BuzzFeed CEO Jonah Peretti: 'We've transformed how BuzzFeed makes money'
They can't the digital podcast. I'm Brian Marcy this week. Joined by Buzzfeed Jonah. Peretti JOURNEY DISCUSS. How buzzfeed has diversified. Its business. Publishers can get more credit for driving purchases and why he's as committed as ever to buzzfeed news one now. We recorded this episode a couple of weeks ago prior to the acceleration of the virus spread. So this is one place. You won't hear discussion of it. Hope you enjoy it Jonah. Welcome back to the PODCAST. It's good to be here okay. So you were. You were on a couple of years ago when buzzfeed was sort of on the start of its diversification journey and. This is something that I talked to a lot of. Publishers about because a lot of publishers are on this explain where buzzfeed's business was two years ago and where it is now. I would say over the last three years. We've really transformed the way that buzzfeed makes money. We've diversified our business pretty dramatically So three years ago the business was mostly sponsored content. Seventy percent of our business was native advertising and this year will be twenty percent so in the span of a two three years. We went from having a line of revenue is the majority of our revenue to having to be A small part of our revenue. Okay and that's not just because it's gone down. It's a combination of going down And other things growing and so we've been able. We've been fortunate to be able to grow our top line revenue for ten years in a row ever since we had any revenue. We've grown our top line But we've done that while replacing some of our revenue with new forms of revenue. Okay I want to get into that. But talk about the the process of of embarking on that one. I guess having the decision to say. Hey we gotta change. What a change. This you know. We started this. I remember we were talking year. Many years ago Do you guys were really pioneering This idea they create content for advertisers. You wouldn't have to run display ads or do a lot of annoying things. Publishers typically do And it was wildly successful right but then at some point. It's like we got to change. And this is a sizable organization that we have to change. Explain the challenge in that so so part of it was we were ahead on native and we were ahead of the of the social platforms so we a year. Before facebook and twitter had in stream native style advertising buzzfeed had it. And so we were the place you would go to to get that kind of advertising that now has become pretty ubiquitous where you're scrolling through a feed of content and you see a sponsor sponsored content of of of some kind The platforms had certain advantages to scaling. That kind of advertising and so when we saw the platforms adopt this billions of users billion times. There's lots of data lots of You know the mandate marketplace for people to make content And so they started to to Cut into what was our core business. We were early to it and we did it first. And they saw that it was sadly the market doesn't like reward that like in perpetuity. I mean I think there was. There was a sense in which You know there was a time when Mark Zuckerberg didn't think you could put any ads in the stream or indeed And you know twitter. Did the sponsor tweets early on and there was lots of constraints of which kinds of tweets were allowed to be in the feed. And things. Like that We had already seen that. You could put branded content. If it was good quality content in the fee that click at a high rate that users would be okay with it and that it worked in mobile and so I remember back in those days. Facebook was there was all this question whether they could shift to mobile. We knew they could shift a mobile so when I was reading the stories about conveys hybrid at least one. Yes we we knew they could because we had already done it because buzzfeed with a native model was making content that you could consume my mobile and desktop printer. Ads were the same as our our content in terms of the formats. And so we knew that it would work in mobile but it got commodities but monetize lots of other people entered the market. There was a lot of of competition for it. The platforms Started to distribute content similar way to us or brand content and similar way to us so we knew we had to figure out new ways to to grow business. And that's I mean. You were distributing content on facebook and other platforms to that was not being monetize for reasons of the platforms making right. Yeah the laugh. I mean I think facebook in particular wanted to have more video content in their feed. So we Especially with tasty really just figured out a model to make massive user growth for or billions of views billions many billions of us but not a ton of money and not a ton of money because the way people are consuming the facebook feed is is they were scrolling through and they were spending a few minutes every day or a few minutes many times a day scrolling through snack oh content in their feet and you put a Pre roll ad on your video. People would just scroll past it. It wasn't it wasn't like Youtube where it was a more linear experience. And so if you're looking at just scroll past the pre real. They couldn't really put pre roll ads so they try that that didn't really work And so I think the idea back then as they should have just shared some of the news feed revenue right with with publishers. Who were making great video content starting to happen? I WanNa talk about that but like so you're in the situation where you pioneered a A really effective for advertising And that users didn't like But that other people start to do and for variety of reasons users did like no. That's what I'm yeah And And starting at commodities and the sort of the second sort of big form of didn't really come with all of this video in the feed right so explain how you ended up thinking about reorienting the business because it's really difficult to reorient any business but particularly buzzfeed was not small at the time. Yeah so we were fortunate that we had raised a lot of capital and we could take a long-term view on it and we knew that if people are going to consume