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Episode 256: We Need to Talk About Novak


The welcome to no challenges remaining. I am Ben Rothenberg and I am delighted on this week's episode to be joined by a friend of Mine Katrina Aka return winner on twitter Katrina. We were just talking before we were starting on when exactly we met. I feel like I've known you. You're on a known for a long time. And you're relevance to this week's episode or become clear sooner beverly. I met some time probably Australian Open qualifying so at that because you're a Melbourne. Ian Start that. Yeah Yeah So I think I was tweeting about Donald. Yang's mother being his practice and or being at his qualifying match and like kind of trying to encourage him in a very kind way. He was not reacting very well. Kind of telling her to shut up and I think I was sitting next to her and I was live tweeting it because it was quite funny and I think that that was the day that you may probably because of those tweets. I've always you anyone who's ever providing is on the ground or ears on the ground and qualifying. It's always very important dear person. It's because so many semi wild things can happen. A qualifying go completely completely Missing Yeah I think we've met shortly after that and I've seen you you've been an annual fixture of metrics smell we famously some famously and is relevant to this episode in a weird way we we were together a bit on researching. Darko grandchild off back in the day. Back in twenty eighteen. I guess that was yet many good times together and I am delighted. You are here on the show. So thank you for being here. No problem We are mostly here because this episode is going to talk a bit about the nature of Fandom in tennis and more specifically often Novak Djokovic Phantom and you are a very devoted Novak Djokovic fan or you have been for a long time and I'm just curious if you can tell your story of how you gotTa tell you started falling. Novak what you're sort of how how you became invested in Innovation Joke Mitch as as a fan. Yeah well I became a fan like basically like I think the night that I saw him play federal in two thousand eight Australian Open semifinal and previously like I kind of gone to the tennis because living in Melbourne. Like you just kind of go. If your family's into in my mind is so I cut have always go to the tennis. But I wasn't really invested in any kind of flyer. I guess like if I would say that I would want any particular player to win. I would say it would be federal because that was the player that I knew most well which you know might by surprise. Some people now given like shorts Roger Dodger Fan lately. That's okay no I mean I'm not. I have a lot of opinions about Roger and not role particularly nice or kind. The basically the what I saw her back. I think he had like an interaction with past Maria during that match. Who gave him like a time violation at At like a bit of an awkward moment and he kind of like kind of gave. If you're a fan of Novak you'll be familiar with a bit of a desk stare that he has So you kind of had a really interesting attitude that I don't think a lot of players at the time had so that was kind of why like how I I became a fan of him like I actually hadn't. I didn't actually get to see him until Hopman Cup two thousand eleven because there would be things that would happen. I think one year I had tickets to a like a night where he was playing. But I was on Rod Laver and he was on a high sense. I ended up watching Lleyton. Hewitt won't the packers playing against I don't know some random. So but so the the first time that I saw him was to doesn't eleven Hoffman cop where he just shaved his head because he had one yeah cod and so then. That was the first time I saw him but I didn't really interact with him because I'm not particularly like I don't go up to players like not really interested in southeast autographs or anything like that but to be clear you'd been for following tracking hits results between these two time seeing him in person. Yeah you between eight and between twenty seven. Yes yeah I think I joined twitter in two thousand ten Which was like no worst season at least for the first eight months of it so like I was not in union the time and I was kind of working a little bit but it wasn't particularly fulfilling so for me. Ten like watching like being really obsessive. Novak was like a good outlet for my interest and just to get more into this. Obviously I've many many positive about Novak. Obviously you do too and I want to focus on that definitely to build the foundation for this episode. So what was it about Novak that drew you towards him so much of it you mentioned this der was it was at it was at the one was her love at first deaths there or was it something else about his percent of the kept. You kept you getting attached and getting invested in following him and tracking him and thinking he was worth you know keeping up with as a fan. Yeah well I mean I guess like like the way that I kind of engage in fandom is I tend to like players that are not necessarily stand favorites. I find really off putting when like certain players like pushed on you as like. Oh this is a fan favorite. Like I really don't like Songa because he was really pushed as like this guy Great with fans and things like that and I didn't like that he was being pushed on. May I mean if you're a Novak San you'll know the like the perception at least is that the media does not pushing back on people. I mean if anything they tell you like run in the opposite direction so I guess like this kind of like Maybe a bit of mystery. That was there like what I really liked about. His run in two thousand eight was that the crowd is so against him especially during the song mashed because Songa was. I think kind of like a bit of like like I said I mean the fan favourite and he goes like this unknown and an underdog. Yeah Yeah and people really wanted Songa to win and I couldn't really figure out why they were so against Novak Like I kind of had this thing where I like to go against the direction. The crowd is going in. Sure it's a bit of a contrarian kind of streak unfortunately so that was kind of like why I got invested in Novak and then like throughout the rest of his I mean especially between two thousand eight two thousand ten. He didn't really have a lot of moments where the like the crowd was like particularly on his side. I mean if you think back to the Andy Roddick matching doesn't eight your son and where I think Andy had said something about kind of sarcastic thing but also not really because they also actually don't like each other and hit send something about Novak having like twenty seven injuries. Sars bird flu whatever common cold I remember that. Yeah Novak got a reputation to that point at least among Andy Roddick for one of you know of talking too much Sort of leaning injuries too much now was a a knock against him early in his career that he was like a fragile that you know he would retire from matches more than other players liked or that he would talk illnesses. Whatever and yeah so the Bachelor Roddick. Trash talks him and then He. The judge beats him in a night match. I think quarterfinals. I WANNA say at the at the open and the crowd in no Duxford Egged on the crowd and the interview afterwards necessary. Booing him and that was sort of a lot of ways that was yeah like Novak sort of more overt. He'll turn to you the wrestling term. Yeah I mean I think Novak said something like I was really happy to beat him on his own turf some or something to that effect which is probably not going to get a bunch of like Rowdy New Yorkers on your side but I kind of like that because I think I like to see that kind of tension between players so you know for me that was like great guy and I think I think Novak definitely has the energy and a lot of ways and those are some of honestly my favorite mobile Novak moments too is. We're Novak just sort of a little bit more. Deaths stare or middle finger to the world about everything about like. You said this because you talk about the fans in Australia. I mean really unfortunate story of premature whole career sense to is never become the crowd darling and that his ability to fight through that into whether that to win in spite of that or to spite that is something that I've found really fun a lot of ways. This has to be as his challenge that he's been dealt in this world for a lot of reality arbitrary reasons also. I think we can get into why people said they don't like Novak in a bit but I think that Yet like method. Novak moments is Twenty fourteen world tour finals when he won that semi final against Cory and he In the crowd was so furnish the whole time. You should corey. Who's like with your support? There's no reason for a London crowd to be going nuts for Nishikori as they were that day except for out of Animus towards joke bitch and Jovic. One guy handed the pen to sign the camera and just like drew a small dot on the Lens and walked away it was a wonderful beautiful protests of him. Saying I'm over all of you people and goodbye that I. I don't know I found that really. Really sort of get endearing and charming and defiant in a lot of ways that I you know. I see similarities myself in that certain You know some of my prouder moments. I feel like it when I don't care people think and to sort of you know can stick up for myself in yet so I I gravitated towards that a lot and I get the sense. Obviously you're simpler with Novak in terms of some of your favorite no that moments. It is kind of those moments of Being undaunted yeah and I mean like I think those like the Edmund match at Wimbledon. I WANNA say like two thousand seventeen or something like that. Where like you know. Obviously nobody's playing against an English player but there was no reason he wasn't doing anything to make people angry but they're being so awful to him. You know and I think rightfully he has a right to get angry and frustrated that and I think at one point there really being quite aggressive towards him and he started blowing them kisses while like while beating Edmund. Personally I know for some people like they say that. I think I'll close less but I'm like. Isn't that the human thing to be angry that you're not doing anything wrong? You're being you know yelled at can you? There's also swing specifically galling having been in these stadiums with a really partisan Wimbledon crowd because Wimbledon acts. Like they're so above the fray in terms of this they're like August which Applaud gentleman and good shot making and dotted but yet when they have some. Brit who invested in. Who they think has a chance of a real meaningful win and the Out To me most drums out to me. Most in this scenario is when Heather Watson nearly beat Serena like they. It was the loudest stadium. I've been in very possibly on my time