Podcast: Bold and Broken, with David and Jason Benham
I'm Shane Morris for the Colson center, as you may have heard, Johnstone streets, say, on breakpoint Christians, these days need to develop a theology of getting fired because many of us may one day have to choose between our careers, and our faith David, and Jason Benham know what Giannis when they stood for their Christian principles. They lost their popular HGTV show. But as you'll hear today's breakpoint podcast interview with Warren Smith, the Benham's know who they are ministers of Christ as we all are. And that's a role. They continue to play off the air. Here are Warren, cul Smith and David, and Jason Benham. David, and Jason Benham welcome to the program again. We had we had a conversation. Yes. It's been a few years ago now in his great to have you back on the program here at, in our be where you are emceeing, the opening plenary session today. What do you say to the group? Well, you know, Jason I well, first of all, I'm probably going to have to mop up, what Jason messes up. But, you know, we, we plan on the public policy session. We'll be talking about the unraveling of civil society. We've only got about five minutes, and then we run right into the panel, and then the opening session, I'm not quite sure what we're gonna talk about. We'll we'll have to see we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Okay. Well, Jason, what do you say, are you do you agree with him as what he says you're going to say what you're really going to say absolutely, we're actually going to talk about the church needing to wake up, and how we already believe the church is waking up and how all of these broadcasters. Here are a huge part of helping the church wakeup. So we're, we're excited to be here talking to them. When now in addition to being here to MC deviant what you guys have done in the past. I guess this is kind of a stick for you guys. You do it once. The problem would do a good job at something as they keep asking you back to do the same thing over and over again, but you also got a book, right? We've got a book we released it a few weeks ago. It's called Bolden, broken becoming the bridge between heaven and earth. It's our fourth book and one of the things that we recognized in today's culture, the shifting culture. Sometimes we realize very harshly, that God's boundaries are found God's blessings were found within his boundaries, and that's now becoming a bigoted stand, and so we won't Christians to be bold, but boldness apart from broken makes the bully, we don't want to be a bully, and by broken, we meet submitted a God, but broke and support from boldness makes a bystander. So there's ditches on both sides of the road. But when you're both bold, and broken, you can become a bridge that connects heaven earth for people in real tangible practical ways, it's twenty eight chapters of nothing but stories on how to be, and broken, and David, and I tell lots of folks that when Jesus wants to touch the material world, he uses the portal of man, if he does it any other way. Called a miracle. So we have to recognize that God is disconnected from mankind now. Jesus alternately brought the divine connection with his death on the cross. But we're told to pray Jesus teaches us to pray that connection continues. So it's not just a prayer. It's about participation, you know, your kingdom come your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, and the only way to do that is to stand boldly like Zeki twenty two. When God was said, I look for a man who would stand in the gap, but I found none David, and I are saying now's the time for us to stand in the gap boldly. Well, you know, you said something just a minute ago. David really resonated with me is that if you're bold, but not broken, you end up being a bully and on. It seems to me that, that kind of pretty well describes public discourse today is that people in some ways, we don't have trouble being bold, but we can't be vulnerable in front of each other or the people that are on our team will say we've caved in the people on the other team will use that Boehner. Ability against us. Yeah. Well, that's what God's that's why we wrote this book because if we're gonna engage which we have to engage a salt and light in this public discourse, but we have to do it from a position of broken by broken. We don't mean you're out of the game. We mean you're in it are dad used to tell us he said, boys, only those horses willing to be broken by the master are fit to pull the kings cherry, the rest are left to pasture, so broken from that perspective so that you could be useful. And one of the things that Jason and I talk about is that when you look at Peter in the garden when he was awakened from his sleep. He boldly reached for his sword. Right. And he that was the wrong spirit because he cut a do zero off. Jesus is like, no, we don't hurt. We heal within on the flip side. You know, you see him following Jesus now at a distance into the city and he was a bystander denying that even knew Christ three times. So now he lost his boldness, any became a bystander. But then at Pentecost Peter was the one that stood when the tongues of fire came, and he proclaimed the gospel, knowing he could have lost his life. He was both bold and broken so that day he became a bridge, that's the way that we can engage this cultural context. Jason, you