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Hobgoblin Part 3: Ultimate Spider-Cast Episode #47

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This episode of Capes and Lunatic sidekicks brought to you by tweaked audio get awesome headphones tweaked. Audio Dot Com and use the coupon code southgate get thirty percent off reshipping in a lifetime warranty where he can get through the link on our website southgate media group Dot Com spa the standard. Hey everyone else again. Back for another ultimate spider cast. As I said last time we may have a special guest that we do ladies and gentlemen legendary artists for moral and these e Mr Ron Ron Friends. I didn't run over buddy. Thank you very much for the warm welcome and I know it kind of jumped around last time nine but were cut. We're focusing this time on us. Some of Ron's at Spiderman works the The hobgoblins stuff look close at Kinda. Well our little thirty there yet. Yeah Lockenfora guy couldn't river whether either. Yeah did you have a question missile helper. We can't talk fighter girl. Oh we can And we can but I know we've been focused in hobgoblins last few episodes. But you know if you've spider girl questions young we can do the hop of Apple. Yeah had Harley poking in November thanksgiving time doing the half Hour Hall Gobble Gobble wherever I like that word clever. Yeah last episode. We were talking. We talked like your first regular the issue of amazing amazing to fifty one. That seemed like a really fun issue. Probably the draw for your first regular issue because it was like mostly like an all action issue. Yeah actually. That's that's very insightful. That that wasn't true that you got to come in Junior to do all the setup and basically the big final fight it was I heard I've heard this online son again. I don't know if it's true. Who but when Roger Stern left the book did did Tom Ask him? You know Mr Tom Felker did he ask him who he had in mind for the HOB Goblin get okay. Okay and Tom immediately did indeed ask him. And Was told that it that it was Oh help me. I'm an old man that Roderick Kingsley Roderick Kingsley and you know and it's Tom didn't completely understand what the subtleties. Lt Of what Roger was going for although I not surprisingly have to as much as I love Roger I have to side with common this Rogers Rogers point is that the the the the Kingsley's are not twins. ooh that they just are. They look enough alike that they could fool people. But they're not they're not literally twins and that I just find that really hard to believe And he would have spent more time Building the mystery and doing more scenes like the ones he did see but by the time he was leaving the title and there was no real Crisis or conspiracy that had roger leaving the title And the fact that he and Danny Finger is Had worked together before and yell. Roger just didn't feel that there is at the daily figueras editing style and Rogers writing style. You know dovetail really well. He just felt that he would be driving. Danny crazy and vice versa. It was a good time with JR leaving it was a good time for him to be leaving He has flattered me by saying that if he had known that I was going to be the choice for pencil or he might be around long enough to wrap up the Goblin stuff boot that either. That's just in being very nice but anyway he made the decision to leave the title. It was his decision decision to make he made it So Danny's first duty as editor was to find a new Finally writer and And he tapped time onto do it though. Of course Thomas I two issues were Scripted over Rogers Plots So what. What was the question? Oh yes and Tom did indeed ask him. Who is the HOBGOBLINS? and Rogers Answer. Being a professional professional writer was while I was playing making it Roderick Kingsley's brother but you can make it whoever you want. 'cause you're the new writer and The one point. I asked Tom so it was Roger Planning on making it and Tom kind of cavalierly said it's going to be Roderick was going to be Roderick Kingsley's evil twin which you know and and Roger Denies that he would have said it that way because that's not the way he saw a tapie acknowledges that you know that the way Tom put it to me and I said is that who we are GonNa make it and he goes on. Fortunately you know. I don't think there was enough enough seated. I don't think that plays fair for the for the audience because I don't think there was enough. There were enough clues for anybody to conceivably half guest that And quite I'd quite ironically that happened with us Because the WHO wanted to make who tom wanted to make The hobgoblins wants daddy finger off had moved off the title and And and Jim Housley editor Afghan. Tom was trying to put seems set up who he wanted to be the hobgoblins who he felt had already been suggested and he wanted to do more scenes setting up the reveal so it would play fair with the with the reader and those scenes dean kept getting cut by the editor who didn't know why those scenes were in there and Tom didn't WanNa tell the editor who he was intending on making because he didn't feel that that was a good idea he figured as you people would know as possible and on and on and on and even became a very messed up their egos involved. There was no shenanigans involved. There was all kinds of ridiculousness going on the little bit of back stabbing a little bit of of ridiculousness that went on Whence Jim Ashley was running the show? actually Glenn Greenberg. WHO's an assistant editor on the hub? godless project did a really wonderful article for back issue magazine. Few Years Years back that interviewed all the principals and Basically took Jim Athlete blog He he didn't want to be interviewed you but he he was able to take Jim's blog as