David Chang


Welcome welcome welcome to armchair expert. I'm DAX shepard joined by modest mouse. Oh Monster Mouse. Ooh Monster Mouths. Are you doing monster mouse? Good in my apartment again. Love it here. Yeah when I arrive in. The door was cracked to grant me entry entry. There was a smell. Wafting out into the foyer and it was the most delightful inviting smell. You burn a lot of Nice candles in here thank you. I mean that could have gone either way could have been well. Oranges spoilt sure things. I'm glad it was the candle. Is there a specific sent rivers edge Woodsy earthy actually was Hack Nuclear Holiday Winter Candle? Okay well you would never know. Never well today. We have a really fun guest. David Chang David. Chang is an American restaurant tour and author and television personality. He is the founder of the Momofuku Restaurant Group restaurants in New York Washington. Dc Las Vegas Angeles Sydney in Toronto. We've eaten at several. These in Bozeman delighted he also has the TV show on Netflix. Ugly Delicious Breakfast lunch and dinner in the mind of chef very much enjoyed talking to David and I really really appreciated his honesty and You know he's an industry that's being hit the hardest right now so I appreciate his time side. No you may hear a few audio issues at the beginning of this but we sorted it out pretty early into the interview so hopefully that will clear up quickly. There was some mechanical technology difficulties. This is the time we're living in and we're learning and growing so if you think the audience a little dicey if I hang in there it gets fantastic and I hope you enjoy David. Chang guys are you. I'm good hanging in there. Are you held up in New York? No we're staying right outside at a friend's house because in Korean Culture. The the one-year birthdays like a really big thing in March. I A lot of family in town. Smaller the place in stock so I couldn't keep them all at my apartment and I asked one of my friends who has several rooms in a house that was himself was like. I need a crash at your place for the foreseeable future. There's a ton of people right now. It's been a traumatic three weeks or four. I don't even know how long it's been anymore. I would imagine for you. It's gotTa Be Twenty Times more stressful because of all the different industries. That are getting hit the hardest. The restaurant industry is just in a shambles. Yeah yes it's one of the most exposed businesses right now and. I'm trying to be optimistic but I WANNA know what the Florida's and I don't know anyone that hasn't laid off a ton of employees in my industry and that's you know honestly like I don't care about restaurants right now you know. People find a way to feed themselves in a variety of ways and thank God. They're still restaurants that are open to take win delivery. The biggest concern. I have is for all the employees that were undocumented or documented. They don't have a job right now. So that's not nice to think about well and especially your setup primarily in New York right so the majority of your employees are all living in a city that is. Let's say it's not too cheap to live there. You can't really just kind of float along for a while and that sort of the discrepancy. In the recently passed stimulus bill is expenses New Yorker very different than for employees and say Las Vegas Trento or California and it's been a whirlwind. We have a really good team and we're trying our best and that's the hardest thing I know that we have people on our teams that are like. Hey you need to do a better job and I don't disagree but we're doing our best in a situation where no one could have been prepared. I can't imagine they taught this class at culinary school. So it's like when you have to weather a three month shutdown due to a pandemic make sure you do X Y. And Z the. I think it's GonNa be Navy a little bit longer than three months to and that's all my friends and I in the industry peers are trying to sort out is what does it look like when you do reopen up so it's very murky now. Is Your wife Korean? She is or she likes similarly first generation. Like you yes. She's I jan. Her parents were born in Korea. And they're with us right now and I am one of the few people I feel like that absolutely adores the in laws. And how how old's your baby? If you hear him yelling stares he's just turned thirteen months. Spent mazing to be able to like give bath every night and I try my best even before this all happen to make food. You know practice lunch and dinner but that's really the only good thing that's happening Spending time with them and getting to see him almost walk. That's where he's at right now and I would say there's like another week before it's GonNa really take his first steps. That's the best thing if I was working. I definitely be missing it or I'd be watching on video or facetime so I wouldn't change that for anything because it's been a total joy to see him develop for us and I don't know a ton about you but I have to imagine you've been sprinting. Now for I don't know ten twelve years. Yeah no actually. I opened up. Who in August of two thousand four? And that was just me you know at the time like no one really wanted to work with me and now we have over fifteen hundred of we used to have over fifteen hundred and four years. Wow yes so I have to imagine just every step along. The way has been really time. Consuming energy consuming. It is nonstop and honestly I didn't know what to do until I you know maybe a month before our son was born. I was just freaking out because I did not stop like I work my ass off. I`Ma Addict to work might have an addictive personality. To begin with and work is though only sorta socially acceptable addiction. I'm a big time addicts work. Yeah first and foremost mom and dad are from Korean debts from North Korea. Yeah moms from South Korea. Both my parents were born in. What is now? North Korea My mom came from a very well to do family. Where a lot of like I would say. Intellectuals lived in my grandfather who work in the government guests in effect. You sort of attorney general at the time and my Dad's side basically came from nothing and he was born on what is now the border of China and Korea and they lifted the war. They lost everything. And it's a whole horrible story ended up itself. Yes so how? Did they meet? This is like literally the story that I've been told they were at a picnic with some friends from my dad's older sister and my dad saw my mom peeling an apple with a knife. He's like wow. She peels it so well. I Have Z. Criteria I don't know how much I believe that hold us. That's in when Harry met Sally or sleepless in Seattle. I forget which one sleepless in Seattle. There's an apple peeling with a knife scene into someone fall in. Love is resolved it has to do with the love. Of course now dying to watch your mom peel and I have to imagine it's borderline Rodham. She's really good at it. So what what age were they when they came to the US so my dad came to America in one thousand nine hundred sixty three and he moved to New York I think it was pretty traumatic for him and his wind up washing dishes. And you know living what you believe as Real immigrant experience just getting any kind of our job and making your way through that I think he was here for like three or four years and then he came back to create and that's what he meant by mom and then they came back making sixty eight or sixty nine and My Dad was working in restaurants on the more of a front of house level and then And then my sister was born. I seventy nineteen seventy but at some point they end up owning restaurants and even a golf store is accurate. Yeah my dad basically a hustler. I there's giant sections of my dad's history that will never be known. That's exciting. Yeah I have no idea like how he wind up in New York and I guess he worked in restaurants going all the way down to the mid Atlantic wound up in Washington. Dc how he wound up owning a restaurant is is crazy to me and there's crazier stories like somehow. I think for a year or two. He lived in some small town in Kentucky and again having a Korean Dad is is not always easy to get any information out of well now historically in La. There is a path for Korean immigrants. Which is that you know. There's a huge community. They often on a community level. Raise money and loan money to new immigrants to start? Small businesses. Was any of that happening for him. Out there yeah. That's how he actually got into the Gulf business and he wound up getting out of the restaurant business and I don't know how she had some foresight into golf. And that's basically what I did for five to two like fourteen or so just playing every day but around that time he got in the Gulf business. And they're probably I'M GONNA say twelve to fourteen tree and men that divide it up the Washington. Dc Area Oh no shit Maryland DC in northern Virginia and at the time they divided it all up. But I think they'll pull their money. The people that had the most money obviously took the best locations in that area the wealthiest occasions my dad being the poorest at the time was given Route seven in Leesburg. Virginia Tyson's corner and that's before Tyson's corner became one of the biggest shopping malls in America. So she was like given the worst worst location and wound up being the best location. Ono's yet yeah. Yeah was called. Tyson's Washington Gulf Center and it was in a dilapidated warehouse. But you can't call something center if you've only got like four hundred square feet right. It was it was big and it's sort of like you know such a long time ago recollections of basically looking like Costco just like golf clubs and balls everywhere just stocked on the floor and you know my dad's whole thing was spend no money on how things look sure sure. Did you work there as a kid? Yes I did so I have a lot of class warfare stuff and I'm going to get into that with you. When it comes to fine. Dining I was a real reluctant adopter. Ka Fine dining because it just screams rich people and I feel less than in judged when I'm in a fine dining place so I wanna get into that later but then also kind of does that to me so if I had to pick the last group of people I'd WanNa be interfacing with on a regular. It'd be like rich dudes looking to golf on the weekend. I was too young but I don't remember where we were too. There wasn't like old money coming to us. Okay it was just so barebones that I feel like people that went to buy something there. We're going there because it was like discount. Okay right right wasn't it wasn't like Caddyshack Not Mike. Not at all but if my dad any similarities. It's a little bit like Rodney Dangerfield. But yeah it was working the cash register me breaking down boxes and then when. I got old enough now to re drip repair golf clubs and I did that. When I wasn't practicing playing golf like my dad was pretty ahead of his time in regards like now. It's like a joke. If you're creating American that you want your son or daughter be like golf star and When I was playing golf there were no other Asian people on the golf course. Well Yeah I was thinking 'cause I'm four years older than you and I was thinking like. Oh His dad was following the tiger woods