EP32: Branka Panic: Influencing Peace by leveraging Artificial Intelligence
You're listening to Masters decoded podcast series. I'm your host and the chief decoder a nice Merchant through this podcast. I bring in guests were successful in a different Walk of Life to decode and maps are careers and Journeys with the hope that we gained all our learnings the world around us is changing exponentially and how the impact of artificial intelligence technology and other socio-economic factors have either influenced or enhanced my guess careers. In today's podcast. I have invited Bianca Panic from a humble beginning to set up the think-tank working at the intersection of artificial intelligence piece human sexuality democracy human rights and humanitarian action. Branca is a political scientist expert in International Security International Development policy and peace pack with years of experience working on issues of fragility conflict and violence at the humanitarian peace development Nexus. She's the founder of the center for exponential Technologies and founding member of sustainable healthy habitats and healthy humans for peace. Besides her work Rancor consults and provide strategic support to International organizations governments and Civil Society organizations on the use of artificial intelligence machine learning virtual reality and related Technologies. In which she emphasizes diversity ethical implications and human security and accountability to affected populations. Our work has been covered in major Publications and it is my honor to have her on the show. I branca welcome to Masters decoded podcast series. Thank you for taking time out. Hi, of course, it's a pleasure to be here. Cool and Company which you run is such a big interest area for me as well. But today when you think about peace and you think about AI they don't get spoken in the same breath or in the same sentence. So why this idea what happened and what got you to stop this company? Thanks for this question. And you say I think it's it's a really good one and people usually ask this. How can we actually connect the two land for me off or people who signed today for please it was actually a natural thing for us. It was a must almost a moral obligation for people to think about peace and and peaceful societies when they think about young guy and I when we started talking about this topic you and I we were talking also about as a technology and pieces of survival and that was a really trigger for me a really interesting thing because for me peace is not only about surviving this is actually off driving as well. And for most of the people there first Association of peace is usually war or or absence of war and and a i v e Works not only to stop Wars and conflicts in violence, which is extremely important, but we work on sustaining peace on recognizing those thoughts are lying conditions that make a society peaceful. And this is this concept that I would like your audience and listener has to hear about this is what we call a positive piece about attitudes institutional structures that create and sustain peaceful societies. So how do we then tie this notion of. Technology and I think we can agree that peace and Technology always had a complicated relationship. It was not always an easy not always off or is it one and and when we look today when we looked at so your listeners are in high heeled there or in general exponential technology. So a lot of technologies that come into age Sunbrella off and I I I think that this relationship becomes even more complicated and this is something that we try to explain to people and to show what is this connection and you see that AI is accelerating rapidly and shaping all fear of the Spheres of of our lives. And at the same time this power of makes it possible to tackle so many big challenges in our lives and we see that piece is one of life's challenges. So we want to use a I practically be going to use this positive words to see how we can make our society is more peaceful and that's what we saw in the previous couple of decades. It's that technology and especially now ai is mostly used in Warfare. This is what we hear. Those are those are those buzzwords right song Autonomous weapons or Killer Robots. Yeah or drones and we believe that this is again a very important for us to serve as as a sort of Guardian sort of Peace in relation to these Technologies as all but we should also take advantage in researching how these Technologies can be used also to prevent and mitigate and resolve conflicts. And and this is something that may I for peace is trying to bring to the table. How did this idea come about to leverage AI for peace what got you to initiate this company and was there something in the back which was growing which got you to think about 4. Yeah, I think many things to be honest and I truly believe that each one of us and the work that we are doing is I'm a sheep by our backgrounds personal backgrounds as well even spaces, you know, where we are working and people that we are working with so I think. This definitely ship my decision to work in this area first of all from the perspective of pieces such so I was born and raised and lived most of my life in the region called Balkans. Okay, and maybe where the listeners who are not familiar with this region. So Balkans is home based in south east Europe and we had a very complicated past throughout the history. Not only recent one but the far one as well. We are known to many people as Powder Keg or or powder keg of Europe. So I think this can explain alot how explosive the reason is off and because of yeah, it's it's a difficult region to live in I think and this Heritage that I'm probably bringing between shapeless idea of working for peace and almost any family from from my region. I think if they look in in their