there. They were so loud. So like I want to say blood thirsty is too much so incredibly loud throng people yelling and cheering for heather against Serena. And that's Serena turn to the crowded little finger-wagging don't try me at one point. She also that was gristle by two and yeah and so and so yes and no. That has that all the time. The only reason I hesitated on saying Heather Watson and Serena was a Lotta stadium because I was also in the stadium. I guess it was two thousand fifteen years final Federer Jovovich which was a crazy. Which was the one of the most. Partisan atmosphere is ever. And it's for Roger. It's not American and theoretically should be a neutral ground for smash but it'd been like rain delayed by. I think three hours or so before that match started so a lot of people in the stands had time to go drink for those three hours. Kill time and so they even routier Graffman than normally would be and yeah and that like Novak was able to weather that storm and win despite having you know literally generously one percent of that crowd of twenty thousand people on his side with something you again that it makes the achievement. I'm sure all the sweeter and I think that that was actually your pinch tweet for a long time as the moment of him winning that match and so those are the sort of things that you know whether or not actually embrace being quote unquote or not. I don't think it's really relevant to things but this is just how it is. This is how it's shaken out for Novak. And he you know he's he. He's you know been opened recently that bidding to like. I don't get the fan support against those guys. I think it's against more than just those two guys. It's a different issue. But who whatever reason he did not win the favor of the public and has to deal with that for his whole career and I think given so much of that I think. He's sent an incredibly admirable job of staying You know as as as respectful as he has in a lot more than that. I'm sure I would. And on respect generally like I've said before on twitter like I think his sportsmanship on court has been certainly in. The last decade has been super impeccable. He's one of the best to giving back points. Like he thinks you know points to be replayed or conceding points at that which I think are like really really meaningful sportsmanship gestures where you know you're decreasing your chance of winning a match by giving away point and nobody does that without hesitation a lot in way that again. I Great and I. Yeah and so. I'm curious when you've been in conversations. How much you talk outside of the Novak Fandom to people about Novak people who are fans of the other other other other families in this gang war so to speak. But I'm curious. How how you grappled with being as a fans you know such still such like a niche that you know that what you see. Novak that other people don't seem to appreciate me That frustrate you or is it something that you have that you encouraged you will not be fans of him or how how do you. How do you deal with being the stadium marine for Novak when like I said he's almost as you know he's like Neverthe- crowd favourite matches your at? How do you use sort of reconcile that with your own admiration for him? Yeah well I mean it's difficult. I remember those one instance where actually the crowd is in his favor. Because I was at The Belgrade Serbia Czech Republic Davis Cup Peiser. Yoga crowded his victory. Yeah I mean one of the few places riot And I think Novak was playing Roddick I wanna say and yeah and the crowd was like so crazy for Novak that I found it off putting almost to cheer for Roddick but I was also like out. I mean probably wouldn't be the best ball to like turn on But you know Sofa made this like there's a bit of back and forth but like you know by like designed like because I know nobody wants to be liked so you know. It's always nice when he gets those kinds of random moments where people decide that they like him or they cheer for him like the French Open. Two Thousand Fifteen against Branka where the crowd is really nice. Often basically have is heartbroken again at Roland Garros and gave him a standing ovation. Like I really enjoy that. They gave him that because I think they they always knew how much he wanted to win that tournament and to be so close and to have beaten raw in the round before and then lose to Stanford Franca again you know. I think it was really nice that they gave him that. You could see that meant a lot to him. But for me as Mike my own perspective. As a bit of a contrarian fan I sort of in a way. Don't mind if the crowd is going to be crazy against him because actually like I think like in some circumstances like where he gets kind of like a bit of a low energy. I guess like like this year. The the Michigan's team where he was in this like funk of like very very low energy. For some reason assuring you yeah yeah. I actually like having a crowd really against you can kind of help you and I think there have been have been matches like say against Roger where the crowd has been so like so vocal that nobody gets inspired to be a bit like well. Fuck you. I'm GonNa like bet you and then you know. Rub It in your face. I kind of like that and I like when he embraces that role. I'm like look these people are never going to like. You never going to show respect for you so why not in. Just go all out at that point do you do you find like he's you obviously know about. Novak fans very well no Fam Assay Fan Noli famous as call themselves. When there's do you find that in the Nevada that it is a lot of people? Who the contrarian necessarily do identify that in themselves or Obviously a lot of Serbs of are huge part of Novak's FANDOM And most obvious sort of birthright fandom there for him and he's a to Serbia and that's a whole different different story but what he meant as a sort of post you know that I'm becoming. They're getting their footing as an independent country. Having no come up and be a number one in the world was incredibly meaningful to Serbia. And they really saw him as a champion in so many ways but But what are you see in victim? How would you describe what people people that you've talked to you? What what you guys have in common if something that makes you know vaccines in. We'll get a little bit more adept at like the General Novak fans are like but DC similarities in your own your own sort of origin story. That people have more or less. Yeah I mean I think I think there's a bit of back and forth between fans were like with Novak. Where like as much as we like? You know the crowd cheering for Novak and we kind of get upset when the crowd particularly awful towards him especially when it's very much unwarranted which I think a lot of the time it is because he doesn't people bitch and Moan about Novak hitting balls out bolts out of the stadium but a lot of time doesn't really do a whole lot that you know would upset people So I think like people do get upset when they kind of see what they view is unfairness towards Novak especially like in terms of engaging with other fans on twitter but at the same time I think we also kind of like it when people are so against Novak and that he wins anyway. Because it's kind of like you know you had everything kind of going in your favor. Like a player Roger for example. You know when you're playing against Roger Cross Rogers Like a great player. And you have like you have this entire stadium cheering for you to win. And then Novak still wins. So there's a bit of like sort of pride there in that you know. We like sort of overcoming overcoming. The you know the player as well as the crowd. So there's sent there's a bit of like kind of back and forth waiting like what like what do we really want. We WANT TO BE LOVED. Or a we dwayne joy that he's kind of it. I don't think like I don't think fans are Novak. Grants are kind of like there's a bit of a I guess bipolar bipolar. Nece there You know we. We go back and forth depending on the mood situation share. I get that how you you've been active on twitter. Obviously like you said you joined in twenty ten and ten years as it Novak Fan on twitter how how would you characterize the the Novak Phantom? Ooh Well I guess like I would say broadly this kind of it's kind of split between People who are Would classify themselves as Nola Fam- so people who might have the the Crocodile the crocodile in their twitter bio or the twitter name Versus maybe more people who are a bit like May and kind of the people who I tend to like tend to enjoy talking to the most where we kind of take a bit more critical critical. You what we can get more into the critic. We'll get into this sort of division of fandom in a bit but I'm curious what your even just a cursory look at your profile will show that you have your photo is picture your avatars picture of Novak with a Halo over his head. So it's very clear where you stand on. Novak twitter was but what against the crocodile signifies something Novak sort of like a a me more like a sort of a meant to be like an attacking animal? Or what is the crocodile and obviously the cost sponsor? But I'm not sure why Elsa Crocodile Kim to be you know more about the crocodile or story is there is more to it. I have no idea like why like why or when everyone decided to start using the crocodile. It's not a trend that I've ever joined and I don't plan on joining it But I think like part of it might be kind of like Like identity kind of signalling you know. A lot of twitter is about building up your identity online so I think part of that is kind of like creating an identity within Noga within tennis phantom that distinguishes us from other fans and other do this as well. I mean I think there are some Roger Fans who will have one hundred plus three I think is the number now to signify the number of tournaments. He's one yeah. Yeah and stuff like that. So offense kind of do it a why I mean. I think it's the crocodile because the cost a relatively recent. I wasn't sure if it went back further than that and were young. I mean I have no idea. I'm not like I'll be honest. I'm not part of the crew. That has the crocodile and I don't tend to follow people who who are. I think they follow. I'll I don't have a problem with you on the crocodile in your in your bio you know. Do to be one. It's just not really my style fair. Enough Fair enough. I guess one of the things I associate with. Novak mentioned this earlier but I want to get to a little deeper is like not feeling like Novak has gotten the respect he deserved deserves. Activated serves or has served entrances. Urban will deserve all three of those things And Yeah I certainly get that fully from Novak Fan perspective. I think that you know I mean like even just a little slight. Think almost mean more like when he's on court at the Australian Open I think for kids day or something And they put his name on the