BlockChannel #59- Insight on Crypto Investing with Ari Paul
So go let you go. All was fast one win. Torch man would have four five steps to the door like all my gosh cash running back and I couldn't believe I'm store is conceived for. No reason is in season button day. You can find me. Baby Jabeen go. Hey guys welcome back. A block channel. We're back for episode fifty nine not quite episode sixty which have been a nice way to start off this next season so we just finished up season freedom on last episode episode fifty eight finishing up talking with everyone working on interoperability working on. You know freedom enhancing tools. You know trying to sort of expanded general's base in the now. We're moving into Alamo. Where like to call season bull run So this'll be mostly be trying to have discussions with Investors in this space speculators in space etc. It's SORTA SORTA like work our way down the line to the different important stakeholders and that makeup the overall governance of Crypto And so you know that includes the retail investors developers. The foundations cooperatives etc. And so. We're going to try and focus on those that are helping to bring the quitting space manage assets also invest into like other projects and things like that And so you know as myself as an investor to I'm it's always great to talk and learn From her millennials like Denton Space And so the this season will mostly be focused on that and joining me again for another awesome season Dmitri a little bit busy entitled lately so today I was able to. Just get corey. Pity on here with me. So Introduce yourself to the audience for episodes fifty nine absolutely excited about the new season. Hope it's aptly named Doctor Corey petty from the BITCOIN. Podcast that work and status The doing a lot of Token economics research. The past years are excited to kind of get into this part of the discussion with different different types of people. We haven't done that yet and so I think it's going to be fun. We don't you guys talk about this stuff on hashing it out podcasters mostly just a low levels. Though it's mostly low level technicals. We HAVEN'T GOTTEN INTO CHRONIC. Shed every may end up doing that but not sure yet Okay well Will that be are the perfect guest to have on from the space that I'm sure if you're in CRYPTO In the future definitely heard of them before very handsome gentlemen Ari Paul when one of the more popular faces on Crypto. Twitter looks really great glasses So essentially so we're going to be talking to a hint today about his firm in but not necessarily what he does with most probably familiar with him. So we'll just try and give you a brief inter m give you a brief introduction. Sees me and then we'll kind of just go into other topics You know maybe like you know token engineering things like that. Like peyton mentioned Greg Governance when you know we'll just sort of riff on it so are adapting second. You just introduce yourself to the audience and just give us a however you feel is the most brief introduction of yourself. Yeah Hey Steven A. I Really a pleasure to be here every time I've chatted with you over the last couple years I've always learned a lot so You know I've I've appreciated our friendship and and it you know in in how I define myself I on my twitter handle I student And that is very much myself in the space and you. You've been a great teacher so thank you for that The really brief intro I was in the traditional financial world. I as a derivatives trader trading options electricity commodities treasury bonds then. I was a portfolio manager for the Chicago Endowment which is kind of very long term investing So I really only joined the crypto world in two thousand seventeen. I've been investing before that but I didn't really kind of join the community until twenty seventeen and yet it's it's very much i. I love this industry because there's so much learn so much changing and we get to philoctetes it's really interesting. Mix of being a futurist and a philosopher. Trying to think about you know How this can impact your politics and and humanity and so into perfect introduction in so that being said Where you are now in weakened be succinct. Maybe you can just give us a quick introduction on what you're doing now as a block our yeah so in two thousand seventeen co-founded blocked our which is crypto investment firm and yet we do everything Active trading early stage investing kinda anything and everything goes also being said. You've been in the space for a relatively. You know short period of time compared to most people but already pretty well Tivoli well-known. Why do you think that is where where? Where did you find yourself interjecting yourself? I as a relative newcomer coming in and around twenty seventeen from a more traditional finance background. With where did you find your place where you're able to kind of pick up everything kind of really get up to speed yet? You know honestly. No one was more surprised than me that I like shot to prominence in two thousand seventeen so quickly And the reason for that really simple I think there was just a lack of kind of air quotes Wall Street people Public and Crypto and so the crypto community had there's real demand for for basics from Wall Street. So like I'll do tweet. Storms really simple Introductions to how options work how that might apply to Crypto and thinking about portfolio management risk management and applying that to crypto and. I think there's a lot of demand for that content and then similarly on Wall Street I I think I think it was a translator. So I would pitch Crypto to Wall Street Wall Street's own language and I would explain to the crypto world. Why people like Warren Buffett and Jimmy? Diamond were wrong right like like I think. Part of the reason people like me was twenty. Seventeen you would all these financial luminaries. You had Nobel Prize winning economist. You had