Emergency Butler Trade Pod


Oh, yeah. We have much to discuss here with this Jimmy Butler trade, but I want to remind you. I that navy federal has mission to put members I by making their financial goals. The priority receive a lifetime of membership benefits to help you and your family accomplished your life missions, like a full suite of financial products designed to fit your needs twenty four seven live support and access over three hundred branches auto near military bases. Visit navyfederal dot ORG. For more information. Call one eight eight four to sixty three twenty eight or download the navy Federal Credit Union app. Message and data rates may apply. Our long national nightmare is over Jimmy Butler traded to the destination that probably was discussed third among those where he might be sent out side Miami and Houston, but toxic clearly fizzled in that direction. And so Tom Ditto decided finally to pull the trigger. And it seems like the impetus was that they weren't winning with Butler. Right. I mean, that's what we said. Danny was like, well what's going to get him out of there? The fact that this idea that they. We're going to still win with Butler and Tibbs was going to save his job with Butler was proved to fallacy and I think at four nine after a loss to the kings last night. They had reached that point four nine zero and five road trip is rough. I mean, that's a lot to take in. Yeah. They were road games. They lost the Sacramento on Friday night. I think a good place to start with this in any traits while usually do is with the terms themselves. So the deal is Jimmy Butler and Justin patent who just had his option declined. So he will be an unrestricted free agent in the summer of twenty nine thousand nine for Robert Covington Dario, Sharon, Jared Bayless and a twenty twenty two second round pick per real GM. Philly has the better of theirs in Denver. So that's probably not gonna be a great pick. But it is it is something and of note in that both teams create trade exceptions in the deal because of how it was structured Minnesota gets one for two point seven million. Philly gets went for two two point five. Yeah. And Minnesota reducing their luxury tax not Bill because they weren't in the tax, but breathing room by a little. Philly was so far away from the taxes. Here didn't really matter. They look twenty million in room. Philly still has the room exception as well to try and sign someone he we should start from Vilis end here while we're sticking with the financials, obviously, there's so much to talk about with how this is gonna look on the floor is actually doesn't hurt Phillies financial situation as much as you might think. Right. Because the salary was pretty even going out Butler. He does of a big capital next year thirty point seven million dollars making twenty this year so increase that by one point five, that's how you get his capital punishment. But it is short of the max they could be making which was projected for thirty two point seven right now. So they get a little bit of extra room there. Once they give him what sounds like a a likely max extension, depending on how things go, but this is done with the intention of keeping him. So, but then you're subtracting shards, and you're subtracting Covington. So you that opens a bull mortars? Remember, they were pretty much right at about thirty seven million for next year to fit someone in. Potentially who was the ten plus your max, but they weren't really being talked about in that way as a destination those one of the trade, but they still have nineteen point six million depending on what the draft pick situation looks like next year. Of course, they could still get the number one overall pick the let's bury unlikely with that Sacramento. A pick. They traded Twenty-nine thirtieth of two Boston. So and then they even have some salary that we could talk about in a little bit. It's probably not the lead here. But there are ways they could maybe even get up. Do you know close to thirty million cats, but he's to add a around the big three now of Embiid Butler end Simmons anything else to Adam financials. You wanna talk about how it's gonna work for Philly on the cork briefly on the financial is the other massive consideration for that nineteen to twenty million which could expand with other trades cap spaces that that money if they signed somebody to a multi year deal will make this team very expensive and time because Jimmy Butler. You know, he's gonna get paid. Joel Embiid is already making about thirty million a year. He that contract. He's already on that contract. And then Ben Simmons will get his raise in twenty twenty. So if they chose to go in that aggressive tact of paying somebody. Let's say twenty million a year for four years. Let's say let's say that's where they went. Well that team's gonna get that's probably three years in the luxury tax. I mean, unless they make other moves at some point after that to clear money, I'm not saying that's a good thing or bad thing. I'm not saying whether ownership is willing to do that. But it is a consideration. And that is why ownership for Philly has a big decision to make in the summer of two thousand nineteen because they need to be looking in the crystal ball for the next four years in saying, what are we comfortable paying because if you either lie to yourselves or make the Ron decision it meaningfully impacts where the team is the and Butler would be eligible for up to five years one hundred ninety million which would have been making over forty three million in the fifth year of that deal well into his mid thirties. Of. But let's talk about how this is gonna look right now. I mean, this is really really interesting. You know, they've added Butler, but they've taken away their second best shooter at and we've talked about how this team desperately needs shooting. The one thing that Butler is not as good at as Robert Covington is bombing from Deepa as a spot of strategic Butler can get better in that area. And maybe we will see that from him. But you know, that's not what he likes to do. He likes to eyeso-. He likes to handle in pick and roll and Philly desperately needed that as well. Right. I mean, it's kind of interesting when you have a team with all these on shooters to also need creation of which Butler provides and certainly Butler's the best guy available on the market for that. Hopefully with that room exception on the market or maybe with additional trades. They can fill in a some more shooting around these guys it's still have Rettig as well. It's gonna be very hard again. Like Brett