SPI 411: 5 Market Must-Haves when Building a Business that will Succeed, with Ryan Levesque
Whether you have a business already or you're about to start when it's really important that you understand is the market that you are serving viable for a long term business model. Is it actually possible for you to succeed and make money in that space? Well that's what we're going to talk about today with Special Guest Ryan Leveque. You might know him as the author of Ask in previous guests in episode one hundred and seventy eight here on the ESPN podcast. But today we're talking about market viability. These five special qualities or characteristics of markets and different tools that you can use to understand whether or not it's viable and secondly we're going to have you understand actually play a little game with us to know what type of entrepreneur you are and every type has its own dark side and it's important to know that so that you know what to look out for and what might be your weakness and had a break out of that this and more in today's episode stick around welcome to the smart passive income. Podcast where it's all about working hard now so you can sit back and read the benefits later and now your host. Thanks poop. Jokes aren't the best. But there is solid number two pad Flynn so i WanNa talk to you about the future. Not just because obviously I'm a huge back to the future fan but because in the future I think a lot of things are going to be about the soft skills that you have right. I'm trying to teach my kids this. It's not just about the knowledge that you have in your head or the skills that you have and typing away on the keyboard. It's the soft skills like collaboration adaptability. Creativity I say collaboration. That's okay. It's that important. I have to say twice but when it comes to your business You know hiring the right people is one of the best ways to grow and when it comes to hiring people a lot of people assume we'll have to find the people with the right skills and that's kind of important but I also feel like more important are those soft skills and what's really cool is linked in jobs screens candidates for both hard and soft skills to help you grow your business and hire the right person fast and like. I said things like creativity adaptability collaboration they screen for that stuff and allows you to find the qualified candidates. You need who match your business requirements perfectly? And that's how Lincoln make sure your job post when you need. A person is seen by everybody that that would be perfect for you skills qualifications but also those soft skills. It's no wonder a person's hired every eight seconds on linked in which is insane so find the right person for your business today with linked in jobs. You can pay what you want and get the first fifty dollars off to visit linked in dot com slash S. I again that's linked in dot com slash. Sti To get fifty dollars off your first job. Post terms and conditions apply. What's up everybody pamphlet here and welcome to choose session. Four hundred and eleven of smart passive income podcast. My Name is Pat. Flynn here to help you. Make more money saved more time and help more people to and today. We're talking with our Special Guest Ryan. Leveque who I mean. This is a golden commerce. This is going to be one of those episodes that I know I'm going to say hey if you're in business and you haven't listened to this like this is mandatory listening for you so you're in the right spot. Put that phone away. Listen this is going to be a great one. Let's do it here. We Go Ryan. Welcome back to the smart passive income podcast. Thanks for being here in hats often be here super pumped beach with you again man. The last time you were on was over two hundred episodes ago. One seventy eight. It was one of our most popular episodes because he talked about the ask formula for people who maybe didn't listen to that exactly. What is the ASS formula? Why is it so important and I'll talk about how it's affected me in my business after that. Yeah for sure so the ask. Method is a methodology to understand your market at a deep emotional level. You can ultimately better serve that market and then also better sell to that market and the idea behind it is if you understand your market better than they even understand themselves then you can deliver solutions to what it is that they need and sell to them in a way where you're marketing your messaging resonates with them at a deep level. So ask is all about that. And it's all about also identifying the different buckets that exist in your market so in every single market doesn't matter what market you're in there are different groups of people that have slightly different needs wants desires and the challenge when you sell online. Is that when you try to be all things to all people you end up being nothing to nobody and by identifying the different buckets that exist in your market you can segment people and then serve them the best message and the best product. That's a right fit for them. And so I ask is really just a framework to implement that process in your business online right and it's about asking the right questions which you set up really nicely in the book and I took that and I implemented it and right away started the immediate results number one. We started to notice that there were indeed different pockets of people in our audience and that was a huge realization to me. I mean on a implementation level. We had one email list that we were just sending the same email to every time once. I started to see that there were different levels of people and different experiences. That people were having under my brand at S. P. I. It was like Whoa like this advanced. Seo Article that we came out with has like shouldn't even reach the beginners and vice versa. Things that we're for beginners shouldn't even be seen by the more advanced segment yet. We were just putting everybody into one bucket which is sort of the most common thing so immediately we started to run some surveys. Using the question. The frameworks that you had especially that. I think the number one question was what's the number one biggest challenge. You have related to blink and what we did what you teach us to take. Those answers literally just regurgitate them back to everybody and the responses. And I've told you this before. Just people were like. How do you know like you don't be better than I know myself? And Oh my gosh. I found the right person. Like you understand and like like what like what you said if you can show that you understand them better than they can. They're going to automatically assume that. Well you must have the answers to so just a big heartfelt. Thank you from myself my team for helping us sort of create this framework of how to better surveillance. It's made us more money. It's made us have a higher email open rain and just number one just allowed to connect better with everybody. So thank you for that. You know I I love that and you know what makes me happiest is just the impact that you're having right. I'm GonNa huge fan of your staff since before we knew each other personally like I was a listener. I was a customer like for years before that and just to see the impact that you're having to be able to reach more people like that to me is you know. That's the reward right there so super happy about that man. Thank you so that book is called. Ask with probably the longest subtitle I've ever seen in a book but that's okay like at any time. Anybody comes to me. And he goes pat one. Write a book. I I need to make the subtitle short and sweet. I'm like you don't need to make it shortly. Get Ryan's Book. One word title right when you have a one word title. You need a subtitled to back it up. So people know like what the heck the book is actually about. Can you cite the subtitle to that? I'm sure you haven't memorized. Put me on the spot attitude at all about the. I don't put me on the spot. It's the longest funny funny story about that. I'm in talks with my publisher now for releasing a revised edition of the book. Not Saying that we're working on right now and we'll be coming out with that in a little over a year from now and that's one of the biggest topics is that they