20VC: Why Lead Lime's Series D Funding Round, Why Engineers Are Underpaid & Why 74% of US Venture Firms Still Do Not Have Female GPs
You are listening to the twenty minute BBC. With me, Harry stemming really would love to hear your thoughts and feedback on how I can make the show better for you. And you can do that on Instagram at age stabbings nine thousand nine hundred six with my respond to all masters person that but to the episode's day and a very special guest. She's going out of her way in the pulse to help me. And just really is a truly wonderful person in the industry. And so with that thrilled to welcome Sarah Smith partner at Bain, capital ventures, a leading US venture phone with a portfolio, including the lights of linked in limestone grid, jet dot com and more incredible names as for Sarah, what does start she's had to time at Bain leading investments in the likes of perks and the unicorn that is lime prior to joining bane Sarah spent five years at core both VP of advertising sales and operations, and then also from two thousand twelve to two thousand sixteen as VP of HR recruiting and operations skating. The company from forty to two hundred employees and before core Sarah spent four years at Facebook as director of online operations where team scaled or if you need to check this out one billion era while reducing churn and. Creasing customer satisfaction. But before we dive into the episode stay. I'm always focused on scaling my time. And I was always cramped travel. Bookie in management, well, not anymore. Why? 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And over the past eight years, they've totally reimagined. What a business messenger can be which is way more than simply live chat. Today into is used by the world's most Ford thinking companies eighty four percent of y combinator companies use a messaging or live chat tool use income. Astonishing fat one, and they have over thirty thousand customers, including logic companies to like New Relic, atlassian and shopper fight and also smaller companies like add table and coda beaver quite enough for me. So now, I'm delighted to hand over to Sarah Smith, partnered Bain, capital ventures. You have now arrived at your destination. Sarah, it is such a pleasure to have you on the shows. They had so many great things from Brandon the team lawyers. And so I really appreciate you taking the time outs. Join me stay Sarah here as one of your loyal subscribers. It is truly an honor. No college to join you. God is so so kind of you I so appreciate it. But I'd love to kickoff. Stay with a little bit on it. Tell me how did you make you a for a until what I always cool the wonderful world adventure and come to be vain today. It is wonderful world, isn't it? I just feel like we are so lucky what we get to do. I'm crude that someone could really come from any background through collection of experiences and make it into venture. So I was born outside of Milwaukee grew up there. My mom was an easy teacher. My dad works for the Veterans Administration, and my whole family really came from generations of people who were in the public precautions teaching and government work. And so all new business was that it was really risky and it didn't come with a pension. So I really knew nothing about I really schools, and I think the most expensive meal I hot. Graduates from high school, and but I knew that I always loved working I were Johnson high school. I was a waitress which was my first experience with variable. Combat. I really like the feeling empowered to make my own money. But when I went to school would I knew which was music since I grown up in musical household, and I majored in music education. And my first job out of school is teaching elementary k five music in the of with us chart. But as what would have it my boyfriend at the time was actually computer science, grad and San Francisco, and this was two thousand one. So I decided if there was any times sort of lead, Wisconsin that was at and I took the leap moved out. This was right after the dot com bust, obviously, so lots of people were leaving the bay area. And I was scrambling to find really any work that I could and I landed on silver levering stars which is a private education company over in the East Bay. And that was really my first exposure really running a business. I got promoted quickly and was running a sensor a little million dollar business. I looked up and ruins I never had any kind of business education number taken comics, accounting marketing, and so I'm rolled at UC Berkley extension. Nights and weekends to take some classes and founded absolutely loved it. I thought it was super interesting. And that's also where I talked to some students who are tweeting about this whole MBA thing actually, remember asking student like what does even stand for and quickly realized that that was really exciting opportunity to grow my career, and as a life changing experience after business school and was really unfortunate time, and I graduated in of sudden if you can recall, this is when guy phone had come out right after we graduated Facebook in my face. We're battling it out and social media area and grilling Zimmer web is just taking off. And so everyone, including my office all getting into this ecosystem, I worked at a bootstrap startup and affiliate lead gen really interesting business to learn that within a year my classmate that window regarding the end Facebook, so about six months after Charlotte joint. And so I really spent the next four years helping scaling grow many different sales and operations teams globally and in not experience. I started to St. how the board members to really had a great stake in the future success. Acids Facebook, and I sort of pushed me a little bit was that there were any women at the team ball. And I thought and some kind of better understand that can sell I actually went onto Cora where I knew the founders worked there for five and a half years running creating HR operations, and ultimately monetization. And