Roger Lynchs plan to save Cond Nast
This episode is sponsored by the. Hbo Series His dark materials based on author. Philip pullman epic trilogy. His materials follows a brave young woman on request to find her kidnapped. Trend and uncover a sinister plot with a star studded. CAST including Daphne Key Ruth Wilson James mcavoy and Lin Manuel Manuel Miranda. Catch up on episodes one through four on HBO streaming platforms. You episodes air every Monday night at nine pm eastern his dark materials the the truth lies beyond the world. We known recode media Peter Kafka. That's me I'm recording this in New York. We're GONNA take you back. In in time across the country to Los Angeles or hosted the Code Media Conference talked about media and technology in the streaming wars. And where everything is going We're going to bring you one of those conversations right now please welcome. CEO Title Right Conde. NAST Roger Lynch Peter. Nice to see you see you. I don't know if you know this but Vox Media where I work often described itself as the digital conde. Yeah now I've heard that but I stopped magazine company now to we are now a magazine publisher as well. How does that business should be in the magazine business? You know I heard you introduced me as being the magazine. Business and actually magazines are a minority of our revenue. What we're really in the content business and magazines are one of the ways that are content creators express the content but video and digital and events in all kinds of other things are actually the majority of the room? So I'd met well whatever before but I talked about six months ago after you've got the job you've been most recently. Running Pandora went met. You the Fancy Conde NAST office and the World Trade Senator. Yes I had a bunch of question to that office by the way not the World Trade Center still the one you met me in which was to me a bit depressing. Was it depressing. Because because it was so Pandora I literally sat on the floor indefinite next to everybody else and I get to Conde Nast and they take me to my office. And it's like go through this reception option into this reception over here and you sit in the office and there's nobody around and so it was a real culture shock for me so we moved out of that floor and to another floor where it's much more open in glass and you can actually see people interact with them instead of feel like. You're not to be too cat. who was that also a money saving? Move how no no well it will save money. Yeah Yeah but it was to me. It was more of a We're doing a big cultural shift and that's part of it. Yeah when asked what the culture shift so met you six months ago. We talked about what you're GONNA do in pretty much every time I asked you. I don't know I just got here I'm doing a listening to are going to figure it out. I think it was two or three weeks into the job. Uh simply figuring it out figuring it out. Yeah let's start with the culture of the business versus you. Know they're they're intertwined really I see them as a Inextricably intertwined and you know the challenge for everyone is coming up with the publishing side of of our businesses. New For me. Everything I've done before it was much more about digital media and so there's a lot I had to learn on that but also you know the history of Conde Nast for those you may not know as it is a long history you know. Actually our oldest title goes back to you WANNA take a guess. Eighteen seventeen nine. Whoa what's that hatler the the UK seventeen o nine? So there's a lot of history and history is intertwined into culture and our technology stack and and how we approach business and think about it and Conde Nast also in the history is the international business was a separate company with a separate. CEO even though it was owned by the same group They were almost really they were competitors they saw each other's competitor and so I'm the first code actually run a combined business and so one of the first things I figure out is. What does it mean to combine these businesses? And what does it mean to be a global company. And so I was on a listening tour that you and I talked about. And at the end of that. We announced the new structure for the business. And we've been integrating now the national business and along with US business and so it's essentially like you've bought a new company emerging it to get it really really is for for those of you who've who've done merger integration before other than having to negotiate the terms of the merger everything else is a merger integration. You know who gets this job. Who who doesn't what tech stack what you're gonNA do with email all of that stuff where we're going through right now so coming famous for many things and within the media industry it's famous miss for it's this sort of Confederation of magazine Editors There used to be many more of these big famous names now. There's a handful David remnant and a winter and and these people own their empires. They happen to work for Conde NAST and it's very hard for whoever is running Conde Nast to say this is the new direction quite see it that way. Is that not true anymore. You're making it not true. I think it's fair. It's a little of both. I think cutting Nassar has gone through a lot in just had had the magazine side of the business. There's two things that really stand out one. Is You know people think oh well. People aren't reading magazines or younger. People aren't reading magazines thinks that's actually not true circulation for us. Globally is about flat right. I think it's actually down one percent year over year so slight decline but not much subscriptions the growing for the New Yorker really good growth and subscription. And it's young people who are buying subscriptions what has happened is ad dollars. Have shifted away from print into digital and video and social media and things like that and so we're benefiting from that in those categories and we're losing it in the end up at the I don't shift one to one right. Everyone here knows now is that you know your your analog dollar