Palantir, Getting Woke Out Of Tech & the Future of Healthcare | Joe Lonsdale Interview
A you know I don't know exactly how the people got charge here in. So many places partially because they're so loud I. Think there's five or ten percent of the people here who really believe in that stuff and they've got very good. I think it came from the universities you look at our big tech companies the Culture Google is modeled office, Stanford since all the PhD's same thing with the other ones. So these tech companies are basically taking a culture from university. You it's been broken for a few decades and die and these people are really good a punishing people who stand up to them and and trying to get them. So it's not worth. It was time to push back. If you're trying to your job, you're just you know you're you're just you do. You're just do what you can and doc- these go people just being charged. It's really bad. I'm Dave Rubin in. This is the Rubin Report Locals Week Joining Me Today as an entrepreneur and investor and policymaker at the CICERO Institute Joe Lonsdale welcome to the Rubin report. Thanks Dave on jibe wanted to you on for for quite some time because you're involved in in about a billion things that sort of ansel early are all about the things that I talk about on this show from tech to politics free speech education, all of it. But first, let's start with those those two words that I mentioned Upfront Entrepreneur investor. I. Feel like when you say that to people people think, Oh, you were just kind of like born that way. How does somebody become an entrepreneur and investor I suspect a lot of my audience would like to have those two tags. Well you know there's a lot of types of this but for me, it's about you see things they work certain way and you're frustrated and you fix them. So I think I think I think having a vision of how the world should work this not how it's working right now that will lead one to being an entrepreneur 'cause that's basically the only way to do things we've all economy. So how'd you get started for the guy out there watching this right now going okay I got a regular job but I've got an idea or I'm passionate about something like how did it work for you? Well. You know technology's a really big part of what you need to be. You don't have to be a technologist, but it's a big advantage to learn technology learn computer science and you know I I was I grew up in the bay area. I was very lucky. I was born in Silicon Valley had a bunch of friends were great technologists. They taught me from young age and went to Stanford Computer Science and met a of great technologists when I was there. I saw the smartest people were going to work at pay pal and you know the time it was two thousand. But what's his pay pal thing and it was a company that had been started by there's one company started by Peter. Thiel one company started by Elon Musk and the emerging they made pave house of course. Peter. By his smartest friends along brought his smartest friends and I said. Well I. WanNa work there, and they actually rejected me the first time but I try again and let me in and I learned a lot from them. So I think what you want is follow best technologists, learn technology and go study under people know what they're doing. That's probably a good way to get started. So as a guy that was involved in those sort of magic years of silicon. Valley and of big, tech and all that when you look back on it does it feel like a dream sort of seeing sort of the way big tech has moved and how the landscape has changed and how people generally talk about big tech verse probably what you were seeing when it was being born, does it all just feel very weird because it's not that long ago as you said. Yeah, I remember being at a dinner with Peter use the first investor in facebook mark was there another facebook founders really well, of course from this background I remember being jealous because the other really important people the table retreating mark is more important than me and I said Pouncer, is going to be a really big company is vice what he can face necessarily going to be bigger. So obviously, I was wrong. You're going to be nearly as big as facebook went public last week for twenty billion dollars. So we didn't do horribly but but it's it's. Not, worth five marks worth you know trillion dollars but but no, it is interesting having known a lot. These characters very ardent, very hardworking people I don't think any of US knew how big these companies are going to get the I like how you just pooh-poohed Twenty, two, billion twenty. Twenty two, billion. Someone. WHO's like crushed in way better than you? At least in my experience. It's kind of funny. I was actually to get there a little bit later but let let's just to do the numbers like when you say something like that. Okay. So so Peletier went IPO twenty, two, billion dollars. The numbers start to seem crazy. Did they seem crazy even to you guys that are in in it because I think to the average person it's like you can't fathom one billion dollars I. Don't think most people can fathom you know what? Ten million dollars? You know it's I think in some ways I'm lucky that it took. So long because as things take time over the years, you kind of adjust to it. I think if it weren't all of a sudden fall on your lap after a couple of years, it would probably be extremely unhealthy accu. There's things I worked on with Peter the fine where we had a hedge fund the kind of blew up linear would have gotten this giant bonus you know as a twenty five year old. I didn't and looking back. It's probably good I didn't because if you just get a bunch of money once it's to, it's hard to adjust to it. If you build these things over time it like you kinda learn how to manage it. You learn the money is not like a bunch of gold coins. If he asked me as a kid, I, would have thought it was like scrooge mcduck and there was like a tower and there's gold coins in it and we're GONNA. Money. The dive into your tower with the big dollars you're actually not may maybe maybe at some point we should figure that out, but it's actually my experience. Now, any of my friends had breakfast and Peter thiel yesterday, he made more