Why Men Use Sex (Porn) to Avoid Pain w/ Mark Groves (023)
When I went to has expedites older all the things I was about to do, and then I went to exit there and it was like putting a marshmallow Mona big Eubank man that couldn't get a boner. And so now I'm trying to overly be masculine because I'm so glad that I don't want anyone, and I also can't get an erection because my values are now out of alignment, intimacy leads to heartbreak is what's truly happening in my subconscious is like if I connect with this woman, she's gonna crush me. I then would use alcohol to numb my value system. Eventually I learned that I do that, and then be able to have sex and man, that was the beginning of a long unhealthy relationship with intimacy. Welcome to men this way, the podcast for every man, who seeks to live his deepest purpose in life, who's committed to showing of fully and giving his unique gifts to the world because if not you, then who. I'm your host of fellow journeyman. Brian Reeves, Bryan with a Y Reeves men this way. Are you leaking sexual energy all over the place at the store at the gym at work or online? Could you be using sex or porn to avoid shame or avoid intimacy or to live up to some outdated model of man? Could you be using orgasm to self soothe because you rarely received emotional soothing as child while in this episode my guest Marc groves, and I dive into these questions and more. Mark is the founder of the popular and inspiring Instagram page create the love. Now, this is a little different than most episodes of men this way in that Mark is a repeat guest and where drilling down into a specific topic, essentially how men use sex to avoid pain, and what we can do about it. It's a subject, both Mark, and I have a lot of personal and painful experience. Because we both used women we use sex porn even orgasm to avoid a lot of underlying issues that just perpetuated, disconnect and suffering in both ourselves. And in our partners, even despite all the pleasure in good feeling that sex, and orgasm, and intimacy offer to since we both have also been on profoundly healing journeys around all of this awakening to and practicing, what it takes to create healthy relationships, not just with another person, but with ourselves and with our own full rich, sexual drives, and desires to well, we decided to record an episode specifically on this for you. It's filled with the life changing insights, and practices that we both have discovered on our respective journeys, including my experience, doing a thirty day sex, dating flirting hunting, and hoping diet a few years back, which profoundly. Shifted my relationship to sex and intimacy. And really paved the way for the exquisite relationship that I'm in today. So definitely listen to the end of this episode of men this way where we give you our best practices for learning how to use sex, not as a crutch to avoid pain. But rather as a potent fuel for creating more vitality and deep connection in your mind. And also, if you wanna share any feedback, or tell me or Mark, what this conversation inspired in you. Please Email me directly at Brian at Brian Reeves dot com. Love to hear your thoughts. All right. Let's dive Mark grows was having back on men this way. So soon love it, man. Thanks for having me back. Yeah. I'm excited for this, if you haven't already listened to the, the episode where Mark and I talk about shit, man. I kind of forgetting this moment, but it was profound talk about your journeys band funding. We talked about some really cool. That's a goal is to it. And then tell it talked about exactly. But I wanted to have you back on because and this is gonna be a little bit different than allow the episodes because after we got done, recording, as we were talking you said something you said, man, we should do. An so we have a conversation about how men use sex to avoid pain. And I thought hell yes, that is a great idea. Remember that the, and it's it's one of those subjects that I think, you know, were so socialized in culture to be sexual as men, like even if we don't feel sexual were not easily aroused. We think there's something wrong with us S right in. I think that's an interesting thing that we, we haven't really been able to the that we don't necessarily differentiate. Yeah, totally I think, you know as I look back into my pass. I think when you said that and suggested that it really spoke to me, because, man, I did a whole, I did a whole what I called my sex, dating flirting hunting in hoping diet. I remember when years ago, I followed you on your remember reading your, your up. Yeah, that's right in, because I hadn't seen it until then. How much I was used essentially using women, but not women even but like feminine energy wherever I could. Get it. Oh, yeah. Means you man to not feel well, I didn't even know what I was waiting at the time. So how many six devoid pain now, this is we have some things we definitely wanna touch on cover. But why did this really leap out at you as a subject we should explore because I did it in. I think it was it's a subject that I think I didn't know I was doing when I was doing it till I realized that the results I was getting in my life where reflective of I'd say, I really want a deeply connective relationship in hooking up with his girl, every Sunday, I remember and a friend of a friend said to just happen to be the these things were connected, but another girl had just gotten out of a relationship, and she said to our mutual friend of the one I was looking up with. She said, you know, I really wanna just hook up in find a good guy who I can trust to. Data girls like, well, you should up with Mark groves she turns to her boyfriend, who's friend of mine, Margaret was a single right? And he's like, and he's like, oh, we'll just took up with him. He's a nice guy. Well, the girl who I'm hooking up with is like, hey, I 'cause they're friends, the one she goes. Hey I heard you're the guy who Cup with if you don't wanna relationship, and I was like. Right now might two worlds collide. Well. Most people might think opportunity for threesome. Yeah. But what I realized was that. I wasn't what I said. I wanted I was what I was choosing. And my two worlds might integrity, everything that I didn't know I was I mean it'd be obviously is very obvious. Once you hear it, but at the time I thought it was just, you know, hooking up with someone on the way to the relationship I wanted, but really the energy I was putting out there was. And so I felt like I put myself on Vollers vacation, I call it. Vas vacation. I had such an addictive relationship with intimacy since I'd had sex. One is sixteen whatever's our moment data. If you're listening, fifteen or sixteen anyways, I had not had sex with someone like for longer than a period of like three months that whole time. So I was like, maybe it's time that I learn why I'm drawn to what I'm drawn to is like. In the drink down. You know, same idea. Yeah. You just said something really mazing that I wanna highlight. You said I was not what I said. I wanted. I was what I was choosing that quote that correctly. Yeah. I think so. In other words, what I was saying was incongruent with what I was actually what I was saying. I wanted was incongruent with what I was actually choosing. And I think it was reflect the my own journey the reason I did this dating what I call the sex, dating flirting hunting in hoping diet was because Likewise, I so wanted to. Rob candle. He says something really interesting about men in sex. He says, I don't actually think it's not that men are are wanting sex so much is that men actually using six to get valid Dacian o- hundred percent like I think that we all turn to in my own personal opinion through my own experience is that I turn to an unhealthy relationship to intimacy and Zack's because I very much respected my body in the sexual Joyce's. I was making when I was young till I went through heartbreak. When I went through our break, I first off didn't desire, anyone for the first time and that was crazy because I was nineteen in college, and I'd be walking down the hallway at the university in you know if it had been a week before my heartbreak I was like drawn, actually every, you know, to most women, but after my heartbreak, I wasn't in, I thought something was wrong with me, and I was like, am I gay? What's. Like what's happening here and it's not strange. I'm not drawn to someone. So does that mean I'm gay him during drawn to women right now says, I mean I'm gay. Yeah. Like there was this weird like but because my body was so