Bonus Episode - Creating the Sound of the Bank Robber Diaries
From Western sound and a studios. This is the score. The bank robber diaries. I'm Bene- Der and hope you're doing okay. During these times we've been trying to roll out some bonus episodes for you to entertain you. Give you some stuff to do well. You're hunker down wherever you happen to be. We had in the first episode an interview with Piper Kerman. The author of Orange is the new black. Joe Loya was a huge influence on her issue is getting ready to read her book which then turned into the hit. Netflix. Tv Show and then in the last episode. We had Richard Rodriguez who was a huge influence on Joe when he was in prison today. We're GONNA switch it up a little bit and we're not going to talk the story necessarily but we are. GonNa talk a lot about the podcast and kind of what made the podcast what it was and by that. I mean we're going to talk specifically about the music and sound design. That went into here Western remake shows. We think a lot about how they sound about. What kind of music? How to use music to use other sound effects to emphasize storytelling and the person who really thinks the most deeply about this and was so instrumental in creating the sound of bank robber. Diaries is Dan the on one of the producers on staff so. Dan Is joining me now on here. Dan How are you? Hi Ben. I'm okay. How are you normally review recording this in our studio at work that? I he's sitting here in my home studio. I'm going to put air quotes around my home studio because it's really just kind of like this empty room that I'm sitting in recording. Dan is not too far away just as a mile or two in his own home studio which is comprised of several blankets and Kia lamp which is holding the microphone up. Luckily you can't see this. That's the thing that you should be happy about that. You can't see the disaster. That is my studio. Most most people are so used to being zoomed now in seeing the atmosphere is that people live in as opposed to what they work in. But we're hearing podcast so he can just describe whatever we want. I should say I'm in my home studio. Which is a million cost. A million dollars. I have some renaissance paintings originals on the walls. It's really just a lovely place to make. Podcast Dan what is your studio. Look like My studio looks exactly as I just described it but in the next room there's a hundred people Adoring fans staying very very for this recording. But they're they're over there. Yeah anyway I wanted to just kind of get into this because music and sound design was so crucial to telling Joe Story To start we could start by looking at one of the scenes that you put together and I know normally you would start with the first thing in the podcast and say like hey this is you know us doing the very first thing. Setting the tone but I wanted to just focus instead on scene. That came later in the show Because I feel like it's kind of a pit of misers more with what you are trying to do and what we were trying to accomplish here so this is a scene from episode six. Which is the episode where Joe Stabs? His Dad and this is actually the scene where Joe has stabbed his dad. He's run away. He's gone to his aunt's house. The police have come. Give this a quickness. Joe What happened next in COMP. Dcom they take us and I'm home in the police station. I'm sitting there like there's a movie where Kevin Spacey. Kaiser says as usual suspects usual suspects. I'm like one of those cool last loot usual suspects or I'm just saying I got almost picture. My knees my legs crossing from sitting there. Smoking a cigarette casual and cool. Because I'm not wanting a cigarette many laser and cross but I am so pumped from what happened and feeling of power of that when you kill somebody in from moment. I thought my dad was dead. I killed him. That was a different power when you do that. And you talk to you in prison. Talk to people kill people and I had friends who would say you know the only thing stopping that man for me dead right now. We know what one would say my decision and to be a man who that's true to like you know the only thing that I'm like sitting here looking and say you have no clue but the reason your lives because right now I choose not kill you. That's a powerful way to move the world from moment I feel that. Oh Man. I'm the Kinda Guy who announced. Just say you. You're done you. I'll let you live longer you you're done. You know that kind of thing and then they take me to interrogate me. Police officer wants here my story and as I started telling them my story thinking that I'm telling him how I was abused. He tried to hurt us and south defense and then he starts asking me questions very quickly. I start realizing from the kinds of questions asked me like. Why didn't you run away? Why didn't you call anyone so you got the knife and you waited in bed? You waited on your bed within under the pillow hiding and I realize he's painted a picture of me of lane and wait portrait. He's pain is had unions like you didn't have to stab them. You