Episode 4: Spiritual Publishing 101 with Shannon Godwin
Welcome everyone to another persona. The spiritual business school podcast. My name is Mooney and I'm your host, and you can find out everything you need to know about becoming a spiritual entrepreneur, launching your own spiritual business, and so much more on my website, the moon, averse dot com. In today's episode, we're gonna meet publishing. Experts Shannon Godwin now. Shannon's worked with publishing companies all over the US some of the biggest names around including hey house, which is where I met her. So we're going to go back to the very beginning of the process of publishing a book and learn all about the difference between traditional publishing self publishing and what you can do to make sure that your book has the best chance for success. You're also gonna get insider tips from Shannon on how to find an agent and working with an editor, and if you've never worked with an editor before you've never kind of dipped, your toes into the world of publishing. It can be a little bit of a mystery. That's hard to uncover everything that you need to be doing. It's hard to kind of figure out who all the players are, and how they all fit together. And then if you're going to go the route of self publishing all of those roles in. Responsibilities will usually fall on you and it can get really expensive, if you don't know what you're doing. And with somebody like Shannon on your side is a guide in a resource you're going to be able to get that book up and running faster than you ever thought possible, and easier than you ever thought possible, which is something I think is incredibly valuable when you consider all the things you have to do as a spiritual entrepreneur. So if you've ever dreamed of launching that book, or you have one in the cooker, take a listen to this podcast episode. See if it sparks any interest or inspiration on the process of becoming a published author in the spiritual space, if you have any questions about this episode, please. Send me an Email at podcast at the moon, averse dot com. And I'll answer your questions on next week study session without further ado. Here's our interview with Shannon. You're gonna love her southern accent, and all the wonderful things. She has to share with you. Okay. Let's hit it. I truly believe that we are spiritual beings having a human experience here on this earth. What you learn here could change the direction of your entire life. This could be the beginning of a whole new career for you. My name's Mooney, and I'm a spiritual entrepreneur. Now more than ever the world needs spiritual leaders teachers guides. Are you ready to become one of them? If you're ready. Okay Shannon were here. It's our first ever podcast together. It's great to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Thanks for letting me be a part of the moon verse. Of course, I'm happy to have you here. And of course, nobody should know that. I didn't force you to you for him. It was very healthy and Mooney's a great cook. I bribed you. So I'm excited to have you here because I want to talk about publishing the spiritual space. So for those of you who don't know who Shannon is. She is publishing professional an expert in all things. Editing publishing in sales when it comes to books and e books, and even movies and videos. So that's your background, and I brought Shannon on eight because I love Shannon, and we work together really well, great, but also because I want to bring you this level of expertise so that you too can have a little bit of a mindset about. Okay. You have this idea for a business. Okay. You have this idea for something, you wanna create or you have this message within you that just needs to come out, but before you even put pen to paper or before you can put your finger on the keyboard to start writing your book, which is a whole other conversation. I really want to dive into discussing what's going to make the biggest impact, what are the elements that go into the publishing of a book so that you can kind of begin with the end in mind to say okay, if I know that I'm going to write this book, and I'm gonna want it to land to this particular place. What do I need to do in order to set that up and have it work out? Exactly the way I want to or in some version of the way that I want to or offer it's guided to be created. So with, with that, all of that heavy stuff that I just said, Shannon. Let's talk about a little bit about your experience publishing so Shannon. I worked together when we were at. Hey house so we can talk about that a little bit. So what was your title at? Hey house. And how did that pertain to the overall picture of publishing their? At has I was the senior manager for domestic distribution. That means I oversaw the team who handled sales and production of the books in the United States and Canada. We've worked with Amazon, newborns and noble, two of the big sellers of books a million we've worked with major distributors Ingram. Baker and Taylor. You know, saw smaller distributors who specialize in spiritual space, such as new leaf so no in that role. We really is a team got very familiar with the physical books, the digital space and really what the buyers are looking for. So it makes sense that, you know, you. You know, you've got an idea you believe in your idea, you want to bring her idea to the world, but Mooney, and I are here to really show you steps to make it easier for you because there's nothing harder than having to teach yourself to write your own book to get your own space. When you really don't have an insider's knowledge of the space, get an insider's knowledge of how to succeed in the space. So, you know, being here and talking about things that I can you can think about early on before you go further in your career. And before you go further with writing your book is going to make your life, a lot easier and hope you get there faster. Absolutely and shooting news of what she speaks because I would imagine thousands of books when the pastor. When the past your desk in through your computer when you were working at hey, house. So there's, there's books of all shapes and sizes of names of people that, you know, names of people that you've never heard of names of people that you're going to hear about one day. So I think that there was a scene, it all done at all kinds of stamp of approval on Shannon. If I'm going to be so bold to give you that stamp, because I know you have I've been, I've been in the publishing and entertainment industry for over twenty years. So during that time I've seen the rise and fall of the superstar, I've seen the rise of the digital space and an Amazon, there's been a lot of changes. But one thing stays the same the, the audience really does respond to good books and strong messages. And if you've got a good book, and you want a strong message, then let's, let's help you get that out there, so you can be successful at it. I love, let's get started. Okay. So I want to talk about. Let's go back to the very, very beginning the basic basic basic beginnings of what is publishing. And specifically. What is traditional because it's a big choice. I think everyone has to make the very beginning part of this process. Traditional publishing versus self publishing so Shannon, can you talk a little bit about traditional publishing when it comes to spiritual books share? What is it conditional publishing means you work with, with an established publishing house to publish your book, and that could be like a hey, how, hey how's it could be a Random House? It could be, you know, Alcock when press it can be a big company. It can be small company, but it is an already established publishing house that are is already has a staff on hand to walk you through the publishing process. Okay. Into get your book out and then self publishing is the complete opposite self publishing, and correct me if I'm keeping keeping on honest. Self publishing is, is when you are responsible for all the things that go into making your book a reality yet, I think that is something that we should talk about. Because traditional publishing if you can get it is a huge part of it can get, you can get a traditional publishing deal. Then what is that experience? Like, you know, you, you have somebody take your book you have somebody, you know, edited turn it into this beautiful wonderful thing, giving give the message. It's best setting polish, it up, make it beautiful put a beautiful cover on it. You know, do all the research all the market research all the sales, all the things that go into making a book successful. Even like what kind of paper you're printing on what font? You're using what color, it is all the things that they know because they've published thousands or hundreds of thousands of titles of books. You have the expertise of a publishing company doing all those things making all those decisions for you. And with you. Yes to help your book have. The best chance for success. Yes. And that's even like picking a date for publishing. Oh, yeah. All of the stuff versus self publishing where all those things we just listed you're on your own. You're on your own, and it's and let's talk a little bit about how traditional publishing can be amazing. And, and then how maybe sometimes it can be a little a little knot amazing. 