EP. #15: The Arvin Nelson Interview

Automatic TRANSCRIPT

And thousands of people have been studiously benched banished in America's wilderness. Join us as we dive into the deep end of the unexplainable room and try to piece together. What happened? You are listening into locations. What's up everybody and welcome back to another episode of locations known I am Joe Erazo and with me as always is the guy who's more fun than a ballpit big enough for adults Mike Bogart? Thanks for the Inter Joe This isn't one of our normal episodes codes. we've been teasing this for several weeks. Now that we've finally got the Arvin Nelson interview with his two close friends Jay Jason and so it's about forty minutes long and it really. It really gives us some exciting details about Arvin that we didn't know from the information that's available double online and Jay and Jason had a lot of great insights on the location where he went missing what they think happened to them. And just some overall details on what Arvin was like as person before he went missing. So I'm I'm glad we. I'm glad we got this interview. Set that up because I know we If in I'll say right now if you haven't listened to the RV Nelson episode. I would say go back. Listen to it as episode would five sorts. Obviously a while ago took a little bit to get this interview together but Mike You all the credit on coordinating and actually do the interview. I was not pleasant for it but go listen Arvin Nelson episode and then tune into the interview. Because you're going to hear from two very very close. Friends of Arbenz was what one of them was in college with with the room mates and one of them. Yeah one of the guys Arvin in college in his no new for decades and the other guy New Arvin during his time living in California. They both hiked with him a lot so they've been hiking with them. They've been in this area with him before he went missing They weren't neither of them. Were hiking with them on the hype that he went missing but they they had a lotta great insight in Arvin into urban in the case. So yeah it's a it was a great interview is a little hard to coordinate. One of the guys lives in New York and the other guy lives on the west coast so In obviously we live in the Midwest so it was a it was a little tough coordination but we finally finally got everyone together and Got The interview awesome. Then I'll say out without further ADO. Let's send it over to the interview with Jay. Jason I'd like to first of all thank Jason and J. for for agreeing to speak with us on Arvin and before before we get into Arvin and the location. I'd like both of them kind of just to introduce themselves and you know tell us tell us how how you got to know Arvin so when we start with Jason All right. I'm Jason Cellist and I've known Arvin for thirty two years IM- originally met in in College at San Jose State and Yeah we've kind of become closer and closer friends after we left school and it started camping pretty often together and then hiking okay. So you've known him for a long time so yes You'd consider yourself probably a really really close friend of Arvin really close friend. Yeah okay would come to Thanksgiving's dinners at our house and so I'll in J. introduce yourself I'm jail rear and I know Arben through Jason. I met Arben much later In Fishing Arben Friendship Jason. I am also been camping hiking together. Would you say Jason last twenty years or so maybe probably yeah and I'd say that I was with Jason and Arvin on camping trips. I WANNA say like six to eight times over that period. You know wiest the most Made upwards of ten but it was almost always in the geography that we're going to be discussing where disappeared but I know Arben much less closely but I do have that context of having hiked and camped with him with Jason. Okay yes so kind of diving right into the hiking aspects so as both you mentioned. You've you've known Arvin for while hiked with with them lot before we get into you know when he went missing would you say that. He was a pretty experienced hiker. He kind of knew his way around out on the trill Israel. Yes yeah I'd say so. And he knew he knew at least sort of the front side of that trail from big Sur station to Sykes Hot Springs Quite well yeah okay. So the the location that you went missing Was the ventanas wilderness. I know In some of our previous conversations you had mentioned some things about the area that we hadn't thought about before Why don't you go into kind of the terrain what the trail was like in kind of you know some of the things you guys have come across out there in your past hikes? Do WanNA WANNA speak to that Jay. Act Star of a little bit So the the area that He went missing is is. It's it's definitely back country but it's also like fairly well developed and and hiked on. The trails are clear here Except for maybe a has a different opinion on this except for maybe like a few areas. It's not particularly difficult. Michael it's it's got a lot of exposure it's On the inland which is to say like the eastern part of that coastline so the coastline has highway. Run one running right alongside of it. And they're sort of the western side which are the beaches is and you know kind of more popular Large Parks and trails. Edith died is is more more like quote unquote wilderness. But we're we're not talking like you know it's not like super remote. There's your often you know on a day hike. You will ask a lot of people especially on this on this leg were talking. He went A little further out opt in most people do like most people on a day hike or a couple of days. Hike will stay a little more close to the town of Big Sur and he was on a a trail that went a a little further into Basically ends up in Carmel Valley at a at a monastery in there are people that will do And that that hike that are maybe a