You believe made it. We're with the home what's happening. Where does hannah gadsby. I was very very excited for this. Thank you to mike. big leah. Who put us in touch I am a fan. I was excited and sort of like ready ready to figure things out meeting. Hannah is so smart and so conscious and you'll see even in the episode. There's a moment where we sort of. I sort of have like a quick moment. I'm like oh that's the other side of a bit. i was doing. It's so interesting. I think. I've mentioned it a few times on episode since then all of that is to say this is a great conversation and one that has stuck with me and i really really hope you enjoy. Check checkout douglas. Her special on netflix and And the other one of course is the net. But they're both wonderful. And i encourage you to check them out I also want to give a shout. it's the holiday season. People are getting gifts and such. I would recommend getting something from our friends at living libations lit white. 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That's b. r. o. l. i. n. n. dot com and enter promo code weird for ten percent off plus free shipping brooklyn and dot com. You know by now promo code weird at checkout and show your support of this always reshow show. I don't mean to sound Sweaty or anything but it does mean a lot. If you guys like this episode if you like other episodes you like the show in general just get yourself something get your so get get get get get yourself something nice and show your support or hey just coast on through and listen to hannah gadsby but i think you know what is more in the holiday spirit of generosity in giving and fun so do yourself a favor get yourself a pizza back in the meantime. Let's enjoy the wonderful hannah. Gadsby get into it herpel. Hannah you can't hear me at high. Hey you are how. Hey i'm all right how you doing. I'm doing very well as your shirt. Purple because i said purple and i don't even know if it is purple because i'm colorblind flirt split but there is just because the pattern. It's it's because it's a check. I say when it crosses over through some of the other blues becomes pulse. What dietrich like you. That's a loving way to say. I'm not wrong. It's not only in parts is purple. I appreciate it is patchy i. I'm so happy to meet you too. What a miracle to be talking to you literally across the world year with video we're living in the jetsons via i'm feeling pretty special about. I've been watching your stuff in preparation and discuss. My heart is open and crying such a fan. I think you're incredible. So i'm excited to talk with you. Thank you very much. Yeah how are you getting on in. This is my first area. I'm in right now. He's just talking to jenny. So i've been alone for five days going for you. Thank you for asking. It's actually getting a little bit easier. I have to say in the net one of the things that i really related to was that you say you're a quiet gary I am a straight man. But when i would go to gay pride parades i would have the same observation. I was like if i was guy. Where are my gates. You know what i mean. Where the teacup. Quiet night at home people and then it occurred to me that maybe you were enjoying this as i as i sorta them in part i am with with a lot of reservations for what is happening in the world. You're able to separate the two. It is I am enjoying the social anxiety. Ings is nil now because no like drawing boundaries i don't have to draw boundaries the mandates. That's where don't have to pay interest either. Well it's icon find interest so what life what my life was usually made up of was doing the cleanup often my lack of ability to fight interests. You've made a career out of your lack of ability to feign interest. Oh lovely yeah. So then i have to clean up because i don't want to hurt people's feelings but also i can't pretend cat about some things but the social anxiety has just. I've not had low level of of of anxiety since i can remember pam and also stability in Chain which i really love like i love retain but Comedy what it is. You don't get retain you don't get to have written so i've been enjoying that and gardening like is that right garden. Yeah yeah. that's that's lovely. I've talked to many guests that garden and they all say that it's all there all the lessons. You need all the wisdom from the earth. I'm not exaggerating. They seem to see the cycles and they get a lot of messages from their garden. Do you feel that way. I know that's a leading question but yeah absolutely. Yeah i might show thank you. My grandma said it's not a garden. It's not the garden the gardening so it's And the gardens quite forgiving. You you know it gives you the lessons lake. Have watch the plants year. They'll tell you before they die that they dying and you. Can you have time to to to help them and save them in the dead plant sort of useful. Does that then become the mall for next. I mean we've seemed your loss from our methodology the cycle of life. I suppose yeah. But that i wondered when you know in your in douglas. Coming out as ashby. It's not the garden the gardening. It's not comedy it's doing comedy. You know it reminds me. I have not been diagnosed. But i feel like i have some Asti leanings has a lot of comedians. do yet Like the guy in free solo. When i'm doing stand up and when i watched you doing stand up i'm not seeing an ounce. I'm seeing confidence. I'm seeing expression. Emceeing performance emceeing complete clarity over what they're saying the nuance of what the audience to sing. I wonder if that how does that. Feel the gardening of doing stand up. Does that snap you into a heightened state. That's more comfortable i imagine. Yeah the badghis again. A very set in a stand in stand up. So when i'm doing it's not being social this. No input happening in that moment. Only inputs taken from times have had time to think about things and re reshape them. And then i just sort of get to performance and shape it and gifted if you want to call it that to the audience. But i'm not taking anything nuanced back from the audience is the vibe that they audience energy. Which then i then have to. You know this this. I don't tend to change my routine a lot of sort of bedded then but there are a lot of different ways that you can change the way you perform a pace to suit nordion has with rhythm tempo emphasis changes depending on if an audience is up. You get up with it. If they down then you know you don't want to hammer them with the same energy a hammer alive lively audience but at some having a conversation i find having a conversation with someone much more difficult to i like. Podcasts are different. Because there's a performative element because it's being recorded and we sort of know the stakes. You know how long it's going to be. You might know about the tone or whatever it sort of. Take some of that. Ambiguity out me. Yeah yeah. I enjoy watching. Real people have conversations point which become creepy. The creepy food will. But i do. I don't i don't hate. I am quite social. But it's exhausting. So i like Just observe other people being social Find that quite delightful. And i feel like i've participated in every moment of of a conversation that i haven't actually spoken but as soon as i found as my fame level increased the less able. I am to just observe a conversation because you know people like me will drive this conversation. And that's not where i'm very comfortable. I completely understand has been a challenge. I i mean. I say it. All the time people laugh at sindbad quote. He says the comedians are funnier when they're riding the bus. Obviously your sex specialists brilliant. So i'm not challenging your humor level. You've maintained that but the ease with which you can blend into a party and observe. I mean that is sort of your job. Well i've got a lock. Climb to draw from so. I can't count company reasonably light in my life. I did feel sorry for key to find comedy and then no setting amount of stardom and then lule because you know what they draw from is not not experience and i think to a certain extent. The famine sudden fame is akin to trauma. It's of course it's not bad became to new color. Yeah yeah it's not