Talking Adversarial Interoperability with the Firewalls Dont Stop Dragons podcast (Part I)
Hello everybody welcome back to firewalls. Don't stop dragons. I'm your host Garry Parker and we have got promised interview with Corey Doctor. Today and actually it's going to be a two part interview is kind of long so I thought I'd just split it up and if you remember. We had corey on the show before It's been quite some time. However so you you'd have been a longtime listener to remember that Has a very interesting background. As I introduced him you'll see just a few of the things that he's managed to get himself involved in But I I learned about him years ago When I was looking some copyright stuff. He's been an activist fighting for copper formed for quite a while and he's also part of the Electronic Frontier Foundation which I've mentioned many times on the show and he has written many many books actually in one of his books. I have recommended as well talk about that at the end of the show when he was on the show last time we discussed the topic of digital rights management or d. r. m. and that is the technology in broad terms that forces you to use certain devices to play certain content or to not be able to play certain content on other devices. Meaning like if you bought an move from itunes or whatever and you digitally bought the digital copy of that you can only play that on the apple the apple. Tv or whatever your Apple Devices. It's wrapped in DRM. Meaning that it's you've got to authenticate yourself to the system and only approved devices can play that content. It used to be that music was drm. Didn't it was really actually brought about napster. As far as I'm concerned back way back in the day because you know you bought something you want to own it and and so you get this file music. File you downloaded. You can only play on apple devices and this will honestly. This really is not wasn't apples. Call in that case. They actually didn't want to have the DRMS THERE. But all the the music companies that license their stuff insisted upon it and eventually after enough. I guess after enough piracy Steve Jobs. I think kind of convinced them to see the light and they dropped it and the funny thing is now that most people don't buy music anymore anyway not even digital copies they rent the music streaming services like spotify or apple music or Amazon Prime Has Music as well so instantly gives you access to their entire catalog but once you stop paying you have nothing or if that company or that service goes out of business for whatever reason it's gone comical fashion but I like to own like to own what I buy. I still have all my. Cd's from years ago the kind of Mothball. They put them in these little crates. But you know worst comes doors. I have all that music anyway. That's what we talked about last time of Corey This time we're going to take to a slightly different level and I was reading this article about Sonos and that's a company that makes smart speakers. They're very popular. He may not have heard of them but You take these things and they're not cheap and there. There's a few different lines you. Can you know pay more or less? But you know it's over one hundred bucks a piece for sure sometimes multiple hundreds you buy these speakers. This is really good. You put them anywhere in your house. You Hook them up to an APP. You get them on your Wifi network and now you can play music from your phone or wherever piped to these devices anywhere in your house and you can connect them together to get stereo or Just listened to the same song throughout the house. There's all sorts of cool stuff. You can do it but this is an internet of things devices. They are connected to the Internet. They need to be connected to the Internet to work. Now when I say need I don't mean technically need they could function just fine as a Bluetooth speaker or even just a regular plugger Jack in kind of speaker but they don't partially because we've we've come to this sort of subscription based mentality for everything and these devices are wholly dependent upon the Internet service that they are trying to and then I'm not only give away the whole story but that's where things start and I read an article about this and soon as I read that. Are you know what I really need to bring corey? Dr Into talked about this. He would be perfect and he was so a really interesting interview nap before we get into it. Of course been doing this. A long time and He he rattled off some terms some technical or legal marketing terms. He kind of rattles off very easily. Because I'm sure they in day out he's terms all the time. It's like me when you start talking too much about computer engineering or software. I can cycle. Let loose some of these terms to a layman wooden so before you get into it. I KINDA WANNA do. Little glossary read through some of the terms. You might hear just to prepare you for when you do here. Because we don't really stop to define them Some of these. We've talked about before but I just just to make absolutely sure. We refer to choreographers to firmware a lot as we go through this and all firmware as it software but it's kind of software for like an embedded device any things device today has software running on which we actually comes up in our discussion. And when you when you have software that's kind of on a embedded device like a little appliance a little internet