Peggy Orenstein

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The oil can welcome. Welcome to armchair expert experts on expert. I am maximus mouse and joined by minimus miles minister mass. What are you? You're miniature MAXIMUS MILES. Maximum miniature mouth. Oh you are okay. Okay Yeah you twist it. Don't get you don't get it twisted and now you're okay so you're gonNA maximum smile. Minima smiles what is it. Is I minimum mouse voice at your mouse voice? Hey we have an exciting guests today. Peggy Ornstein a contributing writer for the New York Times magazine and a far. Peggy has also written for such publications as the Los Angeles Times The Washington Post the Atlantic and The New Yorker and has contributed commentaries to NPR's all things considered the Columbia journalism review named Peggy. One of its forty women who changed the media business in the past forty years. Her books include the New York Times bestseller girls and sex. Cinderella ate my daughter waiting for daisy and her new book boys and sex young men on hookups love porn consent and navigating the new masculinity. Please enjoy this delicious conversation with Peggy. Warriors are supported by stamps. Dot Com poses rates have gone up again thankfully stamps dot com. Eases the pain with big discounts off the post office retail rates? Stamps DOT COM. You can save five cents off of every first class stamp and up to forty percents off shipping rates. That kind of savings really adds up especially for small business now. We used DOT COM here at armchair expert to send our merchandise and in his save a bundle plus stamps. Dot Com is completely online. Which saves you time no more inconvenient trips to the post office stamps DOT COM has been a sponsor of this show. Since the early days helping us get our mail out and save money now they bring all the services of the. Us Postal Service right to your computer whether you're a small office. 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Dax Ten and use Kodak's ten. He's Peggy yes. Welcome thank you. Thank you for Traveling today to come see us from Berkeley well. It wasn't very far farther than most of our guests are coming from. Yeah also yeah the flights fine. What are we looking at forty five minutes or something fifty three? I believe. Okay you go into Burbank. I didn't did okay. I'm smart that way. It's not terrible driving and then find out of Burbank. Takes all of twelve minutes exactly now. Where are you from originally Minneapolis? You Are we love people for Minneapolis. We're going to stereotype right now We Know Peter. Krause we played brothers on TV and he delivered on the serotype immediately. I'm accused really are and then we went and we did a live show last summer in. Minneapolis and again. It was the nicest there was just a shiny nice. It's it's real. What did your mom and Dad do in Minneapolis? Dad was a lawyer and my mom was a teacher and then a stay at home. Mom and what kind of law did do in. Now I spent many many years sitting at the kitchen table staring out the window. Not Listening to that something riveting intellectual properties or something over the Supreme Court case that change bankruptcy law. My Daddy did and he's still. He's ninety three so he's still around. That's so impressive. We all went. Oh you win. We all went to watch him. Watched him why we've found that my brothers are also lawyers okay. How many brothers have two older brothers? Okay now do you have little sister syndrome? Yes okay yes yeah I think of my what my my poor sister. I have a younger sister and I also have an older brother in. Yeah just growing up in a house with two boys in those being the people you're emulating it's quite a. It's very specific path. Yeah I always say this about. I think when boys have sisters older sister says yes I agree difference in. Who has that dynamic seems to predictably make the best boys really do think it does honest. I really do. It's healthy to be around female early in your life. Who can kick your ass? I think that's probably a permanent sister. Relate to just about like all guys like their sister right well in your new book you had really kind of. I can't even imagine you expected the level of access or the level of openness that. These young men were giving you right. Wasn't that come as a shock to you. It really did. I mean I really. I was really hesitant to do a book on boys. I've been writing about girls for a long time for like twenty five years. Right and part of my hesitance was that I basically have like whole transcripts of uh-huh. Yeah we're going to college and what did you major. I went to Oberlin. Ohio and we weren't allowed to major in anything practical point okay. What you've changed that a little bit English major okay. That's a useful major loss. Well that was the whole thing. I was trying very very hard to avoid going. I want you to pursue that. Yes yes and I mean I think my parents kind of expected that would be a lawyer's wife. Okay maybe go to law school and catch a lawyer husband but my brothers my lovely big brothers who were by that time both either lawyers are in law school sort of ran interference for me. I kind of pictured them like big linebackers not her. I think also that I think that I got through on this kind of weird like sexism worked in my favor and a funny way. Tell me because I think my dad didn't think I was going to really have to make a living. So expectations were low. Yeah and so. They weren't really eighty. They weren't really paying attention. But be you know kind of sneaking through and saying I'm going to be a writer wasn't as threatening. Sure somebody else. Would you know take care of me? Didn't work out that way. It didn't work out that way. So you're dead. Probably grew up in the thirties forties. Yeah right okay. So Yeah His paradigm. For what a woman's going. I don't say that with any. Ill will at all. Oh Yeah Yeah. And when I said I'M GONNA get on a plane out of New York Dad and I'm GonNa be a writer The basic response was. That's a pipe dream and you can't do that okay and I thought Oh yeah. Watch me tough I went. Well now. There's a couple of things there though too because Peter has brought me into what the Minnesota Culture is in. There is a modesty right. There's kind of a celebrated modesty arrogance his bad arrogance is the worse writes in some weird ways to pursue a dream as audacious as I'm going to move to New York and be a writer could be seen as arrogance a little bit right. Yeah I mean there's many different layers there's the gender layers that are happening but also this fear I mean I get that now having a kid and I'm sure you follow the creative path you feel kind of like wow. That was a lot of luck. Also ten years of rejections out. It's just weird to wish ten years of rejection child to be very strong willed and have a very strong vision to be incapable of doing anything else BS and and or really low self esteem and believe deserve this flagellation the modest modest this fantastic writer and she wrote one of the best books on writing and one of the things that she talks about. Is the radio station K. F. K. D. or or k? Fucked trying to write one speakers saying you are the greatest. You're the best. You're the most other saying whoever told you you could pick up a Pencil. Quiet both of those down when you went there. Were you aiming to because you've written for the New York Times for how long ever forever was that? One of your first started when I got to New York. I was a editorial assistance. That's I was below. That was staff which sounds like an infection esquire so I I got a job at esquire. That's a fun place to have started. Yeah yeah it was sort of a little bit? I wish I had thought to write things down so that I could have written. My own devil wears product. I bet so. Okay so your first book in My right to assume that you were probably written articles that have been published magazine editor. I worked at different magazines. And then I was. You know worried about writing full-time and what that would mean. And whether he could live and other things so then yet. My first book was called schoolgirls that was about young women self esteem and education and I followed two groups of thirteen year old girls through their thirteenth year to of look at that transition to adolescents. Did you approach it like a journalist or scientists journalists? I mean there's like a couple books that I read when I was in my early. Twenty s One was called loose change by Sarah Davidson and the group and both of those kind of what they did was they like looked at a turning point in history through the lives of individual women And I just I love that idea. I love this idea that you could tell the story of an era through anybody really. I think our stories and that's been kind of the driving thing for me as a journalist. Is that how to our individual stories connect out. There's a neat Zane in screenwriting which is every single scene should encapsulated in a way the entire story. You're telling it should be a FRAC DOLE in that sense that every single sliver of it should be the the thing in its entirety. And that's kind of what you're saying is wells. Oh Yeah what did you find? That was like shocking. What was the tasty thing that you were bringing the light with that book? I really think that was sort of setting me going on thinking about things like that was nineteen ninety four nineteen eighty-four about like. I was looking at the way that the media was affecting girl's body image that was taken. I have a chapter in that book. That's called schoolgirls onslaughts. That was about sort of the perception of what it meant to be slutty. And the way the girls desire was suppressed. And what that whole piece that I think? Later years years years later was kind of the seeds of girls and sex Which is your. That's your most popular book. Yeah I think so. Yeah so new. York Times Bestseller is nice and sex in case you didn't know that's fantastic. Oh Wonderful Number. Seven on the list. Oh that's great but feels wonderful. Now yes so that I feel like I was starting the conversation with myself and maybe with readers looking at the way you know. I sat in on a lot of algebra classes for that book. I did how. How do you get permission to be at a school as an adult? So for that book cash. It was really only time ago. I I feel like I approached principals and principals would go through sort of a process with the PTA and the school board and then the parents ultimately would have to send permission slips. And we'll tickets that I also always change people's names right. I didn't use the name of the district and district. I was in an offer some protection because their kids and that would be wrong. I mean one of the things about the way that I work with all well. Most of my books not all of them. But with that one in with girls and boys the sexist that. I'm not looking for anything in particular. Necessarily I just want to see what life is like in this kind of world that I'm looking at so I just go and hang around what's going to happen right so you know whether it was like in that book that there was a sexual harassment case that suddenly burst forward or like in boys and sex. One of my very favorite scenes in the book is when I'm talking to this boy. I'm skyping with this boy. Who's a senior in college by then and when I met him? He called self a feminist. Fuck boy Break like you already know. That means weirdly enough. We were on a family vacation and Family members who are teenagers. One of the girls