I find that people make very commonly one of two mistakes, it's almost like the Goldilocks mistake and goal setting. So you go, what's my next step? It's like what's my passion? What's my next step? I should only about you wait on the next step. And you're like, well, but actually. You have this whole career and whole life in front of you evaluate only on the next step you're going to have a problem now. And then they go I want to be a hedge fund manager like this is the thing. I want to do this is the thing is, is like, you know, fifteen years out and, you know, well don't you think you're gonna learn some things. So you think you might change. Don't you think you're wrecking? You might be going on this path, and realize you have this other great opportunity. So saying that's the only thing. So frequently what I do as I say. The way decision is, I think it was a two step decision process. But you go integrate into this step, what is my changing landscape? A possibility on the second step not where I'm gonna be twenty years from now. But, like, how does that landscape change in a way that's really good for me? It's a good fit for my skills. A good fit for my passions. A good fit for what the market needs and opportunities and do that. So you integrate those two now when you're only doing that the amount of data is a much more compact, Senate, Senator. Yeah, interesting Mirasol so mentioned. Informed, intuition, and I'm wondering how do we know? And we're informing our intuition with data versus just like procrastinating, because there's more data over there. Maybe there's something in there that will inform my intuition, aka never pulling the trigger on anything. Well, those additional thing I can say, which is one of the things I learned from startups is, when I'm operating what I think, is quick time when I'm confronted with the decision. I said, what would my decision right now be if I had to make the decision right now? I don't get any more data this date, I have this is what the decision would be then because I go, okay. What are the key things that might change my decision? So I need to talk to Jordan, I need to talk to, you know, Sarah, I need to talk to, or I need to find out if this is true or not right like that. This thing, great do I have the timeframe and the and the ability and the cost of go do those things. Okay. Let me go get those things. And then in for. From this decision. Now, some of us have a tendency to agonize over decisions and over think things we ask ourselves will this job fulfill me for the rest of my life? When we should ask, will this job get me to the next level? That's right for me. Read has a great way of talking about this, and that leads us to our next rule rule three. Build your network. It's not just for networking. Listen, this is read show and read founded linked in. He's all about building your network, but not for the reasons you might think I decided not to run a clip for this one. I just asked read about it because this is something I also advise people all the time every big win, I've ever had has come from reaching out and connecting with other people. Every benefit that I've ever had that big has come from reaching out and connecting with people and people say, well, I work at a school. So I don't I don't need this or well, I'm not going to leave my job. I worked for the government. I don't need networking. What do you think of that? When people say things like that. Well, so I think we live in a network age. So I actually think everyone needs a network sure. Whether or not you're a high school student or not. You're massively successful CEO the whole range needed. It affects what you, learn. Right. Because what she paying attention to what should you considerations be about how the world's changing about what kind of opportunities and threats and possibilities, actually all look like the best place that comes from his your network. Yes, you can Google search. And yes, you can read a lot, and that's nice to do too. But the network helps you learn and like the clearest way, you can say, this is that most people when they go through the university, experience and go through college experience, say, look, you learn a bunch of. Classes? You learned a bunch of professors, but action fact for almost everyone the most you learn from your peers from the students around you rather that, and that continues through life. And that's what your network is. Yeah, it's really true. I remember having smart roommates because which was lucky because it wasn't certainly wasn't me going. I need smart roommates. It was guys going. Hey, you should live in our house, and it was a bunch of go-getter gun guys. And I thought these guys taught me how to study they taught me about world events. They taught me how to pay attention to the right kind of news. I didn't know things like some new sources are biased. It's, you know, nineteen think about that stuff, but I do vaguely also remember skull shapes of Australopithecus scenes. It's just been less useful in terms of my, my daily life. Other people, and this is more of your alley. People will say, well, my idea, my work is so good. I wanted to speak for itself. So I don't need to make connections when I go to a VC they'll go. Wow. This ideas amazing. I don't need to network. So again, it's pupil. People frequently have false, two columns, that's great to have great work. It's great to have an amazing set of stuff that you've done. That's awesome. And yes, she should have that. But one of the vice had most often give entrepreneurs as don't just work on the product work on your go to market because the oh, I build this thing in a corner. No one sees it, and maybe the best thing ever. But no one sees it. So it's never used. That's the problem on the entrepreneurship side, the same parallels true for individuals, which is you may have done all this great work. But the fact that how what's awareness of like, what's other people saying about it, what's the way that you present it? What's the way that people can understand it and get to know it because by the way, it's a huge world. It's eight billion people. How do you stand out against the billion people? In fact, that's kind of challenging. And now onto the net rule roof. Ask for advice, but no one to ignore it. Let's face it. There's a lot of advice out there and it's not all equal. There's good advice. Bad advice, loaded advice. How do you know which is which let's hear three stories from masters of scale and then talk about it with read. The first clip comes from Linda Rotenburg. She founded endeavor, a hugely influential organization, that's support entrepreneurs internationally. It's been going for twenty years now, but it had to start somewhere. She and her co founder came up with the idea at her parents kitchen table. And it almost died there. And we actually came to my parents kitchen table to ride on an Afghan the business plan for endeavor. My parents freaked out or you trying to give me a hard hat in fat. My parents overheard us plotting this global organization that was going to support high growth entrepreneurs and emerging markets. And my mother looked at my father like you've got to stop this. And my dad, gently came over and reminded me that I needed to be financially independent, I didn't have anything to fall back on, and this didn't sound like job security, and I refer to this as my kitchen table moment, which I think a lot of entrepreneurs face, which is, it's really scary to tell your family that you're going to do something unconventional, and you have to make this choice to do what safe and expected or do I venture into the unknown. Linda was convinced that high impact entrepreneurs can be found anywhere. And we might hear from them more often if only they could push