The radical experimenters: a rapper, a poet, and a biological artist
This is an ABC podcast. Hey welcome to side friction and welcome to the first three minutes. Units of the universe in the first three minutes of the universe doesn't expansion simultaneously Teini Asli everywhere not zero second but close the first hundred of a second hotter than the hottest star blew hot bruting rooting halt. The nor Smith Says Earth was not found or heaven above but in a yawning gap. That was grasp but no way there were no vikings kings. No Vanilla no lampshades but there was Lego like for life in the first three minutes of the universe everything started added to come together. ferment began to develop lips to form the word poem. one-star dreamed of turning away and now they're just so it could have time. I'm to shape clay. The universe became a rogue gallery of Jigsaw fighting for space and in quiet moments. Mango juice squeezed from the heavens and sparkled like Shaq suits. There was the first spoonful of the CARTWHEEL GALAXY N G C one. Three six five with its. Jim Like bots spiraled wills sentence hyperion Jupiter's moons pulsars born cramping the styles of the middle. I molecules began collecting just so that the wood Po Quaid could be part of this missing in the first three minutes of the universe. Atoms rose dancing and just like the poet. Rumi said they were dancing like madmen. Happy on miserable and they just kept on dancing lover. Melvin poet and performer Alicia. Sometimes there with her pace the first three minutes of the universe and Tesha Mitchell joining you for science friction. We're at this end of the universe you are about to in Canada. I eight poetry cosmos a biological artist who grows organisms as living artworks and a rat performer. Whose lyrics ricks pulse site with? Science Professor Oren Katz is co-founder of the Tissue Culture and art project and director of the University of Western. Australia's influential art. Science lab symbiotic. Baba Brinkman is a new york-based rep performer and playwright whose awesome Rep God's to science audits range from climate change to consciousness and Alicia sometimes is most recent show. Particle wave gathered audiences under planetarium dimes times. These three creative experiment is pushing the elastic boundaries of both at n science and shared a stage at the quantum words festival in Perth. Recently cently he's Aleisha reflecting on those first three minutes. What we want to do when we passion about and scientists connect with an audience? And I I have that problem I'm full of hyperbole and scientists aren't and I love that about them and they care about the mess they care about the facts and I hear all that and I read all that and then I'm just like oh his blitz. He's some poetry so I remember Reading Steven Weinberg's book the first three minutes of the universe and it's full of great fact so this was my interpretation mango juice squeezing from the heavens technically correct Richt by the way the physicists would disagree in that universe buddies taking a obviously a poetic license. But that's what I as a poet what I can never find the right words and the reason the movie dirty dancing connected so well with me. Is that moment. That one of the main characters is carrying a watermelon win and she goes up to Patrick swayze who she likes and says. I carried a watermelon. And that's all she can say and that is what I am like so often. I can't find the exact words and I love that about science that they can find words really matter and in a scientific communication or scientific paper hyper words mean everything but I love as a poet. I can sort of pie around with that and Taika Pot. Isn't it interesting that you draw contrast because as I often think when I'm reading your work that infect poetry and science scherer conciseness and brevity of language precision each word gets placed with intent. And yet your thinking of the relationship is quite contrasted. I totally understand what you're saying. And Brevity is so true and as a poet and I'm sure poets in the audience. They can understand this. Every word matters this and carries it's white but the thing is how do you communicate dark matter. Or how do you communicate Nebula something in biology or does I mean I can never find the right words. I love in contact. A film inspired by. Carl Sagan's book by the same. I'm Nice Cellular pinup boy. I'm so glad it was there. I didn't know you were gonNA talk about him. When demon haunted world is such an important political inspiring because well the Jodi foster character Elliott Airway says when she's thrust into space they should have center poet and finally why Korea I get to go in space so maybe on Amazon or something? I'll get to go just to ago. Mango juice everywhere. Do you feel like you could take sides. Or is that that's not your raisin for you all the Wanda I'm about to wonder in storytelling. I do understand that sometimes the failure of can you just beautifying science and that is somehow not enough and and that's why I love what so many people do is they take it apart in question and what aren was hanging is just so incredible what they do but I yes yeah so just like the storytelling and I really need to communicate it to audiences so they can