told one of the boys that do you know that what they call you in school. They call you a fuck boy and he was so upset by this. He's sweetest boy ever and I thought what can that mean it. When I was growing up I graduated ninety three. So if someone called me a fuck boy that would have been like a Sign of glory or something. I can only imagine but what does it mean. What it meant was that he slept with a lot of Israel's than he could count okay but that he had this kind of veneer of a kind of an and I think he is. He's has sort of egalitarian perspective. But he so. He like would teach consent workshops and he was very scrupulous about all that but that doesn't mean that he didn't take advantage of what was like a super skewed ratio of girls to boys on his campus and manipulate that and treat partners is disposable and there was like this kind of jerky underneath won't and he was starting to recognize that When when we met he was like wrestling with what Manton felt about that and he was like it. Felt really good but maybe it doesn't feel so good year so I personally have this history where I was by all accounts. Horrendously honest with people like I was an open relationship for nine years now and say like I'm in a relationship. I love my girlfriend if you want to do something physical. And that's all that you want the. I'm up for that but you know I just WanNa be dead clear right and I had this whole thing and now obviously. In retrospect people agree to things that they may be. Don't really agree to which is unfortunate right depending on the position like in his campus. You know the girls if they said no to that they weren't GonNa have much of a social life was the truth so if I had talked to him a couple of years before we met he would have said exactly that. This is good. I'm really clear everybody's but he was not going and So we were having this discussion and it had been like you know. He'd been thinking about this for a year and he was in his own. One thing yeah. So the thing really I I can recognize later as regardless of the permission and regardless of the understanding that everyone agreed to I was using them to regulate my feelings. I'm an approval junkie and I'm using them to get approval and feel good about myself for a while so even if that side of the street really is spotless and they agreed and as in writing Baba I know that ultimately I'm just using some underregulated myself steam. Which isn't I'm not crazy proud of so DAX. You're just like this boy. Okay I know. Remember you hosting any consent workshops or anything like that time if you were that today. I'm sure yeah so anyway. I was talking to him and by now a year. Since we first met he had a girlfriend he was like reevaluating auto stuff and while we were talking. This other boy texted me. Nate nate had had like a bad with cups and he was somebody who really prized connection and relationships and he was down in southern California and he was looking at schools that he'd been accepted to for college and he was like you know w t f with hookup culture. It's like an orange down here. Do I just go to bone town? Were case you were wondering if they were blunt with me go to boomtown and worry about it later. You know and have an emotional connection later. Skip that part what do I do and so I read this text to Wyatt who escaping with and they ended up having this whole conversation through me about authenticity in about who you should be in who you are and it was like this amazing moment which like this was taking me way back around to what would I I sound. Which is that can never anticipate what's going to happen. When hang out with these guys and I just ended up feeling like you know they had this conversation. I mean I'm a stranger to them really. They never met. They don't know each other. And what would have like what would happen if God could really have these conversations. Oh with in their real lives not with some total stranger or luck. Yeah I think so yes so much I mean there's a million different Bad Ingredients in the stew but one of them. That's so powerful is yeah that the boys really don't feel comfortable talking to other boys about anything. Really that could be vulnerable or show. Any you know lack of total conviction on every single topic which was totally at the heart of this. This is at the end. This boy. The know nate the guy who was texting. Thank you so much. That's just what I needed to hear. And he sent me a little hard Emoji now. I immediately think of like the murkiness of your role in that you start by hoping to learn from them what their culture is around this topic in how they are acting and whatnot but of course you develop relationships has happens and then they're asking you advice so was in southern. California and as you like what should I do so tell me about that aspect of it? What's the line you walk in as a challenging as it can be mostly? It's not mostly. I feel like what they would talk about after our interviews was that it felt sort of Cathartic or therapeutic or they had never had a chance to talk about sex and intimacy and masculinity and gender dynamics on these things in to anybody a lot of times. They'd say I'd never told anybody this or you know what the fuck I'm just GonNa say this. Sometimes that meant that they were going to disclose something they did that. They felt bad about your. You know whatever but I felt like boys never have the permission to have this conversations and so what I was kind of giving them if my role is to give them anything at all was protected. Space Your they could talk about their anterior lives in a way that they never get to so just kind of like by bearing witness to that. Yeah well one of the points you make early on in your book. Maybe even in the introduction. Is that what you knew? My doing girls in sex is that parents are not talking to their kids about sex ner. They're not at all and then they're even talking less to boys'll 'cause they're less concerned in general about it is that fair to say they had been but I think things have changed. Oh you think they use. Things are changing because well because they're worried they're worried that if they're boys are GonNa Cross lines and get into some kind of sexual trouble song. Girls just used to see as the price of admission and not act on. Yeah Luckily we now do that. Means that boys have to be more mindful and more educated and actually see their burners people. So what boys would say that. They tend to here was. Don't get pregnant. Don't get a disease and respect women and that last one like encompass like all this stuff right and I would say like I. Don't I said to me that's like telling your son not to run over any little ladies and then handing him the car keys? I mean you don't think you're GONNA run over any little old ladies but you don't know how to drive. The same. Respect is a very opaque kind of the fuck. Does that mean exactly? And also that you're in a really weird paradigm when you're that age. Which is your parents aren't telling you the truth. And you're dead aware of great like you know they're not telling you the truth and so then you're only other source is your peers and they're piecing it together so you're kind of trying to pick who's right and certainly your parents haven't earned your trust in that. Marvin so you're probably more likely to believe whatever your buddies are already likes. Whatever he's doing must be the right thing to do because everyone likes him right. You know. It's just kind of ends up being really basic calculations. You're doing that aren't probably the best plus now. Kids have this gigantic media that we didn't have it just wasn't like that. No I had to steal a playboy from my GRANDPA's house hide under the bed. Yeah even the porn but like all of it. You know the coming at you. It's so big but you know a lot of it comes so that's why I kind of felt like you know we real conversations with boys and hear what they're thinking and know what's going on with them because you know we didn't have the luxury of not talking to them anymore. Yes so I think that in general again I. This'll be self-serving because I'm a boy but just the general marching orders of the last three years in the wake of me to just being like men be better well okay. It's a lot more complicated than they were in the middle of a working machine. That women are part of men are part of parents. Aren't there's no? One is just individually on their own. Not INTERACTING ARE NOT BEING AFFECTED. And you know right so it's so complex. Known could ever say his statement like girls be better be better. It's like hey society we gotta be better like Abo- side. This whole thing has got to evolve right absolutely. And that's why like to me this during the books together girls and sounds like to just make all those dynamics visible what the girls against so just in my own having not written a book about it but just being now a father of girls starting to recognize some of these things have grown up with one of the one thing that I I tend to really stress out about. Is this crazy pressure. That's put on young girls about their virginity and that you have to make sure this guy is a good guy that he loves you that it's special and no one's putting anything on the boy's shoulders it's just like you at fourteen or sixteen or seventeen need to have the ability to assess who's a good man who loves you in order to do this thing and by God if it turns out he wasn't that then the shame that accompanies just the whole the whole responsibilities on on this young girls shoulders. Oh which I find to be. Just holy unequal. Well I guess I would even step back further and say. How do we define sex? Do we count oil sexist sites like why are we could there be? Multiple Virginity is instead of just this one thing and I mean a lot of what I talked about. Girls and sex was the ways that girls learned to disconnect from their bodies and that the way in our to disconnect from desire and pleasure. I called the American psychological clitoridectomy. Okay Clitoris a great. So like when girls are born we are born when babies are born. We tend to name all of boy's body parts so like if say like there's your pb or something burden with girls. We go right from naval denise and we don't like we leave this whole situation in between totally unnamed and then they go into like maybe they get older they go into puberty education classes and they learned that boys have erections and wet dreams and girls have periods in unwanted pregnancies. Right right the same like that internal diagram of the you know it. Looks like a Steve. Jobs and grays up between legs. Right so you never say Vulva Clitoris nor majora. Exactly no surprise most girls. Have you know? Fourteen to seventeen years old have masturbated even once really the majority. Yeah and then. We're always trying to figure this out by the way we always get into conversation. And we're like what percentage do you think the surveys boys I would have to Blanking forty percent or sixty percent. Is that the majority. Of course you can sure shirt because it's it's not at the top of my head but it's right but it's a lot it's most right and so then they go to their partner. Interactions Right. Uh-huh somehow expect that they're gonNa know what they want. They're going to know what they need to know their limits how to communicate that guy knows what he's doing exactly so we've set them up and then on top of that we make this really big deal this one act like it's the line in the sand that. I