playbook but now there is no tiger woods. Play book at that Point Right. I mean I actually knew about tiger pretty early on just from playing competitor goals. You know that was a sobering thing when you're when you're like eleven twelve years old and you think you're really good and you learn you're never going to beat this person. I think most people in the to or felt that way for about a decade. What kind what are we looking at handicap for you at your peak depending on? Don't bullshit me David probably around scratch. Oh my my Monica. Does that mean anything that is? You just spoke to completely different language. I've no idea what he's scratch means. On average you're hitting par on every hole like say it's a first three than a portfolio than a part three par. You're getting at the end of the round. You're not above or below. Which is that's very very rare rare rare but I didn't know what was going on because I was so young when I was playing and You know my whole world surrounded in center on Gulf or religion and what religion Presbyterian and you know. I basically burned out once. I just didn't have that mental game to play competitor golf so that was pretty hard. Yeah also did you experience. All that like very stereotypical first generation Asian parents type of pressure. Oh yeah it would be seen as abuse of parenting today for sure but walk me through a day in the life of a teenage first generation. Korean I just always remember some kind of punishment right and it wasn't always like physical. I don't know you know what like I talked to my brothers about it. We're always in a state of fear that we're not doing a good enough job when you to work harder and are just remember. My Dad always saying like hustle. You have the Hustle Hustle and a lot of that was manifested in the golf course when I say about playing golf like most of my memories are on a golf course because I would say hundred fifty days. A year for ten years was playing goal. 'cause I was one of a bunch of tournaments when I was younger so the expectations for new or maybe a little bit higher and I mean I saw pretty early on. There was a different standard of how you know the kids. I was friends with that. We're all like white kids from you know. Let's say upper middle class families where being traded in Gulf wasn't the center of their life they had other hobbies. Whatever War I just? I didn't have that option. So did your parents care about academics or were they just pushing the golf thing. One hundred percent fills definitely the Gulf thing but the weird thing how create immigration happen? I think is similar to a lot of immigrants that came here. They're SORTA two classes for KRENZ. You know a lot of people that again. If it wasn't golf was in church and a lot of people at Church that were considered like. I won't say the well to do they. They were on these because they were doctors. Or engineers academics. And then you have everyone else. That was a data owner or dry cleaner owned several level. Or something like that so it was a very like weird to caste system in some ways super similar to the Indian Migration Story. Yeah Yeah and so like my dad was like always do better in school but I think he saw pre early on that. I had no aptitude so my sister was the real bookworm strenuous student. It didn't mean that he wasn't demanding of like getting the best grades. But I you know I talked about in the book that got pushback publishing because of this Kobe. Nineteen like took a long time for me to process it but I was so scared of my dad that I couldn't really achieve in academics. Because I was so scared of a punishment your values just run running rampant psych myself out and I never did well at school ever. You grew up in what what would be a DC suburb basically. Yeah a Virginia. It's weird though because I spent a lot of time in Virginia like proper. 'cause I think the south doesn't really start until you get the Richmond right. Yeah and my dad had a business there and I play a lot of tournaments down there so I would probably go to Richmond every weekend. That's honestly was like instrumental in my life. Because I got to see what American food actually really was now. How much is being Asian by? I can't imagine you're one of a thousand in your town. Probably or the northern Virginia wind up having a lot of Koreans. And that's why the church is so important in so many Korean American immigrants because there's a huge population Chicago Atlanta has one obviously California. You mentioned but the Korean population in the DC Virginia area is pretty huge. Okay but like I just never fitted with cream. People and I did a fit into our traditional whites. You Monica could have a real long off. Did you want to be white? Monica wanted to be white but one hundred percent with my brother. My older brother all the time. It's like my older brother's name is young. Mom and dad gave you David. You should sit back and just the whole thing from how. My brother doesn't eat a lot of Korean food. Because of the scarring just being made fun. Oh that's unfortunately a brutal way to grow up. Oh yeah I resented everything being Korean and you know. The funny thing is by being honest about this now Monica. I wonder if you feel the same way by saying how much didn't WanNa be creamed back. Then Yeah today twenty. Twenty there will be Asians that like fuck you Dave Chang. How can you say that I was like? I'm not saying that now. I'm not saying I felt like I didn't WanNa be created yet but people aren't listening to that. I totally agree and I talked. We talked about it all the time on this podcast and we have another podcast since a relationship. One that I talk so much about these early experiences and trying to distance myself from my ethnicity so much and yet there's a lot of backlash it seems that comes back but I almost think it's it's fear based I think when I hear people responding like because how can you argue with someone's emotional ride. You can't and it was different then indefinitely way different for you. I mean slowly gotten better for people of different ethnicities. I think but it's just hard. It's just hard to be different. Yeah it made it feel like whatever I didn't fit in like magnified like ten axe but I ate too. You know the customs that we had and the names and the whole nine it was just like oh how am I ever GonNa fit in here because it's not even all these other secondary tertiary things? It's how I look is why never gonNA fit it. I'll add as well even the black community. You couldn't be more marginalized but at least in the black community. You have all kinds of different celebrities you can point to Farrah aspirational people who've achieved success in comedy. You know dramatic actor. Stars of TV shows sports. Heroes for both of you. There's there's really no one in the popular. Zeitgeist is that is crushing. Has the Korean ordinary Indian? That you go like well it. It could be fine. I could turn out to be Eddie Murphy. Yeah you you just have white people the point to so you think you have to be close to that is you can get in order to have any sort of success. That's why you know parasite winning the sweeping. The ostrich was such a monumental moment for Korean people at least in America because they're like Holy Shit. We have someone that we can root for. That's actually Korean. Yeah so your brother didn't like Korean food which I get you. Were not in that same position as you liked the food. It was interesting because I ain't really well like my grandfather's side on my mom's side. They were well to do and he was basically Japanese in the early nineteen hundreds Japan Colonized Korea. You know there. There's a lot of old wounds that maybe never will be healed. From Korea's perspective increase basically been the doorstop for Asia for China and Japan. Away like he was raised so they took a lot of the well-to-do and smart Korean men and women and basically taught them in Japan so they basically brainwash them to be their proxies in Korea. Just slowly like simulate Japanese culture back and he didn't like Korean food. My grandfather food each happenings foods so when I get to Japan on land when I smell the food there if feels more like home than me than I wanNA landed interest some weird. I got all sorts of Weird Shit going on in. Cranston was something that my mom's an amazing coach. My my mother's mom is an amazing cook. Mike Dad's side. Were a horrible cooks. And I've always jokes Taylor to grandma's you know a lot of what Korean food is always say from a Western perspective. Pretty gnarly like Kimchi. Smells LIKE BARRY? Pungent and the fact that it's popular now is crazy to me because it was the same foods that I was vilified for so my brother who emulated growing up was like. I don't want anything to do with this food. I'm never eating it and I wanted to follow that and I was like. Oh I also won't eat this food and I think there was probably a good three or four year stretch was like I'm not eating creative food either this crap when I crammed food. It was always at my house. I never would ever bring trained food to school but I do remember when kids would maybe come over and how much the next bay or if it came over on a Friday Monday. Everyone would say Dame's house smells like coup. That was flavor. Okay that's not what I would lean Kimchi too. I mean you can't argue. That doesn't have a specific smell but certainly the bullies are really interesting. Getting will they shit? The bet on that one so food I think had unfortunately a traumatic experience from particularly Korean food as as younger kids or what you did quite often what what can be empowering for people who've been the victim of abuses to at some point confront their abuser when they feel strong enough to do so and the fact that you rejected so much and then ultimately embrace it in such a profound in public way. I have to imagine. It's Cathartic on some level. One hundred percent you know. It's just like I'm working this out with my therapists in front of everybody and he had. Yeah so so I guess now it kind of makes sense because what was curious to me as you went to college went to trinity you studied religion again. God bless Ya but when you got out you end up Japan. What was your gateway to Japan other than Granddad? I was horrible student again and though like I couldn't get a job like everyone else. This is like the DOT COM GRAD. Ninety nine and I didn't WanNA answer. What the Fuck I was going to have to do so. I literally went to the career fair. I've made a right and it was a teaching English in Japan Corporation. And I said I want job here and two gave it to me and I didn't think really anything about it. So did you speak any Japanese and I didn't even have any care. I just needed to tell someone. What are you doing so I could tell? I didn't really think it was GONNA to go. You know what I mean like. This is just something I'm going to tell people I'm doing. It'll never come. Yeah and then it came and then I went and it was pretty hard the actual teaching of the English or just being in Japan all of that. It was a Jacksonville Florida but hotter and not nearly as Nice. If you can say such thing off well that really Entire list where I wanted to go was like Sapporo Tokyo