pasts own 19th and 20th Century or maybe even earlier than that, they can realize that there was barely a single generation that it didn't go through war or that was not affected by conflict. This is this heavy Heritage that I'm talking about and I I was I grew up through one of these periods as well myself and I thought Simply spontaneously, I think decided to dedicate my work in this direction to make sure that we keep our society safe and Thursday is all and then seeing on the other side how Technologies are in general impacting as I said our lives and what is this potential to impact of peace? I decided to merge the two and I think this was just the beginning of AI for peace only when I actually started working in data scientist, and when I moved to us and joined the data team from my work in DC I realized that there is a gap in this field. There's a lot of organizations who are picking up now not only on the business side, but in General trying to see how a I can be used for good but not many of them trying to see how a dog Be used for peace and just recognizing this Gap and the need of exist exist of the needs to have a platform where we can gather a community and discuss these issues this motivated establishing of four pieces as a hub and community of practice of people who want to make sure that the contributes to more peaceful world's know it's motivating and candidly it is heartening to hear even in that conflicts era and what you had seen you did also educate yourself to be not burdened with what's your surrounding or what the social political environment was but also to teach yourself know what's right or wrong and that led you to to us where you did your Masters but you Canna versity. So how did that transition happen? How how are you keeping up with your studies during the childhood home? Of the conflicts which are going around. How was the Family Support enabling all of that, which was during that error. Yeah, well it was you can imagine like going through any War it was a complicated time at that time. You didn't go to school. So we didn't have wage internet connection or or even TV this covid-19 reminds me a lot about the the. The event through When The War was happening in my region and life somehow stops. But you also learn to appreciate life much more and I think this was this is this memory that I'm having from this time. And then as I said, this shaped my vicious will to to break in this area so early on while I was still studying. Well, well, I was still at high school. Actually I took that as an activist so I joined the resistance movement to oppose the authoritarian regime of that time. And and then I decided to study political science has on my bachelors was in the international relations and my first Masters in International Security and off when I started working with a refugees who were coming from Middle East and North Africa. So unfortunately new conflicts continued happening in other parts of the world, but I think I mean this was the the first time when we actually started combining technology with thinking about conflicts or or in this case, it was assisting refugees and helping them on this path and and reintegration. So this is this time off was I think that the this changing moment for me when I realized that not many things were happening in this area, especially in exponential Technologies in Europe dead. And then I decided to make this strange decision as a mid-career professional professional to to leave my country and go to u s because I got a bought a chance to do this machine learning related regnier. So I was awarded as a Rotary International Peace fellow and this is how I may drive the Duke University and did a two-year research on combining artificial intelligence with peace-building blah. And this is how the story the story evolved. So let's talk about a little bit about the the way you were supporting and you were being helping the month. I would say the the refugees around that and you know, mentally you have to be much more stronger right because each refugees Comes through a very different need and a background how has that shaped your thinking today when you look at peace and when you look at a I mean you think about those refugees how it could help them because I look at those three Focus areas on your website and kind of sums up what you are thinking about and what your focuses so somewhere all this ties up. Thank you so much for this question because not many people actually think about this and I think this is a crucial question for developing artificial intelligence technology or any technology. Is that impact vulnerable populations. And and for me this was this part of an experience, maybe not going directly through through this myself would actually working with people who are going through this to realize how important it is to have their voices included as well. And I thought time I was working in humanitarian relief. So I worked with a refugee Center and people were coming from different conflict affected areas having barely anything with them mostly a backpack because they were walking or this song A very difficult path for them to go through but most of them always had a cellphone. So this was an interesting moment when we realized that this became a very essential technology for them almost a survival technology, you know, this is the this tool that was helping them to find a way on their way to Europe or to stay in contact with their families to get information. And then we also started thinking about this. Okay. It's just such an essential thing for them how we can proactively use that tool to to help them on this path. And there is this amazing organization called Technologies and they started their initiatives throughout the world. They work with refugees in different refugees sensors. And this is exactly