Dave Frees is building trust and establishing relationships using Business Black Ops secrets
Today's episode is with Dave freeze and this will also be followed up by a video interview continuing on the same subject with ten persuasion techniques that will be released on September fifteenth on Youtube. So please check out the Youtube Channel at Eric, Hundley good air commonly dot com or YouTube dot com slash Eric. Can defined that video along with my livestream, which is exclusive to Youtube and other great video interviews. Thank you so much and I give you dave freeze. My name is Eric, and this is unstructured. Dynamic informal conversations with some amazing people. Dave freeze welcome back. It is really good to be here. I'm always every New Year I'm surprised to still be alive. Pretty much. It's twelve since I love you and every time. I. Come on your show I'm like why is having me back but I'm honored and excited. Well that's here and speaking of that. This is your third appearance so. Bean ridiculous I WANNA go back to your first appearance. And let's talk about the garnered effect. What does that again? So does our guy nick effect is where you do or say or you alluded to the idea that it might be you show somebody something that triggers curiosity within them so that they're going to pay closer or focused attention to you. You have there you have their attention in weighed in before. So these are guy nick affected writing might be where you get to the bottom of a page it says and what happened next scared me dot dot dot so you can't resist you have to turn that page. On our guy. Nick effect. Might be created behaviorally I. Think in the example, I was being be explaining in our first episode was. If I, want to get my kids attention using this our guy nick affect. I might look around five talking to them in a very conspiratorial way and lean ago. We're should mom. because. Figured enormous curiosity attention and at I'm not sure if we talked about this or not. But there's a really good biological reason for that where there's things that are out of place, you're curious they're not normal. They're different than the usual pattern in evolution. For most of our lives as humans. depending on how long you believe that is a millions of years If there was something that was out of place or something triggering this guy effect you had to pay attention to it because if you didn't, you're likely to get eaten probably meant there was danger. So we're via logically, very well trained to pay close attention to that. Okay now, you rolled it into a nested loops as well. So I like that you're going back to the first episode to close a loop about nested loops. But here's people just listening to this on its own. A loop is where you start to tell a story. So you're going to use this incredible human desire to hear story. And you start to tell a story usually as a way of transmitting information or getting someone's attention, and you deliberately stop that story and start to tell another story. So you've created kind of bizarre gynecologist there to a crazy example of it might be that you have something that would be hard to believe. And you've got to really lay the groundwork for it. So you say in the course of our conversation today, I'm convinced you that aliens. Came to Earth that might be hard to take. But if you start telling a story about something that's inexplicable that we just don't understand you stop that story and you start to talk about evidence of NASA astronaut seeing things they can't explain then you stop that story. Now people are starting to become interested in these various things that are laying the groundwork for ultimately when you get to the Telam, I have evidence that aliens landed on the planet earth and it's more believable because you had their attention, you kept their. Attention. Soon, the guy in fact you started telling a story, you interrupted that story was another one but the human brain with likes to hear one, two, three, four, saying I heard story one, it wasn't done. He started to tell story to wait a second what the rest of story one. So eventually come back around to and close that loop, and then you come back around close the loop one story to it's a very sophisticated technique to use consciously and intentionally, but it is something that we use all the time intuitively. Yes isn't that used constantly almost two in a abusive effect and TV shows now. where? And Jerry is trapped in the room tied against the wall the hero. And then three days prior. got. Exactly. What's going on there? Exactly what's going on but we do do it in human to human communication and authors You know if you want to get good at this, just read James Patterson novels or What's Dan Brown the those authors that very shortly, ineffectively used this opening chapters in telling part of the story and then leaving a cliffhanger than picking various stories backup. Books. All have stories within stories within stories that they're stopping. And building on. I think original version of that is the worst story there was. In the Congo. Or wherever it is now. The loops now I don't know my mind works in. Weird. Ways do these loops. Possibly work in our life to in a comfort factor that we're going along going along going along going along interrupt what? Yes I think that's what happens is that stories and events interrupt us and we pay attention to them, and when we're in the daily routine, a huge percentage of what we're doing is being driven by the robot not by conscious design. If you ask most people how much of your day do you spend consciously making decisions and carefully intentionally thinking about what's going on around you and how much of your environment are you aware of most people will say, Oh, ninety percent of the time. Going on is it's the reverse I mean Rowley really. Uh Self aware and aware of our environment and make he truly carefully thought out decisions very tiny percentage of each day. Most of the time we feel Hunger Pang or or thirst, which we sometimes mistaker hunger, and then we go get something to eat or drink, and that whole thing occurs at the robot level without us actually thank you very much about it our mother or someone calls and says something that triggers a a an agitation pattern that were deeply. Two years old you know. So a lot of that is happening without us consciously thinking about it So we can like so many of the things that you and I have talked about we could use that for good or we could use it for