things device. We tend to call firmware as instead of just generic software. He also talks about breaking device. This is sort of a hacker or computer term when you take something fully functional and through a software change make it nonfunctional basically making it as useful as a brick and sometime. This is intentional. And sometimes it's not again. We're GONNA talk about this with Corey today now. Another term he runs a legal term. And I admit I had to look this up myself so Just to keep up just read. The the wikipedia entry visits tortuous. Interference also notice intentional interference with contractual relations in the common law. Torts you might have heard of. Tort Law Occurs. When one person intentionally damages someone else's contractual business relationships with a third party causing economic harm as an example someone who's blackmail to induce a contractor into breaking a contract or they could obstruct someone's ability to honor a contract with the client by deliberately refusing to deliver necessary goods so that would be tortous interference. He makes a passing reference to a PD. One that's an old old computer Something from the Gosh seventies at least talks about API's or application programming interfaces. Which I've talked to you about before. It's just kind of the way computers. Talk to each other Rom read only memory. That's really old term. But you probably haven't heard that one much lately that's Lille mentioned roms a couple of times Then it's on. It's really into marketing terms which I had to look these up as well I. I've heard them before. I kind of knew what they were but I got a little more context when I looked up these marketing terms or economic terms. One of them's data moat data moat first mover and network effects. So these are kind of what they're really kind of mean as that's how one company can kind of dominate a particular product or or area of a certain market so data moat is the situation? Where kind of like a Google is kind of it. Now where they have amassed so much data and data so intrinsic to the value of the services that they offer that nobody could catch up at or it's really really hard to catch up So the the idea I think Warren Buffett was the one who kind of coined the use of the word Moat in. The sense is a kind of surrounded. Your business a mixture business hard to assail and makes it hard for someone else to come along and replace you in more data in this case? You have the Whitey remote. It's harder for someone to metaphorically you know. Take over Your Business. I over is pretty much what it sounds like. This is the kind of case where somebody comes onto the market and dominates early on. It may not be the very very first person to come to the market but at somebody who basically came in and immediately took the lead and were so far ahead that by virtue of that kind of hard to catch you know maybe facebook might be an example of that. They weren't the first. My space was around friendster and some others but no one remembers those anymore because facebook came in hard and strong and basically nose catch him censors. Nothing else like facebook out there and then network effect which also applies to things like facebook. And what's APP and that is in these proprietary systems the more users you have the heart is for someone to come along and take your place and that's really where facebook is right. I mean it's not the facebook really that great but that's where everybody is so you can't really you know how do you compete with that? And there are ways by the way Data portability would be one of them. We're basically force facebook to give away to export all of your data and imported some of their service. But that's we don't have those laws yet. He mentioned the I triple e. Which is the Institute of Electrical Electronics Engineers? Which I was a member of actually electrical engineer by degree. I was part of Tripoli back in the day there. They put out a lot of publications to do a lot of journal stuff but they also act as a standards body for a lot of Electronic Standards and just one more a two more maybe He talks about Lennox busy box. Lennox is an operating system. That is kind of a free and open operating system. That has many different flavors. Busy boxes. One that's used often firmware So he makes a passing reference to that and he talks about get hub a couple of times get a source code management system when I use. It's extremely popular today for software and get hub is a very popular website service That offers ways for you to basically store your code your software code in such a way that you could share with others or not can collaborate or not but it also keeps track of the entire history so you can see every change it was ever made and go back to a previous one if you need to or whatever so okay. So that's that's a lot of germs that you're probably not gonna even remember this point. Maybe they'll stick in your brain because we do big some passing references to these things as we go and let's not wait any longer. Let's let's get away from the drudgery of the glossary in dive right into this interview with Corey doctrine doctor who was a science fiction author activist journalist and blogger. He's author of several novels including homeland a little brother and walk away and if that wasn't enough he's the former European director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation