SMNTY's Female Firsts Playlist, Episode 4: Norma Merrick Sklarek
Here's the thing. Saving money with Geico is almost better than playing pickup basketball. Because there's always that guy who joins your game. He never passes the rock. He constantly bricks threes, and who completely hack you and then put his hands up and say no foul, no foul with GEICO. It's easy to switch and save on car insurance, no need to fake an ankle sprain because you're absolutely exhausted so switching, save with Gyco. It's almost better than sports. My. Name is Nicky Santos of dominion a morning show and on the move I want to personally invite you to my new podcast. My name is Ado. Show where I'll talk to artists, community leaders and people like you together. We'll learn more about the triumphs and failures that empower my weekly guest. You could my new show on the free iheartradio. APP or wherever you listen to your podcast. This zanny Anthony Mantha. Theft ever told you production of iheartradio's house effort? Do. You know what today is. What is today I don't wait what, but it's time for another female I. Was Really Anticlimactic Of course, it is a big day. That is the biggest day Vermont. True is true. However, I thought there was something else added. Maybe there's going to be. Well. You know what next time! Champagne, we'll do it, yes. It's. A huge. Yes, we're going to build it up every time, but that means that we are joined once again by our friend and CO worker Eve's. Hello Hi. Doing is good, but I have a request. If there is cake next time, can it be cheesecake because a lot, a huge fan of other kinds of Katie so if we can do if I can be that person and request? Comes No. That's perfect. I'm the same way and so my birthday is this month just? Up, and since I was fourteen years old, because I did not like regular cake, my birthday cakes always been cheesecake so every year. A couple of years couldn't go home. My mom would make me a fancy homemade cheesecake. Oh my birthday, so I like that, yes. Yes, we will do cheesecake. Are you in on the cheesecake game to any? I am, but I actually have a very funny story about cheesecake because I once when I was in middle school I bought an entire cheesecake from Kroger and. Chocolate flavored every slice that little special. Try Me and my friend eight, the entire thing while we were watching the stargate movie with Kurt Russell James Spader, and we got very sick. And so I haven't associated. I just have to get past it like every time I have the I. It's good, but you know there's like. Nervousness and That's not good, but you are the winner you get to make the request. Okay will be a cheesecake. I made. The toppings are playing cheesecake pretty fit cheesecake. I will say ooh. Or a strawberry? I don't really get much more interesting. So the reason I fell in love with cheesecake because I. Watch my mom make it and I helped her make. It is like these mini chocolate chips with the chocolate crust. All time favorite. Don't like anything over that like do some strawberries and all of that, but I don't Wanna be all facie with keep live. My teeth fall. Matiara A- An orphan thing no. Well, you walk up, thank you. Decide I used to be where my parents in college. It'd be like me. Does at the cheesecake factory and I'd be like. Okay. Fancy. Fancy. Book I just. Overwhelms me much. We're on the same page. But today we are not talking about just cheesecake. Fine. We'll return to that topic. Did you bring us as female I of the day as Well today's female. I is Norma Merrick S- Clark, and she has a lot of I to her name like a lot of them, but one of the biggest ones is that she was well. She was one of the first black female licensed architects in the US wasn't the first one. A lot of places list her as the first, but she probably wasn't the first. in the US, but she was the first black woman to be licensed as an architect in New York and in California and she was the first black woman to be a member of the American Institute of Architects, and she was the first black woman to be appointed a fellow of the American Institute of Architects. So. This one is I. Guess a little bit different than previous I just because she died in two thousand twelve, so that wasn't that long ago. I think the people we covered in the past kind of like stuck to. I think it's important to show that like this was a first. That happened not too long ago and this is still field. That is very. The number of black women. People in general let alone black women in the field of licensed architects in the United States is very small in disproportionate. And something that's growing, but like it's still. It's still a small number of black women in the field and. Yeah so we're GonNa talk about normal today. Which is she was? You know a pioneer in the field and her story is pretty interesting. Yeah I. It is pretty telling that It's such a recent I and normally when we do these I I. Get a bunch of bullet points then I'm like okay. Here's the things that they've done. And this one is three page, yes? She did a lot. Yeah Yeah, so I guess let's get started. Let's get into it. Already. Ready. So normal was born on April Fifteenth, Nineteen Twenty eight in Harlem, and her father's name was Walter Merrick he was a doctor, and her mother was Amy Merrick and she was a seamstress, and they were both immigrants there from Trinidad, and she was their only child, and so she was raised during the Great Depression. Moved from Crown Heights in Brooklyn when she was a child or excuse me, her family moves to Crown Heights in Brooklyn when she was a child, and her father got a medical degree from Howard University. so when she was a