necessarily bad you know and you have more like certainly more tools at your disposal disposal and But there is something traumatic about this shifting circumstance that i felt after the net. That made me just wanna withdrawal from the world. I mean it's not what you were after. I think that's what makes your work so special and i know Douglas was your tenth specials so clearly you're somebody who's doing it because you enjoy it. It's what you're good at. It's written on your bones to do it and the comedians that i know that do it for money or power or fame fame being probably the worst those well maybe power but fame being a bad one they never make it so it is hoisted upon you. Do that make it well. That's that's a good to point that out. I don't know if i agree with me there. Let's put it this way. I tend to not enjoy those kids kind of comedian that i'm really fascinated with and they're not funny at all but successful and it's not uncommon going. I hate him 'cause successful. I just confused. Because i'm like you know because i look at things and i'm like breakdown what i say and i'm like it's not funny or interesting what's happening and it's the the rhythm of which i say they bring to the table like they bring this energy and that's All but i had to learn the energy Slicing dyson Is clinical as you like with with with comedy. And i could get that to the table but i have to really learn how to modulate my voice. That's one of the first things i noticed. I'm so glad you brought up. I wanted to ask you how you learned again. Not to assume Somebody on the spectrum that you can't do that but that is one of the first things you look for. I don't know maybe don't look for it but like the inability to modulate and perform. And when i want you. It's off the charts. You're doing it like crazy yet. It's probably a little too off the chats. Not my charts are very mild charts. The if you happen upon early my early performances i am. I am dead pan. I used to get reviews like hannah. Gadsby dull and listless and talk and i could be very much a particularly. My early career did something like the edinburgh fringe in. That's really overwhelming experience. So i'd be okay in the first few days of the festival and then i get exhausted. Because it's a stimulus. The whole time. And and then so then awakes in i would be delon leslie because i was just locking down the only place. You could go inside. I didn't understand. Had protect myself. Full line because i was diagnosed. So you know also. There's a thing called masking and goes on the spectrum. Particularly do that because girls are expected of aptly of my age when we were growing up. you know. The standard withheld held to about being social and goes on spectrum observed behaviors of those around and mimic Where's boys on the spectrum. We're allowed to have specialist knowledge baylor anti-social is like they're just boys you know that's what boys do but goes during that i. It's not like you made a special set of circumstances and family to let you do that. We had the you make the point angel and horror. We talk about that. A of the show. The archetypes. The character choices and i'm thinking about growing up even in the eighties and nineties. We add steven reich comes to mind the idea of a role that i have people in my family that are on spectrum. Yeah they were. We would have something to go. Well he's sort of like that guy you know i mean i can i. I don't really know that. Many deadpan or draw or whatever it might be said antisocial models or character choices for women to model. Yeah i would say that. If i was mayo like if i was like that's where i would have got to a but an often. What is sir. I am experiencing as passion. People receive a as anga. I'm colder angry. Comedian and just not angry. I'm curious flustered like this angry at the will. But i'm not. I don't really really let go of anger quite as late because as soon as something doesn't make sense or is exhausting. I'm just like well a few pop. So the way people raid. May i think is to do with. I probably express it incorrectly to near. Typical is and also than laid on top of that is how people like to put down public facing women women with with a with a platform as a passion is always sort of if you'd like what a woman is saying. Then you but you can't necessarily fault default. They say it. So it's an. It's sort of a double whammy. Yeah that's very interesting. Yeah i mean it sounds very much like that was what you said. If you were a man you could have become that choice. But if i did. Stephen wright type comedy which i love than i would impersonate him to. The cows came home. And i came home twice a day. The milking If i would be classed as being stupid like you know a little bit sort of soft in the head so to speak that dollop of understanding given to two boys i completely. I've seen that as well of course and You know when. I first started doing comedy. It was a bit of a gift to be off putting because it gave me an age when i woke on stage i was so outside the bounds of what april expected from me that it gave me that. Like pause to establish myself You know like you know as a as a big a woman. I'm supposed to be jelly as tasmanian in australia. All supposed to be stupid as a lesbian all supposed to be angry. But i was just this sort of confused globe. Nan and people like quant how to respond to that. So that gave me room. You know and it's really important for studying. Comedy is to have that disarming quality so then you can establish yourself instead of having people stereotypes but the that became a straightjacket off while. Because i couldn't toll unless i. There's no way i could talk about the spice rack. And the you know with if i didn't than make some sort of lake aja help. The audience adjusts to my sexuality. Might look my voice. All sorts of things that are not typical of me So there's aspect of me furious amendment. Because i would like to just tell you about the personalities of different spices herbs. Perhaps you grow in your garden. That's the one thing. Success is going to probably afford me. But i have to fight against the the piece of work in a way that established without undermining it. So susan like you ninette gave me this platform. But i'm not going to use that platform to do nenet tune in at three rain and four and you're not the fast and the furious if i'm masking men tend to call you furious for some reason but fast. I mean everybody nobody. No comedian is ever called me fast either. Douglas it's really dense show and i have a lot of energy on stage. And that's simply. Because i had an hour and a half show net big net flicks going people off that gives them off ramps. And it's serve a really tightly woven shutters so you take out one piece another pace crumbles later on the show so you can't just take chunks out so i thought i'll just talk fast and that's what happened and that sort of In how. I develop my signature. How fast were you literally insurance. So you weren't joking when you said you to cut parts of the show out to fit in the explanation of what was come. I think that is hilarious. And i can't believe somebody of your stature with ninette still was in the confines of you can't do a ninety minute special. That's wonderful like i think you know. Success comes with a lack of it. Like i think the show is you know is bigger and better in my mind but i think for an audience. You know you don't want someone rambling for ninety minutes. You know. I think. I think you know having an edit function external to you is is. Is you know. I respect Hoopla comeback from nuts. All you know a think about all notes and if they don't make sense then i'm quite happy to stand my ground but you know i don't know what the viewing habits I personally don't watch all of a comedy show myself. So you know that made sense and douglas was a particular show that made sense for you know it was rapid fire. But you know something. They took a real risk on the net. So i think those mutual respect. I love that i love. Humility gets a bad rap. I think sometimes comedians can believe their own hype to their detriment and there is something to be said like it is cold data right. You don't want your