just take away a little bit of wondering their pocket full of wonder. Hey John Adams Americans said you never learn if you have a poet in your pocket. I just loved that I said what are you trying to do with. I've seen your show particle wave. which takes you inside a planetarium? Describe it for people but also what you're hoping to do with that piece it's musical visual Poetic Extravaganza yes. I loved canvas of the Planetarium Dome and from when I was young and a lot of you would feel feel the Siamese diaby lie back. And you've got this gorgeous. Almost three sixty canvas above you and so I wanted to use that canvas to sell tell held. The story of gravitational waves got to work with a lot of scientists and I recorded a lot of scientists and I want the general public to coming and have a sense of awe four so it mixes poetry music visuals just to tell the story from general relativity some black holes look lookit to kill an and just sort of pint pitcher and I want people to come out and say well I might go read up on that but I had a science instinct come in an eighteen year old. He said that she walked in wanting to do chemistry and came out wanting to do gravitational wave astronomy. And I'm like my works done. That's enough poet delicious. Sometimes there when you think about rap song lyrics what comes to mind politics. Maybe six drugs love last year. American crime and punishment. Absolutely what about science though not really well here as Baba Brinkman canadian-born and and married to a neuroscientist at some point these graduate in comparatively chat court the science bug big time and he's now a renowned science communicate through he's rap gods to things like climate change evolution human nature religion and culture my first rap theater popularisation project CHAUCER's Canterbury Tales and a An evolutionary biologists in England saw that and he said good job. Now do you think you could do for Darwin. What you did for Chaucer and the first time I was introduced to do a performance which was at the Darwin Bicentennial Mark Pailin? The biologist introduced me by saying. Don't worry I checked his lyrics. You're about to witness the first ever rap performance. That's peer reviewed house like peer reviewed rap. That's the best idea ever confession. Spend my whole life perplexed. By Religiousness Front doorstep debating with Jehovah Witnesses I was a teenaged empirical thinker a spiritual seeker obsessed with rap. I considered it liberal research. This was the medium the Daca thinking speaking flipping ridiculous speech over beats like every weekend weekend my CD collection became my personal gospel. I wasn't apostle I think part of it was an unexpected side effect of doing science. This communication rap projects and that side effect was that I became way more gangster rapper and partially. That's because I used to be a communicator of my ideas in the humanities and interpretations of symbols and it all felt very woolly but the first time I did a rap show about Darwin I was I'm representing the scientific consensus around the factual basis of common human origins and natural selection as the key origin of complexity Adaptation in nature. Take it with me or the Army of scientists that you know. I kind of found this like voice in the science communication wraps that I had never had in my previous work doc because of the confidence of this is the best of our knowledge. And don't worry I checked and then when I'm up on stage it'd be like he's a fax and and Yeah I don't know I really. I enjoyed that. And it also got a great response audiences really resonated with it so I kind of became this like. It's not very hip hop to say this way. But this soldier for Scientific Orthodoxy. I mean all good rat taps into a bigger kind of power of some sort like a power our of a community or a cause or a plot so he wa science literacy. I think is an important thing that all science communicators can contribute to and wrap was not a channel that had been used for that. But I think it's a powerful channel master. The craft that could start a new religion devoid of superstition vision. A descendant of secular humanism with the ecstatic rituals of ancient mystical shame. Mystical visions except based on philosophical naturalism. Which means no supernatural or natural claims? No counterfactual nothing. But reason and evidence troops rational in my religion. The truth is sacred and science adjudicated in meditation. Who You WANNA find your human nature exists Q.? And it's not rude to face it. Enlightenment comes when we understand how evolution shape this demon human haunted world you can take it from Carl. Sagan read the Christian religion involved whether it benefits one of us or whether benefit saw nap to problems they're gonNA get solved. Religion evolve the biggest sale of society. The bigger the God people get along when someone's watching them. Religion evolved will send a rocket skit on a man mission to Mars to holy wars. Don't kill US first. Let's hope Jimmy Ball just not you know you. Mike Congregation a few years ago. I got fascinated with this field of research called evolutionary religious studies which is also sometimes called the cognitive science of religion and the ideas. Let's treat religion as a set of