Ep. 197: Eating Folks in the Arctic
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Go to your APP store or on x maps dot Com Slash Hunt and save twenty percent with the code meat. Meat Eater Media podcast on on and you shirtless severely vote bidding in my case underwear listening to meet our podcast. He can't predict anything. Presented by on ex- hunt creators of the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters download the hunt APP from the I tunes or Google. Play store nor you stand with Onyx Janos did you know that. Did you see how the bear the mall our past podcast guest Amber Kornak is dead is dead or relocated doubted. Just fresh dead was so I think I just recently also I got a thing about it being relocated. Yeah it can't wasn't able to keep yourself out of trouble so some do just outside of Libby Montana had a L. He'd killed in his garage in the bear busted into his garage to get the elk and it was like kind of like three strikes. You're out right like pretty much almost killed. Someone got a much much trouble got relocated. Got Much more trouble. It's dead. I speak an amber about this. Not You because she didn't want nothing to happen onto it gets a hold. That thing was twenty five years old. Five hundred fifty pounds. He gained a hundred pounds from when he got one from when he got caught in October. Twenty got killed in November. He gained a hundred pounds really. Yeah he went from four fifty to five fifty between October November. That's amazing that's a lot of eaten. I haven't been able to do that in my entire life. No and you know we just recently killed a five hundred and fifty five hundred fifty pound pig some glad to have that frame of reference. I think there are bare. How much beans Wade? That's right. Oh so you can imagine beans. Wasn't that intimidating. Yeah but but he also doesn't have for making them puffy yeah. He's not quite as muscular. Either I'm still wondering about amber. You're getting mauled by the grizzly bear. Oh it's terrific. Yeah you'll at least go back. We'll look it up. was that called laws. Horrific man no. It's not the bear. She's a Grizzly bear researcher but she had just started being researcher. And she was out collecting hair samples bowls. They're doing like a genetic study and she's out collecting hair samples from wire traps. Like basically you put out a sent us. Barb wire whatever around around it and the BAGELS in order to get it loses for on the barbs right and she's out checking hair traps and got mauled. Horribly came in from behind finder. It was interesting conversation. We had with her she also stumbles into it and it was just like right there and she just knew like he started coming to. She knew what was going to happen. Any bitter and back the head real bad and she grabbed her pepper spray and couldn't even see the bear at the time it was monitor and held held it over her shoulder. Quick Thinking Yeah and just point blank into its face and it dropped her and took off. What works yes? There was a who were all the time. It's like nothing so I heard someone recently. Nothing works all the time that this episode 167. You can't forget the title mauled by. There's Louis we just got right on that title. We'll have to. Who in the next week or two call amber and ask her? She's bombed the the bear malter nearly killed her is dead because she didn't want anything bad to happen to it. Because he's that's a good thing that happens with people to get mauled by Grizzlies. Lot of times people that get mall burgers. He's don't want him hurt. I would if one got me I would like to know still out there. Yeah but I got it. I got it was getting up there. In Age anyways GonNa get as pragmatic as she was. This call are pragmatic person. Wouldn't you know I feel. She sort of knows that happens to bears and it's just like unlucky that happened in the one that massive ask her but this is the time that we live in that when bears and people have conflicts the bears are going to get ousted especially a repeat the defender. I mean the fact that you can mall someone impertinent your kill them and then still get to be alive says a lot about human restraint. That's right yeah. We're we're not allowed to do that. Generally speaking no one of the Anti Maldon Mauldin real bad in any is. I don't want anything bad happen to them. They'd still give me a talking to Our special guests today historian what do you like to go by. Author Historian Historian Green an author authors. Better because I like that better to have an English masters degrees. I'm not trained as historian but I learned on the fly body Levy Levy. I was GonNa ask you that before the united screwed it up and I forgot to raise leaving the you go by author. Give people a range of some of the things you've written about. Wow so I've written about tracker hunting. Davy Crockett the conquest of the Aztecs. The first Europeans to descend the entire length of the Amazon Geronimo. Geronimo a blind adventure. Who summited Mt Everest and Kayak the Grand Canyon? WHO's currently on the peak of Amadablam in Paul? Today and then let's see labyrinth of ice is the Greely expedition so in addition to I covered adventure racing as a journalist for about seven years following these wild outdoor they're called multi-sport endurance competitions. And then I was on Brad Meltzer decoded did history channel. Show trying to not solve historical conundrums a well. We tried to solve them but mostly we didn't solve them and we got a shit for that you too. Are you ever going to DB cooper like. Did he get away or not. You know we're like no no way. Looks like he did though but anyway. So I'm a commodity Devi Cooper. Got Away absolutely almost devi. Cooper is real quick so yeah there was eighty. Five percent of people know Phil Cooper is. He jumped out of the plan kind of where I grew up so I know areas who he is. I mean yeah so fifty percent because fillon don't wait so you're from from Seattle Portland area in between there. Yeah okay so yeah. So this this guy who signed into the as DB Cooper any borden airplane lane in Portland heading to Seattle. And when he when he got on the he landed in Seattle and then he he asked for while he was flying he told them when he told the FBI that he wanted parachutes and two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and He would blow up the plane and he had what looked like a turns out to be a fake bomb so the FBI accommodated him. They gave him. They brought the money onto the airplane and brought parachutes and he let everybody off the plane except for like a flight attendant and the pilot of course and he got up to ten thousand feet heading back over over the mountains in Washington and he deployed the rear after stairwell of this airplane or he asked the stewardess flight attendant to deploy it at which point he had already put on the parachute and he freaking got. He jumped out of the airplane with all the money. No yeah man and so so the parachute before. Well no so if you if you If you research it you realize that there are a number of possible oh suspects right so historically FBI. It's it's actually unsolved ill by actually was right. Well we think it was this guy named Kenneth Christiansen who was a flight attendant himself and had done like he was a paratrooper in the military so he knew everything about how to jump out of that airplane and there's a whole bunch of reasons that we think it's him but it was really fun. Now why do you think that he lived because I thought they did the whole Saka rotten money and stuff around money in the stream the stream and they found they found money hidden at this house in Bonney Lake Washington and we went to the house during filming of this episode. And you know right behind this house there was buried like five thousand dollars and then there were other things this guy. He really right after after he right after this happened. This Guy Kevin Christians and bought a brand new house. And there's another guy who we interviewed name Bernie Geest men who who gave us the indication that it was prob. He you know he was an accomplice. But you know Bernie Eastman went. Wouldn't go so far as to like obviously admit it because I mean even the statute of limitations probably. I don't know if you could even get arrested for now. But he didn't want to be admitted he'd been an accomplice to this. The only unsolved hijacking in American history American aviation history. Pretty bad ass though so you. We never found the body remains. No no and we went to Minnesota an interview. This guy that it was Kenny Kristiansen's brother and he gave us some pretty compelling evidence that You know there was a deathbed confession that he that he told his brother that it was him. of course. It's hard to really corroborate that and I think his brother's dead now we filmed this back in Twenty twenty ten. I guess if you is dead to be a dead guy leaning their body they did find the people do. But how do the people waste track. I want to talk about but we're no around the subject. I got two things I want to ask you about four. We're talking about we're supposed talk about. Let's say I was the perspective. Let's say I was a guy that thought he was dead like I was a minute ago before we started talking about it. You know I'm not but I was but let's say you're we're an informed person who thought he was dead in one said to this informed individual. Why is this body not laying there? What would that informed individuals say to explain the absence of a body right so there are no question? Yeah like why you're saying why didn't they ever find a body. No Sola Zola million or and he's saying okay. Let's try it again. Imagine that I imagine that you're engaging with a person who believes he's dead. He died jumping out of the plane. And this person's well informed and you say to them. Does this person. Where's the dead body? Then what would the person throw out there as explanation for why. There's nobody right. Well he got got away. How about that? Oh yeah okay. He could've been eaten. By Wolves Nary back then Eh. That's what people who were semi informed would say there are other animals. That could I mean coyotes about okay so his body was scavenged fouled animals. Then that'd be the thing you could say peck down to bone but look they look they literally I mean they did find a parachute and they found money so it looks pretty much like the Guy I got away. Why does that make you think he got away because you leave the money laying out in the woods? Well he might not. Some of the money was not properly. Tethered all aw down yeah. Anyway it's it's fine because this is the reason that you know people have been trying to argue about this for like you know whatever since the seventies and I it's funny because it comes back up all the time. Yeah because people in America we just rehash every ten years Edberg Devi Cooper right. Yeah two hundred and fifty thousand doesn't seem like enough to try to pull that stunt back then though adjusted for inflation Roy. It was a million on two hundred and fifty K.. Couldn't you here in Montana. Sure down a mile city wants to move grace hunting fishing in the world. Yeah yeah maybe maybe but in just for inflation. It was probably four times at exactly so yeah you can jump off a plane for a million bucks a little venture. Yeah Yeah and we talked to a number of people who there were copycats afterwards and we talked to parachute instructors who are like. Oh Yeah you could definitely make the jump. That's a problem you know. They've jumped out. They were jumping out of airplanes complains all the time so anyway. That was only one of you know like I don't want to talk about decoded forever. But it was really fun it was fun cruising around kind of Slough thing in historical Mr Scherr. Yeah Hey how many. How many books have you written altogether? I think seven. Yeah you want you want on a hot tip. Yeah I do you know you ought to do we talk big time bestseller. Got My next book for me. Big Time Bestseller. Let's go claw Dallas. I touched it since jackals or whatever. His name was hero. Give a boy a gun right but a lot happened after that so like Claude. Dallas Dallas escaped from prison got caught like got out. He's back out now. No one knows where he is down. So right now Claude. No no real quick crash course. Claude Dallas was a Trapper self-styled l.. Mountain man but for a trapper back. Good for price era. Lot of Bob. Cats are very valuable and he was trapping. I believe around like the border of Your I. Yeah the desert I. Oh there's a name for it like the I. o N Idaho Oregon Desert. I was a teenager in Ketchum Idaho when when that's happening. Okay I believe yeah. So he was out in the desert and what he was doing his one. St The season was open in one state to seize them was closed and they had a feeling that he was trapped in the close state but camped into open state. And so he was he was having cast like all these cats like. Yeah but we catch them across the board where he announced bowls do but the two game wardens come into rate as camp and he's also got dead mule deer hanging there because he's living off dear me. Yeah he's got a dead mule deer hanging in camp cam gets into a skirmish with the game wardens different. His like he's the only guy that lives tell about it. But he says the game warns horns or harassing him and trying to get the drop on them they have a shootout. He wounds the two game wardens but then was seals his fate is he. He takes twenty two caliber pistol and goes in and kills both game or in cold. Blood shoots him in the head. Generally then Heads off into the desert is a big man hunt. He finally gets caught. Goes to jail escapes. It's a great story years. Go by. He gets caught dumpster diving. Somewhere goes back to jail gets out. He wanted his privacy and they let them loose and he just vanished into the ether. We now no one knows where your sister I thought they got him. They did the got him with Weiss. Sounds like you should write the John the first time they got him the second time then he served his time and people. I cannot believe you're GonNa let out of jail a man who killed a murderer. But here's here's the thing people like like when I was a kid like hillbillies like I hesitate to say this. But like a lot of like total hillbillies looked looked up to Claude Dallas right. He's a cult hero which is disgusting. It really is. I was even guilty of as a little kid trapper. In Predator caller magazine would do articles about clawed. Then it'd be like you know you really shouldn't kill game wardens bought you know there's something to be said for living out in the desert trap Bob Cats and it was like people acting like there was like sort of like up in the air whether or not this guy was good. I think rather let them out of jail. I think they should've snuka twenty two shell in behind his ear right and you know that's similar Thing with the Cooper where he's got cult hero status and people seem to forget the fact that he pretended that he was going to blow up an aircraft. He gets off a little bit because he he let the didn't the lead. The passengers go but he still. I mean you know it's funny. How yeah