Cooper, Taylor, SCIFer Spy


Twenty nine thousand nine the Cooper Taylor skipper spy edition I'm David Plots of Atlas Cure I'm in Washington DC joining me from New Haven Connecticut hello and welcome to the Slate Political Gabfest Mark Tober twenty four most shocking impeachment testimony yet impeachment takes some dark strange turns this week then facebook is it even -servative legislators invaded the skiff the secure room where secret depositions were taken actually I guess they weren't taken in that room but they invaded the and from CBS is sixty minutes or he has now been inaugurated he has said I'm John and I'm John dickerson military aid to Ukraine which Congress had approved at in exchange for the Crean's promising or at least beginning an invest scheme that was again seems to have come out of Taylor's testimony and other places which was delineated which involved getting the Ukrainian Prime Minister see what has happened to mass protest why is there not more mass protests during this presidency plus we'll have cocktail chatter so much secure room to protest the secrecy of the impeachment inquiry and delay the impeachment inquiry for five hours I'm sure there are other crucial points that I have missed impeachment action this week there were a bunch of critical elements on Tuesday and Wednesday on Thursdays we tape no doubt more things are happening I probably or just terrible or merely wicked we will discuss then should should Democrat should progressive takes to the streets to try to end the trump presidency. I think until now the clarity there was clarity lacking in the accusation that President Trump withheld three hundred ninety one million dollars in military aid to the government if Ukraine until the Ukrainian president publicly announced a probe into the Biden's second there was me too so emily what was so important in what Bill Taylor the ambassador to Ukraine said and why is he an important witness minutes it is in fact John Dickerson Hello John dickerson Hello David Hello Emily Hello we are very very excited for your debut can I just say that yes we are excited we false they did know about a month earlier than previously believed contradicting the administration's claim and and then finally got finally a group of importantly Bill Taylor Ambassador to Ukraine testified that they're absolutely was of quid pro quo planned within the US government apparently the president trump orders to withhold to act out his announcement of approach on CNN they attempted to sort of extort him to go on CNN and gave him a script what he would need to say to announce his probe the next democratic debate or you practicing and they moderator they have not asked me to moderate maybe there has a lottery Gatien to dig up dirt on Joe Biden his son and also into the origins of the twenty six thousand election kind of following along a conspiracy theory that trump believes in that would discredit the Mueller investigation and the whole notion that the Russians helped trump win twenty sixteen election so what we have now from Taylor is this explicit quid pro quo they ordered pizza and brought their cellphones into this and they brought their cell phones yes I would like to talk less about the skiff because I feel that third the Ukrainians did indeed know about this quid pro quo demand one of the claims that the trump administration has made is that they have been quid pro quo that Ukraine's didn't even weren't even aware of it all four something big military aid as opposed to something smaller which was the withholding of a meeting between Ukrainian presidents Alinsky and trump so this is the quid pro quo trump has denied that all his defenders in the Republican Party have relied on and alert has a ton of credibility he has fifty years in public service he has served every presidential administration Republican and Democratic since nineteen eighty five folding and he spoke so much in sorrow rather than anger expressing deep dismay about the kind of ruining of America and he brought receipts he had this fifteen pages of testimony based on notes that he had taken while these events are on a strong support for Ukraine in the face of Russian aggression and it seemed clear that he was motivated by this feeling that the government has taken a disastrously wrong to me I I find this whole notion that the Democrats are doing some dastardly deed by holding these closed door hearings I don't buy that you know lots of turn and that is harming country and a part of the world that he has poured himself into and cares a great deal about so I mean it was pretty blockbuster day honestly we'll set the president has said this and directed chief-of-staff Mulvaney to do this and that does that matter no I mean I kind of wonder if the Democrats are making a political error because these witnesses seem to be very strong on the other hand I'm so glad we're not having to listen to these members of the house it's been reported out is that he did not have any direct order from the president to quid pro quo something that he was hearing it secondhand Inari aspects of congressional investigations take place behind closed doors see Benghazi run by the Republicans eventually these folks are going to happen to testify in public if we proceed to an impeachment trial in the Senate or they'll testify in public in the house before then this seems like a perfectly fine way to gather information we're going to hit it up hit back to it and it's like plus good yes people are rolling reference it on today's gap fast the a quasi legal political and legal gets to illegal stage when you get into the Senate and you do in fact have the chief justice presiding so it's it's not totally completely grandstand on television why they ask their questions so whatever I do however want to hear more backup testimony for Taylor's account interdiction between key aspects of his testimony and things that Gordon Sunland who's the kind of trump guy in the middle of this has told Congress and also Kurt Volker there fifteen pages of opening statement is that that the Ukrainians were dying at the hands of the russian-led forces as a result of the bending US foreign policy for his own political purposes in a way that we know one of the things that Taylor also reportedly testified about based on the well I want to interrupt on one important point which is that all of what you're saying may well be true I'm sure it is true but how do we know that you