hurt. There was no information for this. I mean this is twenty one years ago. Not couldn't Google this. It was not like my guy friends were, like yeah. Tell me about your extremely painful monogamous break. They were grinding not all of them, but, you know, some of them were granted chicks at the bar and hooking up. And here I was thinking relationships or the way to go. And I'm standing in the truth of my oth-. Anticipation, my values. And man about three weeks after that break-up. I did a bunch of things I'd never done before one. I made out on dancefloor with Jay that wasn't so bad in, then I tried to take. I mean I took a girl home to my parents house has stupid. For one night stands at like the devil. It was Halloween ever have a Halloween after appropriate. Yeah. Was appropriate in him. When I went to have expedite told her all the things I was about to do, and then I went to Exeter, put immerse Mona big bang, man, that couldn't get a boner. And so, then now listen to this, right. So now I'm a now I'm trying to overtly masculine, because I'm so defied that I don't love that. I don't want anyone. And I also can't get an erection because my values are now out of alignment, intimacy leads to heartbreak is what's truly happening in my subconscious is like if I connect with this woman, she's gonna crush me. How old were you at this time as nineteen nineteen while? Yeah. So then my strategy was because I had a lot of resilience fortitude, my strategy will I, I didn't get to do anything with that woman. She was like, oh, he said, all those things. Now you need like a fucking kick. Stands rena. No. I, I then would use alcohol to numb my value system. Eventually I learned that I do that. And then I'd be able to have sex. Yeah. And man, that was the beginning of a long unhealthy relationship with intimacy. Yeah. You know, I've realized in this is doing through my own therapy, the last few years, how, you know, I had great parents more or less. I mean, that, you know, they divorced four married some other people when I was ten I had four parents, just there were it was messing this. There was out Gaullism. There was, you know, weird sort of, you know, modern family dynamics all nap Neo. No beat me. Nobody put me down. I wasn't criticized. It wasn't but I also wasn't comforted. Nobody ever really comforted me, you know, no one really checked in with my emotions. How was I mean my parents put up when I was four and I lived with that for the rest of my, my life, certainly, but just growing up as a kid in noon comforted me, one of the things that I got really clear about in the last few years, was how actually sex in masturbation, especially, but sex definitely orgasm were forms of self soothing. I mean it's good feeling. So I guess, a good feeling and it's a way of not just being present with or not feeling the loneliness. No-one's comforting me, I never never would have framed it in those terms, but, you know that has been really revelatory for me realizing that making the connection between not being comforted. Again, having great parents for them. Good people, and I think men, especially, especially as we get a little older turn into teenagers. All that comes with that, you know, no one's really talking about what we're feeling. And we don't wanna talk about it because of just how we're indoctrinated in the culture around us. So of course, you know, sex orgasm pleasure in are going to be a man, you know, God, I could masturbate, like nobody's business. In those days, like, if I can ironman. And and, and. Wow. And I'll tell you in how that affected my relationships and didn't even realize it because I wouldn't let anyone soothe me, I wouldn't let a partner soothe me emotionally, not, because I didn't even know what that was like, you know, I got me, I'll do me, I've always done me since I was forever literally and figuratively and every single I will do me, if you wanna participate great, but bonus so making that connection was really really profound. You know I'm in my mid forties. Now forty four and, and, you know, I've definitely felt the edge off my sexuality a little bit still fantastic. Great driven all that of amazing partner. Greg chemistry off the charts. But a definitely feeling the edges coming off. But I wonder you know that validation in soothing. I share that with you what comes up for you. What do you see there? Man, I for sure used. I mean, sex became in a men's part validation for me. Not only the validation that what really intimacy became a cloak to the pain, I was feeling I could be the fun part guy. I've been go to my sports teams in talk about, you know, the chick, I hooked up with an I'd get celebrated. So there was valid as in there in underneath what was going on is I was fucking broken. I was so heartbroken in I didn't really tap into that probably till I was thirty five so about five years ago where I realized that I hadn't let a women love me in so long because I had sort of, like, you know, stood so true my values before that, Halloween night that fateful Halloween night. But after that, I just sort of thought, like, what's the point in standing in these principles of, of being men who really values relationship? When relationship led to the ultimate devastation I've ever experienced in my friends who are not doing that. I had friends who obviously were in relationship, and very good men. But I had a lot of friends who are hooking up. And I was like, well, they're happy. They're fine. And so became you know, as I think of like the self soothing that sex. I mean, what better award system wasn't a drug user Zo, like what better rewards to Minin orgasm in feeling loved and connected to buy a woman. Yeah. And desired because I felt like there was nothing desirable about me. I mean the woman who I love so much had lied to me and chosen another man, without telling me till she told me. So, you know, man, like you only can put the you know, as Steve Jobs. So famously said, you can connect the dots looking back. I connect those dots now to Mike holy shit. Like how many other men are doing using sex the way, I did. The I, I remember too, as you were sharing that, that through my adult life. I would you know as time we're on. Okay. So I'm having a mapping sex similarly like I didn't think this years ago similar to you. I didn't know use. But I was thinking, I'm having sex. Okay. It'll be about three months, maybe before the next part. Okay. That's not too long. I'll I'll get there. That's a pretty good ratio. It's pretty good rate. You know how to measure up all of that, and it was it was so about validation. Absolutely MS so much about being validated, even I was never the bragging to my friends type at all in definitely ill. You definitely were Dushi that. You know that's why when when I thought about just all the. The ways that I've, you know, participated in the, you know, mutually because its course, to wounded people find each other, you know, in that pain of wanting to so canal all, or whatever it is even just in relationship free, intimacy I just think was like we're like, two people masturbating each other young. You know, I think of all the connection that I've sort of like time, traveled through not really valued. When I woke up to that from that, that woman, saying that to me like. Airily. You're the guy to go up with that was in a moment, where I was wanting to change transform. It was just like one of those universal slaps to the face. You get to choose to wake up now or you get to keep hurting. Yeah. And thankfully, I chose the, the first part you know, as I was preparing for this. And I was looking okay. Let's let's come up with some statistics was my think. Okay, witless look out there. The world of research in statistics in sacks and satisfaction in men and women and all that. And here's the bottom line, it's fucking mess out there. If I mess it. Totally one hundred percent mess. I like that. That's validated to by. You know, we don't even the samples is just like women talk about, you know, I think we touched on this previously in our last podcast. But it was talking about. I just think it's a way that immature painful masculinity becomes expressed in, you know, course, NO IBM idiot to say that having sex with, you know, a number of people in having a lot of experiences wasn't fun course. And that's hard part is like that'd be like I mean, I've never done cocaine. But that'd be like all those times I did. Go gain denying that. I had a really already. Right. So I think there's a balance of like, where's your expiration within your integrity? 