OA216: Court Packing & More (w/guest Chad Schneider)
We have reached the verdict already. We all just kind of looked at each other and not at we find the defendant guilty of charges. Wait one, five. In your broth, you're on our check. Your would task. Whether it's rated through the cauda or starry to cease ceases, there is no basis for imposing some drew Coenen policy with regard to bail Noko Koto your honor. The defense is now just making up worse. Trial. Like a judge everything, ensuring people ladies. Welcome to opening arguments. The podcast that pairs inquisitive interviewer with the real life lawyer. This podcast is sponsored by the law offices of p Andrew Torres. LLC for entertainment purposes is not intended as legal advice does not form an attorney. Client relationship. Don't take legal advice from podcast. Hello and welcome to opening arguments episode. Two hundred sixteen heroes. Thomas Smith over there is Andrew Torres. Esquire how're you doing? Andras Esquire fantastic. That doesn't mean I'm still not angry with with rage, but but I'm also fantastic. I love doing the show with you, man. Yeah, it's true. I do feel better a little bit after recording helps helps a little bit, but but don't ever help enough vote. Okay. So let's talk about the most. We've got a guest as we referenced last week. We've got CHAD'S Schneider coming on to answer some questions about three guns. That'll be first up and then we're going to talk constitutional hardball and apparently there's a really weird bizarre, Rick, Scott story that Andrews gonna tell can't wait for that and we'll see what what that leaves us time for. We might kind of go into another topic depending on how long it takes. So that's our show today. Let's get to it. All right, Charlton. Heston famous sand. Do son's bitches this far? No. Further with your damn deck. Tater hammers Kilmore the guns. I'm a gun gun enthusiasts. All right. And as teased last week in the TT segment, we've got a special guest, Chad Schneider. How're you doing chat? I'm doing well, thank you. Yeah, we're, we're waiting with baited breath currently to find out just how good of a lawyer you are. But in the meantime, we're going to talk a three d. guns. So in addition to being a friend of mine, Chad is a professional engineer. He is the founder and head honcho over at route three labs. So he works every day on the kinds of issues that you and I were sort of fumbling back and forth with with respect to three d. printing and materials fabrication, have I have gotten that mostly right, Chad. Is that a fair? Yeah, we do a lot of three d print. We work with a lot of materials. So we do product development and. Type fabrication? Yeah, I'm just jealous that you work at some place called something, something labs. That's I wish some some super villain stuff or maybe superhero stuff. I don't know which which. I true true story with a friend of mine, a childhood friend of mine. We started a software company back in the mid nineteen nineties that never went anywhere, and we called it our Buta sports labs and the idea, and we were going to develop some baseball forecasting software and and we did some work on it and that sort of thing. But our tagline was our Buta sports labs. And then in in lower font, dot dot, we don't really have a land. But, but I will point out Chad really has a land and the reason that I wanted to bring Chad that I wanted to bring you on the show is because we got a ton of Email after we did our show a couple of follow ups on the defense, distributed Cody Wilson, and three d. printed guns. And one of the emails that I got was from a listener who has not given me permission to use his name, so I'm gonna keep him anonymous. We'll give him credit if he writes in and says, no, hey, I went, I went credit for for sending the Email and and I'm gonna read a little bit of the Email, and I wanna just sort of talk about some of the claims because I had no way to evaluate this. And so I wanted to get an expert to, you know, rather than rather than you know, try and figure it out to to. To evaluate these claims. So so here's the listeners Email. He says, I love the show, but I believe your fear of three d. printed guns might be based on a misunderstanding of technology. I'm an engineer that that's worked heavily in additive manufacturing and a process that I helped develop is what allowed the creation of the liberators barrel in the liberator is the three d. all plastic gun, right? Some things you should know. It is not possible at this time to make all non metal, three d. printed firearm due to the nature of AB s. and p. l. a. plastic. The materials commonly used in home three d. printing will never be capable of this. So I, I kinda wanna start at that at that first one. My understanding Chad was that several folks had in fact managed to print an entire liberator using nothing, but but three d. plastic. It made it. Susceptible to blowing up in your hands or blowing up after a couple of uses. But but I certainly was under the impression that it was possible to do. So. What do you, what do you think about that? That I claim that the nature of and I have no idea what the ABS NPL a plastic, so feel free to rip on that as well, but that due to the plastic, that's in three d. printers. You can't make an all plastic on what? How does. ABS is very common classic material that you're probably have at your fingertips a bunch of ABS plastic on your desk. The monitor in the laptop in the mouth and things. It's very common. It's cheap. LA is more. It's more. Common in three d. printers because of the temperatures that you can three print with its lower zero stick and things like that. It's kinda stiff, but it's weak and ABS is maybe a little bit stronger, but they're not terribly strong materials. I, I don't see any problem with the with his comment that ABS repeal a are not gonna make a viable gun or at least one that is going to be reliable and shoot more than once. I would say that that's pretty unlikely, but it's possible new could use three d. printing to create the majority of the components in put, you know, half inch copper tubing or or create a barrel by a barrel and stick that in that would take a lot of force. So I've, I've often thought about how you could integrate three printing with other materials, and we do that very commonly in in prototype development. So will if we want to add, screws will add a threaded inserts. If we want to combine three printing with say, laser cut acrylic or machine aluminum or other off the shelf parts. So I can buy off shelf components, put three printed features around it and make something relatively complex without having to make it strong as well. And so I don't see why you could do something like that in a three gun to to. Make that make that work, even though you're using cheap plastic parts. That makes. I mean it it it. It's interesting to me that that you know you've sort of defined ABS plastic as you know, the plastic around my monitor in my mouth. Like I maybe it's because I'm not an engineer, but like the seems you know, reasonably solid to me. You know? I, I, when I think of when I think of like cheap plastic, I think. There's there's like transformers toys that I'm sure around you right now. Yeah. No, I a I, I