little more of a serious hiker than your average day. hiker yeah I guess my only other thing before turning over to Jason is that area that in tunnel wilderness over the last decade or so has had multiple Wildfires tires okay. There's been like a lot of you know burned down and then re growth and then burned down end so you get out there and you know there's places that are you know sort of like basically halfway regrows and I mean we can talk about this later but there are some like weird spots like really crazy overgrowth and in sort of like hidden crevasses and stuff that may have played into okay so so if if you were to go off trail it all there could be areas where you might not see a big drop off or if something happened to you and your trail. It might be hard for people on the trail to see you. Potentially yes. There are places where there's like you know. Madryn or whatever in Fairly thick undergrowth despite the fires that he could have slipped down on. Turn not been seen by helicopter or or rescue search and rescue okay. is I can't remember the specific date. He was hiking when you went missing. But how is the weather usually early in that area. Pretty hot and dry it was I think August Sixth Agai- and it if undrivable ears there are large urge swabs they are between Sort of Toss Sahara hot springs. In China. Camp where he departed from where there you might not run into a river stream for quite a while and it does during the day it can be you know. Depending on the summer can be a hundred degrees crowd. So you got to come in with Enough water under. Yes or no that. They're streams that are active and he would he would have known that okay One of the other things we always try to look at these locations nations kind of wildlife Would there have been any type of wildlife that you were Arvin or either of you would have been. You know worried about hiking out there. Is it pretty. You're you're normal wildlife that you'd see anywhere in California I'd say mostly I think maybe the thing thing that just in that area in general or that I think about when I'm out there are snakes more more than like big cats or yeah I think think actually If I I don't know if you remember this Jason by feeling maybe one of the times we were out there navy even with Arben. There was like sign. Lena bore like wild boar. There sure but people don't go out there necessarily expecting to encounter hats bats snakes and okay in bad insects more good. Yeah okay so I mean it sounds like it's a pretty popular the area to hike. I'm assuming the trails are pretty. Well maintained as well. Yeah I think so where he was though. It's when you get east of Sykes hot springs it's it it becomes pretty remote. I think you know it's not for the faint of heart or thin skinned hikers but yeah okay yeah yes it is there. It is pretty vertical in spots to their areas of the trail that are pretty rocky. Okay and and sort of somewhat steep grades there's fairly big like cones and peaks back there. Okay so it definitely definitely. It sounds like the first half of the hike is more you know any your typical day hiker could do but the spot that Arvin kind of pushed into more remote and and probably more for experienced hikers. I think so yes. Okay you know. Giving given all that kind of vocation profile. I'm I'm sure you guys have hiked with Arvin enough to know. Do you think he was prepared to to go out there. The day he went missing or would there been in some reason. You would have been packing light or you know bring water. You know something like that. I don't think so he was pretty. Well prepared Oh yeah in general okay so I think My next question so Jason. You're the one you've known him for decades Jack Aids. Yes one of the things John. I had a really tough time. Researching was kind of past life so and obviously original episode. We had some kind of wild speculation on different theories of why he went missing. Sure and largely driven by We didn't have a very clear. Grasp of you know who Arvin was really as a person kind of much before not I think we know kind of how you is like when he You know months before he went missing. Sure but we don't have a picture of Arvin the person you know decades before you went missing so I don't know if you could fill the listeners. In on in kind of the Arvin that you knew over the decades yeah certainly was happy. Go lucky kind of guy as you described At least the past ask ten years using big Sur ever. Since I've known him a light I met him at San Jose State where he moved from Colorado he originally we attended Colorado State. And just funny aside. My cousin from Chicago met him on the orientation bus. Nineteen eighty-two at Colorado State. His friend drew moved to San Jose to go to San Jose State. He sort of followed and I was friends with One of his roommates where he was living in a large house with a lot of guys as which is how we got to know each other up while we were in college he was a business major and then Shortly shortly after we graduated I was working in adobe where I'm Jay and Arvin was working in printing sales and a sort of a he. He did a little bit of banking and then went into printing sales and decided he didn't like the suit and went to go back to a waiting. Tables also doing fine dining and nice restaurants and then finally decided to kind of Parse down all a lot of his belongings allowing some he had spent several summers working at big Sur various campgrounds and restaurants and decided he liked that lifestyle better being being closer to the woods and the water so he moved everything down there at several apartments. Different places either at the campgrounds sounds where he was working with. Have kind of an international destination. So they're like you know. Kids would come on their gap year and work for a year there so he would live in the apartments at