a lot of video content in particular on social platforms there would have to be a business model that would emerge to support it and that would be in the interest of the platforms to have a way for video to be sustainable And Youtube it already figured it out In the sense that they have always had this fifty five forty. Five Rev share with with people creating people in influencers and companies making content and. You were pushing facebook to do so. We saw that our youtube business was working and that that was generating revenue And if you couldn't make super expensive game of thrones type content but if you made if you made Great pop lightweight personal social type content. You could make that work on Youtube and so It seemed like it was only a matter of time before facebook. Would bill the model t to make that possible. Okay but you don't want to Bet. The business on on on what facebook does right? I mean you gotTa take control of your own destiny to some degree. Although I know that doesn't make sense I I think you do want to bet the business on where you think the ecosystem as a whole is going and to me. It felt like the ecosystem was headed towards distributed media across many different platforms and to me. It felt like we would be able to build a profitable media network that reaches hundreds of millions of people. And if you had that kind of scale and across many different platforms would be able to build a good business and we saw that play out over the last couple of years. So what are the steps along the way? Then you have a much more diversified business now than you did three years ago. That's for sure at least your note that you shared recently. Yeah so so. Part of it was the media network and building out immediate network. In the early days of Espy we would make content and would make almost no revenue from the content and then we do native advertising. Would make our money that way Now we have a media network where every time we make video we generate revenue from pre roller mid. Roll every time. We make an article generate revenue through programmatic or custom display or drexel display and overall that works out to about A hundred and fifty million in revenue and it costs US less than one hundred fifty million dollars to make some content and so for For No money and actually generated profit. We build out a massive media network that reaches you know hundreds of millions of people every month across many different platforms including our own site and our APP where we have really significant scale as well. So we're not. We're not just a distributing media company. We we added this tribute video. We didn't pivot to it so we are. The busby website is bigger than ever And tasty now has a site. News has the site We have apps for both busby news and for for tasty So we have big owned and operated and distributed business about one hundred fifty million in revenue that is generated just from adjacent media and In the course of distributing our content across all these platforms we generate enough revenue to more than pay for that content. Then that network gives us the ability to generate revenue and build other businesses So when we build a studio and we may content and sell the content to say another platform. We have the ability to promote that with our network or when we do affiliate or commerce or content. We have this big network so when we may content shopping content. We know there'll be a big audience. They're all starts with with the big network and so like I guess. All of these businesses are more valuable because of the big network. Like you could be the best studio in the world and you go up against a lot of studios. But they can't then promote they they they can they can't they can sell show into net flicks or Amazon or whatever but they don't have giant network to promote it. Yes so you can just be a production company. But that's not a very exciting business and there's not great margins than that But if you Like we we Have a really interesting partnership with with this company. Echo THAT MAKES INTERACTIVE VIDEO PRODUCTS. And when they partnered with us they get great creative and great shows but they also get a partner who can help distribute those shows and reach reach big audiences. I'm so putting those two things together. Allow us to do things that you wouldn't be able to do without that that big network. Okay how about on the commerce site? I mean because there's a lot of publishers getting into commerce. I mean you guys Definitely experimented a lot. I think in this area But explain how much that's growing and how important that is in Going forward yeah so so. Last year we drove About half a billion and indirectly measurable sales transactions Downstream from all of our our commerce. you dro- you mean people clicked on things on buzzfeed and then they see a gift guide. They see a interesting round up. They click through you. Make money off of that. Whole five hundred million so we got a philly commission on all of that. Okay so it's not. We're not we didn't make that much revenue ourselves. We we made a you know about ten about a tenth of Commission. But you're getting you're getting money off that I mean it's one like look. You're creating tons of attention on on facebook with videos. But you weren't making any money off that it's it's a great business. And that's it's very high margin revenue that comes comes back to us And the reason we were able to do that we had this big network. We had lots of people who love bus content we because we had a focus on making sharable content. We thought a lot about how people take action. How does content inspire someone to do something so in early buzzfeed it was inspiring someone to share something with a friend now? We took that same data driven approach to say. Can we make something that inspires someone to buy something or transact or go on a trip We have a really interesting partnership with Hilton where we are doing travel content and then when people are inspired to travel they can directly transact. Yeah this is like you wrote about this about sort of narrowing Google's gotten a ton of credit because Like when you search gennifer