The Atlantic: Police Fail To Catch Sexual Predators Because They Don't Believe Victims
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I'm Meghna Chakravarty Freddie and this is on point a subterranean river of chauvinism that is what a special investigation in the Atlantic points to as one of the reasons why rape may be one of the easiest crimes to get away with thousands of untested rape kits detectives closing cases because they just don't believe the victims or they say the victims should have taken better care of themselves serial rapists who walk free because of those law enforcement decisions however some cities are trying to change that they're testing the backlog clog rape kits revealing the patterns of sexual predators and challenging the culture of disbelief. How are they doing it and we'll more jurisdictions? Follow this hour on point. Why police don't catch serial rapists and you can join us have of how has the backlog of Rape Kit had an impact on your life? Are you a victim of Sexual Predator and waiting for justice and if you're in law enforcement how our police officers and prosecutors he's handling what the Atlantic calls this subterranean river of chauvinism. That's preventing perhaps justice being served in many cases of rape and sexual assault join US anytime on point radio DOT ORG or twitter and facebook facebook at one point radio joining us today from Washington is Barbara Bradley Haggerty. She's a contributing writer for the Atlantic. She's been a year investigating the national backlog of untested rape kits as well as the implications of that backlog. We have an excerpt of her article in the Atlantic that is linked to on point radio DOT ORG and of course for longtime N._p._R.. Listeners Barbara's voice will be very familiar because she was a correspondent for N._p._R.. For nearly two decades so Barbara Bradley Haggerty it is a great pleasure to welcome you to on point welcome to the show great and so great to be here. Thank you make no. I having one of those. I'm just a huge fan of yours as well having N._P._R.. For so long so back out but let's get let's get right to this incredible investigation <hes> that she published here in the Atlantic and I'd actually like to start with a story <hes> and it's one that you tell early in the peace about serial rapists called Eric Eugene Wilkes <hes> and how he was known in Detroit police for other crimes but how somehow for years he got away with multiple sexual assaults. Can you tell us about him sure sure so he was known for carjacking in Detroit and robbery and other kind of minor crimes they didn't the police didn't really think that he was a rapist. I didn't have any idea that he was rapist but on December twenty six of two thousand he raped a woman who was waiting for a bus and the police. She got her eighth exam. They gotTa Rape Kit. The police did not send the rape kit into the lab. They just shoved it and so few four months later Eric Wilkes raped another woman three days later he raped another woman. Those rape kits just went into storage in a warehouse in in Detroit he raped again and again and again over the next eleven years and please just kept putting those kits not knowing that they held in their hands it the biological fingerprint of a serial rapist they just put those boxes in the shelf on on the shelf <hes> finally after his eleventh victim he was identified by her. They arrested him and then years later when they tested all of those. Let's get this eleven thousand three hundred forty one rape kits that were put in storage and Detroit when they began testing them. They found that his D._N._A. matched eleven people so it was kind of a cautionary tale I mean the Detroit warehouse which was really decrepit warehouse where the windows broken and birds were flying around this became a symbol of neglect and how police really didn't take seriously women's allegations of rape so in the Wilkes case eleven years eleven violent rapes and the implication location being that if that I rape kit had been tested that potentially ten other women would have pop possibly been spared <hes> yeah yeah that is really one of the big through lines. I mean one of the tragic things about this these this moment the moment that women the time that women are raped his literally the worst moment of their lives right imagine if police had taken that first victim seriously or even the second victim seriously tested the kit did did a thorough investigation caught that rapist that would have saved nine ten you know eight some amount number of women the worst moments of their lives it would have spared them and this is happening across the country that a lot of rapists are serial rapists use a surprising number and so if police would take them seriously the women seriously at the beginning a lot of women's lives would not be changed in terrible way for the rest of their lives so definitely want to talk to you in detail about what you've uncovered about attitudes attitudes and law enforcement but but let's stay with this <hes> this <hes> notion of what the testing of these rape kits finally is beginning to reveal. I mean how many of these crimes are being perpetrated by serial rapists well. It's it's it's really very interesting. <hes> cleveland has been kind of a city on the hill and they've actually <hes> given all of the information about their seven thousand untested rape kits now tested <hes> to case Western Reserve Nerve University so they've been able the researcher terrapin able to look and see gosh. Let's look at this information. Oh my goodness one out of five of these rape kits paying to a serial rapist. I've seen higher figures like in in Detroit Loyd. I've seen it's like thirty eight percent a ping to serial