are characterizing something that Nicole but if you keep the eye on the ball which is that the president is is accused of misusing his job and the powers of his job for his own political purposes and then because he talked about a number of other officials who were in the room or on important phone calls in what he was describing and then there is Taylor what makes Taylor damaging is that Taylor has testified to something that now a whole host of other people from the From Vogler done in secret and has been leaked out so late well we do have these fifteen pages of testimony from Taylor and I you know I think brings into sharper relief a story that was already coming together and finally I would just say I think you were being they're doing it and also this isn't a crime and the key and venue in which it's being adjudicated is not strictly illegal one it's kind of it's The Washington Post Post the cutting of the funding yeah yes that the that the administration has consistently sought to pursue cuts to all the programs which witness over the last three years I just actually add pungent detail to that so one of the claims the species claims that the administration seems to be making its Oh this is it's essentially what Mick Mulvaney said out loud from the White House podium which he then had to had to backtrack or he and so the the story lines up what Taylor says simply the primarily the president being concerned with corruption Ukraine but if you look at the actual behavior of the administration as was reported I think in the Times anyway so you have the president who is bending US foreign policy for his own private political purposes and so that's the big problem and there's it's not just takes all these legs and it becomes and as we saw from the coverage of the State Department Investigation Hillary Clinton's e mails investigation itself gets a lot more coverage than the exoneration does episode as he he apparently testified for the purposes of of getting promises about this investigation and I should know quickly that it's the public promise of the investigation is politically powerful grit and people will have to put the facts on the table but one one thing we do know is we have a pattern of behavior of president trump's much of that pattern is what got in Ukraine and that this was solely about his dedication to the idea of corruption is inconsistent with the picture of Donald Trump that that people have had a chance to public all more than simply the private promise to investigate because of course as we know from other investigations once you sane investigations happening it off you know it the like trump officials whose accounts now sound fishy so John One of the few gaps in the Taylor testimony at least based on the facts emily so what John has just presented and what we've all seen this week is this this incredibly damning set of him elected and the idea that he would not be involved and not interested in a possible political benefit to his campaign from looking at corruption a delay in American military aid so the consequences here are real they are directly real in with respect to the delays that were all kinds of bad behavior human rights abuses in order to support countries that he argues are doing things in probably deaths and weakness of an ally of ours for personal political gain and distorting of American Fund Burn Policy possibly suborn another instance in which this behavior is so completely out of character from a character we know one thing about who doesn't change the way he not to president trump personally when you look at how polarized congresses and then the changing way in which people consume news I see a couple of things is the president does not need to just in the same way you know crime need to say exactly what they're doing it's possible but unlikely that we're going to see that switch because I think there is such fear of the Republican beasts in terms of its loyal inland to hill all testified to parts of this there is a co n and this was all in furtherance of of ratifying what the original whistle-blower said and I've suppose of alleged facts and reporting about the president's withholding of congressionally appropriated military to our allies who causing the has the only way to do it safely to do it in a pack and I think that Fox News would also have to basically simultaneously turn on trump either gene suborning the Ukrainian president who appear in media to lie about it which actually may in fact be a crime according to something and yet and yet and yet and yet there's instant that's alleged and and actually the president has has said out loud is that he cared so much about corruption that he delayed furthering US foreign policy which was to help you as you may change his positions but doesn't change this wildly so this is this is why you don't necessarily need to have the transcript in front of you the the facts that are known and how it's delivered from Watergate I think you see just like a different set of conditions on the ground for the political assessment a significant amount of outrage on the right about this any chance at that starts to change if it happens it's going to happen all at once so you were having fun with that question and and and the idea that this is all being happening in secret emily's answer is the right one of course this process will play out and it will not be crane to keep pressure against the Russians so in this case corruption was so important that US foreign policy was in a secondary position with respect to Turkey Russia Philippines he said the phone call never took place maybe it was a rare slip up from one of the most calculating politicians on the hill it could also be a sign that that Mitch McConnell is sending signals to in favor of of American foreign policy so just in terms of of taking the alleged acts and measuring them against what a what Donald trump normally does we have yet own perhaps above all others and I think he takes a compliment knows how not to answer a question we all know and become conditioned to what it sounds like when a politician gives a response the Arabia and probably some countries I'm not remembering the president to the acclaim of many has taken an extremely relaxed position towards corruption murder claimed told the president that his phone call with the president of Ukraine was perfect McConnell said this in front of a group of reporters McConnell said he never talked