definitely have a a transformer sitting on my desk. It's ravished angling the little cannons up up as we speak. No, but but but hilariously there is a, there's a market for people who make aftermarket transformers parts. Right? So they'll do little add on pieces of and those are like, I think, look, I've seen some of them before and they kind of have a. You know, Huber the old like wax lips for from Halloween, right? Like I mean, they really look, you know, like you do definitely couldn't make a gun out of the stuff that they use for the transformers part, so, but but but I don't. I don't know that this this mass looks fairly fairly solid. If you think about the pull it in order to take a bullet and exceleron it to say five hundred or seven hundred the per second your, you need to be able to support that force. And so if you can't shoot a bullet at the thing, if you know what, if you think about what would happen if the bullet were to hit that thing after you shot it out of a gun, that's kind of the same thing that happens when you shoot the thing out of a gun, those forces are equal an opposite. That makes them. Yeah. No, that that makes a lot of sense. And I guess I never thought about it that way I would. I would not wanna shoot my mouse with gun, so that's a, that's a good way of thinking about it. All right. So the next clan skip over a little bit. The next claim is the liberator requires metal parts. In addition to the plastic components, the process to create one is very complex and requires a number of processing techniques like the acetone bath for smoothing the barrel. The weapon is only good for a single twenty two caliber shot, and then the barrel and the initiative must be replaced. And then and again, I'm sorry there's, you know some sentence fragments in here, but I want to get to the the claim that says a single barrel in even the best printer will take you more than two hours to make an process. So couple of things in that sentence. I mean, we've already talked about the the metal plus plastic. I don't know. I don't know how much you know about the a presumably you don't anything about the actual liberator. Duh. Zayn unless you've been downloading files off the the dark web view, which you don't have to. I don't know anything about the liberator and I tried to avoid downloading it. That's as as as your lawyer. That's a, that's an excellent. That's exactly what I would tell you to say on the, but but but what about the claim that it would take two hours to to three d print a single barrel in the best. So interns that I would say that probably pretty reasonable. Yeah, it would. It would be slow. That's a Suming that you don't just use a twenty two barrel and just stick it into an oversized three d. printed barrel. But going back to the the claim that it takes a long time to three d print materials. It's true. It does take hours. There's there's not really any way around that right now. The I don't know of any technologies that are faster in three d. printing. I know some of that I've heard that are coming out that might be faster one day, but but now they're not. So it would take many hours. I don't know how that's relevant though. It seems like it's not really the question in this in this argument. The only defense to any kid out there could have a three printed gun at any time as well. Yeah, we'll have to wait a couple hours that's not really a strong defense, but I will say in terms of printing around in existing barrel, I could see that being, you know, like if you have, is there a meaningful way on this question will be outside of, you know your scope of knowledge, but is there a meaningful sense in which you wouldn't have access to a gun, but you would have access to a barrel of a gun to print around, or I guess if you use something that was like a barrel of a gun, maybe well barrel the gun. I mean, it's just a use of metal tubing. You can get, you could figure out so you could learn something. Used in in something and put a bullet in, I don't know. So it's not as though you would need a specifically made like, because you said a barrel of of of something which is at twenty two or something. So you would be able to get your hands on, which is the whole question is, is this a danger in that people who wouldn't otherwise be able to get a hold of a gun can easily manufacturer one? And so I guess your answer then would be yes, because at least insofar as this part of it, you can get some sort of tubing or some metal something that'll that'll make you able to print this gun even when you wouldn't have access to buying regular again. Yeah. That's right. Okay. Yeah, and interesting you. You had mentioned technologies. The next sentences. Further, we've had subtractive manufacturing for a century additive manufacturing or three d printing has been around since seventies subtractive manufacturing, just the inverse removing material instead of adding it to the build area. The fundamentals of three d. printing are very much the same. Almost everything that can be accompanied, sorry, can be -ccomplish by three d. printing can be accomplished by CNC mills, which are used by weapons manufacturers to create firearms and are available to the public for roughly the same price as a three d. printer. Sorry, that was one sentence. I think they're kind of two concepts in that, right? The the I think I get the idea that you know, subtractive manufacturing, sort of like I take the clay and I cut away everything that isn't a bust of Homer, and then I'm left with my statue. What about it seems to me the interesting claim there is. Is that this CNC mil are the things that are used by weapons manufacturers, and you could buy them as cheaply as you could buy a three d. printer. What? What what's what say you say that it's in the same order knighted. I can buy three printer for for three hundred to two thousand dollars for home. Three frontier. The u. Kabaya CNC router that can machine aluminum and you're in the ballpark of, you know, fifteen hundred to two thousand or three thousand dollars. So it's it's not out of the remote possibility. You can get a used mill on Craigslist for for four thousand or five thousand dollars. So that's true. I think the difference is that it takes a lot of skill to make a part out of out of medal and to see in see it even even with the CAD file. There's some skill involved in and what is what is what do you see? I don't. I don't even know what so stands for computed numerical control. I think basically it's the you have the model in the computer. It has all the positions in speeds and how the. Tooling or rotate and everything, and it just controls the the the milling process. So you can create all kinds of crazy shapes and you can do it very accurately. So it takes a lot of guesswork out. And it also means you can make non straight shapes in the in the milling in the process. But the claim that we've been doing subtractive manufacturing for a hundred years as correct. You don't need a CNC in order to build parts out of metal, you can just do it with a regular mill that moves in x, y, and z. And so you can or three axes that you're machining whip and analyze so away makes things round. Mill makes things square. So you can between the two you can make