Kyoto and they gave me my place. I would never have chosen. Which is a small village called Zuni? Dettori in my backyard was a rice patty. Wow well again probably awesome for five or six days. No nobody is awesome and I just I struggled and I think that was the onset of me. I've seen a psychiatrist since two thousand three that was like we can count like pretty much can point. That was the first real manic episode. I had where I was. I was like on cocaine. Like twenty four seven hunt with mania. Yeah Okay I lasted about four months and in that timeframe though there was one rahman shop there. I was too nervous to go there. Because that's where all the local villagers would eat congregate and I wasn't GonNa go in there and sure enough when I said I couldn't take it anymore and I wanted to but I couldn't get a transfer I'm just GonNa go in there and and I've eaten Rahman my entire life never an actual Ronin shop and I walked in. I saw all these hard boiled eggs in bowls and it was just like a great place because you can just eat a hardboiled egg. Put some salt on it in my drink a beer wait for your Rodman and it was like it was almost like a pop now. I ordered a Balram in. I only eat them once because I was so scared of going in there and it was one of those you know radically moments where I tasted this. I was like Holy Shit. This is so good and growing up loving instant Romanian. I didn't know that it was like a real thing. Yeah how how does it sound like such a dumb question but yeah? What's the most profound differences between what I've eaten and then what you had? They're the best way I can describe was having really bad frozen. Concentrate orange trees right in thinking. That's orange juice can try and then you get beautiful perfect fresh squeezed and you're like Oh shit. This is what worship says. Yeah I could look back at it the same way. And they're making the noodles there. I assume right at the restaurant or in the brothels milky twin quotes abroad so it was like almost five poor goodness and it was awesome. Twenty like you can only connect the dots later in life. Yeah in college. I wanted to drop out to go to cooking school. But my dad basically convinced me. Otherwise and I was never going to fit in the corporate world. No matter how hard I tried so like cooking with something bad I wanted to do but my dad worked his entire life effectively so I would never work in restaurants because he knew how hard life was even though I had an inkling to do it. It's not something I ever thought it was going to actually do so. Even at that time I was twenty two. I wasn't thinking that I'm GonNa make professional cooking like not it. I was GONNA come back and I was going to get a job in finance and working in food was the furthest thing from my mind when I got back to New York City but you end up at the French Culinary Institute. So how how did you end up? I got a job for about few months. Basically being a corporate desk over. I think it was pretty influenced by Office. Space the movie. John and I had existential dilemma in crisis at the age of twenty two. I was like this is what people do every day. You type of keyboard do some stupid shit and you make some phone calls you get yelled at and you got your desk and you go home. You're so tired and you pray to God. You don't have to go to work the next day. It's like this the horrible existence in college. I learned about this thing called negative. Which is what the early Catholic theologians would think about and meditate on to get closer to what God is because you can't know what God is because he's ineffable omniscient but if you say God's not this microphone God's Not Computer God's not this Cup of water if you did that all the time you get a little bit closer. That's a pretty easy logic that I would have liked to my life so I'm going to start to do all these things that I'm not supposed to do almost like George Costanza and it's going to give me a little bit closer to maybe what I WANNA do the for a year or so. I did all kinds of job everything that I thought I could try to do for like two or three days and then I quit and I was like you know what I think. Cooking is for me but I don't know I know that working in this desk is not for me to French. Colonies to and we're you immediately. Great in cooking school like are there prodigies. There are people that are more gifted at cooking another like any other field. I would say I've met a couple of people that are real geniuses in cooking. But they didn't go to cooking school. But for the most part you have to become great and some people have higher altitude being great and that might be how you move into kitchen your knife skills your precision and all of these things but for the most part when I started cooking. I was one of the students anyone's ever seen okay. I'm fucking spouse. I only know one way of getting anything done. And that's throwing everything I have to a problem. That doesn't always work so well with a partner right and truth be told my first partner level ones. So they're six levels in Brooklyn School. She refused to be my partner on level two. So she told the the chefs. If I have to be David Partner I'M GONNA quit school and they suddenly David's partner so she quit school rugby. My whole wow. That's a strong vote of. Yeah just to give you an idea of what what a mess. I was as a human like I really was just fucking mass. And so what was the turning point? You went to work for craft at some point in the middle of this. Yeah I mean that's another thing. I just started work for John. George Osborne cooking school and I just started pouring myself into the profession and I was like. I'm just GONNA do everything. I'm GonNa do everything I never used to do. I'm GonNa pour myself into this study and just became infatuated with all aspects of cooking and like a year later in the day off. 'cause I was answering phones at craft before it opened up on my two days off from working at Mercer Kitchen I was like this. Is The restaurant that I wanna be at and maybe I like this because it's not that I love it. I can't imagine doing anything else right now. I just poured myself into it and craft was like winning the Lotto for me because the team there was that Thompson assembled was like broiled class and they wouldn't even accept me as free labor. They were like you know what we don't need you. Thanks Brian very much. You you suck and You know we need a reservation so I was like you know what I just sense. The greatness there so I would do whatever I needed to do to get my feet indoor. If I have to answer phones I'll do that. I did that for few months while still finishing up cooking school until I could actually work for free. Yeah that's how it all happen. So many people took me under their wings and I learned so much there. Stay tuned for more armchair if you dare. We are supported by stitch. Fix wouldn't it be great if every clothing store you shopped at had your size I would love it the styles you like at the prices you want yes well. There's a company focused on making that happen in the world of clothes shopping. There are no consistent sizes. Why should we have to try to guess if a medium is really a medium or consistently have to return close purchase online to find something that fits perfectly stitch? Fix is a personal styling company. That MAKES GETTING THE CLOTHES. You love effortless. 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Sign up for your trial today at noon. That's an m dot com slash tax. What you have to lose visit NEUM DOT COM SLASH DAX to start your trial today. That's an OEM DOT com slash tax. When you're at craft and then you graduate cooking school and they start letting you cook in that kitchen. Is there anything that you recognize? Oh I do have a niche here. No it's not a niche. It is very much a rigid caste. You're the lowest person there and you have to work your way up till you get to the top and I saw very early on my role was I. GotTa do whatever they tell me to do. Right and what I learned though was it wasn't an aptitude. I wasn't naturally gifted at it. But what I saw about cooking. That was very appealing to me was man if if I do this every day I get better at it right well. The golfing was probably great training for this in a way because it very much yeah. Golf is such a baby steps baby. Step Bay just Mike. Rowe improvements over years. It taught me a lot because I'm pretty lazy person by nature but I get competitive as a motherfucker on. That's yeah that's helpful and Gulf turn me unfortunately into a total lunatic in terms of competitiveness. And that's how I viewed it was. Oh for me to get to this person's position I need to be better than this person. How am I going to get there? When I opened up in two thousand four. No one wanted to work with me. Not One person it gives you insight to how bad I was. What do you think the people would have if if you would have invited someone to be a part of it and they say I won't work with David for X Y and Z? Tell You 'cause I've asked them all my friends to. You're not that good okay. You are never been a sous chef you wanna make Romuald the fuck. You're talking about because you know after I cooked for craft like I came back and went to Japan because I felt like there was unfinished business and I wanted to work there and I learned a lot in Japan cooking. Living Japan was like a life changing experience. Because I learned a lot about myself because Japan's such an expensive country particularly food and I had like an piff Ni but I came to the realization that I could eat really well. They're cheaply and that. That was a weird thing because back in America in two thousand three. If you said you wanted to go to a nice restaurant food people think. You're like a snob right. Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah I would have been people calling someone snap. Yeah because you weren't wrong because you couldn't eat well there. The the whole idea of eating well was yet fast food to eat a nice meal. Meant like some fancy French restaurant that was just exclusive to anyone else other than White People. So it was really elitist. It wasn't democratized at all yet. No not not at all. So this is the weird thing that. I had the realization where I was cooking Japan. I was like wait. Everyone's actually eating. Well I most of my meals at convenience stores like the seven elevens their equivalent like some of the best food. I had weren't like convenience stores like sandwiches noodles. I have the stereotype of Japan and the Japanese work ethic and I guess also through their engineering and vehicle manufacturing which is the only field. I know a lot about. There's meticulousness to their work. Ethos that is evident in their product. So that what's happening with the food? Is there like an attention to detail and meticulous or is it? They're using real ingredients. That aren't process like we're using here. What was the distinguishing factor? That made it all so good. They just care more like. Have you been to Japan before? No I'm dying to go. It's one of the one of the only places Monica I want to. It's the greatest food culture in the world in my opinion and everything's good in. Everyone knows more about food than anyone else in their food culture. Just it goes back like a thousand plus years there restaurants that are like four hundred five hundred years old killed right so but like that all trickles down to everything in Japan is just a little bit better because they care more they just simply care more and like an egg salad sandwich. Would you ever buy an Egg Salad Sandwich at American seven eleven? I'd be terrified? I would imagine it had been made a week before minimally. Yeah well the logistics there in Japan is like the constantly being made somewhere and being shipped to these places. So it's very fresh and it's made with delicious ingredients. And IT'S AMAZING. The Egg Salad Sandwich at a lawson so that convenience store is one of my top five things will ever eat. I want to see now. You're talking our language bean stores. I could walk down the street and I could just buy like. Niko which steen stuffed dumpling of sorts. And it's like fifty cents and it's delicious and I was like wait foods. Amazing here in the cheap food. That's just as good as even the McDonalds is fucking unbelievable in. Ooh We need a rectangle. Sam We need chicken sandwich. Burger King over there. You know what if I go to Tokyo? Mcdonald's because I'm telling you that they say they still fry their fries in beef fat tallow so Donald News mcdonagh does McDonalds McDonalds now really quick so I read kitchen confidential. When did that book come out around two thousand and two thousand two thousand one? Yeah okay so I read that book and I was like. Oh Wow if I had not gone into comedy. That would have been my life. The kitchen life is a bunch of party animals sex crazed drug laden terrible hours. Everyone's fucking each other. I'm like I'm in. That's my kind of culture. Were you experiencing that at Kraft? Did you like that especially given the kind of Cross Your T.'s? Dot Your I's childhood was that chaos appealing so when I first got to craft what I love most was how serious everybody was. It was like you entered like a surgeon's room but the moment service ended. It was like going to a party right right. It was work hard. Play hard and also during service and this is why I've always deemed as like a healthy kitchen is when people are making fun of each other. I was like Oh this is perfect for me. It's like who could hurt. Someone's feelings the most like this is exactly where I need to be. And you're making really delicious food but like there's different kinds of kitchens and I was close with Tony and he wrote about kitchen culture. That was very real at that time but it didn't exist at certain levels in my opinion like the restaurant like kraft was only about food. I could've been naive but I never really saw anything because I was always just working on the food. Everyone was so fucking busy cooking that you couldn't do anything else and it was pretty hard core. There are a lot of crazy stories. I've seen a lot of crazy shit because kitchen. Culture thankfully has been updated. Where do you get the ball? Start Mama Fuko. I'm probably so long as well. No no no more Fu so again like following the footsteps of my brother. My brother Love's allman brothers. So I love the allman brothers. You know eat. A peach. Became like one of my favorite albums and when I was studying everything before I left for Japan like anything you know anything in became my hobby after the first trip to Japan and I I learned that the guy that create a cup of noodles was named Momofuku Ondo and I curse all the time and I was like this. Sounds like motherfucker? That's a great name and I'll use it if I ever restaurant called Momofuku Peach logo. After Japan I worked for Danielle Balloon and injure calmly NIETA upper east side. Institution called Cafe Balut. And you know at this time I was getting better but I didn't know what I WANNA do because at the time. Then if you wanted to have your own restaurant you had to get tapped by the chef so for example if I spent enough time with Daniel Balloon in one of his patrons decided hey. I want to open a restaurant in Boston. Do you have someone that I could hire? And that's how you get a job working. Yeah and I was happy and I was like probably if there was like sixteen cooks in my ranking I was like fifteen and I was. I'm never I'm never going to be better than everyone else around that time. I had my first manic experience on the depressive side. Yeah and things were going south of my family as well and then all in I was also working like fourteen. I don't know what fourteen sixteen hours time six days a week but it was like crazy amount of work and I just was like losing my mind and my mom's bed and cancers for twenty four years. My brother was in the midst of pursuing my dad and all this crazy shit was going on and my reality was like melting away and I was not in a good place so that was another reason why I had to leave and one of the reasons I started Momofuku was I reached a point. I was like fuck it. Who cares you know what I mean like using that sort of that equation of like what's the worst thing that can happen? Yeah right I might just Joe Myself Anyway. So who cares fight? Fuck this up. Who Cares can I ask what were the depths of that period? Did you end up having to quit the job? Were you unable to work? How destructive did that spell? You know. It's funny it's like throughout my life. I feel like I wanted to ask for help. And Even Times. I think I've asked it in college or even high school and high school was pretty traumatic for me to like there's a whole nother like. I went to the private school that produced the last two Supreme Court justices. Oh yeah you into short shorts town Pratt. Yeah got imagine your some of your classmates. Parents were like senators and Shit. So it wasn't a it wasn't a fun time for me so I I didn't really fit in and I am remembering highschool asking for help and people are like you're fine and then I never never asked my parents like. Hey I think I need to see therapists or psychiatrists like that doesn't exist in Asian American household right. Just don't do it. You know what the remedy is is. Stop crying suck. Yeah yeah toughen up yet I need help is is weakness right exactly. Yeah and the whole idea that you need someone to talk to or get medication on. That was just so foreign. That was never going to happen. So you know when I was twenty six. That's where I reached a point where I was like. Fuck it and did you self medicate. Oh my God yeah there we go. I mean man I was really good at it. E Yeah your baseline is feeling like a negative sex and drug even in its worst condition. Continue to to. You'RE GONNA pay that option in my experience. Yeah and because my industry also was like me even after college you go out every night I mean every night. I'm going to bed at four in the morning. Five sometimes sleeping in the locker room just to go to work in the morning. It's insane. I tried to block a lot of that out because it wasn't like that fun but a lot of drinking and I don't like to say that I had a drinking problem but yeah I definitely had a drinking problem. Sharp sharp while you're talking to someone with a drinking so it's okay you're in good company bad medicine for depression unfortunately ultimately find out really bad medicine and also smoking. Marijuana is really bad medicine at that time too. I knew things were not right just because I thought that we're going in my head ocean really bad place. It was just sad. You know I just was fucking sad. And they had no explanation for it so I knew I needed help and I remember a New York magazine at the time would always have these best of lists and I was like you know what fuck it i. I'm just going to call these people in. Try to find someone to help me out. And I think I saw one or two and they weren't right from me and then finally I found someone online. I started to see him and it was so expensive and health. I think at that time it only covered like three sessions per ever two months so it was really hard but that was the beginning that my life started to change and that was twenty six twenty six and I've seen them no. That's pretty profound one of the things that he specialized in childhood trauma. And I think that's what we've been working on all these years so there was therapy. There was the medication that I eventually got on and Opening up that restaurant was not something I thought about actually operating the goal of I just have to physically do something to get me out of this this Helen to have a purpose. Yeah yeah the day. We opened up. I was like oh I actually have to figure this shit out. Everything's against us. We're the underdog underdogs and we're going to just through sheer grit and determination. We're GONNA win. It gave me purpose to get out of bed. Isn't it the irony of asking for help being a form of weakness when you tally up the results of which are empowered you to be effective and productive and creative and not asking for help would've actually defeated all those things in you? The real weakness would have been to to not yes Florida's I. It's so ironic and I. I wonder if like my son will feel the same way. Should he ever have the need to ask for help? You don't like the way we grew up. What form media told you? That strength was asking for health. The vulnerability is year this first year. There would be sessions literally were. I wouldn't say a word because I was so embarrassed and I remember like having to come to terms with like. I can't tell anyone that I'm seeing a psychiatrist. I can't tell anyone that I'm on medication. And this is so embarrassing that I don't know what to do with myself and now here I am telling the world. This is what I did. So it's funny. How it all plays out I. That's the most money I've ever spent In my life is still on my psychiatrist for sure which is by the way the most valuable thing to invest in your mental health. This kind of dovetails into I mentioned the elitist thing which I have an issue with but then secondly I grew up in a blue collar area of outside of Detroit and you save money about a possession then you maintain the shit out of it. You treated it well and that's what you did in. You bought a house and maybe you got a boat at some point like these are. The notion of pain for experiences was a really foreign notion where I grew up. So you saved for objects and possessions that were assets and you could pass on and I dated a girl for nine years who worked in a restaurant. And she spent every dime she made at that restaurant at other restaurants. I was always a everyone. There did the same thing I was like. Oh you guys are making pretty good money. All things considered versus what I was making and they will just blow. I never saw people spend money like this on wine on food and as I've gotten older actually read some books about happiness Experiences are a better thing to invest in ultimately if you're just measuring it by what impact it has on your happiness and that ultimately possessions don't really give you much happiness so. I've come around to it for sure. But that had traditionally been my other reservation is like Oh you're just blowing this money. What's your relationship with that? As far as just making that something that you're going to invest in and indulge on and do you have to