art sculpted by the data chisel but at the same time the data can be leaned into it. It's like people if you ever have to do a clean sat or something and you end up writing. Some brilliant stuff because of the restriction. Oh i i live life because of restriction i only way blue for instance because it's it's both restriction and give scope for play because there's a lot of different blues but mine don't have to get stressed about choice particularly not so much in the morning getting dressed but when i'm buying clothes so like to come up with an idea of who how i look it's just like it's easy now. Think that's brilliant. You figured out the way that your brain plays it. Yes to play. It plays better with restrictions than just with wild freedom. Yeah and for news like As some of on the spectrum having someone on the outside saying this doesn't necessarily work is compensation of always. Had you know of always had to adjust the way that i communicate in order to be understood. You know the point is to be able to communicate. It's not the object. You know you know i save my standup. As the point of it is being able to share communicate tech. What's inside may and share it with the outside well to end you know. Taking taking feedback is critical to that. And that's before it even gets to net flicks. It's already gone through a whole process of that because audience is like tell you their own way won't work doesn't we're in the fabric business. That's what we do. That's essentially why. I'm able to be quite easily humble about my success. Because i didn't expect the net to work like it was written as a shows. Like you know what i'm just gonna put this on the table and people aren't going to like it because that'd be an observing liking comedy and this this is not it i i i do. I'll say like to call bullshit. I had to write that show. Because i didn't understand what people wanted me to say and i was recently diagnosed on like i have to shake things up because i had an audience so i wrote this show and expecting it half hoping for it to backfire not have to take a backseat on my career because exhausted from travel and now i understood why and so i wrote that show expecting it to fail and it did not and so at system as like i don't necessarily understand what audiences want and the success of ninette was not just down to what i created but the audience let the audience was what made that show successful without the audience. Not no that would not have made it onto net flicks if the audiences hadn't said during the live performance It lit a fire on. Its life that's right in its lot. It's the you know when when comex an shy about telling me that you know minute was rubbish. And because it's not comedy it's hard to sort of take them seriously because it's like you're ignoring that the audience is also involved in deciding what they want. Right i feel like those same comedians. If would use the opposite logic in their own defense. You know what. I'm saying there overlooking the fact that you have your case study in front of the which is your audience and you do it hundreds of times i. I'm not really up to speed on that. I wasn't i. Maybe i don't wanna be naive. I assume a show like that would get haters. But i didn't know people were just flat out telling you. That's not comedy yeah. They're not telling me they're not. They're not that brave. But i think people think that talks to me which i do get that impression. One of my questions is friends. Question watching friends the real. You binging friend. Yes i am. I missed out on that pot when i was growing up. A american television. My mum didn't like it. she didn't like it. Because assumption she did but generally speaking was british crime dramas not not american comedy patching up. Well i find interesting. The raise mom didn't like american comedies is because of the canned lofta. She gets furious. She said that's not funny. She said i don't need someone to may when to laugh. And you do have a really different experience if you watch something without the prompt lofta. I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's kind of fine. But i don't mind friends there is a lot of you know Around the fact that it's homophobic and i'm not seeing that quite a tuned timah phobia there homophobic characters. But the attitudes not celebrated. And i think that's a. It's time what wasn't homophobic back then So you know like you know. That's i i'm an audience so that's not necessarily relevant to a young audience. I'm not gonna cy young people. You must like the show. Why would you this lexa terrible. I find it comfort in those ninety shows. I wonder if this was something hypnotic to about the pace and the color palette all of sneaks experienced. Let's back in the day. it's going to become fitting if it's if you didn't fury younger Less chance funding confident like Nostalgia is a really really powerful sings. And but i come from a tricky place. Because i didn't experience it at the time. 'cause i you know. We went allowed to watch american and once i left i was never in a position i had a television. I'm not one of those people. Like i didn't watch television. I i didn't have a tale of vision. I couldn't afford. I would have watched it if i had one. Yeah would have love to watch. One know share houses in television and i got i watch what they expect but and to just pretty much pandemic. I've got television. I'm mostly in charge of the remote. Hey and it's fine. I feel bitter about that in I work with restrictions so having someone else choose what i watch is fine like watching other people's conversations you pick up on. Hey what are people watching yet. But what fan really fun with friends is because i've spent my whole life just observing following patterns and i'm i'm really good at predicting what lines coming next. Only god. can i tell you my gang. Show my game. You'd be great at it. We watch a show like friends. Chandler's got as well know who's Who's the dumb one not. Joey is joey. Joey's the jemaine. Been equalled them gas may it's ross. Ross is the dumbest of the dumb dumbs. Okay it's ross. Ross has his face covered in chocolate. Cake rachel comes in. He looks up. He's cod it was rachel's birthday cake. And then we pause it and then we go to our panel of comedians for them to guess and get one point or beat it and get two points. I feel like you would be good that game. Yeah right because you know. I mean that. We know the music when i watched your stand up. You know the music of comedy the problem with my if it's in that context i wouldn't well if i'm with panel of comedians and competing for the funniest line and it's like i cannot 'cause i i sort of go. Oh you've got the comedy covid. I can sit back like competitive. Like it's it's a real flaw. So i think that's i think that's what if i was on a panel of people taking it seriously. Yeah i would take it seriously and be funny. Oh i'm sorry i see. You're making a distinction if we're just competing as comedians. What what's the difference between competing and taking it seriously. Well because my comedy comes from a mis interpretation of the world around me. When i try to be funny. I'm less funny because you know there's a gap off. I can't catch up quickly. And then i realized all. That's funny that's a joke. I realized how. I've made a mistake. Yes whereas so but whereas like it's funny because it's something endearing about that but if i'm i'm trying to be funny i'm trying to be funny then i it's i can do it but it seems hola if i'm where i'm coming from his is trying to be genuine like genuinely trying to be a good person and i'm genuinely trying to do the right thing. I inevitably make mistakes and then people have to try to do that. And i think i completely relate so much of where i get premises from is from something i did in earnest that was misunderstood and this is why one of the things that i found asked me about myself was taking things too. I would often take things way too literally. Does that resonate with you. Yeah i mean it's it's really funny to be now because you know i've got enough. I think one of the the bad things that the representation of people on the spectrum and why a lot of people