Stolen da Vinci
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Spotify is the world's leading music streaming service and now it can be your go-to for podcasts too <music> <music> on march eighteenth nineteen ninety the most audacious art heist of all time took place at the isabella stewart gardner museum in boston checkout season one of empty frames for a twelve episode dive live into the gardner heist this season we will be exploring other art crimes and significant moments in the art world before returning to the isabella stewart gardner museum. I this is empty. Frames <music> welcome back to empty frames. I'm tim here today with lands in the crawlspace studios in worm town land sow goes it. It's going pretty well. How are you today. I'm doing great. I tried to rift just long enough to let me sit my coffee <laughter>. That's what i do right before we need to talk. I take a big swagger cough. Well <hes>. This episode is pretty interesting. Lance we again. Talk talk to paul. Turbo hendry's really become an are <hes> partner on this <hes> our goto in the empty frames world in the world of art heist art crimes significant moments art history and back by popular demand not only through necessity on our end but the crowd really likes them too he so knowledgeable he i blogs about the case so check out his blogs. Isabela stewart gardner museum ice case yes in all cases albert crime in general too yeah. There's he's got a blog called art hostage and you can link to them in the show notes that are also about art crime and he's just an interesting guy. He's been at this for a longtime. Lance started off as a knocker that somebody who will case a home for artwork something that could be stolen so he then delivers delivers that information back to the people that are going to steal it so we started off as a criminal and now he's a go-between liaison between people who were involved in our crimes times in law enforcement and he writes about it and he does research all the time. He helps recover pieces of art so that's what we're talking about. Here is his involvement in the recovery of davinci's. He's madonna so we're talking about. Leonardo davinci heard of him his version of madonna of the yarn winder really interesting interesting painting <hes> it's a woman holding a baby and there's also another version of the virgin mary holding jesus oh well yeah that's a woman holding the baby baby and it was stolen from the duke of clue you could book lews castle. He just kept it behind a glass. <hes> door like a glass encasement and these guys came in very a as all art crime all are there brazen <hes> they come in. They grab it. They jump out the window a car chase ensues but i'm not going to give it away to everybody right now. Turbo does a much better job as we just hop on and gopher gopher the turbo ride all right so buckle up everybody and enjoyed roy this episode and we will be back in two weeks with our season finale of season two of empty frames. Thank you very much for listening <music> <music>. Welcome back to empty frames. How're you doing today on doing great guys yeah. Thanks a lot for joining us again here back by popular demand and also by necessity every time we look into something significant in the art art crime or just general art world we tend to get into the underbelly of it and then we just tend to come right back to paul turbo paul hendrie because he's got his finger on the pulse of everything so back by popular demand and backed by necessity and what are we talking about today paul well today. I'm <music>. I'm going to take you on a journey which involves the fact of the madonna of the yawn wind by leonardo davinci is one of only he took the russians know the the version. We're gonna talk about which is on the juku preclu- and there's another interesting america co the lansdowne madonna so this is the leonardo davinci right. What is he famous for. Not a debate cheese fine obviously for the mon- release a oh cool he's drawings <hes> and for <hes> being the general shorts man in the medici period so real quick. What's the difference between the the aclu. Madonna and the landsdowne madonna which you said is in america and we're in america is that one whether lines down on his private collection <hes> and if you look at you could see mountains in the background which are lacking in league joker preclude russian and experts of come to the conclusion that lansdowne madonna is partially pint leonardo debate shape they could preclude but donner of y'all wind up cheat was mostly by a very very very large amount. Why is there some discrepancy here well other time. When leonardo da vinci painting he would have a studio uh-huh and a lot of students he would be painting. Somebody give walks of all that sometimes he students would finish them off but i will do crafts knitting things like object auto trader or or something like that so you might not get a full one hundred percent painting bali <hes> it's a lot of artists all to surround that period or even throughout history the the when they find lifetime they have students <unk> series amount then sometimes the students would complete the okay so <hes> let me just see if i can figure this out a little bit more so there's these two paintings that look nearly identical one of them was painted almost completely by davinci and the other one was probably started by davinci in front of his students and may be finished by student. Well yeah i mean that's that's basically it yeah. <hes> other precludes is regarded as probably the primary version and you can tell by the the six fingers on virgin. Mary's left hand in the lansdowne version. I'm totally. I'm totally kidding. I'm left handed to be honest with you. I think <hes> it's extremely difficult to actually <hes> unless unless you on <hes> forensic experts to distinguish them <hes> you know all we can size one of is one of the great artworks of the world okay cool. Yeah what's a little bit of the history here with the mcluhan. I'm the jacob aclu. I think auction in i think seventeen ninety seven around that time <hes> and expanding the family episodes and he's he's scottish right yet. The duke of clue is scotland's largest land on. He's an aristocrat and <hes> you know a member of the british aristocracy on you know probably probably half if not more of scotland <unk> landholdings <hes> all around the world you know one of those qual- old money goes back hundreds origin hundreds of years ever really get much into you yeah. I've never heard of the duke of book loo- i- i call lance the duke okay of worm town but it's kind of just an affectionate nickname because of our location here in wooster. Well yes to be honest with you. Ate some subjective tiv- your ado gama do for all dukes so duke turbo when this painting was stolen <hes>. What is the story there. How did it get stolen right now. Strategy south fee for the job. I ride on the davinci madonna heist heist of two thousand and three awesome