the campgrounds or renting a cottage from someone. Okay what about His Teaching Simpson's take all yes. Excuse me thanks for being that up. Yeah he was. He was also a substitute teacher. He added a credential for so he some weeks he would actually commute During the winter months back to Las Gatos where I was living. Stay with me and then do some substitute teaching during the day. And you like the little kids the most of all but And then go back to big Sur on the weekends during the slow slow part of the air but eventually ended up transitioning all the way down there are and he was taking also classes at Monterey Peninsula College. He was interested in marine biology. And he he went to like a expedition a around around Alaska in measuring the reduced amount of ice. That is up there okay. So it sounds like he's actually he's had a pretty interesting life and It sounds like he's got a lot of different interests. And you know what we were able to read about him. was that kind of like one of those larger than life figures. Catelli for the part of everyone likes them and we didn't read anything. You know anybody saying a bad thing about him. Yeah now how is this. You know the the couple of months leading up to his disappearance. How is his mood or attitude? Around Big Sur. I know everyone's everyone liked him from what we read. Yeah Yeah as far as I know quite well I mean we spoke. I left for a trip to Europe when he in the period when he left for his his his week week long trip. Yeah And we spoke just before that and Yeah I seemed Pretty Normal Arvin even think I saw him a few months before that. Yeah my wife and I took a trip down there and ran into him so is so. There's nothing in a for you to think that he you know anything was going on in his life where he he would you know. Try to go out and no lose himself. I know some of these stories of people going missing and find out down the road that they had you know some kind of hardship in their life and they kind of go out into the wilderness to to not come back Jack. I know that sometimes happens to people but they don't have any reason to think that that's what happened urban. I don't what are you going to say something J.. Oh just yeah and then media comment on on that last question I was going to mention that It had actually been a while since I had seen are in but my girlfriend actually ran into him a few months before he was missing. Okay he he was a like he definitely. Oakland was larger than life. Figure down there and he was a common visitor to Retreats Center down there Essel in there for fifty or sixty years now and yeah they have They open up the hot springs there to the general public every neither really late at night. It's like midnight to one or something when the general public can go you. He was to be found. There are a lot he hung out at Esselin and Last time I'm My girlfriend psalm was a few months before he went missing. He was just there he is hanging out in the tubs. Totally convivial and friendly A. G. said like as happy as she'd ever seen him so that was sort of the last. I don't know Jason may have been over every year that I had personally seizure that he had YOU ASK BE I. I don't have any reason to believe he would have been depressed or had anything going on. That's one thing I've thought a lot about two. And Yeah. He left his wallet in all his belongings with his friend. Jesse and said you. No if if I'm not back by the fourteenth right don't show up to work calling the cavalry I don't I don't think he would have You know he wouldn't have thrown. I wouldn't have been like him to throw that kind of mask over. Yeah disappearing himself. Yeah no yeah. I mean everything that we could find on a kind of echoed. What you guys? Both just said that he seemed like a real happy guy you know. Everyone liked him. No signs of that at least Komo externally and as far as arvin purse himself From either he was a pretty pretty big guy he was over six feet tall. I mean he's not the Kinda guy that's going to get assaulted on a trail. You go down without a fight is kind of what I'm getting at sure. He he was eleven on a fighter for sure but yeah he could but he did have the he had kind of an imposing physical presence for she s. That kind of leads me into my next question. I I can't remember which one of you brought this up. This was something Joan I totally. We didn't even think of at the time but but you said that in the area where Arvin went missing there was there could have been some type of racial element to it. I don't if either of you want to kind of expand on that I probably brought that up I mean I think just It just one thing to be said is like there. Aren't that many black people in in big Sur and there were like you're just like anecdotally a lot of people that if you were to say. Hey you know urbanistic Oh accused the black guy like it was just sort of and they didn't Enron they were saying that in a in a racial way I'm just saying like it was very. It was very obvious it was sort of an obvious fact. Yeah and I think what one of the angled. There's actually a couple of different things I think. As far as this angle goes in one is the area that he went missing missing in It's not exactly deliverance. But it's it's it's pretty wild like there's survivalists lists out there the pot growers there's a actually in that valley between the highway. One in one one JAS media can help me remember this. I think like long nauseam mental road which which connects the two highways. There's actually really Wargames that are conducted. Back there in. It's it's just. It's a real rough and rowdy sort of back country. Yeah Yeah I've got a friend in LA. He was down the street neighbor for me who lived in Monterey for almost twenty years in when I was telling him this story. You just this just Kinda like Hawk Deny Brown he he was