behaviors and cognitive processes. And try to come up with naturalistic explanations. For how how our species gained these instincts to believe in the supernatural or to attribute forces to an agency or intelligence and then also look at sort of cultural models models for how the details of each religion evolve so has of course. Religion persists in societies and eleven theorist would say will must be an evolutionary benefit. It's a complex behavior although it that's the debate is an evolutionary benefit to the individuals or a group is it to the groups or is it a side effect of something else. That's an adaptation or is it a cultural adaptation that's based on earlier physiological psychological adaptations. That had nothing to do with religion and then culture coopted it so there's varying theories he's but what they have in common is that we don't need a supernatural explanation for supernatural explanations. So when you sit down with your creationist family members or indeed audiences because I know you do and you tell them that they they fight system might be just a belly button biproduct that guy. Hi Dad when I created this rap evolution of religion show. I expected to get religious pushback but I really didn't I have people faith. Come to the show show all the time and they tend to say to me afterwards. I don't agree that that's where religion comes from. But I appreciate you taking us more seriously lead than most atheists because I think most atheists are prone to say they're just stupid they're just crazy it's a delusion you know snap out of it and at least the evolutionary evolutionary religious studies perspective perspective says. Okay I don't think it's true but that doesn't mean it's useless. So let's look at the adaptive benefits that draw people to it. It and I think a lot of people who are religious are more interested in a horizontal dimension of their religion than the vertical dimension. Like how does it change the way they interact with people. And that's what theories of religion are all looking at is what are the actual functional differences between having not having faith and can help us get to the origins of faith from an evolutionary perspective. So validating in a way. That's a really interesting point if you turned up though to to give a public lecture didactic kind of thou shalt believe what I'm telling you people without the REP track. How do you think that would go down? By contrast to an audience of faith for example or an audience of climate denies for example I think rap is designed Zayn to make you feel something I think as an art form. It's like a interact with the crowd. Colin Response Throw your hands up. Get people to laugh or cheer. Whatever at it's best that creates a rapport an openness to think about the ideas that you're talking about that if it was just like? Here's how it is. It would be more of an argument mode. I'm so I try to and hope that rap can achieve this connection visceral connection that can be a sort of lubricant for for information passing between people but nobody comes to my show and completely changes their mind after seeing one performance although they might get curious and decided to go read some stuff over time be like You know the like seed has been planted deeply graffiti with every one of the arrests. Everyone of my shows shows ends with a picture. That's got a bunch of books references back to the question at hand conscious mind. Try to predict your thoughts as best. I can and predictive predictive never even considered what religion is adapted for. Or if you have the night predict you've never heard of rap before how do I know what the Dapper I mean. It could be random drift. Could be a by. I product comes something else that has adaptiveness like your belly button which is amazing. But it's not really Ford navel-gazing onto side effects of your umbilical cord. So Religion Gin might be a viral mean that's parasitic or it might be an adaptation for maximizing descendants it might benefit individuals or it might benefit whole groups. Were might be the invention of cynical priest trying to control you or belly button glad product to recap them in the past maladaptive in the president. Those are good questions to ask. And Science can find the answers and the answers of non obvious except for the answer to where religion doesn't come from divine providence. The thing about rap is that in. Spain traditionally A. Y. will always be a way of expressing injustice rage fury anger disappointment that moment. There's an intensity of rage in many rap lyrics and this is what makes it so interesting this space in science now science is now at the heart of a whole lot of rage in society and if we look at the nature of the climate change debate quote unquote. There's a lot of rights they from all different aspects of the community and I wonder whether you're tapping into a particular vine there to wrap since the beginning has had sort of. You've strong negative emotions about societal injustice as one of its channels and celebration of the good life as a number one another one of its channels and the celebration of the good life wraps have ended ended up having more commercial success so a lot of people associate rap more with like showing off