certainly feel that most girls right so like the whole thing skews it away from girls their pleasure of their bodies of their desires and having an experience. That's really like in that body connected so even beyond what you were started with. GotTa find this right guy and stuff. The whole premise is wrong in a way right yet will by the way the reward for finding the right guy is not that you'll enjoy it or have an orgasm or find joy in intimacy is just that you won't have the shame and regret right. He won't be made a fool of in made to be a slut and all these other. Pejoratives is true that most young people want to explore sexuality and a trusting relationship. But you know we just act like doing this one thing one time suddenly going to make you experienced or only make you know something that you don't know and we all know that's a lie if you make out with somebody you're fifteen years old and you make out with somebody for three hours. You're experimenting with like sensuality in Communication. And you'RE GONNA learn a heck of a lot more than if you get drunk at a party and the random to punch your visa card. You know no you're right. The the much bigger source of that feeling of intimacy and love and connection is actually in eroticism. Sensuality right. Yeah okay so with girls. There's that issue there's also these two options on the table right. Which is year either a prude. Or you're a slot right those both of which are negative. Who had you know? What's the right number? How do you? How do you like one girl said to me? Usually the opposite of a negative is a positive but when you're talking about and sex there's two negatives so where do you go on that poll and where you are now so personally? I was super sexual really young. I was molested when I was younger. So it's hard for me to iron out what I think. A humans just natural disposition is to that I certainly desired at greatly. I don't know how much I can speak to. You like your average boy but I definitely do remember having many friends who I was shocked to learn like didn't WanNa have sex so like I was subscribing to this serotype as well that like boys just WanNa have sex and then occasionally I would have a friend that would be like yeah. I'm scared to do that and I was like. Oh I wasn't expecting that. Yeah I mean that's you know one of the things that I talk a lot about with boys. Is that stereotype? Throw down to fuck you know. They aren't necessarily. There's that pressure that you're supposed to be that way guide in the hallway. You get status. That's a big way to get status hooking up with as many as possible with as little as possible in trading partners disposable and guys had related to that all kinds of different ways. I mean I was thinking about this one guy who said he'd had a bunch of hoops in college that included intercourse. And he said it's it's weird because it's like there's not a lot of I contact. It's a lot of conversation and it's like you're acting vulnerable without being vulnerable. Yeah you're you're you're you're taking physical steps of vulnerability but there's really no emotional wounds and vulnerability issue is really interests you and oh big time. Yeah sometimes after book. He don't realize what it's about till after you write it And they start talking about it and I realized that really at the heart of this book and you see the word vulnerables like a neon sign throughout the book. Is that issue of guys. Rustling with the taboo against vulnerability whether it's that they're rejecting it or denying it or embracing it or capitulating it. It's all of it whether you're talking about the masculinity itself or all the different ways that I talk about the relationship to sex and it's always dancing around that it's always trying to reckon with that and with the wall you know that they've all put up between themselves that vulnerable self in the world yet and I was really acutely interested in how things have changed since I was that age when I was reading your book and what I saw which was completely consistent is still the worst thing you can be is a girl in any capacity so being vulnerable as being girly or you know not wanting to fuck would be girly and all these things. The only thing beyond that of course is to be a fag right and so I was curious if that was still the thing and it is still a thing but then I was really interested to hear that. They are very explicit about the fact that they don't mean gay right they still say fag but they just WanNa be clear. We're not talking. We're not saying that about sexual right. I mean th th. There are a lot of differences with poison. I mean they have female friends. They see girls as totally deserving of their places in the classroom and you know on the playing field leadership and in professional. I mean all that is there too. And that's why was started when we were talking earlier about grills on the contradiction that I was always interested in these contradictions between the new and the old. I think that's what's going on with guys like this sort of inflection. Point in a way with boys who were. We were with girls twenty-five years ago. And so that stuff you know when I would say what's the ideal guy they would still be saying. Yeah athleticism dominance aggression sexual conquest emotional support themself lettuces. All I was shocked I thought it was like famous. Still still absolutely you know when I say that. Even though that wasn't necessarily they were also think about what's small percentage of the high school population that applies to what percentage of people are athletes or are actively involved in that. You know it less than ten percents. You've got an ideal that less than ten percent of the people are going to achieve. It's just a kind of a bad recipe right out of the game. You know right but back to the you know to the fact thing. It didn't mean to them. Necessarily that they were questioning. Somebody's sexual orientation and they would say. I would never say that I have gay friends. I would never say that capers and that makes it. Okay I don't think so but it was about masculinity right and there's this is the antithesis of masculinity and it can be it's like slot can mean anything can be applied to anything it can you know and so it creates like when they talk about the man box or the. 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Dax Start Your trial today. That's an OEM DOT COM SLASH TAX CJ. Pasco who who writes about? This is a sociologist and Oregon. Did this whole thing where she looked at a thousand tweets with the Hash Tag. No Homo Guy. Yes by the way. We've talked about this on here before. I've received many of them like a Guy Will WanNa tell me he liked me in a movie and that's just way too vulnerable so they'd have no hormone then that's exactly what she said. She said what you see when you look at the mall is that it's used as a shield so that they can express normal emotions of affection or connection and the no. Hama allows them to do that by using this kind of homophobic slurs slash joke in the process. I'm forty five. I was just in the hospital with my friend. My friend was receiving is back in Michigan receiving these beautiful texts from his friends. You know. He's a roofer reason manual labor. His friends are also in these. These tags were like dude. Scared me so much so glad you're safe in the hospital and then straight into some kind of a homophobic epitaphs like it's the same thing as home like Oh man. That was hard. I just said I was worried about you. I'm glad you're safe. And now I gotta throw something out there to just kind of negate the whole thing and I pointed out to him and he is like. Oh my God. It's so true and we just went through all of them. Every one hundred percent of them had some kind of disclaimer. It exists within the gay community as well because we have a very very good friend Jess. Who's gay and we're doing this separate ten episode podcast together about relationships and he talks about being gay and within those relationships how femininity is also devalued valued. Exactly so it's it's a hard thing to come back because it's everywhere it's even coming from the source like yeah women can treat men that we do. There's research that says that women say they want to be vulnerable but when they are not so happy about it Sinoe so can collude as well like. I think. I'm only getting away with it because I'm also like embarrassingly committed. All these hyper masculine. Things like off roading and fighting all these things were that bought me enough leeway to also be very vulnerable. Even I I feel like there's some weird balancing act in my life where it's like. Oh I can get away with all that I can wear a ponytail. I can do this because I'm doing that so I so someone could just blatantly. Call me back and that's your version of no home. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah Yeah Yeah the same thing genuinely like those things but yes yes. It is now okay. There's a call for parents to talk about sex. And what specifically do you think parents should be saying about sex with this book with boys and sex? I did something different with my books. I I've tended to always like take the reader into some situation. 'cause like when you're a writer the first thing learned showing not tell right right so I was I. Well have to give an example of what this looks like in a classroom or a prison. I'm profiling and I kept trying with boys and sex. Trying like to go to different programs going to classrooms and I just kept thinking. This isn't right. This isn't right and I think it was because I've been writing about teenagers and sexuality for nine years now and I felt like I have things to say uh-huh and so in the last chapter of this book I not exactly the script but a little bit of a template for the kinds of conversations that we have because it's a lot of conversations and it's about sex but it's not about sex. I like our conversation has been about sex but not about sex. Sure his overarching identity of being. Now it's about all these different things and it's like you can't trust. It's you know we have this idea that it's the talk but like if you set your daughter's down and said alright girls. I'm going to tell you about table manners. Now you're gonNA use your fork and cut nicely with your right hand with your knife and you're gonNA say please pass and thank you very much and May I. Please be excused from the table. Okay go forth. Now you know table manners. That would be absurd writing at least as important as table manners farmer so I talk about a lot of different kinds of conversations that we need to have particularly with boys and this book and also the role of adult man mother. It's your father or your uncle or whatever the guy is in your life young and I think it's really hard because adult men weren't raised this way right weren't raised to have these conversations more than that we. We also know exactly what the outcome would have been had. We behaved in a way that maybe we're going to now urge our boys to base. So I'll just tell you the deep fear I would have. I would have the fear of like okay. I saw the mask you live in. I now know what I know. I can't not incorporate this yet. So is my child going to be. The sacrificial lamb is going to be my boy who is vulnerable and open and cries in public and then all the boys kick his ass in his. Life's fucking miserable. Because I gave him permission to do that. That's the fierce around. All of us guys got it. I would refer him that