'cause I know some people have had some challenging experiences traditional publisher, so tell me, why Shannon just from your perspective is traditional publishing as traditional publishing is amazing. Because you have help. It's amazing. You're working with a company that has established editors they have established sales people. They have established in house art teams and the list of other departments within the company. Yes, the relationships on you've got a, a publicity department. That's friends with the person who does the booking for the today show. So, you know, you've got there's a lot of upside with working going. The traditional publishing route the downside of that is that once you do go that route, you may not have the final sale for the cover. You the editors gonna push you in a direction and she, she's going to want the book to be as good as it possibly can. But, you know, it could be conflict. You may not be feeling great about those changes that are being requested it takes a longer time from the time of publishing house says, okay? I want to publish your book in pays you for it to the town. That's public. It can be a year and a half or two years from the time you sell your book to a publisher before they get it into the marketplace just because of their process. So the upside is the process is established, and it can be great to work within those confines, but you don't have quite the control that you have when you do self publishing in typically what happens if I were to get a book deal at is selling my book. So the book becomes on the publishing company owns the book. Yes. So you're giving away in exchange for money and exchange for money. You're giving away the rights to the book. Yes to the publisher. Yes. I mean we often will hear about advances book advances, and this is what the editor editor will pay a book advance, as sort of guaranteed for sales coming in. So I'll say, hey mooning I love this book. I'm gonna pay you twenty five thousand dollars for rights to publish it. So that means that once will earn. My twenty five thousand dollars out, then you start getting your money, you know. So guess not like you're getting a bonus checks. That's not James. It's not kidding. What it says the word advanced. It's an advance against future sales of your book. Yes. It's real. Thinks that they're going to get a million dollar advance and they've made it the big time the reality is, as a million dollars worth of books, that need to get sold before you see another dollar. Yeah. From any of your sales. So I just wanted to be really clear about that, that an advanced is not free money. No, it is not free money. And unfortunately there have been a lot of new authors who perhaps felt that it was. And it's, it's just created problems for their work its problems for all parties all the expectations. I think the expectations just because unmet expectations can cause problems or misunderstanding, what the process is right. Which is why we're here talking because all of you out there listening. We want you to make sure that you have at least a working knowledge of the language, even that used in the publishing industry and how will the proponents fit together, and how you can make the best decision for you, whether it'd be trying to pursue relationship with or traditional publisher or branching out on your own and going in the direction spirit of self publishing, which is what I want. Talk about next. What are the positives of self publishing, especially in the social space self publishing? There's a lot of positives. One thing is that you have control over your message and complete control. You don't have to get approval from anyone else. You have your only answering to yourself. You can, you know, your book can be the way you want it. If you wanna hire an editor you can't. If you don't you really don't have to I recommend it. I think it's very helpful to the writing process and you just polishing your workup and being the best that you can be. But if you don't want to you don't have to an all as a self publisher responsible for finding the editor vetting the editor finding the design, Ed vetting them, choosing whether or not, you want to be a certain size while hundred paid for, you know, all those decisions. If you are that type of person, there are people out there that are incredible this. Yes, as their product and manage the project advantage themselves. They can take care of this that can set goals again cheese. I love it, and they wanted that would be the situation in which you would wanna sell publish. Yeah. You're working on a self publisher working on your schedule. Another upside to self publishing is if the Tom comes and you wanna pull the book down, and do work on it, and put the book back up. You can do that. You own the file it will the rice you ever. So you know, once you're working with a publisher, but established publisher, again, there's upside of that as well. But you won't have the flexibility won't be as easy, because there's a lot of other factors going into it. So, so pulsing is great because you control the schedule you decide that, you know, because you talked to a business astrologer and you want your book to come out on October twenty first, let's just say based on your chart or based on a specific danger. It's your birthday or whatever you wanna do or it's outside of mercury retrograde, which I know a lot of people are concerned about, then you get to control. What date the book goes up? You get to control all the elements that go into it. But you're doing it without a team of experts. Right. You're doing it without a publishing yet. Aim you're doing without a to'real. You're doing it without an art department. You're doing it without a publicity team. And those things can all be really difficult to coordinate if you don't have the time in resources, and specifically resources to be able to get it done in a lot of people don't know how to do it on their own. So publishing is not an easy thing. I think that's something that the maybe I'm I have a limiting belief around, but I feel like to publish a book or two to writing the book is one thing, but to get the book, actually published whether you choose, you know, traditional or self there's a commitment. There is a commitment, it's, you know, the there was a time where the attitude was if you publish it, they will come. That is not necessarily it you have to put it out there and you have to make it findable. And, you know, you you'd have to get your message out there for people to respond to it, but I think there's really. Strong arguments that can be made for both sides. You just have to really look at yourself and decide where your energy is at and, and where you want it to be, and pursue it, and you could always try to pursue a traditional publishing, you know opportunity. And if that doesn't work, then you can self publishing. It doesn't have to be all or nothing either way. But it is something to think about, and are there, people who have self published their book that have gone on to later be traditionally published. Yes. There are one thing that I know traditional publishers have started looking at as is performance of self published authors. I mean, there are a number of situations where someone has found work online, or CM book cell and the decided publisher has decided to see if the author will sell them the right. So then they can put it through traditional channels. And sometimes they'll, you know update, the cover one story of that. I'll give you a prime example, is Karen knowing an author at has she started as. Published through their self publishing arm, and because the book perform well, and she still continued her outreach in her marketing hunter brand after the book came out. Hey house been went to her and decided to acquire the rights to her book, and then put it through traditional channels. So that's an experience of someone who self published in the win on to actually get a book deal with the publisher, she wanted to work with. So we can't happen, it can't happen. So when you're making the decision I think between traditional versus self publishing. There's a lot to consider and the dream, I think is for some people to get the traditional publishing. But let's talk about. You know, I sell my book, a traditional publisher, how do I control the message, how do I prevent the book from becoming something? I don't want it to be. So I think that might be a fear that people have around the traditional publishing is that, okay? If I give my book away, and I sell the rights to it that I don't have control anymore. I feel. You know it could be very scary. But the two biggest fears that I've run across consistently was fear about not having final cover approval. And you know, occasionally fears about having to make changes one thing editor, and there's a lot if you'll give me a minute Mooney of light to address the role of the editor Yesalis. Yes, let's talk about the editor, whether you're editor is editing at Random House. Whether you hire a freelance editor, the editor is there to help you make your book. The best it can be. That's one thing that can hold a lot of authors back in getting the book deals is because there's the belief like, oh one and it can just edit it, and they're thinking, oh, an editor has helped me rewrite it, it does not work that way, you know, the book needs to be in very good shape before it goes out to an editor because they're looking. Hey, is there something here that I can help clean up and publish? I mean if you're getting into an editor needing to rewrite your whole book, because of all these issues, they don't have the time and they're not going to accept the book or does your hiring someone freelance? It's going to be very, very expensive. Yeah, it can be very expensive again. But it