root out corruption in Ukraine and other places and the idea that this is actually a matter of concern corruption is actually a matter of concern this nistration is clearly nonsense put it to his own completely various political purposes it's you know revolting. It is an undermining of Congress it is an undermining of foreign policy where that you're talking about John What do you think one thing that occurs to me just that I wanNA finish off my point about the publicly observable behavior of the President what we have in this donald a majority of the Senate could be in peril so that's a lot of extrapolation from one answer but I think it's an interesting thing to while but look the president look you better clean this up better than you have so far or McConnell feels if you look at somebody like Cory Gardner running for reelection as a Republican in Colorado his numbers are Sean's military aid to to help the Ukrainians and a war against Russia and the president has has taken this and it is absolutely outrageous this is a subornation of American foreign policy something which Republicans Democrats a bipartisan bill to help Ukraine perfect phone call and not address the idea of whether they'd ever talked about it he could answer to a totally different question could blame the Democrats he could have talked about the the devil and the Deep Blue Sea didn't do any of that not much to lose is not really kind of standing up and saying firmly how absolutely outrageous this is can I very bad at the moment for reelection McConnell would have to lose a lot of seats in this election but if the president goes down in flames that's not going to be good for senators running and Mitch gotTa answer when he was asked did he have this conversation with the president did he say it was a perfect phone call he could have said given principal dancer I never talk about what I talk about what the president he could restated the point said that was and I think that happened this week in May not have even it may have been a slip of the tongue in which case I'm putting too much wait on it but Mitch McConnell was asked if he as the president had they mischaracterized what he said so as not to have to defend it or so forth and so on those are you know low grade things what congressman scalise is doing and others have done it as well is basically by definition impeachments overturn elections that's what they do so yeah and there's only one actually there's only one person president who could have been impeached taking he knows what the rules of the of the of the house procedures are important in part because they were passed by a Republican majority he knows how this works just the story you're getting is asks you to believe something that you're your own experience wouldn't wouldn't suggest the case on politics the most important thing and what that does I think is different than what what happens when when members of Congress are asked to stand up for something the president says and they they shuffle away and say I didn't hear what he said would have been elected as well and so forth actual right no well these well and Truman and so forth but they were ultimately elected not even Mitt Romney who I admire the heck out of is able to to speak up about this and being away spoken up a little bit he just hasn't saying that Republicans are being shut out of this secret process forty five Republicans have access to the to the transcripts of the interviews in which Republicans are taking place says of the exact opposite happening so you have a Steve Scalise in the leadership the whip of the Republicans in the house in this stunt that we mentioned at the top of the conversation answer doing something terribly wrong this is to to basically distort reality by burning the institution that he is a part of and that he has some obligation of stored can I just throw some some kindling on your On your roaring fire in fact what you have is at least you have couple of instance I thought it included I include I included Chester Arthur and John Tyler but a Martin Tunisian pointed out no actually since they were vice presidents stewardship towards and that is something that you can't go back against that's something you can't you know say well it was Donald Trump and he has a interesting way of talking this bringing their cell phones into the secure facility which is totally trivial question in some ways to trivial matter but it does show the way in which that preventing Russian aggression was a goal of the United States and lately that protecting classified information if it had anything to do with you know Hillary other circumstances just two completely grandstand a point and to that small act of destruction of destruction of the security of that facility his wife I think there's so much outrage about the skiff takeover not over the protests which seems legit but if the members of Congress is using something that's happening in the moment and and it's also causing other kinds of weird back bands Senator John Cornyn saying you know this impeachment is overturning an election is in some ways more significant than all the disruption that they're causing from their protest and they did it to distract right I mean they succeeded in changing appointed by trump George W Bush and originally putting the foreign service by Ronald Reagan but that actually none of that should matter a secretary of state should stand the headlines for at least a day so like good on them for that as a political move but I think the part of the reason may be your thinking we haven't and I'm not getting indignant at you because you're you're merely a tribune you're merely carrying a message forward in the world is what as secretary of Defense Mattis explained to me that is what sends the young man or woman up the hill in Afghanistan that these ideas and these now all deep state conspiracy and instead we have we have the cartoonish sinister trio of Giuliani and his henchmen going over to to run the president about The phone call the president of Ukraine and then when Nancy Cortez have CBS who has the original question said well then what he's allying McConnell you'll have to ask him Mitch the Foreign Service that is what propels people to join the CIA and do you know dangerous or Unsung work late at night that a shadow foreign policy which is supposedly better than what all these diplomats are doing. Can I jump on that point very quickly which is that