click it or ticket exactly yes in august two thousand three two young nine nine haydn entrance fe to drum larry carso in scotland hung with the juku preclu- of y'all walks and posed as tourists when i got to the room which was onto the stag kayce which had a cabinet which housed of madonna of the janda body nado davinci. There was one god that she was a young lady. I think shooting one of the <hes> threatened her with a nice while the wall while the other say oakland the cabinet took out madonna of yom wine the leonardo da vinci and like both to call from jumped out of the window fled fled across the grass with confronted by two actual risk from new zealand responded. Don't worry this is a practice way the police and today vehicle that <hes> on the way to their vehicle they took the actual madonna beyond panty out the free throws frank on the role jumped gina volkswagen and drunk off a high speed. How large is this painting. Probably the size of our non probably fifteen twenty inches taken out of it's fine. It's quite portable. You could put it on via comes so anyway so anyway getting volkswagen. I drive for one mile where by switch 'cause they set light to the to the volkswagen volkswagen flea in the second call to glasgow in scotland right by the stash dementia madonna aw white for the initial blowback from the global media. I want to go back real quick to the castle drum drum land rig drom larry larry okay. This is a gigantic castle correct as a peter mayes these <hes> everything we envisage from the world cost and mike's mike's down tanabe look like to opt to down not sure what that means that it doesn't sound good down tonight. The is a t._v. Show exported from the kite to the united states so a lot of people in america with now the t._v. Shutdown tanabe which is owned it didn't mention but drunk larry carso as mehta huge okay okay and they they escape through a window. Was this a window that was on the first floor or second floor or seventh floor the ground floor ground floor. Okay okay yeah. Madonna theon one orlean are davinci was housed in cabinet with a loss from which you could run because the staircase of one of the stereotyping larry calls on the ground floor. That's pretty impressive that these guys pull this off in in two thousand three. You are now talking about the gardner from nineteen ninety. When technology wasn't where tat today two thousand three there was still some pretty significant technology technological ways is to prevent heis and just to just to go into the castle and simply opened up a glass panel and then hop out the window and you said they burnt the cars well right yeah that a priest trustable festival even two thousand nine hundred eighteen. You have homes in the u._k. And the cross europe which are the public and by that very night gotcha. It's extremely hard to provide a lot of security so to be honest with you. In america yes museums and they do have a lot of security but in europe you at scotland especially securities normally a secondary issue <hes> because i want to allow the public free access to the <unk> evolves and on the other question of burning out the vehicle. Yes i spade from drummond. Eric costs the volkswagen god they swap cars set lots of driving straight off to would scars go today had a car waiting for them. Yes wow yes of course like as soon as i got back to glasgow within a very very short period of time hours hops the the davinci madonna donna <hes> was sold by the face to the daniel crime family for fifty thousand dollars which doesn't sound a lot for fifty million dollars kind djing but for the it was a day's wages a day's work twenty five thousand dollars eight in four to three hours work so so the daniel family and scottish godfather of the criminal underworld coach george allen show jesse davinci madonna shortly shortly after the highest for fifty thousand dollars okay. Let's back up real quick here <hes> do we know who the thieves were now. That is a subject talk because that's who deny their colleagues had been on. I try that the leading to two conclusions asians won- littler had never had any criminal convictions and had denied type from before or more likely probably want british steinmeyer released in european rippin all europeans so yes. The police car is still hot that d._n._a. Type of not being able to match it to anyone. Okay is the method did of switching cars. Is that something common that we see in art crime during a get away yes crime. If you'll grow up cow country house house you might have a van and you would put it up on an soon as you get down the road split the whole intro which means that you know if one gets caught at least as you've got the whole <hes> so yes i mean not happen okay and now you said that they waited <hes> somewhere for for the blowback from the media before they did anything else so what what was the what was that like again. Can you repeat that and <hes> and how long was it that they waited there off the host the themes to glasgow and they went back to where they live within hours. I met with some from the daniel crime family. I give them the davinci madonna a night or save fifty thousand dollars in cash. Sh knife never be heard on seats okay so this happened really quick so it wasn't like they waited very long <hes> so they sold it on the david stolen. The die held the following day why he chewed eyesight talk. You know it was done for them. It was a commodity yeah. It was a commodity take stolen something which took a couple of hours like so fast in daughters <unk> accompanied of joel jonah short scottish godfather and the dinu crime family so now they are in possession of the davinci madonna and lie wrapping knock down. I'm getting the sense that this might have been a pre-arranged thing. Do you think that this crime family and shaw shaw contacted. These-these said we want the madonna or did they say get us something by davinci. It could have been easy to all the things could've come. I'm across from lowered costs <unk> holding security during the previous visit for al-qaeda still online now like shop stolen items mcdaniel family a d._v._d. Choir a diamond rain or <unk> madonna for a nominal amount <hes> yes ask your family could having <unk> drum lower castle was vulnerable and valuable to reach madonna donna whatever happens happens and daniel crime family joel john shaw had possession of the davinci madonna within a short period take time now selling stolen art that quickly is that something that happens most of the time some of the time or how much time because first of all you have to remain but not ninety nine percent stolen a knock davinci madonna's they're not picasso's that works for the ten thousand dollars hundred thousand dollars and ninety dollars but mostly ten twenty thirty thousand dollars so that i can be sold onto offense or or pull bronco for a relatively small amount but even bake things yes of course initials initials age get an amount of money which they're