billionaire hedge fund managers all saying that. Bitcoin's a bubble and then someone like me saying hey guys I come from that world. I understand their arguments. And here's why the wrong you know. And that's a message that is very well received. That's one hundred percent true. I've always found that like the translators they can put a foot in both both sought both sides end up becoming Surfacing to the top much much quicker because they have a larger audience right. If you can talk to both people you can speak both languages. The process of that. You can break down things in the language of the people you're talking to and a part of that is kind of where I want to go with. The question is A lot of people who do I guess? Evaluations are trying view. Crypto currency from traditional financial perspective tend to use models from the financial world which don't quite encompass like the breadth of cryptocurrency because cryptocurrencies brand new asset. In my opinion it transcends the idea of of old money which means that the models to us from previous places can never actually fully grasp that type of thing you haven't given like inside us like what people are doing now or attempt to change that need to be made to start actually getting a better picture of currency could be from a financial perspective totally agree. I never tried to twist. Whilst REMODELS FIT CRYPTO It's more like More applying high level concepts so for example like Especially in the investment side. So if you're managing a portfolio crypto assets in some ways that similar to a portfolio of fx or commodities things like management. Don't change that much but totally agree I don't know that there's an when you're talking about actual financial modeling for longer term investments. Slightly you know. What is something worth? I've actually found very little valuable from Wall Street. there are some assets like The binds coin or Leo the BIFF INEX- Coin. That are somewhat like equity where you can try to apply kind of discounted cash flow model. Even there I try to constantly caution people like. Hey Guys. This is an equity. You don't have the same legal rights. There's all this counterparty risk you know But but value something like if you're in Bitcoin. I haven't found anything useful from Wall Street. Really so it it is a new world and that's something. I love so you know you things like the fat protocol thesis from grow and then Crisper Nikki adding MVP Q. In then everything from Willie on chain stuff to You know there's a constant integration of new valuation methods. They're all so broad so high level so abstract. I think they're good thought experiments. I don't have a concrete model. I I'll tell you that the only the only that I have any model for really bitcoin. And here's the mental model. I use I think the addressable market but it's trying to answer is The closest analogy is the offer banking system which twenty thirty trillion and the offer banking system. It is used for Things like illegal activity but it's also used by every large. Us Company and every billionaire in the world even law-abiding ones and they want to have their assets stored in a seizure resistant way so like the this is this is the example used the converts the most people on Wall Street to Bitcoin It's Amazon has money. Offer banking system. Why because if they didn't if they had all of their assets in New York state bank a single judge could freeze their account pretrial Amazon. Shut their doors. The next day because it will be insolvent Amazon. It's not that you want to get away with illegal activity that you WanNa have your day in court and you really want your five to ten years in courts. You've assets spread all over the world and all different legal jurisdictions so that one capricious judge in New York state. Can't just arbitrarily shut you down so my mental model is I think bitcoin is competing with the banking system. But it's much much much better And if everyone around the world could make use of that you know in a cell phone APP with thousand dollars or one hundred dollars no friction at all how many more people would have equivalent of a Swiss bank account. So I'm pretty confident that use case is something like fifty plus trillion and then you say okay well. What are the odds? Bitcoin wins that maybe it doesn't maybe theorem winds. Maybe something else wins. She apply some discounts of that similar to a seats. Hvac mindset you know. Can you dress will market is fifty trillion? Maybe we think this project is a ten percent chance of capturing that or a five percent so that gives you at least some Super Rut like basically the only model I have and it's kind of like an early stage. Vc approach to new technology so that being said taking early stage reecey approach When it comes to you know block tower on your new investments. You guys generally focused on you know just like Path actively trading a headstone manor against like the general market or. Do you guys like setup to also make investments in ABC standpoint. What what do y'all like normal focus in of that. Which gives you? What are you most interested in right now? Yeah I'm I maybe frame it this way so I mean I'm an investor in this industry because I believe in the giant long term potential. My Day job is most is more on the active side. Might my personal background is as a traitor in an also portly matter but not really I was never gonNa Veasey provisionally so But blocked our does also do some early stage investing It's a minority of what we do. It's not the primary focus Frankly part of the reason that I like us doing everything is this is such a tiny industry and so many synergies synergies a terrible word but What I need that is it's very. I don't know what it means to be an investor in liquid tokens and ignore the liquid. Because it's such an artificial divide right like you might have a more mature project. That is not yet exchange-listed