through their own kitchen table moment to me, the biggest problem is the best ideas, don't die in the marketplace, or in the laboratory the die in the shower because people don't even give themselves permission to walk out of the shower and write it on napkin and take it into the world because they're afraid of what others are going to think about. And they're afraid that people are going to say, well, this is just a crazy idea. So Linda, clearly got some unhelpful advice. She decided to ignore and good honor for that. But sometimes we internalize that unhelpful advice. And we need a shot of good advice to break us free. That's what you'll hear in this next clip. With Danny Meyer, the famous chef and restaurant tour Danny own half a dozen legendary New York restaurants, before he launched shake shack, which is now a national chain in the US in this story, Danny shares the jobs and life decisions. He stumbled through before, realizing his true passion. I had spent three or four years, selling electron IX, tags stopped shoplifters. Which was basically, my ticket to living in New York and turned out, it was a really good salesman. I was completely ignorant to my own burning passion. That's Danny Meyer, recounting, his former life, as a crimefighter of swords, and the rough and tumble of early eighties Gotham. And like many troubled heroes, he was haunted by his past and uncertain of his future. I decided I should opt towards getting a law degree after months of grueling study. He was finally ready to sit the test, though. It set him on course for a comfortable life in law. The night before I took my LSAT's I had dinner with my aunt, and uncle and my grandmother, talion restaurant here in New York City. I was in a foul mood, and my uncle turned to me, and he said, what the hills eating you anyway. And I said, well, I gotta take my illicit tomorrow. And he said, well, Duff you want to be a lawyer. Of course. You're gonna take. SAT's and I said something really stupid to him at that point, which changed my entire life, which was I don't really want to be a lawyer. And he got furious with me. He said, do you not realize that you're going to be dead forever? And I said, what do you mean? He said, do you not realize that relative to how long you're going to be debt? You're going to be alive for about a minute. Why in the world would you do something that you don't want to do? And I said, I don't know what else I would do. He said, you gotta be kidding me. All of ever heard you talk about his restaurants, your whole life. I, I actually said at that point, we'll go eaten restaurants for their life, and he says, no, you foolish should open a restaurant. And it just it's not something that people were doing in the nineteen eighties. You just didn't do it. You just didn't do it. That phrase is the precursor of many, a great entrepreneurial story because many founders have to go up against the kind of received wisdom that says you just don't do certain things. And if they're lucky that weary sounding you just did. Didn't do it becomes vibrant. I've got to go do it. Everyone could use like Danny Meyer's, and honestly, that's what I try to do on my own show. I asked people to think about the kind of advice, they'd give to a nephew or niece, but this next clip is about a different kind of advice. The kind of advice you can get from really great honest partner. Your wife, your husband, your, sibling, your best friend in this clip. We hear from Kevin system, the founder of Instagram he was featured in the masters of scale episode, keep it simple while scaling big. And the thing you need to understand, before listening to this clip. Is this, what set Instagram apart, right? From the start was its filters, which were dead easy to use, and which made your bad photos, look good like an stall GIC polaroid from the seventies or an album cover from the eighties. The thing is Kevin didn't come up with the idea for filters. His wife did read tells the story. We rented all over him in a bed and breakfast. And I was working on bourbon at the time, and we were pivoting to photos, but she was like, I don't think I'm going to ever use this app like why not, she's like, well, my photos aren't good. And I was like, well, that's finally you can post photos it will be good. And she goes, well, they're not as good as your friend. Greg's I was like, well, Greg filters all his photos, and she looks inches like, well, you should add filters, then as like I you're right. I shouldn't have filters I hear stories like Kevin Nicole's all the time. Entrepreneurs take note, an honest partner is always your best source of ideas. Kevin was smart enough to listen. I went back to the bed and breakfast room, and with a dialup connection, Mexico of all places I was looking up, code on how to change colors and photos, and I made the first filter there on the spot. It's still in the app called expo two expo two was one of the eleven original filters that in. Instagram launched with each of the distinctive filters out of the kind of blurred, edges, color wash and lightly that gave even mediocre photos, a sense of style. Gic meaning and when Instagram launched there are a lot of mediocre photos foam cameras were still primitive. Any person we gave it to their eyes lit up because they were like all like my photos, seem so much better now. And that was the moment when we realized we think we have something. Redon. I launched our discussion of this clip by examining, the importance of unflinching honesty between partners. So an honest partner is almost always the best source of ideas, or, or often the best source of ideas. Why do you think this is the case? We'll lose lots of reasons. So one is they have a certain amount of opportunity, so they don't have their own ego as invested in on this brilliant as the exact right thing, etc. So they can they can both see the potential strengths and the weaknesses in a clear way second is that they have an investment in trying to help you so they can say, look, I'm on trying to help you get to the better place, whether it's doubled down or change or pivot and the third is they have a communications channel that you trust trust this person. You trust their interesting you so that partner. And by the way, we this, like, part of the meaning of life is seek out those people isn't just your spouse, etc. But it's your friends, your allies seeking. That out is super critical, and those people that it's more than gold. It's more than diamonds. It's more than platinum. Those are the people that not only give meaning to your life, but also help you stare. How do you find those people? Of course, it's a matter of filtering. I would imagine you meet one hundred people in one of them turns out to be a great board member for your personal life. Do you have any specific ways where you go odd? This person is really, I really want to spend more time with them. They are sharp. I is lots of people have interesting perspectives and interesting experience at various different ways. And the dimension could be knowledge of the world, the knowledge of an industry knowledge of what's going on here locally their own networks of who the people they know the kinds of things that like there's just lots and lots of knowledge in different things. And so the first thing is realized that, you know, the vast majority of people have something of value, and like figuring out what that is. Now that doesn't mean that everything's about. So, like, for example, I, meet a great artist and I go, oh, this person really under. Stands like how we order, our perceptions and they're the person, I will ask about that. I wouldn't go ask them about investment and company, they would know it wouldn't be useful. It's kind of puts them in an awkward spot, and so forth. So you have a