came to me said. Ryan we have to shorten the subtitle on the second version of the books up. It was the first book I ever wrote. And Gosh I mean I don't know if you think back to your first book like just there's so many things you don't know when you're writing a book. There's so many lessons that you learn and that's like one of you know a list of a thousand things that you know do different next time around. Sure subtitles so yeah well. We'll get to that new version whenever IT COMES OUT. Let me know because it has been impactful for me and there's some big things happening in it. Were changing some of the framework that we teach. So we you remember the concept of hyper responsive so going those people that give you those long. Passionate detailed response is really focusing on that segment of the market. That's like you know akin to your superfan concept like these are super fans when they're like or their heart out you and they and they really have a lot going on what we've revised we find that formula to also incorporate not just the length of response that people give you but also measuring how much time they've spent trying to solve the problem that you're asking about and how much money they've invested in their life to try to solve that problem with that. There's an algorithm that helps you identify. The precise pocket of people who have spent money spent time and have a burning desire to solve that problem. That is what you want to focus everything in your business around your messaging your products and everything else. So that's just about a dozen sort of refinements and enhancements that are coming around the corner so I'll tease you with that for before the the book comes out now. I I like that a lot. I can see that working really well. I have a lot of students who asked me pat like I have the segment of my audience that I really wanNA focus on. But which one should I actually have a conversation with and you know I think having the people who have spent money's a good thing because you know that they've tried and there were perhaps willing to try and work with you to solve that problem is you can fix it for them. They're likely going to be the most outspoken people to spread that message for you even more. So thank you. For mentioning a super fans I think. A lot of my kinds of content. In your kinds of consonant blend. Well together and I think that's where Your News Book Choose. Fits really nicely and so one word title again. Not Ask but choose now. A little bit shorter subtitle. But what is the Sort of Hypothesis here what what? What is this book for? Yeah you know so so when I when I release ask again I I'm author. I had no idea what to expect. I put it out there and again. The book is really about understanding your audience. How to how to ask the right questions to understand what it is your audience truly wants and what I struggled with is after the book literally hundreds of thousands of people around the world publishing all these different languages. I kept coming back to the fact that some people would come to me and they'd write me these heartfelt letters and they say Ryan was huge out of the book. But I tried what you taught and it didn't work and when something like that happens it's sort of like a sucker punch in the gut. It's like well what did I do wrong and so I did some deep reflection and looked at what am I missing? What are the gaps in the methodology? What's what's missing and what ended up happening is I saw that. There is a trend and all roads kept pointing to the same direction. And that's this People were following the methodology to the tea. And they're still failing because of one reason and that one reason was that they were choosing bad markets meaning. They were following the process of asking what people want. Identifying the hyper spots of segmented the market but they are going into markets that had no chance of succeeding in the first place and the metaphor that I use on a show. This in the book I think is really helpful. It sorta like this. It's like when you start a business you can. It's like tossing your your raft in a river and you can have the best wrath. Money can buy you the best equipment you can hire a crew to row in that raft with you but if you put your raft in the river and it's pointed in the wrong direction or worse yet you put your Raft River. That doesn't have any water in it. It doesn't matter how hard you row. How good you're you're never GonNa get to your destination. You're never gonNA get to that place that you want to go. And what I realize is that I'd given people the best raft in equipment but I did not teach them how to find the right river. The Right River for you the river. That's not too big not too small. The river that has a current that propels you forward as opposed to paddling upstream in China. You know do it on your own how to find that river and So I went on a three year research project. really identify. What does it mean to have a market that is going to set you up for success and the book is really all about the data and empirical study that? I went through looking at the twenty-three businesses that that I've started since I've been doing this for twenty three different markets that we've gone into all sorts of different weird niches researching the business that my clients have gone into again in all sorts of different markets and trying to identify. What are the trends like if you were to boil it down? It's easy for you and I to say we'll pick a good market right. But what does that mean exactly and much like ask? It's very analytical approach to measuring things like pre existing demand measuring things like size of the market and. What is the right size market? That's not too big and not too small. But how do you measure that as ring things? Like what are the criteria your market should have? And what is the sort of the checklist of things that you're looking for before you die right and and that's what the book is all about. It's all about how to pick the right market before you start your business. Which I claimed in this book is the single. Most important decision one needs to make. When you're starting your business is who you're going to serve for sure. I mean I've written about similar things in willow fi obviously business validation. And how did you that and I think what I love about your book and your take on it is it can work in conjunction with the things I teach and we'll fly very well and you. On the more data data driven analytical side of things I think with those powers combined I think you can make some magic happen where I focused on and will it fly to start. The book was really on before we even get into the figuring out of which river to get into or income stream. If you will sorry well. How much does this idea or that potential market make sense for you as a person so? I'm curious to know where you before we get into like I wanNA know with what analytics to look at it. I want to know how do you determine the market viability from a data standpoint? But where do you lie on the spectrum of well it needs to also be something that you're interested in or quote unquote as we often say passionate about? How much does that matter when it comes to? Choosing an engineer is what I found is that to be successful in business. You really need to things you need something. That has the potential to be profitable but it also needs to fuel. Your soul needs to fill your bank account but it needs to fuel your soul as well if you don't have both of those things in conjunction with one another. Eventually you're going to you're going to give up. You're going to move onto something else because if you're not fulfilled you're going to say. This is just a holloway to make money. And if you're not making any money you're going to have to you know you're GONNA have to get a job right. Would you make money? And so what I've found in the in the research that he did is that they're really four different types of people that I've found who wanNA start a business that's what I call the four different entrepreneurial types and the first type is what we call a mission based entrepreneur now mission base as I go through these. If you're listening to this or watching this right now what