don't believe they're on the spectrum recognize themselves in the stereotypes is that what's often missed in the observation of from your typical people is the the humor and like most And i'm talking about people on the part of the spectrum where we have the capacity to be verbal. But i do have a friend who's got a child on spectrum his non verbal. But he's funny like but you just have to. You have to find you know the language have you seen. Asperger's are asked the dock. And i think it was on netflix. I'm sorry if i interrupted. I was gonna say it's an improv team or a sketch team and they all are on the spectrum. I have much. I'll have to look. It's a clue it's really really funny. It's really great when you see when you're talking about so you're saying you china yet the like for me and most people on the speaker like there's a moment where we don't get things and that's why people t seem to freezes and then this pity but if you just wait a couple they might just like oh are now i missed the point that and also what happens in that moment where we've missed the point and then we go back over the movement and try and make sense of it. We come up with all the meanings in all the angles. And that's a lot of where comedy comes from its rating hindsight. Yes inside and so. I think there's a there's a we need to ray riots. You know most most stories about suna people on spectrum changed with sort of tragedy but you know the capacity to huma quite disarming yes You just have to keep the tape playing. I mean that's it's sort of the point you make in the net. It's like tell the whole story pick pick where you're going to extract the meaning and you're right i mean when i look at movies like revenge of the nerds or whatever i'm like revenge of the kids with asperger's is that is that what's happening right now. Like that was us you recipe for instills. Basically exactly i. That was us in the eighties. That's what we saw in the eighties and even into the nineties and now it's so beautiful the have more and more examples. It's really meant a lot to me. When jerry seinfeld said that he felt like he was on the spectrum he later took it back but i was thinking of him early. Kept the type plane. He played it back. did he gets a saying. You can't just do net. I think he might have gotten some flak. I mean at that level. I mean he's The by thousand 'cause he can get himself a diagnosis and get into this properly. You know what i mean like. Come on come you have a doctor that will come to your house. No problem yes yeah right get get you get diagnosed since it's it's actually baffling many one because clearly hits like there's no doubt in my mind that he that he is on the spectrum. I recognize it in the way that he thinks again. Not diagnosed. either i. i'd be interested to look into that. But i thought this point which being diagnosed is is incredibly difficult and i i got lucky in in many ways and us quite dogged about it because it also. Because i'd be misdiagnosed. I i think if you experience as i did like life was difficult like because i had i am on the spectrum like there are people who are high functioning Is it's cold that you know. There's a line which you high functioning but you live a poll life because every bit of your function goes into nearly existing. It's treading water adults. And so i. I wouldn't call myself high functioning because this is quite a large part of my life than i m unable to navigate. That's a good special title. Hannah gadsby functioning. It's not call it high. Let's not and i think this it's really interesting space in comedy because often this is put down to gender. And when you when you think that there's a lot of comedians on the spectrum or given spectrum nudge recall but this straight men and the experiencing an it becomes dialogue about women with their fairly intuitive feelings And i look at that. An and i know woman on the spectrum behaves the way these men described you mean the and i know i know plenty of men. Who have these feelings. I don't understand nyc and they get angry about stuff. I just like. Why are you angry. It doesn't make sense you're talking about is not and i think that i think honestly. I think we'd have a much more interesting dialogue if we didn't do the difference between men and women and we did the difference between near typicals in an end. More atypical folk. Because a lot of you know the difference between men and women has shaped the way we view minimum and like that joke faked out know in popular culture. Like the the tagline of so many jokes is like women and what should they is like people with emotions and which is not exclusive to women of course and it's also because the you know they get to drive the conversation it looks less than because they're the ones with the microphone they going. Hey these these. My wives all the cushions evan. Why do they call it a throw pillow. It's time so it's a good bit. I'm just sort of so people. Then they they Yeah so. I think it's sort of interesting that it's always gendered and i'd like to sort of stir that pot up. 'cause i understand men like a lot of my comedy is securing the toxic masculinity Because i experienced it a lot. Because i actually get along with guys because i don't have i don't have a lot of cushions i mean that is one of my seinfeld has a thing where it's like women need cotton balls men don't need cotton balls. I i love side bill. An who really vein. A nate cotton bowl. That's right it's a more nuanced severing of of the human rainbow that you're asking for which i completely agree with. Let's not thinking of free a lot of women and afraid a lot of men up to let's take the hate of gender. Yes and think about it in terms of you neurobiology. That's right very more much more interesting. I take the weld in and you turn it around and take the world backout whereas gender is really gender sexuality is a very if people feel like they could just break that off of who they are but the way you think in the way. The world is just fundamental to who you are. Yeah do you think that's fundamental to your sex and your gender. Is that what you were saying or are you saying when people think about you in terms of your sex agenda. They and the way you sort of like i feel like my my Autism is is fundamental to who i am because it doesn't go away when not looking at me like i still think like the way that i think even though no one's looking at me and trying to understand who i am. Yeah in the way that you think is maybe even it pre. It's a precursor to your body to your gender i. it's it's even more intimate. Yeah and people. It's a people tend to then you know that's where the full science of eugenics come into it because they you know the they presuppose that race gender and sexuality then informed to even for like a defect. That's right that's not right. That's what eugenics is really just absolutely dumb science layman like even yet. It's just not actually science. Science is a bad way. It's like people just invented or they did val my wife al. Who does the friday episodes with me. She pointed out she had had attract back to the moment in history. When one group was trying to own another group and in order to justify that they had to come up with jennings base because in order to own another group to consider still superior and the measure of that is civilization rate. Compet like racism is by its very nature civilized idea. We have to invent a science in order to justify masquerading as civility. of course. Because it sounds. You can't put that on the quaint if masking. You can't ask massacre ya. I love that line. You said if you're in the minority you don't matter. My wife is Ten years younger than i am. And she's been very helpful in helping me see the the privilege and unseen perspective of even jokes that maybe not my jokes. Some of my jokes. Some of my perspectives are just coming from a place of assumed normality. And when you said that in your special it was very powerful to me. I am tinguely in the cheeks just thinking about it. I wonder if you could talk about it. I when i go to see shows. And when i did Ten years ago. I remember starting to pick up on it. I was like there's justin