in the meantime, kind of started angel investing on the side and a few of my consummates had started a microphone called graph insurers, and they invited me to join in on the third fun in twenty fifteen and not really got my feet wet and source saying and talking and actually writing checks into companies and did about twenty deals there. So in twenty seventeen kind of in the time of the metoo movement and a lot of the information coming out about some of the cultures of venture decided that was really the time to make a change. I turned forty I was getting married Mike, and we'd had some health problems at home and sorry just assigned. It was really times to Italy my career and pursue venture full time. And I talked to launch different curtains at a lot of different firms are down the ecosystem to be very very welcoming. And ultimately landed. At being capital ventures, which has been tastic it. I mean, what an incredible background that. And totally love that. I do have to pick up on a couple of different strains say one of which was the elementary school. Meaning teach you can I think it's the first elementary school music teacher starting point that I've had on the show what lessons have you applied from Donna experience to management and v c. Yeah. So I taught literally not lowest income school in Addison ninety percent of our students run free and reduced lunches. We had all of the homeless kids in entire city, come to our schools of very transient population. And I think actually working in that environment. Also, just gave me a lot of empathy for just a broader consumer base, not only in the middle America. But it's a lower income brackets, which is really stuck with me throughout management venture. And that you just really never know privilege or lack of confidence people have as they grow up. But as a teacher, you really working when all kinds of heads and the whole goal is really helping them reach their full potential, and so you're balancing being racial, but also keeping. Discipline. And I think there's a lot of overlaps between not being a manager. And also being a venture capitalist. The other thing you learn in school preparing to be a teacher is this concept of Scott holding where you really want to demonstrate a skill help shadow student as they're kind of getting competency without scaling all to help them gain independence and the manager. I was thinking about the projects and tasks they have someone that would help them gain independence mastery of steel that would ultimately land them in their next dream job. So there's a lot of things I think you take from teaching in apply to help building teams, and helping people and companies Riester whole social I have to say when I wrote that question. I was wondering what you were going to go without one. But I mean that's incredibly aligned in terms of Osceola hold of the roles of venture and founder engagement. So that's fascinating. Thank you. Don't have to pay. If you don't have to pay all this during the mentioned, which was Facebook and core parenting the hype skating that sauce hand, what was some of the biggest takeaways from that. Yeah. Takeaways. I think a lot of people who are fortunate to be in those types of companies have which is, you know, greater products. Give you lots of rooms ruining about having a clear mission and vision are really critical, but once in a lifetime experience, but I think some of the lesser known learnings are things people have talked about quite as much is really important to being super super flexible when a company is drawing taxes Facebook while the choir was it's really important. They not to get tied too much to any team or processed things are changing constantly when your company's growing one to two percent every single week, you shouldn't really much in any particular process or polished, and you should also be open to really jumping into a new role and needed. So they're oftentimes just filling the gap where there's clearly a need sore leadership for help management. And that really ultimately what really helped me, I think grow my career. I also say that in opening remote offices. So at Facebook are really helps in the tumbler in Austin and about offices and sending a group of people from headquarters, or at least twelve months. To also include a office leader, where people report remotely, I really the best way to encourage cultural alignment across the mothership headquarters and the local team and make sure that team also feels a sense of ownership atonomy. We did that really successfully I think Facebook and last night, I would say that in both cases of Facebook emporer. I think quality and trust are really critical very hard to build. It's really easy to lose. I think frankly, if basic struggling with that now in some ways, and it's super important that companies keep their focus on user choice. I totally agree with you in terms of that kind of centrist around us atrocity. I do want to dig into some of the Ottomans of your investing today with Bain one of them as the whole topic of the lost twelve months, which is kind of Scrooges. Unlike Herm, busy, always see more series D lime when things I wanna deacon. All the deal say, this is the first time I've had the job see this, all Missouri. So I'm pretty excited as you can imagine has still with the town in defense of the industry in the funds of may be put money into the market size is indisputable. How do you pros? Mulkey. Sizing with this one. Peter funds said he was lost. And he has investors big market. So how did you think about this one maybe responding to that it is a huge market? Certainly. I mean person ad smile. Transportation is estimated something like forty billion dollars globally a bit to be on that wasn't necessarily the thing. I was looking for to Peter's point what I saw which really that is huge momentum shifting consumer behavior playing eighteen if we'll get the adoption to be scooters, it's nearly vertical. Kirk. It's unbelievable. How fast in Zimmer's have adopted