in a couple of different ways. One is resilience as what you're after here Not You know the guy who's GonNa burst into tears and kind of like what does it mean to raise. Raise a resilient person who is low but also because I've about girls for all these years if I had been here twenty five years ago telling you about my first book. I've been talking about school girls and the ways that we have to you know that girls tend to like pull back when they're teenagers and start saying what they know and stop volunteering and class and stop stepping up and that we really need to change that that that's hurting are really quick. I'm semi aware of that concept but I doubt everyone is but girls did that right because at some point. Guys don't like smart girl. Well well if it's not an easy thing but it's like it's a dynamic that we were giving them profoundly mixed messages about how they should behave as women and what they were able to do and what was okay and you know that you were supposed to leave simultaneously stand up and speak your mind China bright but as a girl you're supposed to be deferential and please everybody so it was it. Was this contradiction that goes. We're living within two degrees still do but I think we've done a lot better at broadening ideas of what it means to be a girl. I mean like you know when I started doing this people were like well. Girls are just innately bad at math. I mean they just are. We don't say that anymore So when I was doing that work I would go out and talk about it and and people could be like. Yeah Yeah Yeah and then parents would say but I think about raising my own daughter differently to a stronger. More assertive girl worry that. She's going to be sacrificial lamb. She's GonNa get called a bitch normalize earn aren't GonNa be and she'll be lonely and I'm worried about what it would mean to do that. So again I feel like that's where we are a little bit with boys them. We have to start taking these risks and recognizing so that they'll be better partners or be less likely to commit assault or be better in bed or whatever it is back because those qualities that they keep citing as being you know the ideal qualities are really harmful to them you know I mean they are are linked to all these behaviors like being violent having violence committed against you. Binge drinking risky sexual behavior car accidents self harm depression loneliness you know. They're not doing boys. Any favors yeah well again. Yeah I go like oh I could raise my boy to be this but really are any of the girls going to like him like this is where I say. It's like such a Yin and Yang Scenario. It's like the whole system's gotta be changing simultaneously and we have done so much changing in a certain way with girls you know like. I feel like we've done a lot run media literacy. We've like I think when you're seeing right now in media shows like sex education and big mouth that actually acknowledged the existence of female pleasure or different things girls in leadership. That's been a huge change girls on the plainfield enormous change in. We've made all kinds of changes but we haven't brought into the conversation in the same way that you pointed out which was really fascinating that I hadn't even thought of. Is that if you were a young woman for the last the going on forty years now there was a movement called feminism. Where you could get interested in this movement and you could start being a part of the conversation of what it means to be feminine or a woman or a feminist so they were kind of actively encouraged to define what it is in presumably guide where they want it to be but there's never been a movement for man not in the same way famines is a movement like that for men but I think for where the guys are starting to go. Oh Yeah I inherited a role to I. Don't WANNA be a fifties house father you know. I don't WanNa be that Guy. Cut off mostly normalize with your children you. Can you relationships you want to be able to? Yeah there's no name for that movement. You know what I'm saying that there's no it is funny because just inherently because feminism has feminine in it that men feel a little squeamish about attaching themselves to that even if they are totally feminists which just means equality right the idea that. I'm a feminist they. I think there's fear that it means they're feminine and they don't want that association. I only mean that feminism in its most literal term means like the experience of women in raising equality for women for men conventionally well raising female equality to meet men so that have pretty things equal right and so if you look at like wages or title attainment or any of these things yes. Men are just crushing. Why would they wouldn't be needed to raise anyone's level but we're also completely bereft in all the emotional experiences in life that are as important if not more than being a CEO of something. So it's like there's this whole pocket of life that we don't have great access to in our society which we should want access to that. We should have talks about how we get that. Well Yeah and we. We've framed it sort of said that when women are seeking that public power. That's aspirational right reaching up Men want access to that to raise their kids that feels like weakness or stepping down. And so that's that dynamic right there. Yeah it makes it really difficult. Yeah that's the question another aspect as we talk about affairs and cheating what I have noticed in my experience and having lots of different friends who've dealt with this is if a woman cheats on a man and that man confronts her about it about ninety percent of the time within the first three questions will be how big is his dick. And did you come? Dat is the man's greatest fear is someone outperformed him that there was another man who did it better than them. Who had a bigger Dick into me? It's just very eye opening of what our fears are also misconception. Eh totally that goes back to. What the guys that these boys that? I would talk to. You had like such misconception of what sexual satisfaction was and they were not like in particular hookup. They weren't particularly interested in female orgasm. I mean that was not a given so when I was writing about the girls that was like a big thing that we would discuss was the sort of disinterest in female orgasm but when I was really surprised with the guys in that hookup culture was that they were interested in females satisfaction but they didn't measure it the same way. Didn't they think that as long as they were last seen a long time? It wasn't about the sex. It was about the story that you go back and tell your friends and they wanted to make sure that the story the girl was GonNa Tell. Her friends was one about stamina and size absolutely one way said like. I started glancing at the clock before it starts intercourse so I know that I lasted a respectable amount of time right not I pleasure exactly but I would tell her friends who wasn't disappointed. Yes fires sex into kind of a he said I enjoyed it but it also turned it into a task where I wasn't in the moment. The the most known Goto scenarios like think of baseball. Why is that something? Every guy knows on planet Earth Baseball during sex and let you know what I'm saying. There's no one you could say. Think of baseball to. Who doesn't know that concept? Now which just tells you that every males dealing with some fear that they're gonNA orgasm too soon and that they believe staying in the saddle a really long. Time is the recipe for satisfaction which is not the case and I guarantee if you presented any guy with a rumor surrounding him could be. You have a humongous Dick. Any lasts forever versus you have a moderate sized penis in you come pretty quickly but you gave the girl twelve orgasms in your great at oral. No one's picking second option even though every woman every woman would but by the way it's a two way street you guys have the same stuff. This is like no one's unique in this so this is an argument that yes so all of us guys think. Dick Sizes everything because each other does. It's guys like we were the only ones perpetuating Matt it's all our fault likewise all the women that are saying I have to be so thin because of men. It's like no. We don't look at supermodel magazines. We actually don't know about fashion models. We don't were in the dark about that. That's not what we like yet. You guys have convinced yourself. That's what we liked on both sides of mediate here. Yeah please I gr- I mean yes. I think women place a lot of judgment on other women and bodies and all that stuff. That's real but men are involved in that. There is a body in society that it seems that men prefer at different times. That changes also also. We don't. I'm just going to tell you the in the same way. That women don't prefer musclemen but all of us men have convince ourselves that all women WanNA muscle man. We're delusional you. Guys don't WanNA mostly man. We don't want a skinny wavy girl. Do we don't I can tell you of all my friends. We don't want that and yet women really believe we want that and it doesn't matter how many times I say that me and all my group of friends are looking also no. That's not true because I know one of your friends who does so. It's person to look. Everyone probably has their own preference for their own thing. That varies across the board. But there is some societal on both ends. That's what I'm saying. Why would we be susceptible to this narrative that were self-perpetuating in the women would not be acceptable to a self perpetual probably are with the Dick size? That's different thing than body types. I think the women do feed into a male body type and I don't think that's not my preferred body type. Women are a part of that conversation. Some women like muscular guys exactly but it is not right to say that all women like muscular guys nor is it right to save men. All once. Eighty pound runway right. I think all is probably the the part of the sentence. That's a problem and argue. It's equal on both sides. I think we're both delusional about what the other wants. Yes but what I was I was saying is annoying as you were giving two options. One of the options had the woman being satisfied in the other. One didn't and in your opinion most guys would pick the one where the women wasn't satisfied that I find annoy of horse. It's it's annoying but because it means that has nothing to do with the earnest in that they think that's what a woman wants. So where do you feel that? They're getting that from each other because the guys in the locker room going. Oh I fucked her for an hour and then everyone else is like I come in a minute. So it's I can't do that so that must be the goal because it seems hard and unattainable most goals are. I mean the locker room conversation piece. That was something I listen to a lot with. What did you hear well? There's a lot of bonding straight guys through. You know the control of women's bodies like that in the end and and yeah. They never talk about like I was. We had this really incredibly sensual experience. They Bang they pound they hammer. They hit that they you know they were on a construction site. It's not like they had an intimate experience but the thing was was that I felt like the boys they weren't like these blank slates on which the culture would inscribe that they were just all going. Yeah yeah that's right. That's how I feel you know. They were struggling with that stuff. Yes so they would you know. I have a lot of guys still