undercurrent of women are inferior. Or there's just an undercurrent of gazer inferior or blacks are inferior or mexicans. Latino ex people whatever it might be and it was fascinating like you as a notice of patterns. I'm like where's the line. This is a regular audience. Nobody's here to see any comedian. They're just watching a handful of comedians and seeing where this random group of three hundred people would put the line and it was pretty generous in the favor of. It's normal to be straight. It's normal to be white. It's normal to be mail because lines not drawn by the audience. That's right that's right. Talk about that. The lines drawn by culture like no individual gets to decide stuff in a in a you know like so the when people is guilty of this knife you to close your eyes and think of adopter. Clouds rise thing comedian basically. It's dr hy tax cut off. James invitation you know what i mean like. It's just what you do and that's because that's what would give an you know like the mother-in-law the mother-in-law jokes on that sort of bothered me for a long time because it's seen as if it's like harmless truth but if you dissect the mother-in-law basically it's separating a daughter from her family which is essentially what marriages nagging the day. Not what it is now but back in the day it's like you said the woman from her own family with a dowry hopefully and and the mother-in-law doesn't get to have you know as soon as the mother-in-law inside yourself into the family it's not quote interesting. It's like why am i. Respecting you you don't have money. You don't have power. I'm not related to you. Get out of here. That's whether you know lake and so the you know also you separate women from their own family you separate the source of power So the the mother-in-law joke is like a really in a long line of patriarchal devices to make sure that women don't have inter inter generational pal structures. Wow that's challenging for me. I'm thinking of a joke. I had where i said. I hate my girlfriend's parents and it's okay. I'm not embarrassed. We can talk about it. Meaning i don't mind being the bad example. The joke was what are we going to hang out. I'm having sex with your daughter. You know what i mean like. You don't like me. Don't pretend to like me. But i wonder and i'm only pointing this out not too for the fun of falling on my own spirit but to say like i didn't know but when i hear you say that it makes sense like let's get your family out of here because you're with me now right. I mean isn't that what's happening. But there's also an section there about the sexuality of the dole to so you'll presence therefore makes parents confront that and that's another thing like girls young women at to have sexuality. That's you're absolutely right. The big shock in line of that joke. I didn't say having sex. I said i'm fucking your daughter. You should want to hit me with a shovel. Yeah okay why. That's exactly what to do that. Like why wouldn't they have a healthy sex life i am. I'm there now. The special was quite a while ago. Four i didn't mean to sound defensive. I'm just saying i see it now. I guess yeah that with we have a daughter now and it's funny. I catch myself having thoughts. That i have never seen really reflected on tv. Which is you'll be holding your baby and you're like she'll have sex one day right because that's the old it's like. Don't think thing. And then i go. Yeah i hope she loves it. I hope she knows wonderful. Sexual freedom and beauty and passion and joy and bliss. I know that's weird to say about my own daughter put like well. You know you know you don't get if you frame. It is like you don't own a human. Then that's kind of healthy right. Not get involved yourself you find. But there's that was never modeled for me to be like. Yeah i hope my daughter. It was always she better. She better be home by eight. You know i've always been really fascinated by story. I'm why stories sort of overwhelmed. People before fat and i spend a lotta time on the story of adam and eve ants in both both an douglas. Was there. It was part of the shows in both times. Sort of like had to be pulled out for various reasons. It didn't quite what it had a long held fascination with the story vaneman even white has such a big influence on so many different sorts of people and how in the world of hydrophobia. It's adam adamant. I've known and steve I've been it's madam and eve but it's for my mind it's like it's a story that helps is i think is supposed to help people understand the the navigation and the troll merv leaving childhoods and becoming an adult and that sort of you know and that story the way we tell it to each other particularly in religious religious circles as will call them. It's it's a shame the women and so that's part of that. Is the slight women. Supposed to fill more. Shame than men arounds vats leaving of That's right even. I remember the realization of a teenager. And i was like. Oh adam's apple. That's like. I could be wrong. This is my child all the way down. It didn't go all the way down. He didn't swallow it like she swallowed it. She fell for it. The the snake But i am completely with you. I just think adam. Typical man didn't choice food. he's more of a hoover he he likes it down. You know. I think that's what the biblical author's get. Yeah i want to go back to something. You said earlier about trauma very interesting subject. We talk about trauma a lot on this. Podcast is comedy trauma i mean. Don't you feel like the. I feel like the most trauma experienced was induced by comedy in the first ten years. No i don't i don't see comedy is troll my howdy. How do you think i'm not sure i understand you. I think i'm going off remember. We were saying fame as a type of trauma. So i'm using a lower case. T i'm not putting it up there with the salts or anything like that. No i get that. But i'm just i've done actually understands how i'm talking about the the humiliation and the pain. It reminds me of you talking about people on the spectrum that are treading water that are learnt. That seem to be functioning but really. They're like a duck with the feet underwater sailor. -ly you see an open mic. In the first ten years they might seem okay but there's a lot to digest whether or not we call trauma. Maybe you could talk about that yet. Look i i don't like back trauma. So there was no way unexperienced. Samat you know like you know just kind of a quite a broad spectrum of trauma accumulative patriots day and bit some bulbs before. I even started comedy. And i'm say it is any point of pride or anything As i know to be the truth i would not be made in had to do it for the open mic channels because it just seemed absurd at the same like. Why would you do that. You just talking to a bunch. And i did a few gigs in those places and it just seemed like the audience's disrespectful the the comedy was most often quite hostile. Oh yeah it was. Were you know this. is you know. I've never seen so many ripe jokes back-back Might not so. I've like well. This isn't the wealth may so you you didn't do participate not didn't have time to but strategy. We have a different sort of model of standup than in in the us. And what is drives that. The most i believe is the culture around the melbourne international comedy festival. Which is an open festival. Much like the fringe. But it's fingers out into all kinds about Festivals similar modal. It some comedy and so you're encouraged to just put on our show so in fight amongst fight the same audience without comic you find foreign audience into a bunch of people to come down again. We're going to buy a ticket to show. Who so then. How did you prepare that show. Forgive my naive question. Is i started small. They run a competition called rule comedy. Where looking full. So i got my start in the role. Comedy comedy comedy Melbourne comedy festival new talent search. And i won that and then they did another thing in the next festival where they put a whole bunch of new comex into like a you know a a lineup shot and i did really well layer. Then someone said i wanna support you do an hour long show another coming. Adam hills is styling and he said he's To produce