Jim's testimony. If you will to what was going on at the time and did a a wonderfully Complete overview of of the entire hobgoblins switch undeniably is one of turned into into over the years so once. Tom Found out who the Hong Kong was supposed to be that he lets you in from as soon as he found out apob immediately. Rogers was and we. You know I mean I'll be honest with you. I mean when we when you're running a mystery like this when you decide to start a mystery you don't always always know how the mystery going to end when we had And four we have prepared a time. We had a We set up several mysteries. There we set up the mystery of blood actually set up the mystery of. WHO's in the bag and hell user? I'd references for people. It might not read this stuff but when you set up a mystery you have an idea where you're going but you wanNA keep it fluid because if all the fans guests along the way you don't want you don't want him to be right they don't WanNa be right so you have to keep it open and fluid to possible changes in in case you know too many people get it or somebody gives it up or something happens along the way that would change the direction of your story. Oh and you have to keep it open for better ideas you know so. We talked about who we thought. It should be. Tom Decided who he thought. It should should be And he was the character that he was hoping to do. More setup with was the kingpins on Richard Fiske who had who had bender Schemer at one point That show Tom intended for hobgoblins to be in our story line which never happened He was planning on using Roderick. Kingsley as rose oh The rose was conceived as being a character that Tom was surprised. What people wondered who the Rose Wives because listen with just one of these middle management? pugs more Ask and he didn't realize that would be a question arose. Is You know they can pick. But those were his two ideas. And neither one of the maverick came to fruition. And so that's the way the Biz work. I mean when writers change when Editors Change You know storylines changed at Solar Chris to it really. I do like that better think Roderick Kingsley would have made a better rose and the are Richard Fisk when it made a better hobgoblins. Well you know that that also would have meant they'd Roderick as we did have a brother when are otherwise you know things like that which would have made some of the stuff that Roger set up Interesting because we're was deliberately doing scenes where Kingsley's personality seemed to be different. You know. Sometimes he was more cowardly Lee and snivelling any other times he was more directed and And controlling and that was roger subtly eight setting up the fact that there there was a reference earlier right before Roger left the title there was a reference to Roderick saying I wish my brother were here which was actually Daniel posing as roderick saying he was wishing roderick with their you know So yeah it's it's it's crazy because a lot of people's concepts change and mutate along the way and this was definitely one of those I mean I would have been. I'm perfectly happy with Ned. Leeds being the HOB Goblin ooh But my idea to put a twist on it would be that the reader would find out but before Peter Parker Fonda. And then you would be. You know you'd be you'd be putting them in situations where Pete's spider sense would be going off and he wouldn't know why and and that the reader would feel the jeopardy that people were in So that was another possibility. That was talked about in fact when Jim Housley. Ashley pushed Tom to tell him. Who's who is who you planning making the hobgoblins? Tom Didn't didn't trust Ouseley Ashley creatively. So even though his intention was to make it Richard Fisk. He told Ouseley ned lead. And and then we went ahead and kind of proof distrust of trustworthiness or lack thereof by having ned Leeds killed the Spiderman Wolverine thing. Before you're thinking that that was Thomas Choice for the hobgoblins. He killed off and when Peter David asked Computer David says when he asked Ouseley why he did it he said he did it to Piss off. Tom Falco up end. Focus story that's repeater set at that firsthand from Peter David who was pulled that at lunch with Jim obviously. So that's the that's the story story as it's been reported to me. So that's why Peter David that's my Peter. David made it revealed leads is the Hob Goblin in came enlisted by. Why Ouseley to fix it the weekly and and come up with somebody for the hobgoblins? Apparently obviously In at at that point was to make the Hob Goblin the foreigner character that Peter David had created and Peter. David said that doesn't work. Looks ways from Sunday. That doesn't work so he goes. Well then you come up with WHO and Peter came up with the idea to basically posthumously. Make Make Ned Leeds Bob even though he was killed And that led to the crazy stuff. jack-o-lanterns turn becoming the new hobgoblins which just got more and more convoluted and pretty much. Every year. Since Roger had left the title no he had pitched after he saw what other people were doing with it after he had seen when. I was liaison with it and everything. Roger was pitching com lives the different editors and a lot of people thought you know too much time to pass. It wasn't wasn't worth doing But Tom Brady board and Grand Greenberg who were a big supporter of Rogers and Rogers original concept where they bet and they said yeah? Okay you show US something. And Roger wrote the three issue. How got the Livni Eighty series and and they call John Muda Junior and he was unavailable at the time and being a superstar and they called me and I was thrilled ruled that we had that I was asked and I was one of the happy to make some time for for Spiderman project