happy with for the day's work. It doesn't matter davinci madonna's fifty million dollars it could have been worth five hundred thousand dollars sixty thousand dollars will often walk mornings work for them was fine and so that was the he ended up with the journey for the madonna was only just beginning to pretty good hourly rate. I'd say yeah that works to be about a little bit more than minimum wage each little bit more than what we make here across the media's a little bit yeah <hes> okay so you just said the journey for this. Madonna was just the beginning before you get into the the continuation of the journey. Did you hear about this in two thousand three when it happened. When were you were you immediately on the case obviously around the world and obviously <hes> it was mouth-watering prospect <hes> to true to tell there were rumors that it was the scottish <hes> the the scottish on the world that had possession of this kind and i heard that initially it was wrapped up and it was hidden away in the scottish city of <unk> for about twelve months. How do you hear that how does that information asian council turbo through through contacts within the <hes> the <hes> the dwelled also through law enforcement and the insurance take distri as well you know and that ended up being credible. Yes i mean to be honest with you. Looking back most of information to manage to china was accurate when we look back upon the case and how it develops i mean i was in contact with the loss adjuster who is bolting by insurers his cops. A man could knock down from long. I think i spoke to in the next i and so <hes> to be honest in the car is rarely. Do people come to you. Did that guy come to you or did you reach out to him. I mean you know i i've unmarked del report for years and he <hes> i think he found me. I called him and said what do you think that the missing and so it will via kaizer that stage he wasn't even employed adjusted but in the subsequent days in wakes he took out the kaisui uses fake on regular basis. Is there anybody in the u._k. That you don't know i think you could extend that in in the global crime unwelcomed from law enforcement yang dwelled insurance saves victims on there. Isn't anyone right down podcast yeah. That's fair causes yes. How is that you're. You're just a social butterfly or how. How do you know have somebody contacts in this world i don't. I don't know i mean i di- i suppose it's thirty years of experience. You know i started out on the wrong side of the tracks so to speak got an education and now <music>. I'm sort of a social commentary on the crime. Well i mean he's quite on touch weld. The <hes> the very few people consider themselves experts expose them on one hand the experts on our crime turbo turbo. The roads needs to me to you lock in your world. It's a very gossipy weld. I'm the center the trip the crime gossip from each different angle and i find myself in my little beach houses as i sort of epi sang top of the global law crime gossip that's great so take us on the journey of the madonna post theft right postage wrapped up on its stashed wine pus then within a year a year like a private investigator cold michael brown mike brown will code him approach george allen show and say if you could help recover the g. madonna that might be a substantial reward now in the meantime markdale ripple had offered a substantial reward publicly on behalf of the insurers acts on hitchcock's of two hundred recalls but it was a substantial than two hundred thousand three hundred thousand crime conferencing june the reward could even be a million pounds <music> and shortly after the fact that was an article in the scotsman newspaper pop which valued the davinci madonna as being fifty fifty million dollars and the value neon dwelled would be six million dollars so obviously george allen show so i i would say that he sells so he responded to the private investigator michael brown the yes. I mean if he could help recovered the <hes> to b._t. Ritchie madonna in other sort of figures would be choking. We'll be six million how six million dollars sorry six million dollars. Show so mike brown than goes to the juku. Preclude the elderly duke or preclu- and says i might be able to get your mind back but the person who can help do that one six million dollars so that you could preclu- said well okay. Let's talk about this and he gave the private investigators michael brown fifty thousand dollars as a goodwill gesture which might brown then took back to jewel short guys to him which office reimbursed the family george show the original <unk> the aids so then discussion started type place about how the davinci will behind minded back and how the night will do it but then all of a sudden the kayce took a series the time when mark del rimpoche the art loss adjuster doc appeared in a t._v. Show which was a three par show about it was cold the big heist which had attainable in our veterans saves going to stay tien-ching and it showed how i would stay <unk> how i would try to read some it back and during the shot mop down rinpoche saves we like it when they ask for roy is we goats lawyer's office and soon as the pining as we arrest everyone and we the reward and no one gets paid with george shaw. A mike brown saw this on the tv december two thousand four. I spooked by the obviously so naive code negotiations with the ju- preclu- a mocked outrun vote then we moved to january nineteen sorry january two thousand five when mocked our input trying to retain himself the duke of preclu- the insurers and the police reach out to mike brown guy the private detective and say would you have another nov go because now we will give six million dollars if you can recover the ci madonna on nightside. There's a sign of goodwill will take you to a bank vote in edinburgh where you could see the six billion dollars sitting on the table in cash to prove that we impaired so mike wilson judy went to the banking of the vote whether there was six million dollars sitting on a tiger in the vote and and they said if you get davinci madonna back you can have this monthly it goes back to joel short says i've seen the mahdi six six million dollars as soon as the debate you. Madonna is handed back. I can collect the six million dollars so the a plan was hatched and the location was decided what would happen on the die would be brown. The private private investigator would go to the bank could sit in the votes in front of the tied with six million dollars in some how does and george allen show would deliver the stolen davinci madonna to a pre agreed location on the money will be given to mike brown and he would lease eastbound however on the die of the kind of sorry on the diet the hand the location was was sorted out on my round and he got sucked passing jimmy boyle royal james boyle check out to the <unk> so make sure everything was was saif and george allen short was to drive to the location russian one hour before the