backdrop and is a five letter. First name image spell it wrong like how do you do that like I mean? That's those sort of things would not happen to Roger or Rafa and I do think that is. Those are very real complaints as much as you know like you will make the joke like you might be paranoid but sometimes they really are after you. There is some truth in a lot of truth in that with Novak fans and then he has gotten a big deficit of a lot of the respect. He's earned through his results. And obviously you know. I'm not telling anybody who to be a fan of who do what with but I do think that Novak has been generally hard done by by tennis phantom certainly by some media for sure and I do think it's sometimes exaggerated in people again disgust paranoid people go looking for things and trying to everything has to be part of some grand plan in certain people's is that. I don't think really holds water but I do think there is a case it. In general broad terms yes. Novak has been disrespected or given given a lack of respect for things and and I understand that as a as a driving force behind Making fans more militant. I guess I I do understand that in theory I think it obviously goes way too far and oddly misdirected. And it's not you know it's never really convincing it's more off-putting than anything. A lot of ways but I do think that there is yes some some basis that. I'm I'm just curious how you've seen that part too. As Novak says we we talked a bunch of the beginning obviously but what his his first Grand Slam. I don't think we explicitly Australian Open. Two thousand it was his first Grand Slam and now being seeing him all number. Seventeen this year How do you see how Novak's position in the sport has has changed? How people to that. A mining editor here your assessment of of of his current profile at a PRI PRI PRI PRI crowned profile. Will I mean I think the lack of respecting I mean I know there is a tendency to view it as like? Oh will these people just being conspiratorial and it happens to every player but the reality is that it doesn't you know if you're the number one player in the world and the slam where you've won your most like the most amount slams has spilled your name wrong on two separate years on two occasions you know and there isn't like an immediate rush to fix it you know. It's not a difficult name to spell. In my opinion I name certainly not no. Yeah I mean I can understand it if it's like some some qualifier ranked two hundred. I think the tournament to definitely be getting the players names right but if you're some player ranked two hundred. I can understand you know. Okay you get it wrong but this is someone who one year tournament? What seven times what are you doing Lack of rush to fix it after fans have been complaining about it. You know vocally So does that kind of stuff and I think like people will say well. You're being petty but there's also light people use incidents like that to kind of like say well. Novak is obviously two hundred justify other other things like that happen within the sport where we feel like nobody's done by so for example if Novak not given like Wrote Labor night match and federal skipping. The night match will people will say well you know. He's not if people spelling his name is not as relevant to the tours. Roger so rogers has more fans so nor should get these Preferable timeslots and that matters and tangible ways you know like people like they say the doesn't but it's like if you are getting the night match for every single match that you play and then the semi final is the night match and the final is the night match and then during the day it's thirty seven degrees and people. Are you know bulkheads or fainting? But you get to play when it's thirty degrees in the sundown that it matters that. Matter Fisher. Yeah and I think there was that one that one year where Roger God I think almost every match the night match on Rod Laver and I think no. Gawk was playing against Face and that was the obvious I think second round and that was the obvious match gone nine match on labor that they much of the day and then it went to Roger V. I dunno struck. You know so. It's it's things like that that I think really great on really great on Noga fans or things like we know win. Wimbledon will give Roger. We'll give Novak the the shitty match on What is it court one court one? Yeah Yeah towards the towards the tail end of the tournament so everyone everyone plagued plays one match on court one but they put Novak's towards the end works more challenging and maybe a rain delay like that year against a sand quarry or area. Well yeah it was more Michigan. There wasn't a roof you're right and so when the roof on but not in court one. Yeah I think there is a year where it was against It was like a fourth-round match on a second she'll simone or something and he didn't get to play on Monday because he was on the ruthless court and there was some long match. I think it might have been modern at all. That went long before him or something. Yes I mean those are again like any one of those isolation. I think people can look at say okay. These things can happen to any player like you know. Take it easy but yes I do. Think there is a degree. It's complicated because like I said at the beginning there are there are. Ac's for real slights. That have happened to Novak and there are ones that his fans perceive a slight set is a you know pretty pretty pretty objective person. Don't always some yes. Some no and I think Novak fans especially you know some of the more militant ones that I've said will see the slights in everything and we'll start coming up with things that just I think everything is built against Novak in such a grand conspiracy like ridiculous thing to me. This is getting a little you know. I don't get too into this. But like I don't know who came over the Hashtag Briggs Fam- which is this idea like Simon Briggs? It's running a WHO's a journalist for the Telegraph is running ball that's conspiring to destroy. Novak and has like sources in the deep state of the ATP or all tip and it's preposterous and with all due love to Simon like he's not he's not like a Mafia don type. It's just not his personality know it'd be Nice I you know. I just don't think he has that much free time or energy to do this. Honestly people project onto him and decide this this this Mr the sworn enemies of Novak and then come up with lists of Novak's biggest haters. Who's like against him all the time? And it's just like as someone who's you know often bumped into that it's exhausting and I hope you. You don't have to vouch me of us if you want. But we've had plenty of talks very offline you know at Cumulus or wherever time in Melbourne where you know I've not I think you've seen a little bit behind the curtain of least how my mind works in the in the press room like I'm not no no one's out to get Novak Snack. Not I think there are things he gets criticized for whether it's and you can say a quick around the trigger with him than they are with other players and that's fine but usually either. It's something that would probably get criticized for anybody like I think he must specifically of like this last year. I guess it's only a year ago. The Gimelstob stuff when Novak was sort of with fairly sturdily standing behind Justin Gimelstob. Justin Gimelstob name was this sort of political ally. Atp was After he was arrested and charged with a service salt and little rust in the details of this now is Halloween Tacking Novak as the player council was standing by him and not calling from to step down or whatever and Novak seven people. I'm sure have seen the video of in Rome. Felt like I was unfairly. Singling him out for that and we had our back and forth there and then we've been really truly fine since then people are like. Oh you always h on the point to that one thing is like there's like ten years worth of me. Talking to Novak in press conferences. We had like one bad. You know there was like ten. I actually came out of it with a with a lot of respect for Novak in that moment to show before but like that Novak with so doggedly determined and like unflinching entire time it went on way too. Went on for like eight or nine minutes or something. It felt like even longer than that. I've watched the video back but like he just like it. Give me a real sense of what it's like to play like a baseline rally Novak. I was like wow. This guy does not blink. Like this is really a war of attrition and a very classic joke of its Competitive Way. I was like I now sort of understand what it feels like to be. I don't know whoever the cannon fodder isn't the first three rounds show up and who he tears through it was like it was a it was an eye opening experience. Oh say I don't I? There may be a little bit of of Novak. I don't know there is. There is not no reason that people should be defensive about his treatment but also at the same time. I think the the antenna are tuned. Way Way Way too sensitively. Yeah and I mean I think of another kind of like grand conspiracy has been constructed. I think a row involving like Labor Cup And like Kylie. I don't know if you heard about this one but I think there's a general idea that like Craig tally along with like the tennis Australia. Because they have some sort of investment with Labor Cup they were giving like like preference to Roger and Denigrating Novak through that In terms of like Corp License in Melbourne again. Or what I have no. I didn't pay. The person who posted is not someone who I liked particularly trust to be like a reliable source so Zur. I saw that it was like some sort of conspiracy floating around about like Craig Tighly Tennis Australia. Labor Cup Roger. All being and like I think Rod Labor as well all like. Oh man could get very like. I don't know if you ever watch. It can get very homeland wall at times. Where like people are which you know can work at the Gordon I bounce back and forth at different moments. Attendance for like people are trying to find connections between things in like pull it all together and figure out what the grand scheme and the spider webs coming out of people are Yeah so like I think and and this is the other thing. I'll say that Novak I think Novak is a tremendous person player of person to be a fan personal in contacts context. Because Novak in my experience you can get into maybe after this your on personal interactions that you've had many of this point but that. Novak is so good with his fans like Novak. I've seen Novak so many different times Indian Wells. At Cincinnati of the chiefs remain terms. Were stance can get kinda closer have been able to witness him more where he will other players very very frequently veer out of the way towards you know getting just going towards transport like no that will swerve towards people instead of away from them whenever you and. I think he really is