guns pretty easily. That's that's what was originally used to make guns. So I think the difference is that the skill involved. Loved in both of those tools is it's a pretty high bar takes time to learn these things. It takes time to understand feed rates in materials and work holding, and all these different things in accuracy, and you have to have a lot of tools that go along with the mill to make it accurate, like measurement tools and things, but three d. printing. If you just download the file, you can hit print and and start making parts. And if you had a a machine and you had a dimension drawing and you download that, that might be easier than creating yourself, but it's not as easy as three d. printed part and coming up with a gun by scrapping from scratch, designing it yourself, and then building it out of these machines. That's even more complicated. That's, you know, months and months of work of figuring it out building it. You know it, it fails. If you don't have a template to go after it's gonna take time to design something that's functional. No, that that that makes a lot of sense. So. Let me let me ask it as a as a leading question. My impression, right. If if if you told me as as somebody with zero mechanical, aptitude, that I could either three d print something from a file that's available on the internet or the or that I could mill something like that. The I seems like yes, like me as an idiot, like I could manage it right, but, but the second seems like even with the computer control that I would still need to know, you know how to use the equipment, you know, for example, in in your answer, I think you said maybe maybe I'll get it backwards. I think you said mills make things square and laid make things around. Is that right or. Like I, I wouldn't have known that right. Like I it, it. I've zero idea about that. Right? So so my impression and again, I think this informed, you know what, what we were saying on the show was that kind of the primary harm here on the three guns is the accessibility and availability to non professionals, right? Like if so, you know, yeah, I get it, you know. And a bunch of people wrote in to say, well, you know, if you, if you have a laid, you can bore out. I get all that to to me, it's sort of like Kenan enterprising teenager, you know, does it make it easier for an enterprising teenager to manufacture deadly firearm at at his school? And you know, and that was sort of the the mindset that I took into the segment. And, and I guess I wanna know, you know, sort of all this taking together, like is that. Like, was I wrong on that? Was I right? But with an explanation, like how you know, how is that? Is that a fair in bribes surprised in the history of machine shops? If there wasn't a kid that made parts for a gun at school sometime they've probably been smart enough to not get caught it or whatever, but it seems like to make three printed gun. If if it was possible than it would be just it'll be far far easier if you just downloaded a file and hit print, went home, came back and it's ready for you. And so I think one of my one of the things that caught my ear, I guess is the concept that the materials used in thirty printing will never be capable of this end. You know, never say, never the. There are lots of three printing technologies that. At our fully capable of making a a functional gone out of medal. You can three d. printing in aluminum, stainless steel and titanium. You can make parts out of carbon fiber. So the right now they're very expensive, but what is expensive? I mean, it changes as far as what it what it means to be accessible in how motivated someone is if someone's not motivated by money, they don't. They're, they're not trying to make it a gun because they don't wanna pay for a gun than the opposite is that they don't wanna pay. They don't wanna make or they don't wanna pay for them the gun because they can't buy a gun for whatever reason or can't be known buying a gun. Then the cost maybe isn't the issue, and then they can afford one hundred thousand three printer that can print print metal or carbon fibre or something. And so as these technologies get cheaper and cheaper, there will be. A time. Some I don't know when, but sometimes this will be less expensive. I just see it every year that three d. printers become more complex, more accurate and less expensive. So if I were trying to sum it up and bottom line it for all the non engineers listening, it sounds like definitely. I, it's not so much danger right now. It's not as though any kid with some sorta crappy three d. printer can print up a gun based on these plans right now, but that if you have a really good one or if you're creative with, you know, buying some sort of like one or two metal parts and then printing around him or something like that. You could make it now and further that as technology gets cheaper and progresses and maybe these printers are more accessible to everybody. Then maybe it would be the case that everybody could download this file and just push print and wait and then have a gun is that. Getting wrong there. Is that right? I mean, once the files are out there if people download them than they're out there. So when the technology catches up, then there's no cooling those back. So I agree that it's certainly not a big threat right now. I wouldn't. I'm not concerned about it as threat of people running around with three d. printed guns. I think it. The technology could get there, but there's also tons of ways to create weapons. I mean, I think anyone who would who would be are arguing the point would say, you can make a weapon out of steel pipe. You can make you can use the knife, you can, you know, make a bomb out of tons of materials from Home Depot or or even the grocery store. So it's not an issue of whether we can make things that harm people if you're properly motive or improperly motivated, you could make make a weapon outta virtually anything so the that's not really what might concern about three printing guns is I think it's just a novelty. But what about the? I guess one other thing that we didn't really touch on is if it's true that the plastics you're describing, can't actually support a gun that the other question would be, you know, for us like a terrorist plot, you know to to vade metal detection in an airport. Is that something that could be possible or is possible to be able to make like pretend the resources or the, you know, the money isn't the issue with any sort of current printing technology. Could you make a plastic or or at least non metal gun that would work enough to bring on an airplane? I wanna say that it's very hard to say something impossible. The bullets are going to have to be metal thing right? The you could potentially make things that are small enough. Well placed metal that it wouldn't throw off a metal detector that has to deal with things like pens and watches, and knees and stuff. So you know, I would say it's not impossible. I don't know that it would be a big deal via a big concern of all the other ways you can harm people. Hey, this is an ad for the great courses plus look urine, oh, a listener. You care about the supreme court. If you didn't, you wouldn't listen to the show. And as we talk