child, she was already exhibiting. Signs that would lead toward architecture I don't know about y'all, but like architecture's very interesting I could never I could never do. Like but I think it's amazing. and just something that's. Grown like. Become so innovative so quickly but just like it has so many different elements of things. The are there's the math? Yeah, they're the visuals in. You know to so many the physics of it like so many different things that go into it, and so as a child. She exhibited signs of being good and all these different areas, so she had this art things he sketched, she painted, and she drew anti carpentry work. She worked on furniture. Yeah. She was really a cool Gal. She was young and she went to public girls. School called Hunter College High School. She was a high school student to some of those same fields. She said that her grades were pretty good and pretty much everything. I love it, I know. She was really good at art sciences and math, which is still pretty much everything. All of it. Good Yeah in general. But it was her father who suggested to her that maybe you should do architecture, and obviously there are now. There aren't many black people who were in the profession, but that didn't keep her from pursuing it. So. She wanted to go to Howard like her father did, but her father didn't want her to her. Parents wanted her to stay closer to home and so to prepare for Columbia University's architecture program. She took liberal arts courses at Barnard College. And Barnard College was associated with Columbia University, but it was for women Mike was for women as Columbia didn't accept women students, so she went through that those courses, and then she got into the Columbia University School of architecture, so t remarked on how her first year there was super hard, but that didn't keep her from coming back after the summer, she came back in the fall. Like many of her classmates were war. Veterans somehow bachelors or Masters degrees so basically they have people around them, and they already had all experienced able to help them through the process of getting through these. Amazingly I can't even imagine how difficult courses they were those people what kind of work on assignments together, but she had this situation where she was commuting to school, in sometimes had to finish her work on her commutes or at home alone, and so that kind of having. We know like having how having that support system is important when you're going through school. Right, Oh, yeah. She got her bachelor of architecture degree in nineteen fifty, as she was one of two women in her class in the only black win after that she applied to nineteen architectural firms, she said in interviews like I won't forget that number nineteen while but was turned down every one of them. Yeah and she got hers on She got the Twentieth This is a coat that she said she said I don't know. If the rejections were because I was a black person, because I was a young woman, or because of the economic recession at the time, but she said that those places weren't hiring. Women are black people so I think we can kind of go like. What the issue was here Yeah. So she her twentieth, that was when she went to work in the city of new. York's Department of Public, works, as what she says, it's a junior person. And, she didn't like that job because she couldn't really be creative in. It so she wasn't there long. She took the New York State Architects Licensing Exam and she passed it on the first time which everybody doesn't do, even though it was a really tough days long test and she became a licensed architect in nineteen, fifty four, and that was when. I first comes along. She, became New York State's first black woman licensed architect. So she was hired by a private architecture firm at that point after she quit her job with the city. Even though her supervisor gave her a bad rep, friends and relationship with that supervisor with her boss wasn't. There wasn't anything wrong with it, so he but he said that she was lazy. She got to work late a lot that she didn't anything about design and architecture Nazi socialized, so he had a lot of really negative things to say about her, even though she never had any issues. and. She thought it had to do with the fact that. Her boss wasn't a licensed architect and was older, and she was a younger black in licensed architect. so. A. Job. She was a threat yeah! I'm sure like old dude is like pain. I've done nothing. We feel this way similarly, but we don't lash out. Recommendation saying. Felt threatened. So, even though she got out of her old job, because she felt like she was wasting her potential, she was still doing small tasks like designing bathroom layout, so she's still kind of felt away about that. She spent a year at that small firm, and in nineteen fifty five. She joined the office of Skidmore owings and Merrill. She ended up working there until nineteen sixty, so that was a pretty big firm. And at that major firm, she was working on large scale projects and Evening Architecture courses at New York City Community College and so around this time she was a single mother of two children. She had already been married in been divorced, and her mother took care of her children while she worked, so she did have a support. System is not like nobody was there while she was doing all this stuff. And in nineteen fifty, nine. I by to be a member of the American Institute of Architects. loon wow. In, one thousand nine hundred sixty. That's when she moves to California and there. She took a job at Gruen and associates in Los Angeles. And just a side note about Gruen Victor Gruen