rapists so what that means there are a lot. There are a lot more serial rapists out there than anyone would suspect I think in in Cleveland they have they have realized that they have had at some one point four hundred serial rapists in mid mid sized town. Can you imagine what it would be like. A New Yorker Los Angeles so it's really a pretty stunning statistic. It's a it's a pretty scary statistic but there's hoping it if people take police take it seriously really they will be able to stop these rapists and and spare a lot of women slot so as you right in your article in the Atlantic that this scandal about untested rape kits which has been going hang on for for several years I mean hundreds of thousands of rape kits not tested across the country that it's one of the most visible aspects of the deeper problem of law enforcement just not believing women but <hes> <hes> but tell me I mean I think it's still may come as a surprise or a shock to people that rape kits just aren't automatically tested as soon as soon as their collected. I mean what is the process there who makes the decision about whether shelve it or not well it appears it appears I mean I'm sure it varies from city to city and state to state but it appears that it's pretty much a police decision whether to send that into the lab or not and some cities have really gotten series about it the federal government it's now offering money millions of dollars <hes> two cities and states to go ahead and send in their kids to the lab so that they will be tested but it it seems to be according to the researchers I talked to more of a police issue than certainly a prosecutor issue issue and so at somewhere along the line someone decides not to send these kits in and and you know I wanNa talk a little bit. If I may have out <hes> would the surprising thing about this. I mean we've known about these untested had rape kits for a little while. It's been scandal for a while but the question I wanted to get at is why I mean. This is a great piece of evidence right the D._N._A.. The biological fingerprint of perpetrator may easily be in that rape kit. You could no the name of the guy so why aren't you testing it and you alluded to this in your intro. <hes> which is there is this kind of reflexive reflexive disbelief of women and what what I found in researchers found his at if a so-called righteous victim comes to the police that is if a woman who was raped by stranger who fought back you know who is clean of drugs or alcohol if so-called righteous victim came to the police they would be very excited about pursuing that case only one out of five women is raped by a stranger so that cuts out you know sixty or eighty percent of the cases right there but if the victim Tim nosy assailant if it's a so called acquaintance rape then the case was often closed pretty quickly so police talked about detectives talked about party rapes where the victim was drinking and taking taking drugs or whatever and she was with the perpetrator and she quote got what she got they talked about buyer's remorse where women woke up and kind of regretted the sex they talked about revenge Rafe where you know this is often used in case of prostitutes where they were mad about non payment so these this was kind of skeptical language that we saw in police reports and sometimes you alluded to this sometimes please thought detected salt that the victims just made it up and you you mentioned this a fourteen year old girl. There was a fourteen year old girl in Detroit reported. The two men dragged her into an abandoned house and raped her and this is what the report the police report says this Heffer is tripping. She was clean and smelling good. Dude ain't no way that blank happened like she said the Jig was up. She didn't WanNa talk no more Sir Mama took her to the hospital and they got the blank out of here. It was a two page reported. It ends this way. This case is closed you T. E. E. C. unable to establish the elements of the crime. Now that is written into a police report. That's in a police report a two page report. They weren't able to establish the elements the crime and the part that really just stopped me when I read that repeatedly was the <hes> this heifers trip in great unquote and that and that the that because she because this is young girl was clean and smelling good that it wasn't possible for crime to have been committed against her. That's what seems like the law enforcement officer was asserting right and you know what we have to understand. I mean what we have to understand is that most straits don't happen to you know suburban women <hes> picking up their kid waiting waiting the Carpool you know or driving the Carpool waiting for their kids to come from school or or even walking home from the metro station. Most most rapes rapes happen to vulnerable people in poorer areas in poorer neighborhoods <hes> people who are just less advantaged and so the police tend to look at look at the much more skeptically and they tend to ascribe you know they tend to look the victim and judge the victim decide whether it's worthy of pursuing a case they don't look at the act itself. I mean I'm making blanket statements here. There are a lot of great detectives out there okay and you're gonNA talk to repel. WHO's a terrific prosecutors? There are a lot of great people out there but often what they do say judge the victim by her appearance or her says economic standing and then they decide whether or not the rape cases worthy to be pursued well Barbara as he said in a little while we will talk to chief Rick Bell from Cleveland Ohio about the really the different take. They're taking in Cleveland City on a hill as you call it regarding this issue so we will