this new technology and bummer chance for teachers and. Step back really make sense because it was really a confidence that summaries bigger ways in consumer attack. If you think about it, we've learned that taking out your phone and pressing a few buttons can equate to transportation, thanks to the rise of the rideshare industry. And then also we have rise of Airbnb. We were Uber even EBay. I would say taught us that. We're okay sharing stuff or using new stuff. If it gives us utility. And then you also have battery life that you get technology. That's good enough to power of consumer aid bugles. So you combine all of that? With the fact that our cities are also not equipped to deal with increasing density of population. And traffic congestion, so consumers are really open to micro -bility and a faster way to get around more than ever. So it's not just about a huge town. But for me, this is really a story of massive momentum and ashamed and consumer behavior really is the case of up to the ROY light. We we see the majority of deck, but that opposite off into the up. Offense the competition and likely the most discussed Salomon that we see maybe in the public sphere to main with the license. Void tear flash. Dolts? I think the last four or five that would just in Europe and the list goes on how did you get comfortable answering such Uffizi competitive space? Yeah, I think it is a competitive space. And certainly we thought about how much was this competition going to put strain on companies in terms of their capital needs. So I think capital is somewhat of a mobile. It's not the main mode that we bet on in terms of this competitive landscape. We really bet on our Burris company who has the most experience and the most markets are also going to have the most data to use in. Optimizing and driving the highest utilization those civilization and any market are going to command the most revenue especially where there's dynamic capping as the sort of forcing regulatory mechanism. And we believe that's going to be a long-term stated most cities are going to implement dynamic happening. It's two different than what we. Currently have in San Francisco, just text camping. So for those in San Francisco's little Mark to imagine. But in the end most cities are going to bring you late the market with Obama capping system in this. Why Marty how had clearly wanted scaling. But also have made incredible strength is in some laying a world class leadership team that we felt was after they should handle more scaling to come. And so we really felt that stood out. And we're the clear winner amongst all editors can I ask him. This is maybe very basic thinking for me that I should probably know what is dynamic counting big question. So she usually have three choices facing. And by the way, they all really want this to exist. They know that their cities are really getting crushed flip traffic congestion. And so they want to enable micro mobility. So they're looking at three choices one is no cap. So they say, hey, as many vendors as you want brings many suitors as you want street for all we don't believe most cities are going to go after that. Because it does lead to cluttering on the streets in a lot of the constituents. How? Happy about that. And there's a lot of safety issues with making sure right number of suitors on the road. Then you also have the other side of the patient just Harding outing. She sits there since doing others lamented where maybe somewhat randomly assign a certain number of carbons of certain number vehicles seed Fender, so they might say, hey, five hundred hundred Shubert hundred to skip. And that unfortunately, doesn't really have anything to do with consumer demand. Because usually actually lower supply them would actually build consumers in the now, all means, it doesn't become a reliable Garmisch expectation. So the dynamic capping system, but it does places burden on the vendor to drive a certain utilization, her vehicle per day. So the city could say you need to true that you are pretty say at least three chairs per vehicle per day as long as you're getting that you didn't doubting students to the row thousand skaters you drink that's chips per day. You can increase your supply until you get that magic number that the city says I never really develop some nice mechanism for make insure those adequate amounts to make. It's a really useful an active transportation for consumers. Absolutely. I mean speaking, I'm thank you so much, by the way for the explanation that I turned out now seem kind of the skuas themselves of disgust element is the wet and the great great skewed. How did you think about this and get comfortable with really huge infrastructure? Quads run such a hardware intense business. Yeah. So one of the things that you're saying it's given fastened your last year in a lot of strain on supply and supply chain. And so lot of companies launched with consumer graves, which are not meant to be a huge scale. Sleep shared amongst many consumers in a market. So we certainly saw obviously shorter schooner life last year. But we talked to a lot of experts in the field in the hardware space of many of the teams that we also were evaluating, and we got really comfortable that it was possible to build a ragged innocuous or that was to dible or scaled fleet in an urban environment added cost and the price point that would. Drive to ultimately positive union economics. And if you think about it, you have to believe that any company at scale would have the ability to build a similarly tough and rugged Studer. And so the Kim down to serve table stakes indicates that we felt that Lyman and actually many of their competitors would be able to do that task in terms of the students themselves. How they look how they feel how they write that was any consumer loyalty tool Sutton Browns over others, or is it maybe more of a convenience choice. Great. I will have you tried it yourself on you know, I have in power slow sweet for the first time on I did got a lie. I