EP13: The Time History Caught Up With Greed
You're listening to the marketing rescue podcast the weekly show where we take a look at some epic marketing failures. Along with some pretty amazing and rescues and comebacks, and now your hosts, you go and chat. Hey Chad. Yeah parking. We learn from history. How can we learn from history? That's probably. The quintessential question of our time right now because we tend to know your, yeah, we have to keep making the same mistakes over and over and over and over again. I don't know that's a good question is a really cool article that I found an or Katya publishing com where they talk about the six things you can learn. History helps us develop a better understanding the world. That's very relevant right now. He's help us understand ourselves. Very relevant to history makes us learn to understand other people that's not of today's Day and age history teachers, a working understanding of change stinks changing right now, nothing but change. The news today. It's like they say the only constant is change. Yeah, exactly it gives us the tools to be a decent citizen, and lastly it makes us better decision-makers. I agree one hundred percent. Well the story. We were brought to talk about today I. Wish they agreed with you to. Figure that. So. Are you guys keeping up eating right four five months now? I haven't seen you in person I. See every single day my video. But I haven't seen in person yet. Yeah, it's been a long time. It's been too long. Cautiously excited with some of the things reopening. and. Maybe have lunch together one of these days. Yeah, how you guys preparing for the flying sharks coming in July. Well. Shark Week and shark NATO is is such a big deal over here. That I'm just expecting something to happen whether it's nuclear bombs inside of sharks, or who knows what something's going to be coming? It's twenty twenty three. We have the elections. Look forward to as well on November, so we've got action packed twenty twenty ahead of us. Get Out your Bingo cards. Yes let's dive into today. Interesting story, right? We talked about what you can learn from history and I think the marketing team, the executive team and this company Lucci just exact opposite and chose not to learn anything. Yeah, so let's actually start with a little bit of history. In two thousand five to Stanford students developed a new e cigarette product. They called plume in two thousand seven. They form a company to manufacture and sell their e cigarettes, but it took the modal while to get going and eight years later they changed the name of their product and their company. The company became packs, labs, and the e cigarette. You WanNa. Take a stab at guessing the name Nico Do. Ding Ding Ding. Jewel, so in the summer of two thousand. Fifteen Founders. Adam Bowen and James moncey launched the jewel electronic cigarette brand in fall of twenty seventeen, the newly named jewel labs had a two hundred employees, and by the end of the following year they had fifteen hundred employees, so the company is valued at fifteen billion dollars at this time following six hundred and fifty million dollar investment round. In December, two thousand eighteen jewel sold thirty five percents of the company to Altria. largest manufacturers cigarettes formerly known as Philip Morris Company and the city five, but seen they sold for twelve point eight billion dollars thirty five percent. So. That's a lot of growth from twenty. Into two thousand, eighteen, twenty, nineteen, th explosive crazier? At the time that revenue. I think it was about two billion dollars per year and Wells Fargo set the. City eight billion dollars in two thousand eighteen. Wow to celebrate their deal. A tree gave jewel. Two Billion Dollar Bonus dispute among their fifteen hundred employees, which is one point three million dollars for first sight. It's crazy. That is insane. Wow, yeah, well. I mean. It's no wonder. We see what we're about to see in the story that we're about to unfold, because there's so much money being tossed around, and it's definitely the greed get greedier. It's unfortunate because you would think that. Jeeze, you know. One point three million dollars. That's gotta be enough, but I think as we've seen time after time. It's never enough, and that's how greed works. It doesn't matter if you have a million a billion. There's always a hunger for more so this sounds like just. Hey, it's another amazing. Silicon Valley Success Story and potentially a brand that is. Maybe even doing something good reducing cigarette smoking, which is the number one killer? No, it doesn't. It sounds like purdue. Very familiar I agree with you. The more money companies make the more greedy tend to get. And by the end of two thousand seventeen. Was the most popular e cigarettes in America, a year later, Jewish seventy two percents of the entire e cigarette market, which is massive. Public sentiment was growing in favor of e cigarettes as a helpful, potentially less harmful alternative to smoking, because be smoking, still a problem in the US. And many people so e cigarettes as a legitimate offering in the smoking cessation markets, a new addition to the lines of patches and gums. They could help people break the habits. But US regulatory agencies including the FDA at significant concerns about. was using this products and that's where the cookie starts to crumble. So to understand their concern. We have to go back even further. We've gotta go back twenty years so in nineteen ninety-seven. The FTC files a lawsuit against a company called RJ. Reynolds company the owners of camel cigarettes. And this lawsuit of course was for specifically marketing to children with the JOE camel cartoon campaigns. So quoting from a New York Times article from that period, the agency