John Brenkus, Producer, Director, TV Personality
When I feel like one of my strengths is making something out of nothing. So that that I see down there is actually it's it's actually there the trees there the water is there. I just need to keep running after it in when you feel like you're never gonna get there. I'm like, I'm so stubborn, and I'm so I believe in myself, I believe in my 'cause I believe in out get there. I don't know how long it's gonna take me. I don't know how many twists and turns. But I'm going to that water exists. Welcome back or welcome to the finding Masri podcast. I am Michael javale in by trade and training a sport performance psychologist as well as the co founder of compete to create in a love free to go. Check out some of the work that we're doing over there. It's been a blast and the whole idea behind the conversations in this podcast is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery to better understand what they're searching for what they Akef for what they're craving. We want to understand what how they're making sense of their world events in the world themselves in people, and we also want to understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft okays, you probably know by now we've partnered with the team at athletic greens, primarily because a love the product so much in taking whole food supplements for a long time they have a dialed in. They've got it nailed and one thing I've noticed after taking their product is that a just feel great after I've had a glass especia-. For saying the morning knowing that I'm getting a strong dose of quality superfoods and veggies in. It's just a great way to get the day going and the number one recommended top of the list way to take athletic greens for optimize impact on health and energy performance. All the good stuff that they're trying to sort out. 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And if you haven't yet, please take a second subscribe to our weekly Email newsletter, I'm including transcripts from this week's podcast in favor articles that I'm reading and the good stuff that I'm paying attention to online, and you can subscribe at finding mastery dot net slash newsletter. And if you haven't done this yet, I want to also encourage you to punch over to the finding mastery tribe, and it's a community. It's amazing in. There's just thousands of people supporting challenging each other on the path of mastery is great. I can't believe that what you guys have done to build that. So I love being part of it witnessing it watching it and jumping in there with you in. We'd love you to be part of it as well. So if you can join head over to finding mastery dot net forward slash tribe. Now this week's conversation. Is with John Branca's in you, probably heard his name. If you're in the sport world, he spent the last decade plus studying in popularizing, the unique characteristics of the world's greatest athletes. So behind the scenes where you might not know his work. He's the co founder of base productions, but he's best known for his on air host and co creator of the ESPN EMMY award winning show called sports science and he's appeared in produced in over fifteen hundred segments. That's that's an enormous catalogue and those segments have been featured on ABC ESPN's enormous sport platforms. So through sports signs. The show John has appeared before over eighty million people annually for the last decade. That's that's that's a big time imprint and so he's won six Emmys written a New York Times bestseller for the perfection points where he really takes a look at where. Human potential was a convergence of Yuban potential from where we might be able to go, and where we are now and in that vein when he's got an idea he just goes for you just flat out puts it on the line in it makes sense as we dig into this conversation that his philosophy is perfectly aligned with the extraordinary success. He's had. And so his philosophy is to make something out of nothing in. It's basically been a backbone for how he's created what he's created in the sport and television world, so in this conversation, we discuss what gives him the confidence to go forward into not let fear of failure fear of what other people think of him to get in the way of him pursuing his dreams, and I love this conversation. I love how his mind works. What he's created of lobbying a friend with John. And so this is not just about sport by any means, it's not about human potential. It's about the practices and the organization of thoughts to help. Him away you now become your very best. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with John Branca's, John. How are you? I'm incredible. Like, I I'm just awesome today. I feel great in. That's just kinda how I roll I roll out of bed, and I feel awesome. How long has that been the case for you? Is that is that a lifelong thing or is this since you've done a credible things in the in in the industry? This is how I roll. I mean, it to be honest with you to struggle to get me out of bed. But once a mount in a mom, my two feet and great, and I and I use that word specifically where incredible I'm alive on breathing. Ready to conquer the day. Like, that's that is how it when? Everyone's like, do you feel? I'm like awesome. Incredible amazing. If I've been sick, I'll say, I don't feel so well, so but unhealthy, and I feel great does. That mean, your is it your body is it your emotional self is at your mental self is that your spiritual like when you say, I'm great, how do you slice stuff or how do you think about I slice at most? Spiritually like, I I'm spiritually in a great place today. Like him spiritually I feel good in by spiritually. I mean, I feel centered I feel in touch with the universe. And I feel like I've got a purpose today. Like, I know what I'm doing. I'm I have a plan for today. It won't go as planned and I'm ready to Bob in. We've okay. So spiritual were diving right into the to the heavy rocks. Absolutely. So the spiritual stuff is that purpose. Okay. You put those two in the same in the same. I are they the same or different for you between spiritual on purpose. So you talk about being spiritually centered. And then having purpose I believe that. We separate them. And we say, you can be spiritual. But with no purpose, and you can be purposeful without any spirit. Right. So to me the need to be fused together. And when I wake up I do fuse. The first thing that I do is pray wake up. I kneel down. I pray and I pray and I set an intention for the day. And I'm like, here's what's going to go on. I pray. I do my best. I really feel as though I am capable of doing that. And I believe that my purpose today is to perpetuate positive energy. So whatever that that task is that I'm doing my purpose is to perpetuate positive energy. And I do pray for the strength that that that happens. What pulls you out of that pulls me out of media trading positive energy? What pulls you away from that myself thought loops, you know, I pull myself out of it. I'll pull myself out of the game. I like to. Call it where I'll have a negative thought loop, and I'm such an A type personality. I'm so go go go go, go Lizzy. My wife calls me, Johnny one-speed. I'm like go. Go go go go, go stop. And where I where I will get off center is purely self inflicted. It's complete. I'm such a high strung individual. I'm so like we're going to do this. I will get a thought in my head that were on my oh my God. I can't get this out of my head. And I can't get out of my head. It's like having the hips when when you're putting you just can't get it out of your head in that happens in I have really intentionally especially in forty six. Now, I really tried to identify thought loops and say while this is an unhealthy thought loop in. I am putting too much emphasis on the negative outcome than the positive outcome. They're both equally. Likely to happen. And I've got to get out of that. And that's it. You know, I think that's going to be a lifelong. I think it's a lifelong struggle for everybody'll be lifelong struggle for me, but it's happening less and less. So I feel you know, each day each week each month two year, I make progress on getting out of those negative thought loose in for you. Are those loops about doubt is it about self? Critique there's only a couple of teams that come up. Right. Is it like or is it anxiousness? I'm not sure if it's gonna work out the loop released centers around really things that are out of my control the behavior of somebody else. That's where I get hung up on a loop there. Unfortunately, especially in the business that I've worked in. I mean, there are some obviously amazing incredible people that work with people I really love to work with. And then there are just you feel like you're walking through a minefield. And you're like those minds are people in those people could really throw a wrench in things in that. That's where the loops happened is my extrapolation of what could happen. If this person gets in the way, and is going to do this which leads to that which leads to let so I just had this conversation today as we were getting as driving to connect with you. My wife made that comment. She said, you know, there's people that purposely get in the way of other people's success. And I go come on like in. She goes, Mike, please. And you're you're saying the same thing. And I know that my rational head says, yes, there are bad evil disruptive people that, you know, but you're saying you're picking up on that same idea. Absolutely. In one thing that I have been that. I would say a strength is my ability to extrapolate. So I'll say I'm able to look at a landscape and say, here's what I think's gonna happen. And I been when I say, I'm right more than I'm wrong. And of course, you remember the things that you right more than you're wrong and good bias. Right. So I know that oh, I'm biased. But when I sit back, and I go, here's what's going to happen. This person's gonna talk to that person in that person's gonna flip out then they're going to go talk to this person. And the game of telephone is going to happen. And what happened in the origination of the conversation will be so completely out of wack that we're having completely different argument than we would have if we adjust nipped in the bud and had never. Happened to begin with like like more often than not. I'm like, I'm correct on on on seeing. What's going to happen? What I've come to realize is that. Yeah. I can extrapolate that out, but I need to be more comfortable with realizing. It's okay that that happens rather than being worried that man Bahira goes again, I need to be more bringing on I've seen in a million times. Okay. What you're ahead of the game in the US figuring out. What sport signs was in? So sports science has been around for a long time. And when I say long, I'm talking about sixty years and the idea that the Russians and Germans were doing some heavy stuff science long ago. Okay. But the American influence. Was late right. You started a show called sport science on ESPN started on FOX started on FOX. Okay. When you think of your craft what is your craft? It's an awesome question. And. I'm going to tell you what I believe my craft actually is my craft is making something out of nothing that is what my craft is. I am the kind of person that loves to say why not and when we made sports signs my business partner. Who's also my brother-in-law. He and I sat back, and we were in the right place at the right time doing the right thing, we had we had literally our production company had a sports background in science background. And when we put it together. I mean how boring of title sports science. I mean when we sold it to FOX they're like, we got to change the name. And I insisted that we keep the name because although sports science existed that term was it really wasn't part of our lexicon in even two thousand six people weren't referring to all the time. It wasn't something that was at people's fingertip, even though. Obviously existed way before we even thought of the show. But I might not think it's I I can't think of anything else that's on television. That's as that's like it, so call it. What it is. I'm like survivor what agree title, call it. What it is. I'm like, it's you can try to come up with some fancy name. That's nuanced. But if you're direct and just tell the audience, this is what you're going to get. Then when they arrive if they're entertained and educated at the same time, they're going to stay. And then all the sudden that those words sports signs are cool. It's not nerdy. Geeky scientists, entertaining and occasional. So it was very deliberate in terms of sitting back and saying we're just at that, you know, in two thousand six there were hardly hardly anything. You could buy off the shelf to measure anything fashioning around sensors piecing things together in a really would like to think that obviously we didn't create. Eight this space, but we played a part in popularizing in making it known in people in using it in lexicon, more and more, you know, for sure, and it is something that is obviously your fingers on the pulse. Appro sports and even NCW collegiate sports like sports science. It's been in your European models for longtime, but in the US, it's just past the beginnings, you know, just