Bill Taylor was and traditions and honor and character and duty that you feel to this shared set of beliefs that is what propels people into thirty year careers in at the State Department that American diplomats represent our interests and then you have this complete gutting of the State Department undermining of the idea of these diplomats working for the national interest from the New York Times magazine and Yale University Law School it is Emily Basilan hello emily hey sound like an announcer top diplomat and Ukraine and the reason Taylor was concerned that he knew that Marie Ivanovich had been pushed out in this unruly way by up for those officials because it sends a signal to the rest of his to the rest of the State Department and that's one of the things that Taylor was getting adding his opening statement which is that the norms the sense of duty and this That Taylor was writing about it in his opening statement that's what is at stake here there was another aspect of that openings is there they are willing to ignore rules ignore principles ignore things which they have held to be important demon I've been thinking about which is the Taylor describes his concern when Secretary of State Pompeo asked him to take over as the you're out this or at least I was last night is all the things down and up and up as down so you know we used to basically as a country agree that like Isis was bad does that Republicans are in the in the meetings that they stormed nevertheless he's presenting it to the public as if as if Republicans were not allowed as if the Clinton or her State Department was incredibly vital and now all of those things are lake up for grabs in the Republican Party and that another one of those where would not overturn an election and would that be Gerald Ford thing doing very good David very very good I win president it would be for it so anyway carry on to add onto Jonathan around skulason and they're burning down their own institution this said like I'm ready to impeach I mean of the Republican that's GonNa promote my fault by far by far but I'm saying even the person who has there is the just the the kind of civic outrage that should exist in our legislators it's shocking it's shocking that not even one of them and true anti corruption efforts in Ukraine and strengthening Ukraine against Russia if all of those values are still our policy and what we hold dear and Pumpkin Giuliani and his henchmen so he saint pump hill like basically I only want to do this job if it's clear that the United States support for Ukraine business technology and the big topics shaping the future from conversations with Elon Musk about Tesla's early struggles to Tim Cook's perspectives on government regulations. 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Our hiring can be a slow process as I've learned as a hirer my company cafe all tourist. Coo Dylan Moskowitz Emily Babylon was going on at facebook and with facebook's relationship with politics and with Congress and with conservatives and with so he could focus on the most relevant ones and he found his new director of coffee in just a few days with results like that no wonder that four or five employers who post on Ziprecruiter get a life you either have to speak in rhyme or sing everything you say which man there's so many more other good ones eighteen to small businesses in all fifty states helping them get online connect with new customers and work more productively learn more google dot com slash grow dylan posted his job on Ziprecruiter he said he was impressed by how quickly he had great candidates apply he also use Ziprecruiter Kennett rating feature to filters applicants the growth Google initiative is committed to helping American businesses like strider bikes use the web to grow that's why growth Google provides free digital skills workshops and one on one titians there seems to be a bunch of different streams all merging and it all again as usual it makes facebook seemed who made sure the whistle complaint with the blower complaint actually made it to Congress I mean it had its own route to Congress but he went basically around the Justice Department which was that if they were held by flunkies this whole story would be different Taylor's is one of them the inspector general the Intelligence Communities Name is Michael Atkinson he's the one syndrome and fill it out with a conundrum there we've got some great ones from you are ready so for example this is a real this is a philosophical question is will the devils heaven I don't know that's good that's a question for the good place got to watch a lot of that show to be able to answer for the rest of you a real Debate to use a plate word over facebook's current policies involving Leon appealing yes so facebook. CEO Mark Zuckerberg are emerging as a kind of villain and punching bag for both Georgetown University in which he comes out strongly for the values of free speech and he says look people don't want their ability to see different points of view ads political ads for the upcoming elections and also just like speech in general and so Zuckerberg tried to address this head on with the big speech the right and the left and they're in a difficult position but of course whose fault is that so what we've seen in the last week is the WHO mediated by any kind of company and so we're putting all these political ads out there for you to judge for themselves and politicians are lying well you can the deviating from its current fact checking policies for political as treating them differently than it treats other content them accountable this is of course not a new position this is the idea that facebook is a platform not a publisher is thus not responsible for a lot of the content that it puts out there in the world the problem with this of course is that on a number of fronts facebook is very much policing content and it is actually book is kind of stuck with Zuckerberg's own libertarian ideology he really does want to believe that his company is making the world better and that it's Oh I think congresswoman Alexandria Cossio Cortez did an amazing job of kind of showing Zuckerberg at his invasive and and just sort of unsatisfying in terms of the policies he has about political ads on the right you also have facebook vary policies toward campaign speech in general and ads in particular is GonNa work I I think it's not gonNa work I think that facebook is going to be a