said something a couple of minutes ago that I wanted to ask you to maybe say a little bit more about, you said being here in our be national religious broadcasters was a blessing because you see the folks here as being maybe instrumental in being that bridge. Sounds to me like then you are an optimist about the way things are going in the culture with fair. An optimist about the broadcasters who are actually being mouthpieces for the God. And speaking the truth, boldly, even though it may cost them their reputation. That's what I'm optimistic about. And, you know, the darker, the culture gets the broader light can shine and I am optimistic that the church is actually beginning to rise and beginning to wake up that I mean you look at David night, just spoke at a thing called the day of mourning several weeks ago, over what happened in New York with the legislation that changed in order to kill more babies. And we showed up forty five thousand people watch. Either online or, or were there and it was standing room only. And so the church is beginning to wake up and we're excited to see it. Do you think they're waking up because of legislation? Like New York where where it's kind of creating an environment where you can't be sought more. You've either, you know, it's the I remember the old labor union song, which side are you on boys, which side? Are you on? I mean is that kind of what's happening today? Yeah, we'll in this radical revolution. And it's a spiritual battle, it's not a Republican democrat or conservative, liberal battle, even though it manifests itself on those fronts, but it's a spiritual battle. But this revolution morality, the ceiling always becomes the floor, it just wants more and more and more. So when we look at abortion in the culture of death specifically in that one issue to see those legislators celebrating and clapping and applauding. And then to see one World Trade Center lit up pink in celebration of an expansion a radical expansion to an abortion law was really revolting. Millions of Americans weren't celebrating. They were grieving. They were morning. And so in that regard, it is waking people up. But then our messages, well, not only are they alive in human beings worthy of life in the third trimester. But also in the first and the second and they're like, oh, yeah, of course. So we're seeing a huge groundswell of pro life support around the country. David, Jason I wanna pivot just a little bit in our conversation. If I could just ask a to peek, under the hood of your car if I could a bit when you guys write a book, you do it together. When you guys are emcees at an event line national religious broadcasters. You do it together when you were in New York for that big event that you just mentioned Jason. He seemed to do it together. Is that a natural thing y'all rehearse this, do you, do you go back and look when you're writing a book is one of you, right? One chapter one other talk about the relationship between the two you guys and how you make it work with over now a long period of time without like killing each other. Well, we learned a long time ago in our dad taught us that too can get a lot more done than one and it's not just that we can get twice as much done. You know the horses at the Dixie stampede. They did the tractor pull thing or this way pool in the first place, horse, horse-pulled eight thousand pounds. The second place pulled seven thousand so they put the two together and thought that, you know, they pull fifteen sixteen thousand pounds. They pulled thirty thousand. Pounds. So they were able to do more together, sedated night, basically just know which lane that we operate best in. So when it comes to writing a book, I Jason typically will kind of take the lead on the book and then David comes in and works alongside with me. But when it comes to speaking David a lot of times, we'll take the lead on the speaking, and then I come in and fill in some color. But ultimately, David just does whatever the heck I tell them to now that is not true. You know, if you you analyze yourself obviously scripture teaches us to analyze ourselves to see if we're in the faith, but also at the same time, analyze yourself and see what you're good at and what you're not good at. And so I found what I'm good at that. Jason's half not very good. And then he's good at certain things that I'm not very good. The of course far more things that I'm better at. But, but we just get into our lane and our hearts truly by God's grace, we were competitive at first, you know early on in life. But by God's grace, we had a good dad and we genuinely had a conversion experience with Jesus. So our hearts truly wanna see the kingdom of God advanced because. That's our focus. We can get along really well with pretty much any venue. We're in. Well, you know, you've mentioned a couple of times your dad who I know, I've known your dad for probably twenty five years, and I've known you guys probably since you were teenagers, because I knew your dad, and you're right. You guys have a great dad Lebel, many of our listeners will know your dad of Flynn amusement alliance and the pro-life movement for many, many years. And he still active in your lives. But I'm wondering you know we've seen a lot of scandals in the church. We've seen a lot of Christian leaders fall in the last few years, and I can't resist asking you