past the beginnings like still in adolescents, but you've definitely had an influence in you know, the the lexicon having meaning. Okay. And then before that, this is what I I was attracted to your work fight science was was a show that you produced this. And so when you say you're Kraft, I want to talk about five signs invents in a minute. But you said your craft is building something from nothing. Yes. Okay. And that something when you say nothing, do you mean like the resources are barren or the ideas are barren? I'd like to say it's a blank canvas is it's just a blank canvas. What show are you going to do next? What what are you as a person? What are you gonna do next? It's just as blank canvas and fight signs came from another show that was called. Exa may that was on the Discovery Channel. And it was kind of a it was kind of fight science light. But it did very well on the Discovery Channel. And when we had to reinvent it and start to make something it was again, my my partner, and I sat down we said, you know, it'd be really cool is if we took the science aspect and blew it out just like went to the max in that was if we get the world's greatest martial artists to come in punching kick the crap out of a crash test, dummy, I mean, it's not even built to to do that. How do we modify and give people in image that they haven't? Even imagined in their heads. That's building something on nothing that sane God. Let's let's do something. You have not seen before. That's what I'd like to do. And that's what I in in terms of being creative and just even in daily life. I like to say it's a blank canvas. And I'm gonna make something on nothing so dance your question. I think it's I think it's kind of it's I don't think it's that the ideas. It's like oh. And nothing idea. It's that it doesn't exist in the world right now. Okay. So. What I was hoping that you take the conversation to where do your ideas come from which was really tough question. And I don't expect to have a full answer on it. Because it's probably one of the hard questions for humans where two thoughts and ideas originator happen at how does that work? So, but for you, if you take a pass at it, you've had a disruptive you've been disruptive agent in television. This the space between science and sport and action in entertainment. So where did maybe we can be more granular where did the ideas for fight science? Come from. It came from. It really was marrying. The two skill sets that we had developed in producing sports in producing science. I mean, literally that come from the gonna take sport in science and put those two together to that originated with the show XM extreme martial arts. Sweet as a production company, we had the contracts for the Washington Wizards in Washington Capitals, and we're doing all of their sports production than we got a bunch of other teams as well. So we have this expertise in producing sports content. Then the Discovery Channel was launching the science channel. And we did the first live interactive science programs called science live. We did the young scientists challenge. We did a bunch of shows that were all just purely science-based shows my partner, and I were like, wow, you know, would be really cool is to combine these two things. And there was a conversation that my partner had with the GM of discovery at the time, and he was talking about how you know. All these great masters of. Martial arts or fading away. And we need to somehow preserve in honoring in then we Mickey my partner, and I sat down, and he said, you don't this would be a perfect application of taking a scientific look at what the masters were able to do. And that's where we were like, oh, we could do this. It had never been an idea until someone's like we need honor these martial arts masters, and like you can offer it through science and say, well, what did they do? What made them a master whip start? We'll what differentiated a style that. That was really the beginning of it. And then fight science took it to a whole their level where we're like now, which style generates more force. And why what is it mean? What is it Connecticut linking chain mean? And where is the energy being drawn in? Where is the weakness in the style in terms of generating force through the end of your fingers or the end of your. Toes like where would the blocking occur you start getting really granular into it? And I'm like, this is some fascinating stuff that I haven't seen broke down before. So one that door opens that will, you know, what was interesting you. It was in the laboratory, which I'm sure that either you or your brother in law. I'm not sure which one had the the sports science background influence. It was really it. Really? Honestly was both of us in. He and I were he's, you know, I'm a science geeky disci- Gagan were both sports nuts. He was a great combination. All that stuff was happening in the laboratory, you know. And I don't know if enough people that might be listening know, what a Connecticut chain is. So can you walk them through share? That's pretty simple. I mean, it's pretty simple. You think about it as the perfect kinetic chain would be a whip. Write your hand is the fulcrum in your flicking the whip forward, you're stopping your hand all the energy is being transferred to the end of the whip. It's a perfect transfer of energy because the tip of the whip when it cracks is actually breaking the sound. And barrier. That's how that's what the sound is actually breaking breaking thunder. So a Connecticut leaking chain. If you think about a punch the energy is created from the ground just like a wit. It goes up through your legs and through your hips, and your torso and your shoulder and ultimately down through your hand. But it's it's a chain. And when you look at someone and say how can they throw a ball so hard in there the same size as I am. And I can't throw at that hard. It's because there are points in your Connectik chain where the energy is being blocked, and it's as simple as that. But when you start diving deep into finding these little tweaks in a motion as to how you can unblock it or reduce the amount that it's being blocked. It's amazing. How performance can be increased. Okay. Quick break to talk about our new partner. Will that's W H O O P will I wanna talk about travel for minute the effects of early morning or late night. Apple they can have a lasting impact on concentration and mood and sleep and appetite in. There is some research that for every time that we travel that it takes about a day to catch up. So knowing the effects that jetlag and time zones have on our performance is really important, and we was taking a deep dive into the effects travel has on readiness, and that's one of the benefits that I've really enjoyed about. Who is them providing data to help manage for me, sleep? Antifa. Better understanding of the facts that travels having on me. So if you travel, this is a great tool and instrument, and if you don't travel to have a better understanding of how stress and strain, and you know, just plano get after it in life. Whether that's, you know, working really hard late hours or compromise with some sleep here. And there like how does that impact your readiness to perform, and if you haven't tried out there technology yet, they just create an amazing offer for finding mastery listeners. One encourage you to check it out your first month is now free when you sign up at. Whoop dot com Ford slash finding mastery. So you've got gotta use the code finding mastery. All one word all caps at swoop W, H O P dot com forward slash finding mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. So what are couple insights that you've had you know, what have some of the best done. What I see is. Most importantly there is no one right answer. I wrote a book called the perfection point was you know, that anybody can find it was New York Times bestseller about what is the best. We can do as a human being the fastest. We can run the hardest. We can throw a ball highest. We could jump, but we sit back and look at the best and you put them under a microscope. You realize we're never we can't reach perfection. So all we can do is do the best with what we have. And that definition of what we have started a very early age. How do you throw a ball when you're three and that when people say, it's muscle memory. There's no such thing as muscle memory. Must muscles. Don't have memory, right. It's just neural pathways that have been burned. It's more neural memory in terms of a physical motion. But the best of the best make. Most of what they have. And they're cool with that. But they're not satisfied. They're like, well, how do I get better without reinventing the wheel? How do I get better with what I actually have in that desire to get better? And that realizing this is what I got is really what the best identified. They don't say. Well, here's where I am stop. They're like, here's where I am. How do I get better? But I can't reinvent the wheel. Okay. And then you've also taken a look at swats of data and just before the mikes turned on you're talking about running backs. And so that's a fascinating finding that. You have the walk us through that show people like to say bigger, stronger faster is better. If I say don't be fooled by that. I mean, obviously if you're running a hundred yard dash or one hundred meter dash, obviously, you have to be the fastest like, so we can but that's not the analogy for life. I like to say this analogy for life in football's a great analogy for life in the position of running back as a great analogy specifically because people if you're just sit back, and you're the GM of a team, and you go who do I want running the ball instinctively? We would say I want the fastest guy in the field. Like, that's an interesting idea the fastest or someone will say Ellen. Biggest I want the guy. Nobody can tack Bill, but belco. Yeah, I wanted to absolutely that's what I want. But I say, but if you want to running back. It's going to be around in his versatile, and it's gonna have a long career with you and help build your team in your franchise. You actually want someone who's big enough fast enough, but not the biggest fastest. If f equals M A forces mass, tons acceleration. The bigger you are the greater the force you experience. So when people say all that big running backs gonna run over that safety. He's experiencing the same amount of forces the safety is to object that collide basic Newtonian physics experienced the same amount of force. So the bigger you are the more force you experience every single time on the flip side of that faster. You are the more force you actually, experienced. So we look at who has the top five running backs of all time by yards gained. None of them are over six feet. They're not that big right there. I mean, you look at Emmett Smith look at Walter Payton, Barry Sanders LT. Look at Curtis Martin. None of these guys over six feet tall. Then you say. Well, how big would they were beast? There are beast. I'm like Walter Payton was barely two hundred pounds. Like, he's not that big there. And then they say, why would them be super fast? Actually when you look back at it Emmitt Smith. Bye, no matter what standard you use was considered a slower running back. So how is he so good because he if the if you just think about it basic physics the slower on moving the easier, it is for me to change direction the lighter. I am the less foresight experience when I go to the ground. So Emmett Smith is that perfect running back, and when people are you calling Emmett Smith slow, not not relative to the human population. But relative to guys who are super fast, and here's another crazy stat. So this ad is true. And it's if you look at the ten fastest forty yard dash times on the offense of side of the ball based on NFL combine. Electronic timing of the top ten. To have the thousand yards within a season the other eight don't have a thousand yards in their careers. Whoa. That just tells you when people go you can't teach speed like, right? Well, if you line up, and you see a guy just blazing the forty. There's an eighty percent chance they they're not going to be an NFL star. And when people go that's not true, go look it up. It's true and go look in. Everyone's like, Mike. I know for fact, my favorite player ran up four three. I'm like he ran a four six. So you like, let's not just get hung up. And that's it's hard for people to realize don't get hung up on the numbers. I love that in. You know, the Malcolm glad will for what it's worth had that interesting finding that. If you're born in the first three months of the year, then you're more likely to become a pro hockey player. Okay. Okay. So we can get lost in some of that. There's a yes. In a note to that. Okay. But I I love when data tells the story I really enjoy that. And so eighty percent chance that if you're the fastest one of the top ten in the combine you're not gonna not gonna. You're not going to even have a thousand yards in your career. And is that because injury is in its injury rate. The only way to be that fast is to have to use your power to weight ratio has to be one where your muscles are able to propel your frame so fast that you're able to achieve a time that others can't she frame. Can't be that big. You know, it's like