on pounds here. Of course than than pay pal is worth you know and and you want to assault Ebay of course when he first did it but but you know these people, the money represents these missions in these causes and it the money's ownership something you've built. So it becomes much more about it's the money's ise shirts worth some large amount on paper, but it's much more about the ability to get. Things that in the world ability influence things. So some point you're going to spend yourself, it's when you're going to use to achieve stopping to build stuff. Do you think that's the fundamental disconnect when when we talk about money and when there's a certain level of resentment when these companies goad IPO or when when they see people getting these huge payouts or saying that they don't really understand like the work that it took in the way these things change industries and everything else like there's a disconnect between what's actually going on with a lot of these companies and what sort of the media portrays it all as yeah well of course, it's a massive. Amount of work and of course, lockable wouldn't take bets on these things would invest in them. When do them? If there wasn't an economy, you could earn lots of money but I think the biggest disconnect is is that there's really two options with these resources. Creating is the resources in created either you're GONNA have a bunch of committees and bureaucrats charge money or you're going to have these really hard working people who know how to build things in the world like alumnus and Peter Thiel and all sorts of other people at different views who who, who, created this money using it as they see fit and I I you know it's amazing most. Of the money in the world. Now run by committees, you know most of the money is taken by pension funds, sovereign wealth funds like ninety, eight percent of mine. A world is controlled by these big slow boring things like insurance companies and those guys don't usually do anything that interesting whereas is small number of people who've created wealth and even that is the last free wealth in the world and then people wanting that and give it to the communities to it's like, what are you? What do you think any don't want people to know how to build taking this and using it for something. So you're giving me the perfect segue to I think. That a lot of people wonder about, how is it that a place like Silicon Valley that has so much of the spirit that you're talking about these people who want to change the world who want to invent and innovate in the rest of it? How is it that? The social justice thing, which is so counter to that many ways how did it affect almost everything to the point that everybody's leaving San Francisco right now. Yeah it's. It's. It's. It's a huge problem in the culture of Silicon Valley. There, this has been the case for a very long time is when you're when you're very successful and wealthy in philanthropic. I. Think I think a lot of people. Will have some level of guilt about their success and then and then in the Gulf is not rational. Guilty there's people who are poor in the world and you have success and in Celtic the cultural norm I think becomes beat becomes very, very careful about being proud of your success especially often any pride, any of that at all and in in the in the default becomes you know if you've taken over by the left at some point, I, don't know exactly how the people got charged here in. So many places partially because they're so loud I think there's five ten percent of people here who really believe in that stuff and they've got very good. I think it came from the university's look at our big tech companies, the Culture Google late model of office Stanford, it's all the. Same thing with the other ones and so these companies are basically taking a culture from university. You know it's been broken for a few decades and die, and these people are really good. Punish people who stand up to them and and trying to get them. So it's not worth people's time to push back. If you're trying to your job, you're just you're you're just you're just doing you're just do what you can and ask these people people get to be in charge. It's really bad. So how do you how do you run companies then and make sure that they don't get infected by these ideas? I, mean it's really important that you hire first of all like a lot of our companies you've got to be really careful you into your company. You do not want social justice activist who's GonNa be strengths up like I love with the the you of coin base Brian Armstrong put out the other day. There's a lot of shared and the our company's not about all these other things it's about our mission and you know we have there's other places you can go if you WANNA, focus on other missions this is our mission So a lot of my companies we spend you do some time must be really careful who we let in and asked to teach CEO's this is your job if you don't come to me a year from now and say as horrible as people are so distracting, they're pushing. Through, all these stupid things your fault for not figuring out in for hiring them. So this is something a lot people are learning about right now it's funny. I always find it interesting how it deviates from the core mission always like if every single commercial, you watch these days, it's a company, but it's not about their product. It's about what they're what quote unquote good they're doing the only company that I know may like major company that's not doing it as t mobile and they all their commercials are about their product and I'm always like, oh, there there's I. Know what they're selling it's incredible. Does he realize a real company and you know? I think there is a role. There is a role for consumer brands to stand for values. The people believe I think in a free market people that choose their mind towards brands that go towards things they believe in, and if it was purely reflecting the desire of the market I think that's interesting I. Think the problem is these big companies is marking apartments are conquered by people with these extremely woke views do not reflect their customers that becomes a really weird disconnected I'm hoping to Marco