is good to have, you know, it is good. Have those third person is on your book. You know, it's good to have someone who's not your mom and your friend, whose job is to know the John rea- to know what side of the national it professionals. They know David professional exact and I think that's something that we're all guilty of doing is we fall in love with their ideas and over. It's just such a great sentence or some. That's even a word or phrase in something that's just like really clunky an editor will tell you like, okay, but, you know, this is not gonna land, necessa language. I think I feel like I've had conversations before it's not gonna land with the audience the way that you think it's going to it's going to it's not going to. And I think that's something that a lot of when you're in the process of trying to get your book published as you have to kind of let go, but I also say that with, you know, with the mindset of he can't like all the Waco, like you can't just hand the keys over and say, okay, now it's your turn to make my book book. You have to be part of the process, you have to stay engaged if part of the compensation, but you also have to listen, a professional expert is telling you, you know, one way, or the other that something needs to change, and you have to decide, are you gonna listen to do it or not gonna listen and continued doing what you wanna do? And in some cases, you know, you might be right in, in other cases you might be wrong. But when it comes to the, the editing structure, I'm not an editor, I wouldn't trust myself to edit a book correctly, and it wouldn't be something. I'd wanna do you know, I'd want to write the book and want to be creative editing. Seems like homework. Editing, because I've done both have done sales living, every can be a lot of fun. I I've always loved working with authors. I've done a lot of editing fiction. Nonfiction spirituality self-help of worked with some owners self published authors who were looking to get their voice out there. It's a lot of fun. So don't be scared by it. I mean, I know it can be overwhelming. That's what Moonie and I are here, forty to demystify the process, but, you know, be aware of what the role is, and understand, what that collaboration looks like because it's important to surround yourself with people you trust. So you can trust collaboration. So let's circle back because I now that we know the difference between traditional publishing and self enlisting, which I knew it seems like we should kind of know, but it doesn't hurt to say it to hear it again for from experts. Yeah. This is the major difference between traditional publishing self publishing if you do go the traditional publishing route, it's not like you need to hit a Harper one publishing houses. Can we talk a little bit about how publishing houses have imprint what isn't imprint? Technically imprint is a division of the publisher and not to be prime example. I know I use random pass lot simply because work there and I can use firsthand experience. There's Random House or they're now paying one. Random House penguin Random House have merged. But there's it's like having a bunch of sub companies with an with an umbrella company. So, you know within Random House, there's a lot of different divisions in random hives. Even though they're all technically part of the company Random House, you'll have can off you'll have crown, you'll have Doubleday you've got bantam. So there's a lot of other individual. Sub companies within that major and usually do you usually those inference handle a specific type of book. Yes. Each imprint has a very distinct publishing program that may not instantly. Be obvious. But, you know, do some research out there, for example, on atrium. Slash beyond words beyond words, is action, technically, the name of the publisher, who did the secret, but beyond words was part of atrial which is part of salmon, and she stir. Kind of fall of a train. You know, you to follow the clues to go back to which policy, which big publishing company, you're working with, and you won't necessarily be working with, you know, the VP of a huge company, you may be working with the editor in chief of a smaller imprint. Absolutely think of it as the NFL you have the NFL, which is the league. But within the league, you've got a lot of different teams. Each team has its own identity personality and the way of doing things and you wanna be with the right team. You wouldn't want to be publishing a spiritual book with a publishing wing that does mechanical engineering, you know, it just wouldn't fit. It wouldn't make sense, wouldn't accept it anywhere. This is wrong. But, but yeah, I think that imprinting is really important as we hear that all the time. Yeah. I think we don't necessarily always know which imprint is connected to which publishing company, but to be selected by an imprint. I don't know. I guess there's this perception that you should get your book selected by the big name brand publishing company. But in reality, the imprint is gonna get you a lot further than going with, with being swallowed alive by like the huge part of the company that everybody knows the public side like Simon and Schuster. For example, you get your book kosher Schuster. It's a big company with a lot of books, a lot of things happening. And a lot of attention means split across a lot different things versus you. Get a book published with, you know, Adria would be on words and they know the spiritual space. They have the spiritual connections. They know the industry that can help get your book in the right hands to have all those relationships, so that, that, that needs. It's like a part of the Nisha process than imprint is gonna match the Nisha your book. Absolutely. Absolutely. And if you're in doubt, if their next time you go to your bookstore, and it's also listed online, if you prefer look online. But if you do go to. A bookstore. Just look at the spine of the bug. You know, look at two out. I know I like this author look at the spine of the book who published the book and then and then go back to your computers and do a quick, search and read all about them. See what they're, they're about see who their other authors are is this someone you would fit in with. Do you think that your book would be like the crowning jewel program, that's kind of how you have to think about it? If it's true choose like even if you go to some of the larger companies do I do. Search Google search it could say Simon and Schuster spiritual publishing weight or spiritual publishing imprint wouldn't see what comes up where you could go spirituel publishing imprints in general, and see what comes up or top spiritual publishers, you know, that'll that'll kind of that should give you a list to exactly. So it takes a little bit of digging into research. But once you start to find a new see the patterns it will start to make sense. And we're here, hopefully this is helping you because the digging and research can take up so much time. But if you know what to look for in, you know, the things to consider them. You know it should move along quickly for you perfect. Okay. So we talked about traditional versus self publishing a little bit. And we talked about the so we're talking about mainstream versus niche necessarily the idea of imprints on why they haven't prince, because it just helps everybody identifying certain set of resources, well and been team members that can help you not only that, you know, the business world is it hearkens back to what Moonie and I were saying earlier about having that core idea building around the core idea. That's an imprint is a perfect example of a business that had a core idea and built a business around that core idea. Right. And so that that's the through line here. I think everyone needs to keep paying attention to is that the when you when you go into the process of creating the mindset of ongoing to publish my book that you have to have that core idea in place, because the more you have that idea in place, the more traditional publishers can find you. And the more you have that item place, the more relationships in connections. You can make that are all going to be in the direction of you finding exactly the place where your book needs to. Be. And I think that's that's really great. I loved it. We're gonna keep bringing that up. So let's talk a little bit about the and getting agent because I think a lot of people on a certain idea, maybe an even do about what is, what is it like what's a book agent. What is a book agent? What are they do? A book agent is the go-between between the author and the publishing house. The edit agent is like your manager, your business Representative the agent will have relationships with editors and what happens is when you partner with an agent, or an agent decides to take you on the agent will then submit your book to her wheel highs or his will has editors for your book to be considered. It's an in with a lot of publishing companies. I know that some houses, only wanna see work that's been represented by an agent. So, you know, they do the negotiation for you. Don't ago sheet your contract. It's nice because it keeps you and your editor fully focused on the way. Work, while someone else has to be sort of the pit bull fighting for you to give the best deal, you can get we spiritual entrepreneurs, I think it's sometimes hard for us to tap into that, pit bull mentality. In the form of an ex ternal agent that can handle those decisions for you. And really push to get you, you know, a great deal, which is something