do that but we are talking this hour with Barbara Bradley Haggerty. She's a contributing writer at the Atlantic and she's has written a year long investigation into why law enforcement has difficulty catching serial rapists. We'll be back. This is on point. This podcast and following message are sponsored by Xfinity. Some things are hard to control like over caffeinated co workers other things are easy to control like you're in Home Wifi with Xfinity X.. Fi set wi fi curfew change your password and create user profiles all with the X. Fi APP and other reason why xfinity is simple easy easy awesome go online call one eight hundred xfinity or visit a store to learn more restrictions apply in the trump era. The news moves faster than Nippy. Our politics podcast is there to keep you informed every time there's a major political story. We are best correspondence together to sort through the noise the N._p._R.. Politics podcast what you need to know right after it happens. This is on point. I magnin Chakrabarti. We're talking this hour about why police don't catch serial rapists and the cities that are working hard to change that and this discussion is based on a terrific year long investigation that has been recently published in the Atlantic it was done by Barbara Bradley Haggerty. She's a contributing writer to the Atlantic and we have linked to her article at on Point Radio Dot Org and before the break Barbara was talking about this attitude amongst many some members of law enforcement about quote unquote righteous victims victims are and how perhaps they're the ones worthy of further investigation and even charges or seeking of justice when they have been attacked by Sexual Predator on that point. I just WANNA play a little bit of tape because here's Kim worthy worthy. She is the prosecutor in Wayne County Michigan and in two thousand nine a member of her office discovered more than eleven thousand untested rape kits in a warehouse a Barbara had mentioned that before it was a really big moment in Detroit and so here's prosecutor persecutor worthy talking about the reasons that so many rape cases in Detroit had gone on solved there was perpetual victim blaming when the these victims came to report their crimes. That's the rape culture and because of this victim blaming of someone that had been violently assaulted. Some of these victims were even ridiculed into not continue to perceive their case. That's Kim Worthy Prosecutor in Wayne County Michigan now out Barbara. I your your reporting filled with so many examples I would love to hear another one about this issue of victim blaming <hes> you sat down with Amber Mansfield and believe it. She's in Minnesota's outright. That's right. That's right. I did Anchorman Chee. We <hes> amber. This was a really really interesting case. Amber was <hes> in let's see I guess it was twenty. Fourteen Twenty fifteen excuse me Amber Mansfield started hanging out with the childhood friend Keith Washington <hes> in he had just been released in May of two thousand fifteen from prison. He told her it was for he was in prison for assaulting a police officer. It turned out he was actually in there for violent rape but one day in July of Twenty Fifteenth <hes> Twenty fifteen he kind of went on a rampage. He got irate. He choked her until she passed out and when she came to a couple of hours later. He raped her okay so she goes to the police. She gets rape kit. She goes to the police in the police. Look at her very very skeptically and here's why Ambert had a checkered past. She was raised in foster homes. <hes> she had a misdemeanor prostitution prostitution charge when she was in her early twenties <hes> but now she was in her late thirties she had completely cleaned up. She moved out of Minneapolis to a little town. She had a daughter at this point she was the daughter was five years old. You know an S._U._V. House she was she was doing well. She's doing really well so she goes to the police. She tells him about this. It's in the police. Just look at her. Skeptically she figured that they would look at both her past record and heath Washington's pass record and she was half right. They looked at her record. They didn't bother to look at his record and what was incredible. was that <hes> they they dredged up this fourteen year old case of misdemeanor prostitution charge and decided that you know she just was a prostitute and that they weren't going to do anything about it and she said the I talked to the the detective there the head of the sex crimes unit WHO's now retired. His name is Mike Cerro and he basically said look you know if you're not gonNA take care of yourself. Why should I I looked at her past and I had to hell with this? We're not going to do anything about this. I'M NOT GONNA waste my time with this. You can hear Barbara because I have the quote from him in your piece directly in front of me. I think it's worth reading and it's an entire first of all. I'm impressed that he sat down with you. Because clearly I mean he's retired now but he you mentioned little league a he's a dedicated law enforcement officer. He was very frustrated every time a perpetrators slip through right through slip through the cracks. He wants to catch criminals but at the same time he told here's what he told you he said after looked if he's after saw Mansfield background check he said quote. I'm thinking whoa wait a second here. How much resources am I going to spend if you're that how should I say careless with your own self? We're not gonNA spend any time on this. I mean oh I know I was a little surprised he said that to me as well and but you know you get when they have this many cases they do <hes> they just start to kind of triage and so they just