Ferraris running into Cadillacs, you it's like over time maybe on a Cadillac if we're going to do it like a some derby. We look at Chris Johnson. And look Chris Johnson was a great running back first season or two, right? Is he going to go down as one of the greatest running backs of all time is he going to the hall of fame. You're like he had a great season. What do you think Zeke, Elliot? So I think he's the he's the Goldilocks zone, man. He's in we had him in the lab. He's in that. Perfect strata. Yeah. Yeah. He's got that built. Yep. He's got the is the perfect prototype to be somebody who could be around for a really long time. A new you're friends with marshawn Lynch cheer, and he's outside of that that typical design he was an incredible player. And I think if you were just looking at data take personality out of it. If you're just looking at data, you would say historic makes sense because he's large he's Lawrence wide. Do you wanna know? What's really interesting is like the that. I really love peak carols analysis, and we actually did analysis on you know, the famous the infamous pick that that Russel through on the goal line against the patriots was like you just give the ball the marshawn Lynch the odds, actually, the statistics say, they actually aren't that. Good because everybody knows he's getting the ball. And he can't get the one yard jet. Not because of his ability because everybody knows he's going to get the ball. So it's better to throw a short pass than handed off statistic. Weekly speaking, a motionlessly, everyone will say forever. How did you not give the ball marshawn Lynch? You know? It's a love that you did that analysis and I saw it. And it's easy that you would bring that up now. Because like, you know, it's like okay mic like statistically aboard out. Like, you know, like, yeah, I'll tell you being in that stadium. Was there to a were you there? Oh, yeah. Okay. There wasn't a person in there less. Maybe a couple of coaches on you know, on our side that didn't think that marshawn was going to get the ball. Right. I mean, the whole crowd was like just handed to marshawn not knowing that. We're one for five on the goal line with marshawn that year. That's not very good. And if they brought out their big the big largest men in the building they brought them out the stop the run it was beautifully designed to put a pass in the on the goal line or up in the corner. And it just unfortunately, you know, it didn't pan out fully so and but. It didn't work without being in that stadium. I've never been at a sporting event where something gigantic happened in. I will say that it was outside of the collective crowds imagination the reaction within the stadium was so delayed. It was not you know, Butler makes the interception in everybody. Immediately Leno my God, it was like everyone's asking each other. What what he didn't do that didn't just happen, right? It was so delayed. I've never I've never fell a whole stadium. Just say why it was like beyond our imagination in that. That's the trap actually for. I think most people in intensive environment. Is that our mind wants to figure it out? So we get ahead of ourselves. The stadium will how many people were not stadium ninety thousand nine. What is the was maybe a hundred thousand Arizona is a big state. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was a big. I don't know what the whole, but the say ninety thousand bail hold a lot of people. And so that ninety thousand we got ahead of ourselves. Right. And I'm sure there was some that were not all they're still more play, of course. And most people's minds wanna get ahead of themselves to try to predict safety or no hostility, or whatever, right and happens in subtle ways in social settings. But that's really part of what our brain is designed to do. And most people got ahead of themselves celebrating on the sidelines rating in the stands like, oh my God. Can you believe that the Seahawks are back at this position? Of course, they're gonna win all my God is just a handle. And then the pain that came with. It's almost like walking down walking down your stairs seeing the Christmas tree. You're seven years old. You see the shape of the box that you've been wanting in hoping for its wrapped, just right? And you know, that it's the thing that you've been wanting and you open it up, and it's. Not the thing. It's a thing that looks like the thing. But it's not the thing. And that's like in you do remember that look like or feeling like, absolutely. And it kind of goes back to what I'm what I was saying about extrapolating, right? You extrapolate in went you had a whole. I mean, you you had hundred million people who are extrapolating at that moment. Think of the courage. It took to say now we should pass it right now. This is when you point to a guy like p Carroll who you know inside and out, and you say how's that guy? Such an amazing coach does he freak out to sea panic under pressure is he a guy. That's like. Oh my God. I'm nervous. Not sure what to do. Where is he more like someone in the in the special forces? He more like a navy seal when things are going crazy. I can I can see I can the chaos is going on. But I can I see an opportunity here. I'm not gonna jump to a conclusion in a make. I'm gonna make a decision I can make it. I don't have to be a robot. But I can make a rational decision when things are going crazy. And at that moment, the courage to make that call people will look back and say, it's the worst call in history. But statistically, it's should work. And we talked to Malcolm Butler and think about this so Butler as we all know certainly wasn't the star of the patriots defense. This is the defensive back who stole the ball or intercepted the ball from Russell on the Golan. Right. When we talked to him and said why how'd you jump that route? He said in literally in practice the week before leading up to it. He got burned on that exact play. And coach Bela Chac, let him know that will never happen. And he just said as soon as I saw that play. I just jumped it now, it could imagine this imagine if he hadn't made that mistake in practice. I mean, imagine if it hadn't sunk in that own my gut he was. Wasn't a star. He wasn't. He didn't have the ten million dollar contract. He's like, oh my God. I got cookeville. Check mad at me about this one thing. That's now stuck in my mind in I'm in a position where I sense. That's the thing. He got mad at me for. So I better jump it. And he didn't have the ability or he had the ability not get frozen in that fear that he was out by his coach the head coach. Right. And he didn't freeze their like, it's extrordinary how this all went down in the butterfly effect of why do they even practice that in all of these sequences that took place, and I've never told the story. I'm gonna tell you the story. I think it's fun is that so my wife is there and afterwards. You know, we huddled back up in. It was like all right. How was that? Like because it was intense and locker of the most intense emotions that I've ever felt in one southern sure right? It was everything related to grief that you would imagine. There was. Denial. There was searching inuring. There was anger. There was sad. There was times time right alpha males in locker. Okay. Feeling a lot. So afterwards. I connect with my wife, and she goes I missed. No. She was in stance as we mean, you missed it. She goes our son was like five at the time. He added to the bathroom. So she thought to herself. Oh my goodness. Okay. And she said, you know, buddy. Can you hold it? And he's like no really have to go. Okay. So he doesn't really care about the game. You know, little five year old. He's got to go to the bathroom. So she has a quick moment to herself while we're on the one yard line. Okay. And let's make a beeline. Maybe we can you know, maybe this time out or something. So she goes to the bathroom, and then she hears the crowd, just kinda go crazy. But a weird crazy to your point rent. And so she looks up and she sees in. No, she she listens. And she his it's been an interception like someone on the loudspeaker are interested in. So she goes. Oh, no. And my five year old says what happened and she says Seahawks lost, and he paused, and he said, this brilliant. He said what a shame. Mommy. They all worked so hard. To bring him down to the locker room the innocence that worked so hard which is true best in the world work, really, really hard. What did you find out from a recovery standpoint from a recovery from Claire show? No from sports science in terms of recovery of an athlete resilience, mentally or physically either both are fascinated show. Here's what's fascinating is that genuinely the best will take any event. No matter how big or small and put it tuck it away in a spot that provides them with that little bit that extra motivation. Right. Jordan would take a slight. And remember it and say I'm filing that one away right tiger. We'd be like I I heard what you said about me. I got that right in my head. I know what you wrote about me. I got that in my head there. When people say, oh, I don't read the media and whatever complete lie, right? They know it's out there and they use it as fuel. That's. A little bit different that about people who are great at athletics or anything else is that they can take something that's negative in use it as a driving force. And I have I have a great story. I actually have never have never told anybody this. This is I've never actually never told anybody in this. Similar to Nath lights so early in our development as a production company. We had an investor that was interested in buying the company, and we sat down, and we discussed what we thought our company was worth and the investor. Laughed at what he thought we were worth. And he said, you're just delusional and my partner, and I this is this way before sports signs said delusional and on almost a daily basis. It'd be like, hey, let's let the two of us who are delusional go make something happen. And we would use that as this fuel rather than you know, what if you were to make a bet he probably was right that we were delusional in that it wasn't going to work out because most companies don't work out, but we made it work out. 'cause we had little voice in the back of our head of like oh delusional. And I remember being on the set especially of exa may where we had to build this huge giant elaborate set and literally making I like look at how delusional we are. We use that word stuck with us. I mean, use it as such motivation. Yeah. So chip Bizet. Yeah. It was a chip that. Thank god. He said it, right? Then you say to yourself what if he hadn't said that as right, right? What if he hadn't essentially insulted us? I mean, it was a huge insult. So you're delusional. It's like that. I it. It's the dismissive nece. What about your history allowed you to use that rather than it use you because that can happen quickly and easily in its momentarily, the we don't have an understanding of the poor snus porous -ness of the human mind. But right, sometimes things come in. And sometimes they don't right. And there's certainly things that you've had in your life that somebody has said to you, and it's gone in. And it's Fessard, and you've watered it, and it's grown in. It's not good. It's not it's a weed. Right. And this was it had the potential to be we'd but it didn't make it in. Can you can you unpack that just a little bit? Like how what about your history allowed you to use something for good? For a moment when we were told that we were delusional at that moment, the company wasn't that big? We weren't a huge force, you know, in in the industry at all, right? We we hadn't created sports. Ian's hadn't created exa may or or or fines or anything, and we sort of sat back. And both of us were like being called delusion. Like, they're very very few things that you could be called that are more insulting to someone. Who's created like saying delusion, I'm like into me? I'm such a fanatic about words. I'm so specific about the words news. I'm like delusional. How could you have used that in a non insulting way you meant that as an insult? That means that your saying, I am delusional. Meaning what I see happening is just a Mirage. And I knew I always knew within myself. I'm like what I'm when I feel like one of my strengths is making something at a nothing. So that is that I see down there is actually it's it's actually there the trees there the water is there. I just need to keep running after it in when you feel like you're never gonna get there. I'm like. I'm so stubborn, and I'm so I believe in myself, I believe in my 'cause I believe in I'll get there. I don't know how long it's gonna take me. I don't know how many twists and turns. But I'm gonna that water exists. All right. So that's a good point here for a little quick break to talk about our new partner halo neuro science. The underlying technology is trans cranial direct current stimulation T D C S as it's known by. And it's been around for a while. It's been researched for at least about fifteen years and their product is used by many world class athletes right now US Olympic teams players in the NFL NBA in PG tour. Lots in what's really cool about that? Is that it's a product that is on the leading edge and some of the best in the world are working to understand how it can help create a competitive advantage for learning for them. And it's not reserved for just elite, athletes, and all ideas you wear halo sport for about twenty minutes. And that's a best practice in you do that before your training session. 