could've called us and he's painted. This is attempted murder and I realized sitting there. I'm smart enough to kind of get the impression that you probably beat the fuck out of your kid and you don't want you don't like me. You like what I represent as we take shit from people like you and your backing. My Dad's play. I just told you what he did and he he's not looking at me like I'm going to use kid who tried to defend himself from his father who came back around to but one win. I'm senior tons story by kill. My I felt like King Kong. I was like maybe David. Jeff fucking took Goliath right like I. I'm a Badass. Like I can start looking at this. Complex your fucking piece of Shit for back you. My Dad's play. I'm starting to like recognize this. Maybe starting at the beginning of like Oh your authority figure fuck you all your thirty figure could give each other cover to do shit like this to us. Fuck you I do remember resenting the fuck out that guy very fast so you're sitting the police station. You thought that you killed your dad. What are you feeling towards him? In this moment. Some point in that in the precinct I learned that he was alive when they went there. He wasn't there. He's not dead on the floor so we do learn that I do learn that eventually and the adrenaline all away and all of a sudden my fucking arms and rib hurts debris because if you've ever had fractured ribs you know she she around get swollen and then your lungs are pushing up against its hargreave. I start having problems and I explained that I'm having problems so the doctor the hospital and they get the hostile mentally. Find out all the things about me maybe concussions. Fractions bruises and all. I'm a mess on. I've been abused and it's no longer attempted. Murder clearly itself defense going back into that and just remembering that moment from the shower or just such an important moment in the story and there's so much going on with the sound design From the very beginning where. We're hearing the sirens the music the Kind of cacophony of what must be going on in his head to the to the very end Where he's kind of gone through this trial of this guy not believing him and it's clear that He's he's telling the truth. I mean I don't even know like how you this as a sound designer like what are you. What are you thinking. What when you get when you're looking at a scene like this when you're thinking about Joe Story. What sort of like the Big Picture? Big Picture and then kind of drill down on a few different things. I think to start everything you need to answer the question of. What the Hell Are you doing? And why there's something to the ear when you're making arbitrary decisions like a listener is hearing a composer making random decisions or decisions. That are just based around well. It sounds cool I think that feels like you're not really treating a story so you have to start from a decision. That actually is deliberate in the first act of this show which for me was really the first six episodes. I knew that in those first six episodes I wanted the music and sound design to be treating joe as though he is very much the hero of the story and getting the audience as close as possible to experiencing these scenarios really through Joe's eyes and then later on in the series. We can start questioning him. We can start rolling back but at this moment you are Joe Loya. You're right there with him and I just tried to. I tried to think about the fact that when you're going through a traumatic episode or the most heightened moments of your life. I think you find that you remember odd details like weird things will will linger that don't necessarily have to do with the wider trauma so a lot of the sound design. There is like an obvious siren in there but I also had There's this little electrical like kind of something from a an ultra violet light. That's kind of hissing and popping route. It and I just imagined that he's in this interrogation room being kind of dragged to this interrogation room and he's constantly hearing this hissing and popping of a light while he's being interrogated and while he's being pressured the sonic equivalent of like one of those bare lightbulbs. Kind of hanging like the buzz of a fluorescent maters and it's really kind of agitating to the ear as I imagine that it adds to the tension I also wanted like buried in the track. I wanted the sound of police officers in the next room. They're in there too. But I like the idea that they're joking around I remember being a police station earlier in my life and I remember that happening and it was just very odd that we were having this very intense conversation but in the next room I heard people laughing as though this intensity had nothing to do with you. Know the didn't matter like they were just having fun there around the water cooler joking around and I remember hearing those elements as I was listening to it. you know as the final mix and thinking like it was very unnerving to me listening to it. You know it was. It was sort of like Counter to what the