encourage you to do is just to reflect on? Which of these four types do you most identify with if you had to pick just one so paddle? I'll I'll throw it out your way but anyone else listening to this as well. We'll play fun little game so the first type of entrepreneurs what we call the mission based entrepreneur michigan-based entrepreneurs are drawn to starting a business because they have a cause that they're passionate about. It's a IT'S A. It's a cause that they would die on a hill for it's a Christie. Kennedy is an example that I talk about in the book so Christie is is a is a mom who has a son who is autistic and he was bullied in school as a young boy and so as a mom decided that she had to do something about so she went to the school and and started to Get involved and and one thing led to another and she started developing a program to help eliminating bullying from her child school. Which led the school district ask if she would do it for the entire school district which led the state ask if she'd do it for the entire state which led to helping over two thousand schools around the country With a program that she's developed to eliminate bullying in elementary schools. Now she's an example of that mission based entrepreneur someone who's drawn to move people away from something negative in life and then build a business around it and it's in contrast with the second type of entrepreneur which is the passion based Entrepreneur Passion based entrepreneurs tend to have something that they're passionate about. It's like a hobby or love whether it's Back to the future and delorean's or a Lego or playing the guitar or learning how to paint or whatever it may be. They've got something that they love that they're passionate about in their life and they want to transform that. Passion into their vocation. So examples are like Charlie Wallace Charlie. A hotel in the Book Charlie. Traveling is part about heavy metal rock band and to make a little bit of extra money. Start Teaching people how to play Guitar Online while he ended up growing that into a business that makes over two million dollars a year. They just released their first. Lp and it landed on the billboard charts the hard rock billboard charts number thirteen. You know named one of the top thirty entrepreneurs under the age of thirty by Forbes and he's just on this rocket ship and it all started with this passion around playing guitar that he transformed into his business. So that's the passion based now. The difference between the two are mission based entrepreneurs typically want to move people away from something negative in Life Passion Base Entrepreneurs WanNa move people towards something positive that they love. Those are both in contrast with the third type of entrepreneur which is the most classic entrepreneur in the sense of the word which is the opportunity based entrepreneur opportunity based entrepreneurs don't necessarily have a mission or passion that they're drawn to. They're the type of person that sees opportunity everywhere right. They're the type of person that says. How is it that nobody's built a collapsible stand to hold a camera when you're traveling so you can shoot southie videos like how is it that nobody is built something like this? Let's create that right so opportunity based entrepreneurs tend to see gaps in the marketplace in? Ask themselves that question. How's it that nobody's done this and the fourth and final type of entrepreneurs actually the type of entrepreneur that I consider myself to be and it's what we call the undecided entrepreneur now. The entrepreneur is someone who knows they. WanNa start a business. They know they want to go into business for themselves but they just don't know what that would be like. They're in love with the idea being their own boss having their own business making their own hours having that freedom but as far as what type of business or what market to go into their really undecided. Now that's who I was when I first got started in anyone in that situation. What I recommend is the prescription is to start what I call a practice business now just like learning how to drive a car. Most of US didn't learn how to drive a car in our dream. Car are forever car right like we learned an old beater like for me. It was an old you know as an old jeep. Rusted out floor stick shift. That's what I learned at a drive. But here's the thing. The skill of driving learning that skill to drive a car is something that you carry with you for the rest of your life so even if that first business that you start. Isn't your Dream Business. You're forever business. You're learning the skills. You're learning the steps just like learning how to drive your learning the process that you can transfer into your forever business for me. That unlocked this anxiety and that I had around having to pick the perfect business that was GonNa last that next twenty five years and so the first business I started was teaching people how to make scrabble tile jewelry by combining scrabble tiles from the game and Origami paper. Definitely not my forever business but it was a way to make money and learn the steps of building a website and writing emails and setting up ads online. And all the things that you need to learn. So I'm curious Before we go any further pat of those four and by the way we all have elements of all of them like we all have elements of album. I'm curious which of those four of you had to pick one most resonates with. Who who you are. I mean for me when I first started my lead exam. Business website to help people pass in architectural exam was definitely an opportunity based business. I saw a huge hole net market and I built something in an did very well. Obviously and then I started to see. Well I want to help other people and show people the positive that can come when you break out of the nine to five whether it's something unhappy with or you get laid off from like me and I want to show people the positive. That's that's in there. That's I feel where I'm at. I have this passion now for helping people and that's become my business In all kinds of different ways. I don't know if you would agree with that or not. But that's I think that's I think it's really perceptive and one of these that you pointed out there is that as you've grown in the last decade plus you we evolve like we all change like none of us are static and so for for someone listening to this right now. You may have been a certain type years ago when you may have evolved into a different sort of entrepreneurial type as you've had more experience and so I think that's really perceptive and interesting so yeah so to answer your original question around this passion or prophets like what's most important. Here's the thing to know. Each of these four has shadow side is a shadow side to watch out for and the shadow side is neither. None of these types is better than the others. They're all it's their agnostic that it just it is what it is but they each have a shadow side and I'll share what I mean by that. So mission based entrepreneur you fall into that mission based bucket the thing that you need to watch out for mission based entrepreneurs tend to struggle with making money. They're so drawn to the mission that they have in life that they put making money as being secondary to that mission and so they end up building a business. That doesn't give them what they want out of life. It doesn't allow them to have the freedom they want or make the impact relieved the legacy that they want because they're so drawn to the mission and they struggle with charging for what it is that they WANNA do. Pasha based entrepreneurs tend to tend to fall in love with their passion and building. A business around it runs the risk of becoming a leading to you to become dispassionate about that thing like for example if you love painting and you build a business around teaching people how to paint and suddenly that's Your J. O. B. That's your job and you need to make money doing that. You can lose the love that you once had about painting and so you need to be careful around that thing opportunity based entrepreneurs need to be careful that you don't just and maybe you experience this in the lead exam business where it's