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And they're offering a special deal for us for funding Masri listeners one hundred dollars off when you purchase using that link. So mixture used that link. It helps us it helps our business that helps their business and hopefully it helps prime your brain. To be more switched on to learn more effectively art so with that let us jump right back into our conversation. Your talent your craft is something from nothing is something from nothing, which is for many delusion a delusion of grandeur, even right? It's the Mirage that that you are looking at. But maybe you shouldn't be looking at right like your. It's the Mirage that you're seeing that might not be real does that more accurate. And so when he said that it was actually confirmation of your craft. He just couldn't see what you were seeing from nothing hundred percent. Okay. Totally get that. And really important as a takeaway to be very clear about what makes X person special. What makes you special is this, right? The ability to craft something from nothing, and that's probably something that you said to yourself over and over again, it was a belief. You had okay. Then he. Confirmed. That's all that was that was really nice. Thank you, very lot of reasons. Right. And you had fun with it. And all that good stuff. What gives you the right to believe that you can do something special? I think that's a great question. A lot in. I'm just gonna slightly rephrase it, and I'm gonna I'm gonna change the word special to great. What makes me believe that? I can do something. That's great cool. Right. I think that I think that they're synonymous in this case, the reason why I believe it because I think everybody can I believe that you're racing with everyone who's capable of being great. Now, there's that old phrase of everybody wants to be great until they realized what it takes to be great. Are you willing to keep going? Are you willing are you? So I like to use the word stubborn because I think it's actually a powerful words stubborn means you don't know any better. You're so stubborn. You're just set in your ways, and you're not willing to look outside. But when you're trying to achieve something it is so easy to analytically determine this isn't possible. It's super easy to prove that, but you have to look beyond that and say, you know, what I think the numbers are actually wrong in. I think that I can overcome that or the margin is so slim, I think I can do that in the reason I think I can do that in which if I would say making something out of nothing is a strength. But that's something has to be good. Right. It's got to be something. That's good. And when I use the word great something can't be great unless it's good enough to be considered. Great. And what I have never gotten hung up on. Is there? Some people who feel like the painting is never done. The song is never done. Like, it's never complete in my mind. I'm like I'm gonna put a ball into play in on completely comfortable because I know it's good enough to be considered good now. Is it going to be great time will tell I don't know. Maybe will that song that when you hear? All these stories of people that are right songs in two minutes, then become the classics. They did know that that was going to be their big hit. They wrote in there like get it's good. It's good enough to be good. So I'm done with it. And I'm gonna put it down it became great over time. So if I were to say sports science, I think that we can sit back in a career and I'm saying in an objective way. You know, what that was a great idea? But it wasn't great out of the box. It was something that time had to happen. You know season after season show after show had to keep occurring and you had to keep honing that craft. So that it could become great, and you can sit back and say, yeah, it's great now when I say, oh, you know, what I think it's great. That's very biased point of view because I was involved with it in a turned out to be successful fed other things that have been successful where I stand back, and I'll give you a great example first movie, I made out of college got great reviews. Distributional Bubba, blah. I won't. Watch it because I know it's it's not good. It's just not good too. I don't think it's good. But other people might think it's good or great. But I don't know that that doesn't that's not what I'm going. I'm going for is more. It's gotta be good enough to be good. And then greatness will happen in time inside of that model when you make a mistake when you do something that is very average or below average. And it turns into something that is a cluster. How do you make sense of it like how do you deal with a mistake or something that is like really not very talented not skilled enough? I try to be brutally honest with myself. And I think. Abandoning an idea is a hard thing. It's a hard thing for me to do. But I'm willing to do it. And I'm willing to say, you know, what this is just it's on the wrong path. Maybe there's a kernel of something in there that would that is something that could become good. And maybe I need to extract that but the path Amman I needed I needed just abandon this path. Because I know this is I know in if I don't believe in it on never going to be able to create something out of it. Okay. Because that's the opposite of stubborn. So it's like you've got something on the other side of this. So stubborn in idea. And I would call that dogged perseverance like ominous stick with something persevered during the during all the twists and turns and storms and valleys, and I'm gonna stay with it. Because I believe in it. And I'm going to be dogged about it. That's okay. But this is opposite of that. Only in the case. Let's take let's let's examine gutting as a great great way to look at it. How early in the process do you identify? That's not gonna work. Then it I would say I can't even think of adventure where I got weighed on the road in then abandoned it like it happens super early for me where I'm like, you know, what this isn't worth my this, isn't this isn't worth it. Because I now now I don't see it. Okay. So once you get in the boat right in your little bit offshore. You're going. I'm going. Yes. So so the building the boat process setting the navigation before you even said in knowing the terrain knowing the ocean, predictions, whatever like you do all of that analysis. Upfront to be able to say once men, and I get a little off shore. You can give yourself a little room said ou infix fix that whole well enough, right? That's great analogy it's beautiful analogy because the idea of. Abandoning something. Remember, I like I would say one of my strengths extrapolating and you'll wake up you'll be like, oh my God. I just grant idea it's going to be awesome. And then you start in the very early stages of building that boat of Santo cabinet build this boat. We're going to push off the dock and we're going to go. And as you're building it. You're like, no, I don't I don't think vessels actually gonna take. I don't think it see where worthy. It's not going to handle the storm, and I can't see it anymore. So I can't I'm not going to build it. But once it's built like I'm going for in. That's that tell me about your parents. I know it sounds so trite to say, but like what were they like, what do you remember your childhood being like, all right? So that's a very few people have asked me about my family. But this is a really important so important because they literally crafted me, and I had the perfect balance. My parents grew up in a town. Called Harrisburg, Pennsylvania was coal mining town, and it was very antiquated. Even back in that day. It was a coal mining town. You know, it was divided between Russians and polacks. You basically had the Russians on one side polacks on the other. You weren't allowed to intermingle in boat. My parents both of their parents one was polish one was rushing so already they're setting the stage of all right? Will there is this barrier? Put in place we crossed over that barrier. We broke that down, and my mom and dad looked at the landscape and my mother's father. So my grandfather was the only person not only in his family, but in town to get a college degree, and he became the educated guy in town, and he was ostracized. He was abandoned by his family. They're like what you're too good for the coal mines. So my parents looked at this. And they're like, you know, what? There's a lot more to life, and they did not have a master plan. They said Rini to get out of this town, and they moved out of the town in the move down to the DC area. My dad was in the navy. He went to Georgetown, my mom was my mom's been nursing her whole life, and she was in. She she's in the field of they're saying in my father went from Georgetown and got involved in the private sector in. This was the private sector of computing, these new things in the late sixties early seventies. Where my God, they're they're going to be things called computers. They're going to revolutionize the world. He had to make a bowl choice because he was on that private track. He decided you know, what this private track? I'm going to be traveling all the time, and I don't want to do that. So he decided to work for the government. So he could. Be at every baseball practice. So that he could be dad and be around. But it came with a very heavy price tag. He worked for the government for twenty years and would come home in really be quite frustrated, and it was a day, you know, like getting up going to a when I say fairly passionless. It wasn't like his dream. But he got out of the town, and he had a great steady job, and he was able to raise his kit. But his job was not as passion you. Then out of the flip side. You have my mom nursing was her passion. And she loved everything she did. But she was always there for me. And my sister. She was always there. And so no matter what she would make sure that her work. Schedule was one that never conflicted with any of our games with when we left for school when we got home from school. She was there all the time. So you have this ridiculous, -ly nurturing mother. You have a father who is going to do what he has to do in order to be around. But he's not happy with it. So it created this culture where my parents literally looked me in the eye and begged me like when I say beg they said do what ever you want in life, just be happy? I mean, my dad is like just do whatever you want and my mom's like, just do whatever you want dream big. So we lived in Vienna Virginia. And I'm like, I I want to be an entertainment. That's what I wanted to. I don't know anybody. You don't know anybody. And I started was said, I think I have an idea for a movie I wanna make a movie and they're like go for it. How old I was eighteen. And at that time, they said, my parents said whoa back you you don't have to get a job. Why don't you try? To make that movie. Now, this is without start said, I don't even I've never read a screenplay at annoying thing. Batter. Screenplay Longonot, right? It is a book first. Okay. Hold on before you go. Why? Entertainment. What was it about entertaining? What what did you? So did you have a choice to go to school or not school? I don't know if it is. So I went to a great high school is called James Madison high school in Vienna Virginia. And I grew up in a town where if you Vienna. Virginia is like eight miles outside of Washington DC. Everybody's in politics. We're going to small town called Warrenton UK. Yeah. So that's not that far there and so ours was a little bit. Well, it was further removed politics. We didn't have barely had running water. Right. You know? So literally we had no street lights it was out there. But so for being I was always. I was I was just like Kadhamy of had high energy. I was a I was a very good student my whole life. I loved to learn, and I really enjoyed creating things so being in the student government with something that in elementary school as in student government high school on the student government, and I created events, and I created a thing called Mr. Madison that was a male beauty pageant might highschool that I'm like, you know, what before I leave this high school. I want to create something that's gonna last forever. And to this day, it's still exist and they're doing I love this. 