that, that will always feel good to know that you've got something you can feel proud about more in other circumstances, just protect you. But the agent is paid off of how, how does he agent pay? A percentage usually agent will get about fifteen percent of the deal. So an agent is going to take a portion of your money to representing. Be like kind of person it, you know that it's great to have that advocate. So you don't have to be the heavy. It's also great to have that person who knows the editors and knows what they're looking for and has relationships with them. So that's, that's definitely an upside. But the agent is going to take a cut after the deal is negotiated which they totally go, absolutely. Here's again, more about creating an opportunity for all of us to kind of succeed, and it's all part of the relationship dynamic, you know. And not only that there's value in agent has put in a lot of time to maintain those relationships and to really learn what different editors different publishing houses want, so, you know, there's expertise there to just as you want to be to share your expertise and get compensated for that. Then, of course they do as well. Fifteen percent usually off of Justice certain time period. Or is it for the life of the book a belief, it's for the life of the book, but again, it's, it's going to be it's case by case, I mean, fifteen percents sort of the industry standard, but that might change depending on the format you use a digital digital sales versus print book sales, or, you know, just depending on the agent. Exactly read your freezer. Fine. Print read the fine print of let's talk about when you don't have any, I know that, you know, there's a term that's used is called agent. It'd be funny way of saying, you don't have an agent but I guess it makes. So in this big written in publishing to talk about unadjusted authors. How, how are they viewed, what is it? What isn't agent and author when it comes to the publishing world? It's just that if you're in a major publishing has really rely on your agents to do some prescreening for you. If you're an editor working for any even a small publisher, you're getting so many submissions a week that it actually can take all of your time to the point where you have no time to edit. Or even work with the authors you have it's very time consuming. So, you know, an agent can go in and do sort of that pre-screening. So if there's a well known agent that lighter book at wants to represent you that already since the method. Oh, this is this is a good book. That's at a certain. Place with qualities like fast track track. Guess they've done all the quality assurance. And they made sure that it looks good. It's got a good message in. There's something about it that they find attractive recyclable. And so they're taking it and it's kind of leaping ahead of yes on agents. I can't even say the word. Eight inches own is for authors yacht, his, but uneducated authors, those submissions, there are places to send them you can find where symptoms books. Right. So if you've if you've done the legwork, and you've edited it, and you have a manuscript or you know, book proposal, usually it's the fully in manuscript that get sent. And then you could find where to send that, right? Usually you can if you go to each individual, like if he know where you want to submit your go, the websites most publishers, and agents, or very, very clear on their websites about how they want submissions to come. And if they don't accept, you know, a lot of times, they'll say unsolicited submissions. That's a word. You'll see that means unedited. Okay, what happens if they say they don't accept do not send it? Okay. So. You're not going to sneak through. You're not going to be the one who gets in, because they're not even going to reach says on the website. No. Unsolicited submissions. Then save your stamp money in state. Save your paper and your ink on your printer and don't send it down because they don't want to see it and it's just because it's unwieldy but they don't want to send see it. Dull send it towards not a wing at a prayer situation. You're not going to be the one who slips in, you know, you're not going to be, if they'll just take a look, they won't even look at it. I can tell you, they won't. Okay. And nothing personal the it's just the process, and that's the truth of so talk to me about what is the process for getting agent specifically to spiritual space because that I think it's, it's, it's different. It's different different. My number one. Go to advice on researching agents in finding an agent who might be right for you. Is to think about what other books are in the marketplace, that may have a similar voice a similar audience or a similar message. I mean obviously, your book is unique can stand on its own, but, you know, if you know that you're writing, if your book is about a, a near death experience, then, you know, dying to be me needed more, Johnny. That's a bookie should look at. And if you look in the acknowledgement sections of the book, usually they'll say, I'd like to thank my agent, and then you can get the name of the agent. That is really good. That's one place to look, if you're, you know, online, usually they'll have the nozzles page in the digital sample that like in a little extra piquancy online. That's a great way to do it if that doesn't work you can Google go to Google and look up, you know, self help spirituality Asians. Sometimes lists will come up or just research, the author, if it's not an acknowledgment section or if it's not clear. Sometimes they have it listed on their website or you, can, you can find an interview where they may mention it just look up the author's name and then agent, so there's a lot of different ways. You can go about finding an agent, but I think that's probably the fastest and easiest way to start building list of people you might want to send your book too. And then, once you send your book out, what happens, you, usually wait, wait any way. It depends. And again, I know I keep coming back to depends what you cannot expect is full critique of your book. If an agent takes the time to give you that then great, but most agents don't have Tom and they're not you're writing teacher. So, you know there's a lot of frustration I think, from authors that feel what was wrong with it, but it's a lot like a job interview. You know, if you didn't get the job that the interview didn't go the way you wanted it to. You may not get feedback on so one thing to expect is you may not get a usually the reason they say is I didn't connect with this book, or it wasn't quite right for me. You know best of luck placing it somewhere else. It's always a blow when you get letters like that. But try not to let your personal self get too caught up in it because it's all about finding the right partner and the right fit and you're gonna want some. One who believes in you who believes in your book to be representing it. So let's harbor the dream scenario of you send your manuscript in you find the agent. The website says submissions, welcome you send in your stuff in what is that first phone call? Usually that Email that the first phone call or Email is I'm interested in representing your book. Sometimes it's would like you to do revisions, and then I'd like to see it. No this if they don't ask for revisions, don't send them revisions. They I mean that's I know it's brutal. But if they're interested in your work, they'll ask for more if they're not, they won't. So again, don't feel like you're going to be the one. Oh, well, dazzle them. They, they probably won't take another look at submitted your book ones, and then you do editor, revisions or something kind of changes. Yeah. And then you try to submit it again. But you haven't heard on the first one. Yeah, doubt, there's usually a chance of that you won't hear at the second one and some agents will let you know, if it's a pass some agents have a policy that if. If you don't hear from me in six weeks, assume, it's a pass, you know, every agent is different about how they won't their submissions sent to them, and how they respond, but for any. Any be prepared for anything including ghosting? Including their ears. But is there any way to kind of gracefully because I know that persistence, I think is something that's we in the spiritual community are really good at keeping our hope in the right place in our intentions is there a way a graceful way to follow up or graceful way to keep getting in touch, or just in just two. If you haven't heard back in, it's been a couple of weeks and is there a way to communicate and say, you know, I just wanted to follow up if you have any additional questions is there anything that, that would be good practices for making sure that it doesn't get lost in the mix because because what we're talking about here. And this is a phrase that will use an I lovingly use it because I mentally created a picture of it is, it's the slush pile the slush. Is this lush pile and the magical things can happen in the slush pile? It really can. The author James Michener was a slush foul author. I actually had worked now she was slush. She was recommended. There is a. Writer. She's now a well known blogger. She's bill. Steve Harvey, her name's Ginny trout. I found her in the slush pile. So these things do happen. Hey, how specifically you know, we had one is a Cinderella story of e squared by Pam grout in Pam grou- was not a spiritual author. She written articles in magazines and newspapers are the very journalistic background. She had this idea