we gravitate toward characters even or figures historical figures? Even when. They're you know immoral but if the Dallas inexcusable man right but yeah we grew up like when we were little kids and that was all going on. We thought he was bad ass. Which is kind discuss team so we? I won't write that one then know about that right about. That'd be like the end of your crock book. Yeah you step back and look at the mythos of up. Crockett right like how how Davy Crockett kind of became remembered and even talk about Davy. Crockett generated like adjusted for inflation. I'm back to that subject. Davy Crockett generated more revenue in the nineteen fifties then. Gigo Right Superman Batman the bigger business. I think I forget the numbers but it's it was not. I wrote it down here because I know I wanNA get in trouble because you wrote the book a long time ago In in today's dollars three billion in one thousand nine I think it was like in nineteen fifty five and today's been three billion dollars name and their Davy Crockett Paraphernalia. FAKE coon skin caps. Mainly every kid in America wrote his bike around the fake coon skin cap and little lunch. Pails like rifles and stuff like that comes out when you go to McDonald's and the like there's like a happy meal offering and they're like in cahoots with a movie that came out like that or not a garbage. Yeah we call it these days. Yeah license licensed Crockett merge right. In fact you're talking about swinging back around. I mean it's bad call. Do you think you're going to write the book worker. Not read that book so fast. It'll make your I know you and and About it well. I don't know the market I. It's come up in my I in my research before I like I like figures that are sort of controversial. You know people still bans bad ass. Yeah if Iran in new shirt or something you know you might get you ask it depends on where you are. Yeah Okay you say about Crockett. I'm ready to talk about cracking up. Throw it out there. Well I was GONNA say how I got to KROC so I like how I because I didn't I mean I grew up in California for a short period. My Dad was from Louisiana. He moved to California to be a doctor and he was a general practitioner in Ketchum Idaho. After after we left California but I was I was in there in the sixties during the Crockett cray so I it was where you guys and catch them when Hemingway killed himself and catch them. That was like sixty three later later. Yeah I grew up with the Hemingway's Jack. Hemingway Hemingway's eldest son was my my French teacher. Actually and his daughter Mary owls classmate of mine and Private school that I went to but before we have you seen have you seen had no What's that movie is? Dwight Yoakam John Prime Not Dwight Yoakam John. prien Mariel Hemingway in John Mellencamp falling from grace. I haven't seen better gone anyway week. So we we moved. I was around the Crockett craze as a kid and I just sort of you know you couldn't escape it. I mean we lived. We lived you know. Twenty minutes from Disneyland and it was all my dad moved us to Idaho in nineteen seventy and you know I was like sort of left that part behind but much later when I started I had written written this chucker books on my learned hunting and fishing from my dad and I decided to write a book about chucker hunting and as it turned out you know it was like a pretty niche you know is there a great market for a book on Chucker hunting. No there's not a lot of people self when you ask someone like what are you into say chuckers Yelich. What's a chucker anyway? You know it was a five thousand. Ask the unlimited but anyway I wanted to. I had a lot of my first story I ever wrote. I was thirteen years old navy and it was about bird hunting ahead of chucker in it so I was oh. My Dad was a big time hunter. So and up reading this book and you're in the trat felt to you like very foundational one. Everybody knows about its jokers. And you know I'm not kidding. Getting you he's he knew a lot about shockers and he knew a lot of he he was a great he stole. He's out hunting in my nomads. In Dillon Montana hunting ducks today as telling you AH. He'll be eighty eight on Monday in each hunt. I mean every single day began but so we end up. I end up Brian. This book about Chucker hunting and so I'm thinking well I need. You know what I'm GonNa do with that so I was trying to get an agent at the time and so I sent it to this agent in New York name. Scott Waxman friend of friends. Yeah and so he. He calls me up after he read the book and he calls me and he's like there's a you know like in one thousand nine hundred thousand or something to that one. I got a flip phone. Pull over and he's like what are you doing. And I said well I was pull over got cell coverage here. I'm out. I'm out pheasant hunting. And he's like he's you know he's a New Yorker orcre with the romance of the Western idea you know. So he's like I read this great book about Chucker hunting and you're out pheasant hunting. You seem pretty into hunting. I'm like yeah you know I just pull your kind of cramping hunt right now. Frankly and I said listen. WHO's the greatest hunter in American history? I was like well. It's either B. Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett. You know and he said well. Aren't you. Go look and see if there's any been a book. Recently about either of those guys serves a somebody had written a book about Boone. I think he's Robert Morgan's name had written a book about Boone kind of recently and I look in there. Hasn't been anything on Crockett in fifty fifty years like a biography right so I called him back and I said how `Bout Crockett and he's like done right away. Better hundred I mean mean. Crockett was more talk about hunting politician. But you know Crockett created the mystique of I mean listen. We're still talking about him today. And and so but it worked out great so trucker hunting book led to a book about one of the Great Frontier Zeman in American history. I was really happy with that. Okay your new book coming out. Ah I'M GONNA leave this up to you. This is going to be like chef's choice author's choice I want. I WANNA talk. I WANNA do crash course on Crock. And here's why I I've read everything. Here is the read about boon. Yeah right down like the draper manuscript all that kind of stuff. I was Crockett ignorant. And what started me. Down needing to know about Crockett was that I would talk about was sort of a shit talker. Crockett it was in Texas. Get so mad real mad my friend Jesse Griffin. It's like he turns kind of red. If you say something bad about with anger if you say some bad about Crockett so that led me to think. He's a reasonable dude. That led me to think that I needed to go read up on Crockett. 'cause I also knew there was like a little bit of a mystery. Mystery Devi Cooper right. Well did he die at the Alma. At the Alamo. Would Crockett like go. We're down in a hail of bullets fighting or as some people now think was Crockett captured and in surrendered. Well right and those. You're Texas France. Do Not WanNa hear anything about as render pets. Those guys are getting way so I needed to know more about that led me to want to know more about crock and also the connection is connected in people's heads even the Organization the Conservation Organization. Boone and Crockett right right. which kind of bundle them together in a way that they don't they shouldn't they have no business being bundled together? I agree with that. I mean they were only i. I mean they're they're they're separated by a few decades anyway. Yeah like the height of Boone's adventures were around were around the revolutionary reward. Yeah well before I mean. Crockett died at the Alamo in eighteen. What thirty six? And you know I think but as as far I love that question you know about whether or not what actually happened at the Alamo. Because they're so much tied to you. Know Texans Texans tie so much to that going down in a blaze of glory mythology. That is it's almost. It's really interesting when you look at history. How well is that really? What happened You know a lot of the it's unfortunate but a lot of the research suggests suggests that he may well have just surrendered and been executed. And then they you know they were at that point They were the Mexicans were piling them up and making funeral pyres out of them so nobody really wants to remember Crockett. That way. You're and you know when they did the film. The Alamo as ten years ago Billy Bob Billy Bob Thornton it winds up being the only man standing is crock and it wasn't so much like he surrendered. He just got captured right until then. He's very defiant. Oh Yeah Talk Santa Ana Yeah Yeah they it kill them with the killing with bayonets. Yeah I mean I had to make sure actually was very careful that that movie came out while I was in finishing stages of the manuscript and I I made sure not to watch. I mean I didn't want Billy Bob in my head as like that. This is who even though. He's a great Crockett. But like I'm sitting there trying to you know great job. Yeah me too but I do move is not a great movie did a great job. He did a great he steals the show as he always does. But I didn't WanNa have like my Crockett that was in my brain. Be overtaken taken by Carl Children's and sling blade or something you know with a mustard. I didn't want that and so I was like I watched it after I watch it after I had finished a manuscript and then I was like okay no damn he kind of nails it but but as far as what actually happens there you know. I think it's hard not to get swept up with the mythos right because it's a better ending. You know if he it goes down firing outnumbered you know fifty to one or whatever it is made no more than that. Yeah and so all A. It's a lot of north part of the Alamo. Didn't realize the amount of being drunk and being sick to win. I mean you're yeah yeah these guys are like either. Drunk or mortally ill got dysentery and Larrea but yeah I mean. It's horrible right so I was going to ask if you wanted to talk about the really expedition. But it's give me nightmares man. It should so we're Crocker's all right then. We'll talk about the greely expedition. which is your new? This is your forthcoming book right. So Labyrinth of ice the triumphant and tragic set greely. Polar expedition is coming out on December. Third Oh and it's a really thrilled. It's it was tremendous project unbelievable unbelievable story. It has basically everything I should come out in December because to read about the being this cold old. When it's cold out is it's disturbing? It should be like a summer. Read my phone. I froze my thumb. Oh you're there's a ton of frostbite in this book. Yeah froze my thumb and now the skins coming off of it well in reading about these these students foot. He freezes raises his feet. So bad can't look and eventually footfalls off. They don't even tell him and he's still talking about how his foot tingles horrible stuff. And and then they they like tether fork to this guy's hand so that he can eat by himself feeding him. You know. Yeah we'll talk. It is but here's the thing you always hear about. Here's the Arctic. Arctic explorers and Antarctica Explorers. Like if you don't you're we always like. Oh yeah they go there and they're like of course you know but to really understand this job of explaining like step by step by step day by day by day like what exactly goes wrong and it's what goes wrong is complex very complex and it's not just like oh you went some real cold and died died. It's like governmental failures upon governmental failures in like like not understanding the climate well and not understanding like what's normal in Arctic abnormal in the Arctic and its series of unfortunate events. We'll get a job. Never have nothing to do. Well it depends that that was the double negative. Send me the Arctic. No okay get one. You didn't turn your clock on thank you to You GotTa let us know when we need to switch to still have time to talk about labyrinth of Ice Africa. Talk more about Crockett. Okay okay. I'm also because zero. You read the book a long time ago. You wrote a long time ago. So you're a little bit of a disadvantage but it's going to ask you about some things about Crockett right. We'll see how will you hold up. Okay I'm game because you now as a writer if I want to do an interview and some guy wanted to talk about something I wrote a million years ago. I'd be pissed. I know I'm I'm a little bitter but I want to work around it I I actually was primed slightly because a couple years ago I was I was a talking head on history channel show that was was well. The this one was I was on the other side of I was the person being interviewed. I was the Crockett guy on a show called the frontiers men. The men who built America. I was one of the boone guts. Yeah Okay and so I was crooked guy but you know it was one of those things where I was. I was freaked out because same what you're talking about. I mean I had written this book and the or between one and three and then it came out and no five and then here. I'm being you know your Crock Guy. So let's hear about it and I'm thinking God I should probably go read my book. Is that what I said but anyway I'm game. Yeah I'll make it up if I don't remember okay. I'll say it's the things that struck me about crock. Biography that learned about your book the fact that his old man the Pe- people in general were in the practice practice back then in the early eighteen hundreds of hiring their children out as indentured servants to settle debts. Like like you borrow money from a guy to buy some cows. The cows all drowning rivers say. Then the guy's back how about my boy lives on your place for a year exactly and routes our old stumps and shit in your field and then we'll call it even right. That's how this guy spent his childhood. I know in the one that blew me away was so his his own man is always in debt and Crockett was basically always in debt to Just the Ba- bad decisions and bad lot. Yeah you know. His man says saying you know what you're talking about. He's like Oh this guy. It's a bunch of money. So what if I send a little debbie on a like a cattle drive for four hundred miles. This going to last month's right in this little kid you know fourteen or think he was twelve the hook along you know product cattle staying in Rhode houses and like watching men drinking and horror and in Crockett's you know just sitting there as a little kid. You're right I mean he. He was gone for months at a time and We gave me some ideas about like some stuff. I should have probably done better with my son. Yeah he's not GonNa make money off that great but no you're right. I mean it was. It was such an amazing time where you would just do whatever you had to do. It was not uncommon to sort of sell out your kid for one point. He was gone for two years. Yeah does mets. The he he has gone about Tro- he likes smart. He pisses dad offense. Dad kicked his ass. Yeah well so he kept. He was playing hooky right right so he's playing. WHO said they're paying for him to go to school but he wasn't going to go to school he would go off it he would head off to school