Brown is going to really have is work cut out for now finding an offense where you can give enough. Space to Butler enough space to impede. I mean, presumably beads could be setting a screen role for Butler. And then what the hell do you do is Simmons a in those sets having him be off the ball? So there's a a lot to look at here into the how this offense is gonna function despite being, you know, clearly, one of the most talented teams in the NBA. Now, this will be a massive hole. Some of the parts question last year Jimmy Butler, shot thirty nine percent on his catching she'd threes, but he only tempted to them game compared to one point five pull up threes and our team's going to respect him. How much are they going to stay off at you said, you can't aren't going to be that many actions that involve all three of them. It's hard to pull that off. And so what happens with the way the team defenses are guy. This might not be as much of a regular season problem because most of the time opponents don't have game plans to demean other than basic stuff of leave this guy open or something like that. But in the playoffs. They sure do and you get Jimmy Butler to compete in the. Playoffs. You don't get him to win a couple of extra regular season games. And so this you talked about how this makes life for Brown a lot harder. And I fully agree with you. It also makes life on Elton brand slash Brett Brown, depending on how people see that dynamic a lot harder shit because now they're looking for shooting. But they're also ideally looking for shooting that is not tiny that that can be a part of what could be a really dynamic defense. Yeah. And they do get better defensively here. Jimmy Butler is has quicker feet than Robert Covington. He may actually not be quite as Covington as one of the best of the NBA from the weak position at digging down from the wing and getting his hands in on drivers and post players, but Butler still it is a very solid as a help defender as while. He's got the strength. I mean us there between Simmons and Butler. I mean because Covington really struggled to guard one on one in last year's playoffs in particular. But now between Simmons at Butler. I mean, you there's no team especially because the Sixers out see them doing a ton of switching. Thing with Embiid on the floor of the you know, and they're probably gonna need to play Roddick even more now of en- sham it, you know, those guys are not going to be as good switches. They could have some lineups though, be pretty good switching, but you know, 'cause they throw Wilson Chandler in there as well. But I think whoever the two best threats are on the other team just throw Simmons and Butler on them. And you're looking pretty darn good there. And then you've got Embiid backing them up. I mean, that's going to be nearly impenetrable you'd think am to if they have good communication. They might switch some to an and then be able to just talk Rettig or sham it out of those matchups as well. If they need to of Wilson Chandler now, though Dame becomes a key key piece for this team as he returned from his hamstring injury. We had this is something. Kevin pelton noted in his breakdown this the Sixers right now because they have fourteen guys on roster after the trade two of those guys patent and desire Smith or hurt then cork Mazdas as out of the rotation. Joan Bolden isn't really playing they really have ten. Possible guys depending on who is healthy and who's not and they traded to starters for one starter. So that opens up certainly red can get some of those minutes, but he's not going to get many more. That opens up something for probably wasn't Chandler. Maybe a little bit more for Shamet. And that's a challenge. It wasn't Chandler is still on a minute restriction. And that does put some heat on buyout guys. They could use that trade exception. They created against somebody though, not not obviously somebody who makes a ton of money. And also, the idea of potentially moving some of the pieces that they have in something else that could be, you know, Mike mascola to me is an as EMMY certainly you have a need for right now. But I think the need of their need for him. Right. And like, yeah. Now like their bench really just doesn't work at all anymore. I mean, like McConnell enfolds, you know, McConnell is a good player, but he was already out of the rotation of false. You know, they're already struggling to get enough spacing for folks with Covington out there. Now that's gonna compact even more with Butler and Foltz will gum up the works even more when Butler's is trying to play and certainly can't play. Foltz Simmons and Butler together and expected to do. Well, you know, maybe you could do that. If you're gonna just play Moskal at center when beat out of the game, you could find a way to go there. But so now, I mean McConnell and volts are kinda Joe almost unplayable themselves. So like, you got like six players on this team that really like fit together and can work then, you know, they're the inevitable injury concerns as well. Presumably this will also mean a meaningful reduction in Jimmy Butler is minutes, maybe a reduction to the reported agreement of thirty two minutes a game something that Butler only did twice the season one. I think both games were blowouts. He played forty one last night against Sacramento, and let lead to some colorful quotes to Sam amick of the athletic. And yet he said we have afforded one minutes is too much. We have fourteen other fucking guys on the roster. That's ed. Honestly, we could just refer to those guys as the other fucking guys that it honestly based on FaceTime Jimmy's approach and everything else. And no he loves those guys. He's been out there fighting for those guys he has been fight fighting for those guys. So yeah, I mean, I think that I and so I'd from Phillies perspective, I wanna do one big picture thing quickly because because you talked about a little bit different. But I think this is important. They not only did they walk out of last offseason with nothing long-term. I mean, obviously JJ Redick is a really good consolation prize for what this team needed. But one way of thinking about this trade is that last year they did that this year. There were a lot of there are a lot of guys in two thousand nineteen that would have made a ton of sense for the Sixers, quite Leonard would be awesome. They're klay. Thompson is almost perfect and Durant would have been nasty, obviously, just like he is almost everywhere. But there's a, and I think Butler is a meaningfully worst fit than all of those guys. But there is