about in this episode, the supreme court's fall session is starting, and we're going to be there to give you deep dives into a ton of different interesting cases. But something you can use to supplement is the great courses plus, which has a really, really cool course about this which is called history of the supreme court and look as a law geek. Like it's really cool to get into the personal history behind these cases where you know, I tend to know at from the logging Kary perspective, I tend to know about the holding and that sort of thing. So this is the perfect opportunity. If you're in LA listener to get started with any of the great courses. Plus there are thousands of lectures with the great courses, plus you get unlimited access to stream their entire. Your library from history politics, business science had a speaking language how to cook all of that. You can also watch or listen anytime anywhere with the great courses plus app. And as always since they're sponsoring the show, we get a special offer just for our listeners because we love the great courses. Plus we know you will, too. You can listen to history of the supreme court and any of their lectures for free. So to start your free trial, you go to the special URL you know, with this one is going to be the great courses plus dot com slash, oh a, that's a way for opening arguments. The great courses plus dot com slash away. Remember the the beginning, the great courses plus dot com slash. Okay. Well, that's, that's all the questions I have about you Andrew yet. No, that that that gets through what I wanted to get through, which was I wanted to evaluate the claims in the Email. I wanted to test our sumptious which I think you know with it, we've gotten sort of a more, you know, fuller picture there. I'm pretty satisfied. So Chad. Thank thank you so much. And if we have folks who are looking to build prototypes or take their prototypes to the implementation stage and they've they've looking for sophisticated labs, or you know, a professional engineer, you wanna do apply. You can find our website at route three laps dot com, which is our OT the number three l. s. dot com. And we do engineering practice element primarily medical devices. So. Cool. Well, we have, yeah, we have a lot of entrepreneurs who listen to the show, so maybe they will cook up. All right. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. Okay. Constitutional hardball what's going on with Rick Scott? I, this is the guy I can't say in this guy. I don't know if you caught the journal over from a couple of weeks back where they talked about giving felons the right to vote again and Rick Scott's personally sits on this panel where he liked judges. These people who've done everything right, and he talks they talk about God. So I, I don't like him, but why? What's your story about Rick's cut? Yeah, I'm I'm no fan of Rick Scott. He is running for the Senate in Florida. Right now. He is term limited to two terms as governor of the state of Florida. His approval rating has been like, I mean, it's better than Trump's, but it's been in the forty, so I don't really understand how he was reelected and you know, may get elected to the Senate, but but but there you go and he has announced his intention to pack the. Florida state supreme court and to do so in a way that spoiler in my view, very clearly violates the law, but but we're gonna see if anybody has any remedy for it. And and this I think falls under as as you pointed out, sort of the general header of constitutional hardball. Right. That is. You know, using the while there's no law that says, a dog can't play basketball kind of things to to overturn previous norms and and and for nothing other than kind of pure partisan advantage. So what's going on Rick? Scott has publicly said right because again, these people have no shame. This is part of how they fundraise and how they pander to their pro Trump base. He has said that there are three justices on the Florida state supreme court who are required mandatory to retire in twenty nineteen and Rick Scott said, I'm going to replace all three of these. Well, now that would be of no consequence, right? Like right, if if a, if a supreme court Justice has to retire during your term, then you get to replace him in the fact that these three justices who are the oldest are. The three most liberal justices on the Florida state supreme. Well, you know, like, sorry, Florida citizens at your own damn fault for electing Rick, Scott governor twice, and you just going to have to suck it up. He gets to make supreme court appointments. However, this is a very, very unique situation. And the situation is that the judges terms end under the Florida state constitution at the exact same time that Rick Scott's term ends. Right. So in other words, under the state constitution, I'm going to read this exactly word for word. The governor's term begins quote on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in January guy, and that is January eighth twenty nineteen k and same language retiring justices term ends on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in January. So, oh, a might doesn't that sound like it's an overlap, like the. The term ends the day that the governor term starts that. And that's exactly what how Scott's team has interpreted. He says yes, by statute, the supreme court justices have to retire at twelve o one on Tuesday, January eighth twenty nineteen, but I'm still governor until my successor is actually sworn in which is going to be, you know, around eleven AM new, whatever on Tuesday, January eighth twenty nineteen. So I'm just gonna wake up super early that morning and about six AM. I'm gonna name three new supreme court appointees. Okay. Another ad for one of my favorite sponsors, simple contacts. You've heard me promote them before. 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I stand by, they shipped my crazy prescription out to me and and I highly recommend it. So simple contacts dot com. Slash Oei twenty promo code OA twenty. Well, that's what I was saying would actually we're going to go down to the the hour. I was saying that it sounded to me based on how you read that that the judges serve through that whole day. Whereas the governor starts, you know, hypothetically at twelve. Oh one in that that morning. But is that now right? Yeah. Well, that look, no one quite knows yet. Right. Okay. But Rick Scott has taken the position. I'm gonna you know, upload his statement included in the show notes where he has said, I will appoint three more justices on the morning that I finished my term. And what do state do they have to go through convert a confirmation process in the? No. Oh, right. Yeah. So that's the thing is he just gets to nominate them to the state supreme court. So as soon as he made that statement in June of twenty seventeen the organization common cause as well as the league of women voters of Florida and some individual plaintiffs filed a lawsuit to say, you can't do that, and they filed. This is this is my favorite when we get to do these kinds of stories that have Latin phrases that I, I mean, I guess maybe the reason that you know I'm not up for supreme court justices. 