because as you mentioned because he does have fewer supporters disturbed by numbers and other top players. I do think he really is grateful for the that he has and I think he really does appreciate them. Goes Out of? Its Way to make sure that everybody comes to see him much. I'm sure there's been moments where he's like walkway from some. I'm sure someone will have some disturbances. Every player does like in my in my anecdotal evidence to Novak. He's incredibly great at going around and making sure every bottle of CIDER selfish taken remember at the Cincinnati. Finally a couple of years ago. He stayed on court and signed like the entire perimeter of the stadium and it took someone waiting for to come to press. It took a very long time for him to get a department but like hit him. Doing that You know again. I thought spoke very highly them. So it's sort of interesting to them on that level. I think are great justified. And it's frustrating to me at times. Yes that people don't see that don't appreciate that part of him and I'm sure this is where you can sort of go into your own sort of dealings with what it's been like. Nick you have said you're not somebody who goes after southie autograph forever but you have definitely spoken to Novak. Haven't you? Yeah permits you tell you when again to you can say whatever you want here but yes yeah headed in imperfect interpersonal trash with him. Yeah I mean Novak is always someone who's treated me very very well as a fan. He always. I think that I would speak very generally about this. I think that he He always goes out of his way to make his fans feel special and appreciate it and it's never in feels like it's of the cost way like all. Thanks for coming but it's always like you can kind of sense. It really does mean a lot to him that you're willing to be this invested in him as a player and I think I remember one year in London. He was talking to me and my friend and he said like thank you for supporting me and don't have a lot of fans here so really means a lot and you could tell he really meant that because especially I think especially in London it you know. He really doesn't have a lot of fans. Enter people are not just that he doesn't have lower fans but also that people are very much against him And quite vocal about it but in every experience that I've ever had with nobody wishes and I would say I'm GonNa go out of the white and say like Oh we're best friends but like I do have like lower kind of little private moments with him where he's always been extremely respectful of. May and my friend and he's always made us feel like we were appreciated and not that we were like wasting his time or he couldn't wait to get out of there or anything like that so I've always felt that he was very very respectful in that sense and like and also like interested. Kind of like in what you're doing with your life you know. He knows that I. I was studying in London. Things like that so so. I think to have that not just with like you know someone who you're a fan of but also someone who is like the number one player in the world and who. I think we'll go down as probably the greatest player of all time. I mean not to jinx but I think he's on track today. Most slam-winning is whereas that's what you mean by intensive intensive slam. I mean we can get into the minutia about like how you determine. Who's the goat? But I think most people would most people would say if you want the slams. You've made a pretty compelling case for yourself. I'M NOT GONNA try to debate at Andt if not gonNA come an anti Novak argument hypothetically in this episode of But I mean like he's always been and the thing is is that he doesn't kind of he doesn't want you to use that as like As like a use you as vehicle for like. He's never tried to use like his interaction of. May or the people who I know who are also like fans of his. He's never tried to use that in a way. That's like self promotional look how good I am with my fans in fact quite the opposite kind of like. Tell us to like Oh. Don't tell anyone about this or you know drug posted on social media things like that. Yeah well I can tell you. Just how unique that intimate I remember a moment I will not say who this player is but I a great player definitely like a future hall of fame lock. I think kind of player mum I was once at a promotional event. They were doing and they like had a bunch of their fans. Waiting them out. You know probably got there like you know our show the sort of photo op. Kind of thing they walked. They made sure that their agent was like getting pictures or video of them like signing autographs and then as soon as they thought they got enough for their own. You know social media video purpose like they stopped and walked away and it was purely a performance thing. And that's what that's more getting to know that there really is a real genuine interaction. And I haven't had that many moments with Novak casual in the hallway. Someone who just by coincidence. I don't run into that much for whatever reason to tournaments but we did have a long chat With each other which I was not as bleary for Christmas Day landed for my trip from the US to Brisbane this year for ATP Cup where he was planning now talking to him and his brother Marco and he was just like you know super attendant asking this question of what you know what I do and I'm not at tournaments and different things like that and it's it's not the kind of curiosity or personal openness yours different players and again that shows and this again in the midst of all of fans saying I'm like number three on the list of top ten haters of Novak or whatever raking I had at that given week like I mean it's sub doesn't seem to affect him that much and I found him generally. I'll be from pure writing. Point of view is answers are way too long. He drones on and about things the different issue and get to the point or kind seems to try to filibuster tries to run out the clock reading the wikipedia article given topic. It seems like sometimes but that's the miser nitpick with him but as a colleague and being professional deal with like really really no complaints there so and I think he has handled like I said at the beginning of a lot of adversity in terms of perception and fandom and everything I think for the most part really really admirably so that can kind of put two TS. Twenty fourteen London Novak terms dot on this portion of the center before we get more recent developments. Well I would say like like in your defense because i. I've seen the reply to solve your tweet suggesting that. You're like a Novak Hater. I definitely don't think that having interacted with you I think you're like much more like neutral. You know. Report the facts as they are. Well thank you. I also just think that like people. I think it is again construct whether it's Novak fans weather's federal federal at least from honestly whether it's Novak whether it's the doll fans whether it's Serena fans whether it's Sharipova fans people are always so attuned to criticisms of their player or even just like things that are even like neutral Outwardly praising of their player that like they see those those affected more so like. I would have I could easily come up with a five ambitions that would all tell you go no then route. The hates are player most of all and that kind of like signals that. I'm sort of doing things in my way right. And also you know it's a choice that I made to not be someone who's particularly after all my colleagues under the bus at once but I'm not particularly like trying to go soft and hopes of buttering up a player and getting good access for interview. I am outspoken on twitter. More than most you know sometimes been wisdom happy with times of ways that I regret certainly but that's just sort of how. How reporter is someone who I feel obligated to coffins as I see them serve. There are moments with whoever whether it's Novak In this current moment we'll get into shortly whether it's you know the doll being very milquetoasty at best about he will pay in prize. Money whether it's better given us really disingenuous tweet about Just wondering dot dot dot should the tours merge or whatever he's lately I'm happy to call those things out and say like that's nonsense or whatever it may be with other top players mentioned Serena Sharapova. Whatever like yeah and so. I think people see that nothing more about me that needs to be but I think people see that and Wreck to it in there which has been a lot of the case segue in the last couple of weeks. Yes that's the tours stopped. Novak has been quarantining. He left the. Us Wells USA Inc. Pretty quickly and people were like a doesn't really matter what he was in the beginning. I don't know Zach detail. When he left her why he left but he goes to Europe for quarantining. He's been more recently based in Marbella in Spain. I believe where he has a training base in. I don't know if it's still still the pepe emails place. You must wasn't span on the war. In Spain pepe was Peppy does have a place in mobile APP. But I'm not sure if Novak still like with him like. I know that I think Marco might live in Marseilles fulltime as possible. He's like Marcus place yet possibility. Yeah Yeah it was definitely a house that I didn't recognize it so I don't think he's posted on. I mean sorry. This is really creepy. But I just I just showing your Bona Fides as I did not recognize this house. He said this could get them a anyway. So I'll say Novak has taken his time it's content strategy to call weird word to use for individual but what he's doing Novak is has been doing a few instagram live chats with some people with whom he has conversations about issues that joys and we haven't gotten into this sort of all this whole conversation but Novak is very very really sort of started with twenty eleven when the whole gluten free things started. I think too that the reason why his career transformed his results picked up so dramatically and twenty seven three slams that year and was something very dominant he is up and since then wrote. His book served win with a lot of sort of health. It was mostly like nutrition book largely. And then there's Any other things which I think he thinks are connected and maybe are connected otherwise about meditation Earth. Mindfulness and things like that anyhow. He wanted the reason. We're doing this episode on Novak now. Is it the last two three weeks maybe just to I think three weeks? He's had on his a guest. This guy his name. I very tentative not used. Twitter at of people hopefully picked up on that. They don't want to give this guy more publicity than it has but I will say it here just for clarity this guy named and not even sure how to pronounce it another reason. Not Making your risk. I have to say here. I think it's like sure Wien Jafaria I think so I I try to I try. This guy has much as I can't. Yeah