becomes a digital quarter friends Google and facebook take most of it and most I growth happens in digital goes to them and so there's some leftover for us and companies like yours but not quite enough leftover. Let's do a little more Just stay setting right so reportedly guys lost one hundred and twenty a million last year. You can blink. There's a that was reported but that was not accurate. Okay it's a big number. Whatever it is New New York magazine? A fine magazine did a profile of you guys had a stunning line. There about you lost more money in two thousand seventeen than you made in profit in two thousand three uh-huh and if you think about it that sort of make sense and again. I think most people in this room sort of understand what happens to an analog company but this is a company that was sort of both incredibly powerful financial financial. Well it was incredibly powerful magazine business. Lots of cultural impact and it has been in some stage of decline for a while family owned business on by the new houses when this job comes to you. What is the pitch that makes you want to join an industry? You've never done before in out the magazine at a business that is declining. First of all let me just level set one thing when you say in decline print. Advertising revenue has been in decline. That is true statement if you look at overall revenue is not in decline. And if you look at what is most important to me. which is a relevance to consumers engagement with consumers commit you do skip prophets? It's growing fast right. So when when when they approached me about this it was there was we. Were getting ready to close the deal to sell Pandora and it just happened that there were a number of companies looking for CEO's all at the same time so there were four that I was talking to and it had very advanced in stages on three of them were I would consider much more in my wheelhouse and this one much farther outside of my wheelhouse but I found myself i. Can you know somewhere in California. A Foreign Submarine York. I'm flying back and forth with all of this. I just found myself sitting on the plane always going back to the materials cutting so there was something that really drew me to it and I think it was one that I really I liked problems. I like solving problems and this is a really interesting interesting one to solve too when I was doing my due. Diligence one of the things. I really wanted to understand. You know. There's the financial side but what was more important to me. Actually they was what's happening with consumers with our brands and as I got through that data I realize our engagement of consumers is growing. It's growing fast globally. I believe so then it became a strategic problem. Okay well I've got emergencies businesses and what's the right revenue model for us with all this engagement with. We have with consumers. That felt like a solvable problem. If it'd been the opposite where g you engage with consumers was in decline. That would have been in the too hard category but it's not it's actually the opposite. Do People like what you make. Your job is figuring out how to structure the business so you can be profitable because you're not profitable now. Well I I'm not gonNA comment I'm it's I'm provinces. One of the advantages of not running a public company is. I'll have to talk about that stuff but what I would say is our businesses in transition and therefore therefore when you're an industry that's in transition the only certain mistake you can make is to not change. That's the mistake every other thing. You might be a mistake but it might not but if you don't changed a certain mistake so we'll be making a lot of changes in part of it is really. We have areas that are growing very nicely for us. Asia is a region is growing very very nice China's a very important market for us. We have business lines that are growing very fast. Videos are fastest. Growing business. Line is going very very fast. We're the largest premium publisher on Youtube today and so it is about making sure that we have our resources. Aligned with our growth is but also becoming a much more integrated business so within Conde NAST previously video was sort of this business over here that existed on its own and magazines digital. Were over here in fact way way I look at it as you know at the center of our business are content creators which are predominantly royal teams and the video is one way storytelling mechanism. Awesome for us to use to reach our audiences so get much more alignment on that and we have that like brands. Like Bono Petite I think is probably the best example of that where it has A strong and growing magazine business both ad revenue subscription very strong growth in digital killing video and events. I mean that's the title l.. At whatever we do is it sells out that because to line. They have alignment Adam. Rapport is the editor. Bon Appetite is completely aligned with the video producers that worked for cutting entertainment and and it just works. I WanNa talk to the culture for a second. What is came from slaying? Prior to that you'd been dish on four Charlie Ergen he's been on the stage and that's a whole different kind of boss really obvious question. What's the difference between the Pandora Culture? In the Conde nast culture I'd say Pandora and Cardenas are more similar than dishes sling. TV are those. And I I worked for Charlie probably the toughest smartest guy ever worked for. It was great. I mean I learned a lot and I appreciate I went there to build what ultimately became sling. TV and it was a really fun thing to do. But you know I think Pandora and cutting ass both really value creativity and creators. You're within Pandora. We didn't have to think about producing the content. We license it from music. Industry County next. We produce all of our own content so one of the big changes eighteen hundred people who are producing content as editors and journalists around the globe and so. That's quite a significant change but journalists are paying the ass right. Some are. Yeah that was a Freebie