and you have a bunch of exchange-listed projects for the main that has been launched right even your see twenty older so if I invest in theory him and I completely agree for all the early stage competitors with uranium. I feel like I'm not doing my job. Like I kinda need to compare the liquid and the liquid so I want to be looking at this early stage deals to know what might come in displace at your Emmer Bitcoin or you know something else. Does differ prevailing sentiment in thoughts around the sort of illiquid in unlatched side. Have detained like your day to day or month to month. Trading Strategies When you look at the overall market when you say hey like if this is the position rather go short against a position rather belongings are you also comparing it against like a string of maybe soon to launch or potentially soon to launch Monday as relation. Question usually not day to day but it does more thematically civic sample like in two thousand seventeen especially twenty seventeen theme that we're all of these ICO's theoretical if you're in killers and they were all pretty much. They were kind of garbage. They were minor iterations. They're like Oh let's take a theory. Menendez one little thing which makes no sense. Anyone out there is going to launch a new protocol. You have to be ten X BETTER THAN ONE EXAM TODAY. You CAN'T. You can't be iterative you can't take on facebook saying you're GONNA be facebook with one extra feature right like network effects so that was a that whole string of. Ico's was dumb but you know we saw that wave coming and we saw the attention was getting in the interest and that did impact my thinking. On how theory was likely to do you know at at around that stage. So it's it's less day to day in a little more thematic a here's another example like if we see a bunch of early stage projects that look like they might leapfrog. Minero and Z. Cash on privacy tech that might impact you know making on on those assets over the next six months exactly exactly take similar apportionment kind of dislike taking a high level view of the overall prevailing since both financially in the in the existing liquid markets but also technically on both did liquid and liquid side on string of milestones releases etc that might affect the overall market when they ought to have made the consideration of the likelihood of the I guess the pedigree of those teams actually getting exchange listings in any any viable markets. Actually make them competitive even generate yourself any off depending on how you had things setup so yes I take similar for the two one other thing. I'd add one piece as I have. That is is one of my more strongly. Held once is that gaming is going to be a really interesting thing in the crypto ecosystem over the next few years. Probably one of the first Mainstream cases and when I'm looking at the base protocols like a theory of Tron Yaas all of those and we're trying to figure out okay. We're is going to be the most adoption. You shouldn't growth over the next year or two right like forget about your long-term view on on where developers going to build as if you're GONNA get all of that share and so like we talked to a lot of early stage DA- projects and you know like there was briefly a period. Where a bunch said they were looking at. Ron and another period. Where Bunch said they were looking at. He Austin so obviously matters to like. I think it was a placeholder that just published their valuation metric for protocols which is just basically. You measure the value of the Tokens on top. I do that another thought experiment. I certainly wouldn't use that evaluation techniques -plicitly but it is interesting thing about and so you know if we saw massive wave of really say projects that are going to build on lightning. Let's say and we saw that. They were credible. They might get consumer adoption That would certainly people bitcoin and bullish the equity of lightning startups. You know and I'll say on that point like you see a hint of it but it's still super hard to build a consumer APP on lightning like it still feels a little too early for that to really take off. That was kind of curious like I feel like the scope of things to keep track of these days has gotten so broad. So it's almost it's almost impossible. Maybe not you can tell me this to keep it a full perspective on what's happening across the board. And how do you? How do you parse through the muck of good projects bad projects quantity of projects to try and get that kind of those overall trends to see to to make those decisions on man? It's it it is impossible. I think to keep track of everything. I I used to feel guilty about that now. I just accepted as the reality So I I think actually in two thousand seventeen a funny comment a Zuko. Wilcox founders cash. Asked me if I'd heard of some project I forget what it was and I said No. I haven't heard of it. And he was. He was feeling bad that he hadn't heard of his privacy focused project. And it's like you know I stephen and Corey role working crazy hours were in this ecosystem. We're living breathing and drinking and there's so much I don't know about you guys may be it for me. At least there's so much that I don't hear about. Oh Yeah I. I used to think that I can keep up with everything in the nose at some point within the past maybe eight months a year. I was like no out I used to be able to. I used to do it regularly. And I I was proud of that and then I got some pointers like I am miserable trying to and I'm not even be capable of doing it. So you have to specialize in some way I can can just accept that and it matters less than you might think on the investment side so on the tech side. It probably matters a lot because you wouldn't want to be building on an obsolete technology or miss you know. A major is an investor. Though you don't it doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter because basically you can get in as long as you head of the hurt. It doesn't really matter when you get in as long as your head of the masses right and so for those of us who were you know insiders if that's a great word but like you know living breathing the industry. We can be pretty confident. We're going to get in pensions right. Like whatever that new thing is if we thought that You know pick your favorite protocol outside of the biggest ones we thought that was going to caucus world at least for some niche. You and I and the listeners here are certainly going to hurt of it before a pension investment you know so I that that's what lets me sleep at night that I don't either to be the first to identify the next killer protocol. I just need to be head of the herd and frankly that's that's fairly easy. I think because you know I mean ninety nine point nine percent world barely knows. Bitcoin is yes true. I guess it just depends on the scale and how much money you have access to whether it's your own personal wealth or institutional wealth. It's it's it's as long as you're at least ahead of the game near here now. You're following day to day. You're probably going to hear an inkling of something worth something way before you know anyone with enough bags of put it anywhere near anything exciting. You might miss the seed rounds but likes and that matters of course but but in the big picture. So what? Right like maybe. Maybe he didn't mind the coin and twenty nine. Maybe you got in in two thousand twelve. You're still pretty happy today. Of course there's there's there's at least a trend there you should be aware of and that is whenever you stop trying to go to the source of everything and and figure it all yourself tend to rely on people who aggregate aggregate information. See your kind of trusting someone else to feed you proper information or you're relying on different sources that aren't aren't you? Use specifically and that that these a little bit of room to catch the bias of someone else and and Miss Industry because it's so small in swayed by money. That could be a dangerous thing. I think you have to look out for that. As an investor. I feel like those. You're the audience that people like that would go go after at least try to get the the mindshare attention of you have you have you. Have you witnessed? That felt that are rare. Vet Yet totally. You know. This is actually a very few things I think. I'm good at Which is weighing competing expert opinions and Divine End Kind of separating out their biases. So yeah I mean this is like I. I'm not technical. I don't pretend to be a cryptographer and engineer I rely entirely on technical experts to tell me what's real and the very best technical. Experts in the space will air quotes lie and lie air quotes meaning. They will make declarative definitive statements with confidence because their biases right. I mean what am I? Favor examples no use him because he's he's so brilliant I think he's a few people like in the world that I've used like scary brilliant The topic is definitely one of them. Greg Maxwell is another These are people like you'll get Greg Maxwell's work on the cutting edge equipment like there. Aren't that many people in the world who can even follow it and someone like Maxwell who early in bitcoins life famously said that. He had proven that. Bitcoin could never work like he literally wrote wrote on a message board. I have mathematically proven. That doesn't work right. He of course then was converted and his team actually wasn't even wrong. He was kind of claimed he was proving. I think if I remember right that Bitcoins model wasn't truly Byzantine fall tolerant. So he was actually right. It just happens to work in practice. But the point is that you know if you're turning to Maxwell for a judgment on a theory him you know there's a lot of ice there right. He's a million times smarter than me but I can still discount his opinion and adjust for bias and of course of the Theorem. Experts of you know so I think we have to do. Is You have to collect competing opinions like you're so if I'm trying to evaluate a new privacy. Coyne I'm GonNa ask you know Ricardo's back need Minero Zucca Wilcox Z. Cash their opinion on it if both of them tell me the grudgingly that it's not a total scam meeting the man. Yeah I definitely I definitely agree there so that being said outside of just like the general I guess technical portion. Like where do you if you guys are going to make like for instance like early stage related vest means I those? Are those used to sort of like inbounded. From like your generalize like network or are like are heard are there ever actually instances where it's Oh. This person is actually brilliant and they have an idea here and I'm gonNA put everything in front of him to make this thing There've been there've been a couple of cases where it was a little more the latter but frankly were not At least currently not structured terribly well to be like really early seed stage. Vc firm that a scouting talent relying on other firms to do that. And then they'll either bring us into rounds because You know they they think we can add value or even a mixed capital One thing I tried to focus on a little bit is Projects that are less technical. So like I'm not GonNa be as good at you know. Validating an early stage protocol as you are or as polly chain is or is a lot of other firms are that are much more. Technically focused where I think we might You know have more of comparative advantage. Things on that are a little more commercial focus. So there's a lot of crypto projects even prod even dapper example. Where obviously the tech has to be right. But it's not really a tech project. Use a project you look at facebook. Facebook is not a tech company. Right yes service after work. Yes their data centers have to function. Yes you know. All of that matters but as an investor don't look at his