anyway so Novak could had the sky and I just call him this guy tweets. We'll just sort of. It's the sky on three weeks in a row now. He was just on recording. This late late late Wednesday night slash early Thursday morning. My time inserts time now Austrailia and this guy has been talking to Novak about all sorts of things which Novak enjoying and the content gets very like technical science. Very quickly like. There's a lot like this guy loves throwing around by huge SCIENC- words to show how much he knows and some of the stuff when I to dinner when I really got into this for first time and I saw clips on posted of the sky talking about how giving Spiel. This is the first video that I posted my. My twitter had just took somebody else on twitter or to the share video thing whenever it was him talking about how there have been research that like positive thinking formed more beautiful crystals in water if it was adjacent to the positive thinking and it was like. I was just like Novak Nodding Alami like Yes I was like what is happening here this is Lewis it was one of the wildest things and I had not seen it. I'm not interested in Novak's kind of you know interest in this previously. I'm not saying that and I was curious about the whole pepe emails thing which we need to get into in context this if you. WanNa to about your own through that moment career. But there's nothing to talk about. That was particularly always intrigued. By but seeing this. I was really baffled so I went through back through watched some of the other moments in this and it was really boring so I- skim through parts of it but the The Times that I did sort of slow down look here things it was just. It's like very very enthusiastic from both of them Especially Novakovic obviously is the one who has like seven. Something million instagram followers. It's he's the one who's the show here really saying. Some things that were very confident in very interesting about science ahead like nothing to do with reality and then the guy whips out his bottle of golden mind is the name of his and starts telling about how like how great in mind is. Mike. How it's a wonderful thing and that's when like that moment of seeing him another channel nodding along with that was really like okay. This is like this is a scam. Change for me from being just like you know. Sort of innocuous. Sharipova was on his instagram earlier. I I don't watch Iranian still lives. I'm on a fan of the format but Novak was on the share earlier in choosing making fun of him. I think she called a tree or something like that. So like there's kind of side. Novak people see as being a little bit like in the clouds science spirituality. Type stuff you know. And that's I really. I don't have that kind of stuff. It's when you start preaching people that you have solutions for things in this. Golden Mind bottle. This guy whipped out and they went on corrupt bullman fifty dollars for like a like tiny like three ounce bottle and you get like the fault way to get it. It's like a subscription where renewed every month and just like that's just taking advantage of people in this like really very quickly changed my sort of agitation level on this. I think it's fair to say rose like very quickly very mad. That Novak was giving this guy who's not like King scammer must be clearly. This is kind of like not a not Novak's Love Hall not somebody who's like really one of the leaders of industry. Anything his own youtube video that he has posted a of his lives. Get like a couple of hundred views. The ones I've seen his instagram follow. That's worth is like forty eight thousand forty seven Leagues Leagues which is way more than mine. Sure but like it's way below Novak's and so my instagram instagram. Or that much professional anyway and just seeing Novak like endorse invalid the guy with his credibility and I do think Novak has credibility and as a platform and has and makes an issue. I see that with his Phantom how much she means to certain people and how much you read certain people in certainly that's twenty times more in Serbia whereas said mentioned in passing earlier on. He's such a massive figure seeing Dorsey things. And also there was the whole issue previous to this where he was on a zoom chat with a bunch of other serving athletes and make statements that were very skeptical of vaccines. And there's some debated push poll about like what exactly he was referring to the against. All vaccines are against that vaccines. It might be rushed into market with the charitable spin statement there but but Novak was given chances. I was working Chris. I was sort of adding about doing anything really the Serb was there with other people's Chris Clara. Who Wanted Brian? The story for The Times was rechovot team in in Nova. Got a chance to walk that back into the much more clear and he really didn't take anything back that he said that he with said in the initial Reuters report. Which is what broke this. There's a serpent reporter for Reuters English version of the story that got picked up. And that's what got people realizing. He'd said this because it was a relatively small serving audience so and then back yet did not walk that back to not clarify and it's sort of in some ways kind of double down on Again characteristically defiant in his own way. And I'm not. I'm not going to keep doing this. I will say I did watch their most recent thing at the part I saw like ninety percent of it and there was. They did not. This guy did not bring up his bottle of supplement again. He did not know. The science claims weren't as crazy. There was still a whole lot of this guy. I looked too much internet. He he sucks like yeah. He's bad he's he's using all these words like are intentionally confusing people to try to make it sound like he's really smart and he does this other thing where this this is. This is gonNA sound like a stew play but it's really a real material complained to me. We never wears sleeves. And he's constantly putting. He's constantly putting his arm Audio formats you can't see but he's put posse puts his head his hand between behind his head to show off his biceps and kind of his armpits start like how like ripped because that's his entire credibility is like look at me. I'm beautiful beautiful by Golden. And that's his whole branch ability. He's not a doctor. He's not someone who who went to college for this. I think he was previously wasn't real estate. He was in real estate developer from La. Yeah and there's a dodgy stuff on his twitter which I scroll through way too much of Arturo his instagram and yeah he's just like it's pure facade I find him so incredibly beneath. Novak who I think as I've said all the stuff in the previous on off thirty minutes of the show have been going for now all this stuff that Novak really well earned his goodwill and credibility and I think giving this guy your platform or letting him you know take advantage of your platform is something that really should be thinking more about. Because they're just yeah other things just like an thinks that gets some of its harmless. Novak is taught. I don't know when this guy is talking about the health benefits of trampolines. Those are not likely to to hurt people. Actually I say that but Chanda Rubin did put up a funny tweet. This week anyone solve this made the connection but talk how she was drenched. Quarantine play with kids pulled a muscle on a trampoline and I was like aw go see dark trump. He'll everything I was wondering if she did it as sort of like wink. Wink to the current trampoline situation which I appreciate it but cannot confirm or deny so talked to check out that. Yeah it's just a mess and other things in there that he was saying taking the sort of pseudoscience further. Saying how you can you know. Make food more nutritious with the power of your mind and make their unhealthy water into healthy water. The power of your mind. It said that that's sort of my again. I think hopefully people will wanNA believe it or not who are talking to the Nola fan here like where they want to believe my objectively not through the first three minutes of this like I said all that so I could then rip into this which I do find really disappointing from Novak and I'm curious Katrina. You've put some of this on twitter but I'm curious what it's been like for you as this devoted very Novak thank credentials beyond dispute what it's been like for you seeing The stuff over the past couple of weeks from him from the vaccine to the to the sky stuff and so on. Yeah well I mean. I've I've known that nobody is into this stuff for for quite a few years it did really start with the the gluten gluten stuck Read his to book because it's about nutrition. I don't really want to take my nutrition advice from I mean I don't take tuition advice anyway I'm I'm a Vegan so I don't know I feel like I have my own little thing with that but I didn't to curly. I think I believe we IPAD discussions with his big he calls himself a a Demi Vegan. Which I'm sorry is not a thing. You're Vegan vegetarian or your four. So I've known that nobody has like into this off for a while and I think it's been a gradual progression from the gluten free stuff which he had some sort of Doctor Spitz chairman. Dr Who was like in his in his box. Who's on this old guy? I just love me. Dr Chapman reference points for the good work he like. I think I think how got in touch with that guy was the guy saw him I want to say the song. Notching two thousand Ken and he saw Novak being sick. He thought Oh Novak is not sick because of this. He's he's not playing well because he's He's he's gluten intolerance so then never got in touch with this guy and then that's how it became gluten free and he attributes his success to the Gluten Free Diet and I ask story by the way with that over. The story is where is in his book to win where the doctor hold. A piece of bread against Novak Skin starts to feel faint or can't hold up his arm anymore. Whatever and so like. This is not traditional allergy diagnosis. Put it that way. Yeah I mean I think you're the first one who told me about that and I was like my God doesn't sound very good so and I think Novak attributed his like to post two thousand eleven success to the Gluten Free Diet I would personally attribute it to the confidence boost that he got from Davis Cup Totally yeah that was where I thought that he really because I go ahead even twenty ten. Us Open and there was a big turning point. Turn for him he made he made. It was the first of the two years he saved match points to beat Roger Donaldson. He had like a rough first round match against Troy Sqi. I believe I'm recalling correctly and like yeah so there were there were signs anyway. People put but people. This is the thing in tennis when people when media are looking someone starts doing something way way better than they were before people want an explanation. Why