like writing. What do I do about the locker room talk thing? It really offends me or you know I. I really don't like hearing the guys talking like that and one of the guys that I talked to. He tried to go up against it right me and a friend and they got mocked you know immediately shut shut down and the next time. It happened one of them. I'm the guy that I was talking to said that. He decided not to say anything and his friend kept saying stuff he says he. I just watched him. He lost all his social capital a man. I just had buckets of it. But I wasn't spending it and he was like he was gonNA actually going into the military and he said. I don't what I'm supposed to do. I don't WanNa have to choose between my dignity and these guys I'm going to serve with. But how do I make it? So they don't have to choose. And there was this whole thing Michael Thompson psychologist about the silence in which boys become men so much of to me was not only about this. You know the like you know big Dick comments and stuff but also about all the things that boys learn. They can't say won't say don't say and how that is what creates that kind of rigid masculinity to or creates a place. Where you yeah because I I would say just in general if some boy in that circle offers up something vulnerable even the others can relate. They've never been given the tools to now help deal with what was just revealed so now it's six people feeling awkward. No one has the tools in the maybe the whole. Ten minutes which is a bummer. For everyone even the guy who decided to be honest you know or brave right Yemen as you say sometimes the person the Batmans picking between success career wise like in the military. If he chooses to do that then he's not gonna be one of the guys and he's not going to actual impact on his life for him to. I talked to him a year later. We had a whole new conversation about so like. How is that going for you? What's happening with saying he had he was. It was just very as he predicted. He was really struggling with it and he was hoping that you know he'd be able to lead by example at some point but really a lot of what he was doing was being quiet. And that's hard I mean I. I totally understand a hard. That is an as I've been going around. You know talking to different cities with boys and sex. I've had guys like the other. Division One athlete came up to me and said what what what do I do? Tell me what to do. Tell me what to say in a book citing line not so much but you know we corresponded. Afterthought give do you well. It's not easy right. I mean ideally. There's a coach that you can talk to. That can bring in programming. Or There's a program called coaching boys into men for high school and Middle School. Boys that is fantastic. A really like super light intervention his coaches having one ten fifteen minute conversation a week with guys of on these certain topics and it's been shown to really make a difference to reduce violence and increased bystander. Intervention reduced the language. And all that stuff. So coaches can make a huge difference. If you've got that coach but sometimes coaches are part of the problem. So then are there guys on your team. Who are on your team. You know who? Maybe you can listen to. I give some resources to them about ways you might be able to take sides. Somebody who's doing some of the stock and just say your piece neutrally now other hidden like. Yeah maybe a little say. Do I need to get you a Tampon? Or don't be a pussy or whatever they say but you're just like you know he's say what you say and you do your best and or maybe you can't and you think about working with younger guys herself and being the example that and doing that sort of mentoring then has no tolerance for that or offer some other way or supports the guys that you were but didn't find supporting being. Yeah I mean. There's there's not a magic bullet but I feel like there's a whole I had to code switch to is in here being vulnerable and then I can't honk. Yeah okay but that's guy mode. I did not but I coach switched because shing back. Yeah yeah interesting. The there's one piece that was written after this book came out In Men's health by this Guy Brad. Weiner's he was. He said that he felt that. He saw himself reflected in some of the me too stuff. His behavior his past not accused key recognize. Oh yeah you know. And he's like okay. So how am I gonNa do this differently with my kid. And he like took seriously the stuff in the book and really grappled with and went in like had these conversations with his son. I felt like I was watching watching an action. It was really really cool but but it was struggling with. How do you have these conversations with boys on support them in making that kind of change or just thinking about their dynamics with women or any of this stuff vulnerabilities like guys vulnerability especially when they're drunk To over preceding yes You know just seeing anything. That girl does or says any active friendliness. It's on right now. How to about that he will. That's my big so so the thing I've said on here before is I agree wholeheartedly with the direction it's going. I think God it's going directions going again. I have two daughters thank God. It's going the direction it's going with. That said I think the entire traditional role of a man pursues a woman. She's got the brake pedal and he's got the gas pedal that too has to change because people have to hook up. People need to Fall in love and have sex. So yes we're going to teach the guys as we should put the fucking brakes on but we also have to tell. Ub ASSERTIVE UNM sex. You pursue you know what I'm saying like if they do had this whole thought about that recently because I I was talking at a at a girls school and this dad raised his hand and said I just. I'm really troubled by the way we've been talking about consent like it's something that boys are getting from girls and that is still not you know giving girls the agency right. So is writing this book and I was Writing about this whole thing about gay guys how they're better at negotiating consent and like navigating consent and straight people. And how the because they kind of have to learn how to do that. Because it's not like what's going to happen with whom or how is that. There's more defined roles that they have to have a discussion doing what that's what I'm thinking about. Whatever you're going to do and an so. Dan Savage so Dan said to me at the beginning of a gain connor with two guys that they'll say the magic words. What are you into Manhattan moment? You will anything in and anything out. Everything's on the table. And you have this discussion and it's like the kind of open to question you. Wish people would ask in a section of all people with us but I started thinking about it after I was like. Yeah that's really great and I wrote about that and I said you know this'll be ideal after that Moore recently been thinking but dance. Gay Sex with men If you had heterosexual young people and and a guy asked that question the answer and this is back to these hidden. The the girls answer might be. I have no earthly idea right. So where do we go from there? Yeah how do we get from that? Who People being men and women young men and young women in particular starting their sexual experiences being able to ask that question and answer that For Real because that's when we're going to be where we need to be with stuff entirely and I yeah I just worry that the I just worry who's instigating and you're right and did the. The concepts never even considered whether the guy gave consent. I've never even heard. I've never read one line of Writing About Guy. Giving each book. Oh Okay I'm not. They're not that far. So there's a whole chapter. That is about the issue of poison unwanted sex which includes molestation for sure sure but also like sex. You could have stopped but but you continue with and also things that reach the level of assault on in terms of both men a men and also things that young women may do stay tuned for more armchair. If you dare. We are supported by square. You Know Square. They make that little white card reader. That helps lots of businesses. 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Dax for thirty dollars off your total purchase of three hundred ninety nine dollars or more high quality custom suits off the rack. Price Columbia University did a two year. Multimillion-dollar study on sex and sexual assault on campus and found that one in three girls was sexually assaulted. But so we're one in eight guys And that much of the time. The perpetrator in the and a lot of it was groping or it wasn't like necessarily being forced to penetrate our involving being penetrated but in cases where it was penetration. A lot of it was women who either through incapacitation or nagging you know You know what are you gay friend? Right right right right. Pushed guys to have sex that they didn't want or had sex with them when they were incapacitated and didn't know they were having sex. I have an I frame that chopper with this boy. I mean I'm just going to have to imagine. Also it's more than one and eight because what it's such an emasculating thing. Exactly there are differences. The Jesse Ford whose research looked at men and unwanted sex young women on to sex. The range was much bigger obviously of of the kinds of things that girls experience and there was. They felt physically threatened. Sure the women right. Yeah of course And the men did not tend to and it was that threat of physical violence or force that tended to really result in trauma And and that loss of control but guys sometimes did feel that and some of the guys that I've talked to not you know not a huge number of them would say I don't know what I call that. If the situation were reversed you would call it assault. But I don't know what I call it when it happens. You know they don't really know what to do with it but some of them especially if it was like their first time having intercourse and they had wanted that to be with somebody significant and they had been drunk and erections do not equal consent They were pretty devastated. In the way that girls would have been devastated and it took me a number of times hearing that from boys. Yeah team believe believe. Yea well that's weird I'm like I can't imagine yeah. Was it for some of them? It really spiral them downwards and with more shame. Because you're gonNA tell by one guy I mean. His experience had not been quite as good he. He had had a first time. That was not great and he said you know it felt good but it didn't feel good kind of traumatized by it. And then he said but one of supposed to tell my friends. You can't say that to a guy it's like it's got to be. It's not even it's got to be great. It's great sure. Sure Right. Yeah no bad pizza. There's no room and you know I mean if you can't say no respect that thing that we were saying earlier like guys always being down to fuck if you can't say no you don't have sexual agency command and that's enough like that in itself is enough right but I also don't know how you can hear somebody else's now if you're not allowed to say it to right. Yeah but and then there is a subset of guys two who had Who had been molested sometimes by other boys or other men and sometimes by adult women and that whole piece too I mean the porn fantasy of the mail freight eye witness it myself at least once. A year story breaks where a Seventeen year old boys having sex with his thirty year old teacher and I. I'm