got my answer. Do have the sense that the pen Dora employees probably had different expectations about their workplace in what they did then maybe a conde nast editor or maybe. They're maybe they're closer together. Then I think now there's by the way we talk about cutting us the really were to Conde Nast and they had very different cultures. The international business was one conde NAST and it really operated as a loose federation of independent companies around the world so each of these markets that we operate around the world the managing director and all all of the infrastructure and they made their own decisions and they were sort of managed by monthly pl was not an integrated business and so we're integrating not integrated into the US and the US had a very different culture a more. I'd say competitive and individual Listrik. Yeah Yeah and and so. We're making a lot of changes. I mentioned to you backstage. All of this has been announced but we have quite a lot of executive the changes that by the end of the year. Finish the appointments. We'll have a ten person executive team seven of whom will be new in the last twelve months and part of that is about effecting culture change is there culture you want to move from two is the thing that you want a conde nast employed to be thinking about or embracing that they weren't doing you know like my structural stuff but nobody your mindset. Change that you want from the. Yeah it's for the executive team it starts with team really and that that to be found in my career that I'm everybody has different styles and so there's not. There's not one answer that that's the right answer for everyone but for me for my style. I have to have a team. I have to have people who have each other's back and are willing to challenge each other. But you know it a safe way. And that's something that will be creating with the executive tame we have there and then I have to get. We're going to have alignment with what the growth opportunities are within our business and the comment. I made about editorial where it was really treated there over here and video businesses over here you never know. That's that needs to be much more line and then within within international in the US you know it's like it's a what does it mean to be a global company for us. Let me ask questions. That are really cultural questions as much much as their organizational questions. Hey this is Peter. I'm going to pause this conversation so we can hear from the sponsor I'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by the new. Hbo Traumatic Sick Fantasy series. His dog materials and exhilarating fantastical ride through worlds that lie beyond our own following the braves quest of Lyra. The young woman desperate to rescue her kidnap friend trouble with Lyra as she embarks on an unforgettable journey uncovers an evil plot touch by a secret organization and encounters exceptional beings that literally out of this world based on the smash hit trilogy written by celebrated fantasy and adventure novelist Philip pullman. His dark materials feels features. A star-studded cost with forgettable performances. From Daphne Keen Ruth Wilson James mcevoy and Lin Manuel Miranda new episodes at every Monday night. It's at nine PM Eastern on HBO. And if you still need to catch up episodes one through four streaming right now across. HBO's streaming platforms his dark materials. The truth flies beyond the world now back to a conversation from Code Media Business Strategy Question Everyone in publishing shing has now put up a digital paywall just about we still have an at recode but you never know. I think it's always gonNA be free but an initially. This was news when the New York Times put up a digital paywall and hosted media. PODCAST would come on to tell me about their pay wall strategy now now everyone essentially has when you guys have them throughout your magazines. I understand why you WANNA ask consumers to pay for stuff. They're they're reading enjoying but the really obvious question is aren't they being asked to pay too much dauphin. Aren't they going to stop paying for the new titles that are putting up. Pay Walls I think could sooners are will oh pay for the things that they value and I think within our industry we have a disproportionate number of the brands. That consumers are willing to pay for and so when we look at brands like the New Yorker or wired or Vanity Fair each of them are growing their subscriptions each of them are head of budget growing subscriptions this year. And I think we're we're frankly quickly just scratching the surface. Because I talked about the you know the history of counting asa mentioned tech stack earlier. You know if you looked at tech stack you would see really a print business embedded in the middle of our tech stock and so re architect that is quite important because the way most consumers engage with us today is through digital or even if they want to order a print magazine you know we should be serving them digital content immediately rather than telling them that they'll get their magazine in six weeks or whatever but in the in the olden days of magazine subscriptions. A lot of those Christians were deeply discounted. Even if you're paying you're paying very little it was an ad business with circulation we'd spending most of the day yesterday yesterday talking about unbundling re bundling streaming words WHO's GonNa pay for all this content so I'm not just deciding whether or not to pay for G. Q.. Wired New Yorker also so thinking about Hulu in Disney plus spotify. They all have reasonable. Asked me but you've added up and even though I'm GonNa pay what I want. We'll we'll pay for things I value in the end. I have a limited amount of money. So I'm wondering how you think about that wall. When does that wall hit a consumer? And then how do you convince them that it is worth paying for that. And do you think of different offers and bundles. You can offer them. Yeah I do believe that the unbundling which I've been part of you know when I when I launch sling. TV that was really