and CO founded the UK Open rights group saw Combat Corey. Thank you very much pleasure. It'd be back on when you were here. Last time we talked about. Dsm and Detroit's management. And how the kind of thing. We're talking about the time and so we don't own anything we buy quote unquote by movies or by music and and and we really don't own these things like we used to when we bought. Cds and so maybe they just read this article about Vice magazine about how Sonos has which is a maker of One of the most popular smart speakers basically giving people made him in mid struck me a that. They're basically now. Doing this was hardware as well as with these kind of digital devices and be. You're the perfect person to talk to you about this so Thanks for coming on the show so if you would let's start with that we've got a lot. There's not the first and the last time this will happen. We'll talk about some of the others. But since this sparked the whole thing that tell us a little bit about Sonos and what happened there. Sure well Sonos as you say. Makes me smarts because we actually have some of in our house at a This year rolled out a smart speaker. That isn't smart. It doesn't have any microphones in it. And that was the deal breaker. They kept us from buying them and so now that they've they've rolled out a microphone. Free Speaker That was enough for us to get them and they're pretty good package. No well integrated. They've been around for a long time and they have a bunch of firmware challenges so some of those challenges just keeping up with modern network issues and You know adding new services as they come aboard they have a funny model which is at as far as I can. Work out the firmware. For the Sonos that is to say the actual speaker itself has clients for all the major streamers Amazon Google Bonafide Tra and you using your phone authenticate to the service and then your phone transmits the authentication token to the speaker. The speaker laws into the service and then get some music. You're allowed to hear and so you know they have to add. Services is they come on board and they also have to. I'm guessing here but I pretty solid gas. I think they have to be able to make assurances to the people who run the services that they will enforce whatever use restriction policies with those so that would be digital rights management wrapping. Around last time. We talked so you know Google and Amazon and the rest of them they have varying deals with the labels and sometimes those deals are it. Seems like the label is forcing them but it turns out. They're forcing the label You know I especially in the case of Amazon. This funny situation where Amazon dominates a few of the audio markets particularly they dominate audible and audio ninety percent of the audiobook marquette and when they launched part of their proposition to the audio publishers. We will enforce use restriction rules on your audio books by wrapping them in our proprietary around and then as audio publishers started to say. Hey We've noticed that when you wrap our audio books in your drm locks them to your platform which means that if we have a dispute with with you and we leave our customers can't take audiobook and go to a hypo and that might be a really bad deal for us. Can we choose to not have the on? Our Audio Amazon said never never know It is a part and parcel right you. You are non lead so mind your time. Especially novels are available as audiobooks not on Amazon which is a anything. Because I won't let them lock my books to their platform so I think. In some cases those labels have deals with the with the streamers that that they're driving and in some cases the streamers driving them because they wanNA lock Customers of the streamers to the platform rather than allowing them to switch to a rival they wanna increase the switching costs and in some cases. It might be about right. It might be that the Label thinks that they have forced the streamer into adding the Ram and the streamer is like. Oh well thank you very much for throwing me in that Briar Patch. Now all of your customers belong to me forever. So that adds up to kind of challenge for the Sonos Speaker Worlds and they have to devote a fair bit of resource to keeping their firmer up-to-date and they just decided one day that They weren't gonNA try and continued. Update the The old speakers that they were going to end of life them and you know not uncommon there lots of end of devices in the world. The differences that these devices are tethered. And they are also authenticated by the other devices that share network with them so they don't work unless they're constantly in touch with US owner servers. So it's not like you end of life you know it's not like if Ford ups making parts for your engine. Your engine doesn't phone. Ford and get told nowhere parts for you and the cards are shut itself off and and then in addition these speakers are meant to work together so that is very clever or if you participate in a room you press one. That's my last week. Printing press the button on the other and you say my right speaker and it goes. We are now stereo. Paired super cool. We got that in our living room. And they've what they've done is they said the new speakers if you try to integrate them into a network with the old speakers will refuse to work so this is also very different. You know the the Ford in in your driveway doesn't