'cause I certainly don't remember these these words. They filed a petition for writ of quo Warrenton that's made up Ed. It's out of kinda made up to me too. So I had to look it up a petition for a writ of quo warranty, right. So, look, we've talked about other writs, right? Like a writ of habeas corpus is a writ that that says you are being unfairly detained by the power of the state habeas corpus meaning literally, you have the body and so they can you know you petition and say, I shouldn't be here. I should not be in detention. I should be released. We have talked about getting a writ of men Damis and a rid of men Damus same Latin root word for mandatory, right? It is. The government has no discretion. They have to do this thing. They're not doing this thing. A rid of mandate. Miss says, make them do that thing. Quo warrant. Oh. I was at a loss. So I looked it up and it is a writ were legal action requiring a person to show by what warrant and that means justification. An office is held claimed or exercise, and you petition for a writ of quo Warrenton when you think that somebody has improperly exercised certain elected authority. And that's what this is right. This says, it's kind of like it's kind of like the equivalent of declaratory judgment action. It says, Rick Scott does not have the power to name new supreme court justices. He said, he's going to name new supreme court justices. So we want the Florida state supreme court to tell us whether he can or whether he can't. And the interesting thing to me. Which is not interesting to anybody who's not a lawyer is the the, how narrow align that is with a another Latin phrase that that we have used. In fact, I have litigated these kinds of cases and that is an allegation that an elected official that government official has acted Alterra virus VR ES and that is beyond the scope of your thority. Right. And that's an ordinary right action, bright. Yeah. So when you say, you know you're acting tra- virus, right? Like that means, you know, for example, I face that in in a case, I made that allegation of a county council member who tried to rezone Mike clients property, and I said, look like, that's all tra- virus like she does not have the power to rezone on her own. That didn't require bringing the separate, you know, quote war into it was just like, I, it's, it was the equivalent of the I move for a bad court thing. It was like, I just said, yeah, no, you don't have the power to do this and you did this and it hurt my client and stop it. 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The ultimate way of doing that is using blinks to to read those get even more out of your time and they are constantly adding more titles that are just the best of whatever the John reser you're always getting d. most powerful ideas in a made for mobile format. Five million people are using blankets to expand their minds, fifteen minutes at a time you should get started today right now for a limited time. Blinking has a special offer just for audience to blinked dot com slash, oh a to start your seven day free trial. That's blink is spelled b. l. i. n. k. i. s. t. dot com slash oh a for opening arguments to start your free seven-day trial, and you can cancel at any time. So try it out, risk free. Seven day free trial blinking dot com slash a so anyway, was filed in twenty seventeen. And and and I think it's kind of an interesting question, right, so so let's sort of breakdown rightly number one it was filed in the state supreme court. Right. And and as we've talked about most state supreme courts, including Florida, including the US supreme court are cert- courts, which means that you don't get an automatic appeal as of right to those, they get to decide whether they take cases or not. But there are an it's a tiny number of cases in the US supreme court. It's a larger number in many state supreme courts where you get to file an original action in the state supreme court. You get to go there first and and so that's sort of the the first question is, is this a thing where you can go first to the to the state supreme court? And then you know. As as a as an extension of that, right. Well, I'm in fact, let's let's talk about the jurisdictional argument, right? So so what the plaintiff said, what common cause? And the other plaintiffs said in their petition was while this courts, jurisdiction is discretionary and concurrent with other courts, right? That means they don't have to take the case specific considerations in this case, warrant immediate review by this court instead of transfer to a circuit court followed by an appeal, right? And their arguments were number one. No facts are in controversy. And this is a really, really good argument, right? Because remember that as we've talked about, you know, the difference between a trial court and appellate court is the trial court figures out the facts and the appellate court determines whether you've applied the law correctly or not. Well, there there are no facts in dispute there. There's nothing to figure out the governor has said, I'm gonna point these guys. And the question is. Does he have the legal right to appoint those guys? Man, I'm going with guys. I, I'd love to be proven wrong. I'm guessing this is not going to be a particularly diverse set of appointments that gets crammed through on the morning of January eighth, and and then most importantly, right. So so number one is there no facts in dispute. And number two, we don't have existing guidance from this court on exactly win the governor's term ends. And so any other court is just going to have to guess. So let's get that from you, right? Let's let's have that guidance established at the at the supreme court. The state supreme court level so that you know, we're not because otherwise, you know, it's just gonna be lower courts trying to figure out what you're going to do. And then and then applying that imaginary standard and then you'll get the say, no, we were. We weren't. So let's why don't we start at the top and then and then the third argument is that the legal issue raised in this petition applies equally vacancies resulting from district court judges whose terms may expire following the twenty teen general election. So the petition says, the three vacancies on this court that governor Scott intends to fill will leave the court with justices who resided in four of the five district courts of appeal when appointed, which means applicants. For two of the vacancies may reside anywhere in the state every circuit and district court judge in Florida, save for the few who may be ineligible or and I love this phrase resolutely disinterested in seeking higher judicial office. Other than those guys, everybody is a potential applicant for these bacon cheese would therefore have a stake in determining which governor gets to make the appointment. This is a very real conflict of interest that simply. Does not exist for any member of this court. Appellate judges should not choose which governor may appoint them in the state's highest court and and and that's a really good argument, right? Like that says, you don't want to have a judge determine whether there's going to be a vacancy if that judge would like to serve them, right. So I, you know, pretty strong, pretty strong set of arguments and