force is it was shaming but for national elections in particular the presidential election it's really hard to see how facebook running ads is a good thing but he for organizing on the right and for passing on false mostly falls largely false information if you look at the we're not going to run any political ads if they don't WanNa do that writ large they could say that about national elections for local candidates or smaller race for ill not good in the upcoming elections but Zuckerberg just doesn't want to see that and there is a pretty easy fix here which is that they could just say you know what are that senators like Josh Holly off Missouri are making their bones by accusing facebook of being biased against conservatives and I also think that face as you can see the value in people being able to promote their views on social media and maybe they'll more likely to be held accountable for lying which used to be something people didn't do an ad but then the question is are the real serious problems of our of our information sharing much deeper and and more problems here's the question that if people have stopped Penn penalizing candidates for lying haven't we gotten to a place where facebook and no new neither facebook nor addict than anything that he can fix so what I think is being overlooked actually think the political ad issue is pretty minor as a libertarian with a liberal bent is that he has created an environment very very useful for the right and for people that he actually finds loathsome and I'm Ben Shapiro is always showing up in the top of the those lists and that the that actually the this idea that that facebook is anyone else can solve that problem facebook can't plug every hole in the in the the dam which again is an argument for not trying to do anything most shared articles on facebook on any given day nine of ten of them are conservative semi truth at best kinds of articles things for really the exact opposite is what's happened is that facebook has now become an facebook in the facebook ecosystem have become so effective be a problem so you can see why he doesn't want that to happen but I think again the politics are pushing him in a particular direction David's essentially is is somehow suppressing the speech on the right is just nonsense what's happening is that is because there's a kind of I don't know if the goal ability it's not nothing and and there's a deceptive con quality a huge amount of the political advertising on facebook and you also can't track it the way you could track TV ads and so that's on facebook's reach those stories that are being sent around are not really a lot of them are not fact checkable I mean right fine purchase fight you know route in and get shared and and I think what Mark Zuckerberg doesn't really want to acknowledge Mark Zuckerberg who I think probably thinks of himself using things that would be considered not fact checkable to create division descent and discord and so that's a problem which they are I'll be hanging out together is that he's that the company is is fundamentally ecosystem for the right now not for the left and that's a problem and then add to that there's a willingness to believe if the if facebook is just a more effective ecosystem for for people in the right but it is where the ideas of the right and the more dangerous ideas A. R. Characterizations and framing and elevations of certain issues that distort political reality perhaps but that don't have a specific fact that can be about critical thinking and and that if you were any of these companies facebook or twitter or any of the others that you're there's an opportunity to use that can be pinpointed and therefore to remove them what what strikes me about facebook and I mean they did they did remove version of what I was saying because I think that if you look at the top ten things and by the way if you're not David you can tell me but if you look at those top ten stories those would seem to me to be beyond will gradually grow he because he's been doing these dinners with conservative pundits he'll have Tucker Carlson and other folks of that vein over for dinner and have these at that he gave a speech to his employees that leaked in which he talked about the idea of an antitrust action against facebook in a potential is the way or underplayed they're all these attacks on facebook from the right this notion that facebook is somehow biased against conservative when Elizabeth Warren Administration as an extra central threat to the company now that's a good natural stands for him to take like yes if the government brought an antitrust enforcement action against facebook and provoking strong emotions in particular anger I mean we've seen this on youtube and we see it on facebook and instagram and the other social media platforms Russians with them he's going to end up in that world he's going to you I guarantee you within three years we'll see him dinner with jared Kushner and vodka trump and the this discussion their incentives are not public service. Yeah the admitting that basically that their model benefits from bilge would be is the way in which it's algorithms promote insightful content even if it's not completely false like you're saying social media in terms of the way in which the government is abdicating its role so our government does not want to tell people what they can or can't see on social media UH recent network of russian-backed accounts that are another one of the challenges out there because the russian-backed accounts are not just fake they're they're actually you can argue that what should be happening here is the FCC should be helping facebook or taking over from facebook in making some of these decisions controls and so that's another way in which there is a bigger responsibility here and you know you can also think about this to show how she pretends to drink wine we will talk about other ways to pretend to do things and you can see that nice concerts to political ads then change their algorithm in terms of other things that are presented I don't think it's I just don't think it's a huge issue what I think is being overlooked these social media platforms have been after since their inception and politicians are looking for the same attention and they know how to keep it and maintain it which is the thing creeds no incentive for working together the incentives are for demonizing the opponents so that you can gain control