a way to make money but one day you wake up and you ask yourself and you say how am I doing with my life like. Is this really what I was put on this earth to do and you wake up one day and say yeah. I've made some good money doing this. But is this my calling and you sort of have this year this crisis of identity that can happen and the undecided entrepreneur. The thing that you need to watch out there is The just analysis paralysis it just swimming in that forever. See of maybe this business. Maybe that business. Maybe this business. Maybe that is a never actually picking something and taking the steps to move forward so once you kind of identify who you are you can be aware of the shadow side to watch out for just notice those signs in you that can hold you back from doing what it is that you WanNa do. That's amazing thank you for that breakdown. Man I'm going to chop it up. Put It on Youtube because that was freaking amazing. Thank you for that. And hopefully somebody listening to this can identify and perhaps even empathize with the struggles that they may be having and just knowing that you're not alone but these are common things but how might choose your book sort of help a person. No matter which category they fit in. Let's get into it. Sure Yeah so you know there's this perception that when you're starting a business. The single most important decision to make is what like? What am I going to sell? What's my business model going to be? But the reality is the most important decision is not what it's who. Who are you going to serve and really? That's what the book is all about. So it doesn't really matter if your mission based passion based Opportunity based undecided. We need to begin by asking ourselves the question. Who are we going to serve? That is the foundation on which your business is built in. So in your case pat you know. Who Do you serve you? Serve entrepreneurs aspiring entrepreneurs. That is that is your who right. That is the that is the single most important decision. What you do from there whether you have a podcast of course on affiliate marketing a book on. You know will it. Fly Book Super Fans whatever it may be the most important decision the. Who IS THE FOUNDATION? Which all other things are built right. If you're who was people learning how to play guitar you could do all the things you're doing. You can have a podcast. You can have multiple books. You could have courses. You can have all of those things but it just a different. It's a different. Who Different type of person that you're serving now. Turns out that there are certain characteristics that makes a market one that has the potential to be successful and one that has the potential a good chance to fail and I discovered this by going through as I mentioned earlier. Three years of research really reverse engineering every single one of the businesses that we've gone into so I've gone into markets as obscure as teaching people how to make jewelry or could care how to improve your memory selling high end. Water filtration systems beekeeping. Teaching People Tennis Teaching People. Golf weight-loss Fitness Fish Oil supplements I've gone into all these different spaces and not all of these businesses have been as successful as the rest. Some have been like home runs and others have been like total failures. And so what? I was looking at where. What were the common traits that made the home run businesses super successful and what were the common traits that made the failures not as successful and what I discovered? Is that there are five. Factors five things that you want to look for and what I'd love to do now. Just two people with success is to share what those five factors are so the business idea that you might be thinking about in the back of your mind whether your mission based passion based undecided or an opportunity base. The idea that you have in your mind you can run it through these filters and pat even for you as you're going through this but what might even be fun as if we pick one of the things that you've got going on. I know before you hopped on. We're talking about like there's you've got like a million things going on so if we just pick one of them just as an example and just kind of run it through this filter of these five key what we call market must house and just ask yourself. How many boxes does that idea check off? Does it checkoff all five? Four three two one and anyone at home watching or listening to this right now. I'd encourage you to do the same thing. Just think about that idea that you've been kind of thinking about in your mind or you have an existing business. Just ask yourself. How many of these boxes does that idea checkoff? So we'll start with the first one first. One is what we call. I'm going to pick the scope. I by the way just as an example new business that we're in physical product very specific who the WHO being will people who shoo video and we'll just go for them. So I'm you know use me as a guinea pig and everybody else play on. Please awesome good as a perfect example so first thing that I like to look forward market must have number one. Is You WANNA look for? What's called an evergreen market? What do I mean by that? While I mentioned a little bit earlier that the first business I started was teaching people. How to make scrabble tile jewelry and it was the first thing I I started. Got into that business because my wife one day came home. You know before we had started our business and I would you know was having dinner conversations with her with all sorts of crazy business ideas every single day like how about this and how about that and how about this and eventually when she said all right how about this and she showed me this brand new website. Is this two thousand six brand new website which is a huge site nowadays but it was brand new at that time called? Oetzi DOT COM and for anyone familiar. He's like Ebay for making handmade products and she said Take a look at this jewelry that selling like crazy and it was as jewelry that combined scrabble tiles with Origami paper and a resin on top of it that made it almost looked like a glass jewel and at the time we were living in China so before I got into this online space. My last real job. I was opening up sales offices for a company in China and my wife getting her PhD at Hbu Hong Kong University. And we're in Hong Kong and she'd take a look at this thing and she said look we're in China. We have access to all the Origami paper in the world. We have access to inexpensive labor. We can manufacture this jewelry. We can import it into the United States and we can get rich and I said Okay. Honey Timeout said. I don't know that I want to like chain myself to a factory in southern China to manufacture this jewelry. Like I want you know a location independent business. I want to travel freedom all these things and so we kinda shut the door and the idea a few weeks later. I'm having again one of these conversations about this idea. What about that idea? And she said what about this turns a computer Michelle mcgann and she once again shows me at since she says what about that. Scrabble tile thing said honey. I thought we closed the door on it. And she said no no. No no no take a look. This woman is making the jewelry. She's teaching people how to make the jewelry look. She's selling this tutorial and she's teaching me how to make this jewelry now the cool thing about F C and this is a clue to finding a profitable market. The cool thing about Oetzi is you can see a person sales history you can see. Exactly how many units? They sold today yesterday the day before that so what I did I reverse engineered going back a couple months her income. How much money she was making and she was making over ten thousand dollars a month. Selling this tutorial how to teach people how to make scrabble tile jewelry so my wife bought the tutorial. It wasn't very good. It was like Microsoft Word like spelling. Mistakes was really bad. My wife learned how to make the jewelry. We built a better mousetrap. We started selling it and I you know first month. We sold a couple hundred dollars a couple thousand dollars next month. Five thousand dollars. Six thousand dollars. Eight thousand dollars. Oh my gosh brigadier rich