mates and to drive down the road in east royce with the davinci madonna in the boat and if jimmy boil guidance thumbs up everything was kind for the meeting to take place in allah. If it comes down it was everything is bad. It's a set up an ambush. Get out okay quick. Joel allen show drove down the road. Now before the mating john's boil put some down sign that it was a setup george <unk> drove off and stash the davinci were donner a guy on the might round light joining the dialects last bank when he spoke to george shaw and jimmy boyle like i said i had noticed undercover police. One was rhode swayed up who kept talking into his hands. That was a couple in a cau- a now as a man reading the news. I there was also men hiding behind the cottons of a house that was opposite may lies the place swarming with police. Wow okay <hes> a couple of questions there air <hes> when you say the painting was in the car boot of the rolls royce. Do you mean the trunk. Yes okay. I'm joe johns alan. Short had the direction madonna stash an elderly relatives house a wardrobe or in the attic you know the loss fights and on the die of behind out when i put it in the trunk of his rose royce to go to the handover down the road in our full got the thumbs down from jimmy boyle has sped off and wider jimmy boyle. Give him the thumbs-down because young become a police officers. How did he know they were undercover. Police officers is is that conspicuous reading a newspaper and public these days well to be honest with you. I mean people are mike. Brown is a private investigator. Jimmy boyle i had some. I'm late with with the criminal. Well get to know plus a road sweeper cates token into his hands. You've got copper winner carl. You've got man hide behind the cottons. You know not only did these one sort of m._c._i. All m._r._i. Five ks well. They just police officers from scotland. Who would you stressing dress implying the coppa so the guys hiding behind the curtain that was in the bank. They were hiding behind the nose in a house so kamarck brownies sitting in the vote. You can imagine yeah front type six million dollars with these. Why teaches screwed over the cash easy run the bank but how how did this person see the people hiding behind the curtain says he was the lookout he was taken it out and waiting for the rolls royce account. He agreed to locate she went hand. Type place and more rounding private investigates was trevor enough to send in someone their hours house before the mate to check it out to see it was kind sadly the become a police officers one that professional i got i got saying as soon as i say it's joe shot. He drove off a nasty davinci madonna. Who was the guy who gave the thumbs down doyle. Jimmy boyle jimmy boyle so i mean the worst thing that would happen jimmy boyle. Is you know he's always airing on the side of caution even if these were just regular people oh he's gonna give the thumbs down and say i don't know this weird guy was talking into his hand for god's sake well i would say that's the the one giveaway or the curtains <hes> those of the giveaways as from from the description to people sitting in their car who we say that's anything <hes> err on the side of cautious reading a newspaper. I don't know anything about that someone talking into his hand. That's super conspicuous same thing with oh so we have to remember this when we hear of a successful surveillance undercover the operation you don't hear the ten fifteen filed operations like tried and say yeah. You're not so we hear on the police on the cover. Agents arrested capable but we got here on the yesterday that was four undercover surveillance operations. The police didn't arrest anyone. Aw that's why we get you perfect tim. I feel like you'd make a terrible lookout guy. I feel i think everyone would go to jail and you'd be like what it's normal. Someone's behind the curtain. Someone's reading the paper par. What are you talking about. What is that been illegal. Okay so what happens now so we have the we have <hes> shaw. Who's this this kingpin rolls royce. He gets a thumbs down. They speed off. We have <hes> michael brown. Who is who's just left the bank after you you know left six million dollars sitting on a table in the bank where we at now they reconvene. Is anybody in trouble non. I'm on recently. I'm jimmy boyle says i saw suspicious. Characters joel short said without stash during madonna rows to me he gained codes mopped out rainbow in pro and the police and the aclu says are now it was <unk>. You try to solve this. <hes> you get six say now. The police didn't know how the debate you. Madonna was in the trunk rolls royce. I didn't know jimmy boyle was standing there right i did all i knew was mark. Brown was in the bank vault with the six million dollars and somewhat was china. This pre pre ryan's should hand over the jamaica madonna so the mckean of the davinci. Madonna is driven driven back on the ground. The next thing that happens a statue vinci madonna is then used as collateral for aw loan of half a million dollars right which is by the irish under weld an irish godfather's. Thank half a million dollars type possession of the debate team. Madonna that was intrigued thousand five took thousands and six and everything went quite a police michael brown sex relation. Try set it off. Forget about everything and so that was the end of the suda police upright should the next thing is the madonna elsewhere gets in the possession of the irish criminal godfathers for a debt of five so i'm andrea darlas which was to be used in a property deal. Anger is flat out the easiest way to make podcast anger gives you everything you need in one unplaced for free which you can use right from your computer or even your own creation tools allow you to record and edit your podcast so it sounds great. They'll distribute your podcast for you so it can be heard everywhere spotify apple podcast google podcasts and many more you can easily make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership so download the anchor app or go to anchor dot f._m. To get started now anchor is flat out the easiest way to make a podcast anger gives you everything you need aide in one place for free which you can use right from your computer or even your phone creation tools allow you to record and edit your podcast so it sounds great great. They'll distribute your podcast for you so it can be heard everywhere spotify apple podcast google podcasts and many more you can easily make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership ownership so download the anchor app or go to anchor dot f._m. To get started now now. How does michael brown come across as so confident or brazen that he can contact the police say you're trying to set me up deals off. How how did he not get some sort of like <hes> rep. Reprecussions percussions just based on his involvement in this row first of all michael brown was a private investigator saw obviously had