yeah that's happened in two thousand twelve with Torius Aranka? Who started the year after being look at solid? Like getting into a top side dish player. She broke out in won the Australian Open and then one like Doha Dubai and the one Indian Wells on running Miami people. I need an explanation. Like okay. We to write stories. And tell people why this player who never won these titles like this before it's racking all titles and being world-beater and being number one and there was never really good explanation with as rank but with no that there were very tidy gluten free diet. Yep explanation that he he had people yeah and he kind of pushed that but like from my perspective as a fan because I was never really like onboard the whole like you know the transformer that transformative nature of Gluten. I was never really like on board with the idea that his success is due to the gluten free diet. I did think that it was because Davis Cup. And like the the kind of Romney had in the lead up to that now anyway so the the gluten-free kind of diet started him on this kind of wellness. I WANNA say use that word. So yeah yeah I mean if not exactly clear what how exactly you would classify what he's doing but wellness. Mindfulness that kind of thing. That's kind of what started it. And I know he's I think he's Kinda since then. Become more gradually interested in this kind of stuff Pepe Emmaus was like another figure that burge after doctors fishermen petty was a I don't even know how to describe him. I send it to a former tennis player which people don't really realize have it wasn't a top two hundred two player and he says. I think it's sort of anything. You probably probably be called a spiritual adviser who was again became a part of. Novak's team would come to some tournaments and stuff and he has the more. He paused eleven piece. Slogan t-shirts which Marco I think Marco still -ffiliated with us in some way But he has those things and he came along at a time in his career. Crew was sort of trending down. I think a lot of I don't know if you're among them. But a lot of fans have seen at least in my tweets about spend momentum. Novak contents mentioned a lot lately. We're saying like this. It's just like you know pepe imaz peppy must was being perfect his career and I I don't know whether he did anything is good or bad but Yeah he was somebody else who Novak sort of like put his his faith in this very sort of public way. And you know there's video that's out there you've seen. Novak leading a meditation and stuff and so it's like and again by that meditation like even if it can be a little bit cringing To see that to see that like that's also that's also harmless as much as as much as you know there's not anything else on the side of this organization. That's you know insensitive harmful cultish way like going off and doing meditation in Spain. Clear mind from the pressures of the world pressures of you stay in Seoul people being against you like that's all fine to me. There was such a big bridge relying cross again. That's more recent time with With this guy selling his golden mind supplements on Novak Channel. Novak endorsing these things and yeah I just if Ford to little to the President. What was your as you saw as you've seen this last month stuff. Novak where to start Well my I guess my first kind of reaction to saying that he would like like I like you. was not really watching the I don't really watch like the instagram live one benches. It's not of my time zone so I'd have to wake up at like five. Am and just not to do that. Like especially watch it back. I think I watched like most of the Anthony. Murray one back and that was kind of interesting. I actually really liked that. Even though I found no God's answers to be very long and Kinda world yes yes goes lancers. Yeah and I mean like I found that to be a bit and I think there was like something that highlighted the kind of difference between like Andy Novak when was like what was the first thing that you do in the morning and Novak is like well I stay gratitude and I think I don't know some some bullshit and then Andy was like well. I get up when I go. I go pay to highlight the difference between the two You you could already see like this. Like Novak is maybe moving more towards like making this public. I mean He. He kind of like a lot of his tweets kind of Already kind of sounding like this like what? I kind of like Wou- spiritual nece or wellness when Paul tro kind of stuff A lot of it was kind of like like that which I mostly ignored It's just not really my thing And then when he had this guy on I it was not my thing and then so I didn't watch it but I watched some of the highlights and like an immediately you can tell this is schilling something to the extent of. Which like Does this guy like. Believe his own hype. Does he buy until this kind of stuff. I don't know I mean I don't know no I really. I really do not know what this guy. Because he's a salesman and so to think that that's kind of charitable now to plot him but what you know in snake. Oil Salesman is more traditional. Sort of thing. I mean like there's different things to get briefly sidetracked into him like I was looking at reviews on Amazon and lying. I saw at least one thing from a person who said I tried leaving a negative review on this guy's website but he didn't approve it or something and just like there's there's other there's and people should know this stuff and again this goes to Questions about responsibility for this is it you know people are quote unquote gullible or dumb. Charitably enough or vulnerable and offer subtle enough to these sort of preachings. And they don't go out and spend hundred dollars on you know this guy's potions which they think will improve their lives and get them better and prevent Parkinson's or whatever else is holding a whole bunch of different stuff. He's saying nothing particularly that. This approach to that but just different. It's all part of his sort of talking points that he may get what they're coming off and they're also is You know a deck stacked against him by his his deceitful present just seems to be in terms of reviews and stuff and blocking people are gleaning comments center questioning or critical anything of him and then all that is fine and then for no guy to give him this like very very very advantageous platform. Where Novak is saying? Hey I'm this great guy on this incredible success story. I'm a world class athlete. I am on track to be go like you said from pure numbers standpoint very possibly and I believe in this guy and this is who I trust like. That's incredibly powerful. Coming FROM NOVAK. That kind of endorsement that has meant the world to to this guy's career in his suits brand and my there is a sort of. I saved in story collection on his instant pages all like his interactions with Novak like Novak is calling card and Novak. That's what's GonNa make him into success in this guy's so aware of that and he so clearly latching onto that in a way that makes me like really feel bad for another because I don't I don't think that Novak Novak I assume is not making money off of the sales of Golden Mind. I assume he's not get paid to endorse Pay By him did make appearances. I think that could just kind of getting taken for a ride by this guy is my is my outside assessment and that makes me very disappointed. Four Novak that happening to him and very disappointed in Novak. This is happening that he's letting this happen and I just. Yeah that's that's where my that's where my my verdict in the end of this and that's all really trying to say you know. I was disappointed again when after there were that's why I did through hackles alarms about it after the after the first one I saw did as well a couple of people again lot of journalists. Were quiet not going to burn the Novak Bridge. Whatever but I did get Mary. Carillo notable attention cannot very forcefully against this stuff and I think a lot of messages privately from other people who work on tour and various capacities being like you know keep it up like this is not like it's good that you're calling this out not a lot of other. I think maybe a couple people wrote newspaper stories about it. An embedded video clipped. But I mean that's sort of my take is just like it makes me sad. It makes me sad that Novak who now again I have so much admiration for in the first two thirds of the show is sort of making this his and doubling down on this and it was something. Oh it was the Hillary Clinton documentary or something and they were talking about how. It was sort of a cliche at the end. Who would documentary? They were saying how like in the end like her greatest strength which was like I think they were saying her severed. I'm not sure they said aggression. Whatever it was meant to be like her strength is also her weakness and I think Djokovic that's kind of becoming the case as well where like his stubbornness and his independence and everything is now. We're seeing the downside of that. We're seeing him like double down on something that he should not be. And and you know and there's all sorts of cultural things that go into it. I've heard you know I've gotten lots of message from people. Not Expert on this. And what like? Balkan attitude towards Western medicine are healers or schism that come from that part of the world about doctors and things that are Aldridge Insurance backstories. I can't pretend to know all of and there is also no. I think a lot of people pointed out that his wife Yelena has also posted things on social media that are similarly sort of conspiracy theories she put something about. You know five something. That actually got like flagged instagram. I'd never seen this. Before and a post they got flagged instagram's being like this is like misleading information. Click at your own risk post. Yes there's some context to it but yeah it's just it's just disappointing to me in the end. Yeah and I'm going to like like I mean one of the things that I think I've always really liked about. Novak is that he's always been very interested in learning and I mean he's spoken about his desire to go back to uni and how you kind of felt like he really wanted to finish high school or having the proper kind of high school education and if he I think he's mentioned that he felt like he missed out on that sense so what I've always liked is he was really interested in learning. And it's just such a shame to see him into this. You know there are so many better things that he could be using his time in quarantine like while we're all under quarantine he could be using a platform for so many better things you know like a laborer on the ATP like starting a union that kind of thing that that is really interesting to me. And I would really like to see him uses platform in that way but to see him use for this guy. It's really disappointing. You know and