like good for that dude. I would've loved to have had sex with a couple of teachers and then I hear the reverse their year old dude having sex with a seventeen year old student. I'm like that guy's a fucking Predator and she needs protection and I'm like well I can at least knowledge other Asli concerning that. That's my reaction but that is my true reaction. Yeah and you know that may be an appropriate reaction clearly. I'm aware of that but I'm just telling the on his thought is like I don't feel bad for that seven year old boy at all. So what if you were fourteen? What is your line? They're fourteen dicey fifteen feels less dicey? At least when I was fifteen I was like six three and I would love to have done that. So I'm I'm I'm locked in my perspective. I mean I've I've talked to guys of all ages. I have A. I have a friend. Who is in his fifties? Whose early first experience was you know. Maybe he was fifteen or sixteen with a friend of his mom's he looks back on. That really unhappily really unhappily. But then it gets into the particulars. Right she manipulating ham. Was You know? There's so many ways taking advantage if it's a fourteen or fifteen always is it just. Is that person does not have the frontal lobe cognition to make a real decision in that way. They just don't yeah. I mean if you use the example of like okay. When I was fifteen I was in love with Demi Moore. He was probably. I don't know if I was fifteen. She was probably twenty five or something. Yeah I'm no victim in that scenario guarantee you you are if if she has sex with you yes. You are not not wind up there. I was in love with fifty year olds when I was. I mean taunt but if he had actually had sex with me I mean sure maybe in the moment I would have been like everything ever wanted. I'm getting taken advantage of. Even though you pursued him. Sure all right. You should read the book Three women do that. But no it's it's really good but one of the stories in it is about a seventeen year old girl who has a relationship with her high school teacher. Who's thirty and then? But it's not until she's a bit older till she's like in her that she can has the wherewithal to see what that power differential wasn't abusive. That was absolutely but I'll also add into that equation. I think that it was deception. In that I'm certain she thought she was going to have a life with that person or a relationship but she she well she thought. I think that often people when they're in that kind of dynamic that they feel special they feel chosen. Sure they're often Iceland become isolated from their friends. Because they're you know they're more supposedly grown up than their shirt happen That that can happen with either girls or boys can but I would argue though that quite often the young female really believes she's going to be in a relationship with that man because she doesn't know any better and that's why we have to not have that let that happen. That's right. I am not making a case for anyone to do this. I'm only saying the man is consciously manipulating her. Because he's not looking for relationship with a seventeen year old so there's deception right out of the gates. There's a bad intention like I'm gonNA trick this person. I think we're in a relationship so that I can get out of it so now. It is quite often that a seventeen year old boy just wants to have sex with the twenty five year old woman so whereby both people are trying to get the same thing and getting it does feel different to me. Not Okay just. I think the fact that there's deception involved in one heightens it but I can tell you that you know. I certainly had boys who talked to me. Who were Being sexually preyed upon by adult women by teachers and other people who believe that very thing to believe that they were going to have a life. People are did believe you know they were manipulated. They are groomed. They were preyed upon. You know exactly the same way. That girls are our tendency as a society to not see that in their victim and and they well can be of course. Yeah Yeah I know it's wrong from just exploring out loud. I know it's wrong that I don't care that this boy did this. And so why? What is the case on building for why? I don't think it's the same with the with the full admission. It's not right at by any stretch. I don't think it's healthy for any thirty year. Old Woman to be wanting sex with a seventeen year old boy. I think there's all kinds of things probably going out with her. And then you can ask questions like what if it were a man. What if it were thirty or thirty year? Old Man in sixteen year old boy. Would you see that differently? I would just say do I do? So it's it's an interesting. I have a lot of gay friends who have been introduced to the gay life. style in educated by someone older than them that have had a great experience. And I'll listen to that store and I go. Wow if that's between a man and woman to me it's very Predator Oriel and wrong. And then the way you're describing this thing is much different so I do think you know have talked about this. A lot to also can be a problem can be abusive can be manipulative. And I had a lot of guys of of gay boys that I talked to. Who especially now. Because they've got grinder. They would lie about their age right and go under grinder and be hooking up anonymously with much older men which you know and I would say to them. If you were girl I would think that was really you know I would have to report you. and they would say yeah. It's not great. They didn't feel great about that but they didn't feel that there were other options in sort of the the way that we've suppressed people being able to express their sexuality has kind of forced a dynamic. Maybe and maybe if we could provide more situations more social situations where they could have age appropriate experiences and you know have social experiences and have romantic experience and have sexual experiences in the ways that other teams are allowed to You know that's what we should be thinking about that. If that was on solid footing maybe the other thing wouldn't exist one of the things that I wrote a lot about was that like with Gabe I mean. Obviously it's a new time right. I mean obviously enormously for them and you know they can come out of fifteen and there's like a gay guy running for president and all these things but it was like all social front like it was more like you could be the gay best friend or you can be the theater boy but nobody was still talking to them about what a mutually gratifying and personally fulfilling sexual experience or relationship would be like for them and heterosexual parents in particular kind of didn't want to think about the whole sex piece so they you know if you're not talking to your straight kit about sex talking you're gay kit about sex and I really probably so that really did drive them more into this world where they were kind of looking for a mentor or looking at porn as a template and that's not ideal that's not what want for any young person. Yeah now again. More anecdotal information for you. I'm in a here. A lot of people share I noticed about five years ago. Oh the younger guys have a much different relationship with sexual than I had growing up or at least different parameters. I'm noticing this like fluidity with younger guys. That certainly didn't exist when I was twenty two years old and I'm just wondering how that's evolved. Now as you're writing your book do you notice like is it still all the same or is it? There's substantial difference in what's on the table for everyone. I kind of. Yes and no I mean it seemed to me like sexual. Fluidity was more acceptable for the girls. Girls were more likely to identify as bisexual Pan Sexual To be interested in going out with translator. Trans Girls Boys still felt pre-tape boxed me less so a little bit but I think that had moved a lot less okay. Because that's what I saw. Yeah and what impact is that having on the conventional definitions of masculinity and the roles? Everyone's playing you know. I did look at transpose. To agree not not like hugely. But Did Stephanie. Part of the book and it was. I mean. They're not as one guy said you know we're not sent down like angels from Heaven to Change Your Masculinity we exists. Yeah Yeah And some of them just wanted to be the most conventional of guys but sometimes they pushed guy other guys to not like question you know whether they were really men or anything like that. To sort of broaden their ideas what does it actually mean to be mailed? What does it actually mean to be a man? What does it actually mean to engage in these things and that guy in particular would talk about? He's said a Lotta sense like well you know. That's not my masculinity or he talked about it like this dynamic thing he was building. That is so interesting I never heard any other guy. I never heard like a we would now call a straight guy right say well. That's not my masculinity and I thought what an interesting way of looking at it that was looking at masculinity is something that you're creating kind of in making decisions about and this is my masculinity but that over there That's not the kind of fascinating night. Just wonder if now that there are. There's more acceptance of gay men and their as you say holding offices in Student Council and they're you know not running for president running for president and not relegated to the fringes of school if that is somehow encouraging going like wait. If that's the worst thing I can be in. Everyone likes this guy like can I move closer to the you know what I'm saying? I would hope that is happening. Some communities that you know near conventional peanuts toting guy was friends with a straight guy with had they would have gay friends transplants. But there was like I think there was a quota in their head. A little bit like thinking in this many trans and gay friends. You have too many them like you know. Start TO MIT than they may be. Start will be people will question. It was like weird you know was that you could slice it but I did see that the fraternity guys that I talked to. They had one guy who was like you know big ten school really Midwest Dude. They had a transplant there in their frat. Oh no kidding. Yeah and that really he said if I ever. It is Not so sure about this. But that over time you know they they were accepting and that that had broadened their idea of what masculinity was to. It did have kind of a good effect again. Like I said transplant Not really my job right right right Nor is it now? How about pornography? So how when we? Yeah when we talk about why. Us Idiot guys. Have this notion of like big Dick and lasts a long time. Because that's what you're seeing porno right. You're not seeing the guy's not clearly stimulating the girls. He's having sex with ninety nine percent of the time in a porno. Yeah if that's a never been more accessible ever history of the world and if that's the only version of sex scene and this is the default sex educator yes now. That's a huge problem. There's there's a lot of racial politics at play. Important black guys penises or black women not being present or only certain kind of black bodies or how Asian women are depicted. I mean all kinds of race stuff in porn and I would ask what is about that all the time like. How do you deal with the racism and they go? What what these guys who would see racism like in their normal lives. Of course they would. They were very aware but it was like they left. That's there's like you leave so much