contracts in the relates contacts with the police <hes> he he used to work crawfish something in the court system so he was someone who was done. He had nothing nothing to do with the five hundred thousand dollars off a million dollars now he's now the pitcher for a minute okay so now half a million dot rights now the debates tomato mcdonald's being helped by the godfathers half a million dollars as long guys for a property deal we then phospholipids two thousand and seven in two thousand seven to amit shah private detectives from livable code roby graham jack jack doyle won't star stolen often stolen items website code stolen and stuff reunited reunited and what they were hoping to do was to try to recover stolen things that sent humane or whatever like what not not necessarily valuable and high in the back to the victims they then went through isolated saw a lawyer. I knew it manchester code marshall ronald in austin to help them out the website so nice out the website and i made a few slow recoveries of autism jewelry amount you so i call sold copper was put up on this website to <unk> recovered some stuff next. They approach ah irish contract. You obviously knows yours godfa. Those who says i can recover the davinci madonna how much money <hes> <hes> would be paid if we can recover it so <hes> ropy grinding jack doyle then speak tomorrow one of the lawyer and zay. How can we do this where the dimitri madonna's handy back and a reward is paid so marshall gone owed dane. Thank contacts to lawyers in scotland because obviously this scotland has a different legal system than england so he could solve deeper to lawyers in scotland they hatch decline the night would get legal agreement whereby they would hand back the madonna and millions thousands of dollars be paid then in august of two thousand seven marshall gonna contacted mark dalrymple the author justa who was employed by the insurance company to investigate the davinci madonna kites and he sent him a t._v. of of the of the debate she madonna shot in the principal's life and said he had gone to a private detectives incompetence of madonna but without any arrests and i want you to and he wants to know how much reward would be valuable but the one fight stiking my the art hogan this was. He said he didn't want any police. Involvement now any successful recovery especially if you're annoy or louise revolve must include law enforcement and if law enforcement dunk on their own i agree then everyone woke so why life basically include impulse but you leave yourself open to be set up on stung which will happen eventually so you're saying that it was a marshal ronald who showed the d._v._d. To the insurance loss adjuster and he was the one that also said that he didn't want the police involvement right gotcha and you said that that's a mistake and he should have law enforcement involved to some extent yes of course okay so you were involved at that point to yes. Yes yes of course because i'm to be honest. <hes> then what happened i was i was approached by dalrymple and the undercover police are made to call postal might log explaining linux the legal ramifications right and and the only why the davinci madonna could be successfully recovered will be if legal agreements worried price <unk> by lawyers and advocate without guidelines what was done in the tonic heights the the agreement from the police you than and getting agreement from insurers preclu- i then you taek that took <unk> to a high court judge your honor. We want to recover the davinci ritchie. Donna is this legal and we will stick to our part of the dog and it's the judge says yes like get an atomic ice. You can present marshall marshall ronald off the reservation and didn't want any police involvement so after marshall ronald roby graham jackdaw. Oh so am i post on my blog. They then move forward. Amok down <unk> stepped aside. I introduce them to john. Craig aac david restaura- who said that represented the do preclu- but in reality pose undercover police officers and no one from the recovery parties knew that this was that they were dealing with undercover police. Well tell marshall the irony police. He didn't tell jack gone or roby. Grind iron copper police okay now. I sat down and i haven't i haven't made chain and it was a great to be davinci. Madonna was handed back the could preclu- would pay six million dollars to marshall ronald lawyer who would distribute to the scottish lawyers and to to jack doyle robbie graham and whoever i have a feeling that this isn't going to go well well to be honest with you at that point masha one or two one point asked john craig and not nine use undercover police so on the league would agree with that should have been a red flag. The next thing you should have done was involved. The police look privately will have a buyback chiapa. All the parties are agreed and if the police are on board with this this can happen but he didn't do that now. This is the next thing the other big how out which outcome was the irish godfather's once they're half a million dollars back before they would even with the painting forget about what promises ought awed down the road somewhere with writing by with of six million dollars so masha ron dane goes to clients of his brothers who had one and a half million dollars compensation for something else that was in marshall client akao now and he said conroy you seven hundred fifty thousand dollars of that so released a davinci with donna when our six million dollars. I'll put the money back. Plus russell is something for our major to it. One of the provinces yes the other ones said no but marshall ronald took as a green light marshall who wanna drew out in cash five hundred thousand dollars offered me dollars and the cashier's check for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars he then gives that briefcase to robbie grime jack doyle who then go to a car parked and give it through their i rish contact who's connected to the irish godfather's then some nights ropy grime jack doyle a given the debate she donna and it was it was in a lot steelcase. You use school camera equipment to protect you so now they've got it. They unstop to make their way to clouds. Go where it's been arranged the i will hand over the officers of wearing a very prestigious scottish lawyers where the scotties noise involved and marshall ronald john craig and david rest will be wasting on the way scotland the weather was really bad so robie grinding jack doyle stop tongue in a hotel and i took the time to have their photographs tycoon title with madonna on on all kinds of things it would do which one night accomplish getting the press some tells me that would bite them and they asked maybe you shouldn't didn't do that so soon after recovering it so i hadn't even hanging out yeah yeah yeah so the next the next morning like a drive live to the to the solicitors to the lawyer's office like kings road a narrow the trim scottish lewis. There's