it's really. It's that kind of thing like you don't really know. Like how can I? How can I even approach Novak in this way? I mean I don't feel like there's a whole lot that anyone as a fan or as a journalist I don't know I don't know how you reach someone who is so bought in the I did send him a message of just. GonNa follow each other on twitter at center the message and DMZ like. Hey you know just to stay basically things that I've said here about what I want to hear about. At least not as much as we have had been colleagues for ten years. We're not we're super close or anything. But you know I just do want him to sort of articulate. My misgivings about this. In a way. That's different that might might tweets which come off obviously probably more aggressive than he wants to respond to but Yeah but you were saying on twitter like you would be supportive of Guinness. I think really showed me how much you were effectiveness. But you be supportive like his sponsors pulling back from him over this. They're saying some SORTA message that way whether it's his Lacoste in Essex and head and Saco maybe yeah. Yeah yeah and I mean like like my tweet was kind of saying like this is very crude way to deal with it and obviously it's a very bad precedent but I'm willing to you know go against my own kind of like for like moral and ethical perspective in this case and just say. Look if you're on the cost. Your logo is appearing beside this guy who is talking about changing water with the power of your mind. And you know really. I mean extent to which the stuff is dangerous. I don't know I mean I don't know if there's direct like if you can really say like someone watches Novak and then they believe that water polluted water can be cleansed. I don't know there's like a direct causative link you just don't know and this goes back to. There's a lot of like this is what this is especially harmful in this moment in human history is because of all the sort of health fears and concerns and confusion. That is out there right now. Like there were you know when like when Donald Trump is talking about How people could inject disinfectants or something into their bodies into their lungs to clear out the virus like all the companies are very quick messages. Being like no. Do not do this with our products. We do not want you to drink bleach. Or whatever he or whatever spray Wa Inhale Lysol or whatever he was saying those are do not do these things and so there is people who have power and influence through that power and influence and success in other has a ton of success and has influenced and power from that have credibility whether earned or not on all sorts of things and are influencers to use this of grow social media term. But they really are influencers because they do influence people. That's the reason why like as much as I roll my eyes at the whole concept of influence there. It's like they are success. Because people have learned and have proven that their endorsements work and matter. And I'm sure that this guy sold a lot of data on this but I'm sure this guy would have sold at least checking out golden that day be like Novak. Says he uses this. This guy likes it all seemed really interesting to me. There's a lot of scientists in totally understand. But they really knew they're talking about let me go get some. This can improve my life and get some gold mine. The navy a lot of them guessing probably did go looking at Balk at the Price Tag. I hope it happened but Yeah I mean that's that's really comes from because nobody is influential on his last On on the most recent live he did before he kind of but before it where he was like. You know this is just my opinion. I'm not trying to preach you know sharing some interesting ideas or whatever And that would be fine again. It was a less concrete. They they're talking about and there was again. There was not the overt sales pitch on this most recent one of the I don't. I don't believe there was over product placement. At least maybe they put it on pause for now and Novak. I'm sure no that can and this guy I think have the backlash to his to their videos. They're getting online and pretty sure but You Know Yeah. There's a yeah. There's a responsibility that comes with this end. The same reason why Lacoste for example or any sponsor like pays Novak To wear their clothes because he's a positive association. Lukasz thinks that by having Novak were their stuff that it will make more valuable because eras winning in it or he looks good in or he'd like what he stands for so on like. That's all clear that's why he's an influx why he has power so the same. Novak has to be there for careful. Yeah Kenneth Associated with things like this like his Bush league in bad. It's it's just it's just so it's so it's so beneath all the things that I feel like he. He should be the same thing happened. I remember in in a conversation with not conversation and reporting the happened with Genie Bouchard which This is reported on the Times Years ago. A couple of years ago but she split with an agent in part because the agent was upset that she was like doing like supplement paid posts on her instagram. Yes I think it's. That's pay post for something instagram. That he thought was like way below the kind of sponsorships. You should be doing like he just thought it was devaluing her as a influence or at he's word again and yeah. I just think I think this does hurt. Novak's credibility when he doesn't it tarnishes his his persona. I wish it wasn't because I do think that he's a very very successful important guy for the sport whether he's popular or not. He still influential to a whole lot of people. And Yeah. It's it's all frustrating. Yeah I mean like if you're you're Novak's I mean I know Novak's agent but if you're like bright like brand manager aren't you don't you have a certain level responsibility to say like? Hey you might believe in this stuff in eighth. Might find this dog very helpful but it goes against modern science and the climate right. Now you know in the right side of history is not really going against science and not to be throwing out all this you know frankly bullshit you know and and to be associated with these kinds of like figures to God. I mean like the thing. The thing about this guy is is. He's fundamentally not that remarkable. You know what he's saying is pretty strange and frankly stupid. But he's not like some sort of like unique thinker and he doesn't even injury that popular within this kind of like wellness Internet like instagram sphere. He doesn't have that many followers compared to you can find many many people and I'm not even sure solid account was before he Joke of platform. Yeah the bet. Like forty eight thousand followers in this kind of like wellness Like wellness arena is not actually that many you know and you know to me to be lifting up a guy like that. I mean God. They're better conspiracy theories for you to be getting in on like their Bene- scammers. I coordinate with us on twitter. I sort of agree that like I have family from New Jersey. My my grandfather was a judge in in Jersey City which is all sort of like frequently has sort of like tentacles of organized crime in various shapes inform and so like I feel like I have in some ways like a respect begrudging respect for certain elements like scammers organized crime or whatever people who pull things off and again this goes to our you know our Darko. Certain things with Darko where he pulled something off and I was like actually props you that you were able to get this that you really talk you into the BBC. You can gain respect the game right but this guy. I'm just I'm just not impressed. And the his only real victory is getting Novak in anyways. Frustrating occurs just from your own sort of speaking out or divergent. Are you when you're dealing with being part of fandom find yourself in that? Phantom starts dividing or start seeing clearly some of them are going places that you because a lot of them issue very clear are very adamant Defending Novak through all this and attacking me. I mean like I'll just read the most recent tweet I got which is Before we start recording which I jotted down because I thought it was useful to talk with the tone This Guy Damange rece- Tich says You are also a classic example of Moron of retarded Nazi Satan. This nation most likely you're also a pedophile at responding to me twenty. Something about Novak whatever. I don't know what tweeted was but I think that he escalated discourse in the words he used so I mean that's like the kind of stuff I'm seeing but like for you like being a center and it's not just you I've been heartened to see lots of people. Who Are you? Know Novak fans in a very boil diehard sense whether see whether it's Her name is on twitter and a tennis fan from Israel. Who has fan I know? Well jared pines like an American Novak Fan from California somewhere I believe. And he also saying and he's kind of going back and forth saying like well not clear. Rumba. Ben Still went to anybody else like okay. Whatever and then like an on a metric just talked about her own like manning's and stuff with Novak are with this whole being stressed. Essentially by her pulling loyalties here and I'm just curious for you what it's like for you to sort of if it's easy or if it's if it's tough to have to To BE SPLITTING FROM THE PACK. I do think also should say the example. I got extreme one but I do think the people who are not fans who are doubling down on this part are I think and I hope our my are allowed minority. I don't this isn't most Novak fans and that's the thing it's just the classic sort of usual suspects in twitter. Who are the most aggressive in the most belligerent boasts and honestly they're the ones who worry me in this context because if they really will fight for anything Novak says and does that really shows influence a lot of ways to like? If there's like if this is not a bridge too far what would be you know so yeah I'm curious. I'm curious what it's been like for you finding yourself at. Maybe a bit of a crossroads being disliked within my own. Fandom is not a new experience for me. I'll say that up front but it is like disheartening. To See so many people just blindly supporting Novak no matter what and like I don't know if they buy into this or if they're more taking the the freedom of speech argument where they feel like they should defend Novak's to air his dues or whatever. I don't know if they're actually buying into it but to the extent that they are. You're not you're not doing him a favor by doing that You know like my perspective. Fandom is always that you should be. You should want the best for your player or the person who you're supporting and what I think is the best for back is to not be posting this stuff. So you're not doing him a favor to be blindly supporting every move that he makes you know. And it is