whole massive network of potentially advisers that it's good to map to then what happens when you say. Well, who the people that are the best kind of inner circle guides for you with those people who are generally speaking somewhat balance in their own selves? So they when they're giving you advice, they actually see you in giving advice, don't go. Well, if I was in your shoes, I would want to put your not my shoes. I'm in my shoes like we have different goals. We have different interests different risk, tolerances. We have different like kind of like the ways that we play and what we're willing to do. And so people who go look, see you at least know you some and I care about you, and I care about what the right outcomes for you. And so, by the way, I'm willing to tell you the hard thing. It's like I know you have your heart set on this acting career is probably not. Going to work out right? Like it's a really long hard path for you. And I know that you may get angry with me because I'm trying to help you this way. And I'm going to try and do it in the warm as possible. Most compassionate way in order to make it happen because I want to show that I care for you and what I'm doing that, and I'm, I'm paying attention to it. So those are the kinds of people that you want to be most close in. And yes, they may have some expertise and knowledge about the world super smart. All those things are useful attributes, but their ability to, to stay true to being an ally. With you is the is the really key characteristic around that inner circle, do you find that some of us may be have partners with terrible, ideas or partners that are too close to the project, and we go? Okay. They're telling me this, and I, I should probably not listen to them. It is almost always the case that you will have some of that. And the way that I do that as I go. Okay. What do I think I know that they don't get Crispin, maybe close to it? They may be I may. I think that they're being led by their own bias. I maybe think they have something like an emotional decision or something else, or passion decision that yeah, is by seeing decision. And I may believe all that. That's great. But the discipline, you get to and you say, well, this person's close, I know smart, and they're saying this, okay, what do I think that I know that they don't and can I tick late myself that with some degree of precision lev? I do that, then I can feel comfortable going, okay. I'm gonna not follow their advice. I'm gonna have heard it. I'm gonna put it in the memory Bank. But I'm gonna go I'm gonna continue on this course of action. You hear that mom, it's nothing personal. I think actually it's a random accidental example, people who are really close to us often want to protect us. So they say things like Louis if he goes and tries to start this company and fails, he's going to cry is going to be upset. And then he's gonna move back in our basement. You know, you're doing really well at the police department. Why don't you stay there and it's not it's not not in your best interest, but it's also playing. Safe because they don't wanna see you fall on your face. Yes. It's not naysayer hang, it's they're trying to protect us, it's out of love. But by the way, it isn't whether or not you take risk remote. We almost always take risk and everything even saying that the police department is actually taking risks. It's a question of taking the smart risks. I'm actually going to interrupt rates train of thought here because he's leading right into another rule rule fine. Take bigger risks. There's a story from masters of scale that matches this perfectly. The story comes from Shelly Archambault, she's not a household name, but she was responsible for one of silicon valley's most incredible turnarounds. She's a huge fan of taking big calculated risks and in this next clip, she's describing a series of risks. She took while working for IBM. Shelley ascended through IBM to level of junior executive the time was right to ask the question. All right. What's it take to actually get into that C suite where your direct report to the CEO? She had dented one factor that was common to almost all of IBM's top executives almost all of them had gone and done and international sinement. But more than that. A good chunk of them a high percentage had actually gone to Japan. And I thought that's not obvious Japan was probably our smallest marketplace. Shelly didn't know why all those executives have chosen Japan but she knew it had carried them in a direction. She wanted to go. So she set herself up to enter a new current one, she believed was particularly risky for was a big risk to do tall African American female under forty going to Japan with her whole family. Early on the face of it. Shelly was at a disadvantage. But in fact, what cetera part in this also set her up for success? Men who come from the US, do international Simon, they assume that everything they've done, their reputation, whatever all comes with them whereas, whenever I get a promotion or new job, and I walk into it. I know that people are going to assume that I'm probably not quite qualified or not quite ready. So I always have to go in and prove myself established myself. Well, because I have that mentality when I showed up in Japan, I took that same approach and the approaches I could help my team be successful that will make me successful. The big thing I learned on that experience was for the first time in my entire career having the experience of being a minority wasn't asset. I tell people all the time, women minorities go doing international silent, you will actually have a edge above people who have not been minorities and experienced being minorities in a new culture. Shelly started her time in Japan by taking a risk. She'll always remember the story begins at Shelley prepares to me too key colleague for the first time. Okay. So here I am my Japanese team is my biggest team Yamamoto, son, who was running that is indeed, the person that is going to be very important to me. So I need to meet with him before we meet I meet with his right hand person. Gosh, two or three times it's kind of the process. He's go between to make sure that the very first meeting goes well. L Yamamoto Sohn's right hand man was trying to stress the importance of going slow Americans have an unfortunate reputation of charging into meetings and barking out to do lists. So he was encouraging a gentler approach. He said now Shelly, please. This meeting is just a nice meeting. It's a get to know you meeting. It's like and he's looking for an analogy and he says it's like a first date. Shelly understood the message, but his choice of the expression I date. Also gave you an idea. I'm walking to the office the next morning, and I pass by floor shop, and I stopped, and I think I date, so I go into the florist shop, and I buy the biggest bouquet of flowers. And I bring them into my office and I put them in the cupboard Yamamoto sun comes for meeting and he walks in, and we go and say Hello. And I said, so since it's our first date, I bought you flowers and he froze, and I'm thinking, oh, no. This is like. Go so badly. This idea was definitely risky, and that he broke into this huge smile. I pulled the flowers out of the covered a handed him to him. And it was great. It totally broke the ice, one of the biggest side effects that I had not planned on was he had to carry those flowers all the way through IBM Asia-Pacific all the way up through IBM Japan up into his office, and of course, everybody's wondering why is he carrying all these flowers? It worked, and as a result show, his reputation was established people started hearing about Shelley son, which is what they call Bachelli saw Mr. Shelley long before. I actually met them because of the flower