jewels and dancing and and material wealth celebration. And you don't see a lot of rage in that channel and sexual conquest. Yeah right so you know I think but I think both of those associated expressions of rap can be put towards science communication challenges just different ones rages inappropriate response when it comes to reacting to the fossil fuel manipulation of the political system in order to continue their highly polluting industry and slow down the transition to renewables like that is completely outrageous and people should feel rage. It's a it's a generational generational injustice that's been perpetrated Rabkin channel that but it can also channel the celebration of technologies that allow for greening and we can we can make electric vehicles. The new bling and wrap can help us with that channel as well. He's saying so. I think I mean really like the range of human emotions are on display in rap songs. uh-huh and it's like which one is appropriate to which science communication challenge and I was thinking about you. Climate Change Chaos Rep when when I was thinking about ride. The challenge with climate change is that you just say those words in everyone gets more depressed. So how can you have. People have fun with that in a way. That itself is something that you can play with and subvert and the techniques have rap can help so one of the songs I do is call fossil fuel ballers and unlike fossil fuel. If you're burning something Holler back back in. The crowd doesn't anything I'm like. What no one's GonNa Holler back? This is a western democracy. You guys burn tons of stuff. Let's be honest you know. And then the next time I do the chorus people alike and he started hollering and then by the end of the song. I'm like get loud if you're all the back and there was like yeah we burns off and at the end of the song that I'm like. You should be ashamed aimed if yourself so you can kind of use the tech the call and Response Techniques of rap to put get people into a zone of getting comfortable about looking at their own behavior savior and then start a conversation with that about what lifestyle. Changes are desirable necessary. You know what what are the proposed policy policy solutions to climate change. Some of which do entail a scaling down of our current abundance of civilization and others of which don't and You know it's more a reorientation away from the most polluting technologies where we still get till use energy everyday which most of us probably still WANNA do sides. Rapper Baba Brinkman their biological artist. Oren Katz Work and collaborations challenges is to think critically about the limits in the wild possibilities of biotechnology with his partner in work and life Dr Yang Zor. He's been cultivating living sells to Mike Art Forms for decades so there was the semi leaving steak. He made out of frog cells and then ate the victimless leather Eh. The jacket constructed from cultured cells the Porcine Wings Project in which he grew pink stem cells over a pair of wings because why pigs might fly and a whole lot. More work is creatively Franken. Stinian in the best kind of way Orhan no relationship decides news nemesis instrument. It's it's an interesting relationship so I went across boarders and this is a clue for you as well never till the customer. The border control people cheering artists. They would say that you so whenever I cross borders I say my work. He's he's looking at the the cultural impact of life sciences and the reason for that is actually true is as an artist. I'm really interested. In how contemporary life sciences changes which is our understanding of the concept of life. So that's the interest interest is more lyft and science in the sense yeah but sciences kind of provides the most radical shifts on spending afford fees and therefore I twenty three years ago popped myself in the science department at the University of Christmas. Rilya never lift in in a situation where actually really run research center in about science departmental not now twenty years. No that's it allows artists to come and work in a fully equipped barge club am Eh so often people confused affected. We're using the tools of science and they call US scientists but we we actually doing art using the tools of contemporary biology working with the materiality -ality of life in manipulating of life as a way to get at least insights into how undistinguished life is really needed. A major revision is a tie. Goes back to those early years of win because now you're in the mainstream you're a center of excellence in biological art but then you doing stuff that really scared the Bejesus out of people you were taking tissue cultures and growing them over all sorts of objects just described what people so I'm Steven cubing referred to is the closest thing to Frankenstein decide to fiction and live with it quite well So I did. My research actually studied product design and I was really interested in in what I observed in which is very snow but not suppose in the ninety s biology is increasingly becoming more and more for an engineering discipline in life becomes raw material for us to exploit the news and extract value from an engineer. An engineer in many different ways so I got really interested