like this is crazy. This is this is amazing and and I learned the first lesson that I wanNA share with everyone here and that's the next month. Our sales dropped to almost zero and it was at that moment that I realized that the market that we had gone into was nothing but a fad. The reason why most of us probably listening right now or wait. Scrabble tile jewelry like. What is that all about because it disappeared beanie babies or pogs or fidget spinners or any one of these things it was like a huge thing for about five minutes and then disappeared off a cliff and at this point. I had quit my job. My wife was finishing her her PhD. We had no income coming in. We had this moment where we looked at each other and said crap like now what and it led me to that first lesson which is going into an evergreen market so with that knowledge my wife and I moved back to the United States and we moved back to the United States. My Wife my wife got a job as a museum curator making forty thousand dollars a year and is just enough money to pay our living expenses in a tiny little apartment no furniture. I mean it was just very spartan living but it led me to create our next business. I said all right next business I go into. We have to go into a market. That isn't a fat and so I started doing research into one of the oldest longest lasting hobbies in America. And what I found was really interesting. Do you know what the number one hobby is in America? And it's been the number one hobby in America or number two for the last one hundred years any guesses on what it is. It's obvious when I say it but just I didn't know this when I when I did. The research. Woodworking close guarding guarding. Is the number one hobby in American? It's been it's gardening and reading guarding and reading have been the number one and number two hobbies in America for the last one hundred years and so I said okay. So that's something that's not going away. It's not like scrabble tiles jewelry and it's GONNA disappear. It's not going away. And I started doing research into different sub niches within the gardening market and eventually settled on Orchid. Care the reason or could care made the list is because when we lived in China we bought a bunch of orchids and they all died and I figured wealth. If I had the problems like caring for orchids in our house like other people have the same problem. So we went into that business and Followed the what's now known as the ask methods to understand what that market needs challenge that they have. We took business from nothing to about twenty five thousand dollars a month in eighteen months. My wife quit her job. We grew the business about half a million dollars a year and went on to become one of the twenty three markets that we just went into market aftermarket using this process. And so the key difference. Is You want to go into that market. That business by the way over twelve years later still pays all of our living expenses so everything that I do with ask and choosing everything that just like all on top that tiny little business still produces enough money to pay our bills over a decade later in the reason for that is because it's a market. That's not going anywhere right. It's an evergreen market so that's market must have number one. I like that. You offer any suggestions on either tools or ways to know whether or not something. A person who's interested is a fat or not. I would imagine that it might be difficult sometimes to know whether this new idea that I have could tomorrow on my favorite tool. This is a totally free tool. And it's one I think you may have. You may have talked about it. A little bit in either will it fly or or maybe one of your books are definitely in some of your courses. It's called Google Trends. So Google trends is of is a free tool put out by Google where they publish the search volume for keywords. Going back to I believe two thousand and four. So we have fifteen years of data that you can type in keyword like orchid care or fidget spinners or play guitar and you can see over fifteen years. What is that surge volume? Look like now if you look at a keyword fidget spinners. It's a fun one type in. You're GonNa find that the keyword volume spikes up the moon and then drops off a cliff. I'll give you another one. That spikes drops. It was a thing about maybe maybe about eighteen to twenty four months ago that everyone was talking about. It was the biggest business opportunity. You could not log into facebook or instagram or go anywhere without somebody talking about it. You know what I'm talking about now now. I'm so curious bitcoin. Of course there's time where everyone was like bitcoin this. I'm starting a Bitcoin podcast. Bitcoin membership. Everyone's talking about Bitcoin if you look at the search volume on Bitcoin. Bitcoin just shoots up to the moon and then falls off a cliff and then goes nowhere. So I caution people away from going into trending or fad markets. Because you don't know where you're going to ride like where you are in that that growth pattern are you at the top and ready to just fall off at the bottom of growth. So what I'm looking for is what I call. Metronome markets metronome markets. Just like a metronome for anyone who's studied music it just takes along tick tick tick and if you look at the Google Trends Graph. It's going to be stable. There may be a little seasonality to it but it's stable from one year to the next. So that's what you're looking for. Markets like that if you look at a market like orchid care. You'RE GONNA find that. It has that pattern this season. -ality do it because it's gardening sub niche but it is a market that just hums along year after year. So that's the first thing. But here's the thing. It's not enough to just be in an evergreen market. The second market must have is what we call an enthusiast market now. An enthusiast market is in contrast to a problem solution market. What do I mean that? A problem solution market is a market where people have a problem in their life and they go to solve it and then they move on never wanting to think about it ever again. Perfect example would be something like a flooded basement or removing a wart or removal is a problem solution market. You have a war. You Buy Medicine at the store. You're not blogging about it. You're not posting about it on social media you're not joining war enthusiasts facebook groups. You're just getting the problem solved in an. It's an embarrassing. Probably getting. It's all and you're moving on now. In contrast to an enthusiast market and enthusiast market is a market in which you can sell to the same person multiple products over an extended period of time. It's the market that you've chosen. It's why people bought your First Book Your Second Book Third Book. The reason why people listen to your podcast like me for Gosh going on five six seven. Eight years spread. It's the reason why people buy all of your courses because they stay enthusiasts in this market over multiple months and oftentimes multiple years so perfect example of an enthusiast market is orchid care or could care people by their first orchid. Oftentimes it leads to the purchase of five ten fifteen twenty orchids which leads to building a greenhouse out in the back which leads building a hydroponic system which leads to growing African violets and succulents and oh I grew my first fallon opposites but now I WANNA learn how to grow an unsteady. Amorin dendrobium before you know it. This hobby has just ballooned in mushroomed into this major part of this person's life so that's an example of an enthusiast market entrepreneurs enthusiast market interestingly weight loss and fitness is also an enthusiast market. If you know anybody in your life that's struggled with their body typically. It's not just a one and done solution right. People like for me like I have a personal trainer. I have all sorts of equipment t-rex equipment. I take all sorts of supplements like for me. Fitness and personal health is like a thing that will spend decades in my life but those are the type of markets. You're looking for enthusiasts. But it's not enough to just be an an evergreen and enthusiast market you need market must have number three before we got to number three. I