asserted in an administrative complaint that the company violated Federal Fair trade practice laws by promoting a lethal addictive product to children and adolescents who could not legally purchase or use it. So earlier that year, the Liggett group makers of the element chesterfield cigarette brands had acknowledged that the industry actively targeted minors in their marketing because they knew almost all habitual smokers started as teenagers. So Rj Reynolds was eventually find fifteen million and Kansas District Court said the company was highly blame worthy and deserving of significant punishment, so they find them fifteen million dollars significant punishment that was like a slap on the wrist right? Yeah, yeah, so the results of these and other lawsuits. Is that over time? Things started to snowball and pick up, and then we start to see significant prohibitions on the marketing of tobacco to minors, and as a result, teenage smoking had been on the decline for decades, leading up to Jules Rise around twenty fifteen, and then that big upward swing, and twenty seventeen in two, thousand, eighteen, so jewel. Has This opportunity in? In front of them for at least what they think at the time would be actually growing into a potentially more healthy market, potentially a force for good to help reduce cigarette dependency for people who are addicted to nicotine and kind of transfer dependency over to what kind of the general public and possibly jewel at that time was a safer mechanism for nicotine delivery. Inflection Point, right? They could have learned what happens. To other tobacco companies, because ultimately they in the same space right, yep might be a different products, but the product innovation within the same market, audience but matter. But they chose not to do that. They literally chose not to do that so. October twenty eighteen study found that nine point five percent of teenagers, the age of fifteen to seventeen. And eleven percent of young adults ages eighteen to twenty one. We're actively using Joel just. Think about that for a second. That's ten percents of all kids between age fifteen and seventeen using their products. and the teenager seventeen to fifteen or sixteen times more likely to be jewell users than twenty five and thirty four year olds. The same study said that one in five students between the age of twelve and seventeen at seen jewel being used in school. So these kids were actually starting to use the word juuling to describe e cigarette use, so it's very much like q tech's nail Polish. Turn, the brand name into verb, and the only time that happens is when it's getting used over and over and over that this get. So, why were kids increasingly using jewel and other e cigarettes? During this time right? Well I think it's clearly because they didn't understand the risks. A Twenty Fifteen Stanford University study. Analyzing Adolescence perceptions of risks and benefits of conventional cigarettes and e cigarettes found that some of the participants actually believed that e cigarettes did not contain nicotine only water vapor, and I have to admit when I I kind of saw jewel in particular. I actually thought because of the way that they were marketed that there was nicotine free versions, because so many kids were using them, and that's like the whole crux of why. This is so crazy is that? They didn't know what the risks were still marketed them. As if the did know what the risks were and marketed them as a supposedly safer alternative to cigarettes, so there early marketing efforts just to kind of paint. The picture is they're using a lot of digital media. Especially social media, they have these images and themes with young people, and they spend thousands of dollars to promote jewel as a smoking cessation tool to kids in schools, so let's actually just listen to a clip from this CBS news article that talks about how they actually started marketing towards kids. Children as young as eight years old were targeted by jewel online and through summer camps, according to a Congressional investigation, the company spent more than two hundred thousand dollars to sponsor so wellness camps. Summer Camps Seriously Summer Camps Oh man, it's horrible. Yeah, Oh man. This is kind of near and dear to our hearts, because we two dads in because little kids and. They come back from like a summer camp in juuling all of a sudden and new finance, a company actually promoted. It's while they were on the camp I'm thinking back burning stuff down at this point. Yeah, it'd be so mad. I would be so angry. Yeah, so one of the things that happens in our school. District is in fifth grade. The kids all go on a one week. Science camp and This kind of right passage it's the I kind of like overnight camp kind of thing that the kids in in the district do and so. Everyone's super excited to go on. The science camps like imagine if they come back from this first trip away. As a fifth grader, right? And, unfortunately Julius, actually targeting kids as young as third grade to Scrapie, so let's listen to this clip about that. It's very popular. A lot of kids do in fact roughly one in five high school students admit they have tried vaping last year, and according to the National Institute of Drug Abuse Seven out of ten teams are exposed to e cigarettes through ads. They see them on a lot of Youtube Center. That's like showing on videos for teenagers, so it's really like targeted to us in my opinion. Oh Jeez, yeah I mean when you're targeting children as young as eight and running you too bads against teen videos. It's it's just deliberate. Everything you want to say boss marketing kids, but if you're tactics. Are Marketing Katie's. Pet. Products right so they're in the US. There are two different types of cigarette flavors. You can buy nicotine and