was is the person who is credited with being a pioneer in American shopping mall. He did a lot of work in that area. I think I talked about him recently. Because, we were talking about food courts. Point me I don't know. Your Lord. Yes, shopping malls are. I feel. I don't know how sad I am about them leaving, but I I do remember the glory days of going into the Disney stores. Oh, yeah, and into. Double layers, and then you see store, Tom. Tom. Trying to outweigh ago. Cookie in between always feeling like you're close to like falling over the edge because they always had those on the top level, the glass and I would always be scared like. Oh, my gosh, there's. Not Perfume every. Funny things years. No one else would say as. You can look down. Smell perfume everywhere. Kin, small, town Walmart with three. Giant Mall. A yeah I went out well. You've been to China. I'm not sure if you have. But they had a million shopping. I don't yeah, they have so many mall. It is ridiculous. And they're huge there. There's a basement and then there's a basement under the basement. Organiz. Organiz. You're probably isn't something. That they would name what the categories of things are on each floor. When you got to that floor. Yeah, I was like. Wow, this is only makes sense. Very organized like anyway. GO-TO malls in China. You'll be there for the next ninety years. So when she was at grew in, she recognized how much scrutiny she was getting from her boss there, she didn't have a car and she got rise with one of her colleagues, who was a white man to get to work? And later she said in an interview it took only one week before the boss came and spoke to me about being late yet. He had not noticed that the young man had been late for two years. My solution was to buy a car since I. The highly visible employees had to be punctual. And I think it's funny how she said highly visible employees. I feel like this is definitely skating around all the black woman. Yeah. I'm they wanted me to see my mistakes? We we get the subtext there. She got her architecture license in California in Nineteen, sixty two, and so she was the first African American woman to have one in California and she remained the. For twenty years wow until the eighties. Geez. We're all about it today. Sorry. Speaking of weird noises, all we should. Be Right back. Okay, so a recent study found that a great hair day makes you happier more confident, but that same study also revealed that ninety five percent of women don't feel great about their hair. I definitely relate to the confidence part, because if my hair is doing something. A. Little Weird something I don't want it to do then I. I can't stop thinking about it. The rest of the day Alma I. We've all been there. Paintings. Rosewater collection feels and smells amazing, and comes with a deep treatment that leaves your hair pedal soft. It was inspired by Ramadan traditions when many in the Middle East break the fast with rosewater, because of its hydrating benefits and the collection is. Is Free of sulfates, parabens, dyes, and Mineral Oil. You look really great, thank you. I actually worked in a place for a while that was very sensitive environmentally, and we weren't allowed to use shampoos that had sulfate them, so that's something that I look for these days and bonus the way the heroics now so experience something new and discover what's good with the Pantene nutrient blends collection. Here's the thing. Saving money with Geico is almost than playing pickup basketball. Because there's always that guy who joins your game, he never passes the rock. He constantly brings threes, and who completely hack you and then put his hands up and say no foul no FAO with GEICO. It's easy to switch and save on car insurance, no need to fake an ankle sprain because you're absolutely exhausted so switching. Save with GYCO. It's almost better than sports. And we're back. Thank you sponsor. So. Yes, she. She becomes the first another I another. Woman architect in California, and stayed that way for very unfortunate long wait until the eighty. Wow, yeah, and she was at that firm for a while to after six years at that I became the director of architecture there and she hired people at oversaw staff. Coordinated the technical aspects of some really big projects, and some of her projects were California Mart Fox Plaza Pacific Design Center, San Bernardino, city, hall, and the US Embassy in Tokyo. And Her son said that she thought designing building the actual easy part of the job while the production of it all the other nuts bolts that went into it was the real work of the job. Easy to downplay when you're. You've worked hard to get to some wearing. Such a major position is easy to downplay. Yeah right I just knew it. Is You know that's the easy part, but yeah, get how? Things like that have so many different moving parts. Yeah, so everybody's job is important, but yes, so she got she got to that point and for a lot of her career, she actually served as a project manager rather than a design architect, which was actually the case with many women architects who worked who worked in corporate farms, so she didn't design most of the big projects that she supervised and Marshall Pernille who was a former president of the I the institute architects told the La Times that she could design large projects, but that it was unheard of to have an African American female. Female, who was registered as an architect? You didn't try that person out in front of your clients and say this is the person designing your project so Marshall Personnel. who was a former president of the AA told the La Times that she could design large projects, but