Tech Company. You look at it as a consumer company you know so. I think the same Struan Crypto. There's lot adapt projects where you need to confirm that their engineers know what they're doing but really it's a bet on the go to market on consumer acquisition on On on the business side and those are the projects where we can also add more value just because we have a little more experience in that area academic more actually. It's one of those situations. Where were we have a lot of people say the vast majority people right now? Who are developing things looking at Really really low layers in the stack. There are a lot of engineers doctors people who have kind of actually now alcon to crypto currencies school and some curation performing university got decrease that way but what we're lacking autoways ways is is user facing applications that just work for them that utilize a lot of tech that that everyone else's building and I think the next wave of things. It's going to be that type of stuff or at least the big thing about what people say like the adoption killer of the killer APP what. Brexit brings mass adoption things like that. It's going to be something that people Going to give you an example of something. I always say When I was younger I I didn't have an xbox. I only reason I got one is because I needed to play halo two. That's the only reason and so I had to buy the tech to facilitate the need and right now. There isn't a lot of need right now. Cryptocurrency for for people who don't quite understand it or care about it to go out and use it totally I grant. Who was he was either Jason Haaretz a USB published a good piece on on on the debate basic which comes first attack or the applications that was USB and that was a danny grant in another person that friend of mine yeah I think maybe Nick Nick I'm GONNA mess up. His last name. Is Nick Nick? Newly partner use the. I think he can wonder that. There's great peace in and just to summarize if it listeners and if you Google Google it's on usb blog talk yet. I mean there was basically just That it there is no single. Answer that interrupt that basically you get you get a little bit attack and some hobbyists play with it and you get a little bit of adoption. And then the tech is a is a limiting factor. Right in that you can't get more an option so then there's more tacked on. There's more adoption than his more tech So I think prior to maybe twenty seventeen there was a general sense that Twenty seventeen there were so many issues of consumer focused and then we realize it's too early There is an you know we we need. We need more scale ability. I we need more Stability and protocols we need you know like it. It's very hard to talk about having distorted if you're gonNA talk about storing like token is assets. And there's even questions around multi sick. You know insecurity around that like and then also the infrastructure in the industry so things like custody like trying to pitch a casual user to buy your token to play a game and they have to use a ledger. Hardware Wallet And I I have this debate. Constantly people in Crypto. They're like are your Nydia lead for not hard to use Your grandmother is not going to use one. And you're and your brother's probably could use one You know they. They still have a couple of hours of learning curves and the idea that you could lose your money. If you fail to back up your seat properly is pretty terrifying. The average person so the general infrastructure of the industry also wasn't And probably I think we're getting really close But like no one's GONNA use Madame ask period. You know what I mean. I've met a mask is a command line. Interface like engineers in the seventies. Were like what do you mean? Emails argues you just compile your email in a you know links cam line But the average person can use command line. The average person's never can use Meta mask. The percentage is it isn't even gonNA use a modern hardware wallet. Because they're they're not plug and play right like now in a world. Where the IPHONE? Steve Jobs obsessed over whether it would take three or four clicks to get into the heart of an application from the Main screen you know. So I think we're finally at the point where The simplest use cases Are Ready for that. If theorem defy I think is pretty much ready You know they're working on. Ui But you know it's Kinda ready Games I think scale abilities effectively also like we run a loom validated for example And you don't need l. One level security to store your level. Ten wizard So I think saleability is basically solved for a lot of minor use cases So it is largely a UI issue Looking at the gaming space there haven't been that many games that are fun to play that you would just actually WanNa play service CRYPTO and. I think I'm optimistic. That's going to change. We are seeing a real fun game development. I actually have an analyst who works with me steeply and tasked him with playing a lot of this terrible job. It's terrible. It's funny the first day I had him do what he lost. One hundred dollars Through Meta mask. And it's not you know and that's common like even engineers will say they make some mistake. Meta mask and end up losing money because it just it's awkward it's But we are seeing the first wave of games that could just be playable on their own and then you tack the critter. Like here's here's how I think it's GonNa work. You're going to download a game on your iphone APP. You're going to get to the level five. Not even knowing Crypto game it just fun viral game. It's angry birds. You know. And then level five pop message says hey by the way if you want to transfer your items into our sister game you can do that if you wanna sell your items of your character on Ebay. You can do that because you own your stuff. And here's how but you won't have to do it. It'll be fun at onto an already viral game. I agree and by the way the the