Menthol, and that was put into place by. The FDA, years back with a whole Philip Morris. Big Tobacco lawsuits on so Jew has not anymore, but they had these crazy. Flavors Candy Mukhsin Cookies candyfloss. Puppy. And just think about that. If you're a chain smoking adults, you're not gonNA. Start Sucking on a cookie and cream Jewish vaping USB stick. That goes against what they were saying. They were doing, but their actions were speaking very differently. It's disgusting well, and the tactics worked. They were very very effective, so from two thousand seventeen to two thousand eighteen. The CDC reports a seventy eight percent surge in vaping among high school students. It's now four million high school students who went in every five that are actually vaping at this point from one company. One Company. Can I don't WANNA use. Words what destroying a kid's future, but he can drastically impact that kids future. Yeah, and jewel says that their mission is to simply reduce cigarette smoking amongst existing cigarette smokers existing adult smoker, right? But that message is clearly been called into question for right obvious reasons so in two thousand seventeen. The CDC says it's unclear as to whether. E. Cigarettes are even as effective as getting people off of cigarettes as proven FDA approved therapies like patches, gum lozenges so now there's this debate of okay well, even if there is some value to getting people off of the cigarettes and onto a different delivery mechanism, it might even be as effective as a patch. So what's the point and while some people might think that vaping might be safer than smoking? They're still a huge lack of research. About the long term health impacts. It still contains nicotine. The juice packs. Ingredients are often unknown and contained chemicals like we saw this last year with all of these kids getting sick. Vitamin D you see you. Something laced with it or something weird. They could explain for a really long time right? Yeah, and so you just don't know what you're getting. And it's dangerous. Dr! Jack Ler, a Stanford, university researcher who co-founded Group that really rolls of your tongue, Stanford research into the impact of tobacco, advertising or the acronym roles tongue SORTA. Theresa. They really really dug into this. And they maintains an archive. Old Jewels deleted social media posts and I say deleted because will. Delete it at this point. All the social media accounts two and a half thousand tweets, four hundred facebook posts an instagram post, and this is definitely a theme that we see on the show about when a company sells deleting the social media, platforms and content. Something's up. We've seen a multiple times right now. Yes so material from jobs, websites emails print campaigns dating back all the way to two thousand fifteen and Jacqueline said they clearly targeted the youth especially in the early, two, thousand and fifteen in two thousand sixteen. They used attractive model socializing. The jewel device before article by kindred Kaya says jewel contracted advertising agency grits creative group to identify social media influences aiming to recruit uses with at least city thousand followers to establish a network of creatives to leverage as loyalists for its brand, according to an internal email. And when we think of who is being influenced by influences on social media, who are those old people trying to quit smoking or well I. mean the thing is on instagram. The minimum age create an account is thirteen. So that's the problem is social media is? In general, especially with influence or marketing on platforms like instagram. You can't control what ages are going to be interacting with your content, and how it's going to be perceived at especially if you position it towards the younger end of the demographic spectrum which they were with a minimum. Age. Of Twenty five influence or marketing campaign was supposed to be adults twenty five to thirty four. Year just butting right up against that younger demographic, but that is also the platform. It's thin what you do with your creative on the platform which I think was like in my mind the nail in the coffin year, so they use. The teen oriented clothing music. And? They use hashtags and partnered with us or into brands. But I think the thing. That really shocked me when I was doing the research for this. Is this INSTAGRAM AD found? What an orchestra that yeah! This is actual copy from an actual influence or add that actually triggered a lawsuit from the Massachusetts Attorney, General and reads. Mom It's a USB drive and we'll put this image does add in the show notes. It is literally a USB drive. It looks like the one end is got a plug. The male plug of a USB adapter in the other side is the small little. What looks like USB drive, but it's actual Joel device. So I ask you. Chad, mum. It's a USB drive. Targeted towards this is just mind blanked me. This is why I just feel like they didn't learn from history, and they made a conscious choice to market to kids right, so let's read the second from the top comment on this instagram post and says. I told my dad that about my old jewel, and he actually fell for it. L. Right so it's obvious what's going on here who they're interacting with how they're pushing it forward. And from a product marketing perspective, it's not just the ads. It's also the way that they've actually physically designed products and partnered with juice companies to design products that look like highlighter that you would use it. School pens lipsticks. They have these cartridges that the box looks like it would be an actual box of cookies, and this was one that looks like a mock shake right? It's the actual thing looks like a cup of milk. Shake the you from right yet. The actual shape of it and it has one