mood of the room was but in a way that felt almost like imposing right. Exactly like I mean. What's what's scarier to you. Is You know like a police officer. Who's really really attempting to intimidate you. I I would find it more frightening. If he's just has a band of people in the next room were laughing. That's scarier to me than if there's talking about you just don't care about your your nothing and whether or not you really did this as a relevant then in terms of the music. The main thing that happened in the scene for me is this is where Joe discovers that he has the power to in my opinion rob banks down the line. This is when he discovered. I just stabbed my father. I have this thing inside of me that I can do that. Very very few people can do So I thought a lot about Joe's physicality and Joe's inner life. When I was writing the music like what it is. Hartfield like stomach like his pulse. There's a sound in there that I love. Which is also a sound. That's probably unnerving you tried to imagine. How do I make a sound? That sounds like nausea and like this bubbling rage and wrote this rage theme that we used in the trailer and we use it throughout the show which is kind of like this sort of cauldron of like bubbling lava and sounds spread I thought since this is the origin of his rage. I'll grab a piece of that and it sort of sounds like a stomach kind of tightening and getting nervous and stressed and it just repeats and repeats and repeats. Literally three minutes of this sequence. That sound is running and getting gradually louder in the mix and to me. That's like the the beginning of his rage and it also increases the stress so it made sense to me to grab that rage theme chop it up. Build it up throughout this sequence. Now you can feel you feel the tension building across the segment for sure and then. I think that it's very effective in this very important moment and Joe's life I agree where he went from being. This abused Kid. You know picked on kid the victim to someone who has the power to make other people victims right and even like you know later in the story when he talks about trials and tribulations that he faced in prison or even after prison like this is a story that that for him is foundation. I stabbed my dad. I can do anything if I can do that. I can do what I'm what do I have to be scared of right? You know and and I do think like like you guys should go back and you people listening to this. You got you back and just kind of listened to the scene again because I think like you can start to hear these different elements. Dan's talking about and how they do sort of like come together to create both like this this moment of tension but also kind of a penny definitely away and then in act. Two of this show were really launching into Joe's just kind of mad rain across California Southern California. And that's how I mean I. This is how like when we talk about the show. I mean that's kind of how he talked about. It like episode one is kind of a prologue for the whole series Act One is sort of Joe's a kid. What went into making the bank? Robbers episodes? Two through six culminates with him stabbing his dad and then episodes seven through twelve. I think our act two of the show which is all about him being a bank robber about him. Victimizing people getting into prison becoming a bad at bad ass prison Joe Getting shipped into solitary and then really losing his mind in solitary like to me the the climax of is him losing his mind in episode twelve and then act three of the shows. Sort of like joe becoming the new joe and that's episodes thirteen fourteen fifteen So when you first got this show 'cause you Kinda came into the process of it later than other people who are working on this You know with the specific idea of creating the overall Sound and music and sound sound design at a show like like. How do you even approach your subject like that like Joe? How did you dive into the story? Was it what was the first thing you did when you started when you started working on this. It's kind of a lame thing. The the first thing is Kinda lame answer. I guess I started asking myself the question. How do I personally feel about Joe and I needed to understand? Do I have enough in common with this man that I that it's appropriate for me to pull upon personal experiences of mine when writing the music or do I need to be completely objective observing him? So am I going to tangle with this person and get into a relationship with him musically or am I going to stay totally objective and the other thing? Frankly that I had to think about was this is a fifteen episode arc and that's a long show right. This is a character study period like nuts. What the show is I? Think when you make a character study. What you have to think about is like what is the audience's experience of this show supposed to be an in a character study like the audience's reaction to the character is Kinda like the punchline to the show and that men there it is okay for us to present moments in the show where the person that