marshall ronald. There's john john craig <unk> who's representative but in reality on the couple police a divy undercover police i open the they. They should like get madonna to be g._l. John tried looks academics and things in the back of it which he knows the original. He says he's founding superglue to give him the good news but in reality this signal to the police bursting he might the co- the police bursting from everywhere and arrest everyone in the room he put it in young alva- police officer has by type them to the police station and charge to scottish law is marshall ronald jack doyle and ropy grime with armed robbery <hes> handling the davinci madonna attempted extortion of six million dollars and lots of other charged. I appear in court and i get i owed and the trial type. Three years is before it comes to trial in scotland. Hang on now loves the release of now as five people three lawyers and two private correct indicted for the davinci case they then go back to our old friend. George allen show jimmy boyle and camargo brown the private detective then charged etcetera with attempted extortion of six million dollars for the the clothes so you now have two groups of people the charge in the davinci case which will mean two different trials and then that took thousand seven. We have to fast forward you two thousand ten when the trial stops got a couple of questions before we do that what happened to the seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars that marshall ronald took from the two brothers account that way to the irish connection. Would someone like the ghost rider he was obviously. I said he was next paramilitary. <hes> i all right line or something not not that was involved in crime that five hundred thousand dollars was never seen a guy date. Cashier's check was stopped okay. I didn't get the five hundred thousand dollars way and went into the underground. It's never be saint sense so that those those brothers were just out five hundred thousand dollars because now now because there's something called the lloyds indemnity fund which reimbursed brothers and subsequent excellent <unk> is lola marshall ronald had to face the consequences of that light sarong okay so what happened to the painting at this point was a pint team was comedy lawyers of browsed wearing and it was taken from that to a national museum <hes> check that he was okay and then bachelor jud couple code. I now it sits in the national museum of scotland on a long term loan would add this one thing though the one month before the recovery hatton. Do you not told the two thousand seven the very elderly juku died so never got to see a he's beloved madonna of yard line. The knowledge amaechi recovered. That's tragic yeah. Yeah yeah okay so but there's a there's a whole story after this so everything gets wrapped up the painting is on long term loan and seemingly you we know safe secure but what's going on legally to the people who arranged all of this right i in two thousand and ten trials stops at high school in scotland and lasts for two months of the term. Scottish lawyer is marshall ronald jackdaw rob graham now in in the scottish legal system. You can have three budgets. You could have guilty. You can have not guilty but there's also a third. The code not proven which means that you're not guilty. You're not quite not guilty by you still won't collide its verdict of not proven its scottish low salaries. We might think you'd be you'll only little bit. You know enough to be like that. It's great trial. What's the comparison here a mistrial jury yeah yeah well. No yeah not proven could be something. I think the american justice system which means that you could admit some admit something but it's not on your record or you or it's a misdemeanor or it's eight something. This is no time before a jury but he's something the is an anomaly scottish law guilty not guilty or not proven so anyway after two months trial costing costing millions of dollars over five of of the davinci of not proven so jack dolan robbie grind leaves the caw aw in scotland and drive straight to drum larry carso. I'm bang on the door. Unsigned your shit weighing on. I reward money now. We've been found not guilty whereas money judaica preclu- what was he wouldn't speak to them. They then tried to apply to the insurance company inside you papa reward. We wanna collect insurance. Company refused paiva now signed that i need you to place a approval <hes> before they would pay anything out. The police refused to give approval and so marshalled ronald independently set about now launching a lawsuit against the police insurance company and the two cooper clue to recover the promised six million dollar reward money in the main time shortly after that trolley collapsed the criminal prosecutions of is dropped the case against michael brown george allen shaw and jimmy boyle so you had accused old finished and that was the end of it so to speak until we move onto the lawsuit from marshall ronald okay. Let's hear about that will marshall ronald launch also also and he couldn't get any l'egalite or help with it because establishing close so he did it over on his own and it was hundreds of hundreds of pages ages and <hes> issue proceedings in two thousand fourteen and it kinda cool in two thousand fifty a highschool where yeah it was thrown out where he didn't receive any reward whatsoever <hes> and so that's the end of it to. They very traumatic. I would like to sign this however marshall ronald who are now very well and he's defense <hes> he had a terrible injury the accident many years ago which left him with the brian injury and he's he's what he regarded as bipolar so the davinci casey this is something whereby i think the he talks with the enormity of being a prostitute <unk> davinci madonna that he he's god upswing and he didn't act as a lawyer and do things the right way. He could have done things differently but it's like all of these high-profile office. Everyone becomes intoxicated with the intimately and with the whole case regarding the case whereas everyone becomes territorial do i no one wants to give credit to anyone else for anything i might say on a particular case and that can be very <hes> device so through your contact <hes> with marshall <hes> we reach out to him for an interview and he he declined but he said something really interesting. He said he's deleted all his records in a cathartic exercise of soul cleansing and we we found that kind of an interesting way to put something behind you. I guess obviously this is a traumatic thing for him him and his family but i'm just kind of trying to figure out what the moral of the story is the morrow aw of the story is that if you have good intentions that you won't mind those tensions being relate to everyone if we want concerned i there's no good cutting corners and to be honest with you as they should know backed up at the he ended the day on the charming heights