a really significant chance that they were going to walk away with. None of them. And if they believe which is an interesting argument if they believed that Jimmy Butler was not going to go there if they didn't trade for him. Well, then they kind of they they raised their floor. Even if they arguably lowered their ceiling, and I mean, I would have rather seen Jimmy bell or play with Sharon's Covington or both. I mean that would mean you have to manage the minutes to keep those guys happy, but they have twenty million to theoretically work with or they have Rettig and the room mid level or sorry. The non taxpayer mid level, if they wanted to go that route whatever, and I understand that rationale because I mean Klay seems pretty locked in with the warriors Durant and Philly never really seemed like a fit. So then you're putting a lot on the train. And I don't know that I would do that. I don't have enough. I don't have the Intel. I haven't talked to Kwai and his uncle or anything else. But that's a lot of eggs be putting in that basket. And it seems pretty clear based on the structure of this that the possibility or certainty of a fifth year was important to Butler because that's what really had to be the impetus for working hard to. Get a trade during the season. Otherwise, you could just sign with somebody else and piggybacking on what you are saying there, you might say, oh, man. Like, this is this isn't the greatest deal like it. You know, because we are now it's nearly fate accompli that we're going to have to pay Butler this five year hundred ninety million dollar contracts, and that's going to be a bad contract. That's probably true. By the end of the second will almost certainly. But let's say they struck out on Klay Thompson and quiet Leonard Chris Middleton, probably as well. So now, you have to use that cafe does you mentioned yo Ben Simmons would start getting expensive the summer after. So your cat face goes away. So now you're comparing giving Jimmy Butler that five year deal, which is a big deal on it's going to go a little bit longer. But would you rather give Jimmy Butler that five year deal? In overpay him for a guy who's gonna be a if not a superstar star level a player at least at the beginning of the contract. Or would you rather overpay for, you know, guys along the level of of some of these bad contracts that we saw in twenty sixty or you know, an auto porter level a guy. Or something like that. You know, there's a lot of space around the league in. So it's unlikely that whomever they signed that wasn't a star. And I agree with you. I think it's the tea leaves looked pretty unlikely that a star was coming. And you know, I'm sure some of the Intel they had confirmed that so it's probable to me that Butler's contract, even if it does end up being a bad contract ends up being better than any other long term contract that they might have given out next. That's a really good point. And you talked about the time line here. I think that's a good thing to mention as well if Butler gets a five year deal that will extend his deal one year beyond Joel Embiid and something I talked about in my piece for the athletes is that if Butler makes some concessions off of a full max five year deal. And remember he's not eligible for a designated veteran thing because of the first trait not the second trade, and that could how they do that will be really fascinating because they could basically they could either cut the per season amounts or something like that. Or they could do some. Sort of non full guarantee on that final season. And that could be clarifying for what the Sixers you're thinking and everything else. So it we're still a long way out from that. And it is technically possible for either side to just walk away from this in July of twenty nineteen and just say, you know, maybe if glide says let yes, you could theoretically just say hit the road Jimmy we're gonna take instead or Jimmy could say I wanna play for the Lakers or something else. Like those things are possible. I don't think anybody expects that. Now, this is kind of like, the Chris Paul rockets situation redux where you technically you can't agree to a deal, but everybody kind of thinks something's going to get done. And. Yeah, I mean, the Sixers team is is absolutely fascinating. And now, you have a brand new general manager and coach you probably has a significant voice in the process trying to figure out how to do everything else that this team needs and Philly. You know, they not only do they have intriguing young talent. But they also have draft resources. They have all their own picks to have the fringe chance of getting Sacramento's. They have that Miami unprotected pick in believe that's twenty twenty one. And they have a bunch of extra seconds. Started is twenty twenty two twenty one twenty two. So is the good draft. And so they and they and they have a bunch of extra seconds from various things. And so how do they handle this? Do they want to try to get guys in? Now, do they get guys in now that have longer contracts? Do they wait and just say, hey, would see what we can do with that twenty maybe plus million in next summer it? This is a now a really really hard general managing job. But it has stakes and that's that's what you get into it. For like, I I'm excited to see where they go with this this for for filling Minnesota, I mean, let's let's just a value. It it just kind of on the like the the asset for us at basis an EMMY we can transition into the wolves after that. Actually, we'll give you the answer to that. Right after this. So you know, we're all about the stats here on dunked on. 