in that was predicting a future take. Designers would be called upon to design leaving biological products. Once engineers engineering them designers come into to designed and I found a suppose picked both the exciting but also extremely challenging failed. There's needs to at least explore. Some fair does What we refer to those ontological issues that are being raised from the sweet as Asian and we can now use in such a way and I think one of the most important events to tap into as I was studying was the appearance of the mouse that human errands book? Don't know how many of you remember seeing it's So that was nineteen hundred. Five demoss was created using or the era of the most was created using our technology tissue engineering and for me as someone was educated in the art and design. It was surrealist. Dream comes alive but he can't live with their hands of scientists didn't really recognize majoring. Major kind of cultural impacted the image of alive naked mouse. Oh hello smiles with human. You're going on it's kind of being on TV screen and for me. It was okay if they're doing that. I need to move in was particularly interested in this very same technology because of its ability to stop living material but more importantly I was interested in the idea of tissue engineering without debris of mouse. So what does this year. For example as a sculptural object tells about our understanding is having a body. What does not you too you know? What does it mean to be alive to have bodies? What does it mean if I can take sales from you from other people and distribute them around world what it and not just humans so so the whole field of tissue culture? Tissue Engineering became an extremely interesting one for me because I could grow sculptures using living tissue. Keep the sculptures alive and that was one still one of the main challenges. We have of bringing living sculptures into nineteenth century institutions. which are the museums are designed to keep the things waved thing exactly but basically unchanged all ideas for them to try and get a slow time and if you bring something which is living and dying and evolving and get contaminated rated off those kind of things that freaks them really fix him out? Well also you were taking the you taking what they. What is their power in a sense which is to use these these tools to grow tissue culture you know? This is a very kind of private specialized knowledge amongst very particular community. That is the community of science. Let's and he. You are some Bryson artist. Walking in and cultivating frog cells intimate that you then eight growing peak sales els porcine stem cells over wings. So you have pigs flying you know all sorts of stuff you really screwing with their head. But the funniest thing is that actually the support I received from scientists was amazing because the full field of tissue engineering it to time was just in its infancy and didn't know where it's going. What skills they need in order to do it and is a huge misperception about what artists do in the world? So sometimes we exploiters misunderstandings. They thought that we're going to make the beautiful. They thought going to communicate indicates and and create some kind of acceptance. But all we can do is artist. Great awareness that you were going to promote their work rather than critique it or rather than question mission you know because it's not even a critique of science it's critique of how we nagging behind is a culture in understanding of what life is while not so much. The science that technology technology to deciding to employ the knowledge that the scientists are generating in ways the tweezers society. We as a culture have no words or language to describe right. Did you have a comment and I just want to ask you. I'm sure you've followed this recent research where they can now grow Neurological or annoyed trains and in some million neurons or so that are in a network that show neural activity and now they're debating Is there a subjective feeling in this collection of brain cells which is functionally functionally equivalent to a tiny piece is area of the human brain. So I guess right away as you were talking now my thought was Would you have ethical concerns about creating organization based based art and if the answer is no then what would your artistic interaction be with the idea of a work of art with its own subject subjectivity. And what would be your duty of care. Is it's creating title Frankenstein exactly so those are really great question. We started exploring those questions in the late nineties. So in one thousand nine hundred ninety or one thousand nine hundred we already started the culture fish neurons and with the idea of what does it mean to grow at least kind of symbolic way fragments of brains outside of the original body from each there they were taken. Then we started to seek an extra interim we created a piece in two thousand one called fish and chips where we connected fish. Neurons to robotic arm to produce drawings owings and there was direct stimulation from environment that stimulated the neurons in order to produce those drawings detrick was taken by one of our researchers guy. Ben Ari we would develop seriously folks called meaty was