'cause course you can have sexual experiences that are within your integrity. Yeah. But when I think this is an inch. Interesting idea, because I don't know that there's necessarily a right answer. But when is it integrity to be expressing yourself sexually in, of course? Integrity is gonna mean different things people would you? Well, I actually, you know, I wish someone would have told me it's okay to not want to be in relationship or not being a relationship when I'm in my twenties and thirties. It's okay to just be single. Enjoy the sexual experience or the adventuring or tasting all the different flavors of life in women. I wish someone would have just said, you know what it's okay. And not from a place of you know, you should do that. Or that's, you know, man, fuck marriage to don't relationship suck not from that place. But from just it's okay, it's okay to not be ready. It's okay to when you say integrity. I mean, that's what I realized I think I was so torn a needing that validation, I stayed in relationship with women, or I would choose women or, you know. I would play at love her, once ecologist say this years ago that men will tend to play at love to get sex women will play at sex to get love and I don't know. It's black and white. I believe that, but I definitely wasn't ready to be two feet into a relationship news. I, although I said I was and I wasn't. Well, I mean, I think if I look in hindsight, a lot of my exploration was trying to figure out how I mean, a lot of my dancing around was, you know, to figure out how to not pay attention to my pain. You know, it was like a constant distraction in what better distraction than nice smelling. Beautiful woman told me. No. In I've been designed to be distracted by that course. Yeah. And so, I think it became like where does my integrity become the number one priority universes? My biology and, you know, I don't want to. It's not like I was. Ending years humping away. That's not true in all my experiences were in some form of integrity in alignment, with I was hurting myself, you know. And I think also at at some point, I just got so good at pretending everything was ok in being charismatic and funny, and all that shit. That I was like, bypassing, my feelings completely. And I know we talked about this before we started the bug as just about this ability if you're really good with language, you can actually pretend to be connected to yourself. You can fake vulnerability. Yup. And as men were not exactly socialized to be connected to our hearts were, you know, I, I think there's so many eases of evidence of that. Yeah. But yeah, I think it's fascinating because I think even open relationships can often be sort of like a rebound or drive when we've been really hurt by something doesn't make sense for us. It doesn't mean that there's a right relationship structure. But I certainly think that there is an interesting drive that we have to move towards those when we've been really hurt. You know, I said earlier that it's a mess out there as as looking at statistics. I am one of the things that really fascinating is that millennials are having less ex- than previous generations by very significant degree in all the sex research Japan is held up as cautionary tale. We don't know why, but the Japanese are having less sex than anyone on the planet, but the Lineas around the world are having less sex. Interestingly, I found that in Mexico, Nigeria, they're having the most exciting sex in the world. I don't really know what that means. The way the Mexican I get it. But, but side as reflecting on this, no one really has good answers as to why that's happening. But one of the things that occurred to me, they blame everything, you know, depending on which expert you talked to they blame surging site levels. Aiding websites pornography mobile of living at home with payers all kinds of things. But hell, you took a woman home to your parents place. So that's clearly not able that might add still talks about this. So bad devil showed up as you redress Ornes. That's what it calls her. But what I tend to think in as I just reflect on my own jam forty four I grew up without a cell phone in my pocket. You know, you'd meet you man is fucking great. I wonder I believe that so much of you'll needing that validation needing the soothing. We all need to be validated. We all need soothing, whether that comes from the outside of the inside we need it. We need to be soothed. This is a crazy world. We live in the threats all over the place and specially with the phone in your pocket. You're connected to fucking FOX in New York's times, and all this shit is your one news. Flash away on your phone. You get a text from the governments in might get new like. That's right. Or you just see a photo on Instagram. That makes reminds you of how much you don't like your own life. So man. Yeah. So I think so many sorry finish. I'm just trying to make the I wanna make the connection here because I think, you know, between avoiding pain using sex using again. I think it's I really like what rob KENDALL said about using sex to get validation, and my only agree with that. Yeah. And, you know, we can get so much validated by posting something on social media in, in just a few people like it, you know, there's validation in that there's against soothing their soothing in. We can find just watching videos, especially man with the proliferation of porn in our of my Lord, and, you know, like I think there's two parts of that, too. One is that as mail, you get status for Zack's. Right. Or the validation dumbs in the status in sort of like evolutionary psychology terms. We can't void that the highest data's mill it's like an all poly-amorous societies. A few men get all the women in, then they become war-zones, because the other men are like you can have all the women so women, even if they say they want something different. There biologically drawn ties at his mails. It's just at work is what peacocking is in the pick of murders world, like it works. If person is being driven by their Volusia second part of that, I think, too, is that at least for me sex, intimacy became a safe space to feel in a space of socially acceptable space to be vulnerable in, because I think I craved feeling myself so much in it's great that it's in the positive stimulus as you were saying, like our phones, an Instagram like all of this is just a way of distracting ourselves from ourselves because I mean, men, when's the last time that use awesome one even waiting in line at the fucking bathroom. People can't. Even take shit without looking at phone. We're Geniza that like now. I'm really starting to analyze my relationship to my phone, which I noticed can give me. Zayed's. So I'm like, okay, we're gonna renegotiate his ending. Zayed's also gets in the way of healthy enjoyable fulfilling sex. Oh man. Right. Even performance anxiety, which is, of course, new partnering Zayed is one of the number one causes of rectal this function. Well, if you look at your phone, we'll go no, go ahead. I wanna come back to. Let's not forget this performance anxiety. I wanna come back to that, or something really big in that, but keep going, I was just going to say, like you look at like in Japan they got that crazy cartoon porn shits, like regular humans on cartoon steroids in in. It's crazy because I think about, like you watch one porn pornography movie with let's say ten chicks or something. I don't even know you will likely your brain will have seen more sexual experiences with women than you've ever seen. If you were a tribe. Yeah. Not that long ago from an evolutionary perspective. Literally, like the micro is blink of an eye, your body nervous em-. Everything your dopamine gets, like hyper stimulated in, then you go to your regular relationship with missionary and cowgirl. Enure like, but, you know, I'm not let beats with a hole in the box getting a hand job, you know. There's no swiping to next. No will let stay here for a moment because I also report a well, I wanna stay important for just a second. That's a weird thing to say. But. But you'll porn fucked up my body. Big time when I got my late thirties. You know, again, I didn't grow up with a cell phone full of the global archive of porn, in my pocket lot got raising scraping for National Geographic with the did he pick exactly. I was a swipe in memo's Victoria secret yet, work for the work. Yeah. Dial up. Do not long to load big. Why are you kidding me? I'd to wait until spring to get the spring catalog of Victoria's Secret man. We didn't get that in Canada at settle