the reason we didn't put all the local channels and all the regional sports networks and everything in sling TV was specifically this reason. Because we we're trying to unbundle had become too big bundle we saw growth in net flicks and we saw people buying digital tennis locals. Said what's billed this service. It fits like a puzzle piece in between digital antenna and Net flicks and that consumers create their own bundles. And they'll add Hulu or whatever other services they want and and you know it grew pretty nicely from that you know as things continue to become unbundled. You'll reach a saturation point. Where each of the people running those businesses? The people that are responsible for acquiring subscribers if it's a subscription supported are going to say it's getting too expensive to acquire subscribers now. I need to think about new models and those new models I believe we're GONNA lead to re bundling I do believe in that. So is there a bundle. You're GONNA sell me because of the number of titles that we have and the ones the people are willing to pay for. There may be an opportunity for that. We haven't decided anything on that but but one of the things that you mentioned are focused. Conde nast being advertisers that it is true if you look at the history of Conde Nast. It was about editorial excellence and focus on advertisements. Those were the key pillars. There's a third pillar that we're adding now which is consumers and and so we're going to be appointing a CMO that is very consumer marketing oriented CMO to really lead all of our consumer activities because we are finding consumers are willing to pay for interacting with our brands but again culturally. We need to move from. We're focused on editorial advertisers just to an equal focus on consumer so. There is a big magazine. Bundle out there now. Apple Apple News plus ten or fifteen bucks a month. I should know because I'm paying for ten dollars dollars a month and basically gives every magazine in the world. It seems I'm getting. It seems like a good proposition for me. Seems like a not good proposition for you. The apple pitch has been. We're GONNA sell hundreds of millions of subscriptions and don't worry that you're getting a slice fifty cents on the dollar. We're going to sell lots of dollars. What do you think about that business business? I think the jury's out I think that it has the paid side of it had some adoption and apple. Will I think. Continue to focus on that whether it's good for publishers like us or not is to be determined because join yeah. I was going to ask you about this deal you inherited inherited yes. Do you have the option to get out of it or you locked in for. I won't talk about the terms of the deal other than to say that we do have over time. We have options Are you seeing the effect. I mean it's report out. I think from CNBC last week and says they had two hundred thousand subs or they started two hundred thousand dollars in a barely added any. I'm one of them I I. I don't subscribe to G Q and wired even though I read those things and it's kind of hard to go and find the articles but I'll do it if I want to. Are there. Many people like me who you can track who are hitting your paywall going Apple News. Plus reading it they're not subscribing. Now we haven't seen that effect that will be difficult effect back to measure but if you look at like the earlier comment I made if you look at some of our publications that I don't like the term paywall because it's not consumer friendly but ah paid model around it. They're all frankly outperforming their head of budget on subscription. And so when you say the jury's out on Apple News plus and you're not sure if you're going to renew when you're not worried at least right now about the cannibalization effect that I just described. There's like ten of me out I worry about it. We have not seen anything to indicate that that's happening yet. But but it's too early to tell and I hope that Apple News plus is wildly successful and becomes a great distribution channel for us and we can make a lot a lot of money from. I think it's too early to tell. Let's talk about TV. That was to businesses ago for useful and said you launch slaying. Was this really interesting idea. Twenty bucks a month. I so sort of thought of it as ESPN on demand. You could get the main attraction. They took off pretty quickly. And I think most of the digital bundles the growth now has really really slowed. All you're telling me slang still going up just reported I think last week or two and they grew a couple hundred thousand jobs in the quarter so the new conventional conventional wisdom is the core. Cutting is going to continue to increase in these new digital bundles. Slaying Youtube TV. Who are not GonNa take up that slack and let's go go down and like Michael? Nathan's point yesterday. They're raising prices. So it's even becoming less appealing so as someone who's been in and out of the TV business. Where do you think that goes when we launched sling? TV was the first of those services to launch. And we could have launched it much. Earlier I mentioned is reason I joined joined. Charlie was to launch that and it took us a long time. You get the content rights but the reason it took us so long is because we were unwilling to just recreate the big bundle. If we'd been willing to take the packages that dish has on its satellite and just put them on the Internet. We could probably could launch. Oh you're too earlier than Franken. This is the same business. They don't care whether that satellite or Triaud S- or but our but our belief from the beginning. was that if you do that. You just end up in the same place at the big TV. Bundles are which is they're too expensive. And you've seen that now. You've seen the latest announcement on price increases. These bundles now are fifty five. Sixty dollars something like that. So they're approaching the full pay. TV Bundle whereas sling did do a price increase but the twenty dollar package is now twenty five dollars and you know there's there's good margin in that