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But I think the Sixers could have a good defense either. I'm not really concerned about that. My this is this is the type of deal that makes a team easier for the best squads to defend, and I'm not sure that what they can add around Butler Simmons and Embiid defects that like I said when we did the time to panic with Ethan the my biggest concern with them was the incongruity of their three most high profile players and now directly. Replacing Markelle faults with Jimmy Butler, but a lot of those concerns still exists 'cause Jimmy Butler is not going to change the way he plays. Ben Simmons isn't going to change the way he plays. Joel Embiid probably easing in change the way play. So I could be wrong that that the sum is greater than I expected to be. But I think each of these guys takes a little bit away from the others on the offensive end, and you can still build a really good team. But if we're talking like a championship that gets Chuck will. So you say you wouldn't have done this. Let's talk about Covington real quick. I mean, he he to me is like the the the big Julia and it because he was only making ten million for the next three years. He turns twenty eight in December and the three years up to this. When he going to be making around ten million. Remember, he they did that renegotiation in extension that frontloaded his new contracts. They're able to get him for really cheaply Enya. He's worth more than that. Certainly did have a terrible playoffs last year. But he's been better again this year. I mean, he is a guy who's an aggressive shooter. You gotta guard him out there. And he's a outstanding defy. Off the ball and a solid one on the ball know. But he did it. I mean, I think it is worthwhile to note that he did kinda fail in the playoffs last year both the shooting. I think is something that could've come around. But he was you know, they're taking him out of the rotation for TJ McConnell that really defensively he was not good enough as their one on one stopper on the wing. So I think I like I like this trade for Philly because they weren't going anywhere with what they had. I mean, Covington good player value contract. You know, as a second banana wing defender as you can feel pretty good about maybe you know, Simmons could have been the first banana. But I think he's a solid player. But you know, probably one who was in a little bit too big of a role again when we're talking about this rarified air of competing for a championship and Butler is like an a one type wing defender of. And you just you just get more talent on the team. And you can't probably find Robert Covington. Are you could maybe find a player as good as Covington with your twenty million cap space next year, or maybe you could find him in a trade? And then the loss of charge to me doesn't really. Matter. It'll I think us like already could've played a few minutes off the bench at the highest level in the playoffs. But just too bad defensively. And you know, he's got some ability to get into the post and his shooting has gotten better though, it waxes and wanes and he's a good interior passer. But we'd just that's too many weaknesses to really play big minutes at the highest level in the conference finals or a final situation in today's NBA. So I don't really think it's that. I mean, he was worth something. So there's an opportunity cost obviously to dealing him. But you know, I'm not like, oh, man. Like, they're they just gave up this great path that they had with Dario Shara in the starting lineup. So I- talent for talent. They did pretty well here. Sorry cats are chasing each other as it was a little distracting well yet. But then unlike you, well, unlike you, I think that the opportunity cost of losing a small amount of cap space is not as big of a deal as as some might. Thank you know, they they are losing some in this but not a ton. Sharon. Yeah. I mean, you could argue that his biggest value is a mix in like as an as an a supplement. It to a deal for a different player. But I don't know who that different player was like, I I'm not sitting there going. Oh, Philly should have signed. Incidentally, Josh Richardson would have been a really interesting player for Philly to add not saying he's necessarily better than Jimmy Butler. But he is on a a more fr team friendly contract than Butler is getting but that's just off the top mad. I'm just thinking different guys. So from Phillies perspective. Yeah. I mean, they they'll have to find replacements, but the margin between the guys they lost and those replacements is less material than the margin between Butler and them because you can't find Jimmy Butler is very often and sharks. I mean, he had a wonderful season last year. But if that if that was not Representative especially from shooting perspective of what he is any steps back there make him so much less playable against the best teams. And he was even then it was getting a little bit dicey. So I think that's a fair point. And I think that's a good transition into Minnesota hot. I I wanna say in Philly. I go ahead. They certainly increase their ceiling with this move a addict. They Ben Simmons the idea of him like getting a jump shot significantly changing his game. Didn't look that likely to be Marco Foltz was supposed to be the upside for this team. If that was going to happen. It's years from now to where he actually is gonna help you win at a championship level. So for the foreseeable future. Even with Joel Embiid playing at a level. I think beyond any of us expected so far this year MEES been great. But even then, you know, they didn't look awesome. They had a nice win against the Pacers the other night. But it seemed clear to me. I've said this many times that they're at a point where okay, you know, you could win fifty games. You look great against two thirds of the league. And then they just don't match up well against the best teams in the NBA. You're Toronto's your Boston's in the east in particular. But so now, the challenge becomes how do you build Iran? This core of Butler Embiid and Simmons we mentioned that the fit between those three is not ideal. It's a lot of talent it's ideal defensively. That's for sure. And so they. Have to obviously get some shooting and hopefully someone with a little size who that shooting. They've got JJ Rettig right now if he comes back, you'll probably eat into some of the cap spaces that they would hope to use next summer know who knows how he ends things whether he wants to this year, whether he wants to stay there. What is value is on the market at cetera? But really to me, and they still have that twenty twenty one Miami pick as well to me, the time to go all in is very soon here and Markelle Foltz is would be making almost ten million next year. He is almost certainly not going to give them ten million dollars of production next year. He is not going to have the ball in his hands. He's not going to get babied anymore now that they have Jimmy Butler on this team. And so his value is only going to go down. Now, he's got probably not gonna look very good. When he's out there. We're not gonna see things like Brett Brown going to a lineup with all other shooters on the floor. No Embiid, just to try to help Foltz and Simmons. Coexist. It's the baby is over for Marco Foltz with this move. And so to me they need to trade him post taste if he has any value at all it's only gonna go down from here on out. And if specially if they can either get a guy who fits is on a long term contract with