is talking is bad and is wrong and the music is presenting it. As though it's not bad and it's okay so something that. I decided early on because I want the audience to be attached to Joe and at his hip particularly in the early episodes. Were really advocating for him. The music is backing him up now. That changes later. We can get to that but at first the music is backing him up. And I'm begging him up and making them larger and you're supposed to be identifying with him. Joe Is the only person in the show who gets sound design no else in the show. Get sound design. Were you mean by that? Was the difference. So when I'm scoring a scene I will. I guess you could call them like a hallucinogenic reenactments I guess like. I'll make sort of fucked up versions of the atmosphere that Joe is existing in so when he's describing a bank robbery bring you into a bank when he's in an interrogation room. I will bring you there. When he's biting someone's ear off. You will hear the sound of the struggle to get you closer to Joe. It's not necessarily to make those sequences sound cool. It's to get you closer to him. But because he sort of in charge of the show deliberately for me in the first six episodes. He's the only one who gets sound design. There's only one other moment in the show that that someone else gets sound design. We could talk about that. Maybe later So I I basically thought about what instrument do I give to Joe and What is his natural theme going to be and I came up with this four note sequence which is just four notes from minor sequence sets it. So this is. We'll just play a little bit of that. Here's the this is. What do you call this piece Joe? Yeah Yeah So let's Joe. What were some of the other characters and their themes in the show so I thought about giving them themes but the main thing that I wanted to do was that each character be represented by an instrument with Paul Joe's brother. It just seemed very appropriate that he be introduced and constantly scored with an Acoustic Guitar. And the reason for that is very simply that he talks often about playing the guitar for Joe and that Joe encouraged him to keep learning how to play the Acoustic Guitar so although it was a little bit on the nose and I went back and forth. It just keeps working every time I play Guitar. Times on the noses just fine sometimes. It's just fine. You know. We'll say that so. I don't feel bad about my obvious decision. So let's say this is Paul Steam and Okay so joe had a theme Paul a theme theme the One. That was tricky. Was Brenda Brenda. Joe Stub who is going to sort of the worst period of abuse by his dad. Yeah and the thing that was interesting about Brenda is you. Might assume that Brenda's voice he. She was an older woman. She spoke very very quietly when I first heard the tape and I was a little bit nervous about whether or not she was going to be able to be able to withstand enough music. You know some people just have a speaking voice where you can't put a lot of music them they just swallowed becomes unlistenable. And I didn't find that to be the case. There's something about her tone and sort of the magic of scoring for podcasts. She was just so self-assured even though she wasn't speaking very loudly that there was you could put quite a large synthesizer and kick underneath her. But Brenda to me is represented by a piano. I very specifically didn't put any affects on that piano so a lot of the music in this show has distortion just various various effects. Where the sounds are really fraught and tortured and beat up. Because it's a lot of damage people were talking about. But Brenda as a figure. Didn't really want anything to do with all of that and I think that it hurts Joe that that's the case that that she sort of walked away maybe in his eyes prematurely then he sort of wishes that she would handle a little bit more. Maybe get into this dirt. Get into this crime minus. But she doesn't and so for me. I put Brenda. It's just an unaffected piano because she sort of floating above all of this violence. You know she just kind of doesn't really want to be a part of it and she wants out teddy decide to leave. Ooh We're on our way home from work. One day my husband picked me up. We carpool together. I'd gotten a call from Paul's teacher that he had failed the spelling test and I told his father on the way home and he got explosively angry over a spelling test. He pulled the car overturned sideways at a seat and started teaching. I opened the door the car and got out which he was kicking me out of the car. He wanted me out of the car and drove up and I was in an industrial area. Bad part of town and it was getting dark and there I was town phone booth and I called a cab and I got home and when I got home I knocked on the door. No one came to the door I to knock a lot. Finally my husband opened the door with one hand. He was sweating. He was disheveled and his other hand was around pulse. Throat and Paul was bleeding from the nose from the mouth and I think that was the first time I ever got physical with my