your first album show in the mobile comedy festival so pretty much. I was my experience of it. Although i'm was comic supporting other comics that idid melbourne. And that was my take away from the scene Not everybody was from australia. But just not european scene. David daugherty and i came quite close. Yeah just couldn't name. That felt that way to me. Maybe that's why i. I'd like to think it's just because i'm an evolved person that's seen one person shows that seeing a variety different types of comedy list for what you did reminded me of the shows that i would see in and then a good way of course. Yeah well. it's just the way it's long-form comedy like. I don build an hour. Long show out of five minutes sets that work. I take a- as a as a. I'm agnostic as to which is better. I don't believe that's even a conversation with having two different forms is this like better marathoner. Sprint it depends on. Who's chasing it and it's it is is different. You know so by the way. I ride a show is different. I think to a lot of us. Comex because i'm taking it as a as a whole on that guy taking twenty minutes set and going. He's my best fifty minutes for matt and building off that you can see it in the structure. You can see it in the themes. You sort of. Remind me of chris rock and burghley the way that you'll reestablish a theme over and over say a key line touchstone and those are things you get over a long form. Show that i would say if. I was going to stereotype american comedy. You're not gonna see that as much. Even though chris rock courses american but that has that our that i think is particularly near a typical to to do that. I don't think chris rock is. Oh chris rock huntington's hundred percent your typical. I mean i feel like i'm not qualified maybe to diagnose but when i go to the seller or the comedy store i'm like it's one of the reasons to be honest. I was curious if i was because i'm looking around. I'm like if this is who i get on with this. I feel the most comfortable at i was. I think we're an interesting group. Just maybe not the most neuro typical group. So yeah i agree with you. Know there's a part of that problem in newest comedy coach. Is that the this seems to be. You have the ability to believe that you're doing it on your own because you separated from the the the structures yeah In melbourne lake to participate in the comedy festival. You have to rely on paper to help you get a show up you do it on you have to hustle on your own oil. You have so you kind of aware of the underpinnings of the things that you cannot do in order to make a comedy show work. Yeah i got america you can just i get on stage and do my thing and i'm magical on the medical. I do it all on my own. Science bullshit aid people with different skill. Sets you in order to like get it. Seems like it's the most individualist Foam and say agree. But it's not like nothing is you. Don't get to do comedy without a lot of people with a lot about the skill sets that you don't have it just made me write a street joke. Hannah what did the la comedian. Who went before you think. You're said he went home. I did i did too. I bet he would have gotten it. I shouldn't have just given a longer. Bazi definitely would have gotten something. I think as opposed them like. I can't imagine like he'd be chatting at the back of my mind. Was going kid. Montreal comedy festival. He's in his tesla he's found of next week. He's hustler you're right. I i did have a guy who followed me. Who just did hold said about how much he hated the net. Oh my god really. Yeah which was actually fine. Because it was so clear he was unstated like ida destabilized world worldview to such an effect that it was just like dude. Wow i there's a weird bullying that can happen in stand up. I'll never forget. I was doing a show and the first comedian. I i can't remember. It might have been a girl and the second guy went on stage and he just went. He wiped his brow. Will and even that i mean this is what i talk about. What i'm saying for me. Starting in comedy. I'm gonna use the dramatic. It was difficult for me as sort of like a sweeter more sensitive person. I was like you just fucking sold her out. I'm standing next to her. It's that's a. that's a heavy thing to process. It's some that's the competitiveness of it. That i find like that's that's what people say it adds is like who has the best joke. Conversation is in a conversation. It's topper topper tougher on top of a taupe and which is just the most as someone who observes conversation had dow that it to what. Comedians bakery is dull events in that in that context. And so you know one of the biggest foams of stand up in is roast. And i hate routes like food Like just if the point of opening your mouth is to be cruel not want anything to do that. Like it just feels awful and i'm not saying it shouldn't happen but shoulder there's other is this. No i understand. I have been known to enjoy a roast and i've known to do a and backstage. Everyone's crying so you you are not without a point. I mean that that needs to be reckoned with the good side of it. I think i like being roasted to give you the you like your name group. If you'll being roasted yeah survive. But i never been on the in groot again one of the privilege. That's that's to. Yeah i hear you so what. You're witnessing is like bullying. Yeah i mean you just help me realize this is the moment i'm realizing like of course you love being roasted. What is there. all. I can do is win by laughing if you make fun of my divorce for example and i laugh i just win but if i roast somebody who's actually as you say doesn't fit in. It's not as fun. Right is that we agree. Ed i mean you know it's just basically an excuse to analyzed prejudice. I'm yeah i mean yeah. That's very very very interesting. You used the word fitting in you say that you feel incorrect. Which was one of the most emotional parts of the show For me. I'm wondering how you're getting on with that now. And if you have anything to say to people who clearly relate to you even if their life is different but they relate the feeling of not fitting in they they relate to the feeling of being incorrect and as you mature and grow wiser what we say to people that feel that way. How do we how do we do. We want to fit him. Do we wanna feel correct. I think they'll get more understand that it's a conversation fitting is always a conversation you don't fit in truly unless you yourself like and such a a weird way of like what is yourself is basically. It's a way of being in the world that doesn't feel exhausting like if if in order to fit in your exhausted. That's not. yeah that's not you either. That's a bad story. You're telling yet. And so like i think but it's a battle. I i think. I think all the people should be much kind of young people like i think. That's just the first thing 'cause we're away like when it's all you're trying to do is to find that balance between who who who you wanna be. How how does the world not hate you. And i just don't think older people should pile on as young people trying to work that out. I think it's one of the laziest phones of comedy as older people going. Oh when i was young like yeah and look what the world is. Now you're old. You fucked it up. Shut up. I think people lose touch with what it's like to be young. I feel like that's a pretty is particularly successful people. Yeah yeah yeah so a little bit more grace from the older people. Has there been anything that's helped. You have to think that your expression on stage is help to you. Know yourself and feel more comfortable in your body. How you doing with that shame. I was raised religious. So i can't. I'm not even trying to compete. So please don't hear it that way. But i'm like i feel shame over being just sexual. It doesn't matter what it is straight. I was raised by lapsed catholic. Which is new mattress all the guilt. None of the holidays. So i kind of get it But this shame kind that. I experienced from all sorts of areas. Don't just my sexuality. It's my body type like you know i don't ever talk about my body on stage now Like that is. I draw a hardline. Name why because it's just an open open season on women's