them who can be another starter if or just gets back someone who's an expiring contract. So they could use that SpaceX summer and can help them this year as well. A it depends. Who knows what false was value is around the league. I I there's got to be teams out there who are still interested. But I probably wouldn't be as a GM at this point, you know, unless I'm really bad team that just wants to try and get some talent. They also have the all of their picks going forward. They have that twenty twenty one pick. I think the time is and also you gotta hope that goes well here with Butler. So that he'll wanna stay. I mean, I think that they've if it's disaster if they get swept in the second round, you know, Jimmy gonna wanna come back. You know, I'm sure he's they said all all the right things. But basically their agreement was all right. You know, if things go, well, we'll bring you back will make those contract offer. So there's no guarantee things go. Well, I think between now and the trade. Line the need to move faults. Ain't they probably your money wanna throw in a future pick find an hopefully find another long-term starter who because there aren't that many of those guys around who can defend and shoot the ball and don't necessarily need the ball. You know, maybe a stretch big obviously would be someone who would help a lot as well. You know that that might be more of a regular season type of player like a Ryan Anderson and the buyout market or something like that. But yet, that's I mean, they just have to move votes. I think they need to move him now because his values only gonna go down, you know, December fifteenth is when all the guys who signed not all but mostly guys who signed last summer, it can be traded, and especially because they're going to be in a battle for seating as well. Just now if Butler is going to be a main part of the seem like unless Foltz like he can't be always pretty dynamic and his jumper is passable bulldog. He's got to be a really good jump shooter. Again, he so far away from being that got a trade him almost immediately. I think and they might not even need a true backup point guard ball Hamburg, type depending on how they're going to structure and not. I'm beat as much but Butler and Simmons's minutes. I mean, if you those guys like having the ball in their hands a lot you could go for more of a complementary off guard type guy, and it would work reasonably well. Also, if they need that ball or the margin between Foltz and McConnell isn't as important. And now, you think about that nine million or ten million and cap space for next year that becomes really important too. So and if what you need is a backup point guard. You don't need to pay nine million for that guy, especially if he doesn't fit particularly well with where you're gully. So I and there's a parallel for me, obviously is more intriguing talent than those guys were at the time with what happened with Nerlens Noel and Jalil Okeafor, which was the Sixers. It sounds like weren't happy with the offers. They were getting so they held onto those guys until the offers. They were getting basically went to zero and at certain points, you just have to grin and bear it and say this is the best we're going to do and I'm not saying that's necessarily in the next month. But it is before the February before the February trade deadline because as you said, it's not going that way. And yes, there are a bunch of teams that are going to have cap space next summer and. And I think that if it's that unless this season goes horribly, somebody might just roll the dice on that. But again, that's not getting value back. That's unloading in for nothing. So I don't know what offers on the table. But I agree with you that they should be pushing incredibly hard, especially when you consider the present value that they need to convince Butler and that this year is a year that they are competitive. And I'm not sure what that trait is. I haven't had time to look into that yet. We're recording us an hour after the trade came down the pipe here. But that's something that we will probably think about a lot in the future of a bunch more to get to first this from trip actions, which takes the pain out of corporate travel management, the complete solution that helps businesses save and keeps employees happy. I wonder if a all these NBA teams could benefit from trip actions to fly all these players around a after the trade troop actors of the first travel management platform, designed from the ground up with the road warrior in mind. So I guess this was not designed for the Minnesota Timberwolves which invalid insidious went. Oh and five on that road trip up. 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You did you take this a good trade for Philly? I think it's a good trick. I it's not a no brainer. But I think it's a it's a good trade in and unnecessary. Trees. I think it's a worth a gamble. So. Yeah, I don't love it. But it. It. I mean at a certain point, you have to do something, and you're comparing this to a lot of imperfect options because that's just where this team is. And so, yeah, I mean, would it be better to have Klay Thompson jerk where they gonna get Klay Thompson? No. So that's sort of that that's kind of where I ended up with it. And it's always hard because you never know what other offers on the table. And so of another team was undervaluing their asset or something like that. Then maybe gets where but in the abstract, we I think they did a pretty good job, and will and I'll say this, you know, Philly. This is a unique opportunity for them because they had good players usually so a team trading someone like Butler is like saying about it and once future assets, but ran the soda was not saying about it. And so this was one that Philly actually could get into with the players that they had. Whereas it probably wouldn't have been as attractive for another team. That was interested in making a trade. So yeah, I think that and we say, you know, Philly like, they're just young, you know, Simmons impede like these guys are. Still in their early twenties. And we think of them as having all these assets, but as Bader as detailed they really didn't have that many assets left anymore. And so they were had a lot fewer options going forward as a way to get to being a top level team. And that's really what this is about. Right. I mean, they could win fifty games the next four years with Simmons and Embiid and losing the second run every year. But that's not what the team should be trying for an so as far as just getting more this level a town on