and then just not go to school? Oh Man at one one point Caught wind of this and he was like waiting for him on the on the road back to the House and his dad like whooped up on him with to Kane stick and then Crockett He. He he led out for a little while there. This is like coming into. He's coming of age. Yeah it is gone so long this where. It's almost like a fake story so here you don't all this like indentured servitude to satisfy his dad's debts. Dad Kicks his ASS. US He takes off for years goes works odd jobs like working on Mule trains and wagon things you almost got on a boat and sailed to Europe. Yeah tried to go to Europe other boss. Let them off the hook and believable. All this crazy stuff happens. But it's like out of homer's Odyssey Perot the product Sunday. A little bit we're right. Crockett goes back and he's he's been gone so long that he's able to go back and go into his family and not tell anyone who he is right and they actually get away for a minute right and is he sitting in a in a like a call. It wouldn't be a cafe but like you know. Like a roadhouse and his sister recognize him. It recognized him and then they're like. Oh my God did to David and at that point he makes he's really funny you know caucus it's very funny. But he makes some comment about how like yeah. I think it'd been gone long enough that my old man's ire was probably down by now. You know but he's still remembered the caning so you know he's he's like still looking over his shoulder a little bit and then went off cells bunch more debts and then Alerting like just kind of walk through like how this guy's life went. Ah The degree to which when he sets out like in those days we should establish like he's like a frontier character right. These are all like early whose family these transient people's absolutely explain how they're living somewhere and then getting displaced living somewhere rigging displaced right. So you know Crockett's life in many of the The frontier lifestyle. You know we look at it sort of romantically. But in many cases that was always about land I mean it still is but you know it was always about land and then trying to make a go of. That's right and a Lotta Times. Things didn't work out. You know in many cases Crockett's Family he would he would do he would start in on a project they would build a a gristmill right so they're going to grind flour and live on on the river and you know have a small plot and you know stake your claim and make a go of it the elements would just always mess with them so they would have like a you know a flood right. Takes out the gristmill right. So now Crockett's gotta go on like okay now. Weird borrowed all the money to build the right right now. He's like dad again so they would move. You know just up and go and then move onto the next thing and it just became this perpetual westward movement. In fact I mean his his entire life was a westward move. And that's one of the things that you know. I found interesting about. I like how he finally goes to the Alamo because he was ultimately just still looking for more land he was looking for a new start. Yeah it was just make life is about finding making making a new start. His old man to thing. I kind of got because I knew that. was you know several decades early with Boone where they'd always be going on the American in frontier. You'd always have people who poor and yearning to like make their way right like sort of capitalism at work and they'd always be moving to a place they kinda weren't supposed to be in Boone's air it was like because the British had said the British had Indian allies west of the Appalachians British. Said said we don't want any of our American colonists like don't go over there and what did the first thing that they do is like well. I'm going to go over there so go there live. And then I'll they'll sort it out eventually sorted it out in the end and there's always like people and it contains and Crockett's air people like sort of jumping the gun like the Louisiana purchase happens and they have like we did the purchase but weren't really clear on what we bought right and there's already they immediately start moving these places being like. Yeah it'll work out. Yeah let San Dan Lewis and Clark and see how much we actually have. Yeah we were like well dude. Already move there so get right well in case it gets complicated to buy the you know the fact that there were Indian people already living there all right so you know that's not even supposed to be there from that perspective to write and at one of the things I really found endearing about Crockett is his. You Know He. He was a complicated figure but so he was very sensitive to Even though he had spent some time under Andrew Jackson like going off hunting coming up yeah he used to put it that way. Like hunting up Indian. Yeah he's they use the term like he got sent down to Florida Hundred Creek war. He'll up kill up some engines since you know in your old Indians and so but you know even within that I think he had a lot of reverence for the fact that you know he lived off the land. They live off the land. He was you know so I had firsthand knowledge of learned from tribes the encountered. And you know He. He was the only delegate. I believe that voted against the Indian removal. Act It from Tennessee so made a huge political price right to you know he got. He got that struggle goal. He understood that because he had spent his whole life. You know in hard scrabble existence. Just trying to EEK out something and you know so. That's one of the things that I really found around. I connected with that aluminium persona in his. I want to talk about his political career a little bit but a thing about his political career like kind of his sorta his foundational thing. Like if you imagine a universal health care being like Obama's thing right Obamacare obamacare thing Crockett's thing as a congressman was to basically legitimize squatters right because he was cheap sheep squatter like Attila legitimize. All those people that headed off in the wilderness and weren't really that clear where they were who owned. What and they built a cabin right to like give them the land and that it was sort of his thing that was like his thing and he could never drive it across at off? You know what I found really interesting about that. Is that through all that process. I mean he was basically Szekely Predator representing the common man. You know he was. He was a representative of the common man and ear. Right I mean he never really he didn't he was. He failed to pass basically any any bills. He was always out hunting. You know he preferred he preferred running to politicking but he ended up being very good at politicking. Right so he he was he he was able to create this kind of Mystique and persona and I I mean I call him the first celebrity. I mean you can maybe say that Benjamin Franklin was the first celebrity. Yeah but you usually use the term. Yeah that's why I feel. It was interesting to look his political career and then look at trump's political career. Can you talk about. The Crockett. Was the first American to be famous for being famous right. I mean people title New People liked them because it just knew that he was famous right. And I mean we're talking about you know at a time. When newspapers moved very slowly early across the frontier right and information the passage of information was done? You know on horseback and through on riverboats right. And so you've got a guy who was a profound he was able to create such a frenzy and a mystique about himself. I mean plays were written about him during his lifetime. I'm he went to him. He went to a play watching a guy playing him. You know he's in the audience and he's like I you know I am nobody. There was not the term celebrity at the time but I don't believe But you know he was able to become such a commodity that people would line nine the streets when they heard he was coming. And you know like reach out to try to touch him as he went by you know and then he would be feted and he would be. Oh you know given all sorts of honorary awards and he hadn't really ever done anything. I WANNA backup a little bit to talk about. When he kind of comes of age? He's young man and he sets out very deliberately to find find a wife and it's it's a really good way of thinking about how frontier cultures worked and like frontier situations worked where people were so pragmatic. There's a quote you have in the book that I've been using all Tasmania favorite quote. No one knows what the hell it means. But it's you got assault the cow if you want to catch the cast off the counter catch the CAP. So he's like pragmatic transactional relationships that would happen within frontier communities whereas like right I have a daughter. Yeah could probably fetch me a good. I play my cards right. Fielder wrangle this daughter into a helpful son-in-law right and he's like I'm a helpful man I gotta do like to get my hands on your daughter and it's like it's like it's like you're buying cattle. Yeah a ah the term you used. Pragmatic is so appropriate. And it's true it's like what are you got. What am I give you for it? And Yeah he was really the the whole salt the cow to catch the calf was funny because Crockett understood that if the mother if he sweet talked to mom right he was flirting with the mom. Mom you know he was working mom and and then you know he had. He had to win her over. You know assault to get his bride for a real miss. You had in the book. Greater sex lives they promiscuous. That's interesting does anyone. Is there any way to know when they're courting in in in sneaking around the woods and having little chats plotting and figuring green are they having sex or not. I'm guessing they're having sex. Yeah so you think the promise Cudi on the frontier. Yeah Yeah. I'm almost certainly listening. Listen they don't lose. The Clark. There was a lot of promise on that expedition. Crockett was very careful in crafting his own image so he wrote his his own autobiography like during his lifetime knowing that it was going and he was like really funny he said I wanted to beat over two hundred pages. If it was two hundred pages it was worthwhile. Pretty random measure of good to to become in a it is like crafted this very carefully and so you know he when he talks about courtship and. He's a little coy about at that stuff. And I think there was always like like. Yeah Lewis Clark is how they phrase it they don't intimate then you. He later. Learn children hiring kids. And that's things like you could sort of this one thousand nine hundred fifties version of what frontiers people were like right. I mean they're doing it in the woods dollar. Yes ma'am no Ma'am with these. People are some greasy o double dealing island in the saint like not patriotic. Not necessarily because like the idea of the. US is still taking shape right. Yeah what country my Rienscher American. I don't know I mean they got land going is is because survival trumped all that other stuff. Yeah just just think. Yeah like drunkenness. Yeah probably yeah. There was a lot of time to ponder patriotism. When you're trying to figure out like how you're gonna a eat that night you know or if you're going to you know if you're going to be able to have shelter is tough? And he was kind of a surprise tries to is he was sort of on the fence about religion. had a hard time with it. Yeah Times trying to become more faithful. Struggled with his leg struggle with his own lack of faith. Yeah well don't don't some of US people do. Yeah I mean he's honest about that too Because at that time you know it was very important to mean. Faith was such an anchoring part of one's life on the frontier. I mean you had that you had family faith but yeah he struggled with it. You didn't really talk too much about it. As a matter of fact I mean in terms of his own he sort of ambivalent. 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Then there's there's a scene I dunno if you read that scene when there's a section that I almost can't read anymore when he recalls what happened there Because he so they they're retaliating for a massacre that had happened Crockett's in this small band of You know so called Old Indian fighters. Yeah Yeah I I wish I had it from the name of the some of that look this up forums. The four members were the creeks came in and massacred the whites Ryan and the whites. Retaliated this this total warfare. No kidding yeah and Crockett was on this small squad that came in for retaliation and they they had been told that there were much creek Indians at at this. Actually they had the Creek Indians had overtaken afford and were still there and so there were women and children and and Crockett in a bunch of men came in and he says you know we shot them like dogs and there's a really sort of horrific image it can never shake the potato thing. Yeah on so there's like a potato cellar and these They light they shoot all the Indians and then they light. These buildings on fire and Crockett describes the the the green. They ended up eating the potatoes. And he describes the grease from these humans that has basically melted from the fires drip down and sort of season. These spaces. This bud's leads each frigging brutal man. There's some all those massacres you get like now in the wars we have now with the the rules of engagement. You know we talk about how horrific war is now. Here's what I'm trying to get at when you read about the American frontier in a move dry at this point. In frontiers health northern Florida's part of the American frontier. At this time for the West people talk about Oh. Politicians nations are so crooked now or were so violent. Now Dude Oh man the crookedness and atrocities atrocities that people would commit knows times to like just go into a village of people now like not like not like it's something we'll get prosecuted for warcrimes. It'd be celebrated you'd go into village and do total warfare. Meaning kill every man man woman and child you can get your hands on and then burn every piece of evidence that they ever existed eight to budge. Eat the SPA and then go the next town right and but I will say that Crockett. He seemed to authentically feel guilt about that and shaken. You Know Oh yeah and you know. I mean who wouldn't be like in those days. Yeah I mean we would you think of it as just you could move on you know but we now know that you know what with with with soldiers coming back from war. PTSD and That you know any human who perpetrates that kind of violation on another human no matter how. Oh you're gonNA justify it in your mind being you know your job in the army It's GONNA leave a mark. There's two contemporary Westerns. The come out recently. The sisters brothers which is walking Phoenix and John C reilly which I think is a phenomenal western and then the Christian Bale L. One cost West ducey hostels duty both of those movies. It's like every like Westerns. Always do for us like every generation get thrown western. Hopefully so you like in the seventies a Western in the seventies felt like the seventies right right as like Oh