saw that eventually, but pushing back on some of these things. Yeah. All right. So let's back up to that. Poo. Poo Moment when you pooh-poohed the twenty, two billion. So. So. Okay. So pound here went to IPO about it's about ten days ago by the time we post this Can you just I've had Peter on as you know, but but can you explain what pound tear is I feel like penalty gets a lot of really bizarre press and people have no concept of what it actually is is because it is a pretty complicated thing to explain the best way I like to look at it is we're taking things that used to be done by T. services. So we started off in the defense world. World in the US government spends forty billion dollars a year gathering data and they spend. A similar amount of money paying it service professionals who try to build systems let the analysts you the data but shared etc, and it's a mess. They always produce go way over budget they waste billions of dollars. You'd expect on these things they're paying people do things the same in the nineteen eighties, nineteen ninety S, and so looking at this after nine eleven, we said wait a second hair, the technology in Silicon Valley got way ahead. Of Everything DC is doing now that's actually that was that was a sad thing for us to realize because when you're computer scientists, you look at the NSA in the nineteen seventies, they were way ahead of everyone else by far. So used to be government was way ahead is not anymore no question, and so he said he cowboy build up platform that out of the box replaced the need for tens of billions of Spencer or platforms in. An environment where you could take data from tons of places, the process it's very, very expensive hard to do and takes a very long time and then sure it makes sure only people who are allowed. You can see it allow people to build tools on top of it to to collaborate. So for example, we help, we help intelligence US around the world collaborate we. All aerospace companies their suppliers collaborate with data base basically helps you use all the data you're you're allowed to. You're allowed to use the only people who are supposed to see things see them. So it's a hard problem. So for for more libertarian, minded guys like you and Peter Does that cause like a little bit of a ethical dilemma you're working with the government. Will the whole the whole way to two different things. First of all, what was happening before we built pounds here was their building systems to see things with basically very little safeguards. Anybody who needed you imagine like Jack Bauer on the show at twenty four hours a terrorist. You just going to go on the database and take the data. He needs because otherwise someone's GonNa die right and so people are a lot of people exclusive screw deliveries i. Can't take whatever we can, and so ask Libertarians, we said, no, we're going to build pals here is going to give them more powerful access, but it's also build make audit trails. We're GONNA know exactly who did what we're GONNA enforce the rules and whatever the rules are. We're GONNA enforce them. We don't make the rules President Obama makes rules, President Bush made rules we were forced whatever the Congress has been forced those rules and so so first of. All first of all, it was actually pal like the most privacy engine in the world because really enforce it used here. It's very hard for you to get away with anything you're not supposed to do so that that was something we really heartened by the second one's nursing question I built a lot of things now in Gove Tech I think for me is part of being a realist. You think you asked about Libertarian Cato is the most famous. Libertarian in the Roman republic and what Kato would do is you wouldn't compromise at all of his really mired from being uncompromising and constantly fighting for what was right. But because he wouldn't compromise, you wouldn't work with POMPEII, Pompei went over to Caesar eventually lost three public because he was so stubborn he couldn't get things done and therefore you lost the entire thing and the entire thing was gone so as much as I admire Kato and a Hammer Katie. GROWN UP I'm a realist, and so I wanNA fight from is well as possible but the government is going to be doing something like let's actually help it reflect our guys for free society as much as possible helping not least billions as help and protect civil liberties. Let's help it actually get the terrorists because in the worst of all worlds is that the government is doing all these things and is viciously incompetent. Really bad for everyone. Yeah. You're speaking my language. So can you explain to me then as someone that has worked with the US government? Why are there so many government websites that are so ridiculously old and broken I pay I always use the example and and you as a California Guy I pay my California state taxes on a website that literally looks like it's prodigy from nine hundred ninety. Nine why is that? There's no, there's no accountability and there's no incentives and the people who win these government contracts are working through these really Byzantine procurement rules that favor the incumbents in favor of the people that have paid for massive amounts of lobbying between the same way since nineteen eighty seven or whenever they start building these things probably ninety seven for that website you know but instead so. Government is we need to completely change terminent works and we need to have accountability metrics in the same things you do in a business or businesses that we have a website there's certain rules for measuring how well it's doing and measuring the feedback pining NPS scores, right NPS scores when you get, you know how much people like it recommended to friends there's things like this. The government should not do and the The biggest problem is government has special interests everywhere especially, government unions the refused to let them be held accountable. So until we can hold our governments accountable. There's gonNA keeping being broken. Yeah. All right. I want to shift a little bit because as you know, we're we're doing locals week here and when I when I created locals and when I had the idea of locals