'cause if you weren't doing it in entertainment or doing it with sports signs or fight signs or inverse order. You had this interest that you want to create something that stands the test of time. Yes, Anything that's great. Usually will the ages will determine what is great not our peers. Right. The ages will determine that in. So. Where did that come from? I know keep pulling on this. But where did that come from that you want to do something that lasts? I always felt from a very young child. I'm a very spiritual guy. You know, I was born and raised Catholic. I did not go to Catholic school. Because my parents wanted me to go to school with a diverse group. Right. They didn't want just Catholic. They're like now, you're going to go to the public schools in the grade schools in b with a little mix of people. It's great this desire to create something that lasts beyond me. I mean when I tell you what happened from a very young age. I pray morning, noon and night. And I'm I my relationship with God in the universe is one. Where I know. I'm I really am just a speck I'm in insignificant speck in this giant see of the universe. But as a little spec. How can I make sure that the thing that I do is going to leave a Mark that's positive when you're not hearing for me is. Oh, and then I decided to get into this negative thing that you know, yet left a Mark. But it was a really bad thing. I always wanted to create stuff that would leave a positive, Mark. So that at night when I prayed, I could say I did my best today. And that's what I always from a very young child when we sat around the dinner table. And we talk about my parents, creating me we talked about how is your day. And the question was always did you do your best today in was just drilled into me of you didn't have to get an A. He didn't have to get one hundred. You didn't have to be number one in something. But did you do your best? I had the same message, and it was pervasive for me growing up in many ways. It was this incredible gift because there were space lots of space in the other side. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if they would've said, hey, listen. Why don't you stick with the sport? Or why don't you? You're like you've got a natural inclination in this part of your life. I'm glad they didn't. I'm really happy. Right. But I wonder what would how would been different. And so it took me longer probably than you to figure out what stride feels like right? Like I had short steps if we're thinking about efficiency of running I short steps for a long time. And then I had to figure out which drive is. I'm glad I did. Because I really appreciate it. And I feel like in many ways I can recognize when I'm in stride, and I can recognize others that are in stride. And there's a nice syncopation that takes place there because it's our Ganic. I didn't you can't. I don't think you can even use that language if you don't or Ganic learn it, so you figured out your stride earlier at eighteen and then did you go the traditional route of education or you say I'm going to write a book on going to turn that into a screenplay? And I'm gonna just kinda crack it is exactly. Yeah. I did. But to add to that stride. Here's how I think I got my stride from eighteen on. I think I got my stride because for a young kid in. Vienna. Was a pretty good baseball player. And there was you know in little league, I didn't make the all star team. And I remember like how crush wasn't was awful. Oh my God. And then you know in highschool something bad would happen. It'd be the crushing come home. And my parents told me straight up. He just said life isn't fair like you just have to accept the fact it's not fair. So don't try to don't try to take these things that are unfair and somehow blame yourself and be hung up on it just know as you move along tons of unfair things are going to happen. Those are the rules of the game. So do when you want and be cool with the unfairness that's going to happen because they're going to be roadblocks thrown up. So when I decided in college, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna writer. Book. I mean, it literally this came from. I did an independence. I was going to drop out of college. And my mom who is in education when she was running the nursing department at George Mason. She said I'll they were totally cool with me dropping out because I'm like, I know what I wanna do. And I don't think college is getting there. She just said what's your plan? And that's where the conversation was I want to be an entertainment. I don't think colleges can do it. For me. The dean of my colleagues had make up your own classes, do independent studies and create your own major because you're here, and you don't have a plan. So I stayed at college. And I did this independent study was Steven Soderbergh. And he said do everything yourself and just learning yourself. Don't depend on anybody else. Who is Steven Soderbergh? Will he's not the Oscar award winning Soderbergh. So not sit Aberg, right? Well, you can prosper flies. Okada Virk Soderbergh tomato tomato. He that was your mentor yet come on in college. Come true. They see what was he doing there? He would live there. He lived in Charlottesville. And when I decided that I was going to drop out of college. I said, you know, I'm going to drop out. I just think I don't think this is for me the guy that was running the he was the head of the Virginia independent film festival. He is name is Bob Gazali. He's now the CEO president of AFI he said to me. Well, if you wanna get into entertainment, there's this kid in town that just one like the condom festival with this movie called sex lies videotape probably haven't seen it. But he's he's just finishing up his second movie. And I think he actually might be a hotshot you want you track them down and ask him how to do this. So I tracked him down. And I literally got college credit for Stephen to tell me just learned to do everything yourself. I got college credit for that. And when I went to my parents, and they said, look, do whatever you want you want to be an entertainment, my mom challenged me. So you don't have a plan said I'm going to write a book. So I started with what I knew how to do like, I know how to write. I don't know how to write a screenplay but in a right? So I wrote a book then from that book, I took a screenwriting class that that was not part of the curriculum at UVA, I took a screen lane class in turn that book into a screen. Play. When I I then took I got an internship at a video house where I learned to shoot and edit and to light and direct in a made short films. And I'm like, hey, I'm leaving college. I had written a book I'd written a screenplay. I have a bunch of short films that I made on my own just all on my own all of which I got credit for because I made my own major. And they're like, yeah. We'll give you credit for that. So I graduate from that. I want to make this into a movie now we have to raise money. So we'd literally went friend friend family member to family member. And just see could we scrape together hundred thousand dollars to make a movie like is that possible, and we scraped this money together. And my parents are like go for and when I tell you I had zero dollars in my Bank account because every summer most people would go get a job. My parents supported me and said, do what you wanna do that's gonna make you happy, and we'll support you. We just need to know. This is what you wanna do. When you're doing your best how much space did it take up inside you when you think about back in that era back in that phase of your life. When you're thinking about making movies or making a book or screenplay or was it is it more accurate say I wanna build something that had legacy. Like, I don't know what the thing is yet for you. The thing is I was making something out of nothing. But no, that's that's your process. Right. That's what you do. Really? Well, let's skill. But I'm trying to get a sense of like, what was the thing. You are driving toward it was the make something that mattered. Is that close? That's that's one hundred percent true. Okay. How much space did that take up in you? When I say. I'm gonna say all of it. Yeah. I mean, it's it especially in that period. Right. So I didn't have a girlfriend. I didn't have any money. I didn't have any hobbies. I didn't like I was I'm an I'm all in or I'm not right in especially when you're eighteen to early twenties. Like, I was just when I'm when I'm Lizzy is description of Johnny one speed, Mike it was and I will tell you how much it occupied. When you say how much space? So let me give you an example. So prior to deciding, you know, college is not for me. I drop out. Oh, it you know, it, but I'm going in entertainment. And now, I'm going to do this. So I did drink alcohol in college and the alcohol the alcohol, and I know people are gassed in they probably don't believe it. But in college, I consumed alcohol, and what I will say about my consumption of alcohol is I was in. I. I will use this word. I mean humbly, but it's true. Awesome. At it. I was really really good at it. I rush rang lush female Russian polish in I drank so much alcohol. You know, I would drink by myself not to get drunk because I loved beer and I loved cold beer, and it was interesting because I've since really examined. Why did I drink so much and it wasn't because it got me drunk? It wasn't like, oh my mind is being altered 'cause I never smoked pot. I've never done any drugs of any kind. I drink beer. But I was I was obsessed with drinking beer, what ended up happening is. I developed a tool fibrillation, and so my I had this irregular heartbeat. And I go to the hospital, and I'm like, I think I'm having a heart attack, and they're in they're going down the checklist. Like well. Do you do any drugs? Like what's going on? This is so unusual for somebody. Who's so young? Do you do? Drugs. I'm like, no, they're like do drank like sometimes like how often do you drink like every day? And like, no, I never drank on Wednesday. Like, are you crazy? So the doctor the doctor is like and how much you drink, and I'm like case to bear a day. I don't know. Like isn't that like a normal portion come on? I'm dead serious. So the doctor looked at me, and he goes, you're drinking a case to be day. You're not even legal to drink. You're having heart issues. You said you have a choice to make today like you can continue to roll the dice or you could stop drinking and have an actual wife in at that point. I sat back, and when you say how much space did it occupy? So I was drinking a case of beer day in college, I stopped sing they have never had anything to drink and really identified as young as young adult. Wow. I have this obsessive gene that. Could be used for really bad things or really good things. And I took that. And I said, you know, this is a great lesson for me 'cause I'm capable of doing that. I'm capable of evil. I'm capable of destroying myself. It's in me. And I know it could happen all on my own, but I need to focus, and I'm so grateful the data that happened because all of my space became filled with doing good. How much do you think about this part of you? This is fascinating to me this. I think this is the this is a huge insight about how you've become en- done. What you've done is that one. There was lots of insight to this ridiculous motor. And you realize that young age you had to point the motor in a direction to experience what you really wanted to experience destruction or space in wonder, or, you know, somewhere in those two when I said space, I mean destruction or in constriction or space in in something giving right? Okay. How much do you? How much time? Have you spent thinking about this do reflect on this a lot is this what you talk about. When you do keynote addresses. You talk about this part here of your life. I actually don't I don't share this part all that much like a a public forum. Or are speaking engagement be in when I do share it. This is why I have a little little bit of a hard time sharing in group setting because I do think to myself why can't everybody just shut it off? And I know the reason the reason is the way that our brains are wired, and I've gone deep with. Top notch professionals in this seeking this answer the road that I was going down was only because of I enjoyed the experience the feeling of a cold beer, the sound of it cracking the taste of it is cold. Like, I wasn't a drinking Jack Daniels getting drunk at all costs. It was purely beer, and it was purely ice cold beer, and to this day, drinking ice cold beverage is what I do that's different than someone who's doing it because they want to alter their state of mind, and it's very hard to tell people. Well, if I can do it then you can do it because they're dealing with a completely different issue than what I was dealing with. It's what we're wired differently. So I was not doing it to how I'm drunk, and I'm having a great time. In fact, when I went to UVA. I pledged to fraternity and I'm like, okay. I'll be fraternity. It's all good. But I was completely against drugs of any kind alcohol was fine. Does just this is just in my young mind. Right. I'm like, there's look alcohol's fine. All the drugs are horrible. And I'd let everybody know that like it was very open about it. And I got to this fraternity. And I was at a party early on right on the pledge. I'm early on. And turns out. Oh my God. They were doing drugs. I mean, can you imagine that people doing drugs in college? But I'm so naive in. I don't know anything about anything. I literally the next day. Just call them said I'm out because I don't want to be around it. They said, well, if you're not if you d- pledge this you're out of the whole Greek system like I don't wanna be around. It's just not me. So I left not caring that. Okay. I can't go to those parties. They're doing something that I don't want to be part of and people's able you're such a hypocrite because you are. Drinking like is it hypocritical from an objective point of view you. Go was sure