of those little plastic. The stuff goes through. You know when you're at the seven eleven and. She's so. It's very very carefully crafted and designed to appeal to children. You know this is really what blows me away because we spent so much time in coming up with marketing strategies for clients trying to solve complex problems right now and the process that happens is we all get together? We have a brief that somebody put together. It's key insights tennis and we beat it up and we come up with a strategy that's measurable executable within the budget time everything it'd be. So, somewhere, a group of people were sitting down. and. They were brainstorming this right. Hukou, we make up product to appeal to a fourteen year old. What can we do and I? Just I really struggled to comprehend that, and then to take it a step further. The brief had to also say in order to get these kinds of products. It had to have in there, and how do we make it such that you can hide it from your parents? With things like highlighter, and USB's and lipsticks than it led us back into the overarching communication strategy, the bigger thing is what we say to the general public about our products, and how we say that we geared towards adults that we want to help. Stop Smoking. It's it is just. It is just sinister, but luckily in the US, we have the FDA that come after the like this and. My wife listened to the purdue episode the day and she asked me why if the do anything? This. And is very similar as well it. Didn't come down. To degration that I would have expected from them in the circumstance right and I think we see the FDA. Start to step in in this situation in two thousand seventeen, which I think was also late to the game. And it's still an ongoing situation where they're still on going back and forth with jewel, but as it starts to be this outcry from parents who are starting to really. Have a lot of problems with their kids. Because of this, you know, there's multiple lawsuits that are now being filed by parents of underage users, claiming that the company is deceptively marketing, the products is safe and targeting underage users and also targeting non smokers, which is a big. Part of calling jewels bluff on their messaging, and they claim that jewel is as addictive or even more addictive than cigarettes, so part of this is that Jewish proprietary nicotine salt formula enables higher nicotine absorption into the body than traditional cigarettes or other e cigarettes that use nicotine liquid. So not only. Is it marketed to people who wouldn't normally have developed nicotine addictions, or had any sort of relationship with nicotine, but it's a more addictive form that's going to cause mood swings and a lot of behavioral problems. It just what you need in a teenager. What you want, you're trying to get a fifteen year old successfully through high school. Crazy so many observers steering this time they saw this clarity's the eerie similarities, both in Jules appetizing and the regular response an article last year, in the San Francisco. Chronicle detailed one teens journey to tobacco addiction. And her family's attained to hold you accountable, stating that quotes mounting lawsuits against jewel reminiscent of early tobacco legislation. Getting back to the brief usually brief this background and research right right. So, what was the research here that? Hey, we're going to try to do. What Big Tobacco did we gonNA try to land us is and exactly the same spots. He said earlier when we started. You say they had a choice. They could have delivered on their promise trying to get people smokers. Away, from actually inhaling smoke, the grains has cancer, and they decided to go after children. Right mind blank to me. Has To get back to greet task. Get back to the money that they're making yes, and the fact that there is a systemic problem in that. When we look back at what happened within the tobacco industry. Fifteen fifteen million dollar fine is not a deterrent. There is no multibillion dollar corporation throwing around one point three million dollar bonuses to every single employee that is going to be deterred by fifteen million dollar fine. That's like planning your taxes. You put it aside. You know it's going to come, and it doesn't break your company. It's considered a cost of doing business. Disgusting and that's part of the problem, but the regulatory scrutiny is heating up and in two thousand Nineteen House Democrats requested internal documents from jewel is a part of an investigation into the broader epidemic of Teen vaping Representative Raja Krishna more from Illinois is the Chairman of the House oversight? Subcommittee on Economic and Consumer Policy requested documents relating to jewel social media practices their research on jools impact on health and the deal with Altria as part of the investigation so their response Joseph's response. Hey, hey, hey, you're dog's name is Jules. Does realize that yes, well, that's what happens when you have three little girls and your wife and your girls get together to decide what the name of your dog should be. Which is also a female guess crazy? Crazy. He should have gotten like a pit bulls. And the name jewels is like rubies and diamonds. So a little bit different anyway in response to the FDA crackdown, the company announced that they would be using real real customers in their ads versus models. which may be a good move because these models like super young, and it just looked like teenagers using their products. In late two thousand eighteen JUL shutdown their social media accounts and again. That's massive warning signs when that happens. In Twenty Nineteen Jul agree to make changes to its youth. Practices as part of a settlement with the center of environmental, health. It states that the center