hackman was type gallery said i want you to quiet german six million dollars to reconstitute tirona paintings engines. They went to the high court in london to judge and said this is our intention is it legal and the judge said when he's not on u._k. Soil british english soil <hes> objections it marshall loaded go the information and gums haiku in scotland and said to a judge iran. Ah we want to recover the itchy madonna raise fifty million dollar icon off work but this is how we want to do it kind you sign that that will revolve orlando for if he says beyond law food. I don't do it if he says he's love like our heads but he fights. All mistake was not wanting to speak to colleagues in the first place. Wanting to cold is because legally. There's no law that says you can't buy back your own stolen stolen property. There's no laura kind and there's no law for giving a reward. If long lunacy something someone steals it and all of the sudden change says i found this is no law that says lance capri would change for finding something that was stolen off of him. There's no laura you guys to do it legally first of all if i if i lost something or if it was stolen i would make my first phone call to be to you and and then we'd go from their coach. Let's say i want the salary for this month. I mean what happens you see the properties that all of a sudden in talks with debate she mcdonagh vonnie edinburgh brightstone willing to say and they get these delusions of grind. I'm the marshals. Were no but we wanted to be. The knight in shining donning all comes hung was pitchy as the aclu. I recovered unfortunately he did not cover his tracks a completely is it fair to say that there is something about stolen. Art of famous are beautiful paintings by done by masters. Is there something you about that that makes people irrational and and do things in situations like this that they would normally do well. Yeah i mean but also i think we apply that to anything. That has an intrinsic high-value. That's fair you know we we we can be very fluffy auty faulty and talk about you know now we can be on culturally ran academic joke about old masters a your marinari mabuhay abby would still try intoxication a ferrari. Okay you know i am a yellow diamond blue diamond diamond net the means you know if something has extremely high value they obviously everyone can get intoxicants okay so it's not necessarily like something something mystical about this beautiful artwork or this beautiful diamond. It's more people see dollar signs. That's what motivates them well. You know i would sighted yet because to be honest with you. <hes> you know some people can look at summer at straightalk inside the ten dollars. He's worth hundred million dollars. Some other people can cite our ids particular. Some could say i'm not boats. Y'all larry's the most beautiful you're saying so being a work of our he's. He's a subjective notion so i guess my question is how could this have have gone more smoothly like it. It sounds like at every turn. There were mistakes made that led us to a point where there is a couple of trials and and a huge waste of money and the painting ends up back in the hands of the owner anyway. Yeah i mean you on your millions of dollars that we used in trials. Could it be used a kite. The reward however now the why should have gone was marshall ronald shoulda contacted markdale rainbow said i've got a d._v._d. Can you around your meeting with the investigating police anoop aclu or his representative and not eighteen he should set the police look like crimes who are going to remind nine to a private investigator. The guy is a tablet d'ici madonna. Is there a y you will allow to happen. The davinci madonna to surface and money's can be paid to me if i sign now fine. We'll why if i say yes then you explore further once you get them on board and the insurance company in the jacob aclu you you get a package and you taek. It's a high court judge inside. Look you're on. This is what we intend to do. If anything is something legally we're gonna do wrong. Points out then after that trolleys judical precludes insurance at now we take on the paying any rewards like i wanna piney when lender jacob preclu- under oath in the marsh ronald lawson trial was honest by marshall said did. Did you intend to ever aw offer a reward he said no. He's expected to release to recover reaching madonna for nothing okay and so that's kind of typical too because i i mean we've talked with you about it. In the past a lot of people who are in possession of stolen art work are afraid to come forward even if they cannot sell this this artwork. They're afraid to come forward because there they think they may get the book thrown at them when they're just trying to give <hes> this artwork back yes because what happens it goes yes he goes into the all of a sudden you approach paid with stolen and then those would want to say you know nice glory. Sorry i've arrested someone all you. Everyone wants the limelight and that's the problem the problem that you get so how often often do things like this happen and they turn out to be fake <hes> order they turn out to just never come to fruition like what what is it less than ten percent of stolen. Art is recovered right so this this davinci madonna is already in a category. That isn't typical well. Yeah i mean to be honest through your that their operations undercover operations ever attempts to hand batstone on every day of the week and nine out of ten of them dunk come to anything because because <unk> who had stalwart now it's a sustain a now they won't get quite all authorities one come forward with it because because they know they have the money <hes> and i wouldn't get any arrests so it's a mexican stand-off and so what has to happen is something has to that where all of a sudden people can come together all surprised on either side you know at the end of the day czar t say yes. We want that back so desperately. He would allow money to be paid because they're already. She's when money's been and throughout this entire process. The duke never knew what was going on right well now the new juke known more of course he met with michael brown yeah right <hes> and he was informed of what was going on out into these desks. Yes i mean he died one month before. They recovered the madonna in october. Two thousand seven he was aware that was an operation underway to <hes> <hes> okay and do you think that there was something intoxicating. <hes> that that marshall ronald became became part of when he got involved in something about the the underworld that was more intoxicating than the financial benefit. I'm upset that yes. I mean yet notion. The marshall ronald would be the guy to recover they. Madonna of the jawa by leonardo davinci was something jumped the intoxicated intoxicated robbie graham jack doyle and so all of a sudden surpass. Perhaps the monetary aspect suspect that he might mistake second mistake was using