story, but it was it was great. And it was wonderful that it actually would. Well. Could have been a bust. That definitely could have been a bust. But wait a dive headfirst into risk, Shelley, and now we'll let read pick his train of thought it isn't whether or not you take risk or not. We almost always take risk and everything even saying that the police department is actually taking risks. It's a question of taking the smart risks, and this is also gets down to the competencies of advice giving because if you realize that every path involves some risks in its risk trade offs. Then you go. Okay. So how do we trade off? And that's part of the reason why the ABC planning framework, because you go, well, look actually could move back in the basement, that's fine. And then we help you get the confidence to go out in the world again. And we all agree to do that. Like you could say look the conversation as if you take the start this company you do this thing. It may not work out. Do you have a plan for doesn't work out and was only plans I moved back to the basement. Okay. Great move back to the basement. We will actually in fact, do that do have a plan of how you get out of the basement. Like, what are you gonna do then, and you're going to have the energy in the dedication of wherewithal to do that? And the person says, yes. I will okay great. Take the risk. We'll be back with the next rule after a word from our sponsor. So it's the high of being really successful as a business, and that immediate low that follows sometimes of I don't know how I'm going to fulfil on my orders. I don't know how I'm going to do this thing. We're back with Jen garb OC from Capital One. She's describing the dread that comes over entrepreneurs not when they failed. But when they succeed, this is what happened to David Jato when his dog treat business, happy, Howie's dramatically increased its sales for David one of the limiting factors was that he didn't have the equipment that he needed to meet the production. So he had orders and sales that he was able to generate but wasn't actually able to fulfil on all of them. But David had a finance hack. He was ready to use for six years. He had accumulated two percent cashback from his Capital, One business card. Some entrepreneurs spend their cashback as they go along. But David had saved it for a moment like this. He set his sights on. On a new technology that could triple factory's output. It was a six figure purchase the stakes were high. It's the I want to get it right. If I'm gonna go cash in all of these rewards, or I'm going to spend this money, I wanna make sure it's for something that is really big and impactful, what kind of technology could be this big and impactful. And did it help happy Howie's level up or did it shoe up their cashback and spit it out? We'll find out later in the show when we return for act, three with Jen gar Bach from Capital, One plus a special guest. It's all part of our summer celebration. With Capital One. And now onto the next rule rule six. Don't just take a job. Take a tour of duty the idea behind a tour of duty is that you sign onto each new job, or each new assignment, within a job with a specific timeframe and goal in mind, you fulfill that goal and then sign on for your next tour of duty either with the same company or maybe even a new one. I love this idea of a tour of duty because it just intuitively makes sense to me, as a millennial this next clip comes from the episode where Reid is the guest and executive producer June. Cohen interviews him. Read is explaining what he calls the Djeddai tours of duty. And yes, that idea came straight out of the movie Star Wars. We developed the idea of the jet tours of duty along with his book the alliance. He says, there are three different tours of duty rotational transformational and foundational each maps onto a Star Wars character and probably some colleagues of yours, I asked her to take us through the three archetypes the I was rotational, which is kind of your hired gun, you doing the work. You're not really tied admission. That was Hans solo, the second was a transformational tour of duty which is how both you as an individual as an employee or transformed. And how you also transform the organization. Of course, that's Luke Skywalker, just beginning his jet, I journey, and then the foundational tour of duty is where your mission is so closely aligned with the organization that the organization as part of your own mission as an individual and that's the foundational tour of duty where your life's mission is. Part of growing in the impact of the organization that's Princess lay as tour of duty the Star Wars metaphor is funny, but it's also deeply useful for anyone assembling a team. It gives you a framework for thinking, not just about what you could get from this new team member. But what they get from you. So this is an area of friction for the older generation, and a lot of millennials sort of heads on this, because my parents or someone my parents age, common topic that nobody could stick with anything anymore. Everyone's always moving around these kids can't hold jobs for more than four years. I was at four thirty two years or whatever. But it's not quite accurate. There's something else going on here. Tell us why, why should we not be upset that people are switching jobs, so often they're moving around so much? So I was sorta Pugh second book is the alliance as part of what I was writing about Neil lions part of it was it's no longer career ladder. It's no longer career escalator. It's a jungle. Gym, right? Jungle gym. Is you kind of going sideways you go down going up? It's of all over and that's the nature of modern work. And so I think that the and actually, by the way, the whole world's better off for the world better off individuals that can have essentially multiple careers, right? Different ways they can learn and stay fresh, and be interesting businesses can be infused with new talent. What bold ideas and different learnings from different areas. And kind of just how they think of the market how they play how they operate. It's one of the things that make Silicon Valley magical because action fact, people move around from companies a lot. And so all of the companies are fiercely learning machines because they're all learning together through the, the exchanges of these biological parts that go, I learned this move over here. And I'm not taking any confidential information, but I did take what I learned and I'm applying it over here, and that, that sharing of information is, is, is super important. And you know, part of it is kind of, like think how foolish it is to say. Well, I'm twenty and I picked the exact right thing for me for the next forty five years. Like, really, you don't think you're gonna learn anything in the next forty five years to do all your learning where you're twenty you're done right? And the world's not changing and all the rest. So it's a good thing. The important thing and this is part of the alliance. The book was the say, I in fact, staying sinked and being being a forthright and being well allied with the companies you're with the managers you're working with is super important. Because you say look, what's the magical thing that I can accomplish by working here, such that you think that that was a good tour of duty like and what's that thing? And let me let me let's, let's agree on that. Let me do that. And that's part of what I contribute as part of this being a significant and interesting part of my career path. And then vice versa of okay. What's the thing that how do I get transformed this, how does this help amplify my career and maybe it will end up being here my entire life? Great awesome. And maybe it won't that should be great, too. Inevitably some of