have to admit awesome. What do you think? I loved it. I was incredible fun than it reminded me of going back to my school days. Really? But it was wonderful. Yup. Totally loved them. So turns out tens of millions of people have had a similar experience already and just the last year. So we do think that some point there will be some consumer loyalty just out of convenience. But the bigger driver is really going to be. Locations. So when you set out, and you're trying to get by eight to be you're gonna really care about which one is the closest to you. So we think of the cost that consumers will use many different products. Certainly you could imagine that feature these companies create incentives to drive more loyalties subscription as discounts different things like that. But our view is that really gun is comes back to the fleet. That is best optimize in terms of its disbursement of the vehicles throughout the city. We believe that that is the Blair that's going to win the most revenue in the most chest. So likely is gonna be the one that's really closest to you. And the scale buyers are probably gonna be best position to make sure that's case. No, I totally got Tom's convenience model the final element. I do wanna talk with regards to the skews is. So he's kind of putting on maybe slightly more visi how the Ottomans have John is one that anyone? Call him to ignore such huge funding previously in poverty in the future. How do you comfortable with the level of violation that will almost inevitably entail? Yeah. I guess I think about this. Oiler league to getting into Facebook series g as an investor which also happens to be about eight months after I joined the company, so certainly the earlier investors Facebook stood to do much much better. But it was still a really really exciting opportunity to invest in the company, and there was huge growth momentum. Which is similar honestly lime is the first company item. Since my time at Facebook showing that kind of tornado growth and insane momentum. I believe they have a shot at being the largest transportation company in the world. And if that happens to four billion dollar post is going to look tiny in the rear view mirror. So that was really believing that lime has the ability to get a unit economics and more than fifteen to twenty extra here. I actually think that can happen sooner than people might guests and for the skeptics out there. I would actually occur even take another look if you would have been happy investing at ten billion dollar valuation. Don't I love in terms of taking him the lurking beyond show. We'll see someone with from the comment. We mentioned kind of conceivable that we've mentioned some of the hold companies in town with lime. And and in these cases, the talented self is the biggest wall even product rocket ships house. We sat Facebook can core. And you said to me before that contrary thought you hold is engineers on the page. How can I thought with this? Why do you think engineers on the pain? How does on into maybe they're onto cheats equity? Yeah. So I do believe I don't know about you. But I had yet found his says that they have too many engineers. They don't know what to do with them. They had no problem recruiting they have more than us elite higher. I literally had never heard from anyone. So now knows a super tight market, and in that type of world you have to think there's gotta be some more regulatory mechanism balances out. And really just I think means that Christ has not risen enough to drive enough of this lie. So certainly you could just make a general economic argument that engineers if they're struggling to hire. You seem to keep raising a price amazing price until you can successfully higher now on terms of the overall Compaq edge. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable. I think there's probably reverts to grow. But I think we're the really interesting thing happens is what we noticed kora, which is that if you think about how most engineers are really a lot of individuals boys their profile how they think about I quickly. Have you talked to many of them, even those savvy people often really think of equity as a lottery ticket, and if you think of it as a lottery ticket that means you're essentially assigning expected value zero and that to me always start was really odd because investors, obviously don't assign a valuable almost zero to their equity in companies. So we kind of thought step back Corinth thought, he why are we giving away equity as a significant portion of the compensation package expected value to the engineer whoever the is zero. Why wouldn't we instead go raise some additional capital for people who adequately value at value? Leads at a higher rate. And instead convert that money that we get from investors in higher salaries to make this more competitive, and I'm surprised to see more companies are doing this. Because really it just seems like almost it's just like inefficiency in the marketplace. And also if you think about for engineers or any individual employees, look, it makes sense that they can't necessarily value at the same as investors because their time horizon from financial perspective may not be the age ten years. Many companies are taking to go public. They may need more inquisitive sooner. And so I think it's just interesting that a lot of companies still are really behind scenes shifts humidity in their economic model. I'm is a fascinating perspective. I'm for sure. So let's at least age found butts, and I come to you as one of your Portia companies say, Sarah, I'm struggling to construct my comb plan. What would you advise me looking to build and retain that Rennie strong team in terms of coal plant construction? So I think that we are living in a world where you for your schedule is. Is really outdated and sort of a legacy from somewhat like twenty years ago. When companies typically went public more like Florida five here's now, clearly we're staying private much longer and most individual employees can't afford