husband. It was just a shocking thing and I just jumped in the middle and started flailing and I think scared him certainly surprised him and he left the apartment and I tended to Paul Hall said Brin. Please you gotTA help us. You've got help us. I remember and interviewed her. She felt like someone who had thought for a long time about what had happened to her had really worked through it years. You know I don't know I would imagine and therapy talking with people just really. She had spent a lot of time with her trauma and she had expanded a lot of energy at trying to Get beyond it. Get past it you know. And she did have this kind of quiet confidence when she spoke that really. It really affected me when I interviewed for sure. And I think the thing that also affected me by it that there are a lot of moments of people saying I've gotten over this in the show to various extents. Joe Says it varies extents. Paul says a and this is no criticism to those people who I you know. I admire their stories but I don't believe them Brenda believed I. I really did believe that Brenda had moved on from this. And it's interesting like I spent a lot of time at the people the various people in the show and I do think that they're all beyond it in a way But they've also like Joe. Paul Joe Seniors. While they've they've made it a part of who they are so it's not. It's not even really a question of getting beyond it. It's just a it's more. They've sort of they've they've all changed and they've all become much different people but their trauma is still am very very important. Part of the people that they are now sure. Maybe it's a larger part of their identity per than than than for Brenda. Another issue of this is and maybe this goes into to how we produce this show. I didn't have a lot of personal interaction with Joe Which was another thing. That was odd was I really had to sort of psychoanalyze this man and it's not because you you deliberately kept you know space between us or anything like that actually did it is because we keep you in the producing dungeon that western sound. We're all browsers go while they're working on shows aren't allowed out right but you typically let me up for an ice cream cone like once a week and I'm happy to have that ice cream cone. The olden days when you got to leave your dungeon and got and took me a month to realize that there was a shelter in place or the only reason I I didn't know because I wasn't getting my ice cream call. That's really funny. Let's talk a little bit about Joe. Let's talk about how Joe Evolves as a character over the show and how the sound his sound kind of evolve over the course of the show. I WANNA play a scene and this is from Deep into act to this episode eleven when Joe is talking about being in prison and just kind of all the crazy. Things Happen When he's in prison I saw things I didn't expect to see. I mean stuff that you would see on TV and things like that. It's impossible I a guy get lit on fire. Nacelle could see it from my window is late at night and he just went out here. Went up and you screaming itself and then the next it went up. But the guy wasn't on fire parts of bed on fire and then the third so next some guy had been in there screwing acetone in the south and I when they were sleeping and the guy was walking down the tier and he just lit them on fire. I remember watching that and thinking. Should that can happen here too. I don't staff he's GonNa ever get choked out. I know somebody could come and strangle you with a bad weather with A. She turned into a rope. I know a bunch of things can happen in there and I'm like shit they elect you on fire to God damn but it was. It was dark and it was beautiful night out is clear and that sound just lit up. God that screaming. I remember hearing that screaming. The person I heard it make chill. They still have chills my arms that the screaming of the man getting lit on fire. There's an important scene for Joe As he sort of becoming this terrible person and kind of descending into even into his prison persona what did you hear in the scene? And then how did you create the scene sonically? This was a pretty tricky part of the production for me. You know you mentioned when you when you opened up this clip like we're talking about Joe's Ark and how Joe is changing but I was also trying to think about again. This is a fifteen episode arc. Like how is the podcast changing is more? I thought about this scene because there's like. Let's let's imagine if we were telling this story in episode one or an episode to when we're really kind of were still on Joe's side right. We Joe as he speaks when he's telling the story. I actually voiced this conflict to Cameron Cal. You can introduce. What Cam Cameron the other producers or western town? Here's a lead producer On the story. Yeah and so I kind of came to him and just said hey man. Do you feel feel weird about how joe is talking about this man being set on fire. And he's like well. Yeah he's laughing right he's laughing. He's seeing this terrible thing happened and