for like Sears, which is like heart. All I could worked with that back, then y'all I work. What you can. But that's how easily I was stimulated because I didn't have in titties on, right? And I spent about two years, inbetween relationships number of years before miss Sylvie just spend about an hour a day watching porn, soothing myself to sleep really what it was. No big deal. You know is fine in? I noticed at the end of that after about two years, I noticed uses shovel marshmallow in piggy-bank. That's what started to happen. And also, I was prematurely Jackie leading with women in. It was ter. I've never had that experience fucking terrifying. What the hell is happening here. Can't get interested with a woman in a premature Jackie leading almost even before I get erection. Anyway, yet with porn, though, of course I could man I was solid for an hour. Could just rock out for an hour rock out with my cock out is they say, but literally watching point. I could do that, yet with a woman. I couldn't. Do that at all. It was the opposite. It was terrifying to be in. That's when I to go cold Turkey, I had to quit completely because it was his ruining sexual experiences with women. What's been your experience with that? You know I feel like I did the same thing with porn that. I would use it to sell through that started to pay attention to the trigger that would make me go down the rabbit hole of desire pay attention to now. You know, like what's trigger that causes me to have Roddick desire is usually like something on Instagram Franken homepage. 'cause I don't follow any I do not follow model. Instagram is not good for his like maxim magazine back in the day. Shift just was like so abnormal, but I used to fuck in love that magazine like hometown hotties, you know, all this shit, and why not me not used to get. I don't know how I got them. But Pinterest emails in Pinterest would sivy Dan emails of these hot, women win these outfits, like, why am I getting this? I had unsubscribe and I should because it was triggering or. Yeah. You sent me a picture, brassiere my brain right? Who ate a hold with support. I'm like. Once that, you know, in, I. I think it's so important that we learned to manage our drive that we learned not to not to manages it, minimize it. But like because you know, there's a lot of conversation in the book thinking grow rich, he talks about taking your sexual drive in transmuting it into creation in purpose. And I think, as men, the more I got into my purpose more likely with true boundaries with healthy relationships to things, my desire for unhealthy or like obsessive, sexual experiences or pornography went down the thing about not being able to get erection from looking at born, you know, I'm certain IB foolish to say that probably didn't affect what got me aroused for a bit. But I've never really had an obsessive relationship with pornography. But I think one thing that was very confusing for me as a kid is I couldn't get an erection because I was so heartbroken that that. I was like, do I have rectal this function? Am I will never be able to get a bone or again? Right. But then I did all the research on it, because then it was like, oh, if you're sleeping and waking up with owners, your Weiner works. You're just but no one says like you can't get Boehner of your heartbroken. It's like you can't get one because you know, right. You have something wrong with your vascular. Whatever, and I have a friend who's gay. And he was talking about using grinder. And he said that he would not be able to get action with men and he said something that always stuck with me. And he said, my heart is literally connected to my dick, but it's also emotionally connected in, like a great way of articulating because it was so out of a lineman for him to participate in that casual stuff. But it was so part of his in his experience, part of the cultural pressure of being gay in, so that always stuck with me, because I really realized that there's so many men that don't honor and respect that maybe they're not meant to be like that. Maybe there. Actually wired in a different way than what the cultural narrative is, which is that we are sexual veracious beings. And if you don't wanna fuck everything you're broke. And what a dangerous message to send men that makes us become overtly sexual to make up for the shame. We have that we might not be these, like animals Faulk, you know, you think about that. It's like what a danger there. We send a cultural narrative year, there's a common thing that happens when couples will come to work with me. Sometimes the last, you know, how often should we be having sex? Yeah. You know what? You know, they'll have read some statistics somewhere that healthy couple or couples are having forty two percent couples or having sex three times a week. Whatever the hell that me. Is and it's one of the things that got to be really careful about is there is no normal normal for. You is normal for you. What works for you for your particular constitution for the agreements in your relationship, that are healthy for your relationship? Yeah. Normals dangerous word. Absolutely. I mean it's so that's something that we want to be really mindful of, but not comparing ourselves to what else is happening out there. But you said something really, really important that I want to emphasize about channeling all these triggers. We live in a world full of triggers. I mean, we're so fucked up, sexually speaking, so to speak. That the world is just we're bombarded with stuff that isn't helpful. It's drawing energy trying to sell us shit by using billboards of attractive, women and commercials of hot, women drinking, beards guest, by beer, stuff like this featuring Michelob, I better drink, low about meter pinchers emails, Instagram models. Do all of that everywhere and. And yet. If I'm gonna be a relationship with my woman, and I absolutely want to be in relationship with this woman. I wanna have a thriving beautiful dynamic fulfilling relationship. If my energy is leaking all over the place in, if I'm allowing energy to be drawn constantly down those rabbit holes. And it can, you know, one Pinterest Email could send the on our lying Instagram targeted? I'm fucked. You know, like we're never going to get rid of all those triggers just gonna be driving on the street and you're gonna see them. And that's okay this, but I think this is the key is being mindful about what is serving our relationship. I think so show media is a really dangerous place because it's so easy to get this pseudo. Connections, pseudo ballot from someone. We don't know from just some comments on a photo in a little flirtatiousness back when I was singled, having those little or tastes MoMA. All right. Long it was wonderful. You know, obviously, since I've been with Sylvie, man, not, not once that happened in wouldn't allow it for fucking second. Like I've aim aren't even put myself in situations goes as you said, a, my respect for myself and my integrity at what that means because I know for me, that's the most is alignment with my value system when as out of it, it hurts, like ship when state in I'm canal. Acted truthful honest in its honoring and respecting the connection, which is ink is the most connection in the world is with my partner in, you know, I love what you're saying about that as like respect. Yeah. That's spilling part. That's so important is like burying are you being responsive? And I think it's as you said, it's like a normal biological thing to get the trigger into totally respond triggers in and to start collecting your energy back. You know putting it back in your pocket. Keeping it absolutely mad. I'm sure you hear this two minutes, so many women will write to me or comment in about their partner who's they won't use this word, but whose energy is leaky. They're commenting on other women's photos, or new stand men who follow like fucking porn stars and models. Like I mean, I know a lot of women who follow female models, which that's more about to you. But if your man in your fallen bunch of shakes that innately disrupt, the trust in baseline of your relationship cleaner, Shiva. Yeah. You want your woman doing that. No. You don't. Or if you're a man with man like same thing. Stop it. Stop look at why you need to distract yourself and do that shit like go to the source. Yeah. And I think that's where we're kinda come into head so speak with this dominator, that's inevitable in this. He can't help yourself. You know, the where because really is about about cleaning bar, energy, and again, like any