bodies so it's not just it's not just you. It's just the joke about my body because they've all been written and none of them none of them. None of those jokes about women's bodies give any room for women to experience their own body But econ escaped coats. You brought up in. You can't escape the fact that people do judge women serve. You know i. I get aloha stability about my my how i look and why. That's the reason. I shouldn't speak but you know. Sometimes that affects me. Because i was you know part of was raised. You know this part of the cruelty experience growing up. My body was wrong and that i was wrong in my body. So if there's any trolls out there listening you do. You do the way to company there. It is but also have the tools. Now that i'm older to understand that is and i'll just take a nap and get over it so you know it's now pipe but it's i really really really private person and so i struggle with not being nat anymore and i know i put it all out there but So you know it's it's given take but the sense of ownership that people have a sense of ownership about your ideas what you shouldn't shouldn't say and also limit to attic growth. That comes with sort of a touchstone. Success like ninette. Was they like this person now. So you know they want to trip you up with your own. What which is odd and somebody. I think i twisted an extent. I'm frozen in time to the person the lows the person that wrote didn't it but you don't get to have that experience of Changes that's very fair. What would we expect you not to change. After that was found extreme. I what i what i experience through. That was extreme and extremely destabilizing. We even talk about it in the net where someone says not enough lesbian content. Which i which you know I've seen other comedians gatt. It's like you're not doing enough for what you did. And it's like you know you're not you're a human being your evolving. You're changing. Do you feel that way facing another special desert if that's going to be a thing. What comforts me with. Anything i do now is that i was so ready to fail with that. That's how i'm gonna approach everything. I love that and it's not like i'll say whatever i want to say i take great care of what i'm putting out the world because i actually don't think that would harmless but on the same hand. It's like if i'm going to take risks. I think it's kind of fills important to me to sort of keep evolving and also like if i if i feel like i just like i had nothing like i came from absolutely nothing. Homelessness and snow options have made enough of a mark. you know Turned enough coin to live. If i live frugally enough and my vegetables grow each season. I'll be ryan you know. I'll be writing like in comparison to what my life was before the net. I'll just be right. Even if enough everything tach nap turns to absolute shit and on forever forgotten and you know in one generation time means nothing in I will be fine. And that's power. I mean empowering. And i believe. I mean we've seen it. I mean that is such a beautiful lesson for any artist. It's certainly beautiful for me that you were ready to fail expecting to fail. There's just something about the dark nights of the soul where you're just like fuck it people have to know. I have to say it. And that was one of your touchstones. I have to tell my story and isn't it so funny that ends up being the most successful thing. Yeah look stop giving a fuck. Yeah and i think everyone has to find that that on their. I think that there's a a. There's a danger in Tying will. I have to have this moment in order to have success like i just think people find success in their ways and there's so many different ways to to skin the comedy cat but i you know they say that you know. Take ten years of comedy to find your voice. And i always kind of rubbish that because i found my voices since i was on stage like i felt like i had this sort of ability in comfort in how i spoke on stage it did evolve always felt like i was but then sure enough ten years in the net. And i'm like. Oh yeah i get that now. I remember feeling the same way it was like. What are you talking about. This is me you think everything you do for. The first decade doesn't count doesn't feel that way but it goes in that's how it is. It goes in. So i think you know like i have a. I have such respect for the craft of comedy like i. I don't hate comedy as much as people would like me like to think i like. I just think it could broaden It could be a wider church I think it's really interesting. The the the policing of the joke tell me. I'm like you know. In order to be comedy. The lav has to happen last. And i don't necessarily describe subscribe to that. Light can like as long as i think is genuine laughter on as part of the journey. I think i think he get yeah. You know it's funny. Mike wrigley is one of my best friends. We talk almost every day. And i one time. I don't know why we're like. What do people say he was like he was like. I'll tell you what people say about you. If you tell them what they say about me and we did it and what i said that they said was he knows us. I was like people think you're like an npr one man. Show thing for the very same reason. Because mikey likes to go. Small any likes to go big. And he doesn't necessarily do the fifteen things in a row callback. Big flourish closer. He might end on like the new one ends with through my child's which isn't even a laugh line. It's just a you know it's like a it's a realization so you're not alone in that so that's what you mean by the policing is that am i hearing right. Yeah it's just like you don't get to participate because it's really weird in like people's like you know where the lust best hands free speech but you can't say it like that like what are you talking about a hypocrite. The you know i. I'm only saying that just so you know. I don't think you think you're alone. But i'm with you the discomfort that i felt i mean coming up in the clubs in the early two thousands and it was because i was religious that i was a little bit more sensitive to it but i also just you know i i would see stuff that would make me go like what the fuck is this. What is happening right now. Anywhere else that would be hate speech and this was a nod very woke person in two thousand three in chicago. It's not like i had my doctorate in lake sensitivity sensitivity. But i was still going like this guy just brought a bachelorette on stage and mime hunter. Like you don't have to be you know nobel peace prize winner to see that like what is going on with comedy so when you say a broader church name i'm with you. Yeah it's it's hard to break up a culture when you're in it like you know you can't blame almost camp like it's just such a shakeup because he's like how can you do you know how the people doing that probably doesn't like doing but i think that's what you have to do. And so then you're able to describe well it's just. Hey get the job. Done that thomas because other people are doing it like you know on nc like the fact. Donald trump can get laughs at a rally. Men's that comedy so true not much like you get a crowd baying after the same blood you to anything against not actually well. That's my biggest problem with comedy is just getting people to agree with things that everyone agrees with. You know what i mean. And not everybody but i really mean just like the broadest. Isn't it great to eat a pizza. You know what. I mean. And he does that with his own. Bevy of selections isn't a yeah. I mean he say that. Because that's the sort of thing hillary did. Isn't it eat pizza. I don't want to run out of time. And i know we only have ninety minutes and i wanted to ask you. We always talk about religion. You talked about your mother. Being elapse catholic but i wanted to answer the question however as most interesting to you how you were raised and maybe where you are now not even from a religious sense but just like were alive. I'm talking to you. And it's tomorrow in melbourne through the internet. And as you said you are a consciousness in your body it thinks this way. I'm a consciousness in this body. Thinks that way were both. We were both woken up on an