care if you buy some new Ford floor mats or a New Ford Stereo and install it in your car it all just it all just works. They don't get a looking at the end of life your speakers that way. And and so the presence of the D. R. M. creates a bunch of problems here Most notably that writing an alternative firmware for these. Which is the thing that people do just like people make parts for cars that have been into leist and so on writing alternative for for these speakers. involves bypassing the D. Ram and impersonating the drm to all the streaming services and that is a felony under section of the digital in the copyright act punishable by. I've your prison sentence and a five hundred thousand dollars fine for first defense. So that's that's a really big barrier writer. Unlikely that will they're pretty firmer. There is another huge problem that is separate from the DRMS. Your or. I guess ten generally related. Which is that. Sonos is official advice for people who are getting rid of their sooner speakers is to Put them in. What's called recycling mode and recycling mode? Bricks speak so it can never be used again and it has to be com- e- waste. It is the opposite of recycling. Is it Turning it into toxic waste and of course this prevents people from buying and selling us sonos devices and their official advices. That if you don't want your network loggins and your service loggins to walk out your door when you throw away your speaker that you have to breakfast so It's entirely possible. That recyclers could undo this mischief right that they could get a brick device and insult us. They're pretty firmware on it or D. bracket or restore the factory software to but doing that would be several kinds of potential legal offense. I Their Digital Copyright Act section twelve. O One offense. There's possibly the computer fraud and abuse act because you'd be connecting to remote servers and exceeding your authorization which is also a felony eventually under a nineteen eighty. Six Law that Ronald Reagan signed into power or signed into effect after Freaking out after watching wargames. We'll thing you could also be engaged in torture interference. You might have a patent violation or to You might miss appropriate trade secret on the way. So all of those things mean that the references of sonos shareholders as befits the disposition of their used equipment cake on the force of law and that is able to weave around their products this legal framework that amounts to felony contempt of business model statute that. Congress never passed but nevertheless makes it a literal crime to fail to arrange your affairs in ways that their shareholders would prefer so. It'd be clear so the two options you can say. Well you could just like you kind of alluded this you keep using the ones you have but they will never get suffer updates. It will never work with new devices. They will not play Nice together. That's your call other option. Turn on this twenty one day brick mode and then they happily let you turn that into them. For a thirty percent discount on new devices and then those those those brick devices end up in a landfill leaching into our drinking water or Sent to a developing nation where child labourers will work over assets to recover the conflict minerals and other usable Raw materials out of them and the speakers. I forget this article one of the other ones I read about the speakers on one of the most notoriously long lived electronic products and these things last forever. I mean the speaker itself. I mean the. There's no reason to bring this thing after five years. Oh yeah no I mean. When I was a kid I inherited stereo speakers for my uncle. You know when he had a basement crash pat as a teenager in the sixties or seventies that we're you know the size of About the two of them together was about half as big as our Volkswagen Beetle. You know they could. They could make your fillings rattle and they weren't some of those do from that point And I'm sure they're still working wherever they ended up. I lost several months ago. And you know that is completely normal to have Extremely long lives speakers. So there's there's there's nothing about the component nor is there anything intrinsic about the electronic software components intrinsically ephemeral. You know I was just at the Computer History Museum where I got to sit at the console for running. Pt One. You know so there is. There is anyone who tells you that that this is an historic inevitability rather than calculated. Commercial Strategy is talking out of there but and this is. This is really true. Almost all of the Internet of things thing today because all these Internet of things devices are smart. But they're only smart when they're connected to the Internet for the most part and that's that's not a you know part of that's part of that's because they say well you know we don't have the resources on the device so we have to send these queries like an Amazon Echo. Here's your voice and they send the snipe into the car because there's not enough processing on the device we couldn't keep all these voice snippets so the so the Internet is there. But so what's happened though because of these that these devices are now totally in the control of these services and these services. Go Away if the company has bought and shut down or are bought by rival. I like what happened with NAST. And this revolved product it. They're