man love the female form can appreciate the beauty of a woman in I am, though, for it other at nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But if we are going to be in relationship, this ties back to what you said earlier, and I mess it up every time but I'm not what I'm saying. I want I am. What with the state again man, it was brilliant, how you said it of that. What I say want is not what I'm choosing. That's right. What I say. One is not. That's exactly. And so many of and I've done this in the past, certainly. But we're acting in ways that are actually they are violating to our relationship. They are violating the person. We're with our own elves thrown to our own shoots. Exactly our own integrity because we're either you know, there's no such thing as ninety nine percent committed all in all not. I'm pretty honest. Night has right. We are either in or not. You know, in it's easy for us. Men to say were to feed in not actually be too faded to a relationship with. Somebody comes out in those little, spilling things that we do that, like on like stop following anyone as a threat to your relationship participating in those conversations because you're right. They're all just ways of self sabotage their ways of limiting relationship death. They're all going to keep it very strategically from subconscious level. They're going to keep us from going deeper with our partner or in any relationship preventing time. I mean the research shows that even if your phone is upside down on table. You're less vulnerable in conversations. No in. Yeah. And that's just because there's this draw, maybe there's more there than there is year. Yeah, but man go to a restaurant watch. Like I think it's so fascinating because I've certainly been guilty of that my past, and this isn't about being tying. Or being like we're in integrity near. And it's like no man, we all dance in out of alignment, we all dance, but eventually, you have to decide what is like the center of huge of who you wanna be. Yeah. It is like the core, you're gonna make little mistakes in there. But you're gonna crack them. But like as a core being what are your principles in your value? And are you gonna live by them? Yeah. Mastered saying mcquarry are appearing as though in, in dancing around all that stuff. And eventually really great women called my ass out. Yeah. Yeah. And men gray men to like your full shit. And a my guy am, yes I am. I didn't wanna know because I'm sure this is valid for so many little, how did you work through the pornography affect on your action, that was really? Yeah. No. 'cause I'm sure well, plenty people I do. Yes. Well, I just I quit cold Turkey. I mean I just stopped from one day to the next because it just there was an a specific. Couple experiences that happened to maybe over the course of a few weeks with different women that it was just my body is essentially broken when it comes to women now, again, so to speak. And I just it was terrifying. How scared I hit a bottom. What was well the bottom was as I said, I couldn't get erection certainly couldn't maintain it end. I prematurely Jackie lated before pretty much before, even touched me, a never had those experiences have always had very very, you know, very sort of healthy just for me. Just it works. My body, just worked grades. So it was like the contrast was overwhelming. And I think this is a challenge, because a lot of especially younger men, they don't have that contrast that I had 'cause I grope in game with end smartphone porn. So I had the contrast in so I just stopped, and you know man, it took me about a year and a half, I would say for. My body to recover. In fact, you know talk about like morning would I couldn't even while when that was happening? I lost my morning erections all of that. And it was like when I started getting morning would again, maybe a year later, did it like, oh, MS like is, like rescuing an exotic plant thing shinned is. Which is how your body gets so conditioned that it's like a detox, you need a little you talks. And I felt it, you know, even the beginning of relationship with Sylvie. I could still feel the effects, and it was probably eighteen months or so after, you know, I meant Sylvie maybe eighteen months or so after I stopped year to eighteen months after and I could still feel the like it just my body wasn't wasn't responding in in the way that it had. It was much better. And you know, now three years in and men about, I'm forty I'm older than I was forty four when this was happening. I was, you know, thirty nine forty I guess thirty eight thirty nine and my body stronger now than when it was at that time, and it was, you know, there's been moments where have used porn sporadically in the years since but, you know, no more than once a month or even in usually once a year. It's like it happens. Like you said earlier, I'm not perfect. I'm not a Saint haven't eliminate. Fid every single leaky. Yes. Insured by being. I just don't get their emails. But if I the pops off shit there. You know, I'm on Instagram all that stuff's there. But I'm definitely more when I feel that sort of my energy shifting away from what would serve relationship. I bring it back in alignment, because I know it matters. And I know again, this won't really men to hear this and women to women are gonna be listening to this, and I want you to understand your right. Are leaky behavior matters. It does matter. And I don't put things in terms of. Right and wrong. There's just what serves what doesn't you could say woman would serve under doesn't what honors and what doesn't exactly it's not right. Or wrong. Is that wrong too? And this is where a lot of men and women. We come off the things off the rails, 'cause she said, you know, women will commonly say, never as many times throughout my life. You know what women would put up with that. No woman would put up with that woman. Well, you know what? You there's a woman out there who would put over that. Yes, through there are plenty out there, putting up with that just like there's plenty of men putting up with women who have leaky energy. Holy so the conversation really is does this serve your relationship, or does it not? And what are you waiting, you know, like I think, for me that was the big part is, like, what is it distracting you from that you're frayed will happen with your partner because I think they're all these ways of sabotaging where we up limited ourselves. So we upper limit ourselves right before we've been extremely devastated. And for me what I actually started to see was that my desire for intimacy in with anyone I cared about get performance anxiety. And I actually started to use that, as I know that all be ready to have sex when it's time as opposed to using this Pacific, you know, I would use x as a way of figuring out if I had a connection rather than establishing that we have connection than having rag. So it was about going back to what I always knew to be true when I was young, which was respecting myself respecting my body respecting my partner, but really holding intimacy as sacred thing, which, again, for people wanting to have it outside of monogamous long-term relationship. That's fine. Just hold it in sacred container. That's right. Let it be what it is. Which is in that's going to question of integrity, just it's like I'm not in relationship, and that's a whole, that's a whole other rabbit hole. Because I personally in my general experience in my experience. I generally have found that women unless they're really coming out of a break up coming out of a painful experience, and they're really not wanting a lasting connection in general women really aren't casual sex aren't non committal, Don. They are though pretend they are, but it doesn't really work on women and totally agree. 