evil. We can I think he compared me to a Nigerian. Scam, emailer is Steph was the. Nicest, possible possible way. At In the same way, we can use these nested loops. To. You know get our children's attention, our spouses, attention our partners attention in a new way to get them to share more with us We might know that somebody has a barrier aversion something that would be good for them. We could use these kind of nested loops to get their attention and to overcome. The resistance. That would be there if we just blurted out what we were thinking rather than telling a few interlaced stories. So there's where we're using it for good or you could use it in. SPAMMY MANIPULATIVE WAY and You know most people could tell the difference they have different qualitative feel to them. For. Actually the way you said that because you're leading right into what I was thinking. breaking to. Get a point across you had mentioned before about. Your. Client your settling up the media and all that and you're like. You make a noise of some kind. Now, every time I hear somebody say you make a noise? They demonstrate annoys which is so obnoxiously obviously a distraction noise is there some sort of a subtlety pattern and like okay yeah, I'm senior later. Or something like that. Is it a something? I don't know if that's more subtle but it would seem to be or does it matter I think it matters and I would have calibrated for that. So here's what I mean is some people after spending an hour with them you know you're going to have to do something more dramatic. They go deeper into the trance or you can see as the meetings wrapping up that they're already launching off the thinking about the thirty two they have to get. To after that there I might use something that's a little bit more dramatic I'm with other people all you have to do is lenient or clear your throat. You know they're still paying attention to what's going on the have shifted into where am I headed next mode yet, and in that case what I'm talking to the might might just make a little gesture like a come here gesture with my finger and lean in lean in their eyes opened up a little bit. So calibration is what distinguishes. Really. Superb. Gators from pretty good negotiators or really good communicators of persuaders from pretty good at it. So when people learn these patterns and they learn what to pay attention to they're going to be better could be better at negotiating. This is a force multiplier they're going to be better at you know interrogated finding out information but what really is takes things to the next level is understanding that. You don't have to do it the same way with everybody and that each person is having unique internal experience but they give you signs of that. They show you that they're either paying rapt attention or they're not. They're either leaning into their leaning back there I they're making contacted engaged, or they're starting to look around for their keys they. They are very, you hear people. Talk about this at a superficial level, say for example, oh I saw that he was a visual person because he made a picture. But people are visual or auditory or kinesthetic. They're all of those things. But if we really pay attention, we'll see that they might use one modality or another at important points in decision making, for example. So somebody might say to me I still don't quite see what you're say if I'm asking them to make a judgment and they start scanning around for pictures in the go is still don't see what you're saying. They've just told me we've got draw picture either mentally on a piece of paper for them so that they now seek what op say. But that, but they may prefer at other times to the conversation to be listening. It's it's not that there's one kind of person that only uses that one modality. We all use all of we all when I say the word dog everybody makes a different picture of a dog or here's the sound of a dog or sees the word dog. We all have these different eternal experiences but great communicators know that most of it is about. Watching the other person and carefully listening to what they're saying. It's much more about now. We're GONNA feel guilty saying this what I've just been rambling on, but it's much more about. Asking the right questions and then be very quiet, just listening and observing what's going on. They're gonNA, tell you consciously or not everything you need to know about the next steps to do it better And what else? Exactly. Now, you calling back another interviews. Now out of curiosity, the deep is. By the way. It's you just use the technique on me like I want to ask somebody a question and I don't want to feel like there's judgment you know that they're free to talk about it I'll say this curiouser I'm just wondering no judgment so you could go on talk about that. Sorry I interrupted you using Oh absolutely. I mean how am I gonNa say something about that. But I did interrupted. You're saying I'm just curious. No worries. Accident back into a technique there I am curious about if someone is deeper in thought like you said there three steps down the road. Are they sometimes even more susceptible to the interrupt because they're deep in the mode. I think they are they're susceptible but you gotta bring him back and there's times by the way when I wanNA snap somebody back and there's times when I want them to drift back in and feel really comfortable. So I might be saying as you are feeling more and more relaxed now that you're able to because I want them to come back still feeling that relaxed feeling now that you're feeling more and more relaxed. you're feeling more capable. Now you're able to learn even faster more quickly. Exactly. What it is that we're trying to do here aren't you? Just, use the tag question there. So I may want to help create a feeling or a mindset for them and snap back while they still have that sensation and then other times I might want them to drift back. So again, I mean this is these are very sophisticated fine distinctions that use you'd see therapists or you'd notice therapists using probably at an unconscious level but But you're making a good point which is that everybody's individual and they're experiencing things in a different way as they go through the conversation with you or go through reading your marketing materials or go through a a meeting with you where you're giving them advice whatever it might be. Also I believe when they're deep in that mode is when the hardcore manipulators like a say