Sundance kid and say oh. They're smart talkers. Detached like the party right right. That's what it Westerns. And now these contemporary Westerns they're mostly about is the fact that everybody on the frontier onto your PTSD. They're all just walking around like it's like Arby's yeah but it's revelatory. Of course they. Did you like the things that Crockett was even a hard drive in like he was hired into the military to be hunter to meet for the army but he still had exposure to things that just like things that no person sees right. Bert like piling up dead women and children in piles and torturing the piles house of them. And it's just like yeah no shit like you had been a mess or I mean maybe certain people have the ability to compartmentalize shit in ways that It's harder to do anymore. I don't know it has to be that there had violence. It's okay the way of looking at this point. I brought before filming dead people. Have you seen a a lot of three. But they've all been made up and put an album about your business dead I zero. I've seen handful Just freakishly at a Old Lady's birthday party wants indicator fell dead. I watched my dad die some car crash victims airplane crash victims. But I feel like I've run into a lot of it a lot of people you can go to thirty forty years old and not see dead people but these guys. I'm surprised they can get around with all the dead people laying relative stepping. Everybody's dead dying. In a much younger age your wife lawyer died. She was having a baby and she's dead and haul her out back and like yeah it you could say that they are inured to it in some way you know maybe the death that yeah it was it was all over the place and That's what a lot of the I think westerns. Don't sort of focus on really. It's like the you know the impact of that kind of thing. Yeah Walk Sisters Brothers. I'm I'm sorry. Yeah I'm sorry I mean I just. I'm like the last person in the world to have just finished deadwood right you know I heard the movies coming out so I was like I'd better catch up and watch the show. Sisters brothers is phenomenal. But it didn't do well when people like us. The death of the western I think westerns arrived again. Yeah let's let's keep moving along. CROCK had had bad malaria. Yeah well right. So that's why when you're funny you're talking about earlier how everybody was Just lying around either drunk or sick and partly or against it gets echo or drink trying to drink Through your sickness but you know Oh. Everybody had malaria. Not Everybody. But you know there wasn't really A remedy for malaria that time in fact that look that up when you know when did Malaria medicine we called the bilious. Fevers the bilious fever you you know and so people are just. He's out there trying to do his business. It out there trying to hunt out there trying to get food trying to build cabins and you know. They're like shaking feverishly racially and not able to hold her food. And you know he'd been down in Florida but he also in Tennessee so he's he's got. He's Got Malaria Ben at times. He's almost freezing to death right. Having a bout of malaria rightly they can still got it and he's thirty two snow right. You think of it as tropical right right. Yeah I mean it's stole my God. Let some of those stories where he's like really sick and he's out in the woods and he breaks through the ice and he gets you know completely basically. He's walking around hypothermic. And in order to hypothermic and Scott Malarial. You'll want to punch yeah and so to stay warm. I love this one sequence when he notes. Oh shimmied up this tree like multiple times and then he he he will shimmy up to the top of the tree which doesn't have a lot of branches on it. And then he slides down it to create war punch body by the friction of finding on this frigging tree. He's stuck on the woods overnight. Says that he one hundred times climbed shimmied it to warm the inside of his legs arms and belly with the friction to not die he's like becomes translated trick. Man Yeah I mean you might try it on one of your next time if you get frostbitten. His he had he has interesting things. The thing that surprised me to You talk about this. Is that his uncle. My Mom's brother is out hunting once and see something moving into grapes. Kosice of the movement thinks it's a bear. Picking Grapes shoots at his neighbor. Better grant and Crockett says how is dead. Put a a silk handkerchief. How this came up? I don't know put a silk handkerchief into one side of them and drew out the other side of everyone thought the guy would die. It's like F- losses like flaw says the whole out with a silk handkerchief. The Guy Lives and no one knows what happened to him but he got better and went away. Yeah I I love that That scene and you want to think like when someone shoot one hundred shoots person thinking it's game like not only. Did you think it was was a deer. You thought it was a buck in. You thought you were aiming at its lungs so bought low behold does a person and now they're gut shot yeah. Crockett was always great at the at the detail. I mean you know the image of that handkerchief passing through this whole guys. It's awesome he. He like he did kill help. Lot bears the the numbers of black bears pretty staggering. And it's like every time have you tried to get businesses going. But he'd always kinda resort going. He go hunting market hunting. Yes that's what he liked to do. So everything would go to share you take off and go hunting. Everything Goes Shit. Take off go hunting. We talks about. He found out what you do A. He finds a guy who crackdown one of his hunting. Expeditions finds a guy who has hired on with the landowner to dig stumps and roots to outfield. And he's like like. Why are you doing this work of growing out the field the guest is? I don't have any money. Can't buy any meat from my family. So Crockett talks dude into working for him. Packing can bear meat and salt in it and they go off that day and they kill forebears. They hunt for another week and they kill seventeen bears and as payment for the weeks bear hunting labor. Crockett sends the man home with one thousand in pounds of bear meat which the man and his family than eight for a year. At one point kraken hunting partners go on the fall kill. Fifty eight bears the bears hibernate. They come out in the spring they go back out and kill forty seven so that year he killed a hundred and five black bears. And you you point out as much as like Crockett was prone a little bullshit. You say that it was confirmed by a host of his contemporaries. The date had a hell of a year there. Yeah Banner Year hundred and five black bears. What's the most that I've ever been taken in? That state of Montana in one year has got to be a great question. Yeah well I mean I guess I mean if there was yeah he put a big dent in the so they put a big dent. Contemporary Annual Harvest Tennessee. Yeah and I always wonder wonder you know to what extent obviously Crockett was a teller of tall tales. Boondocks that up but they they'd kill hundred bears. I mean there were a lot of bears around and he talks about killing thirteen in a day. Once with but you guys yeah and large packs. Yeah Yeah. I mean very effective The Crockett also claims to kill bear with his knife. You know that that is Well he shoots it and then he has. It cornered leave real credit his version of. It's pretty believable. That he gets into crippled up and it gets into a whole and he turns into a skirmishing but he he. It's funny you were talking about the the how he was rooting out those stumps he always had these These phrases that are kind of memorable you never know what the hell is exactly talking about like He. They're aerobic outfield said. Yeah you gotTa Root Hog or die like okay. Yes you do life advice telling me you gotTa Root Hoggard is salt cow. Catch the cast on route. HOGGARD I so the guy gets crock eventually gets into politics. Right accidentally early like people Florida's name kind of joke runs with it and it brings up this weird thing where people like Crockett. Because he's a hillbilly. He's a gentleman from the Kane. Kane breaks of the like the frontier. He's like a bear hunter and he had to play that up. Right were with this constituency like because he's campaigning on the frontier and people wanted to see like this frontier sensibility. Great Hunter and you kind of more cared about like he would buy votes by jugs of Whiskey. Oh I love that. One of his great techniques was to you know he would go you know. Did they call them. Stump speeches actually actually stood on stomps. You know and and talk to whoever would listen to them and Yeah he would always let the other person go first and then he'd listen to whatever one one one time he just let the other guy go first. And then he like basically recited his whole speech back again and then and then during that time he was handing Out Plugs of tobacco chewing tobacco and whiskey. And you know saying like here volt for me he was. I'll give you this and you vote for me. It sounds like quid pro quo. But you know he was good at it he got it. He understood people and they liked him you know. He was a likable Kabul guy and he was hilarious storyteller and he you know he would build on the with elaborate and. I'm sure that he was exaggerating. Some of the time but he also understood but human nature and then they wanted to be told a story they didn't want to be told I don't know what he was going to do for them exactly. I don't think he knew what he was going to do for them. Exactly and did nothing tried as you talk a house hard to get around in the frontier back then and so when two people to opponents campaigning like their campaign for a congressional seat made sense they had to travel and room together. Gather sounds like Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump chill raveling clean together in rooming together at night in arranging campaign. Speeches to then get up in the morning have breakfast together go right. Tear each other a new one in front of an audience and then move on to the next town right and he was like you talk about the Crockett. He always liked to go second because he was memorable in funny and he just wanted to leave the more. Yeah some of that one time. He's traveled. This is guy and he. He always goes Sacchi. Listen to him and eventually he has to go first and he gets nervous so what he does. He hurt his opponent speech so many times he just gives you. Opponents speech leaves the guy with nothing to say because it's like is recited stump speech in Crock had already given right doesn't have a backup speech. Yeah they you can just go to and he talks to like thing. That crocodile is kind of funny. Is He's campaigning. He's campaigning against in traveling with a guy who's lost the leg and the guy has a wooden peg and they go out and they're staying in the guy's house brutal in. Crockett takes a wooden chair. And at night mimics I mix the sound of the wooden would mimics the sound of him walking around and goes and bangs on the the daughter. Water the farmer's daughter's bedroom door she gets upset and starts yelling and he makes him with his wooden chair back to his room to create the impression in the farmer's mind that the man who is missing a leg tried to sneak into his daughter's bedroom strip his daughter. Yeah Crockett was diabolical politics stuff. Yeah we talk about how you know. cutthroat politics are now. I mean these guys were just they were. They were terrible. Terrible terrible yeah. He had to play the bumpkin right but then like everybody who he played the Bumpkin and railed against hated the rich yet. He so badly Adler wanted to be rich. He wanted to be rich bad. Yeah I'm which is like like most people are in a situation right like when you're poor for rich people like so so you're telling me right now by Lake was like dude. Here's here's a few million bucks you'd be like I don't want it. I hate the rich orange. Take it so fast right now. Yeah but I think he he was Crockett was probably torn by that a lot. Because you know he I think what what he wanted more was to just be to have the freedom to not always be behind. You know what a lot of people was not being debt debt. Just did you know all the time and have that chasing you you know. And so he did what he could you know. And if that meant like reshaping the way his persona was he you know he was cameleon he was just good at being what people wanted to see Yeah but I think he did want I. I don't no no that he wanted like finery. You know because the happiest you know. He didn't WanNa get when you gave an opportunity to do what he really wanted to do. Advantage in the woods hunt and he's like get my gun in dogs. I'm going out. Yeah it's kind of a sad part of his political career as he gets to Washington and they turn they turn his hillbilly stuff against them like he's had some formal dinner and a waiter goes to clear his plate and he did or didn't think that the waiter is trying trying to steal his food and they had finger bills back then it was just an he got thirsty and was drinking out of the finger bowl and he's like. Don't don't Jack My meal and the guys just trying to train tickets played away. And he's like that back. I eat food right. It's really turned it against them and that he was like in the finer minor circles. It was like he was a buffoon and hurt his feelings. Man Yeah I mean you can see that if you if you you know nobody wants to be made to look like you're not appropriate or that you're not you don't have the right closer that you have good manners you know but then they were brutal to because they would just write about it in the papers and say you know the Bumpkin Buffoon Crockett. Who tried to drink out of the finger bowl you know and then it totally ruins your Your your image. Yeah and he was all about like building him it and it made you less effective right in doing the job of like trying to pass laws. We never figured out no terrible politician. I had a thing. Anatomy is in a I was in Manhattan in my wife. We went to a restaurant we were in a big fight fight about. She's Super Mad at me and I went and it was like a bathroom mirror. She'd she'd know the name of this restaurant is a bathroom where there is a big circular. I think the IT's like a fountain right in. The Fountain is communal. It's Coed Fountain but off. The Fountain is the men's room in the women's room but I was a little drunk and animated in a fight with my wife and I come down and I think that I'm in the men's room. You not own Mayor Urinating in the fountain your show so a woman comes in and there are gassed. I had I had a sweater on T. shirt and so she comes in and she's got like Oh my God was going on. Yeah and scurries into the women's room and then I'm like I'm GonNa get found out so I had sweat around and a t shirt and I took my sweater off so I looked. So she's she's like he's got a green sweater. They wouldn't have pegged but my wife's a mad at me I get back to the table and I can't be like you'll never guess what happened. No you want to tell her. And so I'm sitting here in my t. Yes you're waiting at any minute to someone. Come up strangle