just like yeah. You know there's there's just some rough the people back and it just it kind of leads you to wonder like if there could have been some Racially inspired violence is or whatever but the other part that I think a lot about is Sort of the length and depth the investigation. which is which always seemed sort of like weirdly short and shallow? Yeah I mean there was a there was a pretty intense sort of search and rescue effort during the first couple of weeks but it just Kinda fell out of you and then there wasn't there wasn't a lot of coverage about like a criminal investigation or I'm not trying to read too much into. It is just just one of these things really like. Oh you know some black man gets lost in a forest in. It doesn't seem like there's much attention given to it as it was like it was like a a white woman or whatever again. This is just me speculating. But I think it's we're thinking about WanNa take it from there. Sure renew say something like oh go ahead I yeah that yeah. Think about that as well and You know yeah might be some cartel growers back there or something he might have stumbled upon the that might have played into that also You know this the the search and rescue effort did go on for I think. Do you know well over a month after that but Especially on weekends. You know as you mentioned there were helicopters and planes and I think at one point. They had several hundred did search and rescue people one weekend. They made them. Yeah like a big push. I'm kind of figuring that you know he might have had food for a couple of weeks have been able to survived Just on water. which is the most important thing? Yeah but then I think after about a month they sorta through the town may have moved onto other issues. But yeah you know it's it's Kinda sad you know we see this in case after case where there's a real hard push in the beginning and then it kind of case just Kinda you know people forget about it and move on and we did a case and a guy a Paul Miller. You're a Canadian guy. That went missing in Joshua Tree and his family still flies down there and hike the trail that he went missing on trying to find clues. There's something missing and even the Park Service tells us that they'll do trade their training sessions in areas where people have gone missing just out of the you know outside outside chance they may find something but interesting. Yeah it's sad that You know these these cases kind of just you know float off into the ether after a time So I I think that's a really interesting angle that we didn't look at in the original episode of not necessarily fairly may be a racial element. But just it's it's kind of wild back there with some interesting characters and something. Yeah maybe maybe came across A drug dealer a growing something out there as it's really strange they didn't find anything from him. That's one thing I was going to say that you you registered stirred with Rei. I know His friend that he left his stuff with an and the sheriff in Monterey looked up all his gear like what Color Paki had one confined everything not a trace. And that's the really strangest thing. Yeah it's a we see this all the time it's just it's almost like the these people just vanish off off the face of the planet. It just like they're gone. 'cause how how can a search of hundreds of people helicopters canines. You know all all these resources and not find a shoe or a backpacker anything. It's it's puzzling. Did either of you Get contacted did by any of the law enforcement. They're investigating at the time. I did a couple of times I think at the initial Someone from the sheriff's Office has called me just because I was his emergency contact unlike some of his work forms okay And you know just some some basic questions like do. Do you know where he's been. Have you seen them in kind of. Yeah Yeah Pretty Koci so they really at that. Point probably didn't have any any clue what happened to them or yeah still go yeah One thing I we don't know about is At the time of his disappearance did Arvin have any family family in the United States. Yes his sister Zony Lives in Colorado and I actually met her Several months after his disappearance she came out to kind of put his affairs in order. Your take you know his belongings back for his nephew. Her her son so whom he had a good relationship with. I think he wasn't. It was kind of a strange from his sister but he liked. He got along with his nephew. Okay did did Arvin have any any partners. In Big Sur at the time of his disappearance or was he kind of you know kind of Living the bachelor lifestyle. Mostly the bachelor lifestyle. I I know you got a couple of women. Friends that he was Fairly close was too but I don't. I don't think he was in a committed relationship at the time I have heard so I think yeah. Okay Yeah it's just it's interesting to kind of fill in these pieces about arvind and we didn't know before I guess getting into kind of what I think. Everyone probably struggles goes with his. What happened to them? In our episode we covered a lot of different theories including exposure animal attack One of our wild series was foul play involved in the cabin and I know I know you guys kind of you mentioned to me that that probably was a isn't a plausible theory. But you guys know the area and New Arvin what. What do you think happened to him? It is I just want to jump in with one thing and that is in. I think I mean even in recent conversations that Jason in a by had together. I don't know that we've really ruled out the foul play idea It's because it is one. It's one of the theories that explains there being nothing to be found. Yep there there's also we can talk about this too there. There's the unlikely chance that he might have crossed over to the coast side of the highway. And you could you could fall down a