our tours of duty will turn out better than others. And that's the basis of the next rule rule seven. Expect rejection and bounce back. You hear it everywhere these days to succeed, you need grit, and the truth is, you need a lot more of it than anyone will ever. Tell you. You shouldn't just be prepared for rejection. You have to expect it. And this next clip brings that to life Stacy Brown. Philpot is the CEO of task rabbit here. She talks about her first job and how it taught her grit pretty early in the game. Let's have a listen. I grew up on the west side of Detroit. It wasn't the best neighborhood wasn't the worst neighborhood. But people looked out for each other Ecorse later on things got worse for a lot of people very, very fast. But it was home for me, but Motorcity was struggling as the auto industry's engine faltered and died times were tough communities were devastated by unemployment and despair. Stacey got an unflinching look at this reality from her very first job. The paper route Stacey showed hers with her older brother. We would deliver the papers in the mornings. And then on the weekends we had to go collect from people. And of course, there's always people who didn't wanna pay. So I had to make sure we got paid. And how old were you them? Oh, I was about ten years old. And so how did you get people to pay? Well, you just knock on their door a lot and often. And then you kind of watch when people. People's cars would pull up and see them going in the house, and you run out and catch them before they close the doors my money, then I'm ten. So, of course, they're gonna look at me and say, I need to give Stacey her money. But sometimes it just wouldn't answer the door. They didn't have it just to watch people when they go into their house. Most people would agree that stiffen a ten year old girl out of her Pekar out, money is a jerk move, but Stacey wasn't deterred, some people would see us, and it's like four degrees outside, and they would just give us that extra dollar and that just meant so much because I know it came from people who didn't have a whole lot of money, but they were proud of us for doing real work. Good work, you know, legal work in a community where a lot of people did illegal work to make money. And so I think that helped inspire me probably later on that, like, if you do, get work for good people. It'll pay off. But there was a less sentimental reason, the tros Stacey the lug heavy bags of paper. Through freezing Detroit streets, that I buy candy. Universal ten year olds. A use for this money. Trump candy, exactly cash equals candy. It's fun equation. You'll learn as a kid, but Stacey learn some tougher lessons to, I would say that my upbringing in Detroit taught me grit. It taught me about not just the cold weather, but there's a community that needs to thrive and you need to figure out a way. If anything is a prerequisite to success. It's grit but not every successful person has a clear cut origin story for their persistent nature. I dived into this observation with read, I've noticed that many successful people, not just CEO's and entrepreneurs. They have a lot of resilience. They do have a lot of grit. But if we didn't grow up selling newspapers in below freezing, Michigan winters and getting stiffed by our elderly customers running into the house to avoid paying. How do we go about developing some grit as adults? So I think grit, some of us have a more natural predisposition for some of us, don't. It's an HR but it's always nature, plus nurture. So I think grip can be learnt the principal ways anytime that you run into a difficult circumstance realize it's a learning opportunity, realize that it's like this is why I can learn it. This is why I can go, okay I pick myself up dust myself off and I do it again. And we've all encountered, at least in minor way. As like you play sports when you're in high school, you, you try your hand at art, and you're a terrible painter. Yeah. We actually in back and you go, okay I picked myself up. I keep going and, and what you do is you say it's something to learn. It's something to get better at it's the same way, as can I express myself in language. Can I pick out a good outfit? Can I like all the it's the same thing? Everyone can learn it, and it doesn't mean that everyone can learn it to be Olympic level. That's look, it's a whole spectrum on this, but you can learn it to me better and it's super important because basically were things really get tragic is. When you take yourself out of the game you don't you stop playing, and that's you, you decide to do that. How do we know if we're learning grit and resilience or were just punishing ourselves because it okay, I'm in pain? If I lean into this read said, it's going to grits gonna come out the other side, resilience is gonna come out the other side, simply putting your finger continuing the light socket. It's not necessarily a particularly good learning experience. So. Would you want to be doing as you wanna be saying? Okay, how measuring that I'm learning. And so. One of the ways that I do it as I come up with principals. So it isn't just I go, okay. I'll take more pain. I'll go okay. Here's a place where I took the pain. How do I play again? Where at least if I'm failing again, I'm learning new lessons, right? Like I learned some lessons from that time. So you go it isn't just like that was painful. Now I'm gonna try again. What did you learn from it? What did you say? Now I'm going to play differently right? Like I'm now going to say okay, I'm gonna next time I take on that challenge. I'm going to get two or three friends to do it with me or next time, I'm going to take on that challenge. I'm gonna make sure that I'd built up some momentum before I get into that kind of thing is okay. That's what I've learned. And by the way, sometimes you have to relearn, because you, well, that was actually, the wrong learning I now need to adjust that thown. But if you have that, then you have confidence that you're making progress, and it isn't just that. Well, there's a twenty foot concrete wall, and I'm trying to pound my head against it to go through it. That's never gonna work you head. You're gonna break before the concrete world. But you going, okay. Well studied the all little bit better. And I said, well, not the concrete wall would wall. I want to go after the wool fine. That's the kind of thing. And if you're if you know that you're learning you're asking the people, you trying to figure out, what's the way that I do it better, then you're making progress and grits. One of the things that comes out of it because part of how you learn grins you go, well, that was painful and difficult. But then I played again and I did better. Oh, grits useful? And that's that's how you need to do it. So when you talk about Brit, it's really easy to slip into another piece of terrible advice, which is never give up. But actually there's a time and place for that to which leads us to our next unconventional rule rule eight. It's okay to give up. Just don't give up. In our next segment for masters of scale we hear from Mark Pincus, founder of Zinger that people who brought you games like farmville he has some good points in this next clip. He's essentially telling us that we need to know how to kill our own bad ideas without giving up on the good instincts, that led us to the bad idea when the clip starts, he's telling read about one of his greatest failures, a startup called tribe, which was an early social network. It was the company he started before Zinger. It's pretty amazing. If you think about that I started one of the first three social networks in two thousand and three and I managed to fail at a time when everything worked, I actually managed to fail. I think Mark is being too hard on