guys. What do you see in your dad's life? That is allowed him to have, you know, to stay in ministry into into without scandal for forty plus years and in your own. What are you doing about accountability and transparency and mentors? And that sort of thing to keep you straight a love that, that's probably one of the best interview questions, we've ever been given because it's so appropriate for our cultural moment. Our dad is right now he is still wearing the wedding ring with our mom, who's Pat been passed. Away for over two years. Now the he was married. Forty five years, faithful to my mom my mom faithful to my dad, and my dad at one point in his life was a national prominent figure on the news all the time. I mean, people would just flock to him for his autograph and stuff, but debt, always kept himself, low, he coached all of our teams. He loved his family. He was faithful. He would portray the object of up on approachability with the opposite sex. He was not a flirty kind of guy he just really him and the likes of like Dr Jerry Falwell and Adrian Rogers and Billy Graham, and some of these others just really there was no scandal there. And so are dead literally to this day? He's, he's still faithfully serving at the abortion clinics where he's ministering to the mothers there. He's faithfully serving in the church. He still wears his wedding band, and so Jason. And I we see that we want that in our lives. Now, of course, we're very open with our dad, and with the two of us, but we also have a core group of other men three to five men. And each of our lives that we've opened up to, and we are an open book. They can ask us any question. They want to ask us, and they do ask probing questions and wanna know what we're thinking in not just hey, what are you doing? But what are you thinking? And so it's been great. We've got to be because the power of sin is in secrecy. So if you're not secret than the sin can't settle in JC anything on Ed. Yeah, I would say the key to staying humble and the key to not letting any type of platform. Get to you is never inspecting your own fruit. So when the disciples came back after they cast out demons and they had healed the sick and they're all excited about Jesus. You're not gonna believe what happened in Jesus immediately, says, don't rejoice over that. Rejoice that your name is written in the lamb's book of life. If you stay there, no matter how much impact you make in your God. I'm just so thankful that I get to spend eternity with you stay there, and you'll be fine David, Jason, I'm going to pivot again in our conversation of could. Because some you know there are a lot of oaks here natural. Broadcasters that this is their day job. This is their, you know, their main gig, you guys have remained entrepreneurs and very entrepreneurial over the years at some level, I'm guessing you must believe that following God's calling, as an entrepreneur is just as valid as following God's calling as an evangelist is that true? I have that, right. Yeah. You've absolutely got that, right. Because that's what scripture teaches. We are kingdom of priests. So we were Royal priesthood and I, I love how Matthew Henry says when he described what a Royal priesthood is he said as kings in believers? We are kings. He says we ascribe power dominion in authority, and as priests we ascribe glory and honor and praise. And so in our lives as believers, it doesn't matter where we're placed or how we're paid we are ministers on mission, and our work is worship. That's the key. It doesn't matter if you're the pastor a plumber, you're a minister of God, you're on mission for him, and your work is worship and. So we don't define ourselves by where we are. We just defined ourselves by who we are, which are ministers of God, this Jason, there's no faults Takada me, there is a false dichotomy that exists. But it shouldn't where you think that the guys that are ministers are the ones who are the evangelists or the preachers, or whatever. And then the rest of us, which is ninety nine percent of the world are insurance. Salesmen, real estate guys and all that or teachers we're all ministers exactly, what David said, if people can just get that through their minds to recognize that you are a minister on mission in your work is worship. See the devil knows that how you see yourself determines how you conduct yourself. So if he can convince you that you're not in full time, ministry, even though you're mowing lawns fulltime, then he's going to win that battle. But if you know that you're a minister, even though you're on that walk behind mower, all all day, then when you see people and you see customers you see harvest. And so that's very important for believers to know that thanks for listening to the point podcast. To get your copy of the Benham's nuke bold, and broken come to our online. Bookstore at breakpoint dot org. And as the Colson center approaches, the end of our fiscal year on June, thirtieth, which so much appreciate your financial support for the break point podcast and the Colson center, just come to breakpoint dot org and click on give at the top of the page. Thank you Oren Cole. Smith originally conducted, this interview with the Benham brothers for listening in a weekly program of world news group to learn more about listening in to and g dot org slash listening. In for the Colson center, I'm Shane Morris.