disheartening to see so many people just being like attacking you or attacking other fans. Who are descending on this kind of stuff. Not That I. I haven't personally seen that but I've seen people who are like kind of taking the same viewpoints may who are saying like. Yeah I've had received hateful messages from other fans like other Novak fans who are telling me that I'm not a fan or failing loyalty tests in a moment. Yeah Yeah you're not doing Novak savers to build up this kind of like you know reservoir up like like little army to go out and defend everything he does because like God. He's wrong you know that he's wrong. Come on part of like part of what this what I think. The people supporting her doing is like the nachos signaling their support for Novak to Novak. But because it's a very public platform also seek signaling your support to other fans so this kind of like a bit of like Like social capital building. I guess within Vandam. Gosh now this is something that we see so much in society constantly. I mean like not to make another trump comparison but it goes for anything with a lot of politicians. Everything is so polarized right now. Everybody is so in their own camp. That whether it's you know Donald Trump on one side of the political or you know he's even the furthest right person but over the furthest right person is versus you know Bernie and other side like people when they when they when they get on a team. They're very very loyal to that team. And you know they're not and so they see is sort of competition at the scoreboard thing and they can you know. I'm not saying that those are obvious. I'm not trying to make those equal people saying that. You know you can get there can be a pack mentality that can be people again. This is sort of wanting twitter towards complement towards you. That I really do have a lot of respect for you for being for staying you know. And this is gonNA sound patronizing but for staying independent thinker because it's obviously Harder to object to this stuff publicly than it should be. You know it's not like it's it should be easy to be somebody sticking up and saying. Hey this is not okay. This has gone too far. But we just see so so little of that in in politics in the world in fandom certainly right now so to say Kudos to you and other other fans people who are fans Novak and by all means continue being a fan of Novak the tennis player and you know that can be an you know going forward. I'm guessing this is not made you stop being a no. That's how I know I I. It's tough to even think there's no tennis right now. So like him. Being attended hundreds abstract in a way. But what do you think this will mean for your for your Phantom going forward. Yeah I mean I don't intend to stop being Novak Fan but it does. It definitely does make you more cautious about like promoting this person to other people because you know if they ask you like well what do you think about as XXV fusing like well? You know. I can't say that you're I think you're a smart person or I think that you are? You know like You know one of the more thoughtful players on tour when this is like the opinions that you're taking it makes it hard to hard to make a case for Novak to other people but this is not another through a concept that I think is also important in modern society. Is this idea of like being. It's okay to have a quote unquote problematic fave. How like it's Oh it's again. This goes to politics and stuff to like everything about these purity tests these days and I do think it is okay for there to be a person whether it's politics whether it's you know pop culture whether it's whatever you know whether it's you know all with people who people think of as being totally untouchable like beyond say or something like you know like for you to recognize. Hey I really really like this person and stand this person you know to use the as the kids say. I'm trying that we're myself but it's a you know and still think. Hey but you know I really. I did not what they did on. You know even basic level. I don't like this one song of hers. I don't like and beyond states album of hers or I thought that out of the met gala was silly or I wish she didn't you know I don't know you know. Not The inter arisen but like not give interviews or like put up a Jay Z or whatever. So there's you know you know. One is infallible. And the faster that you recognize that about people. Even your faves. I think is really useful and it's just Kevin Nuance in a nothing is black and white in the world at all and and there are people who you know obviously people who exploit that like this guy and tried like thrive on the confusion. But there's also this fans you should be able to realize like hey like just because I have a crocodile in my username on twitter. Just because I do this this and this and does not mean that like. I shouldn't still be a critically thinking human being that I shouldn't still be in charge of my own mind and in charge of my own thoughts and you know and maybe people are going to say like. Oh this is all know back saying because you're saying keep open minded or whatever and like yes. He is but at the same time there are you really. There is a very black and white answer to can you change water. Molecules with your mind and the answer is a hard no honey. Yeah so yes. It's balanced there. But I think I think it was the two of US I think real estate pager. Yeah exactly and I mean like. I'm thankful that I'm able to be able to separate this. This kind of stuff on the people who are I interact with on twitter or able to separate this stuff but I would also say and this is kind of aside. Point is there are kind of like a lot of other phantoms. Like who are kind of watching this in getting involved in IT Like say the Federal Phantom who are kind of like watching it and dissenting it and this is kind of what fandom does the kind of watching it and they're criticizing it but they also kind of love it because they love to see. Novak engage in this kind of like public humiliation being brought down. Yeah Yeah I mean like as much as they'll look kind of like virtue signal about like. Oh this is so So harmful and think about the people who take who is taken for a ride and Novak familiar responsible for doing this. They also like locate. Enjoy it because Novak is destroying his credibility in a very public way. So the kind of like. Yeah keep going so that you know there's also that angle to it as well but like From perspective I'm not GonNa stop being a fan but it's also like this is a side of him that I don't like yeah. No totally know people people. You're so right about that. Sort of people cheering his downfall and again not everything out to politics but all the time. Obviously when somebody rival politician you know the party. You don't like it's caught with you know you know. Eighteen you know hookers in hotel room like dance cheer. This is not a good thing by means. But you're sort of just happy to see you know your rivals or your your opposites are who you've you're it's in your life whenever take you know. Get them get brought down so yeah. So it's there's a lot of out of negative energy and some shirts doing ugly things to the water around us but you know as as one as one person is one trillion breath on twitter. Novak shouldn't believe this up about the water you know being changed by motions because if that was the case everything played Roger Wimbledon the crowd with tournament to a pile of sludge and sort goes full circle. Which is again why. I Admire Novak that he has been so resilient and strong and tough through a lot of negative energy sent his way. But this this just seemed like a real a real escalation in a real sort of problem for him to be opted like this and the so it's been it's been occupied my mind for bust eight days or so Actually like Kinda tuned in intentionally to this. Today's talk with this guy to see what it was going to be about Arab didn't contain and Yeah I just don't have to be like I want to be able to trust. Now that he can make good choices for himself on social media and right now At someone who is a very influential influential successful voice in the sport I cover I'm hoping he yeah. I'm hoping that he finds ways. Depart himself with us into separate himself from this. Yeah in a in a in a meaningful definite if graceful or not just in a in a in a clear way so anyway Katrina. Thank you very much for talking here. Any other any other last points Before a rep is up. Now I mean thank you me on I think it's good to get this like these kinds of perspective out. There says clearly. You know it's dividing a lot of people know definitely and and this is the time again like I have very little appetite in the world right now for. I think the world has shown this to for Allison Roman controversy. Showed this very clearly. I don't know if you're following that one but I mean people myself included have very little appetite from meanness or cruelty in this. We're all living together or bullying at the same time but this again is crossing a crossing the line where it becomes dangerous people. Again this time of vulnerability and confusion and everything. So yes so. That's why I want to bring it up. Thank you Katrina. Follow you at returned winner on twitter search for the handle this. It's always tough finding because you always have emoji against search that I can remember which Emoji it is on a given day so it's it's your little elusive but thank you for being found and discovered and sharing with us here your perspective really appreciate it no problem so thank you so much to Katrina for being on the show and thank you for listening to this episode of no challenges remaining if you WANNA follow Katrina first of all you should at return winner is her handle. Npr is on twitter at NC are underscore tennis up. Berg Courtney's there at forty days to reach us with your questions. Thomas thoughts whatever on email no challenges remaining at Djamil Dot Com to do that we are also unpatriotic and we want to thank our wonderful patrons on Patriot for helping us out so much during these times especially when our normal jobs have ceased. We really do appreciate you guys and your generosity in your continuing support of our little show special shoutout to our new patriots backers since our last episode. Who are Rachel Perry Rachel Perez one since less episodes? Make your much Rachel for joining on really appreciate want follow along. We do do occasional Patriot only content. Were probably doing some more at some point soon. Corden I look forward to that. We also still are going to do the Nc Our vision results show. That is coming soon. Probably Riposte and CR vision the show itself to get you guys refreshed on that or my favorite episodes ever celebrating tennis music. The Eurovision Song contest would have been held. 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