the institution again so they are flowing with and profit are causing these tribal reaction information you know one of the things that facebook is just refusing to really face up to or at least I haven't seen it publicly do that is other problems to solve which they've done some things to try to get at but what what strikes me is that lack of creativity towards improving these more basic ideas by riling you up and fundraisers who send you solicitation selling you the wolf is at the door do the same thing this House and Senate which flips all the time between parties there's the structure the inciteful you mean incite yes not not not yet yeah sorry I just want to clarify yes content that has the effect of inciting people shen that the government can't do anything about this because then you have the social media companies in that role and that is not like the really great place to locate into row in the other direction slate plus members you get bonus segments on this podcast and on other slate podcasts coming from the attention shattering that's been a part of all of these other parts they should the way they advocated for say and come up with new ways that would actually promote or at least try you may not solve it but at least try to break people out of these patterns the but our government does regulate the airwaves and television and so in a way I think the most to me persuasive or at least like a day in tribute to John's wonderful interview his first sixty minutes interview where he got Christine Lagarde Vox than infected David Leonhardt and Michelle Cottle The New York Times all arguing making the same point that perhaps the key think that's going to happen not not that it's something another administration could really take on right like we have to get away from the with Christine Lagarde on sixty minutes all of a sudden this week there was a spate of pundits making the same argument I think it began with Matt Iglesias Hey to accelerate the removal of president trump or to accelerate his unpopularity is mass protests and yet there are not mass protests so John Lenient thing that sucker burke and say look the government has put us in this awkward position of having to figure out how much police speech and we don't want to be in that position apps some of the middling turnout but but I think as a as an organizational tool for people who are opposed to the current administration for inclusive immigration policy they should turn loose their energies and passions and powers towards creating this new fantastic solution a swelling of people in the streets in the way we see in Hong Kong and Chile and other countries there have been mass street protests good first step and it's the same it's the same natural reaction that And and you know the hunt for attention has been what all that seemed to be having causing real change causing real uproar Well I think the I mean why are there not mass protests right now we began the trump presidency with probably the largest protests in American history there was also to use public demonstration not necessarily to improve the conditions of the impeachment inquiry but merely as a way to capture voters register voters and is that even people who are in the business of paying close attention and despite fatigue are getting fatigued by the kind of it seems like impeachment right now could take on that character in a way that it didn't have the same kind of momentum behind it last summer when organizers Oh after the stoneman Douglas shooting there was this marvellous set of of protests around gun safety but at the moment impeachment has not caused constant pace of things in in the modern world I think secondly in impeachment is probably more abstract than if it's as specific right of yours one there is probably a certain sense of fatigue and proof of this is that some of the news organizations that used to catalog and every one of Donald Trump's lies have stopped doing it an electoral play which is this may not caused the removal of president trump from office in impeachment conviction but it will definitely galvanize just been too many of them and it's also quite taxing because if you care about the opinion of other people you actually need to evaluate whether what's being said is a lie or merely being spun but the point is important signal and so yes it's possible that that would change the way some Republican senators in swing states in particular if if you're not a fan of the president's Yeah I mean I thought not Iglesias initial article was pretty persuasive one of the things that sold every night so an agreed upon set of facts for the public none of these conditions apply now and that makes mass protests a more -servative and liberals in the same way there was no federalist society and you also had three nightly news networks delivering essentially the same set of facts into American that whether it's the right to vote or or that even the migrants being separated at the border from their children or with women in and and thinking about impeachment if they felt real concentrated public pressure and then it has this knock on effect is you're saying about galvanizing people for the election I think that what we're going to see probably among Republicans a switch to a process defense for trump right as the case reassured him and obviously Taylor feels completely sold out but I also wonder if Pompeo is really regretting that he it was also a kind of exuberance to trump and his supporters and they had so much fun making fun of Hillary Two thousand ten same same with the tea party there was this were part of the tea party cheap political mechanisms toward impeachment and let map point now was at the time the parties were much. Less polarized judiciary wasn't split between otherwise participate in the electoral process the way the tea party did seems to me to be a probably a smart way to go from a political perspective is the these protests will serve this electoral organizing function the way that the women's march in twenty seventeen hugely which abortion rights there's a direct personal relationship with either the specific issue or somebody you know who cares a great deal about this specific issue but I don't so I think that explains Emily do you think the purpose of that is to actually build support for impeachment and removal from office or is the purpose more of a bank shot or more of it a button down then you're going to start to see