and look like all forms of constitutional hardball, right? This is something where the race to the bottom is immediate and obvious, right? So if Rick Scott wins and he gets to a point three justices at the end of his term, you know, in between twelve o one and noon, then a soon as Florida gets democratic governor that governor's going to do the same thing. Okay, I is. I think your argument for laying out why this should be decided by the Florida Supreme Court seems totally to make sense to me. I as well said mix percents, but is this the kind of thing that happens every term? Is that how the laws structured? So that every? Is it a term limit thing? Or is this the age related in terms of why they have to retire at this exact time? The judges have to retire because of age, right? So they all happen to how if you reach a certain within a term or something, or how they all l? Yeah, it is. There's there's a, there's a mandatory judicial retirement statute. Most states have that that that basically say, you know, once a judge gets to x. age, it's only the US supreme court. I don't wanna say only I don't know what they do in Idaho. But most states Maryland is is also one of these require judges to take senior status and then rotate off and then have mandatory retirement when you hit a certain age. So that's that's what the Florida state legislature has passed mandatory retirement to certain age at the end of a particular term. And and it just so happens that they're going to be three justices. They're all the most liberal justices and they've all exceeded the mandatory retirement age now, so they, they must retire on January eighth twenty nineteen make sense. Yeah. I'm just surprised that there wasn't more in whatever statute that is, you know, is demanding or is it in the constitution, the state custody. Or is it a law? Yeah, it's article five section ten, a of the state concentrated guy. And and and and if your question includes the question, has anybody ever done this before? The answer's no one's ever right? Like it. It's pretty obvious from history that their term ends at the same time as the governor's. So you meant to be the next governor would do it. That's how it's been understood, but he's exploiting this timing difference to say too, and I don't even know that there is a time. He's saying that there is a timing difference. And the question is is, is there a timing difference? Right? Because that's that's alternately where your lawsuit comes down to. Right. And so the the petition that was filed says the judicial terms do not expire until after January eighth twenty nineteen has. Is concluded. Right? So they go the other way right? Like they say, look, it's clear when you're terminally expires on a certain date, right? You have until. Eleven fifty nine PM on that right, and that and that has as somebody who was filed. Filed pleadings electrically at eleven fifty eight PM that certainly has a lot of salience. Right? Like the the idea that you say right, if if if I tell somebody, yeah, I'm going to get that to you by January eighth, right. That doesn't mean I've got to get it to him at twelve, a one AM on January. That means I got to the end of the day on January eighth, right? And and courts have have always interpreted where they have electronic filing. If if your time stamp is eleven PM on January eighth, you filed an January eighth, right? Like you would not win a MU emotion. Say to default somebody if it said the deadline was January eighth and then you fall application that said, well, they filed it on January eighth rightly. The court would be like, yeah, right. That was the deadline and, and that is and there there's more to it. But that is essentially the argument that the common. Ause was making that says, look, there's an overlap here, but the overlaps in the wrong direction. You're as governor in prior to ends at twelve one because it says the new term begin. Yeah, I don't see how he's definitely having it both ways. It's not just that the, you know, the supreme court term starts later than he saying is that he his term, he's extending his reign of power by few hours to to meet the difference. Yes, that's exactly right. And his justification is a justification to tradition, right? It is we have a swearing in ceremony and until you know the next person comes in and hold their hand up and swears the oath I'm still governor, right? So that's the issue I told you this was filed in twenty seventeen you. You. You you might be asking will, why do I care about it now? And the answer is because when this was filed in twenty seventeen, the Florida state supreme court issued a perk Uram unsigned opinion that said the use of the rip of quote Warrenton to address prospective conduct is not appropriate. So they didn't weighing in on the substance of the argument at all. They just said, we're not going to decide this yet we, he Scott hasn't done anything. So therefore we can't tell if he's appropriately in office on this date because that would be an adviser, so one. So the warranty thing was about him not about the new. I figured it was going to be about the next three justices who are like sitting in their seats a little too early, but it's going to be him. Using his power to late. You're right, okay. Yeah, it's asking is he governor at eight AM on January, you laughing? I don't think it was that ridiculous to to assume that it could do. Were they the supreme court justices after he appointed them improperly seems like it could apply to either and and and and no, I was laughing because of the absurdity of the situation in no way was I can you because the reason that that this has come back up again is yesterday Rick. Scott asked the nominating commission to start reviewing applications to the court. So you know you asked is there like the equivalent of the senate's advise and consent? Rick. Scott has untrammelled power to nominate whoever he wants. He does not have to get approval from the state Senate, but he's got a go. Oh, through this judicial, nominating Commission. I and he's starting to push through his candidates through that process. They have sixty days. So that means early December is when he's going to take a look at that final list of nominees. Now, Rick Scott has said that he'll work with the incoming governor to take a look at that list up guessing that if the incoming governor is a democrat, probably not. Yeah, because yeah, right there would there would be no need to go through any of this process, right? If if unless you've guaranteed Republican. Yeah. Yeah. And the an and the the polls seem to show that the the democratic candidate for governor Andrew gillum is. I think the favorite at this point, but in any event, it's he's got a strong rings right. So so the reason this kinda leapt to the top of my radar is that in twenty seventeen the state supreme court said, well, you know, I've Rick Scott. Like who knows that guy just gonna talk. He's not done anything. Well, now he's done something right? And so it would not surprise me to see common cause refile the lawsuit and say, okay, like now we're at a place where it really makes sense to determine this because you know, he's he's moved forward with his intent to to, to nominate, wouldn't be. This will be a real