thought well. We're not GONNA bother with this case and so what happened Ah I mean let me just mentioned that if he or anyone else had spent twenty minutes typing in Keith Washington's name into the system the national or or statewide database they would have found that he was a level three sex offender that is the most violent and most likely to offense. They didn't look at that. They didn't find that out and so what happened. Inevitably is a few months later heath Washington <hes> accosted two women within the space of a couple of hours <hes> left them unconscious and partially only partially dressed and they picked him up those it's Amber Mansfield view that <hes> those assaults didn't need to happen but because they didn't believe her because they didn't bother to check on his his background. A serial rapist was allowed to go free well. Let's go to the calls Barbara if we may because there are a lot of them. Katryn is calling from Somerville Massachusetts Katryn. You're on the Air Hi hi thanks for taking my call <hes> so I read the article yesterday and <hes> it was really struck by a lot of the details but I think the thing that struck me the most was that one in five up here to be serial rapists <hes> and I was is rates in two thousand five in New York City and experience really fits the story quite well. <hes> the cops told my boyfriend when I went to the hospital to get the reeks hit on that sometimes girlfriends lie because they don't want to be found to have cheated. The doctor in the emergency department was annoyed and said he didn't WanNa do another rape kit <hes> and then the D._A.. said that they weren't going to prosecute because there wasn't enough evidence than when I spoke with a lawyer he said unfortunately rape is essentially legal in this country <hes> and yeah and so so that's that just kind of reconfirms what you're talking about <hes> but reading article actually made me want to investigate whether my rape kit was tested <hes> because even though it's probably pass the statute of limitations for any kind of prosecution what I'm curious about is <hes> the story is very detailed memorable into but I get the feeling from this guy the he has done this before and he's a quite powerful individual in New York City <hes> and I wonder if there were other d._n._A.. Kits would they reveal that. He's also a serial rapist probably well. That is a fascinating. I'm so sorry about about that is it's. I'm sure it was worst moment. Moments of your life <hes> you in New York City actually has been pretty good about <hes> testing. It's backlog they had seventeen thousand kits run tested and they went ahead and started testing them. I think they've tested all of them. I would bet you anything that that if you inquired you could find out whether whether you're assailant has also assaulted other people I would bet that you anything because I think they've tested virtually all of those kits and Barbara such as good a cyber. How would you go about making that inquiry? I mean I would call the sex crimes unit in the New York Police New York Police Department and I would start there and just tell them you're story and I think they'd be able to to find that out. <hes> at least tell you how you could find it out. That's what I would do. Okay well Katryn. Thank you so much for your call now Barbara in in a moment here I'm going to I am going to turn to turn chief Rick Bell from Cleveland Ohio but can you I tell us there are certain jurisdictions Cleveland being amongst and perhaps chief amongst them that have tried really hard to deal with this problem not just of the rape kit backlog but of unearthing the information that all those kids could <hes> could reveal so what is it that that Cleveland Cuyahoga County have done that so remarkably different well they they really are the great rate example of how you handle this well because not only have they gone ahead. They had the wheel to test kits but they also then once it got the results began to investigate very very quickly indict people and they have by far than most number of people <hes> perpetrators who've been indicted convicted and there are mid sized city so they had the wheel to do this but let me tell you this other thing they did. That is is so helpful they gave all the information as I mentioned a Case Western Reserve University and they the case Western was able to do was begin to see the patterns the unexpected patterns of of rapists and they've found several things one is there are a lot more serial rapists <hes> than than you would ever ever think but they also found in this was extremely interesting for law enforcement. They also found that people who raped strangers often rape acquaintances as well so as long thought that okay you know if an acquaintance rape we don't need to test that kit because we know who the alleged suspect who the suspect is right so no no reason to send that kit into the lab but what Cleveland found is that when they sent all of their kids to the lab they found that these acquaintance rapes were the the D._N._A.. From the acquaintance rates were paying into stranger rapes so suddenly they were solving rapes cold cases where they had no suspects. Suddenly they had a name an identification of that stranger rape and so so it's really kind of interesting. There's so much that can be done with this D._N._A.. Information and Cleveland is really leading the way in in what should be done right. I mean we should know that their their efforts have been quite extensive. Offensive Right A- As you right in two thousand thirteen Tim McGinty who at that time adjustment elected Cuyahoga County prosecutor He created a special task force. I think he brought in some retired detectives to help deal with