Darren Brown. Or somebody will get a Free Cup of coffee or hand a piece of paper said of dollar. Bill. I don't know if you've ever seen Darren Brown's example and Darren, Brown for people that don't know him is. Very skilled user of these techniques in he's a a a mental EST and out of mind magician I took my daughter to see Darren Brown when we were in London the last time live it was fantastic but he did he does the thing using this very technique that you're talking about where he just does a couple of things to confuse them a couple of different levels he saying something behaving very differently than people would expect he gets them to give them his their keys, the keys prior car. And astonishingly large percentage of people that he does this with fish, the keys out of their pocket and give them to a man they don't know. which sounds crazy but that's how into it. He's using a very elaborate confusion techniques where he's saying things, people aren't expecting making certain kinds of gestures that are incongruent with that and ask you the questions that get them thinking about things that are unrelated to what's going on happening. Yeah I've heard your known to do that call back to interview one with handshakes neither do I have used the handshake deduction, which is something very similar and had people who claim that they are hypnotized. Behind me for half hour forty, five minutes with their arms in the air while I give a talk. Now I do reward them for that by giving them all sorts of posted Dodig suggestions that they will have more of the things they want. They will have learn more than everybody else so that when they let their hands dropped down just quickly to touch their legs and they have that feeling of their touching. That deal incorporate all of those things that they've learned their now already. So I do it though he perfect segue the post hypnotic suggestion Technically aren't you? Taking advantage if you will of a cognitive bias. Or bias where somebody will take an action and then come up with the reason behind what they just did. So when you hypnotize somebody for example, and you say take your jacket off and they take it off. You say, Hey, look you take your second. Why was hot I felt like it. Yeah I mean I don't think that that science completely here's what science has clearly demonstrated that there is a phenomenon. That we call hypnosis in which people behave differently when they're in a purely conscious state. how much of that is they are playing law And how much of it is something happening even below that level. I don't think is is clearly understood but I do know that I've I've seen and I've also done demonstrations where we have at least temporarily given someone Amnesia for the number six and then heads do math. And they do it without the number six in a way that would be hard to do at the conscious level. So I suspect that some of these states. which could be very useful for people to make change in their life in positive ways to get insight into themselves in ways that they hadn't before. some of the states are really powerful and useful for that. So. yeah. I would agree that you a generally speaking I'm not doing stage not learned hypnosis in a therapeutic context where you're helping people to overcome addictions or phobias and things like that of at which it's very effective by the way. But I have seen lots of stage hypnosis. Demonstrations and I have performed them kind of as a sideline sometimes when I'm speaking as a way of illustrating the power of these language patterns and you know they could be they could be pretty effective both for the person who's who's quote going into hypnosis and for the audience watching because the audience is brain does it distinguish infect Milton Erickson? WHO's the father of modern medical hypnosis used to use a technique? Rude, say Joan there you are next to bob going into a trance. Now that's phonetically ambiguous is Joan next to bob going into a trance or his joan next Bob going into a WHO's going into the truth to the chance but if the effectively both of them do. Clever wordplay. On that, is it easier? For example, you mentioned forgiving the number six is kind of a low risk thing because many of us hate math anyway. So. We really don't take much convincing. Can we forget all the numbers say let's get rid of the whole. Arabic alphabet Arabic number system we're at it. Is easier to push on little things or specific things that other things are much more difficult to manipulate. Well. I mean again I guess I would make the distinction here. What a stage hypnosis hypnosis demonstration does is what that person looking for? The, the man or the woman that's kind of running the demonstration is going to take the audience through a series of. questions and techniques, and they're to say stand out, and then they're going to talk for a while in a certain number of people sit down. Well, they're not highly suggestive or not good hypnotic subjects. So the person running. Show is going to ignore them, and then they're going to say well for the people still standing by the way raise your right hand now, lower out, raise it up again, and only a certain number of people will do all of those things. So now we have it will they'll say, okay, you four, they saw do everything perfectly so far end up I want you to put your hands together and imagine there's glue in there and try issue you may your brain believes there's glue in there. It's like, let you pull them apart and two of the three will just pull the art to of. Two of the four will pull their heads part of the forward will struggle and will be able to. One of them is probably playing along more than the other, but they're both good subjects for a demonstration of noses to a big audience like that. You know that's that's more having to do with fun than therapeutic intervention But still some of those same concepts apply even in therapy you know there are a lot of people that don't like being told to raise their hands and let them float there in front of them. So according to the Stanford hypnotize ability scale, they might be hypnotized. But Milton Erickson. Wouldn't have said that because he said, well, they might also just not like to hold their hand up. So Milton would say go to the beach and lie down fields and and feel some face goes. The person might be terrified to the beach but Milton might say I don't know where you go to relax and what you think of. How you begin to breathe in a different ways you relax war deeply