what they are doing connecting Technologies. With the needs of refugees so they started organizing hackathons throughout the world. And and this is how I jumped into one of the haircutters wage. We had 48 Hours of very intense work off thinking about solutions for refugees, but the Innovative so hackathons are not anything Innovative anymore, but for them the Innovative part was that they were not only including people from Texas side and people on the communitarian relief side. They actually included refugees themselves. So that was really an immersive experience sharing space with them talking with them hearing from their direct experience. You know, we were not pushing Solutions bottom out. We actually talked with them so long this feeling of Grassroots approach and real human censored what we call today human censored. This is what we experience at that time and that was Almost five years, I think or four years ago. So these were those Beginnings, you know, little bits and pieces that gave me an idea what what can be found on and today we are thinking even a step further with a big data and all of the amount of information that we are gathering from different resources, and we are thinking proactively how can we use this to help different vulnerable populations, but at the same time and be very conscience that the utilization of these Technologies can create unintended consequences as well. And this is this part of inside that I got. I think when I moved to your SM actually joined the data team, I was working at the World Bank in DC with the unit called fragility conflict and violence birth. Just seeing that although you have you don't need malicious use of the technology. I mean, it's really important to concentrate on this. But even when we have good intentions off when you really want to create a positive impact we can again create unintended negative consequences. And this was I think a huge insult Kori. I for peace and one of the reasons why we created this platform to talk with people to keep these conversations active and to make sure that anybody who works on a I think about unintended consequences or what we today call ethics and different elements of of Ethics. Yeah, and the ethics question comes in because of the data itself has malicious data in it or it has been blocked from that perspective. And the topic you are talking about is peace and conflict regions or conflict areas finding data during that scenario is difficult because in many years of data don't exist because of the social political environment people would be saying there is no data and you know, a lot of movies a lot of Articles talk a lot about that. We don't have data. We don't know how many people are affected by so-and-so like I don't want to bring that up. But the reason blast which happened in one of the Middle Eastern region. Nobody knew how many people got impacted how many people died and it was unfortunate because there was lack of data or the data was there but it was hidden somewhere. So, you know, you did a hackathon as well and you were saying you were talking to a lot of these refugees. How did you tackle that problem? And when you today tackle the problem of AI for peace, how do you tackle the data problem? Because in corporate world also people say oh this is not any I use case because there's no data. So, how do you go about solving that Yeah, I think there are two very important elements of your question. And and before I tackle the last on let me go back quickly to what you said at the beginning that when we talk about ethics we think about data ethics and what we usually call is biased so it's not only that we don't have data. But even when we have their think about the things about fires data and embedded discrimination or biases that are already out there that we are in a way emphasizing through the utilization of algorithms or trying to change for different problems to be the algorithms and I think this is only partially true it's it's very important to think about this and to to tackle the bias in data, but it's very important to think about the application Phase of of a certain solution and Technology as well. And this is what we often see in humanitarian field or or peace-building field. That even if we had the perfect non-biased data set even if you didn't have black holes, even if we had everything on this paper, we still need to be very careful how certain Solutions and algorithms are being utilized in practice and let me maybe just explain this way to to audience a bit from from my own work. So I was I joined the team the data team that was developing algorithms for predicting probability of family and happening in Conflict areas. So I was brought to the team as a social scientist to validate the if the algorithm is at all not at all a good solution for a problem like this and this is why I'm saying even if we had all of the data related to this problem and we didn't we would still off. A huge ethical problem because what we realized is that a modern families are not natural disasters, so they are minimum wage and they are used as a tool starvation is used as a tool of War. So when we develop an algorithm and put it out there as a public good to International organizations to use to tackle femynor to know well in advance when certain population will be in hunger. We are also am giving this algorithms to potentially malicious actors and we are going back to this complicated context of wars and conflicts and often government wage, even those malicious actors. So there is this element of you know, additional ethical layer of consideration when we are developing birth. Or when we are thinking that we are solving challenges with algorithms or or a I so this is one thing just to try to explain to your audience how complicated it is to walk on but but how even additionally