cliff and be taken out with all of your stuff never be For for none of that to ever be found again I that feels really unlikely to me that it's a it's a real. Oh big detour. It's possible but you really have to make an effort to get out to the cliffs but I don't know I I think the last time Jesus talking about this week we got a little. We just ended up talking about this idea like what happened at the cab allot enver. And I'm I'm I'm a person who is very curious about like how that was investigated like if the last place that he was seeing was a remote cabin alone like yeah they did they bring out dogs they dig stuff up It just I don't know it feels like a location where you could Do something to somebody and hide them in the I think to speak to what you and Mike and Joe discussed it you know. I think it's Jack in his son. taking off in the helicopter asking him if he wanted to go with. You know they sort of Validation that everything was okay at that time when they took off but use the possibility that someone came along to the cabinet because there aren't many houses out there and perhaps it was trying to break in the guy there that they didn't expect and you know who knows what happened. I think. Yeah Yeah No. That was one of the I think thinking back. That was one of our theories that maybe he was at the cabin when other people were coming out there to maybe burglarize it. I Know Jack was I know. Didn't they make some really expensive violin bows violin bows out there. Yeah so one of the more or plausible theories we had was that you know Arvin was staying there for the neider stopping there for some reason and he just was in the wrong place at the wrong time but you think evidence of that would would have been found in the if if they did an investigation there which I don't no no I try. We tried to get the current sheriff of Monterey County to do an interview. And we're about to get him on and he didn't but it would be really interesting to no if they had you know law enforcement out there to investigate that area But yeah so I think I think knowing that that area is pretty wild back there. I think foul play for me now is becoming the the most likely theory. Sorry Sir I mean it. It's not impossible that he could lose his including Some of the locals that I talked to at his sort of memorial. Yeah party that we had said. Oh yeah he could. You know there's places where he could lose his footing slide under some shopper. I'll not be seeing and then you know as Jane mentioned and just a year or two later there was a very devastating fire that started Kind of wiped out a lot of the area so if there was any evidence it may have gone up. That's a good point. Yeah I If any anything you know clothing or backpacks shoes probably would have gone up in smoke. Can Forest Fire Right. I guess not so. I don't know yeah I don't know yeah. It's a in one question I have for you guys that know the area so if if if something would have happened to him out at the cabin is they're easy access via like could you get four wheelers back there. Even a trucker is it. You GotTa hike in in and out of their use a helicopter. I think he got a hike in. I'm not okay very familiar. I I read a story about Jacqueline's That you know like He. He would walk in when he was younger. You know how many miles from yeah from big Sur but yeah that's you know. He needed medical attention or something outlive. Not and there's no cell phone reception back there at all. Yeah and especially. We're talking two thousand six so And I was just getting at the point to foul play. You would have happened in Arvin being an imposing presence. You know it's not GonNa be easy to You'd think if someone was trying to hide the body that investigators would find that sure So it's just another aspect of it. That's kind of puzzling. Two thousand fourteen. Just two thousand fourteen. I apologize so so you guys. Obviously at the memorial you were talking with the locals what what's kind of the theory around town or do people people kind of think foul play as well. That's I think the two theories are either file a Or you know again. Lost his footing. Yeah slipped under some shopper. Brolin I'm Jay has mentioned to. He might have taken a wrong turn. I think as you pointed out in your prior episode there a lot of I am sure he had maps and compass because he was the kind of person but yeah he didn't have GPS and he may have taken a wrong turn or something did he. Did he have any formal kind of survival training or anything that you're aware of not that I'm aware of other than he. was you know an avid hiker current. Pretty well prepared. General Eighty would always you know bring food and have always had plenty of extra supplies like Foil blankets and hand warmers. Whatever sort of? Yeah I mean he was he was more or less living in in that back country. Most of the time anyway like a lot as much of the time. He was more or less living out of his Dan. He was as a you know. A A site hosted a lot of the campgrounds mean he was he was basically announced door guy acting. That's the was the other thing I was gonNA mentioned earlier as far as like you know whether he had a disposition to sort of like disappear or war. Whatever like my my thought has always been like him? Moving to big Sur. was that very. That's how he was getting away from modern life like He. He did it like he did this. Like I think Jason I it some level I admire the way that he sort of just lived this very kind of counter cultural using a camping. Camping wasn't a hobby like that was his life. He lived outdoors ores. And we're doesn't really like it was already an escape is what I'm saying like. Why Scape from your escape? Yeah No. That's a good point. Yeah you you know I. I didn't think of that initially when we're researching Arvin. But he kind of already was kind of living that