especially working with Roger so I said yes and we got going on it and I was? I was impressed with what Roger Dan I thought he structured it really well as a self-contained mystery story he reintroduced in all the suspects from years before and none of them had been used by other writers so everybody was still pretty much play and I thought it was a pretty solid solid three issue story. That got you know. Got The hobgoblins back to where Roger Addendum and we actually used used hobgoblins spider wider girl as Roderick Kingsley. We we used him as a as a bad ass villain from May Days Dad's roads gallery who basically came to the MC FC to universal Not Literally but you know he came to made as world world and and started hurting people So we kinda used him as you know the darkness from the six one six and of painting our bright little lemke to world a little bit So yeah it was fun using him As Roderick Kingsley and as this this this bad ass they from For Peace History. You know so I I I like character I mean which is good because I ask him a lot commission Hobgoblins I. Sometimes I feel like I'm more related to hobgoblins than Johner media. Junior is and he co created and designed character. Eric you probably drawn you probably on the Hob Goblin more than any other artists right I. It's possible I mean but like I said you know. Jr designed him and the stories and You know the fact we came on board and we're playing out the mystery. I mean I understand why associated with them and then coming back to got lives. I guess I kind of deal so Yeah when I'm asked to do commissions nations quite often. They involve Goblin that the black costume For Spiderman which again I didn't design it. I just happened to be there when it was introduced in a little. I feel like I'm dominating comes conversation. Might I add an artistic question though was was it like I mean. Did you enjoy it or was it left. Pain in the butt Blah always having like hide the hobgoblins face when his mask wasn't on for for how many issues I enjoyed it. I you know I mean the ridiculousness of it is that when you don't know who when Whoa you yourself don't know who the challenge is to make it as generic as possible without completely chatting the you know the reader that you know that that becomes the the challenge if there is one to drawing silhouettes the blood act. We weren't sure that initially who we were going to make the character so you know. Luckily most of the time it was cold winter months so even though it ended up being a woman they were covered by you know pants and coats and and in the nineties nineties pants were kinda pleaded in a little wider and stuff so there were plenty away with callers up and everything for me to camouflage who who we were showing in so wet you know that kind of thing and nobody really seemed to be. Nobody called us on it so that was good. I guess that's one sign of success asses if it's the readers don't revolt wet is finally revealed that kind of thing so yeah it it. It's a challenge. But you know I also had great teachers in Steve Dicko John Ramirez senior who had to do it for a while with Green Goblin as well. They came up with all kinds of quit even Mary. Jane was originally introduced with plant front of her face. Comics knows what they're doing when it comes to hiding people's identity Louis questions now I just have to run out of on the hopped up. Lil faded out. was there a question in there. I'm sorry I'm having trouble. Yeah she got kind of low lilith about Lilith. If I'm having trouble here hobgoblins and a new villain. What man technical difficulties of all right? Well I guess I'll keep going wron- so there was never ever so there was never any serious talk. Jay Jameson being the HOG Goblin now. I Roger conceive the character and seem to to have a pretty good idea for failure early on that it was going to be Roderick Kingsley who had introduced produced in the peer Parker series and the Fogo and I never never seriously considered that either now. J. John is too too valuable character. Just to squander on on something like that you know Plus I you know I would have been an interesting twist but I mean we had plenty of other. You're suspects at the time you gotta remember back in the eighties. We actually had supporting characters. Oh Yeah we actually had supporting cast which unfortunately really seems to have gone the way of the Dodo to some To some degree I although I'm speaking out of school because I'm not regularly reading anything right now. There may be plenty of books with supporting cast. I don't know but but yeah And and there were some supporting characters that recreated the you know for the purpose of being suspects So that's also true. I mean that's one thing about being a writer is you're limited only by your imagination and your Predator that always helps and create your suspects. Yeah and was the was. The length of the story story lake was that was that full I roger but then. Tom's idea or was edited. Editorial telling him Oh no hey stretch it out a little bit or Rogers. Original original concept was to take it one issue longer than the original Green Goblin mystery which. I'm not sure exactly. I mean he has stated in interviews that was was his original intention was the was to take it as As long as they did the mystery of the Green Goblin and take it one issue further and then reveal it I don't think Tom had any kind of a time. Line Day the truth As long as we could keeper trash at keeps twist because occasionally we would have have the hobgoblins kinda faded to the background When he framed Roger done the story where he had framed lefty Donovan and everybody thought was? He's left Donovan was killed. And then we we did a sequence where he framed Flash Thompson as the Hawk