working with retinue runs and now he's traveling dwelled with a piece called self so it's collaboration with team is just not Nathan Thompson. Another other researchers where he used his on sales used a PS technology which bisky took his skin cells made them into stem cells into nerve cells. GRUDEN F- sales over in a rare Felix roads that are connected to use a phonetic synthesizer display. Live with musician. Jim We traditions. So all of this is to say that here. We've been exploring during those questions of what does it mean to have things at least perceived to be responsive this Andy. I kind of stepped back from that because I treat me out. Oh yeah ask me. Alex sounds like in the logic of that project is. It's okay to torture and organize. His lungs is made from your own stem cells. Yeah that was one of the ideas that the it's like he doesn't I want to subject anyone else so we would subject on neurons into it and it's very likely that the response we got from the neurons does nothing coherent. Teach them screaming. It's like get me the fuck out of you. That's right. How would you know you need to learn their language so I love the fact that something free to add though? This is a good start. This is rich conversation conversation. But how would you describe as a poet. Your relationship to science is it is science your muse or yeah. That's a fascinating thing. I grew up with two people on my wall to start with one hand Solo. The other was called Sagan and and I a lot of teenage boys came into my room when I was a teenager and just walked straight out of that room so aw I was absolutely passionately in love with science and in high school was sort of discouraged from going down that route so I went down to not route but it just kept. I kept calling me and calling me and I find that in some ways they are completely different they have different framework sometimes and then others. They're so oh similar with without science you with both test you compute you. Guess you observe you connect. There's so many different ways that they come together and I would just love reading about science like I can't help it and I tended towards looking it physics and quantum physics and astrophysics so I looked outside of myself a bit of Hans Solo the Solo being that mercenary in in the Star Wars Saga. who was a bit of a head and you had a hand blocks to buy side? He his foreign pants and a wookey. Paul Sagan had big lapels and a gorgeous voice but he broke down science and science communication in a way that I can understand. He's COSMO's series. Just thought this is going to be my life somehow and I couldn't believe that it came to that and I always feel lacking on how you feel Baba but without a science degree. There's always that sense of insecurity when I'm looking at science but I can't help it. It's something I feel completely passionate. But after all those years of rating in you know more than any science degree would have given. You can promise you that and I'll just WANNA come back. Though to. That teacher was at a teacher. It was a scientist show but they thinking you of all people you truly in awe and passionate about physics. Well it's really funny. Those Myers Briggs test which. I'm sure there's a lot of scientists scientists who'd say that perhaps these aren't exactly scientific. They all came up with should be a scientist or an artist but to be fair to the science teacher. We were breaking breaking chickens in half and I've been a vegetarian since twelve so it was about biology and I was really backing off that and to be truthful I didn't know I didn't have the confidence to to go into science because I think if I was doing Dada Day after day after day I would have filed. I need chaos and creativity but I didn't realize you can get that in science But I just didn't know if I have nine. That physics was an option. I would have done that then. It's never too late no as you've proved RN. You're working at such a fascinating frontier. They as much going on now. In the life sciences I just did a series of programs on Synthetic Balaji which is a saint essentially using engineering principles to engineers synthetic life in all sorts of ways shapes and forms. which is you know has fabulous possibilities bility's but also fabulous concerns about what might happen if we create an organism that is then released into a population? What what happens? So you're working at such a frightening exciting excellent frontier-free aren't you think so. People are trying to make from scratch quick so they're basically trying to put together different types of chemicals to create something that would express Lifelike behavior in one of the most advanced. Groups are doing the Abasing acing Zurich in Switzerland and they realize in some stage that they would never be able to know if the successful or not so the employed philosopher to tell them if the work is going to work or not because the question of flies to realize was a philosophical question rather than a scientific one and so I think this is an ex extreme thing especially when we move now towards this idea of applying engineering logic. Living Systems engineers are not really philosophers to put it lightly. Well it's this idea. The two of engineering evolution to