they're useless or and and or they can be completely changed and how you can use them without you. Having done anything different yeah. I think that it's really like we're starting to get into this idea that I call adversarial interoperability here. I think that's where petted and I think it's important as we as we head into this to talk about the floor and the ceiling on the way that these products work so the floor would be defined by something like Consumer Protection Statutes for example and in California. I believe manufacturers have to provide parts for their equipment after for seven years. So you know if you get a six year old powerbook and you'd think Mac Book and You bring it to a service depot in Oregon or Washington state. They might say. I'm sorry. There are no parts for this. But if you go to the State Line into California there'd be like all right well except for you so that you know there are lots and lots of consumer protection laws and regulations that define a floor on interoperability. We might in fact have a thing that says if I buy device from you. Notwithstanding whatever was in the click through agreement you're not allowed to Brick it you know if you're still in business like unless you declare bankruptcy than you have to continue sport this product for a certain number of years and keep the servers alive and that it's not sufficient to do something like you know. This is the thing that keeps coming up with the media where like Microsoft and other companies have said. Oh we're shutting down this like drm server that we run For our bookstore. Because we've decided not let you have a not not to do that store anymore because you know it wasn't very profitable so we're just GonNa take away all your e books but don't worry we'll give you a refund right and I was a bookseller for a long time between bookseller. And no matter what happened I never got to go over to your house and take books back. Not even if I left the money that you've given me in the first place right so so we might say as a contractual matter. Mike if you'RE GONNA if you're GonNa make me click through a thing that says I agree in perpetuity. But I'm in a disagreement might fit as a contractual matter that you agree in perpetuity that you will hold up your end of the bargain too and you know what might be good versions of that rule and bad versions that will depending on how it's crafted and who captures and what kind of loopholes that might have and you know whether or not it makes it impossible for example to offer free and open source software like a cooperative because you would have to guarantee the you'd be in business forever. I might endorse one or more of those rules. That would the floor. But then there's a feeling and the ceiling historically has been defined by competitors and ingenuity historically competitors who saw a company engaged in conduct that their customers did not like that that was that they knew the customers like the product but not some element or aspect of it. Like maybe the printer. It costs too much or maybe you know to. They couldn't overclock processors because they they came with a little luck on them or whatever competitors would enter the marketplace and say hey I know you like this product and it seems like it's a take it or leave a deal like you gotta take the bad with the good with whatever the original manufacturers offer to but I tell you what you buy my thing and plug it into their thing and you got all the benefits of their product and none of the downside. Aren't going to pick up the downsides and what that did in addition to liberate and consumers from the You know dictatorial. Judgment of vendors. Is it also disciplined? The firms themselves. Right like there was in the boardroom in the product design meeting always this calculus. Like how badly and we'd screw over our customer before a competitor goes I'll take that market and and so we had this equillibrium that emerged not just from law and not just from bad publicity from the possibility that you just end up losing your market share so you know for example When I was a division of IBM they sued a little. I think they're Taiwanese company called static controls over refilling their toner. They lost a lawsuit. Well let's mark is now a division of static controls so that was. That was the thing that you had to watch out for that you might create the market that the company that put you out of business would enter right that they would go Hot there is my opportunity. You Know Sun microsystems used to this up and down the block. I used to be an SGI integrator Silicon graphics like the most proprietary of all the UNIX. And like we would make a thing and we'd have some element of our business model where you would have to pay extra to get something else or some other. You know You know chicanery and that would just come in and go. Yeah now we've got this product that you can put in your network and he does all the things that you can't do. It might do not. It might not do the things asked you can do. But like buying our thing and the STI boxes cheaper than buying the STI box and then paying for all the upgrade. You'll get everything you need so this this made the market really vibrant because companies like you know Phoenix Computers. Right so phoenix computers. Is this tiny little startup. That had this guy working for them name Tom Jennings. Tom Is probably best known