the team getting better potentially getting into championship contention. And we'll see how good this actually makes them. I think they could be right there with Toronto and Boston if they can get some more guys around Butler Simmons and Embiid as of right now. I don't think they're they're still a, but like the status quo seemed like, oh, yeah. You know, they're young team. They're just developing. There's no rush. Like, nah. Actually, they're kind of always because their cap space was about to go away. And they just didn't really have many other options for taking the next up, especially when it looked like, you know, Foltz and Simmons jump. Just we're never going to develop. Right. And while Simmons can become a much better player a much better player with his same flaw isn't like it's still valuable, but it's not as valuable it. I don't know how to necessarily convey this. But there's a there's a ceiling on what he can do if the jump shot never comes. That's is still really high. It's an all NBA player. But it's not the when we're talking about the play offs and potential championship team. It's something a little bit different. And so I'm happy that they didn't bet on that reform because it probably wasn't coming. Are you ready for the transition because I have a way to add to frame this? I think you might find interesting. Absolutely. Okay. Would you rather have Zach LeVine Chris done and the upgrade from the sixteenth pick to the number seven pick or Robert Covington Dario Sharokh that second round pick. I guess if that matters, an let's even exclude for the sake of this one year of Jimmy Butler, which of those would you rather have why don't think you can exclude one year Jimmy Butler? They made the playoffs. No, no. What what we know? What I'm saying is I would still take Covington and charge and the pick even without the year of Jimmy Butler. Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure about that especially because playing a lot better. So that that is that is a consideration. So he did get at eight hundred marketing would have been like a really good fit with what they were trying to do too. No, I think it's a probably would have had that package, but they also did get a year of Butler. So you know, and they made the playoffs and all of those sorts of things so that was one frame unlimited. But then the other part is this this wolves team that is now created is so bizarre because they have all these players that I think makes sense on a good team. But I'm not sure they have the structure on the players on top of them to do it. I mean, no that's the idea behind Townsend. Wiggins also I'm not sure sibito is the right coach to maximize team around this conceit. But this is the second time in the last few months that a star pending free agent at a position evalu- has been traded without that team receiving what I would consider premium asset and in both circumstances the front office is in play went for more of a immediate can con con contributions game, though, these guys are younger than you know, than there is an overall, and I think in both cases. Even if the offers were weaker than expected in terms of more long term stuff that it's just they they created something that's a little bit bizarre. Yeah. Let's just take a look well since we were talking about it, actually. I mean, do you want to just say like, do you think those good trade for the wolves at this point? I I don't love it for them. I really don't because charge and Covington are exactly the type of players that. I guess you could say, oh, they could repackages guys that they could do something else that are more additives to make a trade more interesting than centerpieces of really getting value back the guy I was thinking about with this was like Danny green while they have way better contracts long-term than Danny green. He made that trade. Oh, I like these guys when they get traded a lot more for the acquiring team than than the team that is getting something back usually because they're just undervalued around the league. And so I love Robert Covington. I don't think other teams do and so as much as I do, and there's the wolves are getting the benefit of not having to given the balloon payment his contract is very reasonable. And so maybe they have him around. I think he helps make their team better. Yeah. But what value is him making their team better providing diminish soda in a loaded Western Conference. I mean, it makes it more likely that they can fight towards the shirt. Absolutely. And charged is kind of the same type of guy. But I don't know really if that if what they're bringing is that valuable, and as time progresses, those contracts get less high will just because you get less team friendly years on it, you know, each year that passes you get charges making basically nothing for this year next. So I don't love this deal for Minnesota. Because I think two or three years from now Lee walking away from being like, well, okay. That's what they got for Jimmy Butler. I mean, I think this deal could kind of get them back into like, you know, lower end playoff contention. If they you're the Covington can be not as good as Butler defense. Leave a pretty good. I think he actually helps the offense of fit a lot more. You'll see whether Sharon is going gonna start at the four over touch Gibson or not. They also already have tala vers kinda does similar things. We charge will be even more wasted. In terms of like. Kind of supplementary playmaking and post up ability on switches than he would have been. But you know, Gibson is out at our contracts Oliver's old so sharks could be the power Ford of the future here. A Anna Deke is a solid fit offensively with towns of towns at thirty nine last night. Hopefully, he will get back to playing well again offensively Wiggins who actually now miss time again with that quad injury, which you know, is starting to sound like it could be one of these chronic quad injuries. The way we've seen from a guys like Selden that obviously coli hopefully, that's not the case. But you know, I mean now the pressure is back injury Wiggins to evolve into being a very good player again, which, you know, seems unlikely these days of, but that was always going to be the case that there are very reliant on him becoming good. So I think this is fun for them. They can kind of hang around the four nine already this year. So making the playoffs just because you're coming from that five win deficit is looking a lot less likely. But you know, these guys are actually under contract for a while. We'll see what. Harrach ends