for this book. And so she submitted to hey house, and it was in this lush pile, and then editorial assistant because that's their jobs are is to go and read the slush pile if they do accept submissions. So the reading the book, the book was great. The book passed it got passed up and got kept getting sent up the chain until finally, it was, it was settled me. This book, beautiful little magic book and the, the, you know, hey, house decided to publish it, and it was a New York Times bestseller. We couldn't keep it in stock. I know selling. And so there are magical things that I want to repeat that I want everyone to hear it. There are magical things that happen in the slush pile. So if, if all of the things we just told you, you know, about, oh, if they don't accept submissions, definitely, don't send them. But if they do accept submissions, take your chance, I think that's Pam grout, had said, oh, I don't know or if James Mischer. I don't know. And they just thought for a minute. Well, maybe it's not worth it. They would never have known. They would never have found out how great their work was because they didn't take the risk of doing the work and sending it out there. Yeah. Absolutely. You've got to take the chance. I mean, we can't publish something if it doesn't exist. Right. And Furthermore, one thing that's fantastic is a lot of these agents because of being online and because of the author community. A lot of these agents will do interviews with bloggers. And they'll tell you what they're looking for. They'll tell you what they want. So just a few minutes in front of the computer, typing in names and looking at what comes up can go a long way, I think you said it perfectly. It's going, what Tocqueville knowing what to look for is why we're here to help. Exactly, exactly. And so you've got to go for it and you gotta take your chance. Most agents are very nice. They're they're if they decide to pass on a project. They'll be very nice about it. They'll be very communicative, if they say, you know, this project, isn't right. Good luck. That means don't send it to them. But again, they may say, hey, would you revise and resubmit and in that case do it or do they give you instructions on? What their day if they want if everything that they're traditionally looking for is on their website? But if they see your individual book, and if they don't feel that it's quite ready needs a little more work, and they want to see what you can do go forward because they're also looking at. How will you revise one thing that's going to be important matter? What is revision even no matter what publishing outlet you go. You're probably at someone going to need to do some revisions on your book. And I can say if you wrote a book from beginning to end and didn't need any revisions. I would challenge that. Or channel Harmon place. Or you know you were you were at a higher consciousness than than I'm working at. So I'm glad that you brought that up because that brings us to one of the most important parts I have found of the creation of the creative process, which is adding. Yes. So we talked a little bit about editors and editing. We just started to to touch on that. But what isn't edited opening comes to pose him? What is the editor? How do they fit into the team and editor is someone who is on the lookout for new books to require for company? New books to take on for company to publish. And then once they take those books on work with those authors. They're everything from the person you brainstorm with for your next book, the person, you brainstorm with solve issues that may be in this book, but they're really going to go through your work and make your voice shot. They're looking to make your book, the best book that, that can possibly be. There's you know, it's not about commas and in spelling, although all those things are very important. It's really about. They help you say what you want to say in the best way, it can be set. So they're really going to partner their part, it's a very collaborative relationship, and, you know, they have a, a level of expertise during expert on your book topic there. An expert on helping authors with their voices and make their voices Sean so editor is not somebody who's bringing down your neck who or made usually not, because I feel like there's deadlines, and they're going to be a great net. But that's the perception. I think that you see in film, and television movies, which is a lot of times if you have written a book, you're not part of publishing. That's your exposure to. Is that the, the editors calling you and yelling and looking for you, this, and that, how do you create for those who are fortunate to be in a relationship where we are going to have that kind of partnership with an editor, how do you be good author for that editor keeping up in mind? I tend to I know I include this with revision letters when I've done in at it for an author, you know, I always include a letter of overall arching points than I have notes in the margin, but take a few deep breaths, you know, breathe sleep on it because the first thing that's going to happen is you're going to get revisions end. You might be angry and you might feel the editor is wrong, and this was your idea, and you've been married to this idea. And you know, this idea is right. And I cannot tell you how many times, you know, two days later and authors, come back to me and said, you know, you've got a point. Just try to keep an open mind really don't look at it as someone who is critiquing your work in the spirit of making, you feel bad, their particular work in the spirit of making your work, the best it can be in making you. Look the best that you can think credible distinct. Yeah. Is that in this process of traditional publishing or even if you're working with a freelance editor that the person you're partnering, it's a partnership? It's balance of the editor is looking for success for both themselves and for you, I think that no editor goes into their relationship thinking while, you know, this'll be the last time I talked to them, I think editors are looking for longer term relationships in multiple books once they've worked with you and they understand the market and they know how your books are gonna land. It's, it's a big process, a big deal for them. It really isn't. And also to, you know, some editors will see opportunities in the marketplace because remember their operating on a publishing schedule. They know what's coming a year and. A half before it's going to be published you won't. Dell notes or they know trend. Yeah. J know things that are coming out now that there's going to be, you know, there's a huge book landing that's going to be in your space than maybe they would push it further out so that you didn't have to compete with a book that, you know, from a larger author or someone who is more stabbed. So, you know, the editor is really trying to make sure that all those things that are visible to you make sense. But then there's a whole bunch of invisible. Things you won't know about little things to, you know, sometimes an author can be very repetitive. And, you know, a third person can come in your editor too much we've established it. We need to move on. Sometimes it can be rearranging the order of the book, there's been situations where I've said, okay. This whole section does not belong here. It belongs further in the book another thing on the book done start in the right place. You know, start start take out this first three pages and start the book here. So an editor is nothing to be scared of, they really are just coming at you. Your work trying to help your message be strong as positive and truthfully if you are working with an editor and you have that good relationship, and they bring something up about the story, not starting in the right place or something being out of place. If you have a valid reason you should hire that reason it's not like they're not a one way street with the editor. So you have to be comfortable saying, well, here's why I did this. Here's why. I want to have the story here and sometimes through that collaboration. Yeah, find a happy medium, and you're both happy. Usually what will happen is an author comes back to me. And says, you know this is what I wanted to accomplish. Then I'm able to go back to okay. That didn't accomplish it. But what will, let's look it because you're trying to create this message, maybe you could because I'll make suggestions. I'll say, maybe this maybe to maybe this, the author can choose, you know, I'm just here to tell you. There is a problem in the book that needs to be dressed, because it's unclear for helped me help. And this is a small thing. But I do want to mention it little things like there have been times of. Worked in books where local terms local colloquialisms were used that people outside of that small area didn't know what it meant. And so, even just being able to go in and say, I don't know what this means, you know, explain it or use another term. You know, when you're a writer, you don't think about it. Someone on the other side of your country, reading the book who may not know, your little expression. That's local. Specifically there may be terms or experiences or in. Firetruck going on behind us because we're so high. Maybe there might be terms or more significant places, or experiences or energy levels, or, or, I mean, inexplicable things things that you don't really even have words I you have to, like make them up or you have to you have to name them, or the names, were given to you in the downloaded