is drinking worse than smoking pot or whatever. But within my own value system. I was like I don't wanna be a part of that. And this drinking by yourself thing was I didn't party a lot in college. I mean, that's that's the truth. I just enjoyed the experience of drinking a beer. It's like it's like when you died deepen that and he get one. So then when I stopped. Okay, do you. Okay. Sorry to interrupt me. Do you have is your thinking patterns or they rigid or flexible because I'm getting rigidity here. But I don't know you as being rigid K. So here's what I realize especially early in my life. I mean, it it's re it was rigid early in my life. I mean when I say, none of my friends in high school smoked pot. Like, we just nobody smoked pot. We drank beer, and that was like, okay. That was fine. But not because I had a black in white look at things like that was it, and I always remove myself from situations that were black and white. I would look at people, and I think at a younger age pretty much I could judge somebody more than perceptive about something. And once the event happened with alcohol with. Me. I sat back, and I'm like, wow. I think I'm pretty good person. And I really messed up, and as I've gotten older from that time, I have become so much more empathetic towards human beings that I don't really see black and white I see gray. And I now see everybody's got that back story that I don't know about. And I don't know how they wound up in this position in an incredibly empathetic. And when I see somebody who's working a job that they don't wanna work rather than being like that's because they're too lazy to go out. It's more. You know, what I don't know. I don't know what brought them that situation. I see it as more gray. So I would like to think that this type personality this will Johnny one speed. A I I would hope that my eyes are now seeing the world as more gray as opposed to block and white. Okay, brilliant because. It's like that got you into a position to be more flexible. It sounds like early on the rigidity the one speed the go at all costs got you into position. And then did you have a fallout because of that, I know obviously, your heart was one of the early ones. But were there any other costs to that now? No. Yeah. So it wasn't. So there was just like, no, no, I'm joking. Now there really wasn't you know, in terms of the fallout of being Johnny one speed. There were I mean, many projects where like other project didn't work out in. This is the this is the difference in terms of without view the world in the way that many people might see it. I go all out. And like I say, I think it's good enough. It's good enough. And if it fails and falls on its face when it's released it doesn't go anywhere. I honestly look at it. And I go just wasn't meant to be good enough for you your standards or good enough for your peers. Now. Good enough for me world. It's got to be good enough for me. And then who else is in your mind when you think of good enough like who's the next person that you think of the next person would be Lizzy. Of course, my wife, and then would be my mom, but my mom's a hard. It's you know, everything I do is. She's a mall, right? So everything's like, hey, you know, that's great Lizzy is grit is is a great critic. But I honestly even even with that. I'm the guy that when I'm doing what I'm doing. And I'm going forward in p and even when people from the sideline or hey, maybe you shouldn't be doing that. I'm like, you don't see the end. I know I know where it's going like I'm good with this like, I'm I don't get discouraged easily. I am so one-speed still. And I keep that as a strength because I feel like that's how I get things done is that I'm all in. I'm either all in all out. Okay. It's obvious that that is one of your core strains, how'd you balance this big belief in yourself in the? The good that's going to take place in the future. How do you balance that with the other side, which I'm sure you've had this prick before about Huber ISM versus humility? Right. And so people that have strong confidence strong belief can edge into the hubris. You know, cocky, arrogant space at anwr up people the wrong way in get in the way of projects and all that stuff. So how do you how do you balance? That is you're right at the border of I in when I say right at the border, and I think you saying that like somebody like sitting across you could be like, how dare you even imply that I potentially could be right. I said this from Lizzy from day one. I'm a fifty fifty proposition lighting when I show up you're going to like me or hate me. But you won't be apathetic about me. I'm a coin toss because many people will say that is that's one of the most era than people I've ever met. And other people will say, wow, that's one of the most passionate people I've ever met when I'm engaged in what I'm doing when I'm doing that belief. I try very very hard. And when I like, it'll be fun. Anybody who knows me is there laugh and say that's not true. But when I say arrogance does not enter my mind because arrogance to me is believing you're better than everybody else. And I honestly believe everybody else could be doing this too. And I don't think I don't think I'm the smartest guy in the room. I don't think I'm the most talented guy in the room. I think I'm willing to run through the wall. And I'm I'll get to the other side 'cause I'm kinda dubber n- enough to do it. But I've got some degree of intelligent some degree of talent. Some degree. But I know, and I know for a fact, I'm not even close to the smartest or the best or most or anything. I'm like are people so much better than me? But I'll finish, you know, give you really good example, my best friend random random is a great example of how of of me, my best friend ran a marathon in he called me when I was twenty seven he called me. And he said, I just finished a Marine Corps marathon. And what do you say to your best run winning? Does it? Right. You twenty seven like twenty five thousand other people who did it like great job. I said, you know, what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do an ironman hang up the phone. I'm like what's in iron, man? What am I doing? I don't even know what it is. It's not a tougher though. It's better than I'm like, I'm gonna one up you. So I look it up. It's a two point four mile open water swim. Mike. Just a little problem. I don't know how to swim. All right next thing. So one hundred and twelve mile bike, Mike. Wow. That's I mean, I can ride a bike. But I don't own a bike. So that might be that's the problem and then to twenty six point two mile run. Now, like, a haven't run anything beyond five K like God, man. Have I been off more than I could chew. Why decided so I was actually in the best shape of my life. When this was happening because backstory really quick at Wade one ninety eight and I was five eight and a half. And I was terribly out of I was like the meat head in the gym. I could lift a ton of weight, I was really strong for my size. But I couldn't walk up a flight of stairs or run a mile. So I lost fifty pounds broke the five it I decided to break the five minute mile because I'd never done it in high school, and I was pissed at myself. So I was starting this ironman thing. I was like in the best shape in my life. So I then go over to New Zealand by myself to do an ironman, and my best friend called me. And he just goes, dude. I. Listen, you're taking this thing. Little far like you've never gone swimming in open water, and I'm like what? So what? And he's like you don't understand there's no lane line or wall or you'd like it's dangerous. So they had a fun swim. That was the Wednesday before the race, and I'm swimming. And I'm not kidding. You five minutes into the swim. I say to myself, I'm gonna trout, and this is the worst of bitchy wary of all time man goes over to New Zealand to one up his best friend and dies in the fun swim. Like, this is the worst. This is awful. Oh, so I get out of the water. I swim two miles an hour in this open water. I then go take a swim lesson from some Olympic guy that was there doing a swim clinic. I beg him. I'm like, I don't know how to swim. You gotta teach me quick 'cause the racist in today's turns out the day of the race. I get out of the water. There are thousand people in the race. I'm one hundred I'm top ten percent in the swim in two point four miles. And I got out in fifty nine minutes. I swam almost a half mile further in the same amount of time is when I thought it was going to drown and I get out of the water now, Mike while this is pretty amazing. Get on my bike everybody passing me on the bike. But if thrive on the run cross the finish line. And I'm like, I did it. But during that process, I'm like, so was I era Ghent to believe that I could do it or was I just right? I'm like, you know, what it's one foot in front of the other. It's one pedal stroke at a time. It's. Once one-stroke at a time. I'll get there. I I've never done. I've never even come close is arrogant to think that or was I just right. I wasn't. I'm not era Ghent because I was I finished, you know, bottom fifty percent. There are people who are so much better than I am so much more talented so much, but I did what I set out to do. That's how my mind works is. I'm mike. I'm not even close to the challenge. Most talented, the smartest guy, but I'll get there of all the people that you studied on sports science the show who are you most like of the talent who of the talent. And I mean, I don't not nothing. I'm nobody. Personality was not not not I didn't mean that in like sport 'cause personalities personality wise of all the athletes, I would not even mention my name in the same bread of any of those athletes because they are so much better at what they're doing than what I'm doing. It was a little bit of a trap. But question wasn't like. And you said, no, no, no, no. I can't put my name next. Michael, jordan. I mean, I can't put my name next. Tiger woods. That's that's a really thoughtful response. You give I can't. I can't because with some might you didn't when like I know better. Yeah. That's really good. Really good. Like, I know better. I'm not that talented that smart that any one thing in particular other than being stubborn. Okay. So we know. Okay. So we got some core capabilities. Here stubborn driven. Big motor big engine, big belief system. But like accurate in where you place yourself amongst talent. But it, but you said earlier that at some point in our conversations, you had said that being the biggest is not is not a good thing. Being the fastest is the fastest the tip of aero Fasces is not a good thing. You need to be big and fast enough to be successful. Correct. And so you put that into a life lens. It's like you don't wanna have one hundred seventy I q you don't wanna be that guy. Right. Right. Because there's some costs in other parts of your life. You wanna have a hundred and something I q that's fast enough. And then you wanna have a social IQ and emotional IQ that is solid enough to relate. Okay. All right. So that's what you're saying that you found from the best and you're saying, I kind of fit that model. Luckily to I fit it on a per task basis for okay? So we know what you're driven toward. Okay. Doing things that matter legacy stuff. What are you driven from? I'm driven from. True. I mean, like what fuels me what's inside of me. And I when I tell you today that answers different than it would have been twenty years ago. Lizzy in kids really genuinely would drive me and my life is divided into two chapters. It's really before Lizzy after Lizzie once I met Lizzie everything changed, and that example of being I would call myself. I'm not the smartest, but I'm smart enough. And I'm not the most talented, but I'm talented enough. Like, I'm I fit that mold Lizzy brought a sense of appreciation. For myself. She knows me better than I know myself. So when when we have our pillow talk, she's the ultimate counselor on let's put everything in perspective because she's the opposite of Johnny one-speed. She's the ultimate in balance. She went to Princeton. She went to Harvard. She speaks three different lying that sounds like balance cheat. She she's the that she was the first person from high school to go to Princeton. But she's so balanced on she so not obsessive. She's this perfectly. I mean in my eyes on like, she's just perfection in carpet. And I look at her, and I try to model myself and say God, how can I be like her and for her? It's about moderation. She's the kind of person who can take, you know, the best taking tasting ice cream in the world in take a little spoonful say, wow, that's really good. I've had enough. I'm like, I'm the guy with his. Head in the bucket while case a beer, literally case a bear. Right. So Lizzie is it Lizzie has imparted upon me. The ability to evaluate myself, even better in guess when I met Lizzie. And you've heard the professional story matter when we were making x-emmitt. Met her at that exact moment where that word delusional was filling was fueling me and Lizzie then comes with my life. And I'm like now we've had the love at first sight story met on a plane next to each other to blocks away from other same street like this perfect match and heaven, and when I say Lizzy in the kids fuel me, that's my genuine