'cause it's a think do things at hand there. One is evolutionary. They need a partner in order, the consequences of, of sex are much higher for women. Yeah. In terms of child second part, there is that men women process oxytocin differently so for a man oxytocin because of its interaction, this is what is thought its interaction with testosterone. Jordan's its half-life oxygen women lasts about two three weeks. So they're gonna catch some feelings but it won't last as long. I think that's a it's just an important thing to, you know, minder oxytocin mind, but also don't miss represent what you want, you know, like that happens all time for men and women Zang, they wanna relationship or don't, but they really do want the other thing. And it happens literally. Yeah, let's circle back to performance because there's a really important thing here. You know is one of the stories against validation pleasing the woman making her come making your have an orgasm. It's so outcome oriented in what I performance as yet, so perform based on what I don't know years ago, kinda got clear about this, how actually a lot of men not done this, too. But we will will do all these things to try to make her have experienced because it makes us look good. It's really not about her at all totally, but making our selves look like running, a DJ turntable. Yeah. Get it. And I think, you know, I just wanted to bring that up 'cause we talked about this word performance. Again, there's so much of this sort of old masculine programming. We have to look good. We have to perform, well, you get the job done, cocker notches in the bed post on stuff notch, Nevada. That's funny. I do totally remember that socialization the belts the get. That's right. That's right. And none of that has to do with her. She's just a instrument for our own status, building, data's vase isn't crazy. Yeah. Hand on. Well, I wanted to point that out because, look, of course, we wanna satisfy partner, it's healthy, but different to please, your partner so that you look, good, or at least don't look bad versus pleasing her because it's pleasing to you to see her pleased yet. I totally there. You know that it comes from, as sincere authentic place, rather than it being perform. Base. I mean, there's so many conflicting pieces of socialization in this. I mean there's a book written for men called. She comes first, which is really I think, Iran that it's like we wanted to be bowed. Both experiences men tend to be very outcome based as you're saying, Mike, did you come? Did you ask that question all time still due to check in, you know, like the? Like I'm great was avid, what's happened over here. But I think what's also like Emily Agasi in her book. Come as you are, is a really great book written for women. But I think it's great for men and women in, she talks about how we both have spontaneous desire, like I saw abreast, I wanna have sex or haven't erection have X men's desires often connected to whether they have erection are not in women's is tends to be responsive desire. So you took the garbage out. I wouldn't mind humping you. We started kissing. You know, so they're spontaneous responsive higher in men tend to be more spontaneous. Women tend to be more responsive. But because we've created these gender spaces where we are like women who desire sex are slutty, or overtly, sexual imen- who don't desire sex broken, but some men have responsive desire like you cared for me. You took care of me start massaging my back now. I'm open to it. And I think it's so important like what you're saying about the performance base is actually just educating ourselves on how body words would is sexual asking lots of questions of your partner. Like I think how we perform in the bedroom is very similar to our willingness to go deep, God, there's so many buns, our willingness to go deep emotionally, too. So I think we can either find mastery in sex in. That's his gave from mastery of like vulnerability. But the other side of it is like asking our partner does that feel good. What feels right how fashion I go? It's like those questions require the possible chance that we don't know what we're fucking doing. That's right. Yeah. I think it was crazy is like the first time I had sex. I was supposed to know what I was doing. I never had so many things happened in the exact same time, like two breasts of face lips kissing in and out, yet, there's a condom work is there's a but here I can hold about like this. Things happening. Jackson time, they, we're not even good at multitasking outside of bedroom. Like high gonna do that with all. Hochman in on top of that against speak other everywhere on very on top of that. Many women's bodies. They're changing constantly, you know, what worked today won't work tomorrow. There's the mystery. You know, if we think we know what's going to work, and we do that in we, you know, it's like it's just a recipe for frustration for everybody. So you said that, like the willingness to not know like if we put our mail ego side or ego female, too. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And just, you know, one of the things that again, I mean, the sort of switch in my mind years ago when I kinda realized that just getting to orgasm is not really a good reason to do sex. I mean, unless you just want to have a baby, or just again, you need soothing. Sure, but love making is orgasm independent. Good love. Making is not about getting to orgasm. Yeah. Is all. And so I wanted to introduce that to, again, men and women that are listening that making orgasm the point of Sachs is almost certainly recipe for disatisfaction at least over the long term. Yeah. Like it's not about the destination. It's about. The journeys about the road trip. It's not about getting to the place, although get into the places great. It's great. And don't let that being excused for hey, you know, I came you'll need to come because that's not the point. You know, like all what I'm saying is that when we de emphasize the outcome, you know, in again, not the decibel, but the emphasizing even as a man, like I don't have to come everytime. We have Sachs or retirements and tells I won't in. That's fine. It's just totally perfectly fine. In fact, I often practice intentionally, not having an orgasm I gotta do that. I'm like none. It's ever. It's really, really amazing. Because what I noticed again, I'm forty four. So my body's a little, a minute particular age. But it actually it can maintain attraction that force, again is a hood, probably a whole other podcasts comprehension, but, but there's so much energy. There's so much resource would arises in the bodies of in, in terms of, in the sexual experience, that wa- man that can be fuel for my day. If I don't orgasm in the morning for chance mutation that whole mine yard. Absolutely. What can also then it can enhance the juicy nece in our relationship because that desire wasn't so called satisfied in the moment of orgasm. So we're kind of left with this sizzling, sparking arc of Poletti between us through the day that man to be so enlivening and trying to give you know, without wanting something in return, you know, like just pleasing your partner, and then, like, drop in the Mike. Oh, you're good. Go in like that. I think is it creates more desire, more tension because it also totally disrupts the wiring of females experience or a male's exerience of their life because the whole time. It's always been about like well just finished. Now, I've got to do this in it starts to give from this unconditional space, and as I was in before it's going to, like, what happens in the bedroom. So indicative of what happens in so many other places in like, are you good at expressing what you need are you good to being curious about your partner? Are you at giving without needing something in return? All of it is such a metaphor because how you do that as you're going to do everything in. I think when you take that time to be patient into, as lots of questions is the same as like sitting across from your partner, and they tell you that you didn't do that thing, well, or you were reactive defensive instead of getting more defensive or shutting down, which is so typical of us a relieving or doing liking picture on Instagram using fucking distraction. We just say tell me more about what that's like, like must be hard. How could I be better? I mean it's the exact same thing as being down there with her. Hands on your ears using you like joystick. You know, exact same thing is just that your sex will be far more connective, when your partner male or female feel safe in your emotional experiences. Yeah. You know, like set the stage to light a candle. You know, you gotta you put on some Cardi B, depending. You wanna get down. I have the playlist called love potion, number nine so love potion. Number nine Kamasiyah the playlist and I got a rock version in our in Beaverton, you know, that are in beaver Jains gotta have like jam. Odor. Okay. I'm even going farther back Olskoye square light draws or something like Luther exactly men, the art. Let's bring this home, bring them if thing I'm aware we haven't talked about it. Shame who one thing that I'm I just wanna say about that is when I was a kid. I remember I had a choice to make to be there. Good boy, or a bad boy, in bad, boys were the ones that just wanted to get