pick up Baba was describing to us. So do you see your role as being that philosopher North think artist of a very different role artists pointing the finger at places where we think philosophers to go so so we are. We are doctor carries the goal in the coal mine. Because you you know philosophers would rarely enter delib and what we do. And do the modal redevelopment seem to kind of get as many people involved not saying that this is the only model you can do is where we get artists to come and work in the lab experience into most physiological experiential. Way What it means to do those kinds of things. What are they learning? What are they doing? Give us a visceral sense because it this visceral. It's very visceral so but it ranges so we see yourself as a research lab. The deals with questions of life from the To ecological we seem to come focus. Focus mainly around the kind of the cell and tissue level and the idea of manipulating living cells and tissues. We also often go to the origin. So we are harvesting the cells ourselves. Yes we usually would win an animal sacrifice. For scientific experiment we would take the company buy products With and we are very much so when when I show oh my work I I often show us for some blood and guts and show death and show everything which relates to the idea of life and consequences of what does it mean to engage with life in such a mentor. We identify areas that need more cultural scrutiny driven by you know represent poets and philosophers and social scientists and geographers and whatever other people who have an interesting life but never have direct experience of engaging life that happens in labs all over the world by scientists and engineers should be doing more. Ah themselves to or are they too close to their work to understand the social ethical consequences some scientists are really good at doing that in the life sciences most of the scientists coming and because they are curious and end up acting as kind of utilitarian lead monkeys in the life sciences so much a scientist but the hyperbolic all around a life science is generating also many unrealistic expectations about the utility indication of. What's coming up in and outs of really genuine concern of sci-fi uh-huh really concerned about those unfulfilled promises? And how can probably trust is being eroded with things like the genome project and crazy promises that were delivered lever with it. There's a lot of a lot of bad sites going on then. Bed is a strange word. What is good sides? I mean there's a scientific methodology but how do you. How do he's describe what bedside sees on the other hand there's a little bad science sane and again that's a value judgement? I mean I get something out of everything that I participate in zoos but there is there is sort of bed out sometimes when you get on a high horse about something. Isn't this just anything that Sti- I identity for telling you all looking at things quite simply and just surface level and what are in saying about moral and ethical works by science and art sometimes people just push things for the sake of pushing it in. That's not interesting. So and also it's subjective objective objective. What what I think's bad you might not think spared but I think there's bad all over the world Especially akin to science are. It's just sitting the science spice. It's very easy to get to go. Oh Wow wow look at that an artist doubling with scientific knowledge. ooh But then war attempt to diagnosis. What you're talking about a good Canadian Margaret Atwood was asked so is there is writing for expressing your emotions and she said no writing is not for expressing your motions ratings for evoking emotions in other people and I think great art really understands that and takes it to his as far as it can as a technique take and a lot of people that decide? I'm going to communicate. Science with art are more interested in the science than the art. They're just like these are important. Ideas has let's try to get them to people by putting window-dressing on it fails as art so I think the intention to have it work as a as a performance or and as a work of art having the design process be taken as seriously as any other genre of art and it's also about science. That's when it works really well but if it's if you think your message is what makes it worthwhile. That's kind of narcissistic master. Batory even as well but Ralph until my students if you have an interesting story to tell it doesn't really matter what technology used to tell it and that's right that's riding any kind of riding if you just want to hear yourself then Pepsi something else fantastic. Can I please get you thank Oren Katz Baba Brinkman and Alicia sometimes sometimes joining me from the Quantum Woods Festival biological artist Professor Oren Katz Rapper. Baba Brinkman and poet Alicia sometimes thanks to co produce. Jane Lee Sound Engineers David Lemay and Christie Miltiades and quantum festival directors John McCready and Sharon Flynn Dell from riding South Wales and writing W. A. on the Tesha Mitchell on twitter at Natasha Mitchell. Catchy next time by you've been listening to an A._B._C.. podcast discover more great A._B._C.. podcasts live radio and exclusives on the A._B._C. Listen APP.