now. I don't know what you think of in do in your mind but you do. And you could see that's a non authoritarian non directed kind of language pattern. He doesn't even note need to know what they're doing, but they're going to do like if I say to your audience, don't think of the color. Blue. They must think of the color blue understanding and Milton says I don't know how you breathe when you relax what you think of the pictures you make and how your muscles begin to feel different. But they must have been six could empowering them help then. Take me with you to your place where you can relax somewhere. You just enjoy I'm not we go there now together or or whatever. So that is I mean I understand what you're doing there. But what I think some people would say is they might be terrified of taking you there they might want to owe US whereas them going, they're not as scary. Okay. Okay. So did just a distinction that might matter if might not you seem like you would take me to your secret place not that that would be creepy but and I love. France looks but some people are. Good point never thought of it. That's why I asked them. Well, e see you revealed that by saying what you said, your your unconscious mind is telling me hey, I'm not afraid of that whereas if you were if you secretly harboured that fear, you would never have used that as an example with me. So I learned as of talking to people I'm learning about how they think all the time and I'm paying attention to that. Which is definitely a good thing and circling back around again. You mentioned tag. Let's tag onto that this and in your past. Your stand, up? Comedian. Who by you? Do you do frightening? You dig into the past I was I made most of my spending money When I was in law school performing comedy clubs. Yeah and that may be a better. Speaker. Better. Teacher think because you've to get out there and overcome the fear that you're gonNA make steak. You have to get out there and overcome the. Concern or fear what everyone to call it that you're gonNA bomb. you have to make if you really WanNa feel rewarding like your success we have to make people laugh. So it's funny I virtually fear I still feel like a little like butterflies in the stomach kind of thing sometimes, if I'm speaking to big convention or conference. And I just know that that's like go time that just my signal I'm ready to go. It doesn't devolve into terror and I think that comes from really honing those skills when I was a comedian I will say that. started. Working for a very old law firm very old respected law from Philadelphia was two, hundred, six years old when I started working for them and it was still appearing comedy clubs and a magazine. Covered lawyers was legal magazine and they used to do a column on lawyers who are marathon sort lawyers who are. By athletes and I was the lawyer who is a comedian and they came to a couple comedy clubs at took pictures of me, and there was an embarrassing picture which I was swinging a microphone out toward the audience and it looked rather risque and I was called was called in told. Like we're not really sure this is the image that we WANNA be portraying. But because I'd spent so much time in the comedy clubs I was fearless. While the. Comedy I would think goes hand in hand because you are trying to control the audience, you're trying to control the rhythm constantly comedy timing. And I think you realize to this goes to the individuality of the experience. The audience as a group has a sort of feel it a dynamic to it but especially in a smaller club where you could see, there's only one hundred people or something like that. You can kind of see the different people are reacting differently to certain kinds of routines and. And And you just want to get to a point. Once you get to a point where you twenty percent of the room laughs that's tough going. Once you get fifty percent fifty, five percent of the room responding favourably at, you're going to get the whole room I mean, 'cause the groups pressure to to laugh or. To cry become stronger. It develops kind of personality of its own the audience did you ever toy with them? I. Know How to come clean like to try to Piss them? Off. Whole, back my friend my friend she used to say, we know that you're doing comedy strictly for you. that it almost doesn't matter. They were writing one way I mean I really did care about the audience. I wanted the good time, but it wasn't essential to me as long as I was at the time. And you still carry that now right I do it's a very, very power attitude. Guessing that's your life attitude. Yeah I mean I care very much about lots of people. but. I feel like I serve them best when I'm not dependent on feeling a certain way from external stimuli all the time like I get. Sometimes I'M GONNA make people happy. Sometimes they're going to be less happy. Some people are built to work with me and bill to work with them and other people are probably not a good match. It did really help me with marketing that I wasn't totally dependent on universal approval because I learned early on that certain people loved the way I did Sakes and certain people you know it they they do the process, they pay me the money, but they didn't have a great time. So I eventually started to build my marketing. To gently repulsed people that wouldn't like the way I did it. and. To really attract the people that would love working with me. So you're right. I mean I I've never realized this until now achey too but I think that comedy and working in clubs and honing that attitude. Really helped me to accelerate quickly got to an audience of people that that I felt like I could really help and they loved the way I was helping them. And I, know a lot of comedians will deliberately almost push out that ten percent If they know that they're irritated but they've got the rest of the crowd. So they almost on him. Yeah. You're not, GonNa, win them over so. And, you always thrived for humans need an enemy. Really. Thrive. In an environment where this one enemy. Well, let's switch to friends. I've always wanted to know where third interview, Steve Forbes yet on the world you knows. Steve Forbes. While I worked on Steve's presidential campaigns way back in the day with he was running on the platform of the postcard sized ten forty. So that's flat tax flat tax dave. And I I'm friends I don't think she would disagree with this I'm friends with Steve's sister. Who I very much enjoy and she does amazing charitable work in our community. And so