girls pants. Good boys. Clearly didn't want to do that in chose to be a good boy for whatever reason I dunno. Sympathy, parents divorce. Nobody comforting me so I need, you know, gosh man to survive, I need to be liked. I thought I'd prove that I was different than other men. That was good boy, nice guy if the boy nice guy a nice end. So I totally disconnected from my sexual drive in many ways, still so alive. And in just just masturbate it out constantly, but I was so ashamed of just. I see this come up in relationships a lot, where we meant still live women to for sure. But, you know, this is really conversation. More for men were talking about, we're men. So, but men were still so shamed by having sex drive by wanting to have sex and man, the damage in the again, it finds its way, usually finds its way into porn. Yeah. Another, I think we have many cross cultural religious things that sort of mishmash or have sex, you know, as like idea, cultural beliefs, sex that creates manifestation, you know, who grew up in a family, and, or practice religion that in any way James sex in any way James desire, which most religions do all in their in their main interruptions, but they're obviously beautiful wonderful amazing. Sex of the different sects of religions with a religion that are beautiful communicate nice messaging, but the majority of the my grew up Catholic. So that's as giant, there's a lot of shame in that church. That's a whole other podcast. But what's fascinating is if your religion or your family or cultures -ociety in any way shame sex and sexuality in your human being in you have desire, which you do a part of you will feel bad apart of you will feel shame for just existing. And so you have to start to pick apart those parts those like turn towards them. You know, especially of our religions taught us that being gay is bad or being, you know, like any of those things. And we are. Then we're going to hold shame wherever we hold our actual true. Thank identity. And then we start to express sexuality in Z Crecy, which comes out in pornography in different weird fetish is not to say that there's not Ray fetishes, don't get me wrong social media stalking inappropriate social media talking unless there's a meeting. If you don't get caught then it's good stocking. The just getting. That's a bad. Yeah. And so being able to recognize that they manifest an express in unhealthy ways when we have shamed connected to them, which I think most of us, at least have some form of shame connected to sex and sexuality that we have to navigate and bring out into the open. Because if you wanna he'll shame you have to give to bring it out, you moving out of secrecy outta the tidy little Bach. That is the corner. That's mel's like boop. So good. There's a good segue to talk about. I don't know if solutions is the right word, but, but okay so we started this conversation about men and using sex to avoid pain, in how really what we're selling how around cly creates so much pain, actually both ourselves leisure like you know, that's why confusing pleasurable you like come as you're hurting. Yeah. And as often hurting your partner to maybe not physically, but emotionally. Yeah. Many cases. So, so let's just talk. About in your experience, I'll share mine as well. But like where do we go from how do we do this? How do we what do we encourage men what Bernard experiences in waking from this not doing that anymore? Women interested to hear yours for me. I know it worked for me in the first part was actually completely going on what I call version Gatien, but it was actually disconnecting from intimacy. So I could recreate my relationship to intimacy in a healthy way I could design it. So that was the first part is I, I went in I made the commitment that I would not be intimate with anyone till I felt emotionally connected to them in. It was the next logical step verse time, it went nine months in the next time I went a year in this was when I was thirty five and thirty six something like that somewhere around there in those mid thirty range. So that was the first part, the other part was starting to look at how I used intimacy as a ways of escape, I started to look at. How is actually afraid to let some? Unloved means. So I use these micro moments of intimacy. I mean I was in a five year relationship in the interim another year relationship from might experience in nineteen to the time. I was doing this detox was in a five year, relationship, one in a couple of one year, relationships and of Zia never really let, we had great intimacy but a never let myself go deeper. There was always limits Bill to what I would allow, and that was in actually letting someone love me actually letting myself, let go. I didn't know this was in the way. So I think it's really about just starting to explore your matrix your experience of for any man listening to this, none of this bible. None of this gospel is just say, like a Magai, who had an unhealthy relationship to intimacy and sex. I wanted to be programmed like what I thought other men were programmed like wanted to be able to just have casual sex and just not care. But I cared deeply in I had to use. Alcohol to numb that depth of feeling. So I think that's part of that is just like get curious start to move towards teachers that resonated, Hugh, listen. I've listened to so many of the episodes of Brian's podcast in each one in the teachers giving me so many nuggets about connection, intimacy and relationship in Saxo. What a great place to begin. Join men's groups all those things. Yeah. 'cause mental call your ass out. Good woman will call your out, but men who are in integrity will be much more certain about Jenny. Not just drinking buddies your football watching buddies, which would love those guys. But those aren't guys, those aren't the guys that are gonna hold you accountable that are gonna just call you out in ways that serve you. Exactly. Could look at you respect. Yeah. Or about, you know very similar. I you know, I did that dating sex diet called the Sexto, but it wasn't about sex. It was about using feminine energy to feel better about myself, and I stopped. I just I. One on a thirty day complete fast. I wasn't going to what that meant was. I wasn't going to linger in the produce department, the verse restore when, you know, some cute grant department, holding bananas are funneling some vegetable that I wouldn't have any idea what to do with in the kitchen. But just in the hopes that this woman would notice me, I was gonna cut all that out. You know, after yoga class, I wasn't gonna linger, the back of the room, you know, hoping to talk to somebody if you are single in integrity, both great places. Exactly. Well, but it was so leaky for me. It was so coming from such a desperate kinda hungry. In outta empty. I was trying to fill my emptiness is really what it was about. And in that thirty day men and also you like twenty four hours in I was terrified I was scared. You'll people would write to me say when I was doing this in specially women, they say, all thirty days with no sex cheese. What's wrong with you guys? Try year tried to years like this was not just about sex. It was about using feminine energy and all the forms that I was just in the moment. Suth feel better about myself or it was so leaky. It was so a and so I that you did that, by the way that you didn't just in the context of relationship insects that it was about. Because I never thought of it that way till I read when you were doing it. Yeah. What a cool distinction. Yeah. 