constitutional state constitutional crisis. If they get to the point where it happens and then like will which three justices get to rule on whether or not this goes through, like how. Don't that that there's that there is. There is precedent for so there. Couple of other fun things that are that's sticky. None of this is fun. I don't. I don't know where you're getting. All sounds like to me is all the matters is wrong power. Will they have the power to do it or not? I sorry, go ahead. What what the new? That's right. And I accept your chest is men on my. I don't mean to you, like. Legal things, but it's just Gary to me. I, I look, this is Mick Mulvaney Leandra English situation in the make it right. That is the new governor comes in on January eight. Like if I were the governor right you there is I look this up because maybe I'm more crafty than Andrew gillum, but I doubt that I'm looking at this going. There is no, and there is no Florida law that specifies win the governor must be sworn in. Yeah, so do it, I wouldn't pick. Yeah, I would pick, you know, the most liberal Justice left on the Florida state supreme court, and I'd be like, okay, dude, like you're gonna swear me in twelve o one on January eight. Right. And so then you'll have to people who claim to be governor the will each nominate a slate of three candidates, and you'll have six p. People claiming their state supreme court justices and who knows? Right? Like I mean, is it literally going to be the person who says it first rate counts are right? Like we totally have. It's whoever's wearing the robe. 'cause there's only a set number of robes for the Justice. After. And down their mouth eating smelly, rub to the next person can. Can I give you another weird? Yes. Casualties. So Rick Scott, as as as we said at the beginning of this segment is running for the Senate, right? Well, the US Senate swears in on January third, twenty nineteen. He will have to step down as governor, right? His Lieutenant governor would then take over and presumably kind of carry it out so, but but but literally like you could have the situation where Scott's Lieutenant governor who is Carlos Lopez, Cantera is governor for five days for four days, and then however much on January eighth that. They're claiming that he's governor for and that person would then technically make the appointments. If if Scott was look like, obviously it would be good if Rick Scott does not win the Florida Senate seat, but but but he could Rammie one two terms as governor. He's obviously, you know, capable of go Rubio is capable of winning when he says, he's not even running anymore and all that stuff. So I don't, hey, hey, Florida. If you're listening, I don't really have high expectations of you. I don't think very highly of you. Probably not the Florida lease. Listen to our show though we have a lot of Florida listeners, including my parents. So. Hopefully mama down and told you. I've said my dad's a Republican, but, but he's a, he's a, he's a stop Trump Republican now. So hopefully hopefully my parents will go out and vote against Rick Scott and and vote against this this nonsense, and we'll one mess. That is really interesting scenario. I'm curious to see how this turns out. Yeah, I do not know the answer right lake. I mean, there's there's a commonsense answer, right, and and there is the this is this is why put it under the heading of constitutional hardball. Right? Like it, you kinda wanna say like, you do understand that once you weaponize this right that the next democratic governors going to do the same thing, but they're one of the odds is you're gonna get a worse outcome than three. Yeah. No, that's right. So they recognize who gets by matters is what power we have. So we're going to exercise his power that we have to to affect the court. For for as long as it lasts. I also just asked this question I think is probably pretty obvious even though I don't have any hope in the US supreme court anyway, this isn't something that could go higher. Right? Because it's just purely a Florida state issue and they're not. There's not as though let's say they can't decide who the heck is on the state supreme court. It's not as though that issue could go to the US supreme court isn't yet. That is exactly right. This is purely a question of state law, interpreting the state constitution and the the, the quo Warrenton the the powers of the governor of Florida and the US supreme court would say, yeah, we're not are in no position to second guess what the Florida state supreme court would say. They can only do that on elections that are important. True. That's a push gorge. Oh yeah. What a mess. Wow, that's really fascinating. I am. I mean, I I hope it turns out, okay, but but it's going to be a who that's going to be a nail biter to see what what happens. You know when when the s hits the fan, I guess hopefully heavily Brian clown horned me earlier. Yeah. Wow. We'll thanks for laying that out. Is there anything else we need to look out for any other? No, that's does it get any more fun. I, like I said, if I were common cause I would refile the lawsuit. We are going to keep an eye on this and see what happens. It's, you know, it is risen kind of into the low level media because Scott has sent the request to the nominating committee. So we're gonna. We're gonna continue to follow the story as of right now. We don't know again, you know, you're giving don't seem great, but you know, that's the I wanna bracket that with, you know, obviously our our biases in that, but arguments don't seem particularly great to me, but, but I may not matter right if the, if the judiciary says we're not getting into this, then you know, then we're gonna have a crisis on January eighth where six people are going to try and you know it's, it's musical chairs. Yeah, where they try and six people. In robes trying sit in receipts. So that's what's coming. Wow. All right. Well, let's fun to look out for in happier news. I think it is time to thank our new patients would he think? Absolutely. All right time to think our new patriots vigil dot com. Slash law, I hope they're enjoying all the benefits and the bonus episodes and all that. And they begin with upper management, Jennifer Smith, James Blackwell, Blake, Barnett odd, John Khuzestan. I don't know. Sorry, I done ca vest something this weird characters that I can't in high school. They called me casual. Dave. Alita Verster Peter Jones bread, Kavanagh's fake cry, real Donald Trump, Allen shoot co. I've by the way I disagree with that. I think he was very, very much actually crying Colin Williams, Donna to fiery yellow, Tim, Krueger Mastel, and company Felicity Kuzin. It's Kirsten. Nielsen. David angle heart Allesandra Mangare, Tim England, twelve angry men more like a hundred million angry women a little bit of doubling up on some of these good Liz female system weeks, Craig walkabout back Christopher Tuttle SC Eric, Ellen brook, Gabriella McKinney ISD doesn't respect on Christians. The best defense is a good calendar. Mary has broke Kyle. 