up essentially getting extended for we'll see whether Tibbs is still round next year. But this is a I mean, at least they have four starters under contract to your for wild going forward and all guys who played at a solid level. So, you know, it's not it's not terrible. I mean, this is probably once Josh Richardson goal or trade became unrealistic because he started playing so well this year. I mean, they're probably gonna rue not taking that deal the involved Richardson and a first round pick for Miami. And you know, they would have probably had some negative consequences in terms of having to take on salary there too. But you know, I think they're going to be unhappy that they didn't take that. Because Richardson's looking like eat taking the next step for sure offensively. And he's he's fabulous. Eventually is probably better than Covington is, but you know, this is okay. It's probably better than the four first round picks from Houston because those are probably be pretty heavily protected, and then, you know, having to take on Chris. And Brandon Knight his bed contract is while you know, wasn't really gonna look. Good. At least this way. They're also their tax concerns going forward to have been alleviated because they brought back Butler via pre expensive team. So I think they did find here. I'm not sure your end at this point know because of the the trade offer was made so late at this point or the trade demand made so late. I'm not sure that there was really a better offer out there for them. You know, I think it was better than the Houston. One probably do agree with me on that. Or do you think that Houston offered have been better to mid granted that we don't know the protections, but assuming they weren't like. Protection is is entirely at like. Yeah. If it was four in the late picks were lightly protected than I would rather have Houston's offered. But if they weren't then the I because because you can't get that. But I wonder like long-term what Minnesota's really gonna get out of this. I I like both Covington in charge. But it feels like this is more kind of like, we're the clippers are this year where it's like, oh, you're you're interesting team your competitive team, but the clippers this is a holding pattern to something else that they hope will be a lot better actually, the clippers are loser of this deal. If it looks like Jimmy Butler is going to sign with Philly because then that's one guy that can't sign with the clippers. But they are eat there a fine team. You know, there's there's nothing that I actually might enjoy watching the wolves now more, but they're gonna put a lot of playmate. Like creation on Wiggins his shoulders, Jeff t when he gets back is going to have a complicated role with this team. And it'll be kind of maybe more traditional in a sense. But that doesn't necessarily make them better. And. Than the ridiculous team. They were with the ridiculous chemistry that they had to start your knowing whether Jimmy Butler is gonna play every game. And you know, this ridiculous media circus, I at least settled so they're going to be it made them better for this year. And I think those those part of why Butler finally the fed that the wolves were losing finally forced to two full the the trigger because he's like, hey, you know, what would if we're four nine we could before nine and trade Butler and get something back here. So yeah, I mean, I I still like I just don't know what a better offer was that was out there, the clippers weren't willing to put in Tobias Harris, which is a little curious to me of that they wouldn't do that. But compared to Jimmy Butler. But if that were the case, your I'm just not sure what else there was out there regardless of and even you know, when you say, hey, we would rather go for more future assets. Like who was going to trade for Butler this year, those going to give up a lot of future assets where he would want like a team like the only teams that have that at this point. You know, he's not going go Boston. So in terms of like good teams that have future assets aren't really any of those out there anymore. So, you know, he's not gonna go to Phoenix or something team that has some future assets that they can give back because he's just gonna leave. Their Brooklyn didn't seem interested. The Knicks didn't seem interested in trading firm at this point. Leo, those the don't if you just rations this season. So I mean, I just I'm not sure what else was left. I mean, I think what they're really gonna Rouge just blowing it on the Miami. Yeah. And also potentially not taking depending on the reporting of the circumstance the early discussions like in August, or whenever that was seriously because there might have been better offers, then you know, if if they had reconsidered, it's basically it kind of sounds like you said something like I'm not coming back, and they didn't treat that as a trade demand because that's not a trend. Demand. Bus the way you and I would interpret that is a trade demand because we're not Tom Ditto. And we're not trying to win as much this year. Just they he it seems like he treated that more as input rather than a trade demand. And you know, maybe there would have been more offers their teams. Would be less settled in who they have and everything like that. And you're right that Minnesota was put in an unfortunate circumstance in terms of timing by some of the teams that are aspirational about their cap space not being good enough this year where he's providing oughta value. I floated the idea of Brooklyn Brooklyn was making mistake not going aggressively after Jimmy Butler, not knowing the terms of deal just because he's probably better than what they're going to do with their cap space over the next couple years. So I end the Knicks are in this weird circumstance where he would even if they weren't getting much present value from him. He might be better than what they get with their cap space, depending on how they're feeling about Katie and everything else. So I think you're going to have a lot of teams that ended up making a mistake here because they're thinking they're going to get something better. And that's what makes the Philly part of this. So compelling is that they made the opposite Bette, and yeah, it's it's fascinating. And so something I wanted to ask you, and this isn't the way necessarily do evaluate this trend from Minnesota standpoint. But do you explain not knowing a lot of things about the Western Conference? Do you expect Minnesota to make the playoffs in one of the next two years? In their defense is probably still gonna