quote it was unheard of to have an African American female who was registered as an architect. You didn't try that person out in front of your clients and say this is the person designing your project. She was not allowed to express herself as a designer, but she was capable of doing anything. That's what Marshall said. Either, way she was a really good project manager, and she stayed with in until nineteen eighty, and she got, she was married several times throughout her life. During the time she was at grew, and she married Ralph Sclerotic an associate at Gwynn. In Nineteen eighty-four dot years after they married. In nineteen eighty, here's another I she became the first black woman appointed to the College of fellows of the Aa, and she was the first woman in the Los Angeles, AIA chapter to be given that honor. ooh! That same year she became vice president at the Los Angeles firm Welton becket associates, so she was the project director on Terminal One at Los Angeles International Airport, which was a fifty million dollar project that she finished before the start of the nineteen eighty-four Olympics, oh. Wow! This is another part of her life which I think, you will really appreciate yes. founded the women owned firm. SEGEL's cleric in diamond with Margot Siegel and Catherine diamond, and that was the largest completely women owned architectural firm in the US at the time. yeah like that. She, was the first. African American woman to co own and architectural practice. Wow, yeah, so many I nine hundred five. Yeah. The firm made a bunch of proposals made proposal on five projects. It got all of those commissions, so they worked on the Tarzana promenade, which was ninety thousand square foot, medical in retail center and a remodeling of the Lonsdale, civic center and they worked on additions to schools and other institutional buildings. One, thousand, nine, hundred five. This was after her previous husband died. She married. Doctor Cornelius Welsh. So another marriage in Hawaii. And she left Seagulls, cleric and diamond in nineteen eighty nine, even though it was a really cool thing to do because, even though they had these fifty million dollar projects, they couldn't get the large-scale projects that she really wanted. And she missed that kind of challenge in the money that came with those projects, which is totally understandable. Yeah, she became the principal of project management at the Jetty Partnership which was a firm that was known for his design of public spaces, and while she was there, she helped design and construct the mall of America. More back. To The mall of America. I've seen the Mary Kate and Ashley Short video where they visited. Okay now I'm just annoyed. But Not Gable. I've seen it multiple times. Katie Okay Yeah. Because, a lot of the days are in my lifetime. Accomplished and I'm just like. Wow, it took that long. Awarded and honored as she should have been. Crazy it is. What we have a little bit more for you, but first one more quick break for four sponsor. Okay, so a recent study found that a great hair day. Make your happier more confident, but that same study also revealed ninety five percent of women. Don't feel great about their hair. I can definitely relate to the confidence part because my hair is doing something. A, little weird. I don't want it to do. Then I can't stop thinking about it. The rest of the day Alma Guy. We've all been there panting. Rosewater collection feels and smells amazing. An comes with a deep treatment that leaves your hair pedal soft. It was inspired by Ramadan traditions when many in the Middle East break the fast with rose water because of its hydrating benefits, and the collection is free of sulfates, parabens, dyes and mineral. Mineral Oil your hand does look really great. Thank you I actually worked in a place for a while. That was very sensitive environmental. We and we weren't allowed to use shampoos that had sulfate them. So that's something that I look for these days and bonus I love the way that my hair looks now so experience something new and discover. What's good with the Pantene Nutrient blends collection? Have you ever seen something you couldn't explain? There are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people that report these experiences that believe they're having interactions or abductions with aliens, simply that defies logic. Scientists haven't found any evidence of extra tracks, you intelligence, and yet the mythology is that we have them, and they're coming in. 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Mary Kate and Ashley Video I. Just got to hold onto the old days. You use your judgment of what I gotta do. Just saying like it's not like we're that fresh I'm not that fresh up on it because I imagine it would be a thing that you go back to. No never not. Oh, well, maybe you do no judgment notice. She retired from that practice in nineteen ninety-two, but you know she had a long illustrious career, and she also did a ton of other things besides that career, she also taught at the University of California Los Angeles and served as a director of the University of southern California architect skilled, and she was a member of the Commission of the California State Board of Architectural Examiners Wow, yeah. A whole mouthful in the nineteen nineties. She lectured at Howard. University Columbia University and other schools, and she held seminars for people who are taking the architecture licensing exam, so she kind of worked as this mentor to other people. She said that she didn't have any mentors and. Role models growing up, but was happy to be one to others. which I feel like is important. They