Republicans say well you know the election it's only a year and change way we should just wait for that and so then the rally is that the women's march was itself sort of a one day event but it ended up having this tremendous knock on effect because it gal inspired a whole bunch of people who would then become candidates and this kind of tried to do some impeachment rally so it does seem like that kind of pressure point could be really meaningful right now and give an outlet for their energy it is at stake here is just like getting media attention some sense of urgency that this is something that people are really galvanized by and horrified by and for impeachment get stronger based on testimony like Bill Taylor's and if this case for a real bro Withholding military aid becomes complete as law is whichever side is having more fun and then election wins so if you look at a sign of people having fun tired groups that then helped organize the twenty eighteen election so do you think that the these protests are removal protests are they are fundamentally for electoral purposes for two thousand twenty I mean I think it's both the argument Matt was making is that Watergate was all about moving the kind of technical insider DC is if they happen would become an important touchstone for that circumstance as well as for impeachment one of the things that I fun if you if you look at twenty sixteen there there was so much delight in the trolling of Hillary Clinton there was so much I mean there is a nastiness to what trump was doing but please come back to when presidential elections pop up or even when when any national election comes up plots I'm GonNa give you guys plots as law like dot com slash gap as plus you can't see it actually because we're podcast but you can hear us talking about it if you go to play dot com slash gabfest plus become a member today but you could see John's seven we have a tea Party Tea Party movement and twenty two thousand and eight with Obama on the rallies around Obama similarly ninety two with Clinton there was this again this joyfulness in what Clinton was doing that got people excited nineteen eighty with Reagan whenever I look at where the kind of Glee is case this Spring The New York Times calls in the dark a virtuosic feet of reporting you can catch up on in the dark now on apple podcasts or wherever you choose to listen we just wrapping this up there there were these efforts at impeachment rallies earlier they did not really work how how is it you think if they're going to be impeachment indignant about it which they clearly are so I feel like until the Ukraine scandal impeachment was divisive unpopular and not clear like they're just rallies today that there will be organizing principle for them what is it that actually will get people to show up in the streets around this as opposed to just being wasn't a clear case for it and none of those things are true anymore when you look at the polls when you look at the facts it's just all much more galvanizing so to me the everything that happened regarding impeachment discussions before like the end of September I think is just in a different box than what's happening allison it also so so there's plenty plenty of in two thousand two thousand eighteen in two thousand ten there's tons of malice but it is where is the where is the the kind of joy and chain may change the dynamics and that but mostly it's going to get people fired up and and and loose and they're gonNA have funny signs and great memes that once again which is a strong disagree based on the experience of both the gun rallies and the women's March interact and the way that people dressed it was filled with I mean same thing with the tea party the tea party was was at heart was a very dark movement and a lot of ways we're going to spill over into the twenty twenty election and that will help Democrats a lot that's plots of law but the problem is that the people who are ironic and stuff like that since then this is about corruption it's like pretty simple and a lot of people don't like corruption or at least like that's been the American way in the past you're the corollary to the plots law is Nixon's law which is whenever there's an organization aligned against acts that on X. whenever but there's Ferber many the pleasure of company and the and if you looked at what the signs were in the wit and the the kind of the the way in which people music precondition for the joy that you're describing tend to maybe not be get out there in March types and that there's probably a twitter says there's a there's a social media sapping that takes place where people feel like they can kind of say their witty thing on twitter and move on can I stop you there likes to help you get your best rest one night at a time casper products are cleverly designed to mimic human curves providing supportive comfort for all kinds of bodies he's having he's having glee meanwhile somebody listening to the podcast has thrown their head set across the room for the first time this is is to reactions that one people who are ironic and and sort of looking at things with sideways Glint of a kind that seems RPM art people are Iran you were saying sorry John we're talking yes you're talking about what so many organizations aligned against everything I'm like previous that you Harare okay support for the past comes from Casper you spent a third of your life sleeping so you should be comfortable while you're doing it Casper's asleep brand that makes expertly designed David is very pleased with himself right now he is he's having fun having having Glee Everglades Fun I win the podcast. The original Casper mattress combined multiple supportive memory foams for quality sleep surface with the right amounts of both zinc and bounce with over twenty city that people feel is what I'm talking about well then if that's your the that's a different definition joy I thought you were using so under that definition is there can be darkness in in this there's a it's the the kind of sense of collective fervor and enthusiasm and and Khanaqin their products like pillows and sheets to ensure overall better sleep experience Casper is free shipping and hassle free returns if you're not completely satisfied you can be sure of thousand reviews and an average of four point eight stars across Casper Amazon and Google Reviews Casper is becoming the Internet favorite mattress they also offer an array of rallies. Oh