can sued you if they violate any portion of the agreement. The agreement states that jewel not, and there's like a few different things. APPETIZER promote its products in media with audiences that fifty percents or more under the age of twenty one. Markets or advertising social media except Gills Age restricted youtube channel so hang on, so they can still promote its products to children as long as not fifteen percent or more of the audiences, children that just can't courts, and if they could court the. We have the option to potentially something about it, but we're not. Committing anything a little bit of a gag order. If you do this, this might happen. That's interesting. Okay, so yeah I mean basically. They say that they are not supposed to use models under the age of twenty eight. And that they cannot advertise within a thousand feet of schools or playgrounds. because. Thing we're summer, S. It's crazy, so you can't sponsor. Advertise it sporting events or concerts that allow people under the age of twenty one. You can't pay for or. Permit Company. Employees contractors to appear, at school or youth oriented educational programs is really sounds like a joke, doesn't it? Just the fact that this is even needed right? Yeah, you can't continue to use the terms adults only or not for use by minors, which actually has been shown to entice minors to use jewel products. And they have to replace that with the phrase, the sale of tobacco products to minors prohibited by Law You can't allow unlimited purchase of your products anymore. You have to set clear limits on book sales, and lastly the settlement requires the jewel has to continue its secret shopper program with specific rules on actions. The company must take if a store sells a product to a jewel secret shopper without asking for proof of age, so the fact that this exists is not surprising. Jewel continues to play both sides. The fact even put in place in the response to the lawsuit jewels spokesman. Not your dog jewel's jewel's spokesman said. Jewel labs do not believe that the case has any merits and all defended vigorously. This is an article in the Forbes magazine. The company also made more prominent warnings. They launched an educational campaign. Such a joke colds. What parents need to know about Jew? And this was supposed to combat the under a series. And, let's actually play a quick clip your from the CEO Talking about just this. Blow America amass tool. See your jewel, the makers of America's favorite electric cigarettes. We recently come under fire for advertisements, targeting young children, and as the face. This company I just might tell you. We are so sorry. We would never mark the developing brains America's future because. That's children. They're our future so special apology to all jewel users a free pack for expanded flavors. That means you get Cherry Berry Unicorn. Blue Raspberry Rainbow and minecraft! Okay, so you can see clearly doesn't take seriously. This is ridiculous. But as a as a marketer, desist like ridiculous to me that this even exists, but what's even more ridiculous is that that is not the CEO. and. By College Humor Anyway. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Let's let's listen to a real interview of the. I think it was on the CBS morning show. Take a listen there. People say jewel is toxic. Is it. The product of the company. Interesting that you would. You would ask the product. We toxicology test all of our products. So when people say the long term effects of vaping are not known. That's true. That's true. That's a true statement. Yeah, he's right. The fact that he answered the company or the products is telling and during this time. They knew that it was toxic. It's public right now, but there's no no way that in Twenty Nineteen August twenty and nineteen the CEO of the company. had. No. This was toxic and they were marketing to children right, and when you listen to the entirety of this interview. It's pretty clear that he knows what's going on. He doesn't really try to defend it. He just Kinda, says yeah, yeah. I see why people think that's problematic. Yeah, my see why people think that's problematic and doesn't really have any response really for question after question. That's post to him willing to interview in the show as well so let's actually play another clip from that interview. Fair to say if you. If you knew this to be a toxic or dangerous substance, you wouldn't be selling. I can't imagine we had. The data supports that we're selling a product. That is damaging to the American public and we had that data that we continue to sell that product reason I have to ask because the tobacco industry doesn't exactly have a great track record when it comes to telling the truth and the American people about what they're selling. Yeah, there is a lot of segregation that comes with us later means while we wouldn't play now. You ask same abouts. Do you think people might not trust you because you've got his billions and billions of dollars from altria Philip Morris? And why did you do that and you to say it? Because we discussed it as leadership team and we felt it was the thing to do for the company, because we'll have access this money and their distribution senses and. It is just from the outside. From a marketing space, this is really just disgusting. It is blatant lies and destroying. Kids it's disgusting I. Find it a really. Discussing. Yes. Thank. Annoys me is one of those episodes that we're going to walk away from and I'm going to be depressed for the next two days like I was with. Right so the next one needs to be uplifting in a great comeback story. With you. That's a good plan. Yeah I mean you can. You could just tell that they know what they're doing and don't care so jewel co-founder Muncie said. Underage use is