Oh, you're referring I recently had lunch with Steve. Well I eat just you have quotes from him and I know then Oliver Per Toma Few Times. So how do you know him? Yes. So that is that's how I got to know him and I just I had lunch with him. In Newark, just a little bit before our our conversation here he was in a hilarious. Mode to. I was got to watch too I brought a a as a guest Jason Feffer, who is the Editor in Chief of Entrepreneur magazine who had become friendly with. Enda he and Jason were talking about all sorts of things. Jayson has very interesting podcast key at lunch. We talked about how he built it. So it was interesting how Cheryl that with you? Definitely I'm. With bated breath on that. Talk after we you're an awesome interviewers so you should have a big audience. We're working on it. Swinging around. Business or black business ops, which is his. What's that? You do do researcher you're like the we're like the CIA the NSA I'm assuming you're listening in on me when I'm just walking around the house things. That's a big. Depends on the boards. I have a friend who worked for the NSA for many years still does and I was joking around with them about it and he didn't even acknowledge it. You just kept staring straight ahead I think because he or listening, but I was talking to it. Okay. I miss segue policies audience, but I was interviewing somebody. Who was the CIA? And I asked about a place that's nearby me. And he looked at me blank land. So I have no idea what you're talking about. And I'm like really doesn't. Just, don't know anything. That was a nested loop there we were talking about a business black ops and then we diverted off into hell you are like the CIA. Then we told the CIA story, we go back to the business black ops perfect, and so here business black ops is a group that I run where if you like these things if you like the idea of being more persuasive and being a better negotiator or by the way if you liked the idea of being able to escape from handcuffs or a duct tape, but feel like the idea of picking locks, these are all things I do teach them all of these sorts of skills that they apply in a variety of ways. But I also. I want to jump into that real quick is some of that due to especially international businessman that you may deal with, and there are very legitimate concerns by kidnapping and things of that sort. Yeah I think that that. That people underestimate sometimes the danger. It's easy to overestimate the dangerous scare yourself stop president but I think we live in a society that's been so safe. For so long that people have gotten used to. Being Unaware of their surroundings and have it really cultivated situational awareness that that would serve them. Well. So cultivating situational awareness is is a useful technique like I, I've taught people, US surveillance detection roots, for example so I've taught people how to find out if they're being tailed or lose a tale if they have now, we'll most of us that life no most of us will need that life but it's a very powerful metaphor for being more aware of our surroundings and understanding that if we have trade secrets, we should treat them like trade secrets. If we have proprietary information, we should treat it like proprietary formation we should. Gather information on our best clients customer. So we understand them we should know what our competition is up to. We should have a skunkworks that's innovative. We should have our own cue that helps us to develop the weapons that were going to use the services and products to provide to our customers, clients in patients. So I taught people to pick locks and you might say, okay but you know there's a lot going on there when you understand the mechanisms that you use to protect yourself and your property in your intellectual property and you understand how easily they could be defeated, you might take more care with that. So business black OPS is. They get a monthly newsletter in which I discuss all manner of crazy topics. And and there's always a strategic piece of newsletter in a practical piece of the strategic pieces just gaining business people, business owners predominantly to be thinking about things in a new way, and then the practical pieces what are the management tools, the marketing tools that they can either use depending on where they're working in the business or share with people in the Businesses. So we give a monthly I, call it the intelligence briefing. We also tell them things that are going on in the economy that they might or might not know about and and then we have a couple of live events each year where we teach particular kinds of skills and the one big live event which takes place in Arizona, I mean I've had. Marines and military handgun instructors there with each person who taught him how to use a gun safely this is the eighty twenty rule you and I talked about the last time burrito principle we teach them how to handle a gun safely. We teach them how to shoot. They're usually bad. So but the instructor at each lane is watching and saying, okay, I'm an expert and your enough I'm going to give you three little things to do one at a time and they teach them the three things. That make all the difference in their shooting pros. So there again, it's an activity, but it's a metaphor for learning to acquire expertise very quickly and for making distinctions water. The few things that matter and most of the things that we do a lot of times don't matter that could be in our marketing that could be in our management that could be in our development of products and services how we launched them present themselves business black offices, just a way of of it's it's A. Team Really of business people that. Don't have the common sense not to come back and they just keep coming back year after year after year. And they apparently want monthly because this newsletter people are devouring. It's it's a lot of fun but right to. Free call now are is part of what you're trying to do his take them outside of their comfort zone. In things that they'd feel awkward. I mean like a lot of people feel very uncomfortable out handling a pistol. And it's true. We've been make that overt. We say look you know your comfort zone is this big maybe it's a six inch fear if you just if you take them out of their comfort zone by an institute, you've in his fear Oracle sense you've expanded the world in which they operate comfortably now. By by a great deal. So we are constantly trying to take them out of their comfort