do have a question about that. That mean so we're talking about the market being enthusiasts. Not necessarily your one solution being something that people can come back to or you having a next level for it right because Corron thinking about mine lead exam stuff. It's very much something that people WanNa take that exam and then they're done with it but I could have that like that's the the singular tiny market of the lead exam but there are more exams people could take so I could have potentially offered tips and advice and strategies and practice exams for the architectural exam and other ones beyond that so when it comes to choosing a niche. I'm just wondering how narrow perhaps we should get in. How how does that narrow the market for us or should we potentially go Kay? Well this is where this is the first problem. I want to solve but there are other ones that I could potentially go into later. And that's that's good enough for me to say us to this. It's such a good question so when we look at your products we're focusing on the individual product as opposed to the market itself so using our case. Study right now right exactly. So that's a product within the market that you serve and it's one of many things that people buy so for example they buy that product. And then maybe there's another piece of equipment that they that's the next purchase for them like so for example. They may need a a second one. They meet needed course. They may need a all sorts of different things that they can purchase. Oh there's a there's a that's a sub market within the market that you actually serve which is people who film themselves typically in a remote environment rightly traveling. They're filming and that's why they have that. They're moving around in some way. Maybe it's just in their home and office or whatever but that's the the use case for the product but it's it's a sub market within that now I do want to answer your question about size. Let's get to that after we get through. The five market must have one of those share is one of the biggest insights. I've had in my entire career spanning anything which is when I started looking at the market size of my most successful businesses in compared it to the ones that weren't as successful. I found what we now describe as the market size sweet spot. So we've found the right size. That's not too big not too small back to that. I do WANNA get through. The Market Must House I. Yeah so Of course gotTA tease right. So we're at number three right. So we evergreen markets number one number two enthusiasts. But it's not enough to be in an enthusiast evergreen market y'all need market must have number three which is to initially solve an urgent problem in the context of that enthusiast market so in other words it's not enough to just go into the orchid care market. It's not enough to just go into the dog training market or the guitar market. You have to identify. What is an urgent problem? That people need to solve immediately in that space. I'll give you an example in the orchid market. The urgent problem that comes up is people Go to bed. They're ORCAS healthy. They wake up the next day and they flip the light switch on and their kitchen and all the blooms on the orchid have fallen off out of nowhere and that leads them to say crap. What did I do wrong like? Did I give it too much? Water did it to committee what what did I do. What's going on? They go online and they type in how to get my orchid to re bloom how to get the blooms to come back to life. They're looking for a solution to that urgent problem that they want us all right then and there. I'll give another example. The dog training market is a perfect market. It's an evergreen market. Man's best friend that's not that's not changing anytime soon Enthusiasts market think about all the if people are if your dog owner like you have. You're in that market for years right from the time that you have a little puppy to An older senior dog and everything in between oftentimes people have multiple pets that span their entire life and urgent problem in that market would be for example. You bring home in you poppy. What happens when you bring you poppy? All-star he'd be yeah. These everywhere rights is peeing on the carpet on the couch on the bed. Whatever so you've got to potty train that poppy so it doesn't take too many nights of the dog making a mess on the better the carpet of the couch. Before you know your spouse honey we gotta deal with this like we got to solve this thing which leads you to go online and fix it another example of an urgent problem. I talk about women in in my book choose. She and her husband built a business called sleep sets and they basically help. Parents of newborn infants get their newborn baby to sleep through the night. So we think about when your kids were Newborns right think about when you and your wife were not getting good sleep it's miserable. Nobody's happy right when no one's getting good sleep and it reaches a point where it's like we gotta do something about this and so they help. Parents of newborn infants get their kid to sleep through the night for the first time. That's an example of an urgent problem in the context of an enthusiast market. Now here's the thing when you saw that urgent problem for someone getting the kid to sleep through the night potty training the puppy bring the orchid back to life. When you saw that urgent problem you then become that person's trusted adviser for life in that particular space because people go Dana. Thank you so much. But here's the thing my kids not eating. What do I do about it or the orchids? This is great. The blooms have come back to life but I WANNA bring a new type of orchids my home or the potty training thanks for teaching. My dog had a To go to the bathroom outside but now my dog is pulling on a leash when I take her outside like. How do I get her to behave? When I'm going on walks and leads us to market must have number four. Which is you need to be in a market. That has future problems you need to be in a market that the success of solving that I market leads to demand to solve the next problem in that market AG- in example. If you teach people haven't negotiate a better salary all of a sudden if I teach you how to add a ten fifteen ten fifteen thousand dollar raise money that you didn't have before that creates a new problem that you didn't have which is what do I do with this extra money. Like what's the best way to invest it do? I put it in my 401k. Joe I set up a roth. Ira What's the best way to use that additional salary to further my financial goals? Well that's a problem that that person never had before because they have been living paycheck to paycheck just just being able to cover their expenses. All of a sudden they get this ten fifteen thousand dollars a year windfall. What do I do about it? So when you're in a market where you solve a problem for someone but it creates a new problem. Your future problems that you can solve you will be. You'll have a customer for years and years and years and years the online space that you and I are both in is a perfect example of that right once you choose your market. What's the next thing you gotta ask that market what they want once you ask them what they want? You've got to sell them something. You is it affiliate marketing. Is it? Starting A PODCAST? He is it. What tack do I need to use? How do I build my email? List Howard Beale my audience. How to recreate a an audience of super fans like every problem that you solve leads to a new problem. It's one of one of my mentors. Likes to say new level you devil and really what that means is when you have future problems that you can help someone solve. You can have a customer that can span literally decades. They can be a customer of yours for life and that takes us to market not must have number five which is the most important one. And that's this you need to be in a market that is filled with P W ams and that stands for players with money. What I mean by that is. You can't sell to broke people. This is something that a lot of people struggle with. You can't sell to someone who can't put a roof over their head can't pay their mortgage can't put food on the table. If they can't cover those basic