to wait that long to get put any and then you combine the fact that the average tenure of an employee in a competitive market like San Francisco is about a year and a half. So it's interesting. Why are we giving these four your grants to people when they might likely studied of and a half? So I recommend that people really considering thinking through what did he wished it up, and you instead gave a bit more cash in front, and you gave to your grants. All right. And then every year you gave an annual refresher. I think the positives of that is that you certainly you type less of your option all early on. And you also have an opportunity every year to reevaluate unto brandishing grass to your employee's would also feels good overtime. And I just think that's like a much more efficient way to manage expectations into really respond to the current market conditions brew Montana coup feasibility. He case is super challenging in terms of adding these additional years as ending changed him lost fee is to make that easier and more possible accessible said I'm asking what is it still exist at that time the answers, you know, well, just the way it's done. It's really complicated to keep track of a lot of the stuff at that time living in spreadsheets tracking was really a mess. And now we have great companies like Sparta that have really automated a lot of this backoffice administration. And so, but it was a lot more flexibility that companies have in terms of how they think about granting I would eat it doesn't mean that you certainly need to have some process and thought behind your refresher program and to do that early. But I think that is actually really smart on behalf of the company to be honest, you when I left Facebook, it was after forty seven months. I mean, I could look ahead is the my best thing schedule was about to radically change and you want to avoid this these rapid stuck up Shen changes or decreases in someone's equity vesting because at does actually drive attrition. So if you have maybe a two year or year up from brands in the new author annual refresher is you're much better position to keep that smooth for the long haul for the employees. This is so fired me to throw this in. But I do have to do you think the attrition rates in the volley today is a feature or bug? It's kind of twofold and people on either side of the coin, well, regardless sort of the reality. I think something like if you've found this behavior happening in your product, you kind of have to do your best to optimize around it. And I do think that right now the reality is that -tations of workers coming out of school are really high. And I also don't think it's completely irrational. Foreign individuals leads to build her folio of diverse equity. I happen to stay or her five and a half years in Facebook for four years, but it's not rational that some individuals decide to take a one two maybe three years of equity out a few companies to build their own portfolio over. I do think it's massive challenge organizations because we still. I used to serve planning around careers in extending people will stay pats on that tribal knowledge. And so I do you want to think about stuff the executive ranks of leadership ranks, how do you increase the tenure of those people because they have huge impact on your organization. But I think you have to also be peg Matic and realized how you onboard and got people productive and learning engaged very quickly when the first coming out of slope. But also assume that they may only be there for a year and a half to two years and made that as unexciting and engaging of a journey as possible. No, I agree. More times kind of efficiency within that allow time in ensuring the highest possible level, I do want to discuss one more before the quickfire on. So I wanted to discuss the underrepresentation of southern groups in venture. You were the fuss female GP at Bain still Senate GP's all women so stalling with an average of cools Asian, here's Sarah, you said to me before there are two Jomon reasons for this misrepresentation. So tell me what all those two reasons in your mind. So I think that it's easy for people to blame the old boy. Network. But in my view, there's more systematic and structural reasons why this happen. So if you wanna get a quick tutorial, I do commend reading Harda and the hashtag angels post on the gap table. But a couple of barriers really stood out to me. Sure is is the GP requirement. So LP's do looks to new managers to commit a certain percent of their capital the funds. So if someone's trying to raise a fifty million dollar fund, for example, that could mean there's this expectation of a one million dollar G P commitment was a lesson come from money or you're one of the women in senior ranks of Rocketship accent, financial outlay, really deters eliminates the ability of women, and maybe underrepresented minorities. So it's understandable that as wanna see their fund managers have skin in the game. But I think this is somewhat outdated who will really limit the diversity of new con- managers. And the second thing is what I think of as sort of this, quote unquote blackbox of angel investing. So when you don't come from wealth like in my case UC super angels, like Chris soccer, Mark Cuban or keeps ROY Peter Thiel. These are the law. Voices sometimes in the Twitter universe making investments against feel line. You have to Dhaka millionaire more to get started. So I had no idea what it would take to get started in angel investing in talk to many women who could afford to angel investing. And also similarly had no idea even falsified when a breakdown requirements of what it tasted UniCredit investor. Many of them are really surprised that really got the income of Raymond two hundred thousand dollars in the last two years in the next year, and you could get started. And so they really Howard when I tell them they can get started just writing twenty five K Jack since early stage companies maybe budget one hundred caves or quoting put tuition