zone in three dimensions rather than just a to and it is it was very uncomfortable. I had a woman C E of their who said listen I know people like guns I don't like guns and. I'll come with you I'll watch, but I don't want handle up and then I talked a little bit while she was watching people and I said, yeah. It's kind of important that you understand gun safety. Even if you like don't like what if you found water, what if a child found one pointed out to you need to know how to handle safety. So she conceded that flag forward about fifteen minutes later she's with a handsome marine shooting and she shouted at me to get her more ammo. Of course the Naughty phrased. Tell me to do it too so. Which of course, he responded to even instantaneously yet got my attention right away and the point just was she radically expanded what she thought. She was capable of the area in which she could, which was already pretty big the areas where where she felt comfortable not intimidated working in comfortable and capable in working. So yes, it there's there's always a metaphor to these things and yes, there almost always designed to take people out of their comfort zone. For just the least nick. That's why I kind of brought all this up because. I see this as a pattern in life and like what you're describing will help everybody get outside their comfort zone. Other factors when you talked about it. Knowing your enemy things like that I think that people could take value. Of having having better. Situational. Awareness. Inside of a freaking board meeting, if you're in a meeting with a bunch of other people. What are they really saying because everybody spouting off words but there messages that are underlying. If, you can pick up on the on the musicality underneath and the undercurrents. You don't even have to hear the word. You could almost close your ears into swatch the people. And you can see things coming like if you're laid off in two weeks you can. Smell it. Well I think you're right that most of us are when we're in these group meetings were planning what we're going to say when we see the Trista stop talking rather than listening to what they're saying. Rather than watching their body posture and their facial expression enlisting to the tempo of their voice as well as the words they're saying, we miss out on. So much of that because we're not there we're thinking about when that person's done, I'm going to say this and. When we train ourselves to pay more attention to what's going on around us, which some of these exercises. Do. We really start to enhance that and you used another technique technique on me. You know when somebody's finished talking and you simply listen and then when they're done, leave the islands, they'll keep going lot of times prompted by saying and what else I think I understand. Can you describe that for me one more time because you'll get more nuance this time so you're right that. It especially in group meetings, but even one on one a lot of times we're not even there were not even paying attention to what's going on. So we're not even getting the superficial level much less the second and third and fourth levels down. Great Point and I was thinking I guess I sent some of that I often am the lowest ranking person any room. So maybe that has served me to the advantage that I know my job is to shut up. So I spent a whole lot of time. Observing everybody else in the room and I guess I have a piece of advice that maybe everybody should. Worry less about what they're saying a more about observing will that is if there was one piece of advice that any great negotiator interrogator communicated persuader influence would would say was. The key to that mindset it's that one. Because And I, think I've said this before in our conversations, what most people are never there so they don't see it and most people assume that the words the person is is using the same thing to them. And so they don't go any deeper and they never asked for that and they don't realize that typically the first run at communication is at best inaccurate and probably ally person says talk to you is lying to themselves about what they're thinking or at least they haven't fully explored the got to the meat of what really matters to them without going further. Hence the effect of the technique and what else? What else do we need to know? Can you explain that to me again? But that's not even deliberate. Is it? No? No no they don't even I guess if you think that a lie is deliberately withholding the truth or saying something affirmatively inaccurate then maybe it's not ally because most people aren't intentionally doing it's just happening unintentionally they just when when I ask someone a question, they're gonNA, give me the superficial answer when they were probably prepared to give me. But they will go further if I ask them to go further. And they're gonNA give me lots of cues and information. If I simply ask for it, I pay attention to what they're saying give them room to be clear to explain things to me. Okay and. You have another technique. Is there. Another question. Is there another question? or any. Other questions. Oh. Is there any other question you need to ask me now that Techni? Sure Well I mean I. I have a bunch of them here for folks. you know like the six word question for example, we'll let me I lose into something earlier. I said, Oh that's a force multiplier. You know all these skills. So I should before I give you any more of them. Meaning to the audience I should explain what I mean by a football player. In the military. Night night-vision is a very powerful force multiplier. So if you have a person armed with night-vision, they can engage the enemy at night that's considered to be a five times for small supplier. If you. Enforce multipliers are synergistic. So few carefully select Special Forces Tier One operators, and you train them to be better than everybody else and you give them night-vision. Those are cumulatively going to give you a truly superior warrior that if you train them to be a cohesive members of a highly effective team armed with night-vision, that's going to be a fifty or a hundred times force multiplier. So Force multipliers I think of a business as being tools and techniques and skills that when we hone them or technologies that when we use them, make us individually way more powerful than we were without them and and communication skills in persuaded skills in the skills of influence that we've been talking about over these