them or whatever it is editors can help you position those phrases, so that the reader, the audience doesn't feel disconnected from the work, you want people to stay with you. You want that process to continue as their reading your Booker, or going through it. And so they can help you do that. And then your the purpose of reading your book that the teaching or the system of transformation, or whatever it is. You're creating in your in your book can can work better. You can get more of the result. You're looking to create by having added or on your team. So one of the things I also wanted to talk about is, what are the types of editing that happened, because I know that we've talked know, I know about copy editing. But I know that there's a lot more that happens to the book as it goes through the process. So what are some of those types of editing? I'm going to touch on three different stages. There's the developmental edit the Lun edit and the copy, it, your developmental, edit is usually your first edit than editor, will give you. That's top line issues. They're not going every little tiny detail. It might be, you know, you go off message here or this part with angels, didn't quite make sense. You know, we'll tell you what the bigger as structural stuff things that need to be emphasized or expanded things that need to be cut, so Julie, the broad strokes is what you get from a developmental edit after that, you know, the book will go back to the author and the author will make changes. It'll go back for line at it, and what that is, is an editor is going through line by line, making sure everything reads, properly and makes sense. An example of this. And I'm gonna he's example from fiction is. You know, one minute a couple is in the kitchen having a discussion, the next minute, they're outside by the car. We never see them gift from the kitchen to the car. So an editor would be like, hey, you know, either put it in for you say you need to give them to the kitchen from the kitchen to the car little, little moments that are dropped that will make sense in an author's head. But our onto the page. So that's when they really go through line by line line. That's very detailed after that point, it goes to a copy at it, and what a copy editors going to do is go through and check your spellings, your references. If there's anything that might need to be flagged for the legal team. If you're if you're quoting another source a copy editor flag that so the copy editor is the one who really goes into the very end with grammar and the style of the book sentences. They'll, they'll also help with some of the setup for the person who's going to type. We've got to talk. So is the editor that you work with your partner is not the same person that doing the structural edits or the copy, editing. That's usually someone further down the line is part of the aditorial team. Correct your editor that you are with is going to do the developmental edit in the line at it. The copy editor is usually someone different because that's a whole different. They're looking for something completely in that process when you receive that, that developmental edit back, does it become clear. What the is really trying to shape your book into. That's what they're really trying to do the turning reshape the book. Yes. And usually they'll be very long because we want everything in writing, and unfortunately, the letters, the long letter scare authors. But again, read it take a deep breath. But yes, you'll see it in the letter because it'll go in and say, here's the positives. Here's the things that need a little more work. And then, you know, I'll go through and give examples say on page. So, and so when this happens this wasn't community. Dated correctly, or, or in a way that understood or hey, let's strengthen that and you know, it will it'll show you the direction that the editor wants you to go. Usually, it's just looking at your words is their way to make things a little more vibrant at pack, a little more planche, things like that. That's what's gonna come out, but you'll, you'll get a clear understanding from the letter after the first real okay? So both then after that. So that's like, the, the process of creating the actual book and shaping. Yes from there, then we're talking about art direction. We're talking about the interior pages being designed, that's awesome. It's handled by someone else someone else. So that's all like, Farkas, the art department, but your editors with you every step of the way. Yes, making suggestions trying to figure out what's going to work open to feedback open to direction. Yes. You know, all those things are possible. So I don't think anyone should ever feel like okay. We'll now that that edits done. I'm going on vacation, and I'll see you when the books. You know, publishing printed. No. No. And you should stay involved. I mean you listen there are there authors who've completely checked out there are. I don't think it benefited them. And I don't think it benefited the book editors are there to answer your questions. Don't be afraid to ask the questions there your point person at a publishing house, and if you're nervous about asking them questions, if you have an agent you contact her agent and you let your agent asked them, the question everybody's on your everybody's on your team. It's not that, you know, a them versus me. And you know, you need to trust in your vision in, you need to trust in their expertise. But it doesn't mean you have to sit quietly and not ask questions and not challenge things, just remember, it's a respectful space and we're all professionals, just might vice is. It's a learning process of keeping open mind, because no one's your enemy and be reopened to defend your work. I think there's something that comes up, and somebody has a question about it. You do your very best to describe what you're hoping to achieve. I think we said that before, yes. And usually what it is, is just a misunderstanding. You know, usually it's a approach body author, the didn't quite hit the Mark. And so it created confusion. But once there's been, you know, once you talked to someone about what you were trying to accomplish. They'll be able to help you with that perfect and compromise. The spiritual business school podcast is brought to you by the moon averse. If you are spiritual entrepreneur in you've been looking for a way to launch the spiritual business. You've always wanted to have come on over to the moon, averse dot com and find all the resources you'll need to start your business faster and easier than you ever thought possible, when you sign up for my newsletter you're going to get access to my spiritual business startup guide. It's downloadable and printable chart that covers six key areas that you need to focus on, if you're gonna make your spiritual business of big success. So come on over and see what we have going on. Join our online community on Facebook. Subscribe to the podcast on itunes and take an exciting new step on the journey to becoming the spiritual entrepreneur. You are destined to be. So I, I think my first big question is going to be, how does somebody get a book published in today's day and age, like especially in the spiritual space because of course writing a murder mystery is totally different thing than writing a spiritual book. And so how does somebody go about the process of you already wrote the book already have the idea, like maybe that's already down or haven't even started yet? What's the first thing I should think about when I enter the idea of like maybe I should get this book published? I think one of the most important starting places is to have a very clear central focal point of your message, one of the biggest challenges. I see author struggle with and it when an author struggles with it, it extends through to the end product. You'll see the sales team struggle with it, it, you know, the consumer struggle with it is a book that has too many ideas and isn't focused enough. I know is very exciting, especially if you're writing your first book, you have a lot of thoughts you have a lot. The things you want to include in. Sometimes it's hard to edit that back. But I really encourage you to take a look and exercise. I recommend is if you have a sheet of paper draw circle in the middle of that circle. Right. You know what, what your central theme is, is it meditating for higher conscious is your theme nine steps to help, you know, stressed mothers, be more spiritual. Is your idea, you know? Vision, boarding and ways vision boards can help manifest your alternate dream, whatever that central ideas put it in the middle of the circle. And then as you have other ideas, you know, draw a line to those other ideas, and really think about how they all feed into your central idea. You're the expert. I mean, you know, you're writing a book that you're sharing your expertise with so, you know, the consumers going to assume you've had experience and success with this program. So really be sure that you have a strong solid message and that you really know your, your stuff about this message and how all messages after that feed into that central message. Right. This is great because this is a wonderful reinforcement of the idea of niching, because this is something I think a lot of people's struggle with, and they're like, okay. Well, I'm an energy Hewer, and it's like okay well, I love the energy. You're that's totally great. But, but how much further could you go with that niche? How much more specific can you get about the type of services or