essentials those necessities in their life. They don't have the money to invest in. Whatever it is that you wanna serve them right I made this mistake one of the first businesses that I went into where. In retrospect it's so obvious but it went into a business That we that we created called scrapbooking bargains. So basically. It was a business that we help. People find bargains on supplies for scrapbooking. Now here's the thing scrapbooking in and of itself is a is a pretty inexpensive hobby right. So it's just. It's not a hobby like yachting. That requires hundreds of thousands of dollars. You can you can start scrapbooking for you. Know getting stuff at the used bookstore and now to teach people who are bargain-hunting in that market. That's like the bottom of the bottom of the bottom. It was market for people that don't want to spend any money at all. So in retrospect it was a terrible decision. But there's so many people who go into markets like that like for example. I just had a conversation with With one of my with one of my coaching clients literally yesterday. And she's deciding what markets go into and one of the ideas that she had was helping mental health professionals were fresh out of school build their business and I said Okay. Timeout a second so these are mental health professionals. They've gone to school. For How many years? How much student loan debt do they have at this point? How much money do they have left over to invest in their business? That's going to be a challenge like as much as you may be drawn to serve that market if you're not in a market with PWS players with money You're GONNA struggle now. The interesting thing about it is. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're selling to millionaires or billionaires. What it means is that you're looking for a pocket of people who have demonstrated to spend a disproportionate amount of their income in that area of their life. So for example for me getting my haircut. I get my haircut. It's like a fifteen dollar haircut. I don't spend any money at all on a haircut. My mom is a hairdresser so my mom cut my hair growing up so I just can't justify spending a lot of money on a haircut Lego. I'm a superfan right. Like I just got the Hogwarts hogwarts six thousand and twenty peace hogwarts castle set. That's GonNa take kids and I like three months to build. It's like a five hundred dollars set like I'll spend any amount of money on Lego. I have literally a blank cheque book when it comes to Lego when it comes to Lego I'm appear wm. I'm a player with money. I will spend money on that air of my life and you see it right so dog training perfect example people spend crazy amounts of money on their dog right organic dog food and doggy spa days doggy hotel and all the items and leashes and bowls and Christmas ornaments and all the things that people spend on their dog crazy amounts of money. So what you're looking for is a market that is filled with that type of person and has demonstrated a demand among p wm so five market. Ma Stops Evergreen market. So it's not a a one and done market. It's here to stay enthusiast market. Can you sell multiple things to the same person in that market over a period of years? Are you solving an urgent problem that they need solving now so that you can become their trusted adviser for Life Number Four? Are there future problems that you can sell that you can solve for that person and sell additional products and services them over time and finally p? Wm's other players with money in the market that you're looking to solve some. I know I can see the wheels turning. You're looking you're looking at over. I'm just curious your initial reaction as you think about. At least you're the product and the market that you're selling that product. Yes so let's let's go through with the switch pot and thank you for that. I have my notes in front of me so number. One Evergreen market is there an evergreen market for people who buy video equipment absolutely ever since the JVC came out in the eighties like people have been just insane with buying personal cameras and accessories? People want to document life right. They want to document life their own life other people's lives like that is. I feel like that's a core human element and that's not changing anytime soon. China shutting down and the the bloggers and all that stuff even though quote unquote blogging is a newer ish. Sort of market. There are players like Casey Nine Peter Mackinnon who are obviously showing up helping inspire. Many many more people doing it. So it's definitely not fat. That's for sure. But number enthusiasts market versus problem solution. I mean people go crazy with videos. I mean it becomes their whole life. They the bill businesses around it. They travel the world. I don't think I have to worry about that at all. Fit that number three salsa urgent problem yes. This is exactly why we built this product. It solves the problem of being able to quickly. Take your camera with you. Pack it away nicely but then deployed into tripod mood in just a few seconds and that was the problem that we we saw the interesting thing about. This is now that people have seen that. We've solved this little problem. We have hoards of people coming to us now going Pat Caleb. I had this other kind of way that I shoot. Can you build a product to help me with that? And we're like all right so we have this whole backlog of different kinds of rigs and things that we could do with or even brand new products to help people in the in the so. They are coming to us. Go Hell you. You're builders in in the locker space like I need this now too. Which is really exciting. Ask Awesome so solving the problem. And that's immediately segue perfectly into number four future problems. Your market is telling you. These are the additional problems that I need. Help solving PAT. Can you help me solve these problems right? Exactly and and and so one clear. Example is pat like You know I'm using the switch PA but I want to add some lights and stuff to it to the lighting. Now that I have the ability to shoot here is not as good so okay. We can create some accessories and solve problems in all kinds of different ways. Definitely I mean something. That's very favorable for us in this market of videographers videographers. As you know love to spend money on gear so there's definitely players with money for sure so I think it fits the bill and we're seeing the results of it right now and. I think we did pretty well with that. You did really well and I'll say you know you you hit the nail on the head on the POW MP's which is the barrier to entry in this particular market from a amount of money you need to spend is relatively high. That's a good indicator right. So for example in contrast video is a hobby or part of a part of your job. But it's it's a thing that requires a fair amount of money to get started versus. Let's say playing chess. You can get a chessboard at a Flea Market for probably ten bucks and you can have that one chessboard that you keep with you for the rest of your life video equipment is this never ending so I mean I'm in my studio right now. I'm just looking at dollar signs of like every camera and light and microphone and the trust and like everything that we have here. It's just a fortune for all this stuff. So when you're thinking about is this a market with. Wm's ask yourself what's the barrier of entry into that market in terms of how much money people need to spend. What do you tell somebody who's listening to this? And they're going. Oh crap I do not have peak W M's in my niche right went away. Well I would ask. Yeah so the first thing I would ask is if you're having overwhelming success by all means don't let the slow you down right. There's an exception to every rule right. So if you're knocking it out of the park and you're saying well I only checkoff. Maybe three out of five of these boxes but things are going great. Don't let anything that. I'm saying here dissuade you from continuing that path. However if you're struggling if you're not making the progress that you wanna be making taken open and honest look. I've made every mistake in the book right so. Pwlb's one of my first businesses teaching people how to improve