he's laughing he's laughing And so I I if we were presenting this in the first episode when we were still quote unquote on Joe Side. Perhaps would have presented this moment sort of like making it cool right or making it. Kinda grimy and Kinda like hey were in it man. We're having fun here like this nuts. You know we're in the action movie. Holy Shit Dude got set on fire. Fuck me and really agreeing with Joe. This is the last moment in the show where the music is on Joe's side. The music leaves him behind here so I wanted to leave this sort of carousel bouncing synthesizer underneath it. And be like you know that. Sort of a pleasant line. No no no no. No no no no. And what makes that horrifying is that screaming synthesizer the sound of the flames and this man screaming. I wanted to like make the show feel this juxtaposition between the pleasantness and the lightheartedness with which Joe is talking about this and the horror of what actually occurred. And that's it like the music as we enter into solitaire. Go down. The music leaves him behind. So this is a very important moment. Musically I think because the the show has now changed shape. So let's go skip straight ahead to Episode twelve this is Joe in solitary. Losing his mind and we can hear how the music is different. Now was always there. It's always there was always there stayed. There was like Oh one day I was at my desk here. Joe and I turn around and I myself and I could've sworn like a guard or celebrities like it was shocking. First Time I thought maybe the whole fucking something. I didn't have a home. I mean I thought maybe some and then so I used to play concentration games where I would look at one spot on the wall and if you look at one spot on the wall along your it's harming is one move and challenging five minutes and I eventually got up to an hour and like us. Psychedelic should starts happening around that one smart eventually because the world is moving in your eyes moving nothing is still and is move and so that spot will start moving and so it was like Holy Shit. It's moving and I'm watching it move. And then it became a horse galloping. Seen It'd be came. All happening is kind of cool ended up having one Linda. I'm looking at that spot. And then all of a sudden it was a face in a morph into another face and I was like. Oh this is cool. That Michael Jackson video you know ask where like everyone's faces more now. That's so cool. That's cool all right. Well I want to stop now. It's been an hour and I go to move away and I should. I close my eyes and has gone. Call Fuck that's crazy. It was where we're looking at ended a migrate over here too. I looked over here. He was in my vision. Now go my vision was criticized the next day. I'd do it again except this time when I pull away. It's showing I close my eyes and it's in the dark in my head in my eyes cycle fuck. The Dean is getting louder. Now I can kind of it. Feels like there's voices but you can't make them out now they're like. Oh I get more animated right two. I mean there's just so much happening in there it's kind of amazing your leg. I felt like really inside of Joe's head as he's losing his mind and like first of all the music underneath it is a Banger. Like it's just a great track as very repulsive than just like really good and then you have all the different layers of different sounds like so. I went to things like first of all like the music's not on his side there. You're saying before what does that mean the music. Not on his side in this one the way that I wanted to approach this is almost like the the the universe is sort of enjoying punishing him. And I imagine this I imagine this as a trip that goes bad about midway through so I think that in segue tripping I think so I don't have a ton of experience with a limited experience but I I know that switch from oh. This is going very well. This feels really good. Feels like I'm having fun with this to Onno. I've taken a wrong turn here which can also happen with prolonged meditation which is essentially what he's doing And so the music. I guess it's sort of a misnomer. The music is kind of like it. I imagine the music like yeah. I'm on your side here. We're having a lot of fun. This is a lot of like this is great but it's all to like hit him afterwards you know. The music is kind of being manipulative at this moment. But it's against Joe. It's not pumping them up anymore. It's kind of creating an atmosphere that he's fighting against credit and working with cracked. It's antagonizing him and then once it switches and we get into that cacophony. It's obviously a lot more unpleasant. I think that when a person is having a trip or a dream the things that they see in my opinion has some sort of representation to their real life so it's not as arbitrary as they think that it is it does have some meaning so I'll just give you one example of that when Joe Says Oh I saw this horse galloping What I put is the sound effect of him and his brother running away after stabbing his father. It's the same. It's the same sound effect so