the door when you start looking through the porno videos that that is just one more thing even at the door. But it's another thing that's affecting you. You're just not acknowledging that it's there reading Missoula the Jon Krakauer bug in one of the cases was this you know to again blackout drunk people. This guy's start digitally penetrating this girl in Cheese. Like kind of coming in and out and then she says stop and he says No. I'm GonNa make you score in this boys a virgin. He doesn't know he thinks his job is in a sexual experiences. Then make someone score. That's what he's been led to believe is the norm or the high water mark of proficiency in bed. Yeah and that's why I know. And that's that is why we can't we? GotTa Talk to you. Know to to ignore what boys are absorbing in girls too because girls look at look at it more like a manual for what guys want right but if we're ignoring because it's it's really different and you have to. I mean I always like to frame this saying curiosity about sex's normal You know. Masturbation gay no good everybody and you know. There's all kinds of different porn and a lot of some people. Consider some form porn to be feminist corner ethical porn or whatever it is A lot of that's behind a paywall that's auto. What changed was porno right. Right right right. Came ON LINE. Two thousand seven and dropped the paywall for the most mainstream kind of hardcore porn. Yeah so curious how. They're making money to be honest. I don't know how they do it but but that that really nervous. Yeah that's what change and that was what allowed any with a smartphone to look at anything yes right to get a masterclass in male fantasy right. That kind of easy access porn case reinforcement. Study that something. Men Do to women. Female pleasure is a performance guys and they have nine orgasm guy. Just all these distortions and kids are looking at boys in particular look at it from the time they go through puberty and start masturbating. That's how they're right. You know I had one guy who said to me that there was a boy on his sports team. Who was a legend? Because he decided he wasn't going porn anymore and they were like well. What do you do? I use my imagination but I mean that's that's what it's right there. Of course it's so easy right but it's exactly fast food and and and it does even when they say it doesn't because they'll say I know the giants from reality and fantasy but how would they know that. What is their context? What if they actually never even kissed anybody you know? So of course meet the whole point of media. Any kind of media is that it affects our thoughts and feelings and beliefs even when we think it doesn't so I just wonder like This'll be provocative thought but I don't see us getting rid of pornography. I don't think that's in our future so to me. Then it goes we'll then Counter Program so more female directors written inspired fantasies of sex that are counteracting exists is behind a paywall. Well we gotta get it on paper. That's you know that's fair trade right so that's probably not going to happen but I think that we do have to talk about pornography leave pornography with boys and girls. Girls Watch it too and what it is. And what isn't what's Real. What's real what's missing? It's no different than the superhero movie. They go see it. As much an abstraction of a male fantasy this isn't completely male constructed male fantasy of what a male would do in bed in the same way. You know what you always have to ask us like. So why does that fantasy keep getting more and more aggressive these guys who are consuming a ton of pornography and they're not getting any real life sex getting more and more frustrated and aggravated in. They're getting more misogynistic and they're more pissed at women now they wanna see the guys. Punish these women. Because they're you know what I'm saying. I have to believe that's part of the cycle. I think that's but there's also there is so emily. Nagorski is this woman who rents a boat designs of desire at this book. Come as you are which was one of my very favorite books. She talks about how when something is Simultaneously Sexual Taboo. It creates a response like if I suddenly said to you okay. Docs don't think about a polar bear. stop thinking about that. Do not think about the polar like now you're thinking about a polar bogus you perfectly time legs. So because embedded in that don't think about this is think about this so embedded in like don't think about sex when this really offensive thing is happening or when this really disturbing things happening really taboo things happening is think about sex. Those things are happening and it can make something. That's like that you find objectionable even more turbocharger arousal. Yeah more than something that you don't find objectionable and I think it's really actually. That's one of the things that I say. In the book that boys that we need to talk about some of these physiology ideas because a lot of the boys really wanted to talk to me about porn. That was a big one and part of it was because they've had a lot of confusion around at are a lot of anxiety around it or like most common question they were asking. Well you know. Being aroused by things that upset them or like they were like choking people or gagging choking or gagging or things that involved shit or various. I mean there's a lot out there gangs whatever you know for Whether what they watch you know how much was normal but let me think. Jade guys related to a different. They didn't all related to the same way. I mean some of them really did kind of go like I really felt like it was messing with my head. One Guy said he was sitting in class in high school and he was like looking over at the Squirrel and he started imagining what she looked like with. Come on her face said that was it like what would it be like to kiss her? What would you come on? That is over the line. I don't want that in my. I don't want this image of thoughts in my head I think about it. Like with jumpsuits like the first time you have this but like the first time. I saw somebody wearing a jumpsuit. I thought recently I thought. Oh what's the second time you see the MARINA GERMS? That your dad the third time. You're like me a jumpsuit. It it just gets in your heads guys who said Oh. It doesn't affect me at all. It's just like sneezing but you know we know that even when you think it doesn't affect you and then there was some guys who really felt like whether it was. I don't I can't say whether it was true or not but they felt harmed by their park consumption and they had never told another adult dot and they wanted to talk to me specifically. I wasn't even watching porn and when I was new to masturbating I felt so guilty. We weren't even a religious house. I was constantly trying to quit that activity. I thought it was a Horn of me in Showed a total lack of control. And I was regularly trying to monitor that in and I couldn't so I can only imagine if I had on top of that Objectively some gnarly images. I'm tying with this already behavior. I'm for whatever reason shameful of in the nets in there to shame boys when when talking about it for sure right and to recognize like. I said sex curiosities normal. Masturbation is normal and to just kind of think about some of the stuff like if you know college corner or less satisfied with their sex lives on but their performance summit partners bodies managed thing to know. Sure the thing that one guy said to me that really affected me was even about any of that he just said you know. I feel like pornography for this generation. It's it's affected our ability to be innocent in a sexual relationship and just explore sex without preconceived ideas he said that's just been fucked by porn for us. Will you kinda start knowing every single conceivable thing that could happen? Yeah right you've seen every reese and yet the yes. Yes yes nothing and I mean I don't know I don't know what the ultimate impact is of all of that but I know it's a huge change and I don't think that we can raise kids in a culture of explicit media and not even porn but like regular media has gotten much more explicit. And pretend like we don't have to talk to them about it or I mean that's another thing with girls like we have all these years that I've been writing girls we've recognized I'm sure as a parent you recognize that the media images out there can be harmful to girls right. You knew that right. They can reduce them to their body. Their objectified there. You know whatever. It's bad for the mental health. All these things we know. So we've done a much better. Job of like Shrunk Union with them about media leaders in these organizations and there's like psychologists and advocates and activists and parents and everybody's like all careful and conscious about how we raise our girls in this media culture but boys are in the same stew right and even my current circles like most. La Parents are hyper aware of not creating potential of food dismay. But no one's thinking about that for the boys at all crossing online. No one's worried at all. No that's my. That's my point so we know how to do this. We've done it with girls. We know how to create media literacy. At least I mean it's not perfect on it doesn't always you know but we try. We try to give them because we can't make the meeting go away. We try to give them a Lens. We try to give them a critique. Nobody's doing that with boys. Nobody's during the boys and I feel like that's something that isn't even about like you know saying the word clitoris to your son which may be. You'd rather put yourself on the eye with a fork. Do but you know you can like start pointing out. I mean I remember when my daughter was really little. She's sixteen but when she was a like you know when she was little mood watch you know whatever animated films and just like. Hey honey you know look. The debt characters is bigger than arrests. Your is bigger than yours is bigger than your waist like. Where does she keep her uterus? Is it in her purse. Like what is going on I. I wouldn't have said that if I had a son arrived right. Yeah Yeah Yeah we say to. Our girls were reading We came under fire about this but we we are no way saying you shouldn't read snowing the seven doors. We love it. We still read it but we're always like kind of weird. A stranger came in. Kiss this woman who is dead. Isn't that kind of bizarre? Without even asking the NECROPHILIAC. Anne's not ask permission right. Just something to observe the Democrat but those are like those little weird. I mean those things with your daughters even learn how did like throw him in all the time. But it's because like you think okay the culture is going to try to brainwash your daughter right and you gotta get in there. I gotta get it so that she hears your voice whenever she sees that. Snow had story saying well. That's weird. Isn't you know like you want her to hear that? But we haven't really thought about like how our boys need that from US too. Yeah well I'm I'm just delighted that you've Explored this topic. It seems still in its infancy where we're talking about what we need to do to get boys. That's who decided with me too thing like on one hand it's created this imperative to reduce sexual violence super important but it's also created this really positive and exciting opportunity to engage boys in all these conversations about Saxon intimacy and gender dynamics masculinity in ways that we never have and that is like a tremendously exciting