something. They charge the advertiser to to be at the top of the search results. It's a wonderful like why build the road and he can just put up a toll booth right. I mean yeah I mean it's it's always easier to take credit for something then it is to do something. This is the age old Internet problem where those harvesting demand are overcrowded versus those who are creating the demand I think in a lot of ways But explain a little bit How the Commerce? Business is more than just an affiliate links business. Yeah so part of it is Curing the infinite choice on Amazon and Walmart and other places where Now everyone is used to having everything available at their fingertips online. And if you can create a trusted curatorial lands on it and help people discover new things. That's really valuable. So That's the basic affiliate business and then addition to that we have things like the tasty brand which we can license to have one hundred skew lines of pots and pans at at every Walmart in North America. And so when we're making a tasty video. It's using a cookware that you can buy at Walmart. And we're getting a cut of that. As a sense their licensing our brand and partnering with us which is a better lake margin business They both are pretty close. They're both they're both pretty close to one hundred percent margin businesses. Okay licensing. You're you're getting you know. Pretty much hundred percent margin revenue back and affiliate. You're you're you're getting paid a commission back and cut similar to programmatic revenue. Your where it feels like a hundred percent margin revenue now. Of course. There's a lot of people taking money along the way and and when we sell a pot and a lot of other people have to get paid and you know but in terms of the the on a technical matter. The money that comes back is money that the company gets to invest in keeping us to to build our business so buzzfeed started really with your own like experiments about you know what causes people to share things and you know the data science behind that. How hard was it to sort of reorient that to like? Wh what what makes people buy stuff I think a lot of it was similar In that we are we. We have a lot of really creative people who are making content and we want the content to be used in people's lives and that might mean sharing it with a friend and building a social connection with someone else it might mean Cooking something for yourself or your friends or your family so with tasty. We have this flood of of tips of people modifying recipes and sharing tips with each other about how to cook food It might be that. You're you're actually buying a pot or pan or a product to to do the cooking with tasty now in the tasty out any recipe. You can click a button. What's all the ingredients in a shopping cart that you can have delivered to your house from Walmart or or picked up at a Walmart store And so all these things are about making media not be something that you just consume but something that you use in your life And so we have taken this same data driven approach to making content where you combine the art and science creativity plus the data side and we have expanded other parts of people's lives. And so it's not like we're just now only focused on getting people to buy things we're focused on getting people to travel the new places and discover new places they can travel to watch new things on streaming services To Cook Cook food to Try A new restaurant To have a new experience to connect with people in in their lives or try. You know all these things that matter to people and I think that's the the piece that digital media can do better than traditional broadcast. Traditional broadcast takes one piece of media and tries to push that same piece of meat out to as many people. As possible digital media can be more intertwined with people's lives and being the love. You know being the switchboard for content for for commerce and culture being the type of content that causes people to have a spark where this. WanNa try something new or do something or go somewhere you know. That's what's always been most exciting to me and now we can do that in a deeper level because the Internet has returned mixed with the real world more and we actually see all the data. So how can you get credit for that though like I mean he talked about the Hilton Partnership. And we wrote about extending. It's an it's an interesting attribution story and attribution is kind of like people are like they could go to sleep. It's incredibly important thing Because WHO GETS CREDIT GETS MONEY And Google has gotten a lot of money and and faced gotten a lot of money because they're at the bottom of the funnel the the thing about attribution problems people care a lot when they're the one who's getting screwed over you know so if you're the person at work who's doing all the hard work and then your co workers taking credit for it and getting promotions and raises then you care about the attribution problem And if you're in an industry where where you know Google is saying look we. We drove all of this. This these great bookings to Your Hotel. Because look at all the search data that's converting to people booking your hotel when actually there was a article or video or or some content that was made by a publisher that inspired someone to go on the trip. Then this gets pretty right and it's like dude. You're just taking credit for all the work I'm doing but it's an age old problem. So why Buzzfeed GonNa Salvador House Buzzfeed GonNA solve it for for itself. The biggest way the reason why. It's solvable now. Is that the the marketing funnel is getting squished in mobile and people are going from inspiration and transaction. Much more quickly. So we're solving it because we're already driving half a billion in GM v from our affiliate and commerce business. We're getting that last. Click and the reason we can get. Alaska Click is that we're inspiring people and their transacting in such a short window that they're not pausing and then going and doing research on Google or buying somewhere walking into a store they're just doing it will be. I think for years. Publishers have been complaining