support or the systems? Like you're talking. About the you're providing so that the consumer immediately knows this. This is the book for me. This book is, basically, like my mice mice soul. In book form that I've been you know that I see on a bookshelf, and I'm gonna reach out grab that level of miliary that level of like total incomplete connection is what you're looking for. And I guarantee you, you're never going to write a book and have just been one other person experiencing what you're experiencing. We're all in this together, there's, there's a collective consciousness when it comes to these types of things, there's no way that one person is going to be into pass lives in pickup. Brian Wice book are only one person's going to be into angels and pickup Dorian virtue. Book the idea that you have depending on where you need it, there will always be this, I think is true, and we can state this, there will always be an audience. So when I say knee, and I think I'd, I'd love a little bit more support from you on, on how you view niching with the way we set it up is you pick a category. And then you pick your kind of your specialty and then you pick your niece. So, for example, for me, I, I know that I'm in the spiritual category. Like I'm in. I'm in this, like, if I go to Amazon, and this is what a lot of people suggest people do when they're thinking about writing a book, they're kind of trying to figure out what their Nisha is going to be the go to Amazon, and they start looking at the book categories, and they kind of trying to figure out where would my book fit in to these categories. Am I am I health and wellness and dieting? No, not really. Am I spirituality. And religion may be am I more business and my semi that and figure out what that category is. And then from the category. Like what is your area of specialty? So for me. Mine is my category spirituality. My, my specialty is virtual businesses. And then, you know, if you go even further down than than the niche for me is helping people launch energy link businesses helping people launch angel businesses of people launch, you know, intuitive, and psychic coaching businesses, and so I've niche down into a couple of different areas, because I've had so many requests. Of. Okay. I know you do this, but can you also do this, but can you do this, and, you know, it took me a long time to be able to get to these and be able to speak to the mole in an area of expertise, and I would not suggest anybody do that way. Because really, you should pick your one niece start out with one thing do that thing really. Well, and then go and do something else. So can you talk a little bit about that niching process? What I want to tell you just don't get discouraged don't compare yourself to, to bigger names understand the John Jonah and understand. What's needed in the John and understand what you're looking for? But don't feel that Notre to be big. You have to be all things to all people out of the gate. Yeah. We can't be all you can eat buffet. That's what I call it. The all you can eat your. You better off starting out in a space that, you know that has a clear focus appeals to audience and you really grow, your voice is the expert in this space. And then as you get more more fans. More people who know your work, you know, as you're more established in the spirit spirituality space, you can branch out and add to your to the brand new stash again Moonies the expert on that. I'm just here to talk about the publishing space, but it does all work together. And when you can go into publishing a book would a strategy and vision that hits a lot of different notes. Like marketing, like brand building, then you're already head of the game because most people don't know how to tobacco up and support their book the way it needs to in a publisher is going to help you to the extent that they can. But you're smart business people cannot assume that they're going to get hundreds of thousands of marketing dollars with publisher, especially first time out of the gate so be smart about the way you structure your book in the way structure. Message and let it grow from there. So I think we're we're trying to say a little bit, too. It's just a backup and circle back to, to what we're talking about. Because I think we there's, there's two ways of discussing publishing. I think there's a global perspective of publishing. There's a very specific perspective of publishing where I think both of them apply at the same time. So it's kinda hard to see both angles it done, but at the same time, but you have to it's kind of, like, you know, you're splitting your brain in half in kind of doing the top level, and the, the micro level approach of looking at something, but I think when it comes to the spiritual book as it's something I've thought about doing for a long time is running a spiritual book about how to launch a successful spiritual business or why the world needs spiritual leaders or, or, you know, I seldom figured out exactly what I wanna put in there. But I know that I can't just write a book about spiritual businesses. Yeah. You know, it gets too wide of Asia. There's too many things that I could say about it, and it's too all over the place and I would really need to be able to bring it down to a level that makes sense. So let's say you were an energy healer, and you wanted to write a. Book and your book was about quote unquote and the time goes energy, healing, that's problematic. Because I think that there's people who've done a decades before you were in their tenth or twelfth or fifteenth publishing version, and that there's too much other knowing not noise, but there's too much competition in the space. However, if you were to write a book about, you know, energy healing for pets where specifically cats or specifically puppies or specifically horses, or you know, you wanted to create something that you were known for, because it was a what you're passionate about, and be something that wasn't necessarily already done unquote, that seems to be like, the, the best and ripest opportunity, or, you know, the, the, the best kind of looking for -tunities free to explore because it's never been done before that to me is like the difference is like finding something that maybe was done before and done. Really great by Wayne Dyer somebody like that. And it's like could you really go on right now? There. Book that would outperform something Wayne's kind of already said and done. Yeah, absolutely. It could happen. Absolutely. Would you have a better shot for making a difference with your book and getting is in years on it, if it was a type of Booker category Booker Nisha book that someone had never necessarily explored already that gives you more to work with? It makes it more. Interesting unique. It gives you opportunities for people to find you and wanted to interviews and connect with you. And learn more about it versus, like am I going to buy this person? I've never heard of by their Booker. My gonna buy Wayne's book, since they're kind of the same idea, and most people would already by Wayne's book. I think is usually the default setting but the beauty that absolutely. I agree with you. And that's not to discourage you because it's it's not a discouraging space. I mean obviously in the spirituality world, there's a lot of books out there. But I wholeheartedly agree with Mooney on this, you know, you need to set yourself, apart one term that gets thrown around a lot in editorial meetings. When acquiring gets thrown out a lot sales. Meetings. And it gets thrown out a lot in buyer meetings is it's familiar, but different. So you're letting them know that the book isn't a familiar, John rea-. It's acceptable, it's gonna make sense to the customer. But it's different in that it's different because it has a message that is already out there or it's communicated in a way that sets apart. So when you do think about, you know, your message or central focus where you're starting with your book, your niche as the, the beautiful buzzword for Mooney. You know, really do think about who's a good fit in with, but why is your voice different? And again, I can't stress this enough. You are the expert, you know, use strong language, not will you, you maybe could try. And that's term, we don't wanna see, you know, it's try to this, this is gonna work. I know it's going to work here. My real life examples of how it worked. Here's how changed my life. You know, make that connection with your reader, really be prepared to make that connection and build on that Brown from there. I think that's important. It to because that's something we talk about his confidently being able to stay who you are, and what you do and not comes across in your website copy, that comes across when you're shaking people's hands in an elevator that comes across in your online, courses, or any interviews, given it certainly is going to come across your book. You can't be uncertain about your ability to help somebody change their life, while they're in the pages of your book, or even looking at the cover of your book or even thinking about your book on Amazon, or even wondering if there's a book out there that will help them. No one's thinking. Gee, I hope there's a book out there that may be might give me something, but it won't be certain of itself, and it really won't be guaranteed that I can get anything or maybe that's the wrong way putting it, but, but, but nobody wants to buy book, that's maybe gonna help them. Do you know what I mean? I think that there's a book, if I'm certain of its self then the