suck. So, you know, a lot of it depends on the development of Wiggins, which I'm not high on. But Karl towns could be such a good offensive player that you know, he gets you to being a good offense. I think they'll be right around a five hundred team your I'm not a believer in tubes. As a coach if he gets fired, and they get someone else in there who's a a little bit better. At least at least you can really maximize the offense for the same. Because it seems like really nobody is going to be able to maximize the team's defense at this point. So I think it's you know, they got about fifty fifty shot this year. I mean if they were just starting this season. Like everyone was starting the season. They had this this lineup in weren't already four nine you give them okay shot of making it. So an enemy to to do that is still they're still better off than they were before the mid the Butler trade if they're going to be a little over five hundred. So we'll see how it works out. I mean, there is the risk that Covington and charge looked a lot better in Philly than they're gonna look in Minnesota because you know, Brett bronze offense really help. Them a lot more than Tump the pretty stayed approach and Covington, you know, he's a pretty solid defender. But you know, he's not gonna be able to do it all on his own. And so, you know, you looked really good at Vilis system yet. Embiid beyond me at Simmons Arana as opposed to he's going to just be the only guy playing defense and Minnesota now. So those guys could look a lot worse once there was one thing. I want to mention here there's reporting that the trade call and this isn't going to happen until Monday, if I were advising I would tell them to try to find partners to move Covington in charge right now. I would seriously go after that. Because there's a serious downside risk to those guys. Just looking worse. Well, what are you getting already said that there? I don't know. But but because I'm sure there are people who didn't expect that those players were on the Mark. And so if you if you basically if you think their value now is better than their value will be a year or two from now, I consider it. I'm not saying, I would I would absolutely trade them. But I would listen out. Listen pretty quickly because you can turn them around before the trade co happens without a prop. I guess I mean Robert Covington is about as good of a fit as you could possibly hope for those. As the three D type of wingham. That's they've desperately needed it in Minnesota for the last God who God knows how long they desperately need to back. Kevin Garnett your own if they've ever had one on this team and charged. You know, I'm just not sure his values that high. You know, I don't think he you. I don't know if you could even get a first round pick for him. An and again, I I think he wants to see how this all works out in terms of the fits. I don't really know. What I'm saying is what I'm saying is there's an opportunity cost to finding out how it works out because if it works out poorly, then maybe you're walking out of this trade with very very little. Yeah. Well, I mean, you're getting the the good news is like new those guys make that much money. Also, Jerry Bela's in the straight. He's there's a thought that he's gonna get waived which wouldn't surprise me. And hey, good job by Philly holding onto him instead of waving him 'cause they're able to use him as as salary. They wouldn't have had anyone else that would have to treat somebody good. So that actually actually worked out that they held onto Bilas yet because we were saying, hey, why dead? And and that's that's. Kind of the argument I made against the Knicks waving Noah is that you never really know what you're going to need in terms of making something happen. And it even if there are an imperfect value they were he was pretty good, Phil. And I mean, yeah, it would probably bend something like miscall uncork. Mas Miskel is gonna help them a lot more than shared Bayless. So I guess it would have been good scholar. He was he would have been the other the other potential option here. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really interested to see how tubes uses these guys and to see what kind of spacing they have. And know, I don't think it's going to they're going to punch kind of below their wait a bit. The supreme talented team still a team that certainly has as much talent especially on offense. As a lot of these other teams in the west. So I do think there's a possibility they could play while. I'm just I'm not a believer that Tibbs as the guy to really maximize what they can do offense. And I think we've already established that these guys aren't going stop anybody. And losing losing Jimmy Butler is an adding charge and Covington it's probably a downgrade defensively, although they did defend okay. When Butler is on the floor last. Year. They're all actually trying reasonably hard. Well, neither downgrade is that they might not play Taj Gibson as much and so yeah that could that would hurt them. Although I don't know how much Taj really helps as a I've always felt like Todd should be playing backup center for them. Yeah. That's true that under a nurse some cool concepts that they could go with with the statement. I mean, if they played towns Wigan towns Wiggins Covington Charlotte, and maybe a bigger guy and tried to switch a little bit more. I mean, maybe that would work. I don't think it would. But it's worth trying and then you could use tasha the second unit center something I mean, actually what I heard of is shot. I'm scared of his he's gonna play Dario at the three and Covington at the two and then still play. Well with Wiggins out a especially, you know, we'll see how long were that quote, injure goes did go running out of steam here wanted to send this before we wrap up. I wrote a CBA Centric piece for the athletic about this. And I mean, you've got my basketball analysis here. So talking about kind of the choices that Philly is has to make and we're Minnesota's books are and all that kind of stuff. So you can read that at the clinic or subscribe at the dot com slash campus. Our thanks for listening, a programming note, this is gonna be Sunday nights episodes. So we'll be back on Monday night. Instead to do some of our more usual pro went long enough on this. This is just we wanted to get this out to guys right away. But don't forget that like our mission to give great basketball analysis navy federal has a mission to put members I by making their financial goals. 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