today. For being the guy who created FidoNet which was like an early Devia can recall and Tom's like a hardware wizard and When IBM did the PC they published a SPEC for they're wrong and Tom sat down our manual for their. I'm looking. Api At book. I've got a picture of it. In my flicker feet at Tom's copy of it and he sat down and he went through that book and he wrote a SPEC for a new wrong that was compatible with. Ibm's wrong and then they hired some Texas instruments programmers who'd never touched. Intel processor and no one could claim we're copying Intel code and they had them re implement the IBM ROM as a third party wrong and then Phoenix put into business. A bunch of companies are pretty familiar these days Dell Gateway Com every PC clone had a phoenix. Raw Minute Right. That was the normal course of action in those days and it meant that firms had a hard time cornering the market when they did corner the market they were not a kind of You know unbudgeted giant. Who you'd be a fool to go up against instead. They were thought of like kind of slow moving lucky fool who Had had you know through their own greed and lack of competitive edge had corralled in one place all of the customers that you wanted to steal from them and giving you a thing to sell them you know like the. I don't know if you remember that that Daffy duck cartoon where he's a traveling salesman and he's trying to sell something to this bank robbers hold up in a house and keeps trying to sell you something and eventually blows the house up in their like sailing through. The air is holding onto the DOORKNOB that he was about to turn to try and get into the house again. Offered something does Mac. I know what you need. You need a house to go with this door now. What the what the giants did was they made. Houses to go with other people's doorknobs. And eventually you could bootstrap that into a house selling business and so you know. That was the natural order of things. So how did we get here because today the Internet is five giant website? Silver screen shots of the other four and and and the companies that dominate that space as the other tech spaces. They tell you a week off this way because of network effects and first mover advantage and because we have data moats you know we have so much data that you could never compete with us. As though knowing that I bought a fridge fifteen years ago help you tell me anything today. Right and another way of thinking about that claim that its first mover affects and that its network effects and that it's Data emotes is that you shouldn't even bother to try and make them competitive because they're not anti competitive because the executives did some anti competitive stuff there Not Competitive because this natural effect emerged from the market and nothing we do or say could ever stop that effect from emerging no matter what interventions we made. If it's like when Margaret Thatcher said. There is no alternative. What she really meant was off trying to think of an alternative right when they say that. Were good facts that are like just. Don't even bother. You know this is we. This is the future the Internet. It used to be chaotic. Now it has stabilized five John Companies. Get used to it. If you WANNA make us better regulate us like like Mark Zuckerberg said last year. Give me tell me what the rules are. And of course the rules that they want our rules that only the largest companies can afford to comply with what that means is that they perpetuate their dominance back playing with something like the Copyright Directive in Europe. That says everyone has to have a filter like content. Id that filters everything their users post to check and make sure it doesn't infringe copyright and it's going to cost hundreds of millions of dollars and then only a handful of big US companies can afford hundreds of millions of dollars for them is a very cheap price for perpetual Internet domination license. But it's a big enough cost that no one else can enter the market. So how do these companies get so dominant and thank you for your patience as I rant about? The company's got so dominant because the ladders that they used to climb to the talk. They pulled up behind them. Those ladders were adversarial interoperability. When apple was fighting Microsoft the reverse engineered the office suite and released. I work when facebook was fighting my space. They made tools to log into my space and get your waiting my space messages and import them into facebook. So that you wouldn't you wouldn't have to wait for all your my stays friends to join you on facebook before facebook become useful. Every one of these companies got their start through adversarial interoperability. Google started by pretending to be a web browser and visiting every page on the Internet. Giant database and every one of them has encouraged passage of laws and regulations and the creation of novel courts Judgements that embrace new theories of law. I've existing law that. Make all the things that they did illegal and so they want you to think that it's network affects what it really is is kicking the ladder away so that no one else up right in. So this is a common thing. I see with all these companies. That the the the upstarts the new guys a small geysers start. Ups are out there pushing really hard for standards. And this is the interoperability. You're talking about because to them. It benefits