their memory. I did that because I studied neuroscience in college. I wanted to make my parents happy and use my degree in some way because I wasn't going into medical school and so I built this business rocket memory. I thought this is really gonNA teach people how to improve their memory. Who did I attract broke? Students people who are studying for their L. sets the lead exam 'em cats. They were studying for standardized tests and they needed to memorize a huge amount of information. So they're buying our our program. These were broke students when I was a college student. I didn't have any money at all while I only knew that. In retrospect so sometimes the answer is you can make a pivot in a different direction and make a tweak in your business and find something that does check off these boxes. Sometimes though it's better to just you know what the pause button on this thing and I'm going to go in a different direction altogether But again stick a close hard. Look at where you're at and if you're hitting the results you wanna hit keep going and if not some this is a good rubric. A good framework to help evaluate the market. That you're thinking about going into and I would imagine that there might be an opportunity for if you are targeting a niche. Where perhaps you are offering things to people who may not have the money to invest in you and your products right now. You could potentially stay in the same market but offer that to people in a much more white glove fashion or in a much more accessible fashion to people who wouldn't essentially pay for it so instead of bargain been scrapbooking stuff like stay scrapbooking. But let's go high into the person who lives in that really a fluent community to create an experience with them in their kids and do it that way have fewer clients paying more. You could stay in the same niche but just decide who within that Niche. You want to target instead exactly. Sometimes it's just a minor pivot that makes all the difference in the world like that woman. I mentioned who wanted to help. Mental health professionals looking to start their first business just shifting to mental health professionals that have a successful practice that they want to go from a brick and mortar practice to building an online presence. That one shift alone is enough for her to be successful. And that's the path that she's on it she is experiencing success so sometimes it is just a minor tweak like that that makes all the difference. Love it and finish up here. I mean number one. Everybody should definitely go get your book? I think we have a special link. Actually where you can go get it for free with just pay for shipping right. What is that link? Choose the book. Dot Com forward slash S. P? I go there get it. Choose the book Dot Com Slash S. P. I get for free. Just pay for shipping. Get some other bonuses there too. You'll see it on that page. Choose the book. Dot Com Slash S. P. I but I don't WanNA leave people. Hanging there is a market size. Sweet spot that you mentioned earlier. What is that? There's too sweet spots so in addition to these five market must house. There's too sweet. Spots one has to do with size one do with competition and they both fall within an optimal range that you're looking for so let's start with size so I looked at every single one of our most successful businesses. And I'M GONNA leave with this caveat. My experience has largely been in the space of Teaching People. How to a in spaces where? I'm selling education and expertise. What what do I mean by that? Teaching Online Courses Coaching and consulting doing live events as opposed to physical e commerce products. So I'm going to lead this massive caveat that what I'm about to say applies to this specific type of business so podcasting online courses anywhere where you're sharing your knowledge of other people's knowledge and you're transforming into income and so what. I looked at his every single one of our businesses the most successful the least successful. What I found is that every single one of our most successful businesses fell within a very narrow range on Google trends and in the book choose. I made the very difficult decision to reveal with the world by most successful businesses. What they are. What the key words are we. Call Your Bullseye Keyword. Which is something. I teach how to come up with in your book. How do you identify what you're bullseye? Keyword is and had compare your market idea against what I call the Rosetta stone keywords so just like the Rosetta Stone. Translating Greek in hieroglyphics and it was the kind of the key you can plug in your. He word idea against these reference keywords and now does your market ideal fit within the sweet spot is it too big is too small and if it's in the sweet spot you've got a green light if it's outside the sweet spots a yellow light or a red light to help decide if you WANNA move forward similar to that there's also a competition sweet spot. The best way to measure competition online is to look at how much money people are spending on paid advertising on that keyword. You're looking for a market where there is evidence of people spending money but not so much competition that you're going to be eaten alive and it's sort of the old people do one of two things with competition. They either get super excited. That nobody else has their idea or they get super bummed out that other people are doing it and both of those are problematic because the thing that you want to look for is a market where people are succeeding in spite of themselves. One of my mentors wants taught me that. You WanNa look. You WanNa be a settler. Not a pioneer pioneers get shot but settlers get rich so find a market where other people are succeeding in spite of themselves. And once again choose. I reveal all the formulas although the process for measuring paid advertising online. How to do it using free tools and free resources so you can be in that perfect size sweet spot perfect competition sweet spot and check off the five market must haves and the last thing I'll say. Is this with this free book that we wanted to to give away to everyone listening to this right now. I also have resource. It's normally paid resource. I'm just GonNa give it to everyone for free. Which is a list of one hundred markets that actually check all five of the market must haves fit inside the market size sweet spot and the competition suites by? This is my personal. As I mentioned I went into twenty three different markets. This is the next one hundred markets that I would be going into if I had the time that. Pass all of these tests. I'm just GONNA give that to folks for free so if you want to just pick a market off that list you can do that or compare your markets one of those and give you a bunch of examples so I'm hoping that's going to be super helpful and PAT. I just want to say thanks so much for the opportunity to be sharing this year today. Yeah thank You Ryan. Choose the book dot Com slash. Spic thanksgiving man. Appreciate you hoping to have you back on the show in the future. But thanks for all the value that you offer and Everybody should check out the book and check out the Free Resource and Appreciate man thank you so much all right. Hope you enjoyed that interview with Ryan Leveque again. The author of choose you can check out his book at choose. The Book Dot Com Slash S. P. I and get it shipped to you for free. Just pay for shipping or like it's not shipped for free but anyway it's a small dollar amount for what you get to choose the book dot Com slash. Sap I you can also check out the show notes at smart passive income dot com slash session for one one smart passive income dot com slash session. Four one one and finally just want to know what you think about this episode. Hooked me up or look me up on Instagram or twitter at Pat. Flynn let me know what you think. If you enjoyed this episode WanNa share it feel free to do that and I just appreciate you so much team Flynn. You're amazing. Keep up the great work and I look forward to in the next few episodes. Make sure you subscribe if you haven't already and as always team. Flynn for the win cheers. Thanks for listening to the smart passive income podcast at www dot smart passive income dot Com.