and I brought some of the team locals, we had to raise a little bit of dough and I started asking around and a lot of people your name just kept popping. Up. People just kept saying this sounds like Joe Lonsdale you gotTa Talk Joe. Lonsdale I. Don't even remember I'm not even totally sure how we got connected but I. But I we jumped on zoom or skype and in the first conversation within five minutes you're like, yeah, I wanNA throw you guys some money and good luck and you've helped guide us with this thing wh when when someone approaches you. Doesn't have to be about local specifically generally when people approach you with ideas like this, like what goes through the checklist in your mind like Oh this is something I want to find her I see something here or you know I'm going to write a massive check for this one or a little bit for this one like what is the whole process like? Sure well so so you know ABC's venture fund run a multibillion dollar venture capital firm is forty people, nine partners and NEC. We we have different themes were focused on in the big question. There is what's possible. Now, it was not possible five years ago. That's the big question and we will really taught technology cultures intech talent in help nurture, and build those than we look for them working on his problems that are merely possible because again, the job of venture capital seawall the. have. A lot of things in that vein on my also do much smaller amount of personal investing when something is really important to me ideologically or for the world even if it doesn't fit exactly as my VC bucket. Love to support things, I think are very important for the world you guys are doing. Yeah. Do you sense that that the sort of small internet or the bottom up internet is the future we're gonNA move away from these big tech platforms and do things a little bit more like what we're doing with locals where people will create their own communities and kind of. figure out how to network up. So it's really just flip in the whole thing upside down I would I would I would love to be the case I think I think in some cases that will that will be what happens I get? The one of the challenges is unusual right now is in the old days when you think of a monopoly think of something. That gets to be somewhat decadent in this instance starts to decline and right now there's there is at least for today, advantage of the big companies have as they keep attracting very, very, very top talent. So as much as I think they're doing things that are morally and ethically wrong. A big challenge were gonNA face to bring that vision you mentioned which is very. Possible possibly good vision is, how do we? How do we compete for top talent? 'cause is very unusual circumstance. They may be monopolies, but they are they are tiring all all the top talent, which is very impressive to watch. Yeah, and it's like you've got some dough it's not like you can't compete but they've got they've got even more money machine Google is like as. People. Think powder being birth twenty, billion dollars something. Google's money machine. I. Think shoots off a three or four billion of free cash flow quarter is ridiculous. How much money these guys half do you know what? They're actually making money on at this point I've heard a bunch of people talk about this. What products do they have that are actually making money versus? Yeah, one of my companies actually is funds like hugh percent of their revenue, her Google and facebook it's it's it's the number to Amazon called. Wish we advertise in, we do like dollar store or stuff on live in in a Walmart Online, and so there's things like that were selling stuff to consumers and consumers are are finding it but there's basically everything everything you sal these guys make money on especially will anything anything you might search for anything you might want to figure out who google is GonNa be very, very good amounting. Yeah. What do you think generally about the? Subscription versus ad model these days is that changing a little bit now that people have of woken up to some of the stuff yeah I think you said I think for the bottom up world you're gonNA start seeing a lot more model how things work I think that is how media should work my favorite media a subscriber to whether it's whether it's like the information is is technology. You know it's kind of a little slightly well, but it's like better than the other ones attack. In fact, it's hard to find to find everything you get in, but it's like is is That you guys you guys features is is is there's a lot of people on there definitely were flying since driving to you so I I think things are shifting doctors because it's a healthier thing but but we're gonNA see hopefully get more in that direction. Yeah. So talk a little bit about your your political life. So I, what for people? That have no idea what what Cicero is can you just explain what they are I? Then we'll talk about your involvement a little bit. Yes. Sure. So you know it kind of grew out of a lot of my my other activity where you'd learn about different industries and you say, wow, this is really broken I. Wonder why this part of healthcare doesn't work this much better way would be five times as efficient in sometimes you'll find oh well, then you the system we need to do something as an entrepreneur mobile companies. But a lot of time to say you know it's not because the ones built a company is because the policy is wrong is like the policy here is causing healthcare to be three times as expensive. The policy here is causing housing to be twice as expensive should be in this area, and so the more look at politics in the more I get afraid of socialists you know coming in convincing our kids to be socialists the. More I've realized wow every area of society that's broken. It tends to be broken because of big government in because the best ideas are allowed to compete and win what you want society. The reason free society works. If someone has a better idea than idea wins out over time, this is a better way to do probation parole because less people will go back to jail. You want a way for that idea win and I think A. Lot of people don't understand this. They think the just