learning the world of investing going through the motion. And I feel like a lot of it's helping a lot of women and underrepresented groups to break it down. What it takes to actually get started. They don't really have to be a sincerely DACA millionaire to get started. I couldn't agree with you on birth. I think the GP commit one is absolutely ridiculous. I think it should be proportional. Or frankly, I've seen I've seen. Three percent two billion. And it's like us like my pocket money to present someone else huge on yet completely relatives. So totally with you that to tell me if this is why it happens. Let's say a way in an O'Malley all ship, and we really want out off us female GP. Or should we do? Now. What is the next step? I think a lot of venture funds are in this position. Now, what's slop? Yes. In fact, seventy percent of firms in the United States, do not yet have a female. So I think this is really pertinent question. I bought you ask so few Stephan recommend number one. It's really important to make sure, you know, full commitment at the top of this is truly important of irony for the firm because you believe the data that shows you will drive higher returns as you have more diverse group. And certainly if you have maybe not even just one armor, but a couple of partners picture every partners on board of that. And if not there's really no quite because then you bring in someone they're not going to be successful evolve. The art agreement that this school is successful her second. Julian Gordon, you'll be clear on the criteria. And what you expected the partner as you're like many firms, you've probably hire your friends or your former colleague saving calls remains or some of your founders. You may not have ever actually really stop to think about what is critical to success as partner in your firm. You may not have any objective criteria. So take the time down check around with a group. Make sure like allocated on what does it actually mean to be harder here? What's important for success? It's funny. But oftentimes when people talk about diversity is whole notion of lowering the bar not lowering the bar comes out. But when you actually sit down and look at it, most groups that are have not been very diverse. I haven't set a bar verse place to make sure you actually have really clear expectations. It's not sexy. But a super important third. I would say is really to just source in earnest. So my partner audit deigned found me they ask him his network referrals and Jocelyn Goldstein instead of venture state. The my name beefy wasn't even on my radar yet till you to really ask directly earnestly for referrals. Productions in all raise actually has a portal adding jobs publicly and financially that we share with our members. So I would say really get active in do sourcing. And then four say you'd have to ask hard questions in the interview process and also daily let her join in investment committee or to department meeting encourage her to participate in Sharon views, this is related to white interview process. So if you saw those conversations while those sides are feeling really good kid, then moved to action actually make an offer. I see a lot of firms dawdling at this stage really important to take action vis- decisive the other alternative all that would be to start a farm team. So you could actually put some star women baby exacts in your portfolio in business, potentially set aside two hundred fifty K two million for them to invest on your behalf to get them to rest to get them. Experience. Get some exposure to investing donuts standards deals are going to be amazing right away. It certainly took you time to get good at this job, but has come up and help them think through their investments holding their craft in reach. Potential. Don't love it. You might get their royalty Mike them as a partner, and you certainly may get more results Bamsey lumpy strategies. And I think as she does no reason why you couldn't do both at the same time. We'll most in terms of kind of in generating the next generation Ondon cool praising the current incredible crawl into partnership. I guess -absolutely say Casey kind of logical steps once we have that incredible within all wrong. So people with an Rx we wanna make them as successful as possible. What can be done to make you first female GP successful. Is there any cases where you often maybe see some going roll, we'll make some mistakes that have been nations and to be honest. These are really probably things that would benefit any new art, regardless of gender any other backgrounds, but I certainly mentorship apprenticeship business, and I had an article mentorship for my arms and Bain. They often we'll jump on the phone sit down with me, Gobert and Efim puzzle. That and thinking of and with day are really really good at. I don't even think they realized that I really armor teacher is there, really. Great at creating psychological safety. So they will point out merits of. Why am I be interested in a deal? They'll ask questions of curiosity. Not in a do not think of this kind of tone. So they made me feel really an hour to move forward. And also give me really good article suggestions after mentorship. I'd spec amend that you maintain your and criteria. I think this is really hard some chance when you bring in a new remember certain underrepresented group, there could be impatient to first few deals through or sort of be a little bit softer on your criteria. Just to get their feet wet. I would Kerr incurs you to hold the same standard and make sure if you know in your heart that is not a good deal this partner to do. Don't let them walk into it. I think it's really important that you make sure that you decided success in helping them make sure her deals are going to be a runaway success. I'd also recommend you not give her the diversity tax. So it's really common. I think good intentions. People say great never personal burger. Will you now mentor all the women in our? If you think about that that's really