again like I don't WanNa behave arbitrarily like everything that's in everything that's in. There has an emotional reason for there. I mean all of the voices of people saying Joe are other moments in the show where people are talking about. Joe And I chose a Joe from each of them when they were saying a sentence that was critical of them. It was critical of Joe. You there was critical Joe. So it's like all these voices turn against him but the last thing that we hear is the sound of the Somare earthquake and that female vocal that comes back throughout the show which is just representative of his mother. And I think at the very core of this story is Joe's mother I couldn't escape it and so that that was the last sound in there that we hear before his trip ends. Yeah so Earlier you talked about. How Joe is the only person in the show who got sound design around their scenes except there's was one exception to that and that is a female teller that we interviewed. Who was robbed by Joe and this is from episode eight so i WanNa play just a little bit of this segment. I do remember telling. Fbi Why did he tell me he was coming back to me and they said they say that to scare you so you forget you forget what they look like they forget you forget what any details but they told you the whole incident just tries to scare you and I go okay so when I left at two o'clock that afternoon I walked out of the building by myself. Nobody walked me to my car. And that's when I started freaking out because I didn't feel safe and I thought he was out there waiting for me. Even though they tried to assure me I was just I ran to my car started crying. I thought he was out there. Yeah he scared me. How long did that stay with you? Probably about six to eight weeks. I couldn't drive at night or to school. My parents had the pick me up from college on if I had a night. Class and nightmares We lived in a two story house and some big windows and I would dreamer wake up. That he was just. If I looked out the window he'd be standing there on the sidewalk. Those types of things. Yeah about two months. I never forgot his face. Definitely a chilling moment. Fred Taylor and I can understand why you wanted to kind of to bring that out more but tell me what were you thinking? When you're like okay. This is the one place a one story in the show. Besides Joe that get sound design. Did you make that decision One of the things Those real joy about like making this show was just kind of getting the episode's as you as you all were producing them and when I listened to this one I was pretty shocked at the storytelling decision. That we were you cameron in yourself were making and when I heard. Joe Weep for the first time right at the hearing of this story. It seemed like because the the male teller that he listens to. He's he's affected by that but very much still has his Pravada in his presence. It isn't really until he hears this story. That Joe starts getting genuinely shaken off of his game. I liked the idea that as the podcast is turning the tables on Joe we give this victim the same measure of respect that we've given to him like her pain is just as valid as his pain and presenting it in the same way that I would present. Joe's pain seemed like the appropriate moment to do that. And then you'll notice that after that I leave Joe in silence for four minutes like he just has to deal with the consequences of what he's done he doesn't get any help from music or sound design. I find it was a really really. I mean other show filled with magical moments. I thought this was definitely one of the most magical ones hearing Hearing these stories from both the tellers really. I was surprised interviewing them. You know I we located them and then we call them on the phone to see if they wanted to be interviewed and we talked to both of them on the phone. It was very Lake Berry. Breezy Oh yeah that thing that happened you know many many years ago decades ago. Yeah sure I'll talk to you guys about that. And then when we actually got them you know got in the room and started talking to them about it Both of them. You could see all the emotion start coming back. You could see the legacy of that trauma really rising and them and it was. It was powerful to watch and then equally powerful to talk about with Joe and seeing emotion. Come in you know the emotion that he had over it like it was clear that it was you know. We talked at various points. About how how? This was telling. The story is hard for him. Telling these stories can be hard. But you hear when he's when he's telling the stories he's very giving a quite a performance and it was one of the few places where. I felt like he was like you were saying like not in control of his performance and it was a super just genuine emotional reaction of just you know despair and guilt and shame to those one moment when. I was listening to at the moment where you know part of being a sound designer. Is You also want to live up to two good tape? You know you hear something. That's really beautiful and I'm like oh no