published like this is a better way to imprison and people just adopted and then society will move forward and turns out. That's not how society works as a false models decided that Crutch Mall Society is you have to have a competition of ideas you have to have accountability something makes the ballot he has lose in God win and so Cicero is helping put forward laws is helping. Figure out where we can take these best ideas, identify them and create systems where the best ideas we'll win in these areas is the hardest part of that just the messaging where I think most people unfortunately, they just see Oh something's screwed up like it just need more money like that's just like the one level thought I. Think it's a really hard thing teach people to think in terms of systems. Most people are not systems thinkers. Systems good leader might say this is a program I'm going to give it money whereas great leader would say, how do we redesign the system so that the good things are winning in the bad things are going away and the redesign the system problem is is not is not people thinking that the market is in the markets with the systems. There is an in the morning reflecting the better systems about, but you're right people understand it very well right. So like can you give me a couple of examples like the type of things like let's talk about healthcare like what what can we do to clear up this health care mess? Dealing your presidential debate platform. There's there's there's there's so many things we pushing. There's there's a group called P., b. m.'s three of fortune twenty companies are pbs, pharmacy benefit manufacturers. They're the guys who to tell pharmacists with drugs. They could sell and make them available kind middlemen on drugs in. America in the all these things with a gag everyone and so one. Thing we stopped them from doing, which was good. It was till refined passed in the Senate two years ago I was very very putting forward is they used to say, okay pharmacists that there's too generic drug options in one even if one is twenty times cheaper than the other, your doctor prescribes the more expensive on you're not allowed to tell him or the patient. Can. Tell her the patient about the cheaper ones totally crazy, right. So so usually. Still got rid of that. That's illegal now. The there's a logic behind that. That's just purely because they're in the pocket of their concept. Is there cartel power they like being able to make tons of money? Isn't there cartel is saying we're not gonNA give you these other drugs only we have access to his cartel and it's really hard regulatory to compete with us. In unless you unless you don't tell these things but here's another thing they do. They don't let people tell the prices they're paying. So pharmacists would love to be able to say, Hey, other PPM upstart here's what I'm paying on these You know can you give me a better deal and that's illegal you're not allowed to prices are a trade secret according to these cartels in America there's lots of parts of healthcare like this will all the prices are trade secrets in there and they won't tell you ahead of time because that stops competition from coming in on them. So insurance companies would love to be. Able to go to other providers in saving these people are charging us this much over here pay we pay a lot less, but there's always there's always like gag orders where you can't do that against the rules and so in my view in order for free markets, work better you on competition and therefore you WanNa ban his gag orders since google or something only cartels a want it's amazing date you go to Congress and talk to senators and they say you know I've had all people visit me from farm lobby and they've explained to me that if this thing was transparent everyone collude percival go up like. Tiger he's like like, okay, guys. You're paying billions of dollars to convince you to convince you of this right and. that it was transparent, it would make the market not function as well, and it's like this is the senators on both sides man. I I. Love Work Issues Obviously believe in freedom and believe in free markets. But there are people bought off in this country on both sides by these lobbyists who who are not putting in the pro-market solutions, and so we're we're working hard on it I. I'm optimistic we're going to win but everyone on these areas There's there's there's like this just drives me crazy it's Kinda. Hilarious. You go into a Congressman's office they tell you that if they take the secrecy away and then everyone can actually negotiate prices will go up there. There's. Something in an economics only had. People on both parties in people in both were good eyesight tip you know. Enjoy driving crazy. Do you find the partisan gridlock? Do you find it? Is it fifty? Fifty is one side worse than the other is one side a little more I think generally speaking people on the right are a little more open to free markets up but is it pretty close people and water more open to free market stuff but I mean the freedom? Caucus, for example, why Meyer a lot of a lot of them are Kato's were the thing I said earlier where they're so extreme that they want him compromise a little bit is interesting. The Bush White House I I have a lot of rain for for Dick Cheney a lot of issues but Dick Cheney's was so stubborn advocate on this issue the he didn't want. To require transparency because he said the market be able to figure it out. We shouldn't have required transparency in but in all these other healthcare analysts including myself, say you know it's pretty obvious. You do need transparency here because that's the only way. It's GonNa work working there so many the monopolies and whatnot that you need to make some more like a market more. All your free society with more competition and he was afraid to impose transparency thought that was China Margaret do so it's interesting. You have people on the far right pretty transient sometimes how many things? Yeah. What else should we be thinking of as like the big issues related to to healthcare like okay. Prescription drug prices like like what are the other types of things? Really Big One, the biggest. So what you look for spaces