putting a burden of a lot of time on that one individual and happens organically, all the time in ensuring also intact, and it's really important actually limit those kinds of taxes. And instead make sure that Ursus preserve being much time as awful to be successful in their job at a lot. I recommend that you encourage professional development and be ready to invest generously in letting her go to conferences socializing network a lot with her peers, it's a pretty rare opportunity that as a woman, you're in a room of all women investors. So if there are things that she can go to conferences encourage her to do that. I don't force. It kinda goes without saying, but make sure you're paying fairly like really make sure you're sitting down looking at everything being offered yourself in making sure there's no pig. I certainly agree with you on all of them, especially the atom of the investment criteria keeping the same. I think he's super putting super easy as you set the fuss few obstinately kind of leading the way. Then holding not in the foot for a long time in having not as a potential button in the fuss. She is in super important. So with you that for sure in terms of the next step. I would love to do a quickfire round with these statements as you give me your immediate thoughts about. All you ready still haven't I am. Okay. So I'm flying to the west coast. I need a book for the trick. What? Bush should I be reading? And why sir? Clara we discovered that a lot of women struggle to really right and put their thoughts out there. So I'm going to recommend a couple of writers one you've probably heard of his Topi from China. I think it's a really interesting insight into the valley. Secondly, I actually read it myself. But it has just come out one of my former colleagues from Facebook, Julie Zo just almost a book called the making of a manager. And I'm really excited to hear about her insides, she's been well, regarded as an amazing leader manager face cranks. Sounds like she shows a lot of our ability in this book, absolutely develops, not not. I'm definitely gonna buy that one. But what's it called? Sorry. The making of a manager guess gonna Wolfson new per Foale for VP of people that was a clip tongue. You'd have to be with. Yeah. I have a lot of downers and thing because I ran the people or and came from not traditional HR backgrounds. I hear this more and more the founders are really looking for someone who has balance of real world experience as general manager and confound sort of the rest from the business side. Also the human side though, I'm seeing. Vile is successful people manager of growing organizations, or there was a rude, legal culture. So they're often coming out with sales operations, something pretty process-oriented. But also become out of products in engineering world, people forget, Chris Cox, actually ran our recruiting for while Facebook. So I think you can find people come from within the ranks of a company, I'm bringing them in Snapple. Not this is the first time we've ever had this one. But it's especially USA was the favourite bowl game. And y yeah, I would crave the board game game. My husband and I spend a ton of time playing games. So for those of your other or gain gauge listeners out there having three recommendation so people who like decling games a few lights minion I'd recommend you try star realms who claim out a lot for cooperative games and MC legacies season. One is really fantastic lesson for German strategy board game. So if you've heard of settlers of Italian probably the best known one for a game like down Sturridge, we've been consumed with a game all tear forming Mars and we play castle burgundy far. A lighter weight game. But I have probably list of twenty more. I could recommend people are interested. I made my would what a hoagie. Naming them. And I was like I have no idea what she's talking about. I will be doing an Amazon show off to this helmet remote. What is inevitable? How do you address? The downsides. Are we have really lack of empathy and trust that can develop over time as well. As long as so I really need to create opportunities for people to keep back to express appreciation and feel recognize so tooling Slager really tape instincts now, but I think like gona, sleet, if you haven't heard of that they enable peer to peer bonuses actually on top of slack, which really creates come rodri- across a Deckers team in remote locations in a really obligate and lightweight lay. The you also repaired to invest in travel and really bring the whole company you together at least once a year and a lot of folks are actually working from home, maybe conservative a benefit of a stipend or something to actually create a really lovely office environment at home, something that makes them feel like you really care about the physical environment that they're in the no I love that in terms of the stipend to make the physical environment. Beautiful. Tell me what advice. Most me you disagree with I hear people tell women to join a firm as the first female partner for fear that they will be quote, unquote, the token partner, I think that's crazy. I don't know how we're going to change things at we shun the seventy four percent of US firms who don't have a female partner, so rally shaming news terms. I think we should really be helping those that are raising their hands asking for help and see recruiting unwelcoming the conversations identity Jew higher. The first Email partner, we really should throw our support in an effort behind those women out is it intimidating wash difficult. Alamo allude to come into like anyone coming into a similar people in that respect would be maybe wanting is it don't seem really thinking. My actually a lot of my peers who are the first woman in their partnerships. A lot of us do come from backgrounds. Detectives. So it's often not the first time we've been the only woman in the room. So I think it's wave some of us have been conditioned for it. But really, I think it matters a lot with the culture, the