himself. It's true. The two thousand three was a banner year for social networks, my space, tribe linked in high five friendster the year before Facebook, the your after of those only half are still around today that lesson from tribe that came resoundingly out for me and still stands out that as entrepreneurs part of the journey that we're on is learning how to separate our winning instincts from are losing ideas. I think as a rule of thumb if you're a good entrepreneur, you can assume that your instincts are right, ninety five percent of the time, and your ideas might be right. Twenty five percent of the time. I'm not as certain as Mark when it comes to. Fixing percentages on things as hard to pin down as instincts and ideas. But I do believe in being able to recognize a winning. Instinct is an essential part of being an entrepreneur, and I certainly agree with Mark that you can expect to see very high mortality rate among your ideas, even if the instinct behind them is right in the case of tribe. Mark was pursuing three instincts, that separately, would indeed turn out to be spot on his instinct, that real name, social networking would be huge was born out by Facebook, his belief in the power smaller sub community forums powered by reputation found form. In read it while creating a better way to find jobs and showcase your professional talents, lie, that's linked in, but his idea to pursue all of these instincts with one product was wrong. I persisted with one losing idea, which was what if we mashed all these things together, and I got a bunch of the components. That wrong and I stubbornly persisted with it. I enabled anybody to connect with anybody, and what I got wrong was that mass market people did not feel comfortable sharing everything with strangers. Mark needed to kill extreme openness of tribe, if he wanted to attract more mainstream users and take advantage of the big opportunity, but he could not bring himself to deliver the killing blow. The idea of tribe wasn't right. And rather than failing fast so that you get a lot of shots on goal. We stoically stubbornly, heroically stuck to our one idea the entire time it was this bitter experience with tribe that reawakened the killer and Mark. Out of that, for me came this mentality that I brought into Zinger of. I'm not wedded to any idea, whether it's mine, yours someone else's. I'll try anything and I'll kill anything and I'll kill it quickly. And I'm not gonna let killing idea kill a winning instinct. Market read go way back. So he's had plenty of time to pick apart. The conceptual anatomy of this idea murderer, I asked read about those precise percentages. Mark loves putting on intuition, and ideas. What I like most about this idea is that, especially as entrepreneurs and this goes for creators of, of any kind as well. We need to separate our winning intuition, or instincts from are losing ideas. He seems pretty confident about the percentages of him being ninety five percent right in terms of intuition, or instincts, and twenty-five percent rate in terms of ideas. I don't know how you track on that, but I love this concept because it's really easy to go. Well, that idea didn't work. I'm clearly not cut out for this idiot. I'm never going to get it, right. So part of what I think, is really good about marks framework, here is there are times you wrong with intuition, and you need to you need to actually correct for that. But frequently one test of the of the intuition, is does not tell. You. Right. You actually have to test through a sequence of ideas, and what it allows you to do as a knowledge you might be wrong about this. Like people frequently go wrong as they go. I'm so right about the intuition, this idea must work, and I keep working that idea until I literally drive the bus off the cliff, right? And you like Neuner a bad idea, you need to pivot earlier, you need to figure it out. And so actually, in fact, it for one piece it gives you the psychological space to say, well, maybe there's ideas wrong, and maybe I should abandon this idea and it's very hard. When you're the author of the did you go well. But that's my value. That's my that's my like that. That's the thing I have that unique from everyone else, you know, more often than not greater than fifty percent of the time, you're going to have to give up on that idea. Right. And that's hard for people. And that's one thing that's really useful about marks break of, you know, cut of the a winning in tuition, versus a potentially losing idea. The other thing I like about it. Is that part of how I advise people when they think about macro pivots? Changes is you've got a measure what your ideal flow is? And so you go well in order to make this intuition work. I've got this idea got idea, one idea to got through got idea for and part of how you go. Well, maybe intuitions wrong as you go. Okay. So now tried five ideas is my sixth idea, as good or better than the average or the kind of set of the five years or my now admit substantially worse ideas than I had before right now, the, the idea because you going, I'm now, kind of scraping, the bottom of barrel for the idea is to make the intuition work. And that's when you pivot the intuition. That's when you may say, you know, I tried five different ideas doesn't really work on now going to go for a different intuition, that's actually really useful because I think most of us are so ready to throw out or actually, either hold on with the death grip or throw out an idea. And then just think well, I'm not I don't have what it takes or this can't be done. Or I since I did this wrong. Everything I do, I'm going to be making a similar mistake, and we might not have those thoughts consciously, but it's kinda hard to shake, especially if you've really get your butt handed to you by mentors, peers of the market, or whoever you might just think, okay, I'm, I'm gonna go work at target, and an additional point. That's really important. I think we may get this later too, but it's always like oriented always get back in the game and keep playing. It's part of the grit point right now, the point of that doesn't mean always keep trying to do the same thing until it totally crushes your independent and change. But staying in the game as part of how you win. It seems clear now that never give up is pretty terrible advice. And it's vice we hear all the time. Actually, I think the people who say, follow your passion, follow that with and never give up. It's almost like they just looked at a bunch of hallmark cards, and we're like I need a keynote speech. But how do we know when to give up on the idea itself? Yeah. If the market kills us, maybe but or company, maybe a better question. How do we know when that time is where we go look pivot is not going to do it five degrees to the left is not going to do it? This needs to be nuked because we need to take our ball and put our resources somewhere else. Well, this the framework, I use for this is, is the same framework, I just outlined, which is, would you do is you say, I've got a plan a right, that's kind of idea on for this, and then it's not working. And I'm Justin, maybe goals are I'm just in what I'm doing. Those kinda ideas to three or four, but as you begin to realize that on this path, you're the ideas that you're testing and aren't working are getting worse and worse. You wanna pivot early. Okay. Right. So part of what the key is the mistake that people make is they go when the company has shutting down. Now, I put it and you're like no, no, no. You actually want to be asking yourself. The question should I pit it? And you want to ask that question before the market hit you in the face with two four and that's true as an individual to you kind of going shouldn't be going. I get to the end of the decade, and