these new investigations and I and he in fact allowed reporters to repeatedly attend weekly meetings of this this special investigative unit so so real commitment there but <hes> but you also note that all of this happened after a terrible scandal of a serial killer and a rapist who had the bodies of eleven women had been discovered his backyard so the the case of Andrea <hes> Anthony Sowell and basically that caused this real <hes> soul-searching among <hes> law enforcement to in Cleveland. You know why why didn't we believe women who escaped from Seoul and told us about him. Why didn't we believe him? Why aren't we testing kits? How many kits are there after all? Oh my goodness Sir you know like seven thousand stored kits so it caused a real soul searching it was kind of like finding all of those rape kits in that warehouse and Detroit there. There was a moment where they stopped and said you know what we've got to do. Something about this and Cleveland in Detroit did well. Let's talk to one of the people who is actually doing this work so chief Rick Bell L. Joins US now from Cleveland Ohio. He's the special investigations chief for the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's office and a member of the Cuyahoga County Sexual Assault Kit Task Force Chief Bell. Welcome to on point. Thank you thank you very much so first first of all chief. Can you tell us a little bit about the prior to twenty thirteen th the the attitudes that may have been pervasive <hes> in in Cuyahoga County law enforcement that allowed on so many kids for example to go on tested as Barbara had been saying earlier. Perhaps there was a culture of disbelief in in addressing victims when they came forward. was that a problem in Cuyahoga County well. It's a fair question. Ah <hes> there's a lot going on that kind of happened. When all of these rape kits weren't weren't tested part of it you could say that there was an old police culture that doesn't exist now that kids didn't need to be tested in part of it was perhaps in Unbeliev for shutting down of some of the cases <hes> that doesn't seem to be the case now? The culture seems to been changed because of all of the attention that we've brought to all of these kits and all of the work work. That's been done by the team here. Forty people good people as you said started by Tim Beginning but prosecutor Michael o'malley's is a fervent beliefs that each and every single kit needs to be tested and investigated and that's the key that's the key that you have to have the willpower from somebody in each city whether it'd be the prosecutor or whether it be the mayor that every kid needs to be investigated not only tested but investigated all the way and that means talking to the victims and using advocates and a full team like we have so toes a little bit more about what it's taken to to bring so many of these cases to actually have a much more just form of conclusion because you must have been running up against statute of limitations on some of these cases. How'd you handle that we were in and Barbara Appropriately reported about that many of our cases were about to run out of their twenty year statute limitations and we had all hands on deck we read those cases and if a case was about to be <hes> dismissed or never be able to be brought? We needed to make sure that all of our investigators is to get her working at and sometimes we would go into the grand jury at four fifteen in the afternoon and the grand jury session would close at four thirty but we needed to do what we need to do early on to make sure that we didn't lose a single case and so Barbara said that <hes> <hes> Cleveland has been very or Cuyahoga County has been very successful in these efforts. I mean how how do you measure what the success has been well. <hes> I think the best way to measure is case by case when you're talking into the victims. The appreciation that are advocates are investigators are receiving from people as you knock on the doors as you talk to them and they say where have you been or I wished the police had done a better job back then and thank thank you cold-case unit for for talking to me now. <hes> we could spread across numbers that are enormous seven hundred forty eight defendants indicted and of those it was already convicted <hes> four hundred seventy two but and there's eight hundred twenty four serial rapists that you talked about but really the story is in those individual accounts from our survivors that are you're just so appreciative that <hes> there rapist has been caught and that somebody won't be raped again because we're following through now so barbara. Let me turn back to you. How does for for example the number of convictions actions Cuyahoga County has <hes> has brought forward or concluded? How does that compared to other cities that are trying to deal with their rape kit backlog? Oh it's it's stunningly high. Okay it stunningly high. I mean let me just mention something thing. <hes> it's called the it's called Sake the sexual assault kid initiative and this is the initiative where the federal government since twenty fifteen has given out about one hundred fifty four million dollars to various cities and states so that they will go ahead and in test their kits so I it's a great idea right. You know you testing kit. You catch rape issue prevent future rates. It's a great idea. The Obama Administration started it so I wondered okay. How are these guys doing her? These <hes> in this case forty-one sites that have I've been <hes> that received money in two thousand fifteen sixteen and seventeen with for the latest numbers I could get it turns out you know hey they've done launched fifty. Five hundred investigations have got five hundred please