net and after each of those frames raves. He tended to like recede into the shadows a little bit and lay low while people assumed that the government was somebody else. You know that kind of thing so given that the mystery could have been carried on almost indefinitely under a skilled writer later You know we didn't have any intention to have a go on indefinitely but but because of what ended up happening you know. None of our original original intentions ended up happening at all. So I mean yeah like even after your first full issue I mean the everyone thought the hobgoblins was dead head and then the whole black suit came up so that probably prolonged for another what year. Yeah I mean I I think the hobgoblins type of character even if you don't know who heating is You can have some fun with the mystery. Occasionally and have him lay low especially after he's frame somebody. It makes sense if you've framed flashed onset and he's in jail for it that you're not gonna go flying around is the hobgoblins you know because you're going to let people think that was him and And that's kind of how we were seeing it that we didn't feel like we were under any real pressure to reveal it on any kind of timetable table for that reason. Yeah and I'm pretty sure I Have you heard from Peter David at all because I believe he's doing in a mini series. I think set set in that timeline. You know at the time. Peter had that ailing costume and I think he's bringing the Hob Goblin for that story. Dr I've seen the. We're doing the Soviets Spiderman many arcs and stuff. Yeah I haven't had a chance to read any of them but I'm sure uh-huh Peter Does he's going to you know he's GonNa look at what was going on in the meantime and check the timeline. I don't think the I mean I'm again. I'm Kinda speaking speaking out of school. Cause I don't know who the editor of that project is. But I have found that a lot of editors these days aren't overly concerned with with the continuity of past There you know I could. CITE several projects won't but I I could cite a few projects. I'm aware of the the end. Some of even worked on. That just didn't seem to be concerned in the slightest about whether or not there retelling think of history was accurate and given the ghetto. They're they're entertaining a holy a completely different set of readers. I can to a certain degree I can understand. You know why. Let why let history interfere with what you think is a good story right now. How you know that kind of thing I kind of I get behind that argument to a certain degree but I've always found that it's not really continuity that that AH people are looking for its consistency and then those are two slightly different things? But I you know I would not be a slave to continuity. He and I have no problem. If you come up with a clever way to say that a story that happened before didn't quite happen the way we think it did you know as long as it's consistent with what what was tollway with the the quote unquote facts of the story. They were originally told. I don't I don't tend to have a problem with that but You know so you can play with continuity as long as you think sometimes like some of the higher ups are like scared of continuity they're like oh or arena. Get new readers. If we're mentioned stuff that happened like twenty thirty years ago. Sure I think everybody has their own opinion about how that kind of works. And if some of the people I I I think Joe Casado was even quoted at one point when he first became editor in chief I believe he was even quoted at one point that they weren't GonNa let continuity keep them. I'm from keeping from from telling a really good story. And they were actually a lot of stories that were told. In the years. Following that statement they meant that kind of exploded continuity in hopes of getting a really good story out of it you know then that people have to decide themselves whether they're really stories. Fold after that but I mean yes certainly. The consistency of certain characters continuity certain characters have sacrificed over the years. And you know I like I said I'm not a real continuity advocate or I'm not I'm not crazy about you know I'm not insane about continuity being what it is I mean I think if you're doing a comic based on the history of the character it's one of those things where are those books have been printed and those folks will be reprinted so I think there's a you have a certain obligation to make sure that the story you're telling it gives consistent with what was in principle for you know because if you retell a you know something from the life of Spiderman or if you re tell something from the life of iron man or any character fill in the blank If you retail the life of Retailer scene and had it completely different from the scene that a reader can go and look up or is going to be reprinted in trade paperback next month. I think you're doing a disservice us to your audience. You know So that's not just about holding onto the older readers or trading younger readers for older readers or anything you think. It's also just being consistent to your catalog you know. Oh yeah because if you have if that seem you know if you decide you're going to do USA for some reason you go back and say that Spiderman was never able to lift all that weight off classic cozy. There was another character helping him. I mean people are GonNa go wait a minute web because we've all seen that see that scene. Is You know part of the history three the character I get not being a slave the continuity. But it's just yeah when people play fast and easy with the with history just like what. What am I that great story Tom? And Ron did you know Peter and Hob even as I said I was even part of something like that