me for having like you know what have you done for have exposed myself and his like like normally I come out and be like you'll never happen but because we are in a fight I couldn't really bring it up and then also in also weird thing one time and we're having had finger bolt but they also had these little things you dip crabbing the butter rain the ramifications. Those are in my mind. I was drinking the butter right. My Wife's she still holds today. I was drinking the contents. The finger bowl. You're drinking the other little container. which was the butter container? Insure you shouldn't drink drinking the finger bowl so when I got into the finger bowl right. Crockett hit a personal bet. Your bumpkin too. I will note. I WANNA move onto quick Ding. We don't talk about too much but it's interesting to see how conflicted Crockett was like like Jackson. Jackson wanted to get all this money. He wanted five hundred thousand dollars because he wanted to relocate Cherokee chocks all these people want to relocate them out west everyone was in support of it on the frontier and Crocker took Michael massive political hit and thought it was immoral to move him yet he had slaves man. Yeah he actually. Here's Alex Alex gave his family. Some slaves right so you think that's a You know call it a contradiction in contradiction. Listen Man I really try not to like do the thing that everyone. When does these days which is take like contemporary notions and engage? People's you'll get anywhere with that stuff but I mean it's just surprising. Yeah it this surprising and it goes back though to his I think you know maybe some guilt about The Indians that he had bravely killed having firsthand experience with the way way that the Indians lived and he was trying to live basically off the land to and then you know you've got this guy who was also about he. He can aid Jackson Man. He you didn't like that guy and you know here so he he was kind of Jackson. Contra snubbed him during the creek war right in Karachi wasn't able to rise up through the ranks and then they he also contentious like in in the halls of Congress. They were contentious all the time. Crockett like made nicknames forum and all the old Hickory and old old hickory was yeah yeah spins on it. Yeah Yeah but so crooked I think just you know wanted to be contrary also at that point. He's like you know this is what I'm going to but but I think cynically saw the That moving people from their homes and displacing them you know the hundreds of miles away was wrong and he doubled down on it. Yeah like he knows the end though. Yeah politically like ends his political career and and in later he's like I would do the same thing today. Yeah yeah and I don't care who brought it up. Yeah he says it cast that vote. It was basically like vote your conscience. You know like the old. Ross Perot vote your conscience. He wins a congressional term. Then winds up losing a congressional term when he campaigned. Excuse me about how like like how he'd stick to his word when he was campaigning. He said if I don't win I'm going to Texas I'm done. He says Yo Y'all can go to hell and I'm going in Texas and he loses. And what does he do. He just strikes out for Texas rounds up a bunch of his buddies and he's famous rainy starts in Texas and every time he comes through. They know he's coming into hooting and Holleran and he winds up thinking it's going to be the promised land in Texas and very quickly. Why about a little place called the Alamo? He he bumbled into the Alamo. I mean the guy was not like seeking seeking battle or seeking. He was seeking. He wanted good hunting. The a bunch of land right right and so you know it was one of those really bad. It's bad timing for Crockett. I may be great. Timing for his legacy. You know Immortality but it was bad timing in terms of like being able to get it. You know forty acres connection I saw between the establishment of the Republika taxes axis. And the Alamo and everything what what brought an I and I read a lot of books about the frontier but a connection. I didn't realize until I read your book was was the settlement practices that in going to Texas and getting in trouble with the Mexicans in the Mexican army. Really really wasn't like that different than what his parents had done and where he'd always done because earlier brothers idea that like you're trying to find a free ground right and so you're always he's moving to places where it's not like you're sorting the details out later right and somebody is always almost always already there. And someone's always like yeah. You really shouldn't go over there rate and he figured out like the Brits are like we don't watch it over there and then tribes like you know we conceded like we made a deal in this is our land and you can come here and you're like oh go figure it out and then you like steak claim but you never really file it and then later guys like I did it too and you have a big fight one of you moves and it goes on and on and so it wasn't like it probably didn't feel that weird to him to be going to Texas when you're sort of aware of the idea that there is a government that saying this is my ground right like all sorted out later right and we'll figure it out when we get there and we may or may not there may not even be boundaries or may not be an a ownership is sort of questionable right. Let's just figure it out though you know. So when he ends up at the Alamo. That's the point where you have to decide like how you feel about Crockett right. I mean we started yarded there but that I think you know you either think here's a guy who bumbled into a skirmish that he had no knowledge of really you know he you just. He's in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or you believe you can convince you to die for an ideal. Many people have convinced convinced themselves that that's what happened that he went there to die for an ideal for you know American dream and it's like the American dream yet no but we like to call it the American dream right. It was laying opportunity. You have you read about allow. Those guys were kind of like America. Sure but they wanted like like Texas. Yeah Yeah Yeah I mean they were also wanting to You know be separate from everybody else. They weren't like by God. We're taking the American flag. It was a little bit of that but it was. It was just kind of like what they wanted right. Like land land and land and they all died. The Animal Santana comes in. He says this is an interesting about the death is after. It doesn't take long. In general. Santa Anna of leading the Mexican army says they tried to be like well. let-let's talk at this point. There is no talking right. You will all die and by the way tomorrow morning and we're coming and there's not there is no chat right and they put up a flag says you all die and they all died right and there's some really haunting moments you know when you slow it down and you start and you think about being inside the Alamo and looking out you know through through through the the logs and slats and you see you know maybe three thousand Mexican troops well armed on horseback. And you're you know. A couple of hundred guys is in this enclosure. Go and you know you're basically it's over. I mean there's no like you said there's no more discussion they're coming and it. It happened so fast you know like it's it's over in. I mean maybe an hour. Yeah and then it's just like swarmed upon these images. I always had like of them. Throwing those ladders up and just coming wave after wave after wave You know with muskets and bayonets and just impaling them. You know it's brutal. It's brutal in Sam. Houston destroy voice. Santa Anna's army in one thousand nine minutes well was it. Was the era of retaliation right so okay watch his transition. Listen fifty years goes by and we're trying to settle fifty years goes by and our country is like hey man we should see what's going on in the Arctic. Let's head North explained the quest for farthest north well L.. So it's really interesting. People I mean at the time Let's say you know eighteen fifties and Franklin incline and. Nobody really says a little slow to punch all right. We've moved on to Laverick of ice triumphant and tragic greely polar expedition addition. which is Buddy Levi's brand book? Thank you yeah so what I found really compelling and I've been drawn to Arctic stories for a while while I mean you know ever since probably I mean great North Stories. You probably grew up reading Jack London too and yeah down there have been. I never been into the organized exploration. Yeah I'm not even a big Lewis and Clark guy the freewheeling individuals yeah well in this case what was so interesting is is that no one knew say the my book is set. This book is set in eighteen. Eighty one and at that time no one had been to North Pole. Aw No one even knew. There was a belief that the North Pole was a ring of ice circumnavigating the poll and within once you broke through this layer of ice the seas were actually tropical. That's how confused people were. That's what they thought happened. That's W- WHOA. That's what they thought that. That's what they thought was up there. I mean now listen So the British had been going up in Franklin trying to make the northwest passage much earlier but essentially you know there was so much unknown that the you know. Higher Northern Latitudes were speculated about what actually existed up there now they had been you know there was for some reason people always want to go farther higher higher right so this farthest north holy grail became something that was a big patriotic badge of honor. You were the you'd gone further north than any other human to ever been but greely in his guys go up to the Arctic Him and twenty five guys right so it's really a a strange group of people in in a way because they really had been running the signal the army signal corps and he so he was a guy who who had put up telegraph lines across the American southwest but he had a fascination with the Arctic and he'd read all about you know previous Arctic expeditions. He'd read about Franklin he'd read about Cain and Beaumont and these people these Brits who had been up north and come back and survived written diaries in accounts and journals. He had all this so he ends up. Going up to the he was was part of this thing called the international polar year and so there was this scientific element to it so they send twenty five American soldiers from the Basically from the Signal Corps they were plucked out of the American southwest. Many of them had spent hard winters in the southwest. But they never been to know none of these men had ever been to the Ark and these guys had been like a little bit involved in the punitive expeditions after the custer massacre a little bit yeah in fact brainerd. One of those guys had had been under no miles Nelson Miles Miles Nelson Nelson Miles and so they were tough hardened men who were good that living in the outdoors but they had no idea what they were getting into A couple things separate this expedition from others like it and one is that they so they were part of this. There was a three pronged reason that they went there. One was to create the farthest north weather station in the world and they were it was in concert with like fourteen other countries. This Austrian guy created this thing called the first international polar. So they're going to go up there and build a Basically a weather station along house they brought all the word for it and then they were also going to try to find what had happened to. This ship called the Janette hat which Hampton sides writes about in in the Kingdom of ice. So we'd had two years ago two years before the Jeanette had gone on missing never to be heard of right so greely is going up north to set up weather station. Try to see if there's anything going on with this this Jeanette and along the captain whom he knew and then to try to break the record farthest north. That was his secret goal. He didn't any really talk about it much but in his diaries he does and they basically like going out of New York can take a left right. I mean and you wind up between Ellesmere Island and green and yeah the top green atop of Greenland. So it's incredible. If you know the journey up there is harrowing it. You know what ends up happening happening. is they set up a longhouse. Sixty five foot long house. You know twenty five. We explain something because this is part of how everything goes bad. I think it's important to point out. Yeah they get dropped off right. And it's an unseasonably warm summer and a sail up and drop them off the hill up. And you're like hey we'll come back next summer right with the plan. Is they get dropped off with all his frigging lumber and thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds of food and they're taking up in a in a steamship called the proteas right and so then they're dropped off in. The plan is okay. We'll come we'll resupply you next summer and if we don't come back next summer we'll we'll definitely come the next summer after that we promised. But what's so weird is you're right so it's like the warmest the clearest this channel that goes up through you know it goes goes through the Lincoln. Pardon me it goes through Smith sound. The Kane Basin The Lincoln's delinquencies above Mel Bay Melville Bay. And you get up to where it narrows and dismiss dismiss sound and then it opens up into the Kennedy Channel and they're in this little spit this little in inlet called Lady Franklin Bay and rates. The plan is that they're gonNA build us. Longhouse do a bunch of science. Take you know. Hundreds of readings a day eat seals and polar bears and and musk oxen and very good musk oxen hunting up there by the way then they do pretty well. Yeah Yeah and then well. Let's see when when the weather's good because it's GonNa be dark for one hundred thirty consecutive days When the weather gets better we'll go and try to break the record of farther north or even go to the North Pole if we can pull that off? And surely they'll come and resupply us and you know that when what I love about. This story is that there's this incredible dichotomy between the you know the first two they spend Thanksgiving and Christmas right. And it's you know they got the oral. Aurora borealis analysis. Going on it's just like fireworks every night right and they're they've got tons and tons of food and parties Thanksgiving parties. Elaborate meals are doing in shooting competitions out on the ice are smoking cigars. They're just living large man they're eating lobster they brought all the shit right and and you realize like so then everything looks good. You know. They're going on expeditions farthest farthest. Nor the bag that sucker the farthest west Then he sends a couple of guys and they go way West Map. I'll ellesmere island discoveries waving the flag there like you know what we're crushing this and then the ice starts to form in the Kennedy Channel Right in there and I love the fact that they spend a great deal of time looking out at the ice because every day they send someone to climb