I go, I really should have done something different nine years ago. That's a mistake me learning all the Symbian programming instead of IOS turned out, not a good future idea. But would you do is you if you're good and rigorous about asking yourself the question, call it every year, going well, do, I now have more confidence or less confidence in the past? I'm in and I'm testing. I'm talking to my network. I'm asking about it. Because by the way, sometimes the test is. Hey, do you think the Symbian thing is going somewhere and I heard from a bunch of smart people, I don't think it's going where okay? What do I really know something they don't which I might sometimes that's the bold thing but consider trying to get to your pivots early? And think everyone pivots the view because this is the whole cer-. Veivers biased. Right. He's talked about is everyone loves to tell these narratives of one. I was too, I knew what I was going to do when I was forty and it was, and it was a straight line. That was kinda Slough sailing, the wind was at our backs was kind of unproblematic. It's always fiction does not true. Everyone pivots. So I'm going to be pivoting to. So let me pivot intelligently and early that doesn't mean you don't have persistence. That doesn't mean don't try the hard thing a couple of times, every so often, but you, you, you knowing that pivoting is part of the game. Perfect. Yeah, I think that's it's not defeat. Your turn. You're merely steering the boat to get to the port in the right direction. Exactly. We'll be back with the next rule after a quick break. Can I be dorky about it? That's David Jato president and co founder of happy how he's like many listeners of this show, he can get pretty dorky when he's talking about technology, but his tech might be a bit different than yours. It's a machine about the size of a, we'll call about the size of small Fiat, right? Or like about the size of a mini Cooper and the cool thing about this machine is that you can make so much more than sausages in it. It's a really really flexible machine and we have a hooked up to the internet sue. So that machines always feeding us date on how the machine is performing meat. Temperature machines speed this flexible sausage maker, the size of FIU would let David triple production, but it was a nerve. Wracking six-figure purchase. We saw the, the price tag, definitely made us a little bit nervous because it was a big big purchase for us. David deliberated and then made the call. This machine is how he'd spend the cash back. Back. He had stored up from his Capital, One card over the years. The cost is always relative to what you get out of it. Right. You can say something's expensive, but it's not expensive. If you get a quick return on investment in having that twenty one thousand dollars cash back really helped us recover that investment very, very quickly. David's investment paid off fast. We've more than doubled sales, and we've more than double our store count, that growth David one step closer to what he calls his big crazy goal. It isn't just about building a business. But giving back a spirit that Jen garb Oxy's all the time in her work with entrepreneurs at capital. One that big crazy goal isn't about moving to a different location. It's upgrading his existing facility exactly where it is. Because he is optimizing for his business, his team, his local community, and it's really like encompassing picture of what he's trying to create. We'd love being able to do our part to help rebuild the city of the. Troy happy Howie's is just one of the businesses scaling up and giving back from the inside out and Capital One. Spark business is proud to celebrate their success. It's what Capital One summer celebration is all about. It's an extra recognizes that some of our biggest lessons in life. Come not only from mentors and teachers and friends, but the people who give us a much harder time rule nine. Learn from the jerks, this next clip is right up my alley. Given that what I teach so much on the show in anticipation valley, entrepreneurs and companies are soft skills, so networking relationship development, and especially reading between the lines to decipher communication and figure out why people are saying, what they're saying, so in this clip from masters of scale, you'll hear the co founder and CEO of event break, Julia Hartz talking about her not so favorite customer feedback from her first job as a barista. Let's hear it. Julia was learning to hear what people said and react to it in real time. It's a skill she developed, not only in the dance studio. But all the jobs that would follow she learned to listen to what people say, and then cut the core of what they actually mean and she learned fast. Like the time she was working at a local coffee shop. I was fourteen at the ugly mug in Santa Cruz where I grew up, I learned, how to make a great law day. But the biggest lesson was this woman would show up at the door at five fifty five AM a walk in and yell at me for like a good fifteen twenty about how bad the coffee was that. I was making her, and I would get like a pit in my stomach for the first few weeks. And then I just realized one day, she didn't have anyone to talk to, and it wasn't about me and it wasn't as not about the law. Right. So like that lesson was one of the most important lessons I've ever learned in my life. I learned to fourteen it's not about the law. It's a deceptively, simple statement, one that can save you a lot of time and effort if you learn the lesson, well, because what sounds like direct feedback the kind of feedback that calls for clear action. Is often something quite different. If Julia taken that customer feedback at face value. She would've tied herself in knots, trying to satisfy impossible demands, and she'd never have mastered making a great lot. Remember thinking it's not about the lot day. You know you with those people you're like, wait. They need someone to talk to and they're not upset about you or it or it's about something else. Right. So you gotta kinda like put it into context. It's not about the law Tei except sometimes it is, I wanted to get retake on how exactly to tell the difference between a crank after their caffeine fix and a customer, who might set you towards your next big idea. Alright read. So what sounds like direct feedback the kind of feedback that calls for clear action is often something quite different. Great. How do we know what feedback has direct feedback? And how do we know which is the crazy old lady going ballistic about a perfectly good Lottie those two things. So one is integrate data from multiple multiple data points. So, for example, you have one person saying, terrible, Altay and a bunch of other people like oh, great. They regular and they're coming in. Well, you got data points. So the likelihood that, that's a terrible lot is much lower. So multiple data points is, is super helpful, and sometimes it's tricky to get multiple data points or compare apples to apples versus apples oranges, and they make that happen, but, but multiple data points, very useful, and then also. And this gives the second point which is asked her network. Right. Ask people, you know, say I'm having this experience. How, how should I interpret it and those folks should be able to say, well, for example, if I had been friends with a young Julius, I coming. I'll tell you, I'll tell you what, I think. And I'll tell you what I actually think right? Like, like, I'm not gonna go oh, it's great like no I'm trying to help my friend those pretty good. I don't know what the problem is, whether that's how you get a second data point. And so, so the really keeping us to realize that the learnings very rarely, I mean, cage, they come from one, one data point, then you have your