you look for where all the contribution margin is what contribution margin is, and businesses is you know? It's it's how much money business are actually making before you know on the services providing and and and the biggest area of contribution margin is health providers. Health providers are hospitals basically are things like hospitals and it's really it's really regis how this works and it's tough because no one wants to be against their local hospital sounds like things should give money to an support but a lot of hospitals like Medicare Medicaid literally will pay two three times as much for the exact same. Service to a hospital versus clinic because hospitals have so much power in they've set things up that way where they're getting any. So we have to get paid more because we have more extensive and I'm thinking what in a market in the Patriots Times as much the same exact dot com or even a worse outcome and it's really interesting if you if you map out all these health systems that have bought up lots of things in an area to give themselves more pricing power because. They buy one nearby then you can't have competition you can't. You can't actually have insurance companies with this reasonable one this other one and I and it's really bad and here's the thing it's really crazy a lot. These health systems are nonprofits in. So you say it's a nonprofit that means it must be good good guy for the world's you can't do anything. So the FTC the Federal Trade Commission is not allowed looking nonprofits right now. So you have all these things, Don nonprofit. Have bought up massive amounts of area and then can jack up the prices a lot and people were in the nonprofit are making huge amounts of money even those officially non-profit and and it is a big problem. So one of the big things is antitrust antler the FTC to antitrust against nonprofits as well in in really what it's about it's about creating competition is about putting markets into placer. Yeah. How do you decide when the government can get involved there the libertarian side you. That's what you're saying about being a realist as. I mean another big. The Libertarian thing here is making it easier to start competitors right made it easier to start health clinics to compete. The problem is you have monopoly power as you're so dominant in that area and you're allowed to tell the health insurance. If you work with this guy, we won't work with you and everything secret you can't say what we're charging you. It becomes they basically become these things that the Kilhof petition. That's that's that's fundamentally un-american America works better. If you have competition these areas, there's lots of ways there's lots of. Good academic. Work. The monopoly or not, and is it's comical to me that we're going after the technically start right now when we have a much bigger problem, this country of the healthcare law plays all sorts of local levels and if the. US The academic literature that's been by both sides last seventy years. The conservative view of antitrust is in mind US cracked bark the barking view basically the created of the great legal scholars, which is you look at the impact on consumer prices and you very clearly see places where we're spending two three, four times as much for services. It's very clearly a motley. If there's any view, the FTC supposed to do something to me, that should be it so so and again if you say if You don't need government at all. Sure. If you got rid of all health care regulations I, mean it really easy to compete maybe this problem, it's all of a self, but we're not going to get rid of all those things. So therefore, let's let's find some way to competition and make it make it healthy right. So what what would the system look like? Like would hippie just a lot of individual companies that are sort of corralled by the government to have to play fairly like what? Was it actually you want to be as open as possible right I. Mean you want to be as open as possible. You want new tax competition to be able to come in. You want people to be to user on health plans. One of the things government messed up union was in the nineteen forties in World War Two. We may see you couldn't pay more, but you could give them benefits and intimate like healthcare but tax-free benefit. So treated the system in our country where we started expecting get things from of. Course people want to more space gave them better and better health plans and so everyone that youth outing a health plan from their company tax free and not choosing it themselves, and so dot rid of a lot of choice there and people don't even know some H. Some random HR person who's probably super well is the one when choosing your health care plan for you for a long Americans. That's not how things should work and so what what should be is it should be the the it should be the people to. Around health plans. So over Roy has something Sandra Brown, I think put out yesterday it was really great new health plan and what it is is basically it's a it's going to cover everyone is not gonNA. Cover rich people's means tested. So anyone fifty, five, hundred, you're not gonNA get Medicare if you're rich four and and is covered in the market, which is the everyone's private insurance company in any new startups, half the people have to choose the health insurance themselves, and in the meantime we're gonNA antitrust we're going. To have transparency and we're going to push back on these really sketchy tactics people use on Ip on drug. We've had the IP for decades they're still keeping expensive. So there's a combination of using markets using private insurance and you know in in means testing in this is this is a compromise again covering everyone, but basically basically everything's private but the bottom gets covered by by the government is a combination save money at work I. Think we need a compromise like this to keep our health system for yeah, have been tracking. What Jared Kushner is doing with Oscar, is that related to any of the types of things? That's that's brother Josh. No. Sorry. Joshua. Yeah Jer Jared Jared is very busy. Scary Jerry's got other things going on Yeah Josh Josh. I'm a I'm a fan of the Kushner Kushner