there was a title that ran for Awhile is Marvel Knights title call four that was just called for it was the marble nitrate tastic for title and it was written by rebuttal. Zegarra Pasta If I believe I say I'm saying his name right opens very talented writer. That was hired for his fact that he was a writer outside of the comics field and he decided that he was gonna tell a story that was placed in continuity when the fantastic four. I met the Challah. The Black Panther in and will conduct okay and in the course of his story read was ignoring poor shoe in favor of science and was telling I was being a silly girl and and he was too busy to deal with her right then even though they were in the the the beautiful romantic African African Veldt she was so she was wondering around the palace in her bathrobe and she ran into two Challah. Playing during the piano. And Challah was incredibly charming and they go to lake somewhere and they swim naked together and it suggested adjusted that something could have happened between Charleston. Suzy by it. You know that kind of thing but if you go back and you go to the tastic four more time lime and you go and read those issues reading sewer all over each other. I mean you know there. There's actually a scene in whether they're introducing door condon's baseball and reed and sue run off into the pushes together and Ben goes well. I guess we've lost our team Mcginn. So there's it doesn't wash it. It doesn't play but they were so convinced that their story was worth telling pulling that instead of looking for another place in marvel continuity where it might have work because there were plenty of times where it was being addicted sue pick another one. Because that's just that's just didn't work so you know there are moments like that it it happens and get a hold. The readers who like the new story oriented story and the readers who liked the old story. Say while I was stupid and you move on you know that kind of thing I drew the flashback cashback sequences and I'm like none of this works is it doesn't play 'cause it's not the way you know that's it's quote unquote not the way it happened in the original books course recognizing that I'm going to be turning sixty years old next year and and It's a ridiculous conversation for a grown man to be having talking about comic book stories or whether or not they really happened but anyway what's your career. I've paid my rent with it for long enough that I guess I've been titled You Know People Say Some of US fans are little crazy but I mean when you make your living data Helps to be up on all you know when you're just occasionally occurs with ridiculous. I mean I have conversation with devout that you know. We'll get to a point in the conversation station where it gets a little heated or it gets a little passionate and then we'd just start laughing because it's it's ridiculous but yes it tends to happen even more with fans because fans have that incredibly personal investment. I mean I tried to take it seriously on facebook especially I I never tell fans to get a life because these people are you know spend time paying my rent so I'm not going to offend their love of the character their investment in the characters. Because because that's that's what we work for. We hope that the stories we tell way we tell them are compelling enough that people get involved and become invested in the characters. You know if they don't then the book gets canceled. We're out of work in a I mean. Hey everybody go check. Out Ron Francis facebook page as always you know create Art Cohen on their can strike up a conversation with Ron. I would love to answer questions Sometimes people ask questions that have just been answered or can be answered in other ways. Sometimes I wait and give the fans a few days give other fans a few days to answer breath question if it's if it's answerable but if somebody asked me about process or tools or you know background I mean I'm not going to bad mouth else other creators I. I just refused to do that. I it makes me sad when I see other creators feeling the need to To Shit talk other other other people. I that that I think is bad for the industry and then I don't think it helps the fans at all. 'cause blame gets very eric cancerous. I made it gets to the point where you just start writing off different ideas and hopefully we're all in this together and the creative creative people I i. It always feels weird to me when somebody accuses Marvel of hating the fans because without the fans. They're not they may be miscalculating with the fans looking for they might be making mistakes and and had been wrong that they thought the fans are going to like this but the idea yeah. That marvel hates the fans and do things deliberately to Piss them off. What kind of a business with that be? I always find that I'll all would you expect to stay in business. If that's really the way you fell in I was find that ridiculous. 