remember like lift as you will. Problem for anybody WHO's a first. How do you find? When you're the one that's paving the way, yeah! Remember when once you have! Let's teach others to do so. Yeah. I mean big league You definitely have to have a lot of Brazilians to be a person breaking down barriers like that. Especially, that is dominated even now by pretty much mel. People's Mel Peoples Mail people. Are. Always, that's. One of those words I love the word people's because it just automatically makes you smarter. Money's. Bill? When I say no. No Oh. We want you to take care. Giving I'm getting these. Enduring. You right now. More concerned. About the worry about the got to be really hard to come into a field that is still predominantly male based in male-dominated and trying to lead away. Try New seminars. That's phenomenal as a black woman just paving her way through. She felt that quote. Should be working on improving the environment of people in their homes in their places of work and their places of recreation, it should be functional and pleasant, not just in the image of the ego of the architect. I think that's good insight into how she felt about the work that she. Once. He retired. I like this part. She lived with her family in southern California is she had garden parties in the spring time. Really Fancy I don't know if I've ever been to a garden party before, but I would love to. I've been to one and it Wisconsin by Jin, company and beautiful. Jin. They're also much. I feel like doing is doing the thing that you drink at garden parties. Though No, you drink like Is it mint Julep type of thing and that's more. Isn't that Whiskey Inbox? Stops so more on those lines, maybe a little bit of lemonade hanging tease yes! But that would be what I think of as a garden party but if it was Mike Garden parties. Have a lot of done. I think we can make our own rules when it comes to the Garden Party so I think there's a lot of like that croquet game. Yes, again, whichever's to heathers? Oh Two people. WE'RE LETTING SAMANTHA DOWN ON. Friends here? If you if you keep naming things will eventually You guys also have the spongebob reference. True, yeah, I will watch heathers even I. Yes, we have a party. Let's have a garden party. Actually that was a theme party for that at one of the restaurants in Atlanta. DRESSED UP I don't know what it was for, but it was really cute. They're really cute and stuff like that. Yeah, we can, we can make it work. Is there like. The heather is like this is the sporty. Heather is spice girls, but with others. WHO's the leader? Okay, so I can just like scary heather when? Heather would be winona Ryder's character oughta heather. She's off Bianca. Oh, I can't do that. I can't that's. Out because. My. For you. Get me. heather on Ryder's character is the dark haired one in comparison Shannon Doherty isn't as well as well as Christian slater. Oh what a cast! She was still really active in all the architecture thing going into the later years of her life in two thousand and three, she was appointed to the California architects board where she served on the professional qualifications, committee, and the Regulatory Enforcement Committee. Is Really hoping you know she was just the. You want. The, whole community. Yes I am. I'm here for it. And she was on a bunch of other boards and committees to which we don't even go into in two thousand eight. They I gave her the Whitney. M, young junior award, which is an award that recognizes an architect or an organization that embodies the profession's responsibility to address social issues. And she died four years later in twenty, twelve of heart failure at her home in California when she was eighty five years old. But she. was clearly recognized for the work that she did while she was alive, but she has gotten a posthumous ord as well just this year in July twenty nineteen, she became the first black woman to be given the Institute of Architects Los Angeles Gold. Medal and that gold medal is given in recognition of a significant body of with lasting influence on the theory and practice of architecture, and that's the highest honor that the organization awards, so she's as many people are in have been awarded things posthumously as well so it's good to know that a person. He's talking about giving people flowers while they're still alive and for them to be awarded while they're alive, but. Also, important to remember people after they've gone in, they've done especially. Pioneering feels like this kind of opening like she acted as a mentor to opening it up to other people who may think that they don't have a place, and that feels like this and I think about this all the time when it comes to. Being a black woman to pioneer in spaces that a lot of people make think of as Weiss basis, but they are our meals spaces why spaces are spaces for men? and not having a kind of path, or not seeing a path or a way forward for you, because you can't see yourself in that organization, but there are you know they're they're you know they're? They're there and I think having you know being able to look back at a legacy like hers and being able to continuously honor her legacy is important. When it comes to remembering that we can continue forward on the path that she created there can be more black women architects in the feel they can. You can be licensed. You can fail, and you can apply somewhere nineteen times and the twentieth. One will be the one that you get, so that's why I think it's important to look back at a legacy hers. Right I spend well, put us. Yeah I agree I think we talk about on this show a lot power of seeing yourself somewhere