brothers and I've I've read a lot of my friends in the valley. Oh, it's your it must guys be horrible and I I showed himself he's doing or connect them to him in the end up liking in person he's actually pretty smart guy in my opinion Josh. Job With Oscar. You know there's a lot of ways. Oscar uses data uses telemedicine no one done before. It was fascinating and we got a bunch of clinics on a platform. Of course you know this is the health insurance companies growing quickly, and I put on a million dollars into us than we are. We are at one of my twenty three big investments and in there, and there's like his pediatrician group and said how come we're not on your platform and we told them. Listen you guys spend three times as much on tests either pediatricians in this area and he said, wow, we didn't know that no one ever told us that before and we said we say what is strange space like these people have no idea how much money they're spending this is such a broken area even told them that they were doing things unnecessarily necessarily and so. Yeah. So a lot to kind of push off insurance use data to be a better to begin to be better force under under bullish on it. Yeah. I, know you're you're one of your other sort of main places of interest is criminal justice reform I feel like this is one where almost everyone agrees something be done and there can be something that sort of bipartisan and in many ways, trump seems to be trying to do things that I thought left these were fighting for for for a long time. How can we fix this clearly broke jumping jared delon good job on this. There's a lot of people on the right who are suspicious of some of this that I I don't blame them. A lot of criminal justice before on this being pitched like getting rid of the bail or you make you rest these guys get out for arrest them again and they get out you have to rest them. There's a lot of ridiculous criminal justice reform a Mama for any of that. The part that I am for is is again, how can you fix this systems that are feeling people? So you know few systems that are feeling people. One of them is probation and Parole Others Literally Amazing Probation Parole officers. Who really spend time you know deploying the tactics to lower recidivism the healthy people and like they see their job as they're serving these people want to keep him out of prison they want to help them succeed in life and they want to be easy on them Ziama. Kevin. Harlan. Than when it's helpful for them and his obligation Pearl Office were absolutely horrible in there nasty to these people and they get a job is too far away time to see the officers they thrown back in prison Whatever it is, they're just like making so tough on him, and so the question is, how can you have incentives for? Patient? Parole. Not Usually Fan of California His earlier. I know you're still saying here in the state one thing they did really well, eleven years ago is a bipartisan bill where they change the incentives for county probation offices to actually get to keep some money if they didn't send as many people back to prison as long as Farmington up in working streuli well, save the state of billion dollars over the last eleven years and we're actually Tannen to something similar. We're taking those successes in which people hey, let's do this for California Parole Nancy. Let's. Actually have incentives for the parole officers actually care about doing their jobs because what happened he seems you passed that law has all his office started studying insuring notes what works lower recidivism? How do we do? How is this? How do we care about everyone's getting measured? You Know Bob you've sent everyone back to prison in the last seven years that's really hurting numbers maybe you should care about not duchess sending back try to work with them and try to help them in. Here's in tactics techniques we found work And so it's amazing how the accountability in these areas could do. Yeah. What about education were? What's what's going on here? It seems to me choice choice choice choice choice, and yet that seems to be a scary thing to people. Yeah well, I'm generally obviously a fan of choice as the thing we're talking about in every area is competition choice. There's different levels of education All him a really important guy to our if these kids when they're young and make sure they're not thrown by Marxist is little kids That's important. But in terms of the incentives we think we can work on incentives are easier to do with at the latter part of Education 'cause you measure the results in one of my favorite programs to to really go after right now there's something called Pell grants and their progress were created for good reasons really well meaning trying to. Help people from baths, backgrounds, or lower socioeconomic backgrounds succeed in life incentive to college, and the problem is accountability at all. So we spend thirty billion dollars a year day on pell grants in this country and the results -pletely. Different. So there's there's some there's some schools to do a great job in for exacting type of kids. They'll have kept twice a salary coming out of those schools as others, and when you think about university is not just about getting a high salary. That university is about it is about being a graces in to live in a free republic. It is about your moral action. Those are both legit things for universities to care about. But the third thing definitely is learning how to get skills get a job learning how to actually succeed in line in your if we're going to spend thirty billion dollars a year maybe part of the Pell Grant Program should care they're getting skills are not going to these schools in because the results are literally two to one the questions. Okay. These really really crappy schools, but it probably all become protesters or God knows. What they're GONNA do afterwards have jobs in the average salaries. You know twenty one thousand away from them. Maybe it'd be shouldn't be giving many parents to go to those schools in these great ones where people are making more than twice as much as that maybe they should be getting more right. So the question is, how do you put incentives into these programs to take