about you. Know last click last clinic last classically. And you're saying now. Publishers can benefit from Las Click. Yes yes if you move the last click forward if you can go from inspiration to click faster you know we have you know lots of examples now where there's some products that you've never heard of a you know a for bow that shoots dog treats out and lets you you know. Connect with your work and you see a video on buzzfeed about it and you didn't even know it existed and you buy it forty five seconds after you. You know you know after you're done with a video you you buy it. That's being the top of the funnel and the bottom of the funnel. It's being the driving awareness and then purchase intent and then click and a conversion in this manner. Forty five seconds. And so if you can do that that's one way publisher can solve it. And and and be. Buzzy has an advantage doing that because of our scale and our reach the gauge my level of our audience and the way that they are used to using our content in their lives and sharing content with their friends like all of that helps us be better at going from that inspiration to conversion. You also and we're doing this with Hilton. And and and with other partners you also can get better at finding ways to take credit for the fact that say if you write about a TV show and someone gets excited to watch something because of coverage on buzzfeed if they later go to a streaming service and watch that show if you can measure that that's something that wasn't possible in say newspapers and magazines. I mean how many times do people watch a movie because they read about it in the New York Times and the New York. Times is not getting any credit for that at all right or and how many times people you know and and in our case like so many people read about different kinds of cultural products on buzzfeed and if we can now directly connect that to the consumption because all the big traditional media companies are now moving online and everything is moving to streaming and You you you know it used to be we would show advertisement for a TV show or write about a TV show in our editorial coverage and then people have to go. You know in our case might not even have cable with our young audience and can't even watch this show And if they can watch the show. It's a totally different system and you can't really connect the dots together very easily. Yeah now you're starting to be able to connect the dots and I would interesting. Is I think in media a lot of times. Everyone focuses on. It's sort of bifurcated and people say well brand advertising good and performance marketing kind of gross direct mail stuff but the reality is performance. Marketing budgets are bigger and many cases Because they can directly drive sales they can be uncapped in some ways and in. Google did an amazing job over the years of sort of repositioning itself from from advertising. Which is a cost center To cost of goods sold which is just sort of like okay. You you pay. You can pay that as much as possible. Remember Tim Armstrong like meeting with Tim Armstrong and he was like Oh all. These budgets should be uncapped. That's a great pitch. To how much are you now able to get into performance marketing budgets versus before? I mean like you're obviously doing a lot with like awareness and just regular brand advertising but it sounds like what you're talking about is more akin to performance marketing. Yeah What's interesting about our affiliate business? It has certain qualities that are like brand advertising. You know so. The toothbrush was You know a partner where people would look at buzzfeed article about the product and it was really like brand advertising. It was like here's how it works. And here's how you use it. And here's what's good about it and But then you buy it at the end so then it's performance you know and you can do these brands studies on our on our affiliate con. Commerce posts brand commerce. You can do brands days and see you. Get a brand left again. They're getting sort of smushed together And so the the problem with performance mar performance advertising. I you know I. It's easy from a finance standpoint. Pnl You can look at it and you can say okay. I'm I'm I'm spending a dollar and and getting you know a dollar and ten cents of margin so I can keep running that in some cases the you would have gotten the sale anyway. How do you not spend the money so you could have been more profitable and then you look at Your Business? A few years after doing these uncapped budgets at Tim. Armstrong was suggesting. And you realize that a big chunk of your profit margin is going to Google and it's becomes essentially a tax on all of Your Business and so your your margin becomes smaller and so much of what you and all. Your competitors are doing their uncapped Advertising and Google and let's say you have three competitors in somewhat commodity space who all do uncapped advertising with performance marketers. The winner is the performance market or not necessarily any of the brands. They become more commoditisation. Sounds like a good way to have a trillion dollar market CAP. Yeah it's good work if you can get it But I think a more something where that actually creates value you know when buzzfeed makes travel content. It's inspiring people to travel when we make content. Shopping is inspiring people to buy gifts that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise and so that's what advertising marketing historically been about but you also can have transaction and so and so you know. Why does the travel industry spends so much money on? Google? That doesn't inspire anyone to travel. That just takes advantage of when they've already made all the decision to travel and already decided to go someplace. Then then they charge a tax for it. It would be a lot better to for the industry as a whole if they all agree. Let's stop this arms race and instead let's put all of our marketing budgets into things that show people how awesome it is to travel and all the coolness is they can go and all the ways that they can have great experience with their friends and family. And if everyone did that you you