purpose. But when I say, I answer to them. I have to be able to whatever it is that I'm doing I need to make sure that my wife in my kids won't be upset at me for what I'm doing at that moment every moment of the day. And when I go home, and I'm praying when I say on deeply spiritual in I answer. I really honestly believe in God. However, you want however, you look at the universe that did I add to the energy in a positive. Away or take away from it. And I answer that question every night. And obviously there are many nights. Where I go messed up. I was not a net positive person today. Okay. Brilliant through chapters. Is there a third is? They're going to be a third. Right. So that's the question, right? Here's my answer. I'm gonna say, we're we're always evolving, but my life is to chapters because the evolution happened until I was thirty one with just me, and my parents and family, and that support system from Lizzy on it's like Lizzie, and I are forever, and we're going to evolve together forever. And in terms of there being a nother chapter. It's just going to continue to evolve. And I think I probably become overtime a more moderate person. Probably you know, I think we're somewhere in the hundreds of interviews conversations with people that are switched on. And nobody's taken up as much space as you are right now about the relationship their love life. So that's that's noticeable to me how important this is for you. She is she's everything. I mean, Li Lizzy is everything. And when people say, you know, when like you complete me, I almost feel like I actually didn't really exist. I wasn't knee until Lizzy came aboard. I was I had my training wheels on but I couldn't ride the bike. She like wasn't. I wasn't really doing it. I was I was Johnny one speed. And I was bowling forward in doing what I do when Lizzie Kane XM came fight science came sports science, everything took off everything got better and better because I think my clarity in my vision got even better with her. How old are your kids nine in an eleven nine eleven. So are they into sport? Yeah. Yeah. A little girls a gymnastics baller. She's amazing two time state champion. She's awesome. Wow. Rice does a lot of the cross or son does across total ball, really really excelled. In it. What insights based on your? Observation in study from the sport science lenses, are you hurry shaping your kids in parenting Greek lesson, and I don't know if people are gonna agree or disagree with this. I am making sure the my daughter knows she's a human being she's not a little girl, and I feel like society takes little girls in handicaps them right away. They lower the expectations the games are shorter. They don't have to do it. You know, for the presidential physical fitness says, you don't have to do the same as the boys. Oh, you're never gonna be as fast as the boys. You're not going to be a strong. You're not gonna they tell you that right away. And I'm telling my little girl. I'm like right now, she's the fastest human in her class, male or female, and like dude ride that as long as you can't there might be a day when you're not. But don't let anybody tell you. It's because you're a girl like that. You're a human and go for it physically. She's a very very good gymnast. For her age. And I'm I'm really realistic. It standing back saying what are the odds that my little girl has what it takes. Because her mom's five-foot, I'm five eight. She is she is little one speed when it comes to gymnastics in a task. She's like got that focus. So she's in that space. Now, it would somebody like that. Are they ultimately again, become the greatest in the world ever means to be seen? But I'll keep the options open for my son. When you look at how are you raising him the world, I'm like, I'm raising him. Especially on letting him know, you're you're a man like, I totally get it that you're a boy. And I totally get it. The boys do boys things, but you're you're more mature than you possibly think. In my son now is eleven going on twenty one. I'm like, you know, more than you think, you know. And you know, what's right and wrong. And obviously both my kids, you know, what's right and wrong. And you do your best every day, and I'm trying to echo what my parents, which is drill into my head on. You know what I get that? You're a kid in be a kid, but you do know what's right and wrong. And that idea of accountability is one that I think is key. And they're both the row thriving in flourishing. It's it's it's been awesome. As a parent, but you know, the nature versus nurture argument. Like are. We just blessed with two awesome kids, or is it the manner in which Lizzie in ira- parenting, or like what is it? And when I say two awesome kids. Everybody thinks kids are awesome, right? At least they should. And I think everybody should think that that their their kids are awesome. And they're when I say Lizzy Lizzy is number one. My kids are right. There of if I want to hang out with anybody in the world. It's Lizzie only kids. Okay. Let's stay on the sport thing for just a minute. Are you help are you encouraging them to do sports training or sports specific movements, like just get dramatic stand genetics. Or are you having do some sort of other types of base movements? They have to be multi sport to even though my daughter is excelling in gymnastics. She still on the ski team. She had a I, you know, it was like you gotta play lacrosse you. Gotta play soccer. You gotta do other stuff. Because if you focus too early, it's a bad thing. A you're gonna burn out be it's bad for your body to begin with you need. The you need the movements that your body doesn't ordinarily do to strengthen your body. So it can do what it's really good at that cross training idea. So the kids ski in the winter in, you know, Bryce plays lacrosse basketball football ski like yeah. You gotta do other stuff. You're not allowed to just park when your kid you need all that other movement. And I think that that honestly carries through even at the elite level that you can't do one motion over and over and over because there are only so many times that you can do it you need to have that cross training. Those other sports to strengthen other parts of your body. Flipping on that as a segue onto your book perfection point. What are the one or two insight? You big insights that you've learned from there that influence how you parents. But also, you know, when you think about athletics in general in human performance in general, and I think I have this right? One of might be in. So this is maybe you can add two more to it is that we're actually pretty close to the upper limits. Depends on what we're talking about. Okay. I didn't get that quite right. Yes. I it depends on what we're talking about. I was thinking speed in terms of speed straight line speed. It depends on what percentage you're actually dealing with. Right. 'cause we're now I still think we're close to half a second away from the top speed that we can achieve that were you know, four tenths to five tenths. So is that closer not relative to nine seconds. It's it's still a decent way away. I think we're we're really close is in distance running thinking the marathon were really close to top it out. Why is that? We've been running far distances as a species for a really long time. Right. The arbitrary distant of the hundred meter dash we've been kind of doing that. But it's. I think we're further away from the the hundred meter dash than we are the marathon the marathon, we're almost topped out when you start talking about. Well, what about you know, what about how high we can jump? I think we're probably pretty close to how high we can jump because we've been jumping for a really long time when you say, well, what about lifting? Yeah, we're close to the limit because our frames can only handle so much and we've been able to get there. But then when you say, well, how far you can hit a golf ball. How long have we been playing golf you say the long jump? How long have we been long jumping like we when you look at the sample size. It all goes by sample size to me. How hard we can throw a ball. Yeah. We're almost at the top because the sample size is so big there are million pitches. Thrown in North America alone every year. That's just in North America. A million by professional Pitt by the best of the best. So we know that we top out at that. But when you look at will are were are we at the top you look at the X games. And that's where I say depends on what we're talking about do it. Yeah. We're we're just scratching the surface there. Yeah. In most of the X games adventure bay sports females. On such a radical clip of growth exponentially faster than than men. I I don't know if they'll ever happen. But it could be that women get are closer to surfing that you can amount men's and women's you know, start right now, it's not there. There's still a delta. But the rate of improvement is radical in the female side of it. Okay. So sorry, go back to like one or two takeaways from perfection point. I think one or two takeaways is the idea of perfection is is a really good one. But just know you'll never reach it. So that's that's takeaway number one. It's impossible to reach it. There's no way to be perfect. There's no way that even the numbers. I laid on the book they can't be achieved everything would have to be perfect. And there's no such thing. So that's number one. Takeaway number two, don't let that discourage you from trying. I mean, that's that's that's the way. I look at it is like you're never going to reach it. But that shouldn't discourage you from trying because. Maybe I'm away wrong. And maybe like someone saying you're delusional. Maybe I maybe I'm completely wrong. And someone can prove me wrong on what I think the limit actually is in go for it. Don't let it discourage. You let it encourage you to do my best. And maybe that limit is maybe I lay out in the in the book, we set really crappy limits, and this is a book about setting a limit. So maybe the limit. I said is completely wrong off base. It's my opinion based on a lot of science and a lot of fact in Lada factors calculate. Maybe. I'm wrong. I love it. Listen to the people that have been on sports signs. I mean, it's it's really knows you go Ben Rothlisberger, Jerry Rice, Larry FitzGerald, Dom consumer drew Brees like goes on and on and on and on like, it's like you can go on. That's I mean, those are just some NFL names. But you get Kevin Durant in the lab, you'll get Klay Thompson lab and get you know, is as Thomas in the lab like we get we we've had so many athletes have had the great I've had the great privilege of having a front row seat to true greatness. So this is now a non objective question. I'm going to ask. But more subjective. Have to the first is have you noticed any trends in athletes? Yes. I think it's a surprise people. When people are like NFL players are just gonna keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger actually don't think that's the case. I think we are seeing that the size that we currently have is working against us. And when people go why are there there's so many injuries? And like look at how big everybody is it's working to the disadvantage of the team. So I actually think I like when people go so you think linemen are going to be lighter. I mean, I think they're going to be lighter and more nimble in more athletic than just big in. That's what I'm seeing. Like you look at you. Don't look at the position of tight end. And how it's completely changed to those guys are just NBA players. I mean that was never the case in the eighties. Right. So you're you're seeing a change there in basketball, the center has vanished. Right. I mean, nobody runs a center based offense anymore because they figured out. You know what? I love the moneyball of it all is loud. The percentage of making a three point shot is actually not that different than a, you know, a, you know, a fourth fourteen foot jump shot in the rebounding percentage on the three point shot is actually in the offenses favor because it's gonna ricochet off further than if I shoot from closer in. So when you do the math of it, all if you have somebody who can shoot a three shoot the three. It's like, it's like are trends in every sport. And the biggest trend I think that that I see is. I hope and I know this won't happen in my lifetime. But I really I really do hope that eventually we get to a point where men and women are just playing together. Because I I see very few positions in sport. Everybody immediately jumps to the NFL. They go new woman's gonna play linemen in the NFL. Like, no, no normal sized human being plays lime in the NFL. But I I wanna see men and women competing together at every level from youth onto professional won't happen in my lifetime. It may never happen. But I think we shouldn't separate it out. Because there are a lot of women that are out there that if you lined all seven billion people up from day one, you know, as babies and said, we're going to give you equal access to everything. How many women would play in the NBA the answer's not zero. Okay, cool. Okay. Second second subject who question on a scale of one to ten everyone that you've interviewed been part of your lab experience and it's front row seat to the grates on a scale of one to ten of. Self-belief