convince other people that that's a worthwhile endeavor in the industry. Hey I have a reservation at this restaurant. Let's go and even if you don't have the money you're gonNA find a way because like we're addicts were pleasure attics. We want that dopamine it somehow some way. Yeah and even. If you don't have the money I I've been that situation so many times like fuck it. Like Hey I remember like let's go to France and you know let's go to this restaurant. No one has the means to do it but we all find a way to make it happen. Yeah whether it's Max out your credit cards or whatever and you're just constantly in the state of paying off because you're pushing yourself at restaurants and it doesn't have to be the fancy fancy but it's like all your money goes back to eating and drinking. Yeah yeah it makes no sense whatsoever when you think it appears that younger generations have a much different relationship than than I did. They didn't have to fight it. They seem you know. There's all these articles being critical of them that they want avocado toast instead of a house. And I think there's truth to it but I don't know that they necessarily are wrong for prioritizing that but I would say Mama Fico is part of this revolution right but you got you kinda got disillusioned with the reservation fancy restaurant which led to you doing Mama Fuko but then ultimately then did create another Mama Fubo visit co- and that is a make a reservation online ten days in advance only seats twelve people. So how how did you go from? You know. This thing's broken? I'm going to do it this way too. Oh maybe there is a version of this. I WANNA do right. You know talking about Japan and eating well and not just eating well in Japan when I was able to travel throughout Asia. I'm eating amazing meal for like Fifty Cents. Shit like this is something that everyone wants to experience. And that was the next epiphany I was like. Oh fuck everybody wants to eat. Well it's just not accessible or it's expensive but it's not the case the only place where that's not the case as America and I was like it doesn't have to be that way and that's what Momofuku was was. There's gotta be different ways to eat food than eating at a fancy place on the upper east side as much as I love the food there in the restaurant I was like you know what there's gotta be something else. I thought this underground movement that had not been tapped into with food. Let's do noodles and let's try to apply the same sort of discipline and technical rigor that I've learned working at some of best restaurants and apply it to a twelve to fifteen dollars a bowl of soup. So could you leave having one of the best meals of your life affordably and that was really important to me and then now how? How did the reds version? So like we really ran. Momo like almost going out of business a variety of different ways you know so we didn't need a bar and then we did Samba which was starting off as a Burrito shop tree and Breda shop nothing we had ever planned on actually work the way it was intended to so I was so levered on banks and loans that I couldn't have this the original restaurant that was noodle bar that eventually moved up the street closed and we didn't have enough hot water there so the main reason why we did fine dining was we didn't have hot water. No she didn't give a shit about making fancy food. That was the furthest thing on my mind also. We had a situation here that if this restaurant closed by the health department we were. GonNa lose everything out of twenty seven seats a six hundred square feet. We're doing two hundred fifty people a day. It was like a real phenomenon. We literally did the math reverse engineering. So how many people can we serve with the water heater that we have and it turned out to be twenty four people so I don't want dining but like okay? What can we serve? That will justify the same numbers that we were doing for two hundred fifty people for twenty four people so we had to come up with fine dining menu. And that's how we did. Wow we didn't. We didn't do it. We the whole goal was stripping away the bullshit all the things you hate about finding Dax I hate to but people still should go out and celebrate and feel good in my metric was always if you have a teacher from Delaware that makes forty five thousand dollars a year and they happen to be a fan and they've been saving their money. I want them to come here feeling like they left in drop one hundred fifty bucks feeling like it was one of the best things I've ever spent money on the and it wasn't about trying to set a benchmark for people that could afford it. It was like how could we set an experience for people who had to save up money? That was worth it for them to save up. Yes yeah now. You're huge now and I see on TV. You have restaurants in Toronto in Sydney Australia as you. Just said Vegas Los Angeles at some point you transitioning into one of these Thomas Keller type. I know so little about this world but I'm aware of you as like food icon at a certain point and obviously it's gotten so big you must have brought in genius. People to help with this growth. Isn't that an incredibly hard thing than the APP? Navigate growth like that you know. Now we're blessed to have like some of the best and brightest people like I duNNo. I look at my office now and it's like everyone went to like an Ivy League school. They they wanna work here like what the fuck is going on you and all these folks are so good and they're just better than I am and that's that's what I always. I've just learned wait. You're better than this than I am. So you should do it. I just found. That's been my sort of management style is hire people that are smarter than me and just put them in positions to succeed. Yeah you're genius. Obviously is the creativity. Now this is the funny thing is I think my upbringing has done such a good job of me being sort of self denunciation of anything. I'm good at and I swear to God. This is exactly some of the times and hours. I spend with my shrink. It's like have a hard time figuring. What the Fuck I'm actually good at well especially because the people. We talked to interview regularly. A pretty common thread through. All of us is like this sense of being fraudulent one hundred percent. I think we all feel like well. Wait I'm not Anthony Bourdain. I'm not so and so so somehow a fraud because I'm not those guys but somebody wants to be David Chang and feels fraudulent about trying to be us. It's been really weird and I've been a bad boss in so many ways and I just tried so hard to like be better a lot of. That's been through therapy and I've had a historically bad temper and I swear to God. I'd say ninety percent of my time with my shrink. Why am I so fucking angry and I can actually tell everyone exactly why certain things now and it's crazy to me. I can unfold. This is how my emotions at this point. This is how I reacted to that. Because I've done so much analysis but for the most part when I think about whatever's happening Momo who I feel lucky as faulk into if it is something I tend to think that I may be good at I live in a world of sports analogies. It's like I'm that player that can't shoot or rebound or whatever but they're plus minus rating is always very high And the team wins. And somehow that's sort of how it plays out with me. Are you technically bipolar. Yeah so I would have to imagine as the thing is spinning up and it's getting hugely successful. I have to imagine that's a very dicey area for someone like you is. That did you have fits of highs during all that expansion. Well you know. The interesting thing was being medicated. And seeing my shrink on a regular basis. I think my highs were like not as high in my lows. Worn is low. The self medication is really. What fucked me up the most right. Right right yeah. It wasn't just a fraudulent or feeling like imposter syndrome. I felt like it was survivor's guilt. Then like it shouldn't happen to me. She happened this person over here because they're so much better than me. Like why the fuck is this happening to me. Yeah and in order to have that release. I would just drink my face off at night. You know yeah so you have ugly delicious right. I see that every time I opened up net flicks. You have breakfast lunch and dinner. Which Associates Gazon Kate Mckinnon? You have to be friends with Z's right he's like Foodie and the Ark by the way I think he's great for your industry in that I watch master none and I'm like Oh yeah it's cool to be super into what Taco you're gonNA eat in the middle of the afternoon to have that as like a mission of like no every single time I eat. I want to try to make it the single best thing I could consume in this moment where I'm at geographically is I I like it. I think it's cool you know. It's funny like weirdly. I got to know pretty deeply the world of New York City comedy. I think it started when we opened up the first restaurant. John Mullany in Nick. Kroll would go. Do they're sort of a routine at refusers? I think that was the name so they were just starting out. I was just starting out and I knew crawl from mutual friends and they would come over and we lament how careers were and from there like comedians just kept on coming in pro introduced me to a z's when these was still at nyu I'll know. Shit Yeah and like two thousand six so I. I got to know these people before anyone knew any any. Yeah right really weird. It's been fun to grow up together in so many different ways right. Yeah stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by masterclass. We Love masterclass. We've had some guests on that. Have hosted masterclasses now masterclass? Let you learn from the best with exclusive access to online classes taught by masters of their craft. You could learn the art of negotiation from Chris. Voss who we had on who we left writable you can improve your skills from Christina. Aguilera Mike do that. You're just saying that you want to learn to sing better. Yeah or learn the art of magic from our all my spend the rest of my weekend on masterclass should curtail just for your interest with over seventy five different instructors across tons of categories. Literally something for everyone. Now I again I go back to Chris. Voss the art of negotiation I just loved that masterclass I found it so fascinating. I highly recommend you check out. Masterclass get unlimited access to every masterclass and as armchair expert listener. You can get fifteen percent off the annual all access pass go to master class DOT COM SLASH. Dax that's masterclass dot com slash DAX for fifteen percent off masterclass. We are supported by better help. Now Gang it's a little rough out there right now so if you're struggling with stress anxiety isolation depression right now you are not alone now and if you're feeling isolated and worried about the state of things better help offers online licensed professional counselors. Who can help? I could not recommend this morning. What would it hurt to try? It only helps. It could only help now. Better help counselors specialize in issues such as depression stress anxiety relationship sleeping trauma anger family conflict. Lgbt matters grief self esteem more. I've got nine of the ten of those