three times. Fall into that category they make us better at everything. We do I mean if you're really. Superb listener and communicator, and you're very able to understand that persuasion requires you to find out what the other person needs out this as does and you know some of the big strategic mindsets, as well as the techniques and tactics of the people that are great at this, you're going to be a better father or parent. You're going to be a better spouse or partner lover. You're going to be a better business partner. You're going to be a better manager of people going to be a better negotiator get better deals make deals that are more rewarding everybody involved you just better at everything and so. On that note. Yes. WADER Yoshi Inter aren't they up a piece? Are they. Of a piece. Of One thing Oh. You're not negotiating with persuading. Aren't you? We'll I suppose it's possible. I mean I guess it depends on how we define them it. I. Think of a persuader as a defective persuader as somebody who finds out what is really clear about what their own needs are and is really clear about what the other person needs and and tries to find common areas. SO THAT IS A. Valuable skill in negotiation. I think the skills of each inform the other so that okay. So you negotiate to find what each side wants and then work on the persuasion. Yeah. So a lot of times here's what I mean by persuasion in the course of two Goshi, we may find out that the other side needs these three things. And it may take some persuasion or education to get the realize what you want. The three things you want are not incompatible with those three things, and if you could find three things you want. That are no pain for them or in some way synergistically enhance the three things they want your good come to a deal. So I think they're both they Similar goals and they use skills that are compatible with one another but I think of them in them in separate ways. And I also think, maybe we've talked about this before but I'm very careful. I think persuasion is hard work but being a true influence there and earning the ability to influence others is is. Is. The. End Result of really good persuasion skills. So you persuade somebody and you give them good information and you give them a good result and you do that a couple of times they're going to trust you. So implicitly that when they want something, they're going to start to turn to you to give them answers and to give them guidance to get them systems and methodologies for achieving what they want, and they're gonNA credit you to a certain extent with helping them to have it or at least be a catalyst. So now you're influential influential, you're not doing the hard work of persuading them each time they're coming to you. So I make a distinction between. Being influential, being persuasive and being a good negotiator. But you're right they are all linked and the skills that make you better at each of those. Are Real Force multipliers. I mean. Being a better negotiator is going to be in every aspect of your life is better because you're finding ways to get what you want and give other people things that they want as well and when you do that over and over again, you build these relationships that are powerful and long lasting and ultimately just create better outcomes more automatically without even having to build trust because now you've shown this person that they can trust you two or three or four times, and they assume that that trust is going to be there. And of course, there's a magic bullet, right? There's no magic bullet. Trust order well He. Well that's goes a long way. That is true. There's. If you let that infused everything you do but everybody here's the thing is everybody Develops Trust situationally in different ways. Church the good news is that most of us have us a fairly small number of tests that we use. Different context so that developing trust. So you could say again like Oh, you're going to use techniques to develop trust well yeah you are and the sooner you figure out what the other person's tests for trust are in this context as long as you're motivated not to deceive them but to honestly deliver what it is that you're offering than building trust faster is better and if the silicates things I have a I could share it for you do show notes I'm not sure. mediocre. Once I will have links, I could put them in there. I'll give you an access access to a document that I did on trust and trust building in different contexts that I think your audience might find help like helpful. Because it is as you say, trust is that it that it fuses all of these things makes you better at all of them? We. What you're saying is these are techniques to help you engage with a person to make them feel comfortable enough to to give you trust initially in it's your job to earn that trust or to prove that they were correct. Correct. They're giving it to you. Yeah, and then keep reinforcing it as long as you keep reinforcing that trust that turns into influence because you're now trustworthy where we're not exactly you've you've become trustworthy, you don't have to prove it every time in the hardest possible ways. So I, I have a series of techniques. The six word question is one of them. One of the things that we talked about the six question is well academic straight it now you and I could see one another not everybody can. So I'm going to describe what I'm doing is I go. I wanted my kids for example to do something that I knew was good for them and that would make their life better. And I. I ask them I'm sure everybody that's listening. That's a parent has had this experience where you ask the kids to do something ride their bike without training wheels or take a lesson of a musical instrument or get outside get were exercise or play sports something that would be good for them. But I can't Yup the when you asked me to go I can't. I can't do that, which is usually motivated by fear. and. Most. Parents. Think that they're being supportive when they say, yes, you can. And they say it's just like that to go. You can, of course, you can do it. But what they're really doing is is just pure argumentation. The suggested something. The kids said, no, they're now telling the kids the kids are all, and then of course, they could do it will this causes a child or an adult in this situation to go inside and figure out all the reasons. They're right in your role that is defeating the very thing you're trying to do here, which is to be persuasive