minimalist lifestyle and now that you guys have said you know kind of what we thought through the research that there is no outward sign that he was depressed or anything so I yeah I think the theory that he was trying to you know get lost is not a plausible theory. well Is there any any anything else about Arben or the disappearance or are there any. Are there any people still that you know. Have family or friends you know. I was still kind of want a year visiting area looking for stuff for film up until this year which was the fifth year some of the people that relived with They were part of a fraternity at San Jose State we would meet in Carmel Valley and have a memorial hike sort of annually at school. Yeah this this year. It didn't happen not really looking for them. It just yeah to share stories and Speculate Yeah No. That's cool. Yeah we see that. With a lot of these people like to come back and Sometimes the family will go through the area looking looking for stuff but a lot of times. It's just remember the the Fun Times Hiking and Well Yeah so is there any anything else about Arvin that you guys would like tell any any funny stories out on the trails with him any any time that you're not surprised you or I just remember For whatever reason there was like a couple of years where it seem like every time we went out we got rained out it definitely would not like want to leave like you definitely like stuck it out but it was kind of. I don't no you just. He was very good humored person out there. I didn't spend nearly as much time as I as Jason did with him. I I really can't think of. I'm not even like four depression. I really can't even think of him being in a bad mood. You just like a super positive optimistic guy. He befriended everybody You know he could mm sit up for hours and hours around fire. Talking he played the harmonica was just like. I don't know just like a person you wanted to be around. Yeah Yeah and yeah. If there wasn't a mean bone in his body my wife said I think he was. You know if he was ever a little sad about something you would pick himself up and move on the morning time In a lot at many many funny stories to share but he was very good natured. Well humored guy just positive super positive and I mean he he would spend a the other thing it was funny is very social show but sometimes he would go on and Dave Pasta retreat. Where you don't speak to another human for ten days so it's not unlike? Yeah I I mean I could see him be out on the trail by himself and you know being happy being alone for a little bit too Yeah that's That's interesting and I and I I think we all know people. I have a couple friends that no matter what you do. They always have a positive attitude So That's interesting about about his. His nature Well guys I really appreciate you coming on to talk about Arvin and his disappearance Yeah I think I really I really like the theory. You guys kind of drilled home about the foul play. I think something unfortunately happens. improbably human related out on the trail and Yeah I I think there's probably some gaps. I I wish we could have talked to the the sheriff from Monterrey county to kind of. I don't even know if they can discuss the case. Because it's I think it's still open shorter But yeah once again thanks for coming on and and really appreciate it. Thanks for doing the story but welcome back everybody and again. Thank you to Jay A.. And Jason for taking the time of your day to do the interview with Mike and give us some of that great feedback in inside INFO onto Arvin. His abilities as a hiker occur and just in-depth explanation your friendships with them. I think it was very insightful and really helped us personally. I can't speak for you Mike. But it helped me personally really rethink about Arvin as a person. I know one of our crazier theories was that he went into wit sack or and he just disgusting uh-huh towns and stuff so this really Kinda obviously changed that perspective because we have more info absolutely as you as you know from the interview I the Ajay and Jason really leaning towards of foul. Play being you know the theory behind what happened Arvin and I. I think I'm really sold sold on that. Based on the fact that you the area that he went back into you know hike is a pretty pretty rowdy area of California based on you know what we were what I was told in the interview. And you know there could have been some type of racial elements or You know he came across a crime or something strange happened up at that cabin but I definitely think it was is foul play because Arvin definitely you know. I can't remember it was. Jason said you know. His escape was moving to big Sur. That was kind of his. You know getting away from society so they didn't think he was going to also want to you know that then afterwards you know. Try to be lost out in the woods so oh sure yeah. It's it's that whole idea of who is a person that we just learned more information on. In addition to all the great things the community in big Sur said about him so I I think I agree with you. I think it solidifies the theory that we weren't pushing so hard the initial episode. But I think yeah I'm with you you and I'm with them. It's it's unfortunately probably foul play and there just hasn't been that full closure of recovery yet. Yeah so Well thank you again for everyone. The tuned in. I know we've been teasing this one for a while. We are going to have a couple of new episodes coming out hopefully before the end of the. You're coming up so stay tuned and like Joe said in the beginning. If you haven't listened to the original Arben Nelson episode check. Check down in the description of this this interview. And you'll see a link to it absolutely and as always if you're hiking camping fishing. Whatever Motrin

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