things just say I absolutely love the service so helpful particularly now where people are stuck inside. It's a great way to talk with a counselor and get working on some of the things that are ailing you all. You GotTa do you simply fill out a questionnaire to assess your needs and get matched with a counselor in less than twenty four hours. It's so easy to schedule the secure video phone sessions with the therapist. Plus you can exchange unlimited messages. Better help is a truly affordable option and armchairs. Get ten percent off their first month with discount. Kodak's so why not get started today? Go to better help dot com slash. Dax that is better help. H. E. L. P. dot com slash. Stacks talk to a therapist online and get help now ugly delicious. What season are you in We're onto we filmed breakfast lunch and dinner as sort of a b side to ugly delicious because filming delicious is so fucking heart because our travel and stuff or oh my God. I think it was sixty days to travel for me. Oh my God. You're not just for that just like trying to assemble these. Massive topics into some cohesive. Fifty Minute Docu. Series thing was tough and We wanted to do something fun and also a little bit quicker. So that's why Netflix and Morgan novel. Who won an Oscar for twenty feet from stardom in the Mr Rogers? Doc My partner and ugly delicious was like let's just try to do like a one day shoot and it actually proved to be fucking harder than anyone thought to sure. Sure because I found out a lot of these actors are like they're not acting twenty twelve hours a day. They do your thing for an hour and then you go back to your trailer right. Oh Yeah five months effort twelve hours. I'm acting forty two minutes of that. Twelve hours sane lines in front of a camera. Yeah and they're eating and it's just a lot. It's a pretty taxing thing. I will say the easiest one for sure was the one with Rogan. Where we're just so. I was so high that helps. He would only do it if I smoke the joint every hour off but that was the second season. And we're working on this show with Hulu so I'm doing a bunch of shows for Hulu right now and we're filming with Chrissy Teigen a TV show that had to stop production because of this epidemic. So that was that was like a crazy thing. Yeah could you say which side of all this you liked the mouse or you like it all or you hate it all. I don't know I don't think when I do media. It feels like work. I mean it does but it's not working in kitchens that right to me. What work is and it's so fucking hard and managing the restaurants is so hard but somehow I always again i. I always like an to an addiction. Ninety nine percent of it. I think sucks in restaurants one percent. That's what you're chasing. After all the time it'll keep him back. Yes in in in the media and I don't feel the highs so much it just feels like a pretty steady thing and I like it because it's been able to like give me a bigger platform and I want to be able to be responsible with that platform but I feel guilty. Weirdly to say that I like it. You know I mean yeah because it's not something. I know a lot of other chefs. Have that opportunity and I feel like a a wimp in some ways but I also like it because it allows me to keep my brain engaged in other ways and continue to grow but I will say you know as someone who really enjoys you and I think you're great at it. I think you're great at the media side. I think people were so confused by Anthony Bourdain. Because it appeared that he had the exact life we all fantasize about which is like perpetually on vacation going out and having great food drinking with people and having fun and I think obviously from his book at least we know he had addiction. I never met the guy personally but clearly some significant depression issues and I think it's relevant for someone like you for someone like me to go. Okay yeah. The grass looks green over there. I'm doing this. This is good. But man always haven't scheduled self-healing time self check in time all that being accountable to people. I sure hope. That's a part of your program and plan you know I'm trying I'm trying really hard and I know it's a problem when people like the first thing people say is. Hey Dave are you taking care of yourself when ten people tell me that in a month? I'm like Oh Shit. I think I'm I'm I'm really in it right now and you know. Tony. Tony passing was brutal for me because in so many ways he was a mentor. Like an older brother figure to me and When he died I think what was so hard for me was I was like that. Shit was supposed to happen to me. Not Tony Rights. And he's the Mick Jagger of your world that guy's supposed to be impervious something like that and we know we started talking about him asking for help and that that being a sign of strength and for good period of time. I was really mad at myself because I felt selfish. And whenever I would see Tony I think when I first got to know Tony really well we were just hanging and eat and drink and have an amazing time and and then I think it got a little bit less of hang because you realize like oh check I got I got to be like a. I gotta be like a respectable adult for him and help him out. I think that where I felt bad was he had to be so strong for everyone else that I don't know if anyone gave in return to him and I felt really guilty. 'cause I I wish I had said. Hey Tony like you're always helping me. What can I do for you? Yeah I don't know if that would have made a difference but I know a lot of people felt the same way because he was constantly giving to people. Yeah I think that these kinds of Alpha's it's really hard to imagine that they need someone to take care of them as well. Yeah there are so many occasions where I could have just had that simple conversation but as you know is someone who's wrestled with all of it. There's no real magic words right. It's got to be the person asking for help and becoming open to all suggestions and yeah. I think I was intoxicated. Just like everyone else's Tony's a even though there might have signs or things and you're just like she's gone through all this he's got he's got it. You know you know my good friend. Dave chose set the best and they had a very different relationship than anyone else because chose an addict in a variety different ways. He's like Tony just jumped from heroin to work never went to Rehab. He just cold Turkey. Heroin and Tony of severe addictive personality that was tempered over the years but It's scary for me for myself for two people that I care about that. Also have addictive personalities and. It's something that I never thought I'd talk about as much as I do. I'm so glad you do because again yours. Somebody's Tony it is incumbent. Upon you you own all of the vulnerabilities and the you know the struggles in and helps people not feel alone in. There's seen someone successful who still actively vulnerable and actively asking for help helps a road. This notion that you can succeed your way into feeling good but she. You can't do it absolutely and I don't know if I'd ever be this open about it if he didn't pass uh-huh because IRA really Russell is like well. If there's anything can be learned means that like it's stupid to bottle it all up and not tell anybody and I hate myself in a variety of ways and I always hate myself in a variety of ways. But if there's one thing that I can feel good about if it's just one person then then it's worth it but is it easy when you talk about all this stuff because I'm a for fifteen years so it's gotten easier you know. I go share my shit in front of strangers in whatever city. I'm working in and so I I it certainly I got used to it. You know. We'll do the first time I said I was molested. I had been sitting on that for fourteen years and I don't think I told someone again for another five and then someone again in a year and now I'll tell anyone really doesn't have the weight it used to but I'll tell you if I'm being honest it's a lot easier for me to talk about the things I've gone through as opposed things. I'm currently going through. That's still very challenging for me to go like oh no. I'm still fight being a scumbag hourly. That's like my DNA. It's gotten easier but I still do. There's there's potholes all over. Just walk out your front door. Yes so that's something I could get better at aspire to be better at that. The real time vulnerability the real time struggle. You know something. That's crazy that I did recently two months ago because I've been trying to like get the right medication for me. Yeah there was a couple of years where I decided to go off medication and I can look back and be like holy fucking Shit like I was so fucking out of my mind and thankfully I got back on it and it's always been hard to sort of get me to a place where everything's working right. Yeah I feel so sympathetic to everyone that deals with what you do because even if you find that magic recipe right your body then evolves. It's an ongoing right. There's no magic combination and like the way I've always described it feels like I can just get enough oxygen if I'm in the water right like I'm not drowning per se but it feels like I could at any moment after years of seeing my doctor like only recently. Did I found out like I'm bipolar? When I say three or four years ago because I'd ask them like what am I. Why would you want to know this David? I'm like Fox. Just tell me what I wanNA fuck it now. Yeah and weirdly like two three months ago because we've been trying to tweak my medication to get it better. He's like hey there's this. Dna sequence intest. That's offered right now and it just does your twenty two chromosomes that is most widely associated with your mental health and does a couple that sequences your liver to see how you process medicine and this is specifically just to get you on the best medicine for yourself. Yea and I sat on that for a long. But I just wasn't ready to do it because I felt like this was Gatica Shit and I was like I don't know these are moral dilemmas. And which opened up this. Pandora's box sounds like fuck. I don't know film in the show. Last year was hard when I say I lost my mind. I lost my fucking mind in Cambodia. He was just scrape place to lose it because in so many ways I felt bad I was like you know what this is. This is what Tony should be doing. What the fuck am I doing and and I was just getting ready to have our first son and I was just in a weird place and I was like shit like I needed to make sure that. Don't go down this road so we were like really trying to figure out the best medication for me and I changed a bunch of things and it just didn't work out and I fought like fucking. I'm just going to say yes. I'm going to do this and I got the results back. And it blew my fucking mind really. Yeah I was like oh it explained so much. It was a weird thing to be able to connect the DOTS and You know what was most interesting to me was like it almost immediately. I was like if this becomes popular. This is going to stigmatize mental illness immediately because he was saying. I'M GONNA candidate for Ketamine. There's something in my DNA that says I'm academy and Responder and haven't called the doctor yet because I'm GonNa be legally alantic. Ketamine