the money from a client account to pay to pay <hes> the irish guy so release the debris madonna without telling police. I guess let me rephrase the question. I i didn't phrase it properly. Do you think that marshall ronald was intrigued by the notion that he could outsmart the scottish mafia kingpins and be sort of the average guy and outsmart career criminals. I don't think so because that was the case i to be honest marshall going to cooperate with the police. I'm gonna negotiate. Did you to set up reward when everyone else arrested him right. Is there anything from this case that we can learn and apply to the gardner case yeah what needs to be done is is transparency adult one. I don't want people to a crime with the guard the guard on its own pedestal away from everything else because of the notion that it's impossible to hand back that were not without permission a won't the godly case to be this one unique cody grail where we do things hats we wouldn't do on other casey's sees indict people out with some god neurotic wanna hang back and get paid. Authorities law enforcement the gardner museum anthony anymore right. I'm tom copley. Oh don't want to fight by people money behind me back the guard morale and they won't arrested indicted convicted and that's well within net remix jill that so that sustained of having a guard until such time as that gap has closed then we just have to sit back and hope the law enforcement stumble across the guard garard work during another investigation. We called a boston ian standoff here. Yeah i mean that's what you hide from diana postal nian standoff and you know you. Cannot you know you could understand signed. Why why they've done that but why only problem is he's a lack of transparency transparency <hes> from the f. beyond gardening. You know if i said tell the public but don't tell the public that we just swamped the outback. We don't want to arrest anyone. There's immunity tang tang million dollars when actual facts all wheel now that it's a feick rewarded hiking <unk> on in many respects the garden investigations. He's been fighting investigation. I mean normal crime does a need folate steps forward and he's willing to sacrifice <unk>. Throw someone in the wolves inside this. This address has stolen off. The police raided the company all the rest of the people in charge with hind bring you full gets paid. Unagreed reward all reward right short of that. It's very difficult every now and the guy and historic trey a few times police can be given an allowed <unk> comics. A money can be high to <unk> respite minds that has happened. The ice says the case there are other countries. Were advertised happens. Not that's why i always want to separate. God says a unique separate from your crime. I think that is a very fair and accurate assessment of the gardner case yeah yeah but how many said it'll be nice bright. It'll be nice for people actually feel. I could be output. Put on a bit more honest about god and not drawn hoodwinked. The people tried to distract the people by talking about this is history and these the people doing the stat and the other not focus on how he recovered the garden route also found very interesting the guys from t._r. Say i mean i'm divy. Divy tonic medical facility william molyneaux was released apparently in two thousand fifteen. No-one's make sure that <hes> stephen kazaks is listed not be released until twenty forty four yet. He's not in the custody of the bureau of corrections. I don't know what that mase. I could mean could possibly mean witness protection. Oh oh you are not man. I shouldn't be shouldn't have said something like that now as back i only said that because you said it in your email to yeah of course as close as yeah yeah exactly that's what everyone would assume that information's on a public website so you don't i need more than true brain cells to workout stadium and resenting not june for released to twenty forty four. He's not in the custody of the bureau correction. Where is he not working. Donald is well for the record. I wasn't aware amazing. Along the amazing people talk about how information is suppressed yet the website you could go any prisoner in the in the u._s. Correctional system so she's come in front of you well. We got some good gardener info there at the tail end which is pretty awesome all the who's who and where are they at now <hes> <hes> players in the gardner. I will like to say if anyone has something that'll fit into a two by three p. He'll box say maybe a eagle or rembrandt. A postage stamp sized self portrait. We had a post office box twenty two front and st f. r. o. n. t. box two three zero worcester massachusetts make that up to crawlspace media now i agree. I've always say ed for me. The toll in the garden the case is the crooks. Get your those gardner are nothing and authorities. Get nothing in other words handbag handbag dog neurology not ruled now indictments now arrests anonymously hang by evening so less work about just kind served. It gives hope we all want hunt. We've got no indication of the existence of the gaga in nearly twenty nine years to give everyone everyone hope and to continue the many careers of people who use the garden that case <unk> as <hes> as part <hes> of that <hes> repertoire hand something back anonymously. That's not the most valuable thing yes he eagle video that the lead lead the vase or daigle drawer. You know something like that. Dunk tronc collector reward and dunks down open yourself up to be arrested zarzis not so let's get back to the catholic church confession bumps. Just gonna stick wanting the confession box. Knock on the door and say follow next door gardner all that you can't trust those priests well. I don't know every five one shot good ones that yeah just kidding. I'm not will be happy sumatra thousand nine good stuff you so much for opening our world to get another very fascinating story involving art highest recovery and just what happens when sort of average people get involved in the whole thing yeah of course so many base the food chain you know what happens is when peyton the type that position on the third of china which is not as that's when mistakes happen i mean i'm not some law enforcement as well. I mean the davinci casey's pathak scottish as police used cut probably cops right except right tomorrow. You're going to be a road sweeper. Road switch occurs. We're going to recover a fifty million dollar piloting from staff behind so all of a sudden. That was the case down costs. What's the faster time to debate. Gee what everyone realized. I was on the cop cops the second time it was those who handing back the lawyers with those guys is that messed up the second time by not insisting on legal agreements <hes> to cover themselves under the judicial system. The whites did millions of dollars on a two month. Trial ended with no convictions and somewhere. Leonardo davinci is laughing dancing. I didn't even paint <music>.