my God you're absolutely wrong if you those were joyful occasions there it's not it's not that there isn't sombre but the the collective out again get one hundred dollars towards like mattresses by visiting Casper Dot com slash gap vest and using code Gabfest at checkout terms and conditions apply support purchase with Casper's one hundred risk-free sleep on trial get one hundred dollars toward select mattresses by visiting Casper Dot com slash gap best and using GAB fest. That's an whenever I see that Oh these guys are going to win and and so to me the point of the impeachment rallies is may it might actually change voting on impeachment gabfest comes from native native create safe simple effective products that people use in the bathroom every day they create products trusted ingredients and trusted results making the switch to aluminum free deodorant does not mean you have to compromise product performance native deodorants are filled with ingredients found in nature such as coconut oil shea butter tapioca starch less is more with native they have fewer simpler ingredients a native comes in a wide variety of enticing sense for men and women are gleefully maliciously planning your street protest in your local tavern. What will you be chattering to your friends about that's twenty percents off your first purchase when you visit native Deodorant Dot Com and use Promo Code Gabfest during checkup? Let's go to cocktail chatter when you at risk because native offers free returns exchanges in the US for twenty percent off your first purchase visit native Deodorant Dot Com and use Promo Code Gab festering checkout like eighty eighty percent forty thirty nine side David I just drop them they released limited edition seasonal sense throughout the year they also offer unscented formula and Baking Soda Free Formula For those sensitivities and you can try these yetter ends with like dogs and not like people not the PU flinging engaged on twitter and it's an interesting piece that can it contains this fact well I guess I will put the crowd what do you think is the percentage of adults who can name all three branches of government Oh God it's going to be really low mike over here and that'd be very interesting to see what people so they can like but do they know what they do and so forth so what John Dickerson two things one is New York Times piece called centralism has cancelled highschools debate the impeachment inquiry And it's about a and sometimes these kinds of Gotcha questions like you could understand that we have a judiciary a congress and the president in not know that we call those things it's Times piece about a challenged high school and the debate they had about impeachment in history class in which they had to actually behave miss that's kind of technical question like I mean I have to I marinate in this all the time but I and I I know the answer just reassure everyone was formed with a with a system of shared powers and that it was meant to be slow and inefficient so that the there would be minority rights and the majority wouldn't And if you're asked they might say that it was done by Annenberg CNN Berg Civics Knowledge Survey we've talked about this before and whether and also then wouldn't run roughshod and also that a minority wouldn't be in control and then whether that's under assault right now and so forth and so on so Anyway I would like people to understand what they have the power to change their vote like how are interlocking mechanism of separation of powers works they will have added the pollster asks or maybe even the way a perfectly divine design poll at ask but what if you understood the content is it more important another three branches or understand that the government will it's called I don't care about that just like some sense of like the president picks judges the Senate confirms them like that's how the third branch gets construct right just like some ideas excessive sexual behavior the war time of life kicked in the head by a horse over the day one that was posted this week was reasons for admission and these are the list of reasons for admission to a lunatic asylum in the eighteen hundreds and the tweet says that reads it's a very enjoyable twitter account to follow and So I encourage everyone to do so Labat's what's your chatter what leads to what in the system the more fun part of my chatter is a twitter handle that I follow called history lovers club and like a list of potential metal band names any didn't include things like immoral life ill treatment by husband egotism inches of government right yep it depends on how the questions frame that's quite a fair point what do you think the wrong answers that people give because I bet people say the military's of Renton government we should come back to it again probably some point but is so what's the point like is this just who cares as emily I think is implicit in what you're saying which is okay maybe you can't name them in the way I have a kind of Trolling David Plots Chatter today is my outrage of the week is about a bill that the resort and it has things on it like eight hundred seventy five I don't know if these are pounds or dollars for additional tea and coffee due to axeing mental powers political excitement I want to know the cases of people who were admitted for these reasons anyway but I the the bigger point is to this time but the notion that you know we are having foreign governments pay into president trump's private properties for services that yeah so the so it's a case involving president trump's tax returns and he's fighting subpoena around this on he demands I just it just makes me furious I even knew it was nothing can be done and his lawyer William Convoy said that is correct nothing can be done it is shocking lakeside trip the president trump made to Ireland and this bill which comes to over a hundred thousand dollars is to the Irish police from trump's golf got so many murders to solve they can't be implemented additional t outrageous the amazing arguments that were made by president trump's personal lawyers this week in front of God have talked about that the grounds that he as president has absolute immunity from criminal indictment investigation over his taxes and his attorney than said in response trump golf links in hotel in Ireland sent the Irish police cover I'm I'm GonNa keep going they had to cover this

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