them. But obviously the incumbents in this case these big tech is you're talking about are all about the proprietary stuff and you're you're right. They're blaming things but it's there's a definite dynamic where it's the the little guy has always clamoring standing so that everybody can interact together and they'll and there's federation and you know everybody can play in this thing where the guys are like none of that would you know. We are the default de facto standard for everybody. And and we're not GonNa let you work with us. Oh yeah or you know. The other thing that they like is standardizing as a way of creating competitive moat. So after the two thousand election cycle Where the voting machine failures made it unclear who had been elected president. There was a directive to standardize voting machines and the voting machine vendors led by debold went to the I triple e. And they said we're here to standardize voting machines. Tripoli's said well. That sounds like a prestigious thing. Welcome Aboard Charter. Your Committee and then Immediately they said well standard that. We're here to define what we call performance standard or a descriptive standard. Not Not a not a performance standard and that description will be detailed description of all of the products we already sell any product we sell including the ones that blew up the Florida. Mallet count will comply with the standard. And nothing else will right. So that's the standardisation. Their standards and their standards and standards including mandated standards are a great floor on interoperability. But they don't make good ceiling right if if we say okay. The standard is all. I is what you must allow people to implement but you cannot But people cannot do anything that goes beyond the SPEC then you have firms that will arrange their affairs so that they face no competitive challenge from implementation standard. Only from the things around it and they'll orient all of their competitive armor Around the things that are next to the standard instead of in the standard. So you you mentioned log on. I want to dig back into a little bit. Because that's there are several of these examples of what I think of like the razor blade model thing where I make I make the kind of the base thing but then there's something that you've got to constantly replace that. I'm going to sell to you at a high price so I I give you the the platform whatever that is. And then I'm going to charge a lot for the the thing that you need to replace all time. It's sort of a subscription thing and you know Lex Mark was certainly one of those. Ain't cars give basically give you the printer. But I wanNA milk you and have you over a barrel because you have to use my ink you know in perpetuity which GonNa charge you a nominal leg for and that's what these other companies as well. We could make an cards at work but then Donald Kinda got blown away when the DNC came out what you talked about and some of these other kind of legal things that allowed them to protect these things basically with software. I think they even did that. With current cups right. I mean I think even the Kurd cups you think how would you? It's Chata you know. What would you do with that? I think they had some sort of like invisible barcodes or something on your explain what that was all right so so. We need a little bit of legislative history. Here make it all make sense so when the DMC was passed it was billed as a way of fighting copyright infringement but it was also designed to help protect business models even when violating those. Does this pedals. DidN'T VIOLATE COPYRIGHTS? I think. Something like the Sega. Dreamcast right back to the back to the mid nineties. The Sega dreamcast had a business model. That was that they would sell you hardware while necessarily at a discount but but cheaper and Then they would charge independent software vendors to make software for the Sega and they had a little Like SEGA CD detection routine in the dreamcast. And if you burned a SEGA CD and you stuck it in the in the CD drive the Sega would say I'm sorry. This isn't an unofficial SEGA CD so the the software vendors who made SEGA Games had to buy time on SEGA CD presses in order to make their games and SEGA CHARLESTON FOREVER. See they press got paid before a single. Cd was sold and even if the game tank say you got a lot of money now think about it for minute. Say I'm an independent software vendor and I make a video game. That's my copyrighted. Works and sell it to you. Who owns a Sega dreamcast? That is your property. And you play the game on your Sega Console. No copyright infringement has taken place obviously right selling your own copyrighted work to someone who wants it who then goes on to enjoy it on equipment that belongs to them is definitively not a lucky right infringement. Right in the same way that going into a store and say India and buying a DVD for cheaper than a cost in America the official DVD and bringing home to America and watching it is not a copyright infringement paying the rights holder. Exactly THE PRICE. They asked for their copyrighted work. And enjoying it in a way that you are supposed to enjoy it the opposite of copyright infringement but the DMCA's intention was to make it illegal to frustrate these commercial desires and so the law was passed with no exception for people who broke the R. M. But never violated copyright right so