possibility to me. Yeah you're right I don't I can't imagine there's not a household where this topic doesn't come up comes up with mine all the time. I mean it's in the news all the time and it's one of the only happy accidents of the whole thing is like it is starting a conversation. That's long overdue right. And that doesn't by the way we're only be negative but can also be about the positive. How do we help people get their? Yeah well Peggy thank you so much. For flying down yeah. I'm about a third of the way to the book and I absolutely love it. It's just I like it as much is on the masculine. It's really great. I also like how Franken is thank you. I appreciate that you're talking talking talking to them. Nothing's kind of sugar coated. It's like now this is a glimpse. This is what it is Super Fun. It's great all right. Well thank you come back. And now my favorite part of the show the fact check with my soul mate. Monica Hegi huggy very enlightening. I liked her a lot. She was very interesting. We got into some debate. Shar you know as we do. Okay so Peggy. I emailed her because she left. An open ended question about masturbation which is a question that we've been asking each other for a long time two girls masturbating as much as boys or at all or whatever and she had said girls do much much much less and then she responded and said fact checking yes I was right. According to the largest study ever conducted on American sexual practices which came out in two thousand twelve. I think fewer than half of girls fourteen to seventeen had ever masturbated how th- of girls fourteen to seventeen fewer than half had ever masturbated. She said it's been a while since I cited that so I suddenly thought Dan could that be true? It seems like it couldn't be but here are the citations national survey of sexual health and behavior. More than three quarters of Boys Ages. Fourteen to seventeen say they've masturbated and less than half of girls have interesting So not not even double though right not like astronomical only tell something. One hundred percent of boys masturbated between fourteenth. I imagined that girls to aren't saying and then I would imagine there's even more pressure on girls to not say it. Yeah that is true. I mean yeah. What kind of poll would this be asking a fourteen year old girl? She Direct Jackdaw. Who's asking that question about a third of girls in every age group masturbate regularly of third in every age group. Okay Masturbate ruggles early. While the percentage of boys rises steadily with time. I'll that makes sense because they're getting from their wife. I think this is just boys. That would be my guess. I don't know that for sure. They probably get more comfortable and start talking about it with friends like they show us a shame because they're pretty open about jerking off from a young age. There's like a period. There's a couple years where you're first doing it. Where no one's talking about it. And then all of a sudden everyone just owns it and is there like bragging involved. No no no no no more like comparing like your finger in your boat while you're jerking core kind of weird things you've done stories is more swapping war stories trying to pick up tips. You know friends or anything out there that can increase this. Yeah yeah well. I'm glad really that you guys are talking about something it is really i. I can't I cannot really imagine what it would have been like to have been twelve and thirteen with pornography at the ready. You know I was like looking at Bra ads in like a normal magazine and using math. Yeah well to release better off. Probably my imagination's much better. I will have an effect on like a whole generation of imagination. Yeah because I had I had to fill in a lot of blanks. It was big full. Size like sears. Catalog wasn't even skimpy. Occasionally a while you hit the Jackpot and there'd be like a Victoria's secret thing laying around somewhere and you could really get sink your teeth into that. Did you ever sneak into Victoria secret and like look at the Tanis? Never no men in there and I'm always like I know I guess in theory. They're buying for lovers. I'm not sure it's true. Roy Ryan for themselves. I think so. Okay percentage of high schoolers who are athletes. The estimate is at fifty five point. Five percent of all high school students play a sport. That's way more than I would again meet to me too. But it also says those sports programs continue to grow. The rate has slowed over the past decades sports. Participation has increased by roughly a hundred thousand students per year. The forty thousand increase over the past year is the smallest since the late. Nineteen eighties mom. Well there's a decline in football participation in white communities of Ct. Yeah Yeah but Troublingly It's not having an impact on the minority groups that the numbers are the same if not increased feeling those those holes interesting. Yeah well but the Helen so tricky. Because that's like one of the things that I think is like dangled over communities that don't have poorer communities of like use sports to get out of that. Yeah get a scholarship to school. Did they. DidN'T Delineate whether or not the Lower Socioeconomic. Weitz were right. This was a big number for whites but I have to imagine the poor white kids are still doing it and that it's the same thing but it's just yeah but it's just a class thing okay. How does porn hub make money? So adscribed is a huge one ads. There's a premium membership sure. And then one said production companies pay to feature videos C. Porn Stars. That was my question. I'm not confused. Porn HUBS MAKING MONEY. Because they're like Youtube they've got ads but the producers of pornography unless porn hub is sharing that advert ad revenue with the people who post the clips chicken. Imagine they are but maybe I was more confused. It used to be the main porno and then they sold the DVD right and so they made money. They must make some money from putting on there. I think there were like when I was googling at their west. That came up saying Folk Young Teens in your neighborhood and yes then there was. There was a lot of stuff that popped up. Didn't WANNA see but it says a lot of how to make money on porn up but I didn't click backs I didn't know that's what we were talking about. But yes so. I guess there's ways I'm just shocked that there's still as much production Because you know the movie industry the revenue was cut in half with the end of DVD sales basically right and they've caught some back with the streaming services and in internationals grown but overall. That was just a big chunk that was lost and that was the entire model pornography or I don't know they're they're at any AMC cineplex's well maybe maybe will circle back around. And that's all that's all. Yeah it's interesting. I'm in general like philosophy one. Oh one you always debate pornography like the debate abortion debate pornography all these different things. I have always been pro pornography. I think it's liberty and are more who's GonNa decide what's pornography who's not yet the the porn that is most popular. Is I find disturbing. Yeah I find it to be very violent and aggressive and not even mirroring. What real sex is live? That's the big problem. I think I don't think I mean. Yeah we debate whether porn should be allowed or not. That seems like a different debate than just. Is it healthy? It's not. It's not good for these young brains to be exposed to this non reality of sex. These like juiced up fucking meat heads pounding some eighty pound year old. Yeah Poucher Office. Eighty pound gail so aggressively. Yeah it's a rough well. Even Peggy said something that I thought was so interesting. That Curls Watch A to of course but said girls mainly watch. It almost is like a playbook like this is how I should act during sex. I should make these sounds. I should do this. Which is yeah yeah? I believe that she's right. That probably a lot of girls. Watch it right but I also think Dr Alex you don't know it turns people on. I think a lot of women. Watch it for stimulation to so. I think it's a little. I guess I always. I always bristle a little bit. When there's some implication that women can't don't do anything on their own accord that it would just be to please? A man feels a little dismissive of like women's agency. I don't even know if it's just a please man. It's it's like this is my role in sex. What it's supposed to look like. This is what I faced. Looks like when you're in that because like I don't think it's about pleasing a guy it's just like well. I guess this is what it's supposed to be. It's the same thing that's happening with the boys of like well. I guess this is what it's supposed to be big dicks lasting a long time and all this other none of that's necessarily true normal or normal at all but I feel girls even just from seeing movies take away. An idea should look like and it. That's not necessarily true right. Never you've never watched pornography right. I know we watched it once in college. Like a bunch of US watched watched Joe. Yeah but I've never watched it seriously now right. You can't imagine it being sexy now. Oh Yeah I have enjoyed it at times but again. It's one of the few anomalies in my kind of addictive personality. Which one is. I can gamble normally doesn't get weird. Yeah and then also pornography of always been able to kind of take it or leave it. Yeah immagination as you said. Oh it's razor-sharp I need very little to go on now when you're masturbating you're fantasizing Do you does the fantasy have to be plausible because for me. It has to be incredibly plausible. Some people like jerk off to like movie stars and stuff. I can't do that or you can. It does not have to be plausible. And it's not even like it's not even like full full like that's why I think. Porn THE WHOLE PLOT. That's happening with porn. I just so. Yeah and it's just take me out. 'cause it's funny and stupid greatest writing but It's more just like flashes of images Mine is M- it's almost hard for me because I it has to be so realistic that I get really bogged down in the details. He applies really fix. Yes I'll like. Oh yeah that girls hot blah Blah Blah and this could happen and then I'm like Oh and then you know then she's GonNa tell a bunch of people and I'm GONNA I'm GonNa lose my life and then I just started I i. It's real rough so then you've got so then I'm like well go through. The greatest hits chair were real. Oh yeah and that's that's nice but I do wish I could just like. See a picture of a gallon really. Imagine the whole thing. But I'm GonNa meet this person. That's a bummer. Shrill complicated. It's all right well. Happy masturbating everybody. Thanks for listening to the program and You know if you masturbate listening to the program. That's fine with us. Oh we're we're pro. Masturbation is very pro masturbation she said so and do you think anyone Masturbate Susana this program though God I hope. So what do we say Dolphin word asparagus. So look if you listen to this episode just POPs Dolphin asparagus. That'll mean that you are in. That was if you've ever had sexual fantasies about adult but he didn't want to admit it just right Dolphin asparagus. And we got to at least fifteen dolphin asparagus and I have to imagine fourteen and a half of those were joking but I like to believe that point. Five of those was sincerely attracted to a man. This show. This show is going downhill. I love you him.

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