business and so there's actually more margin. I believe in slings bundles. Then there are those big bundles that are fifty five dollars because they throw everything in again. In some cases you've got like a Viacom to give you one channel because Viacom was weakened position. Do you think that other folks are going to follow follow links lead and create these actually skinny bundles or is it. Just not something that networks are willing to do. I think it'd be very tough for someone to come in and do it now because they have gotten all the others to do the big bundles. I think it's very unlikely that the big channel owners are going to hand out deals like they did when we did they were Jill. Israel's linked thematically we keep talking about this idea bundles and unbundling and asking consumers to pay. You're asking consumers to pay and the TV networks are asking consumers to pay more and more and more it just doesn't seem sustainable and it seems no matter what industry you're in and you can tell yourself you've got the most love content and Fox will say they've got really important on and on and on everyone will say for their brand is important in the end you're gonNA hit a wall. which is Americans have a limited amount of money to spend? They might have less money to spend in the future and this idea of asking them all to pay is not going to work. I think that they're not remember. If you're starting in on pay TV was the average household was paying one hundred dollars a month for pay TV and they were paying for broadband. And they're paying for Netflix. All of that. There's actually a big pot there. They were spending already if you take. The music industry's example in nine hundred ninety nine. The music industry was bigger than it is. Today reported music industry. You're seeing seeing all the growth and everybody's talking about spotify and growth in the labels are making all this money actually was a bigger industry in nineteen ninety nine that is today so consumer Sumer behavior has changed they're not buying their renting it content. But it's now feeding ecosystem in a way that gives consumers much more of what they want so the business models those will change in old change. How consumers pay for things? I think you know when when we launched sing TV the I would ask the question. What do you think's GonNa Happen? attritional bundles I think they're about one hundred million at the time I said I think in five years they'll be sixty five million was my guess and that they'll be tens of millions of these smaller bundles streaming services. So you think the American consumer is going to pay the same amount net that they've been paying for the last few years they're just going to choose how to destroy. I actually think they may pay more. Because they'll be able to buy what they want. That's the big differences is that you actually get. It's one thing if you're paying one hundred dollars and you're getting five hundred channels and you watch seven of them. You feel like I'm being ripped off like why am I paying for all these John's but if I can actually pay for the things I want and consume more of what I want if you look again back to music music consumption assumption. Even though the industry was bigger music consumption is way way bigger than it was nine hundred ninety nine. I think a lot about who in the fact that they've got an ad free option and most people people in four dollars more so obviously anyone in this room is going to get that if they can. But they so way more ad-supported subscriptions that are four dollars. Cheaper part of it I think as we can ask about they haven't actually marketed. The AD free option that much but part of it is people want to say four bucks a month and to me that's a big flag saying All of you guys who were asking me to pay for this and this and this or are going to bump into reality sure is going to get people to pay for it and so back to to my business us I think we have a disproportionate number of brands. That people are willing to pay for. Okay I have not in the fact that you know for mean entitles where people subscribe. All of them are a budget enrolling subscribers. This year I have more questions but I wanted to open it up to you guys. There's here there is a Mike upstairs for you. Guys who are lurking working up there. Does anyone ask the condie and ask a question. Maybe some of his employees Roger Kelly from womenswear. I have two questions actually one. It kind of sounds like the strategy around the pay walls. Maybe has changed. Are you still going to put every magazine behind to pay well as it was originally announced. Or is it just focus on the core Kinda four properties that are already there and also. How many magazines do you think conde? He will publish in five years. First of all just to level set. We have thirty eight brands today. In thirty one markets. They're not all magazines some are digital. It'll only and some of the interesting so if you take a couple of our digital only like self as example we do some publication itself but self is a magazine that I think three years ago stopped the regular monthly publication and the press. That came out about that. was you know. Gee It's closing self self has been phenomenal success for us. It makes more money today as the digital only than it did. As a print magazine audiences have been growing very rapidly. That's an example of one that has made that transition very effectively. Really we have others like glamour that have done similar things so there may be others that That make that transition at some point I think the core titles that we have if you know vogue and New Yorker and vanity fair and G. Q. and architectural digest wire. These are titles that I can't imagine them not being imprint. So but the thirty eight different brands that we have. There'll be a mix of one's that'll be imprint ones it'll be a digital and video and other areas that we we we have and what was the rest of your question so more will go over the years though. Basically is what you're saying. Sorry more magazines will go digital