network to help you understand it, analyze it understand what the bees, what the, the key learnings are, but frequently it's multiple data points and then you integrate across them. And that's how you that's how you understand. And now we've arrived at our final rule rule ten. Aspire toward balance. But no, what it takes. It's very trendy these days to talk about wellness or wellbeing or balance. How much of that is realistic read has his own take on that question which is a bit different from the usual advice. You'd hear it goes into detail on it with Arianna Huffington in the episode. What great founders do at night. Here's a clip of read and friends reflecting on their frequent lack of balance. Before I go further. I have to admit. I'm a very flawed spokesperson on this particular theory, I have at times use the phrase sleep is for the week. But my defense I was being somewhat tongue in cheek well for the most part. I don't really think sleep is a sign of weakness, if I know that I have a particularly creative project coming up, all make sure I get eight hours of sleep the night before, but a younger, less wise me would often limit sleep to continue the thrill of the entrepreneurial chase those super late night hours to ship new product are far behind me, but I can't deny I look back on those days with a hint of fon romanticism as many of my previous guests on masters a scale they had told me like luckily at six PM because you're we don't know in you'll ever leave at six PM again. I literally lay on the floor of the lobby and I use my backpack pillow. I did sleep outside of the conference room for a few nights. A remember, you know, people were like sleeping under the desk. I was coating all night, trying to be CEO in the day. And once in a while reason shower. Striking the balance between work and juvenile fiction is something I still struggle with my good friend, Joey ITO will tell you. So Joey is the director of the MIT media lab. Here's what he told one of our producers when they interviewed him about Maija of letting fires burn. So the only concern I have read is that this notion of leading buyers burn isn't the greatest philosophy for having a work life balance. And I think that's something that read is now just starting to process. So on the one hand, I think he's the master of scaling. But on the other hand, I think he's just beginning to figure out how that ties into sort of taking care of himself in his life. In fact, it's my conversations on the subject with Joey, and other entrepreneurs that has gotten any thinking more seriously about this question of wellness. Not just when it comes to the individual, but how can be scaled throughout a company and a measurable way that boost the bottom line. I couldn't resist a little light teasing as Redon. I launched into discussing this rule. So sleep is for the week you have understand what game you're playing the games you can play with work life balance. That's what you wanna do. Great right in the noth-. No harm. No foul. Good thing to do if you're doing a startup, which is the metaphor. I use is you're jumping off a cliff assembling an airplane on the way down your all in. There is no work life balance there. It's you assemble the plane, or you crash on the ground. And so at that point. Yes, you need to rest enough that you can play to marathon and not just a sprint that you can play that out. But that's where you kind of go, okay, I am playing this is hard as possible. Now the sleep is for the week is kind of a fun from metaphor. I'm actually, I think making intelligent decisions is really key to how you learn do everything else. And you need to be getting enough sleep that you're cognitively functional that you're making decisions, the right way. So it isn't a stay up. Tonight's that's great. It's like no, no. No, it's a marathon and your cognitive processing the decisions, you're making are super important, the more I researched this and talk to people about it. The more the research shows that people are actually happier when they have some sort of balance, but they're happier kind of in the moment, when that balance exists, of course, but there are people who are the most successful economically, and they typically on our show, say, look at no time in my twenties. And thirties, did I have any sort of work life balance? This isn't universally. True. But Scott Galloway is a professor at stern. He said, look, forget it if you want balanced before your forties. That's fine. But you might have to accept that you won't be as economically successful as people that just burned it for twenty years. And we're like obsessed with every business that they were in and slept in the office, and it's an uncomfortable truth because I'm from the Wall Street background. So I I'm fully familiar with sub supplementing your diet with red bull and sleeping upright. A chair in front of excel spreadsheet with a lot of people are like no it's not fair. I should have balance and I should still be able to be successful. But it's kind of like follow your passion where some people do it. And then they talk about how great that is, and other people go. Wait a minute. I come home every day, I still work, six days a week, and I'm not seeing it. How come I would do? I really have to have eighty hour workweeks. It's a competitive world which of differentiation. The other people are working at our weeks, and you're working forty and you think you're gonna you're gonna win the you you'd better be lucky or amazingly good share. Or both probably both. Right. So you gotta think about it like many, many people, the majority of people I have a high economic success. So they're kind of competing for it. And you have to think about it as a competition, which means that it's the person who goes and says, oh, I'm going to be a star basketball player. And I'm not gonna practice a really the no actually back you have to commit you have to put in the time you have to put the energy, the blood sweat, and tears. That's what it takes. That's what it takes. What I love about that. Last piece of advice is that it's real and that takes us to the end of our ten rules. I hope you've found a lot of gems here. I know I have if you want to dive deeper into the stories of any particular entrepreneur, you heard from here? Just look for the masters of scale episode that has their name in the title, including the two episodes, featuring reads own story for the transcript of this episode, go to masters of scale dot com. And if you wanna stay on top of new episodes, and live events subscribe to the masters of scale newsletter also at masters of scale dot com. And if you're inspired by the idea of having successful, people translate their learnings into actionable advice. Come on over and subscribe to my podcast as well. My recent guests have included Moby Howie Mandel and Eric Schmidt. That's the Jordan harbinger show on apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. A big thank you to the masters of scale team for this collaborative episode. Masters of scale is a wait. What original the show is recorded on site in California, and produced at the studio inside S Y partners in New York, executive producers are June Cohen and Darin trip producers, or Chris McLeod, Adam skews, Jenny Cataldo, Dan, Ted me, Jordan, McLeod and Ben manilla supervising producer is J Poon job, original music, by Allison, Leyton Brown and the holiday brothers mixing and mastering by Brian Pugh special. Thanks to Chris, Bob safety. Police Schreiber David Sanford site. Stop Cristina Gonzales, Saracen and Lorne pestle and special. Thanks to the team from the Jordan harbinger show. Jen harbinger, and Jason to Filipo visit masters of scale dot com to find the transcript for this episode and be sure to subscribe to our Email newsletter.