complicated it is when you are working with vulnerable populations and trying to solve issues that they are struggling with life. And when you are approaching problems and go back quickly to think that you mentioned absolutely lack lack of data and and this is very important to recognize and to be honest and transparent about this and I think this is something that we see as a wave of activism as well that people are becoming people who are working on becoming more and more aware and transparent about this the other way is or the other important element for tackling dead. Problem is again the access to different Technologies and even to the internet is such and I can give another example of conflict in Syria Iraq, and how actually because of this lack of data that you were mentioning citizens themselves started playing this role of citizens off Witnesses, like physical Witnesses and they themselves started posting either videos or information or tweets or wage in any model. It doesn't even have to be a social media even traditional media in some countries. It's even the radio. So what what what is being published on radio can be used at that data point so data points are not only numbers any more natural language processing now we have this ability to use everything that is textual or even voice an Choi. And to use it as that missing data point and what what Syrian activists and citizens allowed an enabled us to do is actually get this amazing amount of evidence of crimes that were happening in Syria. And and this is becoming becoming an extremely helpful tool for human rights lawyers or human rights protectors and organizations who are working in this field to cover those gaps and to use the information that citizens themselves can find well, you know the topic which are focused on For peace is also a tough one where you would be getting a lot of pushback. I'm sure because one is peace and one is a I am. So have you had any push packs or have you had people coming to you? You shouldn't be doing this. In a polite way, I would say I'm sure they could be not sure. I think you pointed this in a right way. I think both of the topics are very complicated to say at least and what we experienced from the peace side is that so we try to work globally although be started from California and register the organization be really try to go as much as we can globally to cover different parts of the world are off advisors are from Columbia Ethiopia Kyrgyzstan. And then when we look into these specific Regional approaches, it's we see the different plants also have different issues. They even perceive peace content of the world in a different way or some of them even have a saturation of Brooklyn piece so this is one challenge that we are struggling with and the other one is actually a i because I is dead and I'm sure that you probably encounter this as well that very often people can be biased towards and Technologies and they can generalize very quickly. They just pick one news, you know, the malicious use of facial recognition or a surveillance technology, which is absolutely an important topic but they immediately generalize this negative emotion across the Spectrum and I think the AI is such a complicated set of Technologies. And then each one of them can be used in different ways. Did I don't think any generalization will bring anything good. So this is this is one of the challenges. And then when we started we actually bought it will be complicated to convince peacebuilders, you know being or to help them understand the I am is complicated terms. And and this is how we started that we publish the our first publication was this non-technical guide about a I woke to translate those complicated Concepts and to explain to people what the potential of the technology is. And what was the surprise for us. It's nice other side that we didn't realize that we will have to explain to a i people with peace actually is and so this wage isn't this interesting Insight that often we see the organizations that are actually working what we call peace-building field, but they don't Define themselves in that that way home. Please don't recognize this or this is not the way how they would pitch, you know, their start-up or business because this is not something that off this business world is used to so, this is an interesting insight and this is what we are trying to do now to not only explain to both groups of what the terms are. But also great we'll build Bridges between the two land to make maybe communication between them easier because we really believe that choice everybody not only peace Builders, but everybody needs to know what AI is and what kind of impact algorithms have on our lives. But but also we believe that experts computer scientist ml engineer and everybody in this field need to be peace builders in a way Jose. The little bit, you know, they need to be aware how their work is impacting everyday lives of people and how they're impacting peace as long. Okay, and you've been saying V. This is an almost humanitarian initiative, which you are driving who's V all about? How big is your page? How did you get the team aligned to this guy for peace? Yeah. It's it's a very interesting question because you really think I think find that out of our previous work so Founders and the people who gathered around this Advisory Board of the I-4 piece most of us wage were previously working either in the humanitarian field or the development or peace building and of course, we buy in the meantime had people from AI side as well. Joining what you realized is that it's crucial to open this network as much as possible. You realize that often. These kind of organizations function is a little closed circles and then it's really hard to get into that Circle and be part of conversation. So we want to go in a