only over the years. I don't know I think that And I think we have. We have a playbook that has shown how magazines can be successful as digital only but I think it depends on the type of content that that that exists for the for the magazine and so again. It's possible but right now I think we've got a pretty good balance. And then the other question question was around the paywall strategy all of them in front so I think getting consumers to pay for content. There's no single single right answer. It's not you just put this paywall in front of all these consumers and for every title that you have on if you think about the spectrum of titles that we have on one extreme maybe the The new Yorker where the vast majority of the revenue for the New Yorker is subscription. That's a natural title to promote that some of our other brands like them which is TQ younger brand. That would be a different strategy. You wouldn't just say you got to pay for that content and so I think there's a whole spectrum and that is different for each title and by the way it's not just title by title it's actually need to think about consumer by consumer because if you're really operating you know as as a state of the art you really interact with consumers in different ways so we treat you differently than we treat Peter because whatever data we have about you may make a different offer to versus. What would you do for Peter? Thank you thank you. Hi Laurie Keith. From the Ad Council. How are you you talk a bit about video and how that seems to be a very big growth driver for you? How are you thinking about video in terms of production? Are you going to be producing for all of your titles distribution bution in terms of advertising. Can you talk a little about maybe a branded content studio just curious sure. Maybe what I should real quickly. Just explain what we do in video. Today it's really in four areas. WE HAVE AD supported video which is on youtube and our own sites. And other sites that distribute. That's the largest and fastest growing part of the business. We have branded content where we have studios all around the world. We produce content for our brand partners. We have long form television where we have love shows. I think we've sold eight or nine shows the net flicks and other distributor around the world. Then we have feature film business and so within that. I think we're really just scratching the surface again if you think about thirty eight brands in thirty one markets eighteen hundred people producing content. We're getting much more organized around how we take all of that. Ip and look for opportunities with it or start creating new around that video. I think remains one of the biggest opportunities for us across the whole spectrum. The different way people are discovering content. These days is often through the social channels and recommendations and I get I see snippets of articles that I'm really fascinated by. I probably don't think there's enough in it to warrant a subscription. How are you managing getting people in with more than just the so? You have three articles you can read this month and then you need to subscribe. Is there something I'd happily pay a buck. Time to read thirty or forty articles across your spectrum. Move of titles. Look I think if you look at one of the companies. I think has done this really well. As the New York Times I think markets here took today that before today yesterday and what they the way I look at what they've done is two things broadly they segment of the market and look at what consumers are willing to pay for and what format they're willing to pay for and the innovated around new products that they charge consumers for and it's it's worked quite well for them. I think we have a similar opportunity times. The number of brands that we have but it does require a stab capabilities. That are different from the capabilities. We have had historically and so there's a lot that we have to do on the technology side. There's lot we have to do on the marketing side and building up some of these capabilities which were the hard at work doing so that we can then start to innovate around the consumer offers. That we do. You're talking about the product she's talking about discovery and how you're gonNA find well talking about different in payment models for content and can we innovate around. I view that question is can we price discover in segment. The market how consumers are willing to pay for our content and for us to be able to do that effectively. We gotta fix them things. I got to build some capabilities that we don't have that were we. Were building the process of building and then that will enable us to start innovating around how the different models that reengage consumers but also to and that was my question but also to the point about discovery and taught tells some amazing stories about how you get so much more content out of one article now with little snippets that will guide paypal in. So it's interesting to hear about the social strategy of two other including more hooks into the content. Right Roger. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you very much. This episode is sponsored by. HBO's drilling new series his dock materials based on the well bending trilogy from fantasy and adventure novelist Philip pullman. His dark materials is an epic coming page story set in a world far beyond our own a world where one soul lives outside one's body a world full of unimaginable creatures from other planes of existence. Well with an Almond Pony journeying through this magical world is Lyra a bold young woman searching for her kidnapped friend along the way she uncovers the secret organizations tablecloths and learns that she's capable of anything his dark materials features a phenomenal cost with. Daphne Keen Ruth Wilson James mcevoy and Lin Manuel. Miranda you episode every Monday night at nine pm eastern on H._B._O.. And you can stream episodes one through full right now on H._B._O.. And streaming pat folds his dark materials. The truth lies beyond the world we know.