and how much that can impact you especially when you're young? Child if you don't see anybody that looks like you, then you kind of think all that must not be for me right so I'm glad that we have people like this. We have our female I. that are s being examples and being mentors Oh. Yeah, and female I I wanted to shout out a couple of other people because I know. I mentioned in the beginning that she was the first licensed black architect in the US, so the first black architect period to become a member of the was Paul Revere Williams in Nineteen twenty-three. And before Norma, there were Beverly Lorraine Green and Georgia. Louis Harris Brown and they were also thought to be licensed as architects in nineteen, forty to nineteen, forty, nine, respectively in both of them were registered in Illinois, and so both of their stories are interesting as well and I felt like. We talked about this a lot in I and how there is. Is a path for a person to get to a I. There were so many other hands involved especially when it comes to inventions, right and stuff like that that a person's I wasn't isolated and also continuing to put into perspective and context why I is important in terms of like well, other people had access, and there weren't barriers for them necessarily but. But. You know it's there were leading up to her becoming having her first, there were other people who came before her in beverly and Georgia. Where two of those people and so their stories are really interesting, as well and Brown recognize the bears face because he was a black woman trying to work in architecture, so she learned Portuguese and move to Brazil in nineteen fifty-three, because you kind of realized, there was a burgeoning growing architecture seeing there, and she later got her architecture license there as well in Brazil and she moved there, knowing about all those advancements that were being made, and she was also kind of seeking racial democracy, because there was this kind of propaganda machine going on right now, saying. Look at us we have this really open. You know racial situation going on in Brazil but without needing to go into the details of the racial yeah, like a maneuvers of map, and still is happening in Brazil right now like Obviously as Propaganda made it seem so. You know the thing, but she also was. Successful when she got to Brazil started working there architecture, but yeah, those are stories as well if anybody wants to go on that path and. Continue. Looking at all these architectural first pioneering women in it. And you got a bonus, female I listeners like many female I within the female for homework. Homework Yeah I've always wanted to assign homework. Your opportunity. It's time. Listeners go out and find more female I for US and send them our way. because. They think that's about what we have to say. About Norma Thank you so much as always use. Yeah, it's enjoy being here so pleasure. Okay me, too. When you come here, we do and we would love for listeners to be able to find new because you do other things than this. You have a lot of other stuff going on. Yeah, I feel like I never know where I could tell them to. To find me, but I will say that I also host unpopular, which is a show about people in history who stood up to the status quo ended. Things were often persecuted for it. You can find unpopular and all the social media things like the facebook, the twitter and instagram and instagram's to grab, and you can listen to this show on all of the also. Things where you listen to podcasts wherever you're listening to this right now. You can also hear me on this day. In history class, which is also on all the social media, things and also on the podcast also on the. Thing that you used to listen, pick up the phone and. I don't do a good mid mid central midwestern. Whatever that old accident is. Transatlantic. Yeah, that thing. Get London on the phone. I don't want to hear any critiques because. The only thing they say over over at the London. General. that. We're not here to criticize him. Validates you at. Just to call London I WANNA call one. I've been waiting my whole life. To debut that. Everyone. That works. You can also email us at the media. MOM stuff at IHEARTMEDIA DOT com. You can find us on twitter at MOM's to podcasts or on Instagram at stop I'm never told you thanks as always to our super producer, Andrew Howard, Andrew and thanks to you for listening supplement ever told you production of iheartradio's how stuff works for more podcast from iheartradio visit the iheartradio, APP, apple, podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. So, here's something that some of you might find shocking. Ninety five percent of women don't feel good about their hair, but pantene is. That pans rose water collection combat's bad hair days with an innovative formula that uses rosewater derived from the pedals and buds of the Rosa Galca plant with paintings rosewater collection. I can really feel how much more hydrated my hair is, and it's sulfate Paraben, die and Mineral Oil free which makes me feel good because your needs. All those additives experience, something new and discover what's good with the Pantene, nutrient blends collection the btk. btk Killer Dennis Rader was dogcatcher married with children weighing. He doubled as a clown at children's birthday. Parties Ted Bundy was a law student. They all blend in I'm Nancy grace host of podcast crime stories with Nancy Grace and our new original concept killers amongst us where we break down the most evil crimes and focus on unsolved homicides year crime stories with Nancy Grace on the iheartradio APP or wherever you get your podcasts.