or convictions. That's a good news. The bad news is of those forty-one sites two of them Cleveland Detroit scored almost all of the successes right like thirty eight percent of the investigations two thirds of all the new charges eighty two percent of the convictions were brought by prosecutors and and in Detroit and Cleveland so what we see here is there is a a will. There's giving away money but we haven't seen these sites move as quickly as for example Cleveland has it's which suggests that there may not be the will now networks going to jump in here and say that's not fair. That's unfair. It takes a long time and that's true but rick you know what it took you you guys ten months sometimes to go from the time you sent a kit into the lab to the time of indictments see you guys were really really fast. Well Barbara Hang on here for a second because I do. I'm going to give chief Bella chance to respond to that but in about a minute and a half a we come back from a break so this is a point building. A good relationship with your doctor can be really hard especially when it feels like you have such a short amount of time with them. I don't know what it is about walking into the doctor's office but it's incredibly easy to forget half of what you wanted to tell the doctor checkout N._p._R.. Life gets new guide on navigating doctor patient relationships or subscribed to life kid all guys for all of our episodes all in one place and this is on point magnet Chakrabarti. We're talking this hour about why it's so hard for police to catch serial rapists and our conversation is based on a yearlong investigation that was just published in the Atlantic magazine Kazeem. The investigation was done by Barbara Bradley Haggerty. She's a contributing writer for the Atlantic and we have a linked to her. Article at one point radio DOT ORG chief Rick Bell also joins US today. He's with us from Cleveland. He is the special investigations chief for the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's office and a member of the Cuyahoga County Sexual Assault Kit Task Force now chief Bell just before the break as you heard Barbara was was pointing out that <hes> Cuyahoga County ramped up its efforts to deal with this problem rather quickly mm-hmm and what's your response to that in terms of <hes> not seeing that same effort or that same quick ramping up in other cities well. I guess we take a lot of pride and what we do. I'm a prosecutor. We like putting away the bad guys <hes> I have to imagine that everybody else that's in this position across the country would love to do the same thing we enter their unique position here because we have a lot of resources that have been given to us. We would not have been able to do this this without the Department of Justice or Attorney General Who's now our governor Mike Dewine and without the testing in house at the laboratory <hes> without being able to pick up the phone and say could you do a little more testing for us without our investigators as an advocate being right here co located with us and embedded with us. I'm not sure that this would have been successful but I think you have to get back in fairness <hes> to everybody to that question or that point that <hes> you in Barbara are pro made before and that's the willpower to do this. Yeah somebody has to take on the effort. Somebody has to make sure that they're investigating these cases all the way through not just a not just doing the testing and I think that we probably did have a headstart and I guess I can talk about what we've done and I can see that it's happening across the country. I'm more concerned about those cities that had happened done it inventory that haven't even started or attempted that happened <hes> the willpower to even look at it than say. Is there a culture change. We need to make something here because I think you're making a very important point in Cuyahoga County you had the combination of willpower and funds as you said <hes> Barbara in her reporting points out that there are other cities that have funds that have not or federal funds and have not come up with the same kind of results as you have love but to this point of willpower what you're saying. Is that someone in a position of influence or some ones have to care and if we're talking about a pervasive culture of not believing victims or <hes> not finding these cases worthy of of of more investigation. How do we change that? How do we get law enforcement officials prosecutors? D._A.'s governors as you're saying to care. It's you have to think about the victims that you're meeting <hes>. I'll just take it back to. I have seven sisters and three daughters that are watching over everything that I do. Do I think for a second that I would get away with a not caring for someone <hes> they would be on me and I think you have to take it down to that question. What if this were my daughter? What if this were my sister? What do I need to do to treat them fairly and righteously and to do everything in my power to do that and I think that people want what to do the right thing but so oftentimes the bureaucracies in different departments like kind of a fight against that and especially the volume the volume of cases? It's just undaunting for a detective <hes> in any department <hes> that doesn't have the resources are GonNa come back to you and just saying one more question for the chief because I absolutely here you when you say you know when you look into the eyes of victim that comes in wants to report a crime like like you might see. Your daughter someone you love but isn't a problem that according to Barbara's reporting <hes> what a lot of law enforcement officials are seeing isn't that kind of not having that that