intergalactic mystery that no one really understands and we're hurling through space. How does hannah gadsby even attempt to experience that process that frame. It do have an understanding of spirituality or wonder or whatever you got i. I always had a childlike approach to things which is like a home. Never know all the things. There's so many questions. I love a question and i to frustrate teaches at school because i ten an answer to a question reverse jeopardy studied taoism. That's how i get through life. Like i find because it's just one texts and the new A deep dive it it. It's a text that sort of allows you know ideas spring fall than as you mature. Your ideas around the text can change but it it really is one that avoids dogma with john appeals to me because you know something that's written way back in the day concert five under the pressure of dogma like i think dumber is what what kills spirituality dogmas. Now that's what i call religion. It's like those compilation cds like it might be popular for a time but after a while we're like what was trumbull wamba. I don't understand. And like when i read the data aging. I'm like this guy. This is such a cliche but it is reading me. I know that's it's like this trick where it pushes through me and it makes me mirror back something that i didn't know i believe or saw or or it gets me quiet. Which is which is way better than any of that. Yeah and because it's so many different translations. It's sort of appeals to my patent mind. You know like i can't speak be regional language and no one really can now like in. It's not I take solace in the fact that chinese skull is also struggle with the But you know it's sort of like yeah. This is enough room for me in that in that text and also enough room for me not to exist at all which is also i find. I've never search for meaning may like it's always made sense that we live in them. We die and the mystery of what happens after we die. Seems like an absurd one. I think most religions use it as a way of people. Behave better care. And i'm like well that's a that's the way the toddler more grown up than that. This is like had. I just because that's why i love that i love that. Had i not hurt things and other people because that's just not right. So yeah that's that's sort of. How i you know you know i find it a and i have one particular audio version of which i find incredibly calm comforting to listen which was that. It could need woman. It could needle. He just did this. Podcast stephen mitchell has a beautiful translation and it it. He's buddhist so he like sort of rift on some of the verses meaning. It's not a strict translation in even tells you about but the essence of it is carried. Through so yeah. I'm a little skeptical of the buddhist me. Why sort of i- i- swayed toward the dallas dislike prescriptive. I think what you mean is that what is it in particular that sorta ruffles you feathers or doesn't just probably richard. I wanted for the longest time hannah to do a bit about how richard gere movies in the nineties. Do you remember when cool was cool. Like that's richard gere in the nineties. I it wasn't actually cool but like wearing sunglasses on the tip your nose leaning on a corvette in a trenchcoat and being like hey get in the car. That's richard gere in the nineties and it wasn't ironic. That's just cool cool. Do you know what that is. That is a writer's room full of people on spectrum. That is so fucking funny. That is hilarious. What is cool. I dunno give him a trench coat. Of course what has lamb dunk. I loved that while i love. I love that answer. I don't think we have to labor this. I've enjoyed this year. Great guests so you just gave and gave and gave so. I'll ask you the final question which is always. Can you think of a time in your life that you laughed very very very hard. Doesn't have to be a great story. Maybe your kid. Maybe it was this weekend. Maybe you tripped Maybe you were tripping. i've got. I've been writing down things that i'd said that a funny yes like an up shared them with other people in Down the thing that makes people off and sala just radio few those. How about that. I would love that are you kidding. I'm honored i'm hungry. Do you see any food. i'm gonna it. I mean i hate it. I mean i'm hungry. Do you see any food is the most literal. i'm hungry. do you see any food. 'cause i'm gonna eat it. I'm hungry attitude too much work. And i don't understand where the food is. Don't ask me to suck a fat leaf and call it a vegetable. That wasn't my line but it made me laugh so much. Ninety percent nothing Just little conversation yes. He's a conversation. I had a. It was a while doing a crossword with a friend on on them on the zoom. Yes and i said a clue. This clue what's hot in Pickles and i said hip drunk and they said in my defense. I was thinking about hot as in spicy. Picked a sausage said. Sorry what she said same shape. I got it before she explained it. I was there on the shape. And this is i mean we're vibe and now is little things. I've been collecting those little things. They're the little things that they really make me laugh. I love my toes. I just wanted to as a fan as they're going to be another specialty. Think let's it's really what i do when the net hit and ever wanted to pay him in ever. And you know you're gonna do your tv show. And i'm like that seems like recipe fanaticism. Or what you know having your own show about yourself self directed by you. Show run my youth recipe fanaticism and yet. There's enough proof on the table. I think i can contribute to that proof that it is an ego trip for sure yet but no i also like that's a someone on this the play some. That seems overwhelming. I i'm so. I sat down with my manager. Ms like where do we want to go. what is my ideal career. Unlike laurie anderson. You don't you just does her thing. Yeah analysts like she's batch it and just does think thing she you know she says. I want to do this thing now. I wanna make it film now that you always does a live shows. Yeah good for you. I mean talk about people doing things for for reasons. That are other people's reasons rather saying stupid shit because part of the culture that we're not even aware of or reliving someone else's dream so i'm so happy that you're wise enough to go way. Wait what actually do i want to do. Not what could i do. But what do i wanna do. Don't if it's wise enough. But i'm tired enough i'll take it. I'll take it the success. When i was young. I would have had the energy to what you spend it otherwise but i don't have a lowly. It's get the great gatsby i mean. That's what it would have been on. Nbc i'm sorry i get what's up homes a lot. I'm sure you get great gatsby but What can we yours times. My last name is homes. No but what's the rift. You haven't heard that. Instead of homeboy homemade. Say home Let's see i would have gone elementary. But that's the other characters. That is when i as watson it's elementary. Yeah you're right. Would no shit sherlock. When i make a dinner reservation i'll say home's like sherlock and they laugh and i go. That's my mother. Which which. I think good thank you and i do want end on sincere note and say you really tremendous. I'm so grateful for what you're putting out there because it's healing it's connecting and it's putting more love into the world so i hope you feel. Well i feel good loving you. I don't i. It doesn't matter how you help. Would you end. We have the guests. Say the catchphrase. It's button for the episode. The catchphrases keep it crispy. And then we'll be done kepa crispy keep it crispy is that what is cape crispy corpus christi corpus christi. That's a corpus crispy. Chris keep keeping crispy incorporate speed cape it. Crispy pickle confused. You did it though you said keep it crispy so account crispy crispy come on komo now. We're pleading i like that. I hope they come off literally co reid by like that to come on guys. Keep it chris come up it crispy. I hope we get to meet in real life someday. Nice thank you for doing this. It was a delight. Pleasure pleasure Kepa crispy you keep crispy Don thank you so much. Thank you so nice to meet you. Nice to meet each day fifty. I'm so crispy wanted.