the hill to look for the boat. Climb up there and it's like is the vote coming you know and then they said the vote doesn't come the first summer and then they're like well that's you know we gotTa Shitzu. It'll make it even better when their next. We'll be really psyched. Can write letters home honey but then starts to get kind of grim and Greeley. Of course what I love about him is. He's not idle so he's like okay. Well let's keep foreing. Let's try to even go farther. Are there north. and He sends you know he's got. These two GREENLANDIC are interesting mainly Greenlandic Eskimos right so they asked him bread. eskimo Fred Yen's Christianson. They're really cool and they'll those guys tear it up Omega. Yeah Yeah and so what they when they had gone up. They picked up really knew that they needed Dogs and GREENLANDIC drivers who could handle them and so he he negotiates aged to pay these guys named enlisted in the army and and then so they go on their. They're waiting for those kind of like heroes. Oh my God so oh I mean I you know I get sad for Eskimo Fred when I think about him. I don't want to build sort of spoiler you know well ESKIMO French Njit Hans Christian Center also are there. They're not only good dog drivers. They're good shots and they're really good in kayaks right. So you know the Greenlandic People's the the INNUENDO and the todd. These guys are from like they're called Ito wide these days. They say blue-eyed Eskimo or something like that and the old days. I'm going to say that in the days thing I mean because I mean when you think about interaction with Europeans. You know but No I haven't heard the expression actually thought Stephenson. Yeah you know. The Arctic Explores Defensive. But always trying to and we'll say that I it's an expert. Bring them next but so oh you know they've got they've got these sled dog drivers and really keeps sending out forays. That's part of the story that I really loved. Loved how they go on these expeditions. And they're they're burly man they're like going out for sixty days in you know minus average minus fifty degree temperatures carrying and they. They've got these elaborate sort of stoves that burn. You know these fuels that they're able to like in in severe winds able to strike a fire in these like funnel stoves and then you know he'd up like frozen stew meat that they've they've got brought along in burn fuel and so on and Shit and so then they go out you know and come back. Maybe two months slater right. So it'd be two guys brainard and Lockwood. These are two of the main expeditionary guys and then and then ask him a friend. Yen's you tell me Yeah. He Ends Cristianos Jhansi animals. But so you know this is why it's called the triumph the triumphant in tragic because the first part of this There's a ton of triumph to me you know in what humans are able to achieve in terms of teamwork and being out for days and days on end the things that you guys do you know like comparably gone for years pre GORTEX and they're you know in Greeley like they're actually testing out all sorts of really preferred wool and oil skin to seal skin because he got really tried to wear what the native peoples were wearing but he found it. Really Um clammy I mean. They didn't even breathe so he was using. He would use thick like boiled wool. Well oil skin kind of drove her coach on the outside right sleeping bags real quick. Oh my God it's actually to imbed buffalo-hide sleeping bags and dog hair sleep. They would make sleeping bags out of dogs and was twenty s because I know a little bit that world well they were gone so they went up. Eighty one. Yeah it was interesting because the L- asked sort of like the last big organized slaughter of Buffalo. Oh yeah was in Mile City because you're named after general miles was in miles city in the winter. Eighty one eighty two was the last big commercial ursel slaughter and it was funny. These guys are gone and they've got all this. They got all these coats and sleeping bags and stuff made out of these hides and they're gone and probably unbeknownst to them them know. Animals are like sleeping in sleeping bags. Made from an animal that is simultaneously tip toeing precariously close to extinction unbelievable and the president dies right. Oh my God. So that's what. Yeah there's a lot going on. I love that idea that they have no idea that you know while we're out here. The communication was so there's nothing they build Cairns and and Leave notes in huge rock Cairns but yeah so this lean bags were were awesome because these guys they will have three man seem bag so they. It was so cold that if you weren't like nut too but with your bro. You're probably going to freeze to death. So they have three man. Buffalo had sleeping bags and they all climb in. And just I snuggle you know at night for months on end you know and then get out of them and you know like go on track for twenty twenty miles over the is broken ground. Meaning you know. It's not flat there either. I mean it's very there's mountains around there that are up to four thousand five thousand feet four thousand feet so these guys are just like moving along incredible the kind of deprivation they could endure yet. YEA carrying bag year Buffalo Heiser have heavy and so they have a they have like these really cool sledge's we haven't established why they need to split so talk about why the need to split an end how they move so far. They haven't moved. Oh but I'm talking so well Greeley before the okay solicitous backing up for a second so first winter they have a great time party. Go back farther north. Everything's cool then summer. Were you rescue or resupply doesn't happen Greeley still keep sending out you know four as to try to go. They'll discover new you land in Greenland which he does and they're going off at this point on these sledges with two men driving the sledge driving this legend then they're carrying a whole bunch of their gear on Nisa just in the dogs are Holland. But there's a lot of time in the drag ropes too because they get stock and they're Isis breakable in a lot of piggybacking. Yeah I mean they do a helling incompetent. We're going on a long trip drag a bunch of shit unloaded drag the sledge back. Put much more shit on it. Drag it up to their unloaded. Go Back Sleep move another mile go back at the Shit and move Bruce Rural doubling back man and so after the a second so really had made a determination that if by the second summer the resupply did not come. There was a contingency plan. Dan In place that was written in Army military orders that they would retreat to this place. A couple of hundred miles south called Cape Sabine on the Ellesmere island side and though the ships that were to have re supplied them if they couldn't make it there were bound by written order to drop off supplies there so that if really and his men could arrive there and survive. So there's a lot of controversy over decision to leave the Fort Conger longhouse because they had they had another year supply of food and they had shelter and there was game but really was a deeply devoted military man and an order was an order. And you know he was gonNA leave. He sets that date. I think it's August eighth. Eighth Anthony Eighteen eighty three. And it says we're going right so they they hammer for Congress shut dump a bunch of the You know food and for the dogs leave all the ship for the dogs. Oh that's kind of sad to leave all the damn dogs and they take bake off in boats down a lead in one of the dogs swims out after the key he'll turn around he'll turn around and there's a there's a haunting line eventually. His head goes underwater. Like a seal right and Schneider. The news has been taking care of the dogs. Just like is staring at this dog dog and then he just turns away and he's he's gone but so that the the the decision to retreat. I had nothing in there now that you spend a lot of detailed time on is the blunders in mishaps that plague the resupply shifts like one of the resupply ships. Just simply get stuck in the ice and the boquets crushed Brennan and they're in sync and then knows guys. Have this like harrowing. I like riding on ice. floes and his Harrowing Journey and somehow they don't all wind up dead right on the Neptune like the first shift is supposed to come get him. What's kind of fun in the in? The writing of the story is that so I. I was able to cut back and forth between what's happening with Greeley and as they begin to retreat and just even before while they're out watching to see if the ships gonNA come. I'm I cut to what the ships are actually doing which is getting stuck in the ice on the way up and so there are all sorts of blenders where people don't do what they were supposed to leave. Don't leave the food and then you know the ship gets crushed changed and so like you say then these guys are all slight clamoring around the ice and they have to get like you know rescued by. There's a lot of whaling ships in the area at that time. And so oh you know they get rescued and one of them just turns around and bags it and goes back because he can't make it through the ice and then rowdiest ends up with. That's that's like a huge huge debacle. Where you've got two emergencies going on simultaneously greely and his men are fighting for their lives trying to get Cape Sabine and the men on the proteas are the prettiest gets crushed in the ice and sinks right before there is? Is there standing there on the ice watching it. Goad watching masks just plummet with all with all the freaking food. It's so brutal and then you know you're like okay. Well so what's GonNa Happen to them and then then these guys on the proteas are in a race for survival themselves. You know. They're in little whale boats that are or boats and they're try to try to figure out how to get out of there while Greeley's moving down through these heinous like you mentioned leads the like the pathways Of water through giant icebergs in huge ice flows. And he's on you know they've got a twenty eight foot steamship steam him launch. It's called the Lady Greeley and you know it's like a ten thousand pound vessel and then they've got like a small flotilla of or boats I and so all their crap is in these boats and they're they're like tethered together at first and they're trying to make it south through job. I have you ever been into the up in the Arctic. No not whether you're talking about I mean I was in Greenland and did some Kayak and around in and it's I mean it's terrifying all right. We're in Greenland and this. I got into the boat and the guy is going to go shoot seals and I said I noticed no life jackets. Act on the boat and I'm like we're about to go through these massive icebergs and it's out there hauntingly beautiful and they look like like dinosaur stegosaurus back and I'm like. Hey why aren't there in this greenlandic. Seal Hundred Guy. Why aren't there any Life Jackets on the boat and he goes if we fall in. We don't want it to take take that long to die. I'm like I get it. Man I mean his your unless you had a dry suit. Your it's going to be. Maybe you're you're gone right so anyway. I had a guy that I had a guy in the coastguard in Southeast Alaska. Talk about just how sick he got of the accidents. Oh my God he's like you know what then I had a couple their boat sinks they make it to shore we find him dead on the beach. Froze to you bet. Headquartered in Oregon City Oregon Bench made knife company has been family family owned and operated since its inception in nineteen eighty seven. The company puts a strong emphasis on family values and tradition encompassing the people in products. They create bench. Bay Takes Pride in the fact that they build knives that can be passed down from generation to generation with some routine care and maintenance and check this out. This bench made the highly skilled technicians on their life. 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Once they really and his men set out in these craft move south things get really really really gnarly because first of all they're not nautical men their army men. They weren't meant to do this they weren't supposed to. It wasn't really in the plan. I mean they they. I guess they thought they could go overland potentially but that's not viable so they're moving through these leads and they're constantly having to take all their crap like as as icebergs and these things called flows there's all their flatter like big big rafts of ice. Some of them are miles long. They they spend one day looking at at a iceberg by or a flow in. It's like fifteen miles long. Nine hours to pass them crypto Paleolithic Olympic. I mean there's all sorts of you you get into the all sorts of names for the icebergs. I have a footnote on their sixty feet high. Yeah and then there's much more below an old old ICE Aycell. The border get pinched between two pieces of ice pops that bolt like a pimple shoots it out on the ice and everybody camps camps on the ice for days and a new crack forms shoved their boat back into the crack. It's so brutal. And so they're constantly like going on and off these icebergs and trying to avoid being crushed to death by them and You know one point. One of the most harrowing harrowing parts of the story is when they get a certain point right. They are on iceberg and it gets Cleaved in half by another iceberg. That's coming from the north and it hammers them and then they're they're on this Burg for like weeks weeks and they're just floating along just helplessly in the middle of this body of water being buffeted offense and hammered. And they're like they're exposing they they can sleep some some of them they have it big teepee and they also have tarps that go over the boast that their yard up onto the iceberg day. But the the exhaustion when you think about if lack of taking all this equipment and getting it up onto an iceberg. Maybe tethering the Lady Greeley to the side with these ice anchors and then hours later you're getting hammered and you have to. You're GONNA get crushed so you have to put all that that crab back in the water. And meanwhile you're looking at your food stores in Greeley was very you know he had men that were their job was to know exactly. How many promises zero? Yeah actually weighing it out with a scale right. And you're he's gone. We have you know forty days rations left and by about October fifteenth. It's going to be dark for the next four months. And they had all these like they had all these assumptions about all these points and markers where like. Oh my God. Oh they'll I'll have left ten thousand rations and then you get there and there's like forty rations all be done the next spot and they get down on the next but there's some lemon lemon. Yeah I mean. There's so many heartbreaking moments where you think okay. They're going to they're going to pull pull this off right. They by some miracle they like end up landing not that far from Cape Sabine ultimately or or they're able to get there you know and and then like you say then they go to a CAIRN and it says oh by the way all those rations that you're supposed to leave Well our ship song and we didn't leave them