might have. Ten twenty percent. More travel happen which would be good for the entire industry. Instead you have people you know trying to harvest whenever that someone is already going to travel. And that's that doesn't increase the PIE at all. And it and it cuts into the margins modifies the people who are actually providing the services so just flip back to the platform side. I mean you shared figures. I mean you're you're making a lot more F- directly from platforms Than you were three years ago. That's for sure Yup Remind me again like how much more and how do you define lake the payments? You're getting from from quote unquote platforms. I mean when you look at the at the five big tech companies or you can clear the famed companies. Yom around hundred million in revenue that comes into buzzfeed from various sources So that might mean programmatic. Ads run by Google or pre roll ads from the youtube marketplace or instant articles or mid roll from facebook Affiliate from from Amazon. All that. Yeah so so you know there. There's this sort of question that I was wondering about a couple of years ago. Which is who's GonNa make content because the big tech companies don't seem to want to make content but you know youtube is fulla video. Someone has to make Facebook is full of articles. And and and and videos. Like who's GonNa make those? The way people decide to buy. Things on Amazon is through articles and gift guides and and reviews and all these things. And so who's GONNA end up making all this content If the traditional media you know especially print kept being under pressure And shrinking and digital even digital media having tough some tough years and less content was being made and yet these massive super profitable companies that need lots of content and everywhere. You go people are saying. They need more content. You know you talk to all these different tech companies from you know twitter airbnb to snap to facebook. And everyone's like Oh. I want content about the stuff that we're doing and I need content for my platform and content is one of the big reasons people are coming. This is weird imbalance in the marketplace where there's tremendous demand in need for digital. You're saying they're still they're still an imbalance. There's still an unbalanced but it's it's that's why like in that memo that where you see this increase in spend from these big law firms on from a small level right from a small level but it's you know it's it's it's getting to be It's getting to be significant. I mean I know you know. One hundred million dollars is not that much for you. Know Google facebook or Apple But spread across dozens and dozens of partners So you pleased mildly pleased. I'm just I just pleased that the idea that there's this imbalance and that it needed to be fixed and there was going to start to be movement on big platforms that new content happy. That shift is happening. I'm happy it's moving in that direction and I'm happy that I wasn't insane to think that companies Robert Thompson was out there. He was he was talking about carriage. Fees and whatnot. I don't think we've gotten there yet. But we'll facebook is basically painting a carriage fee to news organizations in the sense that it's not a rev share. They're paying money to have the ability to take syndicated content that I'll ask ques- you probably won't answer but I'll do it anyway. How much is this driven by? All the pressure that they're under On other fronts. I mean they're fighting titanic battles. I mean there's there's there's regulators in Europe Wanna like Dismember their companies and whatnot And this seems like a convenient way to At least publishers. A little happy happier like they're trying to buy good press or something like that. I can see in these companies. Just cut the check right. But part of the reason they're getting Criticized and attacked is that they're they have articles like the pope endorses. Try before the election rate so so in some cases pain for journalism is not just a bribe. It may be that some people within these companies think. Oh let's see it as a bribe. It's also they have. This need to have content on the site that isn't trump endorses or the pope. Endorses trump. Like you can't have one does not endorse the yes he would say. He's much better than the pope. That's true. See the pope as a real rival for or narcissist got in that fight over the wall and stuff. Yes so I I think. Part of the reason platforms are paying is that they need a good supply of content. And you look at some of the regulatory pressures that they're facing some of it is why can facebook distribute article where their algorithms recommending at tons of people that says the pope endorsed trump with no consequences but if any traditional publisher did that they'd be sued for libel. They'd be you know they would. They would like have all kinds of backlash and problems and and you know why do they have these content protections that that means that they can say anything. Do anything right anything and just say Oh. We're just a platform and so people are no longer accepting that and so if they don't accept that they can either have some impossible regular regulation where they have to vet every piece of content on their platform which is impossible if your youtube or facebook or they can make sure they have at least some source of trusted content from partners they're paying that have actual journalists working on their staff. I guess I maybe I was Pena too cynical but I mean the interests are more aligned now and I think in part because of all of this well earned pressure on them between publishers interest which is pay us for the stuff where making you're distributing and the platforms interests. I don't know. There seems to be more alignment. Yeah so there was such an imbalance and we're starting to see this new equilibrium. Always the people use the the phrase ecosystem to talk about in business as a metaphor. But I think it's actually a pretty good metaphor. It's one of the business jargon things that I like to say. We have to just because I mean maybe it's because I I have environmental studies degree As an UNDERGRAD. And like when you look