I need to give something back to Cameron and Ben. That lives up to this episode that they But there was a moment that really frightened me To would I be able to do something that was worthwhile love it? I love at this in the tape. When Joe says he starts like kind of weeping a bit and I think I hear him like rub his face or his hat and he just says he says this is terrible man like he doesn't want to be feeling what he's feeling and even more so than the The crying that's what really made me understand that this was a person who really was not having a good time with what was going on inside it was a it was definitely a sh- an episode that was filled with some very intense emotions. I think for everybody who participated in it including me do so there's one other Seen that I wanna just kind of take us out with which I think is one of the most beautiful scenes in the whole podcast and this is the scene where Joe I talks about an episode to were Joe Talks about his mother dying and starts with his mother getting sick and his memories of her being sick and then finishes with the funeral in the wake and the earthquake and to me. It's just one of the most again like just a super magical moment I think we can let this scene take out So is there anything that you want to say? An introducing it. I I guess I would just say briefly that like you know. I suppose there's some debate about the show of like whether or not joe is redeemed and whether or not you know He's he's sort of reformed and I. This is also probably one of my favorite moments in the show because You Know I. I have a lot of ambiguous feelings about Joe but the one thing that I do know is that the death of his mother genuinely destroyed this man. He loves his mother's so so much Yeah and the only thing that it didn't work until I had everything was in there. All the music was in there and it wouldn't work. There's one synthesizer that you will hear that screaming one. No that's like a pitch bend and that's me getting super frustrated because nothing was working so I was just holding one key and I didn't intend to bend the no at all But I was just getting so angry that it wasn't sounding I it didn't feel painful enough that I just started like bending the synthesizers pitch up as I was listening to Joe. Talk about his pain. And then suddenly it worked. And that's what you'll hear here and it's amazing so it is kind of an accident a thing of just real beauty. That's amazing it is. This is The summer earthquakes so on February fourth. My mother pass away round. Three o'clock apparently Thursday afternoon on the Dallas Table Heart attack February eighth the night before the funeral. My Dad decides that he's going to stay at his house. Is your prayer in the morning. My answer the worry Joe will will will take the boys seventy February ninth not morning. I'm asleep and I start hearing like what the house that noise rattling and windows vibrating. And they're all kind of everything on there is moving and they jump up my answer. Scream earthquake six one in the morning there. Sylmar earthquake hits and it hits Harness Rock and rolling. There's an it's going so hard and so long. They jump up and my aunt takes under the kitchen table. Mother had takes my brother to answer the door and then my aunt scolds my aunt. Who's taken me on a table? Get over here like we're able to run around the MIR. I think foul collapsed. I guess he gets chefs falling off the windows of the big earthquake. And I remember thinking about that. Like as Baba's story where the angels came and they fought for Moses bones and they took Moses bones which kind of a weird story nonetheless I liked believing that maybe the raucous rumblings on the planet was some spiritual beings Cam. You just drag. My mother's body is going to have with US. Come on right now. Now I added that spiritual component to it. Were grieving a lot of pain that day. And we had this physical shock to our system That was a while we were having any emotional shock to our system and and inside literally. The planner was around. This was Roy too so it was It's the suffer mysticism Mississippi Dan. Thanks so much for coming in and talking about the design of the show it really was just so beautiful and such an honor to work with you on this. I really felt that you took the show to a whole new level Beyond what the storytelling alone could do. So I'm off and I hope you guys out there listening. Got Something out of this conversation to thanks Dan. Thanks ben so again. This is the score from western sound and a cast studios We may come back with more bonus episodes not quite sure yet Got A lot of other shows happening including one called pandemic check-in that you can check out if you're interested in checking in on your mental health during this pandemic You can call in and share with us. What's been on your mind lately? You can lay down your own worries or just share. How you've been coping during this outbreak. I'm Ben Adair and this has been the score. The bank diaries from a studios in western town. Thanks for listening.