response of empathy but rather they're seeing Oh. Here's a woman who wants well was convicted of prostitution or here's a fourteen year old who might be lying or here's a woman who maybe chose of bad relationship. I mean they're not seeing someone that they care about. They're seeing something else entirely what you do you talk to them about out during their focus to the bad guy which is what we in law enforcement prosecutors and detectives like to do and the release it should be judgmental in this against him now that we know that rapists the rape again and again the now that we know that they'll also commit other crimes Case Western reserve pointed out that <hes> one of our rapists will actually commit seventy percent of the time. We'll commit another crime domestic violence burglary robbery you name it so once you have the opportunity to put a sexual offender in jail you're preventing other crimes from taking place you need to get into his mindset and why he did what he did and once you understand dance that this person is likely to commit another crime or has already committed a crime and you can put a pattern together <hes> then you can actually do your job and now that we can follow the science you can actually throw that kit into the male right away. Get it submitted get tested. Get it back quickly now. There's really no excuse on any case to not investigate thoroughly well Barbara. I know you WANNA jump in here so go ahead well. I agree with everything that that that he says it's the it's kind of a no brainer to go ahead and take these women seriously as one advocate said it shouldn't be. He said she said it should be she said let's believe her and let's investigate and we'll you know we aren't going to please should not be <hes> lightly putting a man's reputation in jeopardy by you know kind of doing these investigations and charging them when there's not the evidence but let's just assume that she's telling the truth truth for one thing I mean to get to the point where a woman is sitting in front of a police officer she has to have you know gone to the hospital garden this really intrusive rape exam where they swab and pluck every part out of her body. It's humiliating. It's painful it's traumatic and then to go and then they show up at the police station. These people should be taken seriously. These are not people who are doing this on a whim and so I think the first step is to say okay. The fact that she's sitting right here is really significant and we need to investigate that we you know we. I've been making callers. Wait for quite some time so let me just bring them back into the conversation here. THEA is calling from Detroit Michigan. You're on the air. Hi Thank you for taking my call. Go ahead <hes> so in two thousand sixteen two thousand seventeen I worked as a domestic violence advocate and Detroit Michigan. I was <hes> <hes> placed embedded in a precinct and I sat with a detective <hes> who investigated <hes> various crimes of domestic violence and sexual assault and <hes> it was a really painful experience because <hes> probably eight hours a day I listen to the detectives constantly victim blaming <hes> to the point that <hes> we <hes> there was a call into the precinct and this woman was saying that she was being held captive and this basement and <hes> the the detectives were all kind of talking about well. You know maybe she's just a run away and she's just did you know she's in trouble and you know maybe she's trying to like cover something bad that she did so because I was there. <hes> you know <hes> they were all just going to ignore the call but I said look. Hey you know this could be real and if it's real and you don't investigate it and this person is hurt then you know this could be bad so anyway they decided to take it to <hes> another to the I dunno <hes> Computer Division and just see they could locate her and they did locate her and she was being held captive <hes> so my experience for a year was to listen to detective <hes> who I mean I have so so many stories where they wouldn't investigate or they wouldn't respond to women or they said well she. Didn't you know she didn't act way we wanted to wanted her to. She wasn't respectful <hes> so we're not gonNA give her any attention so I know I'm so sorry to interrupt there but but thank you for your call and quite the story from your experience in Detroit six precinct Barbara I mean you go ahead and respond to the but she also makes me think of you. In addition and you also write about how like there are some places where there's training going on within a law enforcement agencies when when it comes to changing attitudes about victims but go ahead right right and I thought Detroit was one of the places that's so this story is it's. It's really stunning to me and and I hope she leaves her telephone number because I'd like to talk with her. <hes> there are places. I mean let me mention a couple of things one is there seems to be often division between prosecutors prosecutors and police <hes> and what what we've seen in a lot of cities in Detroit is one of them in actually Cleveland is another is the police were more reluctant to make changes to really thoroughly investigate these cases. It's why the Cleveland Task Force had to hire like twenty-five detectives out of retirement they couldn't get them from the police department so there's there's this kind of divide between the police and the prosecutors and that was true in Detroit as well. I mean Kim worthy basically had to hold bake sales to get money to not quite that bad but she had to do fundraiser razors to get money to test kits because legislature wasn't giving her money and the and the police were kind of dragging dragging their