an issue. We desperately want to resolve any underage consumers using this product are absolutely a negative for our business. We don't want them. We will never market to them. We never have and they're stealing life years from adult cigarette consumers at this moment, and that's a shame so early last year jewel announced a ten million dollar advertising campaign targeting current. Current adult smokers and trying to rebrand jewel as a product to help people switch in March. Jewel started it self to employers and insurers to help. Their employees stopped smoking cigarettes. This enterprise level to campaign offers discounts and personal coaching along with support video to participants, it September the US FDA warrant jewel to stop. It's deceptive marketing practices. Stop Stop. They warned them. They warned them. They go warning after all this after all this stuff. All the marketing the lawsuits if warned them September of Twenty nineteen. Don't know man I don't know we work with the FDA lots, and it's such a laborious process to. Santa Creative through its, and you know the hoops to jump through years go to company that blatantly markets to children, and they get a warning gripe well, and the thing is as you mentioned. Deleting your social media accounts is usually a bad sign. If you ever get to the point where you think Ooh, we may need to take our counts down. There's a problem but that problem. Isn't solved or resolved by taking those accounts down actually a month later they stopped all marketing in the US voluntary right. They just like pull the plug and they continued marketing in the UK, I think, but now there's multiple lawsuits going on with within there as well. So Dr Jack Ller from Stanford's the gentleman I talked about earlier. He said that Joel's social media reach has lasting repercussions. As in November, two, thousand, eighteen, the company's Premium Hashtag, Hash tag Jew had been used two hundred sixty thousand times in instagram posts. The and those posts aren't getting deleted. Only Jewish account got deleted, but all those hashtag posts are still up. and I wonder which percentage of the two hundred sixty thousand are underage kids versus adult. Smoking's trying to quit. So jewel says that ninety nine percent of all social media content related to the company's generated through to your point, third party quote, third party users and accounts with no reation of the company. The company around that it's called influence or marketing you. Going he can't say oh, we don't. We don't create the content. Is these third party content? People they've could seriously. That's just disgusting. It's called talking out of both sides of your mouth, so their network of social influencers creates this massive unpaid peer to peer impact. is obviously still going on doesn't stop just because the campaigns have ended. Jacker says turning off their social media channels is likely to have at most a limited fact. And recommend that the products simply be pulled from the market, so the founders of jewel continue to stand behind their product just last year. Co Founder James Mancini's said in an article in Forbes that he thinks that they can get the technology to a place where no underage consumer can ever use the product and he sees continuing opportunity. We are point five percent of global tobacco market. We've hardly. Hardly touched the problem we came here to solve. Do you know when you say? We point five percent of the tobacco market? They are seeing green. They are seeing that got ninety five point nine percent white space available to them, and if the gun industry conned regulates or Figura how children can should guns of by accident? How on Earth is a nicotine company going to prevent children's six? Teenagers from using their product it's laughable. Man What have we learned feel like which has been rambling in bashing it, but this is important. The reason why we want to talk about this is because I. do think there's some things to learn about this. From of Morgan perspective I think if you don't learn from your past. You just dead in the water. It's just so funny to me like the market research we do when we launch brands or have huge massive campaigns. is so strong. It plays such a big impact on our strategies that become up with. So I'm just surprised. They just completely ignored that and gain i. just think that is purely based on greed. They was starting to make so much money, and they just want to get more and more and more and the final thing for me is. Done. Market to kids, period and I think we should do an episode around. The ethical -Ness of marketing towards children I I just for me. Personally I think there's no place in the marketing industry to market anything children zero. It's a really big ethical discussion, because there are so many products that are marketed to children, good products, bad products, the tactics for marketing to children are broad and varied everything from youtube videos to cartoon characters on the cover of cereal box, right, and so there are so many different. Influences on children from a marketing perspective that just like we talk about on a number of episodes that we've covered. Those influences are very often unknown, undetected and widely present. In the lives of of our kids, so it is an interesting topic that I think would be amazing to dive into and with that. I think that's a good place to end. Keep the reviews coming everybody. We really hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll talk to you next week. Current kick to kick the habit. You've been listening to the marketing rescue podcast. This show is hosted by NICO CASSIA and Chad. Children's the CO founders of KPI agency a marketing. Rescue Agency. BE SORTA? 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