and get them to do something that would be good for them. So I don't think the color blue. Yeah exactly. They don't think of the color blue they're going to think of it. So what I would do I used to argue with kids all the time by saying, yes, you can, of course, you can do it. But as I became more skilled at these things, I would have the following kind of conversation stead. I'd say we'll look I i. know you feel like you can. So. Let me just break that down for a second. I know you feel like you can't is seems to the kid to be an acknowledgment of what they're feeling. Right but they said I can't which is an absolute. I know I know you feel like you can't yet. So I added a presupposition on there I know like you feel like you can't yet. So when I've added that presupposition, it presupposes that at some point they'll be able to. Write internally, they must make a representation of themselves being able to do it. So I I appeared to agree with them, but I secretly implanted a thought in their mind that they might be able to. And so then. So I know you feel like you can't yet. Then I look around go to trigger the Czar Guy Nick Affect something you're asking about. And I, lean in and I go. I, where where's your mom? Now. If you say that to a kid if a dad's sister kit, where's your mom? They know that what's going to come next? We'll be superb. So you have figured curiosity and focused attention now that'd be weird if you're at work using this technique and you leaned in and said, Suzie where's your mom that she would probably call the police or HR? But. The way you would do it at work is you would just change your tone of voice a little bit say what I say to the kids I'm just curious I'm just wondering. 'cause now there's no judgment. We talked a little bit about this before we're when we say we're just curious for just wondering that's all they are. We are. We're not going to judge what they have to say. So it puts the kids response to the question about the ask the six word question into a totally different context. So we've done a couple of things we said I know you feel like you can't So we've broken through. We've introduced the idea that they might be able to yet further introduces the idea that they might be able to hit that twice. Now, we've triggered this guy nick effect by leaning in whispering or changing our tone of voice. We've dissipated the a problem of judgement by saying, I'm just curious and then I asked the question and if you Google Dave freeze in the six question, you'll see video of me doing this I just say. Just curious or I'm just wondering what would happen if you or what would happen if you could. Now at this point, they must imagine themselves doing it, and often like if you're asking a teenager this, they're not gonNA give you satisfaction saying, well, then I'd have a great time what the heck I'm going to do it. But if you ask little kid this, they will offer go well, I would have a great time I'm going to go do it now. If at work this works miracles I. Mean I've had somebody I've said somebody can we do these three things by next season Ono that would be impossible? I can't do that. And say well I. Knew You feel like you can't yet but I am just curious. What would have to change in order for you to feel completely short certain that you could get this done by next Thursday while I would need somebody to take the phones and I need somebody to do this transcription. So we just went from an absolute. It's impossible to two things within my power to make them happen, and it's all done and notice how I asked that question what would need to change or would you need in order to feel completely sure in certain that you could accomplish it by Tuesday Wednesday. Also leaning into Dini's commitment on that I. Am I am triggering a little bit of a micro commitment there 'cause all asking them to do is to tell me what would have to change in order for them to feel that way. So now they're putting forth that this would happen. This would have to happen. INNOCENCE, their committing themselves down that patch in in fact, it's even better than that that you're exactly correct but I'm asking them what would have to happen in order for them to feel that way and you'll see them sort of do a little search in they'll tell you and they will have triggered that feeling within themselves that it could be done that they would feel completely showing certain could be done. So it's a it's a powerful technique. Well, this has been. Another great. Our I have a feeling I may have to. Lay Down Am. So what would it take? What would it look like if you were to come on unstructured again and I would look in the air and I would say I will. What a wet your appetite One of the things you really going to love. About having me on is that I'll share ten more techniques. Now, here's the thing about the technique. One of the things you really GonNa love implies that there are many more things you're going to love. So we're laying the foundation for you to feel that love or excitement or name the word that you want them to feel. Perfect. And thanks so much again. Thanks for listening and if you like what you heard, please consider subscribing for free and I mean four free it is always free. There's no billing anything else. You can subscribe in your player of choice, which is probably right in your hands or you can good unstructured pod dot com and there are plenty of links there. Thank you so much and in the spirit of sharing, here's a couple more shows you want check. I did not grow up with very much money money say energy. Really scares me yet about sixty granted money isn't the answer somebody should just give me a lot of money. My dream was to be the WB wrestler, but you realize that your dreams changed over the years as a tool it's key to gate and the other side of the gate is the things you really want to do with your life. It's the things that matter most to you. It's pursuing those values may ultimately happy listen to inspired money at inspired money FM. Hey I'm studio. Steve's Veronica and we. We have a podcast all about podcasting. We cover everything related to the craft how start a podcast? Prove podcast, how to promote a podcast and how to reach a bigger audience. So come check out our PODCAST pod sound school. We're on all of the players or on our website pottstown school dot com we are dedicated to provide our policies with up to date EC actionable information sometimes are -rageous, and always fun. No. Regularly scheduled programing.