if you took all of them together. Where would you throw that dart in what target area? Would you imagine on the scale of one to ten they're they're all all of the greats all of the grades riding eleven now. It's crazy. It's crazy. But they they like you think you look at Michael Jordan. And you think he's the greatest basketball player of all time. Yeah. But does he have the highest shooting percentage? Not even close you're like because he believed in himself so much dimissed shot didn't even register. It's like whatever the ball, Dan going. Give me the ball game. The next one. Will it doesn't matter. If I miss miss one hundred in a row, the next one's going in. They just don't lose that belief in themselves. It's one thing. Like, I heard that story growing up, but I couldn't swallow it. I couldn't make it mine, and it's a whole different thing to actually believe that it's phenomenal. And they haven't the then the second this is related the this is question to be if you will. How many of them demonstrated nervousness prior to the test that you are giving them interesting because that's one of the things that were really looking for of the elite of the elite. Now, it's interesting. So we do a combine where we'll have most of the top guys going into the draft come in. We censor them all up, and we watch heart rate and respiratory rate and all kinds of factors on when they're doing the test. The true great actually just remain calm and exactly the same people who haven't made it yet. They can get nervous. And it's interesting. I I compare it. We wired up Travis Pastrana before he was a setting the world record for longest jump in like a car in Long Beach. This is many years ago. I remember that new was no limits. Yeah. There's no Olympic notes. So we wired him up his heart rate. Never changed from the time. He left his tent to any got in the car to any landed in south lake never change. Like, that's that's what greatness is we've had done. A lot of work with navy seals elite special forces people who are in Lee's special forces. We literally we put a Cyper in a box where we covered him with ice. I remember the study bugs we had translates crawling on his face heart rate. Never changed just like just nothing fazes him. And that's the difference where I would say I like where I sit where I can be really honest with myself and say am I in that group? The answer is no I am not in that group. I like when everything is going crazy. I haven't reached the point in my life yet where I can honestly say I stay super calm in like I can see the whole playing field. I don't have that keen sense where elite athletes do I can be honest with myself and say like I said, I'm not the best in anything. That's one of the reasons why because. Look, I'm stubborn, but I also I wouldn't stay stay calm. Like a navy seal would in Crete. I would I I wouldn't be that got I was involved in a project at red bull number years ago where we wired up a a leak golfer when we did a heart rate, monitor and EEG Shirley looking at real time brainwaves as well as right elite offer local pro and then kind of a weekend hack shirt, and then we put him under different levels of pressure. And what we found is that the weekend hack. He was fine because his identity was never involved. So he would just go at it. Like, no problems the elite pro like he was his typically our guy. He would do something phenomenal is that he would activate all of his alpha alpha and beta would alpha would activate to the fresh hold of what you would consider to be acceptable. And it will be right at that level. And then after he would execute the skill it would flush up. It's like he let go and it would flush up and expand and then it would quickly release. So we had this ability to hold it older all get through the movement. And then it would like and then he released and then the weekend. I'm sorry. Then the local pro the guy that everybody knows his name in the local area. And he was the his identity was over involved in what he would do what he did was a disaster. Right. So he couldn't maintain that limit that glass ceiling if you will of internal arousal in. And it was spiking off the charts. And at the end of the experiment. He says God. Get I feel like I wanna kill myself. He was like, oh, we gotta go back and make sure we got all the internal reviews like yet. But so I think phenomenal finding that the whether it's chicken and egg in, you know, whether it's genetic or or mental skills, I wanna think it's a combination of both and the number of frames that the elite have seen the number of experiences. They've had to rely on, you know, getting through whatever experience at their now. Again, we learned that can we learn to stay calm under pressure thousand percent. That's how I put food on my table. You know, it is skill. It is an absolute skill. You. Absolutely. Can learn very difficult to replicate in a laboratory setting. It is like it takes time. That's why we've witnessed LeBron James becoming great, right? We watched him and people are like I choked in the finals I played like I'm like, dude. He's like nineteen or twenty like, we all we also saw Kobe Bryant same thing. Yep. You don't miss his first big shots or whatever quote unquote, big shots. And he if you. In the playoffs right early in his career. But if you deconstruct he didn't see it as big it was just another opportunity. Right. And so he just had a long term view of his future rush anyways. Yes. You can learn com. Yes. You can learn confidence their mechanical it takes time. But it takes a lotta time. Okay. Super time. Thank you. This is unbelievable. So what how do you? Let's get right to the end of two really big bangers. Do you have a philosophy? God july. I do I do. Here's what I say to myself good as word you use. When something is not great don't be scared to be great. And I it I say that. And I'll say to my wife, I'll say to my kids don't be scared to be great like people. And when when you say that and you hear that in your head. That's where I think. Like, the desire to be great to do something. That's great. I can't decide whether or not it genuinely is great because time will only tell but I can kneel down at night and say man, I really tried to be great. I really tried in guides me. And I'd say, you know, what I'm going to good as a word to use. When something is not great don't be scared to be great. And then how do you operationalize or define great? I think you define gray as. It has differentiated itself in a positive way amongst the competitive field with ever that. Is it somehow is different in? This is this is how I'll define greatness, I say Nirvana's, smells, like teen spirit is at a great song. Now, if you sit back and you say, musically like note for note is at a great song you like, well, there's not the like is Bach or Beethoven is at a better composition, smells, like teen spirit changed the musical world. That's a great song. It it made a John More than a dent in the musical universe. Now. When they were writing that song did they intend on that to happen? They thought it was they thought it was certainly good enough to be good to put out in the university. They thought it was great like sure why they wouldn't have done. Otherwise turns out. It was when you're doing something. And you're saying is it greater not you can't tell right. This second. But it's fine to tell yourself. You know, what I believe that? It's good enough to be good to be considered. Good out in the world. I can just I just know it objectively I can say that the might song is good enough to be considered good. Is it great? I can think it's great. But I won't know. Cool. Very cool. It's clean. It's really clean for you. And then the the last kind of big banger is how do you think about the fine articulate the concept of mastery? I think mastery is finding a system that works for you. Where whatever it is that you're doing you win on a repeated basis. A B you're not satisfied with winning. That's hanging. No, you're trying to achieve mastery in that way. I would define no one ever becomes a genuine master like on the master of everything on the master, whatever. But what I mean by you find a system that works for you in wins every time that goes down to when you are interacting with somebody at the store. Did you make them happy mean were they glad that they met you as a random person? Or did you make the met like the way that you did that if you're standing at a free throw line? Did you make were you ten for ten like, did you actually master that? And there are very few things in life where you can say will have mastered at all you can master in increments, and you can master in small increments. Can I play my scales on my Qatar? Can I play them wickedly? Fast. Can I play them back when? Yeah, it works every single time. I I've got that. Now, let's do my courts. Can I play every version of that chord yet? I can do that. Now, let's go do, you know, jazz courts. Do you know rock quit like you keep going on and you master by winning in increments? So you win every time you've developed a system. But you're you have the foresight to know, I'm not happy with just winning that thing because there's something else have to go in. That's my definition. Very cool very cool thoughtful different than I've heard from anyone else so far. I don't know if it's a good. If that's a good cool. You look you're like cool. It's new and so, and but you also were able to break it down. Right. So the two elements are understand your system that allows you to win and also recognized that winning is not the end game. It's not yet. Right. This moves on so. Yeah. At one that. But there's a lot more. There's more to it. So I can't say I'm a master yet. Not is finding master. There isn't is there such a thing as being a master. And I'd say depends on your parameters haven't met anyone that says, I'm a master. Well, god. I mean who could who could be. I mean, if you say to Michael Jordan were you a master basketball player. He's gonna say I was I was really the best on the fast. But I could you know, I could always be better. It's crazy. I mean, that's yeah. That's cool. That's how you have to think. Okay. Your book working we find it. The perfection point any bookstore or any website. What what's next for you? What's next? For me is going to be an exciting frontier. I'm entering a stage where been around doing. Doing entertainment ventures and created a really solid foundation to take that to the next level. I mean, I've been very fortunate in that I have been successful in various ventures. And when I say good fortune. There is no guarantee, and I tried really really hard. What you're gonna see from me next is to take my current skillset and go up notch. Just take it to the next level. That's what you're gonna see. And in what form that happens? I think you're gonna see music. I think you're gonna see television. I think that you're gonna see new media. I think that the the entertainment landscape is changing so fast. It's hard for us to keep up with it. But like everything I've got this vision in idea of where I think we need to go and where things are going to be five years from now. And you'd better be starting now. Now because if you start five years from now, you're going to be way behind the game, very cool and break of midnight break of midnight, the podcast we do bring you can go to bring midnight dot com. It's on every platform, obviously, it's anywhere that podcast can be found and brink of midnight the band, so Lizzie in I write music, you can check out all of our music on everywhere. That music is is available. We wrote a Christmas song ended up charting. It was just an awesome experience really fueled our desire to wanna make more music in. We're continuing to make more music, and it's a it's a genuine passion of ours. It's a I just think music is that thing of if I were to pick one thing one thing that I was really really excellent at it would be a musician. It'd be jazz for me. Yeah. Like, can you imagine? I like, I'm a we've re we write songs, and I can I can I'm I'm a decent guitar player. Decent musician. Can you imagine? Jn just can you imagine being an amazing Graham easing musicians? Beautiful beautiful art. It is powerful to it's a language of the world. And then okay. So those are two in any other places. Social media was social media. Check us out on brink of midnight. You know on on all social platforms. You can find me on Twitter at John Broncos J N B R E N K U S underscore. Yeah. And just just keep a lookout because they're big things ahead. Love that. Got me curious. Okay. Good. I know you're being vague for reason. And that's fine. Okay. And then folks if you if you enjoy this type of conversation, which is an exploratory insight driven, a curious conversation, definitely checkout. Bring midnight in the conversations are about important moments in people's lives and check that out because there's something there. And I highly encourage you to go, you know, tune in listen and subscribe as well, so John thank you for your time. Thank you for introducing. Two shows that I was familiar with from longtime ago that have been fun to see how you've been able to shape the landscape of sport and science put together. So thank thank you for the time today. Thank you so much. You're amazing. Honestly, thank you.