'cause I mean there's there's creators like you who love the fans but like even marvel in even if they despise the fans they they wanna make money right yes. Ultimately they need to find a middle ground where they're pleasing fans and whenever business agenda agenda they may have anything else would be insane. Now I I I. I'm not a business person I I. I know there have been mistakes made with comics industry. I wish the comics industry whereas healthy now as it was when I got into it. But it's not and that's just the simple fact of the day Sales are not what they used to be and everything but there are a lot of people who feel comics healthy knows it had been a while and if that is indeed true. That's great. I'm glad to hear it. I mean I. I'm reading about comic shops. Going out of business all the time you know. Yeah but is that just like the age of digital too I mean any printed DOPP medium is probably downright. Yeah Yeah and a lot of that is believe me. It's above love my bank right now. I am not I am not the Gates Bill Gates. I'm not a businessman so I really don't know how that all plays into. Somebody asked me to make decisions too so other people could make money. I would be the wrong guy to talk. I have enough trouble paying my own rent. All right I'll let you a little bit but are two things one all right to sum this up is Hob Goblin your favorite villain that you've worked on. I'm probably not going to say vote L. Sunday droid or manage probably alternately. My favorite character. But if I had to pick my favorite villain I don't I don't think I would pick off goblet. That would be too you would it be blood It could be you know it depends on how specific you're getting at one point. The commissioner asked me in fact he asked me to do a second one of just my favorite year overseas my favorite villain in the first one. I did there. There's just too many names so Instead of just doing spiderman vs fill in the blank I thunder strike versus blood axe But again it's just because there's I mean I've been reading comics. I have a lot now but from the time I was six or seven to the time I was. I don't know fifty. I was reading comics all all the time and I have many many many favorite characters for different reasons than than favorite village to some of whom I've even co created worked on Yahoo. ooh that's IT Kinda cheap. They're all my babies you know. I couldn't take ones or the ones I've co created but I don't know whether they would rise above of other care. I like I would be hard pressed the necessarily pick you know as far as like just a good fo for Spiderman. Do I crave it or do I pull. You know that kind of thing. Because they're very different characters whom is kind of an anti hero. Craven is a net. Our the lunch people so You know but I love the classic characters from it anytime I get a chance I default to the classic characters that I maybe didn't get the draw when I was actually on the Bach. There is there any way we could get a question or two out of Lilith I mean. Could she text you or something Pinger She told me to keep going on Yuccas she said Susan. Join the interview but the I didn't see any questions out of her. I so But Yeah I was GonNa say before I let you go I'd love to have you back in December. Talk about this but we should mention it anyway. So people you go out and buy at the four special. That's coming up in December. Yeah Yeah it was one of the many specials that they're doing for the eightieth anniversary. The of Marvel Called four the worthy. It's a one shot. I believe it's due out very early in December And it has a three stories and it's got Betari bill story with Betari Billet sieff written by Walt Simonson and inked by salve Osama I don't have it in front of me right now. So I don't remember the the pencils name is is in the is in the solicitations. But I I apologize adjudged to him. I've forgotten his name. And then there's a ten page thunder strike story by Tom. Falko in myself eight by Keith Williams. Al Noga was unable to help us cloud because he just had hand surgery. So we got Keith Williams to step in and do a wonderful job with inks and the third story is a the What is the third story? Jane Foster Thor story with Sieff in it that written by in the team of people who actually worked with James Foster character so it's Tenor so page. Stories of people who have wielded sued the hammer and that's packaged as for the worthy beginning December. So and when he funded strike fans out there are interested and a little hungry. It is Eric. It's not Kevin. It's a it's a untold tale of Eric and Code Blue Blue taking on the gray gargoyles tool so yeah it was a lot of fun to do To talk on I put our heads together. I was really not coming up with any ideas that never got around to for for thunder strike and it wasn't until Tom came up with the idea of including code blue. That that we kind of worried when a hammer out something because I had an idea for years of having code blue go up against the gargoyles so we were able to incorporate some some of it into this story but it's basically set after Jock Jackson is killed. He was a code blue member. That was It was killed in the line of duty and this story picks up right after that event where everybody is still reeling from. It and Eric is still trying to decide if is responsibilities to Kevin don't outweigh his responsibilities. As Superhero has an adventure and everybody everybody in code blue or having some of the same thoughts and the it it kind of explorers that moment in Eric's development where he had to decide aside whether or not to to quit or stay on the horse and see how it ends. Of course we all kind of know what decision he made. But it's it was a fun ten pages I think it'll be insightful and time to FAO can can write a one page story so he certainly gives. There's a lot into a story but yeah like I said. Look happy to come back after it's out in discussion with your take any questions okay. Yeah love to do that. So yeah everyone anyone who sees this. Listen to this. Yes send me your questions. Will you know Mr Friends has been gracious enough to come back yet again. So send your questions and that would not be a problem. Our all right. We'll thank you sir. Thank you for especially on Saturday for sacrificing. Some time on a Saturday to speak with me. I was being late afternoon like this. It was terrific. Don't worry about it fills my pleasure. Please going forward. Please call me Ron. Thank you very much for your support and for inviting me on.

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