completely different direction. We want to open up at 5, and we want to be inclusive and this is why I'm saying we are more functioning as a sort of a network where we want together experts communities of practice when you say experts we don't mean only experts but also anybody who is bringing this field expertise and ultimately the the same common citizens as well. And and this is why we are trying to some of our work is really dedicated to talking and speaking with common citizens. So we are publishing these new song. We are trying to keep people informed what is happening in these fields. And and I think what is maybe a bit different than these when I'm thinking about how we start the most of the organizations that are working on researching the social consequences of the I and and this is what we are doing the most of them are sponsored by people who were either working in big tech companies or related businesses or are still working their job or the organizations like this are established in the framework of the University. So it's a small think tank in us scene with these kinds of organizations are either established in Stanford or Harvard or MIT as similar as well throughout the world. This is the case. And in that sense be honest different. So we are an absolutely a grass-roots type of platform initiated and started but by a bunch of enthusiasts who are dedicated to to keeping the peace in the world that positive is that I mentioned at the beginning and and Thursday because I think we are starting from this position. We really want to include as many people as possible in this process. Yeah peace has become a big topic today around the world because the Spanish because really emotionally challenged many of us. I would say that's what has really bought. The the pandemic has brought to the Forefront is peace, and the definition of peace and I'm sure you would be approached any of the organization would be approached to talk about the applications. It's not just the famine but to also see where peace can be disrupted home. As of the situation which are happening across the world. So, how are you today? Because it is very busy. For some pretty like you in this space right now. How are you keeping up? How's things happening during this pandemic for you? Well, maybe I can give you an example be the beginning of pandemic as for many organizations. I think the place has changed and the strategy and everything we have just to do with it provides and think about absolutely and and this was in a way a good thing because this is exactly thought brought us to thinking, you know be how you mentioned it and is now thinking about David as well and how it is impacting our lives and how cold it is impacting pieces mall or in general more vulnerable populations. So although we started our work as a thing thing planning to do a research paper you call me to be quickly jumped into Data related work and and then was really this positive aspect of of being able to work remotely. With people throughout the world just organizing to the work through zoo more slack and the first activity that we did was actually a net Nai chal lunch. We partnered with organization called on dental and they are functioning is a platform of AI and data scientists were putting their skills to tackle some problems related to Big role challenges and because they were mostly black connecting data scientist. They realize that a bit a pandemic we need to make a connection with people who are working in the field as well. And this is this added value that long for peace is bringing to the table. So in our membership, we have people who worked on previous Ebola pain that fun demek in West Africa experts in Rome. Health Organization in the United Nations and so on. So we did this real life program of what I mentioned previously of building a bridge between the two routes and we organized a 10 week challenge of utilizing the available data and trying to see what those consequences that pandemic policies are creating to the world's most vulnerable populations. And and this was really a good exercise and the project spontaneously happen and it was not easy at the beginning for the first two to three weeks. You were just trying to Define what will their ability means for different groups. It meant different things and then we actually realize how difficult it is sometimes to define a problem when you think from a data perspective wage. When you need a formula to express a certain problem and from a field perspective or vulnerable groups perspective where this vulnerability could be translated into formula that easily and it can be translated easily. Especially when you look again from different countries and different regions because we see how different regions are not going to be going through this crisis. So this was a really good experiment and I think this is exactly how any AI projects should be done currently and in the future just including a diversity of voices diversity of perspectives this group had more than 30% of women and diversity. We had more than more than forty countries throughout the whole representatives from those countries throughout the world song. And just hearing all of these voices and having them include was crucial for for the project itself. So this is a sort of a pattern and the lesson I would like to keep utilizing and sharing with other organizations as well who are working in this field. Looking back at your career and your life also still young but I'm just saying you've seen a lot and in the name of the peace, you've seen them in a very different life than common human being with see it and you've impacted in many ways also using the knowledge and the experience and your own personal experience. I had there been moments which really says I need to keep going because what I'm doing is good, and