dripped into me. Part of me is like yes. This is fucking amazing. This scary but he was saying they have a spray. Where if you're feeling bad Or you know you're going to go down episode. You can actually inhaling your nose and you're immediately going to feel better and I was like this is fucking crazy so effectively. It's an EPI pen for your emotions. I was like wait if you're a diabetic you know. No one's GonNa make fun of you because you're you don't produce insulin because we've accepted that as a society you know. Hey need to take medicine. We get that and I think that this may be a game changer. In how people can accept the fact that people's brain functions in their also we're starting to they're starting isolate some gut bacteria that is really common in different forms of depression. I mean yeah. It's all opening up. I think we're going to have such better options as we go forward and it's an exciting time. Actually I mean does he just got imagine yourself in eighteen hundreds dealing with all this stuff. I'm pretty pretty sure I would not be alive without I I don't think I would have made it either. Well David I hope everyone checks. You have a podcast. Can you tell me the name of your? It's a the Dave Chang show. It's on the ringer podcast. Network with Bill Simmons. And you know now that I have time I'm increasing frequency because I think we have the ability to tell stories for chefs. That are going through this real tragedy right now. The whole idea of like too small to fail as sort of this Hashtag Israel because if the economy almost class in two thousand eight because of these giant institutions. It's GonNa be the same thing if we don't help independent businesses. It's been a brutal three weeks or so talking to my friends that have basically lost. Everything potentially yeah. I been weirdly really busy talking to people from the government side actually trying to give them some insight as to what might need to happen to help out everybody. Yeah oh well that's great man. I'm glad that you're involved with all that. So check out your podcast ugly delicious and then treat yourself if you see them go sign anywhere will good luck getting a table but you see it when this is all over go inside. We've had a dozen amazing meals around the country at your restaurant. So thanks so much for doing this with us. Thanks appreciate it. Yeah thanks we. WanNa come eat with you and we're in New York. I will really love that. That'd be great. Well thanks a ton man. Thank you okay. And now my favorite part of the show the fact check with my soul mate and Monica pad men. We don't normal setup. Let's just say that right in this quarantine life of ours. We don't ever normal set up at the attic where we can really find tune. Everyone's levels in their headphones cam. And now it's just kind of one size fits all right. You gotTa hear whatever volume. I'm hearing what's curious as we also are using headphones splitter so it is conceivable that you're getting more output than I am. Oh do you want to switch? Which is see if it sounds the same to us. Okay yeah it sounds the same. Sounds the same baider-meinhof who knows I had? I've had a lot of better. Meinhof experiences lately. Yeah I forget what they are but I've said it a lot. I noticed you three times in the last four days and I always makes me smile every single time you say I love it. It's really the only thing I've retained from. These fact checks is remind. The only fact I've remembered is the definition of baider-meinhof which is frequency illusion. If you hear something or see something then you start seeing our hearing examples you get a red BMW three series and you don't feel like you see those at all but the second you buy that car everywhere you go you notice. There's millions of them. You're not unique at all. They're everywhere. Everyone has a red three series. I don't know that I'd say that's the classic example but an example in relate to buying a car and then noticing that Asahara now everywhere. Yes before is invisible to you. That's the one I remembered was Attribution error. I love that one. That wants some me up so much. Remember that when we learned that from here what was that one that is when someone cuts you off in traffic and you attribute their behavior attribution to a characteristic of them are a character flaw right so that person's a selfish that person's impatient as opposed to making a a summation of them contemptuously. That there was some situation that caused their behavior. Either they had to swerve to miss a dog or they were rushing to get a kidney to the hospital right. You don't know which it is. Yeah I'm really prone to just say people are pieces shit and make a real big character assessment. I don't think I do that very much. Yeah you seem to be in the middle. Meet me in the middle. Well I mean yeah. Maybe I'm in the Middle Truth. Be told I'm just not thinking about that person very much so it's not like I'm even like I just get annoyed for three for one second three and one half second. Yeah and then. I don't think like well. Maybe they're going to have to talk myself out of like a duck off a waters asshole. You just let it roll right off acid analogy and I am. That's the I think the goal forget trying to figure out. Yeah they're going. Who Cares? Yes yes that. That's the dream. I just don't need to be worried about what that person's doing. I can. Just be annoyed for one second and then move on. That's the dream that's the rim what is interesting is sometimes people. Are you know? There's some extenuating circumstances caused their behavior. But I'd seen more often than not. I'm right so much impatient FRIK. Kirsten would always think it's somebody's going to save a life in route to a burning building and I'm like everyone's a monster. I think percentage wise. I'm more often right. Okay I think in some ways you're right. I think people are acting like assholes. I don't think they're on their way to whatever but it's probably because they had a bad day or something's happening with them is causing this. It's not just that they're a bad person right right. Yeah yeah that's true that's true. I'm both things so so quite often. Having children makes semi impossible to get out of the house. So I'm often late or I'm trying to make up now. You could go well then. Just keep backing up when you start the process which is great. That's legit but boy. You know you gotta feed them and this and that and the packing and the tantrums in the Melt Bounds. Wardrobe changes all of it. Leaves me probably on the highways going somewhere later than we should? Yeah and I'm entitled trick so both things are happening. If I cut you off in traffic both people are gonNA be right situational and it was an entitled Prick but just because you had a hard time getting out the door in your late doesn't mean you have to cut people off. You can still just say sorry. When you get to the place you got and not make more carnage on your way well. Yes Oh here's another thing. I think of quite often is 'cause I both do it and I'm the victim or recipient of which is I drive fast. I like to fuck and drive fast. Joy It yes on for me like it and I. I never understood why anyone is getting maximum. Not inconveniencing them. If I'm in the left lane I go by going ten miles an hour faster near going. It no sweat off your back. There's nothing happening to you yet. Occasionally people will flipping off Hong or do whatever they do and I'm just happily with a smile on my face driving to work quickly. There's no aggression on my and there's no anger. There's no malice yet. I'll be on the highway and for whatever reason I'm not in the mood to go fast. I'm just listening to a podcast and influence and someone will blow me and my first thought. My Brussel is like God. That guy's aggressive. You might be there. Smiling listen to Christopher Cross sailing there might be no rush into it but it's funny because it's the exact same behavior but when I do it it's peaceful and loving and you just like to drive fast but when someone else. They're aggressive and impatient and all these things. Yeah but it's also that people driving insanely fast. It makes other people scared. So it's it's fair to be like this person's driving too fast because if even if if you were driving next year driving super fast and I got an accident with you and if it was my fault even like the chances at one of us are dead is way higher. Well I don't think so to be honest with you. I don't think the difference between crashing at sixty five and eighty is a big difference. Just percentage wise if you hit. Oh let's say this if you hit a wall anything over forty five your debts or fifty five or something. There's a point where the damage is the damage now at skin. Accordion quicker something. But I don't think there's a big difference between crashing into a Wallet eighty-five and crash into all sixty five. I think you're a goner. Maybe I don't know I really don't know I'm going to do some experiments. I'm going to crash into a wall sixty-five and say how I feel. We're GONNA crush eighty-five. Yuck this is an episode. That is very mental health. Heavy talk a lot about mental health which I love And he was so open and vulnerable about his struggles. Yeah it's hard. It's hard to be happy it. Isn't it always begs the question? Why why is mental health pandemic level? That's what was the first question when the DSM SAM was created and they started being able to administer the standardized tests to millions of Americans. That conclusion was either. This test is too sensitive. And it's labeling too many people with mental health issues or there's a pandemic of mental health. I'm inclined to think it's the lack of mental health. You mean I'm inclined to think it's the latter that there is pandemic levels of depression and different issues. Yeah I think it's very very common so common definitely and then you start. You have to ask yourself why it was this. The mental state of Human Beings one hundred thousand years ago. I can't imagine I was thinking about this the other day watching an animal show and I was thinking. There's no way an animal is designed and has evolved to live in mental anguish. There's just there's no upside to and then I just started thinking. It has to be a result of like this weird life. We have that were that. Were not designed to have yeah. I think it's a result of life getting too big Which also leads to higher levels of thinking which is great and has a ton of positives but also comes with some lows. So I think it's one of those like you can't have the good with the bad yet. It's almost it's like one of the issues has to simply. Just be the amount information you have access to. So fifty thousand years ago you'd being tribe and you'd probably be aware of one or two other neighboring tribes and that'd be your full extent of the knowledge of the world so you want me finding out that there's some earthquake in Haiti and then a pandemic in China then the stock market crash in Germany. Like just all these epic problems. Yeah that SPAN THE GLOBE. That are all in your head. None of that stuff would have been in your head. Also like probably a sense of powerlessness. We have an anxiety. Because when you're in that group of one