other like peace. What like and then? He's always very just like what's the next thing that you have to do due to keep this all together you know and so there's also what I love about story is it. They're like there's mutiny that goes on you know there's theft of food like once they once they make it to Cape being. They've got like certain amount of food and they're trying to parse this out like okay. If we can survive the winter it's GonNa L. Assis maybe till March you know and then they got there like dispatched two guys to be out hunting seals every day. You got yens and Eskimo Fred Out. In the Kayak China acute some sales bears and there's all sorts of Chore Birds In a Certain Point. I mean they received sticking Walrus but lose them. Oh my God. It's so brutal. Because a Walrus could would serve would be their salvation. You know but they shoot the Walrus and then it like slithers off of the iceberg and they will be like this blood slick and then just trying to You know that you didn't spend a lot of time on that really struck me is at one of the points on the way down. They land at a place. They DUB ESKIMO point 'cause full artifacts right and a whale carcass. Yeah pieces of equipment made from ivory in structures offers. And here's these twenty five military trained individuals with firearms and modern equipment and and they're like quote stock and dying and starving to death in a place where for three or four thousand years. You had these marine green based Mammal hunters right who were thriving and raising babies right and then we'll and so with talking any of the things great without the weather equipment in the guns and the manmade materials in yeah and they were just like like how like the dichotomy of of the skill sets right. Yes you can see that the like raising children and and right across the way like still you know entire villages Yeah I mean I think Greeley these guys were certainly not as well suited to the environment as the people had been there waiting expectations. Yeah and you know bringing your food with you versus having to to gather there were procure it yourself. And I think given that the circumstances greely and his men were managed very very well. They were quite industrious. You know They built these. Some of. That's right you know. And they they were shooting lots of birds and so you know but at at a certain point a lot of Arctic Fox Arctic Fox in the eight and the only tell the story about the bear. Because that's a great story. I want you to read the story about the bear but the You know at a certain point. They're culinary situation is down to a gelatinous gruel of shrimp and like the snipped off top of Buffalo Hyde. Sleeping bag in the soles of your boots you know seriously eating. There's some images in there that are just they haunt me. You know like crawling around your hands and knees plucking caterpillars outta pillars off the ground and just plucking in your mouth and also you know eating eating lichens and Saxony a fragile and all the plants. They're just like putting it. In their mouths it so sort of ghoulish. Do you feel that it gives too much away to talk about. I don't want to call it. Rescues a little dramatic addict to talk about not for the film version. No now for the hand for the world. It says this in the back of a book I know I was seven when people live. Yeah Yeah so well and I watch how are you comfortable talking about the weather not great. There's a great line. Mine was a great line from in the heart of the sea. I love that book Nathaniel Philbrick Resonate. Where later when people realize it? After the whale ship ship aspects tragedy tragedy there had been some cannibalism in someone's asked like hey. Did you know Fred Jones. He was on Essex and he says no I am. Yeah so really WANNA own up to cannibalism awesome. Yeah I mean so in the end Tom I I really want to talk about this. I mean this shows meter right meat's meat. Yeah I've eaten vote. Yeah I have right now. I have a cadaver. Oh have cadavers bone crammed up in my tooth. A whole lot of that comes loose. I've eaten focus and taken to bits. How is it? I don't mind that that doesn't count the same. Like your friend is Rosen over there. No but Yanni's he's drank human breast milk it. He's eaten meat because he's center. Oh Oh you did it. You did that kind of I want to say accounting either. Really what does it take like thrown on the barbecue to make it. County shows heater awe. Well yeah no you can we. We had the placenta shipped off and it was dehydrated and came back and pills. Do you feel good strong like bull. We'll just like just like I take my vitamins every day. I like to Canada anyways. Yeah so you know there's okay there's no question. Get into the exumed bodies later butchered right. So here's the thing you why don't you. You're not being the lay it out. Let the Jimmy out. People are going to not buy your book because they heard about the end. No No. It's the journey Bernie listen. Everybody knows that that there's cannabis party. Let's check this out. Hey Phil are you. Were you like Oh dude. I'm going to buy this book but then you're like oh the everybody in the end. I never know honestly as I've been listening to this conversation I've been thinking about going to Korean our producer and seeing if she he has a copy that I can read he's not going to buy he's GonNa go look for a free copy of the library. Spread the word. Yeah so what device body Levy fills GONNA go. See if he can't get himself a free one. It's so funny thing connected to that in in the research so I have first reader. He's the guy. I dedicated the book to my friend. John Larkin and so I got the sources in the original version now so I know how all my sourcing is going one of the major books about it. It's it's title is six came back in Johns reading along like chapter the three and like I wonder how this is going to work now. It's back it's like it's point man. Yeah so no. I'm not worried what's interesting about it. Old yeller was called in. They shoot his dog poor old yeller. It'd be different or Oh you don't want to do We always ask this. I can remember the. What's it called? When you put a quote in the beginning? A book the epigraph. Yes right by gram dramatic trying to find one here. It is tight. It's tight by many paths in by many means. Mankind has endeavoured to penetrate eight this kingdom of Death Free Travel Johnson. That guy by the way nonsense he. He broke Greeley's farthest this north record thirteen years later they held it for only short time. You back to the legalism eating folks and get how eventually some of them lived. Well Reginald. It doesn't matter. Yeah I mean it so these guys are in a dire situation and they begin the begin to die of starvation right and so what ends up happening one of the most macabre elements have it is so they're so many diverse guys and they have to get together and muster the strength to carry them up on this place. They dubbed Cemetery Hill. Creativity is SCR cemetery. Oh you got another option. And so they they put they started burying these guys and at first they have the strength to dig up assertive. Fifteen inch deep grey With even still there kinda covered with snow. Flake is screen. It's like hard ass frozen scree slope right and so they they they begin to. They Begin to starve. And you know there's all sorts of attempts to go get to these Herculean attempts to go get more of the English cache of food that's like somewhere out there. That's been left by another expedition years before but anyway so as they begin to die they they're like it gets harder and harder to bury them and at a certain point people. Are you know. Sort of just being left up on cemetery Terry Hill but like or frozen they throw some of them down in this thing. They called the title track so there near the shore. And you know what you don't you you don't hear about the cannibalism until the the rescue So there's this is a rather amazing Effort by the Navy to go get them. And it's all spirited by Greeley's wife Henrietta and so they they finally arrived there and these guys are into it. Well this is the third year. So they've been on they've been at Cape Sabine for like eight but there's no communication no but you know what they find. Bizarre they find like the boat that goes up one of the boats. That goes up the spoils to do the rescue. Everything goes bad but they want here near they leave some stuff and these guys find lionsgate lemons that are left in a cash in that turns out the lemons are wrapped in newspaper and they start taking these scrap. Grab a newspaper and read in the reading about themselves right. And they're reading about that. The president was shot and died that like. They're starting to get like little torn. So bizarre horned bits of what's going on one of 'em learns that in his absence he's been promoted right. The Tenant Lockwood and he so that they come back from these caches right and they. I love that scene. Where they're like? They'll hold them up by candlelight and so the lemons which are you know. They've been sent along to tale work scurvy so the lemons are wrapped in all this paper and so they're they're reading And once once Lockwood learns that he's been promoted. I love that because he then he then he You know one of his first missions is to go and by this time these guys are freaking scrawny and dying you know and so the he wants to go put the pendulum build this CAIRN. There's a spot on the coastline. That Greeley says even if we perish. I don't one our records to payroll that sad part. Yeah until the Lockwood his first Act As of First Lieutenant is to go place this CAIRN and this pendulum that they've brought along Up on this promontory. So that if the boats get there they'll see it because they're kind have tucked away in this little cove and has a lot of their records in there and they're not the negatives would you call them. Yeah he had to play at the foot of plates. Yeah he sticks and Eric if we all die there's a better better chance they'll find it down there and in the CAIRN and that pendulum end up figuring in in In the rescue. So here's here's the deal. These guys are doing everything they can. They're eating pounds and pounds of shrimp and GRUBS. And all this crap right so you got guys that are frozen and next to you down. I would have done the same thing. That's what that's my question. So like I mean would you eat. Do you think you'd eat absolute when you eat another person. Of course I before I died. Yeah yeah fill in Zile died to fill I would I would have. I would have my dying fine words. Be Phil Eat Mike Flesh. Don't feel bad right and so what's kind of mine to sort of you know. So there's this French guy octave pavee right that One of the things that sort of freaky about when they when they find so you got these guys that are flying on the ground and sometimes pretty close to the hot there in. Because they're they're too exhausted easy to carry them very far by this time. And you know they're preserved in there. They're kind of frozen. I mean they're like they're in the freezer cold storage right. So when the when the rescue comes they they're very deliberate about taking each body and labeling it and drawing diagrams I bet who was where and then once they get them on the ships because there's a military operation they begin to undress them. And they're gonNA Kinda put them in preserving deserving baths right fluid. Yeah so like Yeah they have these holds on the ship where they can put these bodies and preserve them and that's when they discovered bat. A number of the bodies have missing little meet like in some of it is surgically sliced. It looks like it was done by a surgeon. Good and so. That suggests that that maybe likely was one of the perpetrators because the cuts are precise yes And he's the only surgeon on the expedition right and so then there's others that. Are you know slightly dismembered and you know chunks gone right so what ends up happening is that they have to. You Know Greeley and the others make a pact that they they will you know Greeley and so of his men. The remaining six one Guy Allison dies on the he's the guy with the stumps in the. He's he's lost both of his legs and most of his hands from frostbite and so he lives in makes it onto the rescue ships but he dies and route so of the six they make a pact that they'll they'll never tell who ate whom Right and and you know it's one of those codes of honor. They just like Greeley says if if cannibalism occurred. I know nothing of it right. Yeah that's a cop how you know. I think he's protecting memory of his man. He's protecting the families. I would do that like if we ate filled. Just picture. Yeah we would be like. Let's not telling me when we eight Phil or would you go back and be like we feel. They're probably wouldn't tell anybody who we it's like because because you weren't around when you went around the kids don't WanNa know that he got eating. WHO's the Guy Albert Packer attacker right? The Guy who bludgeoned the main and I've been to one of the case packer supposedly hit Out In yeah in Wyoming slept in there. I'm not joking. Did it freak you out a little bit a little bit you know so. I think the question is why. Why are we we still F- What is it about? Cannibalism that still carries this Taboo stigma are you asking me Iowa wh- imposing it as a as a question. I'm asking myself because I asked myself a number of times. Like what would I do in this situation that these guys or whatever it is That thing that makes us not one eight each other. Yeah like the TAT. Like the incest taboo to cannibalism taboo. I mean these are like things that had to have occurred in Ben. Pretty forceful at a very early only time in human development right. If you viz generally see like why like how these things would come about. I mean we tend to do better not eating each other. It creates a kind of anarchy. Right yeah so but you know we're we're now to know that like okay if we're out they're together. If if one of US dies right you know it's cool like go ahead. I'm already dead. I don't need it but you know this is we have to do placed first place A little bit of our selves in time where period. We're which was not okay so I understand my picture like this. So you're in a horrible situation today and you need somebody each body. You get rescued. You come home. And you're laying in bed with your wife tonight right right in your wife is like oh I love him so glad he's home but like in the back of her head is like he a his is buddy. Yeah it's GonNa Color it's GonNa color like they might accept it and get it and all that it's going to color the way they review you forever right. I mean you're you're done you're done for this people are GonNa treat you different right. And so that's one of the things that I I was. I like I hedged a little bit. You know part of me when they're like well let's put this book. Cannibalism on the cover. And I'm like no what okay. That's a great idea for marketing. But it's is truly tragic and cannibalistic. Greely polar expedition laverick device. Yes sounds good but I mean look we all remember the Donner Party not That's what I can tell you