I'm making a change. Well, you mean the moment like a specific event in your life. Yeah any work that you did which when you look back and you say yes, that is an impact. I created or my team. Yeah, that's that's a very good question. Yes. Absolutely. I think first we thought you were asking about the motivation for work. And and I think whenever I turn the news on may I suggest so many problems we have and this keeps me motivated, you know, there's so many things to be done. But absolutely that's that's a good question. You need to get some impact in results as well to to keep going and and I think for a guy for peace we are still very young organization. We just piloted in January. So I'm still hoping for wage impact to to come for now. I think the feedback of people and actually their interest and and their motivation to join this community and recognizing that we've actually need to think more about AI in peaceful terms not only in general ethical terms is a sort of a recognition that this is improved. And and then in in my previous work, I think in humanitarian work, there are a lot of examples on everyday basis even a simple contract through the person is so rewarding. Yeah, just spending, you know couple of moments and talking and sharing experiences is just such a motivation to keep going. I had a very important experience. I think when I moved to us for the first time in my life, I experienced hurricanes and I came from were affected region, right so I know how that looks like. I've never experienced a bath disaster in such a way and I went to Puerto Rico that was a hurricane Maria that completely almost destroyed half of the island, so I went there dog. To join humanitarian relief and we were just trying to help local communities and to rebuild some of the destroyed packages and and that was such a huge shock for me to see how actually even a natural disaster can destroy the same way how wrong can destroy and I think that was an important lesson just to realize how and this is why I'm talking about this positive piece. It's not only about violence and conflict and off work. There are so many other challenges out there that we need to face and and to fall to have this positive piece. Yeah. So this is this is kind of these insights. It was really a a sort of a life-changing moment. Interesting today you spoke about there is a community being formed. There is a network being formed around the fifties. So for my listeners benefit if they want to be part of this, how do they get do that? Oh, absolutely, if they're interested specifically in in AI in peace, they can always reach out to us and virtually personally they can find me on LinkedIn. We have a website as well. They can contact us there. There are many ways how they can get engaged depending on their interests as well. So we always do a a sort of a tailor-made and Taylor took a pair the corporation. We do a lot of mentoring as well that that's a very important component for us and in general if people are interested in in this area and I speak maybe more to This Woman's side of your audience because I I still think there is a lot of work that we need to do on that gender equality and gender gap in a tank and especially wise I would definitely advise them to join women in a i there are different chapters different groups almost in every country now, so it's dead. But it's not a limiting factor. If you're not in you know us where we usually think the majority of things are happening. This is what brought me to Silicon Valley and then I realized that no that that doesn't need to be like this. There's so many moves really throughout the world. There is a group for your listeners who are more interested in a i f f I would definitely advise women any ethics group that is trying not only to bring visibility to the ethical elements of a I but bring visibility to diversity off well and how important the diversity I is. Yes, absolutely. So there are many many reasons how they can get engaged God. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that and I'm sure people will be reaching out to you to get to know more about this and talking about women in a i and the technology. you know, it's it's a very today it has opened up eyes for many I would say where it starts not just when you are in the corporate but it starts at the Grassroots level and I talked about Grassroots. It starts from Early Education. How do you do not deter or force a specific gender? I would say men and women both to think about Korea a certain way or think about education in a certain way now through this area for peace and you did speak about bringing in that aspect. How are you promoting that aspect also because that's a topic which is near to you, too. Yeah, absolutely. That's a very good point that I think we are recognizing this more and more how education is is important and I just wouldn't like people especially younger audience. If there is a younger audience of this podcast to think that it is too late, you know, if their society where their Community maybe knowledge them and pushed them in a certain direction and happens all over the world and I still think that education is a sort of a life-long effort and goal and and I see the importance of really supporting Tech education for job for younger people as well. But I also believe that there is a way for in in later stages of life to be included in this topic in many different ways and in terms of birth Education itself. I think their organizations are really trying to again in a similar way how women in in July epics are sharing a light to a jingle on elements of this stopping their organisation. We're helping especially disadvantaged groups in early-stage primary education or secondary education to get an ax just that a usually wouldn't get and I think that's extremely important