people are going to be on certain in trying to buy it. I guess is what I was trying to say we we're in the energy space, and I think that energy, it really does carry through on. Yup. I don't I mean, I from an energetic standpoint, I believe it does. And, you know, hopefully got someone that can catch it. And, you know, keep it from growing, but be confident you know, really be confident in your voice, and what you have to say, don't worry about haters, you know, it's a big world and there's always going to be doubters, and people who think you need to prove something. You don't you're missing mission is to share your spiritual journey or your spiritual success story with the world so that they can be successful in their own lives. So right now, Joe around with everyone say the like you haven't really made it until someone tears, you down online, which. Fourteen reality of it is that, you know, you get to a certain point and somebody's going to have some sort of darkness or pain in their life and they're not going to be able to process it internally, and so they're going to lash out, and you're the one that's out there trying to express this opportunity for growth in change, which can be scary, which can upset them or, or make them wrong, somehow, which is not the intention, but sometimes it just happens and here, you aren't a physician, where someone's gonna write something terrible about you relieve, you bet. Amazon review or whatever else they could do to kind of leave some sort of hate mail out there for you. And you kind of have to imagine that it's a badge of honor. Don't be afraid of it, because it is a badge monitor all of a sudden, now I love it. You've got p because, you know, everything's in balance if somebody out there saying something terrible about you. There's definitely somebody out there saying something incredible about you. So usually you don't hear the incredible stuff. Usually you only hear the squeaky wheel, but you have to know to kind of go with the mindset. And I think this is true from everything we've experienced is there. Definitely is that balance between those two those two parts of it. I mean it's funny, you know, it's worth considering a friend of mine, who's actually I think it might have been an article I read. You know, the woman was writing about haters. And she said, you know, I have a friend who doesn't have hate puppies, who hates puppies and she's like, I'm have people that hated Harry Potter, Harry Potter? And yeah. And you look at this successful mega million bestselling author of JK rolling and think about it. There's people that, that aren't fans of her work either through, but I love it. You brought her arm, and interrupting once gonna love you brought her up because she's a perfect example of a couple of examples that I was going to bring out because I think they're funny because we were both at hey, house. Jake your role is a perfect example. Somebody who like, never, I'll say this to there's this idea that, like, at anyone, who's anyone in the spiritual world started exactly where you, the listener, you guys listening are, which is, you know, you have a hope a dream, or prayer in a wish or whatever you, I, you, you identify this kind of message within your light within you these to be shared. But you have no idea how it's gonna take form and you have no idea what path is going to be eliminated all the twists and turns that are going to help get you there or if it's even going to happen at all. You're doing is all you can do all you can do is express yourself and do something. And, you know, JK Rollings a perfect example of that. You know, assure story better with all the details, but I know she was like a bad position, and she's on his train, and she's writing this book in on all she could do was express herself. And she expressed herself expressed his story. And you know, it turned into this, you know, billion bazillion dollars a nominee phenomenon lied. Finan. And, and who's to say that, that could happen to anybody listening right now? There's no rules. There's no rules and say you deserve it. And you don't you know, there's, there's no way to know if it could happen to you. And if it could happen to you, why wouldn't you try absolutely. I mean, someone's going to be on that bestseller list one you, right? And especially in today's day and age, especially in the spiritual space. You know, Louise hay is all the retired Wayne Dyer unfortunately passed away, you know there's a lot of the teachers that have been putting books out for over a decade that, that maybe aren't doing it as much. And so there's a space that being created for these new voices and these new opinions in these new viewpoints, and we as a culture, shifting and changing. So all of a sudden now books that were written, you know, thirty years ago while still totally powerful and relevant and still have their time in place. There's a different spending could put on things as it relates to social media. How we interact with people or new types of relationships or the change in what we believe is a culture where we are in life right now. And I think that's what I love about some of these new books. I wanted to bring this up is that, you know, there's there are Cinderella stories when it comes to books coming out of the blue, and I knew what hey house. I mean it happened two times while I was there. I know having a couple times I need more Janis. Another example of such powerful. And, you know, here's this sort of this incredible woman who had n ND survived cancer went into remission like on the table in the hospital. You know like. Died and came back and was, you know, this, I think it's called spontaneous remission is what happened in. She was cancer free, medical, science, couldn't explain it. It's just something that happened. And Wayne Dyer founder story online, you know, sent hey house trying to figure out who she was founder. And then she was offered a book deal almost immediately. So I feel like that is also something that's happened. And it doesn't happen all the time, but it can happen, and that happens because she was brave enough to tell her story share what had happened sharing the transformation talk about it express it, you know, put it out there. And I think a lot of us are guilty of this in I was too. I think for a long time where this idea had this thing I wanted to do with a semester, wanted to share and I just couldn't get it out there couldn't figure out the words, couldn't figure out, you know, my life couldn't figure out this configure out that had all these kind of invisible, blockages around me of, like, oh, well, if assumes that done, then I'll be able to do it as soon as I get this done, then I'll be ready and no. There's, there's really never the perfect moment. The perfect moment is now the perfect moment is now another story. I think it's worth mentioning is the secret of the book, the secret I actually worked with I was working at Simon Schuster, on their sales team during the high point of that book, it actually broke before I started. I think it was a penguin when it broke. And then when it shortly after broke up moving to Simon and Schuster book with breaks with the broke more does that mean knows Brooke means it got big fast. It means that all of a sudden people are talking about it. It's shown up in the media, and, you know, accounts that passed on the book that did not want the book that the book made, no sense of them now or buying a lot of copies of the book and put at the front of the store, because surge of interest surge of interest, you'll see this happen. Sometimes if there's, you know, a, a lot of times with nonfiction, you'll see with big media, like you know, if there's. War. You might see or if there's a public figure who passes away, I'm sorry to say, you know, then there's a renewed interest, but with the secret, I mean when that book came out, it was, I think Fikri small very, very small. Just because it was, you know, no one had heard of you know what it harder was the secret. What is this? Yeah. And so I mean it went in, you know, in small numbers to just inception in stores, your, your self help spirituality. And then, you know, all of a sudden I think someone put a copy and Oprah's ward of my spread about this book. I think Oprah got on board with it, and then, of course, once Oprah headed on her show, you know, than sales, went through the roof. But that's another point I want to make is that, you know, starting small is not something to be scared of because once your book is out there it's out there and it has so much room to grow this has been so great. I really appreciate you coming, and we're gonna have Shannon, on a whole bunch because there's so much more. We can talk about editing is so much more. We can talk about publishing. I know that we can spend an entire up so talking about how to find an agent and find the writing that's right for you, about, you know how to on your website or on your, your platform. How to make sure that your tractive to the opposing company in the agency, which is. Discussion in itself. And there's just a million more things we can talk about again. This has been an incredible conversation. John is for having the horse listeners. I'm very excited that you're all contributing to the self help spirituality publishing space, and I want everyone to be successful. We need it redo need to. We need it. Absolutely are the human, I won't gonna see you very soon. We're going to be doing a lot more of these art, everybody have a great week. And we'll see you next week on our next episode. I.