into account the data in right into that at all and our government probably should yeah do you think we could just let a whole bunch of these public schools just fail and just that would just clear out the brush that. If you do this title for to that, when Council tunnel, the longest one, hundred, billion dollars alone to give that, and it's pretty obvious that pell grants plus tuttle for our propping up like this bottom thirty percent of these schools that are just absolutely horrid schools probably care a lot more about whatever crazy ethnic studies things they're doing, whatever racism, their teaching, our kids, and they actually care about anything helpful for America. So yes, Japan did this recently, they close a bunch of their like of their like kind of weaker kinda accurate liberal arts, departments, schools, and it was the outcry with me. Pretty Awesome. The Japanese that Yeah Yeah I think we can do that. Too now now now, of course would be more something right would you in the left would scream bloody murder. So rather than do that, let's just start with some incentives. Are we kind of maybe new trim the bottom incentives that are nonpartisan abby I hope is non-par solution here they can push forward i. so even if you could do some of that stuff and you change what you're doing with grants in some of the handouts and some of that kind of stuff, do you think that the academic layer of it has just been so corroded and calcified and corrupted that it almost won't matter whether whether they pull some of the string purses and that kind of thing. You know I think people respond to money. There's gotTa, be son academics there that are going to be wacky and useless anyway. But there's GonNa be some of these boards reaction sale while rather than talking our entire board meeting about how well we are on how to be more woke. Maybe we should look at this data that says we're not teaching a useful skills and maybe we should see what these five schools they're doing. Great. Are Teaching need. We should like add some of those in for these poor kids that are coming here to try to build a life rather than just brainwashing them and you're right. Not every one of them is going to say that number just going to be completely dysfunctional, and then that's that's why markets are such an important thing. The markets get rid of bad ideas, right so these things are not working the school's GonNa Shrimp. Because there's GonNa be some accountability you know. So so that that is it's song can adapt and I think some probably should go. Yeah. So as a as a pretty forward thinking guy in a forward thinking industry. Lincoln this back to the political thing I think a lot of people feel like we're sort of at the end of something like my feeling right now with our political gridlock is just we're just at the end of this thing the fact that a whether you like them or not that seventy seven year old is running against the seventy four year old one of them's been in politics for forty seven years. One of them's. Been in private industry forever good bad indifferent. It doesn't matter that we're just sort of at the end of this cycle. What do you think we need from our politicians after this did well first off do you think there is an after this? Do you think we get out of this thing or does it reconstitute itself in some other evil form for years now? You know it seems very likely. That, we'd potentially if you if you get some kind of Biden vitamin, victory, you get some kind of like the whole thing goes on a little bit longer and in you know what we need is we need competent outsiders breaking into government in shaking it up. We need people who understand systems without really means you need. You need you need some non well computer scientist frankly use them engineers who know how to run things, and that's something as much. As I am disgusted by CC PM by things China does when you advantage China has in certain areas is that the majority of the people in charge there have engineering backgrounds majority of people in charge of our country right now have our lawyers and and Macho the right answer for the future what we need people were optimistic. WHO's who painted vision of House country can't be much better I mean, this is what drives me crazy Davis it's obvious how We have enough ability to generate wealth and prosperity for everyone we have a golden age. Basically, we have diseases being friend Jennifer won the Nobel prizes morning for for Christopher writers amazing stuff going on this country in amazing potential and when you people who could take the optimism take the is a free society and show positive some ways of solving our problems and I think we can get that. But it's going to be a different set of leaders we have right now. Lonsdale that's a pretty solid closing statement. Although although, wait a minute I. Feel like I have to ask you one more. Now you know with locals we haven't even gone into series yet but when I get this thing to, IPO what kind of party do I throw at the twenty two billion? Like what do you do? What do you do that? What do you do that night? I out about. You know it's funny I had about thirty firms who built it with me of the fifty people I invited twenty when already moved out in California. So I'M GONNA lead next week but it was is a it's it's it's a good success. You know it's it's not penalty never as much. It is honestly case there was much about the money we we help them target and eliminate over. Eight thousand bad guys including the most famous ones in the last decade helped our country and we've helped save huge amount of money. So I'm really tired of the company. Awesome. Well, Jones L. I enjoyed talking to you and I'm enjoying working with you and I'm going to see if I can add a couple more zeros to your situation. Let me see what I can do over here. You thanks day. All right. Thank you. Okay. If you're looking for more honest and thoughtful conversations about tech instead of nonstop yelling checkout our tech playlist, and if you WANNA watch full interviews on a variety of topics, check out our full episodes playlists they're right over here and to get notified of future videos be sure to subscribe and Click the notification bell.