the article you're referencing before is called the myth of the infrastructure face and that was written by Danny Grant and Nick Grossman from Union Square Ventures Scotsman Eh Guy Yup and You know that being said you know a is there? Is there any applications or is there any like d fire related activities platforms etc? That give you a more either. Like bullish outlook on the space in short order midterm. Or do you see us still kinda threw a you know another like maybe short midterm exploratory phase before we get there it it is going somewhat slowly. Like I'm not seeing I. I think we are seeing some gaps that are getting closer to that viral level. But I don't I don't know that we're there yet. I personally haven't seen the game or the data that I'm like man. I can totally see this. Just organically going viral once. It's in the IPHONE STORE. You know I haven't quite seen that like like. I think we're getting there but it my guess on this bull run into tied into the the name of your new season I do think for the next six months probably twelve to eighteen. This'll probably more store value story. I think it's GONNA be slow to get to that point where you know basically the promise a twenty seventeen of all these killer APPs Really see the next six months. I think it's more like twelve to eighteen And that's that's optimistic. That's hoping that You know that the people create some great apps agree you is agree that in so Last question here steady. If you don't have another one okay it's GonNa GonNa just like closing up with just like your thoughts around like you know what lessons have you learned. As an asset manager in the space you transition from the traditional climates Space aside from always being you know a student and always being open to learn from different subject matter experts which is always important. When you're going to any jargon heavy you know Industry but hope to transition over across binary skills aside from that. What is what is what is the lesson you've picked up do your transition and his reign board from someone who might be looking from the outside from traditional finance in looks to move into. Quebec. Let's see so for specific to me. The thing that I really didn't anticipate so I was very aware. That crypto has these bear cycles that every two years we've had eighty percent less crashes. I fully expected that cycle to repeat what I didn't really take into account was the impact that would have on the business side. So the idea that you have to deal with like hiring in. Hr in the top of a raging bull market which presents its own challenges right. Everyone's confident they're gonNA make a million dollars in the next month and everyone's becomes very shortsighted and then dealing with hr at the depths of a bear market where people are thinking about even stay in the and is is crypto dead and you know people's family members bringing them. And saying you know were you okay and all that stuff right so having to deal with both the bull and bear side running a business at those extremes so close together Definitely was a lot of work and Kind of caught me off guard and to tie that into a broader lesson. I think Like I'm always surprised. People in traditional finance with Ari the fact that Bitcoin fell eighty percent invalidate. Your ipod assistance. Like no that's what it does every two and a half years. That's part of the model almost if it is a boom bust cycle for a bunch of reasons that even Toshi kind of predicted that instead. That's part of how you get. Adoption is through that speculative greed you know so similarly when people enter the space either as traders investors as developers be mentally prepared for that. It's not if it's when you'll have another eighty percent crypto crash where the public media declares the CRYPTOS debt. If you mentally are prepared for that it's almost like the STOIC mentality of like practicing poverty like tell yourself like this. This is less of a message for now is more of a message for hopefully in six or twelve months when we're in a mania phase And you know the question is if it's when you're in will be ten thousand dollars coin When that's happening remind yourself. This will fall eighty ninety percent at some point. My relatives will ask me if I was an idiot for being in this industry immensely prepared for that. Of course if you sold at the top that time could you learn your lesson this time? Hopefully then you'll have enough leftover your treasury. When you pay taxes to take care of yourself you can buy back low. And that's that's the importance of Crypto. I always made the joke many times. And it's just like you comment early. If you've been in crypto within two years was a good chance that you're gonNA have to evangelize yourself back to black Because you're GONNA have to eventually yourself on the wrong end of Wendy cycles and it just GONNA have to learn. Learn learn and so you're back above water and And so yeah so so that being said thank you for coming on all right. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us again and you know please please continue to share educate in Nubia translator for industry. A definitely a appreciate your particular flavor in. It's always been a pleasure working with you learning alongside you Collaboratively in this industry. So thank you for all you do and petty the everything else not. I'll get extra coming on. I really enjoyed that. Thanks so much Stephen. Corey death figuring much. Ram We'll have you back on hopefully in the future in the midst of all the mania and we'll see how your thesis have changed and maybe you'll get really exuberant matured into a movement us. Maybe maybe cheers guys. Thank you so go past one win torch. Eamon would have four five steps door. My Gosh cash only background check couldn't believe I'm store is conceived for. No reason is in season button now a day. You can find me baby. Nbc Them Johnny. Go and see.