heels on it and so there is his division. I thought it was a little bit better in Detroit. <hes> it sounds like they have a ways to go but you're right. There is training going on in. It's it's funded by the sake the federal program <hes> the central sought could sexual assault kid initiative program and so there is training going on but I'll tell you I've talked to the detectives and the researchers who work with the people that the prosecutors in the police out in these various sake sites and what they you told me is that it is really hard to change a culture that basically you know they say Yeah Yeah Yeah we believe women but when they're having a beer with you know with the guy after after the session they're like hey you know what I mean. We just don't believe eight out of ten. They're just flying and so so the these these attitudes are really hard to change. I think the metoo movement will change things. I think we are in a different move different moment right now where things are going to get better but we have a long way to go. Let's get one more call here before we run out of time. Joe Is calling from yonkers New York Joe. You're on the air yes hi. I'm retired New York City detectives. I work in the Bronx for the last twelve years of my career and <hes> for the most part <hes> you know I lived in Westchester in a nice area but I went to work down at the Bronx and it was very bad especially during the eighties last few years back there I've been retired for twenty years but now it sounds good on paper what everyone's saying but I actually lived on those streets every day and and it's dangerous and the people down their life is cheap. They don't care. It's a whole different things where I live quite honestly. I don't WANNA sound rule but I live in White Neighborhood Westchester. When I have to go to work down into the Bronx every every day I mean it was literally hated the cops? They hate me. I'm a white guy. It got to the point at the end of my career. I'll be quite honestly and I don't WanNa be rude because everyone's I'm just trying to be honest with you that most of me and the men and women on our force we didn't even care anymore. You can kill each other for kids and now it sounds cool to say that but I'm telling you God's honest truth. I lived this every day. You go to work and these people. You don't know if you're GONNA get killed and you. We don't make a lot of money you know. People think cops get paid a Lotta we don't but I'm just telling his rape and murder down the Bronx. We were actually told to stand down on stuff like that. That wasn't even important. Okay you know Joe to let me hear you were told by whom to stand down. I would call by our sergeant makes you you take care of yourselves. That's the priority he's animals killed each other. They don't care about you and isn't it and I'm telling you God's on what they told us well Joe. Thank you for your call very much. We're just running out time and I want to get a response to to your story of your personal experience from Chief Rick Bellsa chief bill you her Joe. They're saying that his experience from a couple of decades ago in New York I think just what's your response to what he said then. It's <hes> it's outrageous. <hes> I believe exactly what he's saying. You've seen I've seen it you hear about it. <hes> there are some parts of the country that are more difficult to patrol <hes> than others and it's true and it wears down <hes> a police officer <hes> they could wear down at department <hes> but you talked about the necessity for training we have to train train train constantly the neurobiology the brain on the invulnerability issues <hes> sensitivity issues <hes> towards <hes> are diverse population in less you have training. You'll never learn about the the fight flight or freeze aspect. You'll never learn how the victims might not seemed appropriate to you as a police officer as a prosecutor <hes> because they all act differently and in fairness to the police police I think police officers if they had more resources from their administration you know they'd take it. They love to go to trainings. They would love to be able to learn more about how to combat crime and they would love more resources and they're not <hes>. They're not out there now. That's not an excuse you have to fight against this. Every single day has a law enforcement officer whether you're in the courtroom or whether you're you're out on the streets <hes> and yes you have to protect yourself but you're there to serve here there to serve others and that's why you take the job. It's an oath that you take and you have to be diligent and you have to be vigilant to care for others in this job well Barbara. We just got a minute left to go in my last the question for you. Is You know thinking of the success in Cuyahoga County. There's there's so much that's been learned right about the propensity for rapists to be a serial rapist or as chief Bell said they commit a whole variety of crimes <hes> there just seems as if there's a whole new chapter in what we understand about these <hes> cereal offenders how what's it GonNa take to sort of spread that knowledge and perhaps change the way that law enforcement even a approaches these these crimes in the future well. I think one thing is basically shows like this will help <hes>. I think the federal government giving money for training helps a lot Kamler hers is talking about one hundred million dollars to test rape kits <hes> I think I think we are in a moment that things are beginning to change. I think there's a generational change that will be required. <hes> I think some people will have to retire and a new younger officers will have to come in and be kind of more sensitized but.