hundred members of you could actually enact a change you could control your whole world. Yeah and then the mix of crazy fast pace mixed with totally sedentary lifestyle as far as not being physically active sitting and everywhere you go. There's a lot and what's interesting is there's no going back clearly. We're not going back to the Stone Age. So then you have to be pragmatic about okay. Well then his we're GONNA have to get these medicines better and better and better so that they can augment what whatever things being displaced in her head. Something must correct for that. Yeah and is that the future where we're going to have to be medicated. In a way that makes our our environment jive with our reptilian wiring well and just more awareness probably more research about the brain and the chemicals and what releases dopamine. I've been there. I mean they're already is so much research but I'm sure that's going to continue and maybe there are things we don't know that can unlock some of that stuff. Naturally just like exercise now. We know there might be other things we don't know yet. I'm just a little pessimistic. When the solution is like a behavioral adjustment when applied to the seven billion people like like everyone can take a pill in the morning. Look at it in terms of like surgeries are Gen- I mean. They vary all over the body but like back surgeries. They're like fifty percents successful on average. It's such a low percentage yet. People refuse to do physical therapy and they know physical therapy like ninety. Plus percent of the time fixes a problem whereas the surgery only half the time fixed in that particular case in. So I'm just always so pessimistic about if there's a behavioral solution to all of it. Well people adapt it. It's kind of interesting that your pessimistic about it because you are a part of a group that has made a lot of behavioral change. Yeah and unfortunately. The success rate of that program is at its best estimation like thirty percent. Yeah so you know way. More people try it and don't achieve sobriety than try and achieve sobriety but alas there's no better solution so even the lower percentage one is still the best solution. That's true I don't know well it depends. I guess it depends on the person but we also more knowledge. It's like this this podcast. Talking about these things makes people feel not alone in that helps and so when we have people on talk about. This is what I'm doing and this helps me then. I think it encourages other people to make those changes to I. Also think like kind of like you say that in order to make a change your hair us to be on fire. You really have to be in trouble. I do think that's true. I think a lot of people once they hit like real low low they do start thinking. Okay what I'll I hope they do. This are thinking. What can I do to call this a bit? I mean even been on the lower end of the happiness spectrum for a bit and a few days ago I was like I gotta figure this out and I remember years ago when I had a ton of anxiety and panic I was doing stuff to get out of it like I was meditating and I was really good about exercising and I was seeing my therapist regularly and then I climbed out of it and I didn't need to do those things as stringently as I was and now I feel like okay. GotTa get back in those routines because those helped. I think it's like once you feel the benefits. You can tap back in a little. You sure I totally agree. I will also point out though. You're also someone who's not a procrastinator by nature so like thing for you. It took like three days of misery before you're like okay. I got to do something. And you're someone that doesn't push it off now. You just like extend that to someone who is a huge procrastinator and didn't do their homework which is a big section of the world and I just get a little pessimistic. I mean I do think I should have been more proactive a month ago. So it wasn't like it was three days. It was a buildup of three days of really low to get there. But I mean. I don't know. I believe that people can help themselves. I believe a lot of people can help themselves. Also hopefully all of this thought in conversation and research continues to go further upstream. I mean you like to hope that a good percentage of this is is childhood related and I feel like we could improve the childhoods. Yeah that's a lot of pressure on parents. Oh it is. I don't think parents I think there needs to be more systems in place to help children. Yeah you know I think like Child Care became something that we subsidize offered and then it had to have a lot of like emotional components to the training like you know if we actually invested in put some effort into giving little kids tools and yeah you like to think it would be a lot easier down. Downriver I agree okay a couple things. He said. Japan Colonized Korea in the early nineteen hundreds nineteen. Ten Korea was annexed by the empire of Japan after years of war intimidation and political machinations. The country would be considered a part of Japan nineteen forty-five in order to establish control over. Its new protector at the Empire of Japan waged an all out war on Korean culture. Which is when he was saying. Mine's grandfather's like basically Japanese right. Yeah talk about like generational trauma like that gets passed down this idea that what you are is not good enough and they're trying to be something else that really yes. Yeah okay so I just wanted to be clear because you guys you guys were talking about craft a lot. I just don't know if people know that you're talking about craft at the restaurant. Crafts C. R. A. F. T. That's Tom Kalicki owes restaurant. He's a big sheff. He's he's on top chef. Oh and it's a huge fancy big restaurant but because it's food related. I didn't know people were going to think. It was kraft Mac and cheese K. R. A. F. T. Karameh granollers worked out. Yeah what a great company delicious cheese best macaroni and cheese and the big one hundred years running. However long it's been invented and I think the fact that my grandma had worked there it gave me an extra amount of pride in the Broadway and it tasted even better. Imagine that's no way that it tastes better. It tastes so good. I mean what a product we really believed in it like General Motors. Oh It's me one but anyway that's not the crap that was alluded to unfortunately yes and really. That was those. Were the only facts. 'cause it was more stories and emotions emotional exploration so lovely rare on experts episode. Yeah that's very true. Should we talk a little bit about? I'm too hot to handle you got into it last night. Yeah well I I yes. We watched one together menu and then we separated and then you have been watching and then I was watching and it's a good show. Let me say why. I think it's a good show. Okay we'll tell the premise. Tell the premise. I guess it's ten five hot chicks and five hot guys go to a island. Presumably IT TURNS OUT IT WAS MEXICO. I looked it up but at any rate they. They're on a beach in their in house. And and they kind of think the premises your everyday reality show. They're all going to date and hook up and stuff and then they find. They can't kiss or Fox or do they masturbate. I don't know how they're whatever monitoring so it gives you everything you want. You want Gawk right. You want to be judgmental in dislike. Some people like some people not all happen. G Get that you get a big tasty serving that but then slowly start seeing like these younger males. I hope that this is just a signal of what younger people are like now. I hope it's indicative of young people at large because these boys on this show were or are supportive of each other. There's such good communicators. They hug each other. They like challenge each other to be vulnerable and I was just like. Oh my God him soon encouraged by this show. I'm only five in. I know spoilers because everyone's watching it I think it's top rated. I believe that there's this crazy gender reversal thing happening in this show. Where like the guys are having all these deep talks with one another and they're also approaching the girls and like talking about their feelings and it's so the opposite of what you're used to seeing are used to seeing the girls being quote needy and talking about their feelings and competitive with each other but that's sort of happening with the guys like there's two guys that were one guy was mad at another guy because he was creeping on his girl but it wasn't like he was fighting he was hurt he was hurt and he was just being kind of quiet and Aloof. And then the other guy came up and was like what's going on to me. I was like Oh my God. That is so what we're used to seeing women do. Yeah so it is like a shock to watch it in this gender of our so I love it I love it and you know what's interesting is. I hadn't thought of this while I was watching it. But I'm thinking of it while you were explaining it. Which is this is not a this is one of the worst aspects of men is that they often establish their their status rank based on their physical prowess so kells is enormous just so much bigger than everybody. There's something to that that there's something about the harmony of the men in the show because the the strata is so clear physically and that is one tiny little advantage. We do have men. Sometimes it's so cancerous but I think in nist specific case. You're not seeing a ton of jockeying for WHO Alpha is. It's kind of just very plainly obvious to the is. I think the girls are more curious. Or there's more anxiety about who's who who's Alpha Beta Gamma I think they're scrambling more for the ranking whereas the guys it seems to have already been sorted Alec Ones goof-ball ones the big toughest motherfucker. They're all attractive so I think that's part of it is like they're all baseline very attractive. That's the point of the show So their sex addicts too. I mean I I'm calling it that but they all do nothing but have sex and are used to that the allfamous. You're you're right. It's like how big you are but it's also about how many women you can get in everyone. There is sort of on the same playing field with that. Yeah I'm just saying there's a harmony in this house and I think part of it is to do with the Alpha Alpha is so clear. There's one guy that's so much bigger and stronger than everyone. Just because he's bigger and stronger. I would never label him as the Alpha Alex. Seeing this whole thing with the leader of the group means does not seem like the leader. I agree that he doesn't seem like the leader of the group. Yeah I think I'm talking about something and if you haven't felt it you can't understand it. Maybe like that guy can kick everyone's ass in there's something about that being very clear that can add harmony really quickly to group of guys but when there's four guys that think they're that guy. I think there's just a lot of trouble coming. Maybe yeah I don't i. I can't relate to any of that I don't know really stupid. It's pretty stupid making the case that it's the right way to be. Yeah just observation of mine. Anyway it's it's a good show. It's worth watching. It's good really good. All right love you love you

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