about the Donner Party. Those guys there somewhere renovate each other all the other stuff that's sort of heroic trek about what they were how they were able to. Yeah so callers the next petitioning but I try not to You know I try to handle the cannibalism in a way. Hey that doesn't make it. I don't know I guess I usually respectfully yeah it's important to treat. Cannibalism with some respect. Only only bring it up just because it comes up now and then. It's the thing that we use on curious about so I'm not trying to over. I'm not trying to Overdo it. No I get it for the salacious. Isa's detail or the you know I mean I asked You about sex frontier it's about cannibalism rate. Both happen frequently turns out talk about it. Yeah man are we doing. We got it. We've been going for three minutes now. A how long we been going for. Yeah perfect I have a question though before we go. No you closing on the minute books. Okay go so if you are interested in learning about Like the best way to take on American history in my mind is not to go to history done nothing. She skipped history class history class. You're like okay. Boys girls is happening that having a having and here we are take a better approach is to take the chunks to take chunks and take a look at the chunks yeah and And you have a host of books but I picked the I gravitated toward these. Yeah I appreciate it and they're really telling chunks about where we're at like where we were at as a people In a very interesting century entry amazing place an amazing time. Yeah Yeah like they did Crockett right. And what it tells you about American politics and what it tells is you. Bout of American violence right and then And then I call it Crockett. The book is American legend the titles American legend the Real Life Adventures of Davy Crockett and then labyrinth device the subtitle being triumphant and tragic greely polar expedition Asian. Just kind of like sort of. It's like these like harrowing adventurous snapshots of sort of like where we were as a people. What our priorities were some of the people that we put forth? Yeah I love that and you know behind both of them I think is this idea of adventure and of of the unknown right because in the case of Crockett it wasn't really known own completely. What lay beyond the frontier? And in the case of you know Greeley and his men. They're going to places. No other human human had ever been in fact when they build Fort Conger it. They're the highest living humans on Earth. Yeah they were going farther north than then then the digits hunters went well right because they're like okay. There's no game out there you know. Why would I go there? You might reconsider right So yeah I really like that. The notion of of how history can you know. There's a narrative there so there's always just incredible stories stories and it also is is sort of a snapshot into what people were thinking the way. They've behaved what they were willing to do. On how how much they could take brutally tough toughest people I mean Yeah just the idea that you can Survive some of these. These things to me makes makes going out. You know hunting and I. I'm always thinking about it when I'm out like wow. This is hard but not that hard you know so I really appreciate talking to you about both these books and I'm excited to You know to to me. Really December third labyrinth of is comes out. Yeah you probably go in order right now right now hold your order and send you the book. Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah. It's it's available available now I did. This is funny My son okay. He's twenty five years old and he and his friends they are they. Are you know they're grown men and they've been arguing. Apparently Hunter my my son in Kyle and this kid Evan Hunter I named him. Hunter has risky move new hunter Backwards uh-huh hardcore hunters name hundred right but he may still be time guarantee but it's funny because they've been arguing this is in. These are relatively really intelligent men and they've been arguing about. This question of your son is relative to highly intelligent child but this is this just makes me wonder because I have my own position on it. So the the argument is whether a man and I don't know who wanted to ask the question I want to ask you. There's a if there's a growing can a grown man and whoever that man is a wolf with his bare hands and my brother Matt would tell you. Yes tell you how to do it. So that was my question is what man would this is be and how would he do it. My brother has two ways that he speculates. He would do it one. Sometimes he talks about the he would Crushes throughout the favorite way that he talks about as you get a good grip on its lower jaw. Oh Yeah and you get a good grip on its upper jaw. Aw and you just hold it and tired out. The old mandibular disaster close its mouth and he's like he would hold it hold hold it hold it hold hold until so tucker it out right and then he crushes it throat. Now I have to say there's some validity to that because I have I mean I'm McMahon right and I have grabbed I learned while ago. They've you grab a dog's lower jaw. Just pulled it with your you know it's hard can they. They're they can't bite from. I'm above now so the question is how do you get a hold of the of the wolves lower mandible can break up Dr. I think I guess dogs hate is when you put your finger in there but people say you got your dog. They're locked two dogs. That are fighting. And you're locked in a death grip if if you put your finger in there but they quit fighting you have people you have not field tested this right. No but I bet he is true of a lot of things. So you're going to say that your brother has a do you have. Do you think this over. And he gets the drinking and talk we get to talk about what would you do. He's what I would do but yeah I mean. I think it's absurd but your kid wants to know. Well he wants to know what you think about whether a guy could kill a wolf with Marian. Yeah sure like you're almost two hundred pounds. Johnny see owner pounds. So let's say a huge wolf release talk about the ones that are over. A hundred pounds is law. That aren't yeah so there's a Wolf Wolf thirty pounds and Yanni and him getting skirmish is it possible. I saw video recently where a kangaroo has a dog in a headlock right so ponder that. Yeah this dogs helpless just totally messes up. Yeah so could Yanni big strapping Apple Lampien our the wolf and win. If he came back and told me he killed the wolf. I would be like Oh. That's cool you did it with one on one. Yeah Mono we'd Mono Mono you Powell Peril Lupo if I had to deal with the pack Mata it'd be Mono Lobo right that's draws limits is a mess whether he I don't know large way that he might run run into trouble with a large pack. What young I want to go back to Crockett real quick out? Tell me can you tell me a concise way. Exactly how I know. You guys talked about him being famous for being famous. But how did the initial famous come about right because he would be like Part alligator and my momma was a bear. My Daddy Eddie was a him just talking. Yeah so he was making up stories about himself. And then you know get written up and papers and then there is this Who ended up going and this? This guy is fantastic. Like he's this guy's awesome so let's just make character about Initially like Nimrod wildfire. We'll make a character that everyone knows where crocodile hunter bears lives out Tennessee. And then that play. Hey like tours around the cities you know. It's like in Washington D. It's like Broadway and you've got this character. This flamboyant frontiers men character. WHO's like talking like like the country Bumpkin and then Everyone knows it's based on weight and wildcats and jump this specific syfy one big jump in people Crockett and be like. Oh you're the guy who can leave Kinda if I have a boat. Yeah I mean yeah so. He had He he was very shrewd about benefiting from like once the once people thought. Oh Wow this guy is. It's amazing like he's all these things. He never liked discouraged them. From believing it. Share it just snowballed at that point sort of wondering the beginning like imagine imagine okay you know how. Oh in the beginning. Yeah I mean it was a slow. It was kind of slow build right so he when he started running for Congress than he he really latched onto that persona of the excellent marksman and the hunter and the you know this guy who could win a cow in a shooting competition Asian. Right so he he just he just rolled with it and he was more interesting than a lot of his counterparts right. He actually legit stuff. Yeah I mean he was like out Out Their Limited. So let's say you thwarted a bear attack by hitting the baron to face tracking poll. Let's say down the road. I'll tell you I was just down. The road It winds up being that you've done this a handful of times and maybe even killed one with a tracking poll and collect bears that tracking poll. And I can't say they drew uh-huh right it also pretty soon. You're just like that crazy. Yanni that guy and his you. You're like God. I'll tell you story just pretty soon. You'd Kinda create like a sherm a larger than life and it was like in the end you. You did hit a bear in the tracking poll. That's pretty awesome that you did that. Don't mess like powering on his aunt Joan is that Oh yeah that'll come at you. Lining blinding clash silver right. But I think that's a that's an excellent explanation of how it works. You know it builds from the lower and you know you like you're not going to like right now. Are you going to argue the fact that you if somebody said. Yeah like The bar the Bad Mojo took down a bear. You know the Amish. Nothing has been looking at while. We've been talking comeback. This the spots where Greeley went fort conger and the map around that area man looks like a bad place talk about a good spent a couple of years. Well Yeah especially when you know when the Congress is farthest north. They made it. I know no they so from Fort conger. They made it to like eighty two degrees twenty four Ronan little spike camps. Yeah I mean that's when they they would go off in the sledge's right so they. They made expeditionary tricks out which were really dangerous because there was always the the danger of breaking through the ice part of the reason that Greenlandic dudes were so useful is that they could. They could read the ice. They would know you know how thin it was that they were they spend their lives there whereas the army guys were learning on the fly in these greenland guys would say like. Don't go don't go there. Yeah there's a point. We're looking at a chunk of ice one or they get across it and they see how walruses or Boston or heads up through man and he's like a war as NBA's head up through it. You can't go. Yeah Yeah then then then they have to retreat but yes they they went considerably farther north than Fort Conger You know I think it was thirty days out on the sledge to get to the farthest north and then thirty days back just unbelievable ladies and gentlemen go. Hunting got starving got ice crossing faulk shooting people eating laverick ever device. Thank you man. You Hope Phil. I'm excited to pay money for the book on December. Tell everyone everyone works here. I don't know how many copies this around the office bungling account for all of them and I'm not letting go near two sons bitches filled by his own right. Now feel badly in my car right now we go. Let's close the deal. It's actually I'm just putting your car. Let me see some of that little order. Show us that little order complete. Yeah sure you know you're somerset you're saying it's December. It's actually the whole renewed on an Amazon top ten pick for the month of December. ooh Very psyched about that. So when you're sitting there all cold you think you're cold check really WANNA be called the falls off and you don't know it it'll tell me about believe that you have to tell the guy they have the heart to tell him like your foot just fell. We're looking great. Does that point. You can't really be there mentally. Oh Oh foot just fell off and you didn't know it Ellison's how bad it was things now firing this say about guys they have this like masochistic kissed tendency to sit around and even right down like even write down if I could have anything to eat. Here's what it'd be and that's an interesting list because the stuff they eat is like what you neither like Pepperoni pizza right right. He's doing like these guys are like potato day fog and some of them they think of the lentil soup elaborate meal they've ever had like in your and by the way. Have you ever been like. Of course you have but like Super Freak and Hungary and you do start having these elaborate food fantasy date and you sit there and go and it's Iran is totally masochistic because we can't have any of it. They're eating freaking seal blubber. You know where my mind goes. Those were those when you go into a gas station and a glass display case. Full all that Brown food fry sometimes think about if I could just get into one one of those glass cases or if our diets different. I'm thinking about a salad. It's either like a great sal. I WanNa like boss the glass case out with Iraq doc and all that Deep Fried Britos and whatever they got there Eileen Corn Dogs. I'm all about a beef. No Corn dogs and pizza and like Freddie Mac and cheese. Oh yeah if you could fry it away to fry up some egging cheese. That's what I think about. Yanni gets thinking about that. Breast milk some launch down boy. It's been great. You have to come back. I appreciate it man. There's there's a couple of stories that I haven't even told you know you wrote six books. Only talked about two of them were these. Don't even have anything to do with books. Their other stuff I did but you know okay back. We're GONNA like once. We got a guy I wanted him on again and I just asked him. How long would need to go by before we to ask him if he wanted to come back what what? He say year because he wanted to finish a book. He's working on. Yeah well so I got you get that Dallas Man Claude. Dell's book ramped up. Yeah I actually am in the throes of trying to figure out the next move to what man I mean. Cloud's been covered though any long about well. We'll have you covered. Well no yeah. Everything's been all the low hanging fruits and blocked man. Yeah that's always the question but you know I'm trying to enjoy this one like you know as you know reading books is really kind of hard and it solitary and your worst thing in the world seating there there and then so I got a book coming out in December. And everybody's like so. What's the next one you know? I'm like yeah. Can we come with writing. Books is horrible. Levy laverick device triumphant and tragic. And if you're so inclined cannibalistic. Greely polar expedition and also we discussed at length American legend the real life adventures of Davy. Crockett I'm assuming all your books are available. Wherever books are sold you bet you and I and then to really piss off all the booksellers? I'm assuming you can get him on Amazon. I think so. Okay thank you very much. Thanks a lot uh.