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I like it. All right. That's it. For me, your turn. Yeah. I really hope that that Jennifer Smith is my childhood friend drew Smith. That's a pretty common name, but that'd be awesome if it if it were Hijen thanks to Nick McCollum. I liked beer still like beer. We liked beer. Kyle. You had j. this is FM s. so Kyle fun sin KB Kirsten craven that's our second Kirsten Christopher Bosh, Mike Wagner. Wags. I don't know if that's a cabinet type joke. Right? Like he's playing he's I did see the the, the John Oliver with all the fake news. Yeah. Adam Stanley Tynan daily, Jason Brandt, Eric Burroughs choice. Zito give money to bet. Oh, yeah, I agree that will Kevin Smith Kavanagh's eskimo brother will Stoddard big pooper well, good for you. Only at Mason Jacobs, savage Olga pain, Jonathan Darlie. I think this is sinister freedoms and s. t. our freedom. Victor clean Cheney, read David McGuinness, Michael are bowl, Thomas Harvey Kriegel Zachary more. John Bartlett, Robert God debt, Tim shoemaker, Sam cubit. That's Cuba joke anyway, like Chris Caldwell, Karen Perry, definitely take legal advice from this podcast. Take legal advice from that. Carl Turpin Cheney Bullard David rep Kirschner Shaun Williamson, Charles Morris. No one of consequence, I doubt that you're a consequential person. Jon Murphy, half squat in interrogate bardo Cavanaugh. Caitlyn Vam bus, Blake, n finger Holly shift. Tell Austin Harris. Limburg Michelson Brian Malla. Han atheist, NASA engineer demands more godless space law, Jonathan, Brian, grab it. You are kidding me on this. This is yakking j. o. and then I think it's Schuster, but there's a, there's the the section symbol, you know, the little. I don't know what I think is shut Markaz memorial. Does that. Has somehow. So I think yakking thank you very much prostrate simulation. Good for you. He's not the president. He's a very naughty. Boy. I named my cat Thomas. Now he runs Thomas cats, second chancellor. Chris bell reads zero sum game by s. l. hang action, packed math thriller. That sounds fun. H. u. a. n. g. so zero-sum game check that out Bora. Elia Bergdorf ferry Borelli Bergdorf Jerry Zane Olsen Benz otter rich 'em. NNcholas Lange, kellyn wing Margaret roars and Akhmed. Thank you all so much for supporting the show over at patriot dot com. Slash law. We hope you are enjoying being patrons as much as we are enjoying having you be patrons. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Hope you enjoy all content. Oh, no, socialis firm has ever failed the bar cham-. No kidding. All right. And now it's time to find out how chat and Idid on last week's t t t b e I know I've got. I've got a lot riding on this chat. I know you do as well as immensely important to two percent. Zero. That's true. Really is higher stakes for you. You're either perfect or absolutely abysmal bar question. So we'll see. All right. So this was a contracts question Thomas as all of our listeners know they are literally waiting with baited breath. They know you need to get the next five questions in a row, correct? In order to hit the coveted sixty percent at the half threshold. This was question number ninety. Six. This contracts question. This should have been right in your wheelhouse, right? This was bakery offered a chef, a permanent time job at a as a pastry chef. And while waiting to assume the position saying that I'm gonna work in two weeks, but one weekend, she gets an even better job offer as a restaurant manager for more money and so calls up the bakery and his like, sorry, going somewhere else. Then the question was, is the bakery likely to prevail in a lawsuit against the chef for breach of contract Thomas, both. You and Chad pretty confident that the answer was a? No, because they contract for permanent employment would be interpreted to mean that the chef could leave at any time and and we had a little bit of a discussion on, you know, permanent and that sort of thing. I'm not gonna beat around the Bush both of you got the question, correct? Uh-huh. Q. q. applause that was much rejoicing this. This was in fact a very, very easy question largely because I think the other answers were were almost entirely preposterous. Yeah. So you know what's the best process in the world process of elimination? Yeah, the the other answers I would find it hard to imagine you could get a good attractive. Distracter would have said, you know something about the expectation or reliance in the week or whatever weeks notice something, but than that, lay people onto right, but it wasn't there and and so it is in fact that the case that quote permanent employment in the United States today at common law without anything else specifying that relationship is construed as kind of the exact opposite of permanent, right? It means employment will you can leave at any time they can fire you at any time for any reason that's that's the system we live in. So you you correctly applied the law of employment at will to this scenario. Come up with the answer a and, and I think that means Chad is officially the greatest lawyer of all time. Yeah. Better stop playing this. After this question. One hundred percent. Wow. That well, good job. All right. One hundred percent tell us who this week's lucky winner is Andrew hopping your time machine, and I hope it somebody who rigged up some sort of like a cannon defy or cannonball direct answer something, something creative. Thomas. This week's winner is man chicken on Twitter. That is at men, shook in whose entry contains an awful lot of clown horn that I'm not sure I can read. I think the one sentence that still works is if employers want loyalty, they need to earn it. And then there are some references to, well, everybody can just check it out for themselves on Twitter, give at mansion follow. I think he accurately captures the state of morale here at opening arguments in light of Kavanagh's vote and swearing in on Saturday. So congratulations, I guess, and serious. Congratulations on getting it right. All right. That's it for today's show. Thank you so much once again to Chad Schneider and thanks Andrew for letting me get a nice easy bar question correct. Now, there's none of sanctity of the game. Inter would never interfere. Four more to go to get that perfect sixty percent. And we'll see you on Friday for another rapid response. See then. Can't wait. Law. This has been opening arguments with Andrew and Thomas. If you love the show and wanna support trips odes please visit our patriarch page at patriot dot com. Slash off. If you can't support a spinally, it'd be a big help. If you could leave us a five star review on itunes, Stitcher or whatever podcast delivery vehicle you news and be sure to tell all your friends about it for questions, suggestions and complaints, Email us at open arguments at gmail.com. The show notes and links on our website at WWW dot open argh dot com. Be sure to like our page on Facebook and foes on Twitter at open arcs until next. This podcast is production of opening arguments, media, LLC, all rights reserved. Arguments is produced. The help of our editor Brian's Egan, Hagen production assistant, Natalie new at our unofficial researcher magpie a special. Thanks to the moderators of the opening arguments, Facebook community, Natalie, Elisha cook, Eric brewer, and Emily waters, and also thanks to Thomas Smith who wrote and produced all of the amazing music here which is used with his permission.