at how nature you know and ecosystems function they get out of balance and then you know lots of rabbits style. Because there's not enough you know there's there's this like the Seren- getty well I mean you if you have a huge imbalance where there's too many predators prey or there's too much that students that things start to start to to to shake out and when you look at the media ecosystem there's a imbalance towards the platforms and distributors having all the prophets all the leverage calling all the shots. Yeah and you're seeing that the equilibrium star to be restored and it's taking government pressure. It's taking publishers complaining a lot. It's taking Employees at these big tech platforms guilt feeling embarrassed by the content that is being recommended by their algorithms that and going home to their families and saying. Oh it's a bad sign when you need talking points for your employees going home for Christmas. So final thing is is news. I mean the the Ben Smith is is leaving You're still committed to news. Yeah totally why to explain to me? Why News makes even if you personal sort of belief in it like why does it make sense for the business now versus when it started because I feel like when when buzzfeed news started buzzfeed sort of needed a little bit it was like Oh catalysts cycles and stuff like this needed some sort of you know legitimate to be legitimized for the business at the time it just helped? It was a nice halo effect. I don't know if the case is a strong now sears. You're you're you're advocating against buzzfeed news. I'm not advocating against it. I'm I'M A neutral observer but I'm I'm I'm asking you any why it's important for the business. We'll talk to the point. We were just talking about think. There is a model for news. Where as a as a lot of news organisations move behind pay walls and a lot of the public gets their news from facebook from Youtube from these free. Open social platforms. You're going to have another in. You already have another imbalance in the ecosystem where there's all this quality news that is subscription based but all this news consumption happening elsewhere and that creates a huge vacuum where there needs to be quality journalism that is freely available at mass scale. Yes which is why. Facebook is pain some publications for for content and for journalism. And I think you may see a model where you know. Buzzfeed News as a Premier Digital News Organization can do important journalism that then can exist on five or six different platforms at all partially cover. The cost of the journalism. But you see a path for this to be a profitable part of the business or will forever be sort of a loss leader We'll look by like earlier. I said that buzzfeed's media network generates about one hundred fifty million in revenue last year. About one hundred fifty million in revenue and cost less than that to produce all the content that includes news. Sure so already if you look at Buzzfeed's media network it is better than break-even Before we add in it would probably be more profitable than without news. I would guess yeah. That's true that's true but it it. News is something that adds a lot of of Halo and credibility. It drives more repeat viewers. There's times when when the only thing that people really care about is news. It enhances the BUZZFEED DOT COM product Where people are coming to Buzzfeed for fun entertaining content but when there is big news happening in the world having that news organization able to provide content there is important so it has a lot of benefits in terms of our relationship with platforms relationship with our audience our position in the marketplace And we're able to do it in a way that we're buzzfeed as a whole can be profitable and so- buzzfeed as a whole will be profitable this year. We tip over in profitability. The back half of last year And so if we can run a profitable. Global Media Company at scale You know having a news. Division that is strong and contribute says huge amount to the company to close it down. This is the thing whenever you whenever you whenever the people who are most skeptical. That news are often people in the news industry. You know journalists and people were. There's a there's a kind of gallows humor asked him as them because it's been it hasn't been brutal in the news. Industry and so many journalists have lost their jobs and managing costs has been it has been a brutal thing for a lot of of of of companies But News News is really important and I think when you see an imbalance in an ecosystem where where subscription is becoming The model that lots of quality journalists quality news organizations are using but the public is still getting their news from these free platforms. You have to fix that imbalance. And when you are providing something that is desperately needed by the public and by the audience and by You know the marketplace it will be a good business eventually in the business model is I mean. Obviously it's in in the worse when it comes to news overall because I get what you're saying when you know the New York Times and and all these other you know very Marquee publications behind pay walls. And then you've got the pope endorses trump non news that's on facebook and other platforms. There's a question about what's going to be freely available but I wonder like I guess my question is then what is the model. Look like. It's like okay. Some payments directly from the platforms. The programmatic advertising will do some. Advertising is is is part of it payments and syndication fees as part of it. Okay so you see a pathway then for this to profitable ish yeah it doesn't even need to be profitable. It can be close to. It can be close to break even lose a little bit of money and Buzzfeed as a whole can be can be nicely profitable right. You don't have to close down plus okay. Thanks so much thank you. Thank you for listening. Hope you enjoyed. This conversation. Had Vicente we will be back next week with a new episode in the meantime please do you like to have this. Supposedly it helps this podcast scoured. And if you really liked it. Share some of the some of the nicest ones with him back next week.