farmers like, you know, one of the things I was looking for when I was searching sitting in with partners or partner meetings, his conversation, the tone gonna shift because. I'm in the room. And I was really looking for farm where I didn't feel like actually the way they converse with each other the way they make decisions the way they literally behave with each other was going to have to change that much just because now woman was grim. I don't the case that every far like I think there are some firms that would really struggle with that. But for me, luckily, I felt being already extremely respectful open culture. And so I felt right at home. I got there are student things have come up here and there, but I think you by Byers done a really good job of encouraging me to bring up things to speak out when I see things that maybe by be slightly awkward, or you know, show any kind of bias. And I certainly done that on occasion, it's on really really well Folsom. That's great hand. But I do wanna finish today on you'll most recent public the amounts investments, Sarah and tell me what she gets so excited and latest investment publicly was seen investment in a company called perk. Steve based in New York is Kirk CPR K s lie. It's a market research at for the next generation who take your. Clearly gems Genesee on millennials. So the product engagement rate is really insane. Which is what really caught my attention. But I said yes to this because I really love the founder Nadia mastery dot just because she's stiffer dynamic shoes part of the demographics deeply understands this demographic, but she is super Caughlin how should crap her team with industry veterans. So she has hired some folks from Nielsen you have thirty years of experience on her on as part of her executive team. So she brings a consumer product ones that resonates with our audience, but her team really knows how to sell them deliver to the brand. So I'm really excited about artsy. Sarah how they said at the beginning. I've so enjoyed all Twitter's rations for long time. So I'm so pleased that we go see this, and I call it a fight you for joining me. Stay thank you so much. It was such a pleasure. My word. I mean, what a guest, and I do wanna take John say, Houston he'd Sarah she's going above and beyond to help me outside of the show. So I really do. So appreciate that. And if you'd like more from Sarah, you can find her on Twitter at SA Smith fold coins, it'd be great see behind the scenes the twenty minute minutes. You can do that on Instagram at H dubbing nineteen Ninety-six with two Bs really would love to see that. But before we leave each day, I'm always focused on scaling my time. And I was always cramp travel bookie and management well, not anymore while because I now use travel pug, the business travel management platform that even I love it's just so super easy to travel and actually quite fun favourite nobody enforce with travel agents oil finance team. But it gives you the best of both worlds companies just got happy travelers, so easy a management and as much as twenty percent in savings with one hundred percent incompliance go to take that compliance books these days and even better no one is getting to chase people for sees full worry about splurging on overly expensive penthouse suites. Finally, I have to say the support is number one race it. So you. Twenty four seven travel, I suppose ready steel with forgotten Paul's PAL's. Yep. That one before whole unexpected flight, cancellations oversized, baggage requests vegan meal options. Whatever you can think of they have you covered on the twenty minute BBC listeners can score free lounge pasta over twelve hundred apples for a whole year, quite astonishing. I'm quite jealous. Quite like that. What do you need to do is go to travel dot com slash twenty. That's travel dot com slash to'serve. EC give them the name of the person who runs travel at you'll company. And if they book a demo, the lounge pulse is you'll and I've traveled book allows me to scale my time load of what we do on the twenty minute VC is discussed scaling businesses to to expose picking the brains of founders and investors who tell us about the trends toward channel four off a tips on fundraising and teaches how to excel at any company stage, but that's not playbook for building a great business. But we can certainly learn from people who've done it before beyond listening to this poll costs and talking to mental advises in your own network. It's important to have resources you can turn to when you attack a new challenge on strike is built losers. Sources for you. Whether you'd like to learn how to run a pricing Spiderman will build a knockout landing page stripe gives you the information you need to start running scale technology company, and then guides often written by we'll feed you people. I e kill experts in that space who you've probably huddled this very poke cost, and you can read my favorite guide on scaling engineering organizations and many more on stripe dot com slash twenty. That's T W E N T Y, V C and lost. But by no, means least to scale you need customers and into comb offers a new embattled to acquire engage and retain customers. They've built a suite of messaging. I products from chat bulls to toki reimagined business messenger that modern internet businesses use to accelerate growth across the customer life cycle from acquisition to engagement and support and the pulse. Eight years. They've totally reimagined. What business messenger can be which is way more than simply live chat today into commits used by the world's most Ford thinking companies eighty four percent of white combination companies use a messaging or live chat to he's into astonishing not one and they have over thirty. Thousand customers, including logic companies to like New Relic, atlassian shopper fight and also smaller companies like at table and code as always they kennel find you enough you potent I'm super excited bringing a fantastic episode with Frederick it also on Friday.