'cause it was also about, like not calling even just female friends, you know, to hang out, spend time with female friends, because all around woman, even that, you know, cutting all of that out at. That's why called it. The hunting and hoping diet, as well hoping it was a on hoping, there's no cutting out hope that some women will complete me in experience in, by the way. If you're listening, if you wanna do that actually have a thirty day free Email sequence die. That'll that'll take you on that diet. I'll put it in the show notes link. Brian raised dot com slash dating diet. There's a way to try to started boys. Yes, men. In admit that was so powerful about that is I had to just be with my experience. Like, what you said, I get curious and just be with what was coming up for me. So let's be sorry man. It's all over though. I can't help her about. We become twelve win new. And I'll tell you man. It was one of the most transformative months of my life because again, I was being with my loneliness. Finally remember I remember maybe about a weekend or so I'm living in California. I grew up on the east coast. Family scattered around the country. And about a weekend again I'm riding my bicycle alone on Venice. Boardwalk, and there's the rules, I can't just call and have a lot of female friends. I can't call female friends who've made me feel better about myself. I can't flirt with some girl or talk like that. No cutting at all out in so Hans riding the bicycle on a beautiful sonny's was in August that I did. This was gorgeous day fem. Families are out lovers the hardest. I'm of year to do this. I love that. You did this. If you did in like December in Canada. You be fine. It'd be it'd be like no gel in any month with anyone everyone's covered in. No. It was everywhere. Yeah, you're in the epi center of actually. Yeah. And I remember feeling so lonely, but I felt my loneliness in a way that I hadn't felt it before because while I was distracting myself with all the leaky energy and a member in that moment, remember tournament bicycle around in just realizing God, I miss my family amiss my friends, miss people in, I started to in that moment started to actually reach out and create connections with friends in my family. In a way that I hadn't in years, because I, I let myself just below only instead of you know, porn it away or dates, it's away or you know, Tinder it away, whatever in. Here's another interesting thing that happened about two weeks into that experiment. Again, you can read all about this on my website is other stories in funny, things that happened in incites, but about two weeks into it again. Because I was just being with what was happening from me. Like you said being curious and just open feeling everything that was there, which was really uncomfortable. And frightening, if I but as I felt it and I started to allow even allow my sexuality to just be there. I remember going into the whole foods in Venice beach. If you've never been to the whole foods in Venice beach. It is like it's like a casting call for the most beautiful people in the planning been air. Won- feels I might say man immediate is just stocked full, the pretender gorgeous people men, women children dogs, everyone, there is a model they've every dog has their own Instagram account so funny, that whole foods, every some two weeks into this and just feeling everything and not putting it on someone else to do something about it. You know, not making someone else responsible woman responsible for or port, you know, something to get it out of me. Get it outta me in remember, walk through that whole foods in. I'm on a mission. I'm hearing the whole foods lingering loitering flirting or or checking out just gonna get my vegetables in my, you know, in my pot roast than a fucking outta here in Mark. I was so alive, my body. I remember I felt like I was walking through the whole foods. Like I was a giant cock. I remember reading this. I wanted to just fuck the world want every man woman child metaphorically. Don't take that literally, but I just was like my energy felt so Alicia alive in penetrating that just oh my God. It was so invigorate that, like staying alive was playing on. The whole. Like walking that. Oh, dude, I had totally destroyed on John Travolta. That maybe. And man, never forget, as long as live, because it was I spent a few weeks is being with my experience, feeling everything that I was feeling not hiding anymore. Not leaking it out. Not just get it out of me. And it was incredibly invigorating, and that was sort of what's on the other side in my experience of what I felt one of the things that was on the other side of not using sex to avoid pain. Yeah. Or using them in energy in any way to avoid pain. What was on the other side of that is I had to go through some pretty terrifying. Moments of what am I gonna do who's going to a Malone here? All fucked got him in a die as got through that. Oh, wow. The awakening in my body and my mind and my spirit and my sexual was just it was grading. Yeah, I definitely started to. I went through a very hard time where it was like a drug. I wanted to text like girl at a connection with or like a something that I knew wasn't it? And so I remember being like you can't you can't like. This isn't serving your greater engine. Are you what you choose? And I would constantly ask myself that are you what you choose. Are you what you choose is this? You want to be in. That would be the guiding thing that I made my integrity, more important than my biology is the frame. But as you said, I sat through I was like a feeding and I finally rejoined the nineteen year old version of me that I left at the house when I got heartbroken. I finally sat through that heartbreak finally felt that cried while and reasons how many years later was a fuck man v sixteen. Wow. You know, in, in even Mauri vi- access to probably two years ago. But yeah, I never given Nineteen-year-old me permission to be so sad heartbreak. 'cause I had somehow constructed this idea that that's not normal for a man, you know, but even secretly, obviously listening to, like boys to men into the road. Die. Glove dance on speaker that would make everything he mainly better. But it wasn't God. You know, ignorance is bliss. That's drew, I get that statement. But I also of responsibility that awareness brings. You know, because nothing can never have it in my life that is in doubt of my choosing. Now in this harmful way to feel even like if a woman walks out of my life. If my Barner left me tomorrow, she doesn't take me with her, but I was codependent than I didn't know like my relationship was clearly, my life. Because when I lost her, I felt like I lost everything and what a beautiful journey of experienced annot that everything for all of us has happened up until this moment, teach us wisdom, and pain and shame in as what it's like turned towards it. You're like Yoda waiting to happen. You don't need some other Yoda us need to listen to yourself, like foggy, you know, there's so many brilliant wise, emotionally, deep men are not allowing themselves access to that in, you said, turn towards face it feeless hotel issues. And if you can't hold it, yet, get a group amendable that with you a woman will be able to hold it because that's what women do. Get a group of men to hold it to change your story. About men to see what's possible. Alesi Philip says his idea of like be around people who are the way you want to be. She calls them expanders, which I think we all think like, you know, the closes people in your life. Are they do is they neurologically give you an idea of hope, which I think, is a really cool, like Lucy, the model of what you wanna be in? It's already there. So you will naturally damp to become. Beautiful male. I think we've said is, yeah, I feel like I just sat through my therapy of myself I was. And you I got to know a lot more value. I've really enjoyed your story and I mean, we've known each other, I think, but seven years now. Yeah, man, I love having now listened to the verbal expressions of what I was reading when you're. So thanks, awesome. Brother will, thank you so much for suggesting this in for coming back on. We'll do this again when come up with some more topics. This is really a fun Evelyn of this cast. So. Here. Think about this because I think there's other subjects, obviously we'd love to talk about. But if people don't want us to talk about it, they just want. That's great. But I'm super excited with people think. Yeah. All right. So good to have you. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks again, to Mark groves fine. Mark at Mark grows dot TV and at create the love on Instagram he's putting out some really great content. So definitely follow him on Instagram, all links books resources anything, you heard mentioned here will be in the show notes at Brian Reeves dot com slash men, this way podcast. And if you're interested in doing the thirty day challenge, or just do a for couple days, or a couple of hours, the sex, dating flirting hunting and hoping diet, you can find that at Brian Reeves dot com slash dating diet, Oregon, it'll all be there in the show notes, if you know someone who needs to hear this, please, share this episode with them now. And finally, please take a moment to leave a review of men this way on your podcast app. Your words really do make a difference and don't forget to subscribe yourself. While you're at it. I'm your thriving life and relationship coach. Brian Reeves, Bryan with a Y Reeves until soon. Keep your head up your breath relaxed, and your thoughts. Inspire.