especially seeing how different universities can be expensive or how educational field can be expensive. There is a way to enter this field without being disadvantaged, you know, because of lack of money or resources and job there there are numerous platforms out there and if anybody's interested just reach out to me platforms that are working on this volunteering base of Engagement off. Severe people will share their skills and learn others even people who are coming from MIT or or Stanford. So you don't you your job opportunities will not be limited if you are not present there and and then maybe an is just to emphasize the importance of this topic how we are talking I think for for decades about this issue of Gender Gap and recited by talking in Tech now we are talking about and unfortunately when we look into number as we still think we still see how situation is is very very bad and I got just to walk straight this I got some numbers so people can see how how difficult the situation is and I can just meet quickly some of them that women off. Wrenching meets up to 24% of the computer science work for us only 24% And what what is even more important maybe using this down in salaries between men and women so million salaries are only a 66% of the salaries of the male counterparts. So those discussions that we need to have as well. Why is this the case for the same work? We there is such a big pay Gap and and then another thing that would actually recommend from this network women of a I did that I became part of the Shadow light to this. I was not even aware of this and that it's not even a problem of Academia or entering to the working force of tech. The problem is actually keeping women because the work is shaped in such a way that it keeps men dead. I'm thinking about about this different experience that men and women are having through this work. So this is an important element that we need to think about them as well. And then I mean it's enough just to look at numbers of different big tech companies. That should probably give a sort of a role model to others but are not doing that. The numbers are really terrible even in Google or Facebook me see that women are less than 20% of the technical role and then for women of color the situation is even worse. So we definitely need to talk more about this, but we need to find a way to call the Bergen has Asians accountable and to bring you know these conversations to practice and to see how we can finally do something about this Gap. No, it's a it's a very I would say it is a very crucial topic and we have seen diversity brings in a lot of variety and I've experienced it myself, you know, and I have always had that healthy balance Even in our organization today. We have about sixty 40% you know, it goes up and down by two or 3% year in that but it's been there but it's been an effort to ensure that you know, you just don't force people in but you also get the right people for the right cause but also at the same time you bring in the divorce to be as much as possible so that you know, there's different perspectives which often you miss. If you have a line to one whether it is cost color gender off any of those aspects not it's not just about gender. It's about variety of diversity, which you should have within within your T, which is crucial. Absolutely. So I know we have on top of an hour back and I know you're super busy time is flying. We don't know we are still in October and I don't know how this entire here hath but you've seen a lot in life and I'm sure there are a lot of such people out there also who may choose different parts, but you've taken right in a very positive way and you're doing things which have an Ensure that what has impacted. You doesn't impact many Anglers. What would be your parting thoughts or advice be to somebody either going through the situation which you've been through or thinking about doing what what will be of talk to them? I will definitely advise to anybody to follow their passion. You know, I know it's it's off Maybe funny, but I really think this is crucial, you know, just listening your heart and and following what is close to to your heart and doing this work and not giving up when it's tough, It will be tough throughout the life in in many many ways and we see this through, as well. And I think that every time something doesn't happen or if you miss an opportunity that's only a way for another opportunity to appear, you know, and something better to have happen and just keeping this off approach don't being afraid, you know to start again and sometimes to fail but but don't give up. I think this is something that I would advise to log. to everybody on that note Banker. It was a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. I got myself educated about and peace and how they both can go together. So thank you for your time your precious time off. I really appreciated the conversation we had today so much and it was such a pleasure to be here and talk and I hope we will continue this conversation some day soon. I'm definitely definitely and you have a good day and stay safe and be peaceful. I would say thank you and is thank you for listening in and we close yet another episode of Masters decoded. If you've enjoyed the episode, please you can help us out by sharing it on social media. I would personally appreciate that. It's how we can reach more listeners and the more listeners. We have the more awesome guest I can get in touch and convince to participate in these conversations that are young boy to have for me and I hope they are a joy for you to listen as well. You can also help a lot leaving reviews on iTunes or your podcast service of choice. Reviews are surprisingly helpful in supporting the podcast to get to more listeners. 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