in other words if you bypass the region lock on the DVD player but only ever watch DVD's that you had paid for legitimately Fr- that were official copies. The breaking of the lock itself would be a copyright violation. Even though you committed no piracy and what this did was it said that anyone who made a work Omega device that played copyrighted works. Could Felon is any conduct that their shareholders frowned upon? But then a funny thing happened on the way to the twenty first century which is that software appeared in every device. And what you could say. Is that the copyright law that you bypassed. In order to unlock the device was not a lock that protected media in the device it was a law protected the firmware of the device right so that the coffee right work is the devices own operating system not a game not a DVD but the software in the device. So I said lex knock sued Out of controls over Bypassing the DRM on there a toner cartridge wasn't a toner. They were laser printers and That software was at twelve byte program on primitive hip in the Turner Cartridge. That would When the toner ran out it would flip single bit from. Im Foale too. I am empty and then it didn't matter how much carbon you put back. In the toner cartridge it would still say I am empty. And instead of control of her near that twelve program which can't have been very difficult and And and made a chip. That said I'm full when they went to court. The judge said to lex mark. Where's your copyrighted work and let's not said it's at twelve program in the chip and of course it well. Software is copyright about twelve. Bikes is not enough to raise the level of copyright that is not even Haiku Right. And so it's not copyright -able but flat flash forward to today and you have something like an HP printer cartridge with HP HP Subscription Business Model. So HP now sells printers where you have to pay a monthly subscription and no matter how much ink you having your cartridge if you've used up all the pages your subscription provides for that month then. Your printer won't print anymore. They have tens of thousands of lines of code in that device right. They've got a little system on a chip costs about twenty seven cents. It's got Lennox on it. It's got probably an insecure version of busy box on it and and It is assuredly copyrighted work and so now what you have is anyone who's got software and their device only needs to add a one molecule thick layer of drm that you have to scrape off in order to change the software and now doing anything to that device becomes a felony so most recently. The company called Abbott Labs or a giant in the medical device. Feel based in Silicon Valley and They make a continuous glucose. Monitor and continuous glucose monitors are half of what are called close loops or artificial pancreases. These are things that were invented by diabetes for themselves. They would take on an implanted. Insulin pump and a continuous glucose monitor writes some software that would read the output from the Glucose Monitor and titrate a dose of insulin. And we're keeping going all around the clock so for one thing you could sleep through the night. Which is the thing that a lot of people? Party's can't do you have to wake up in the morning. Stick yourself in. Check your blood sugar. It you ended up with a much better blood sugar range which you know has long range implications people whose blood sugar is habitually range. Di Really early. It's a major course. Source of early mortality. So that makes this device and outputs data to an APP on your phone and some people with diabetes reverse engineered the APP so that they could extract their own blood sugar data and feed it into an algorithm. That would then directly functioning of their of their insulin pumps and Abbott labs for its own reasons. Maybe it wants to make sure they buy their own Abbott Labs Insulin pumps and you know Johnson and Johnson Applied for and got approval for an insulin. Pump that uses a proprietary cartridge. So that even though the influence selfish commodity you know banting and best invented insulin. One hundred years ago and gave the patent away because they thought it would be rude to charge people with diabetes for access to this lifesaving I- logical. The cartridge can't be refilled right. It's like lex Mart Cartridge except instead of having twelve bytes of code. Got Enough Code that it's a felony to bypass echo to refill it. So they can turn people with diabetes into inkjet printers have to pay premium for the biological that they need they can. They can turn your organ into an object so ABBOTT LABS GOTHA PROJECT TAKEN DOWN. Get up and they they did so on the basis of the DMC twelve one plane and like. Let's just step back here. Review going on data is factual not copy writable but this data is not data that at last create so even if it were caulking right of all it wouldn't be Abbott Labs. Who had the coffee because this is the data that literally came from your blood? You Own your Glucose Monitor. They're not giving those away. So it's your glucose monitor so you WanNa access your copy writable blood sugar data from a device that you paid for and you own and Abbott Labs says. I'm sorry no you're not allowed to write. And that's what felony contempt of business model invites. It's a moral hazard that invites firms to view their customers as a kind of nutrient bath to be absorbed as quickly as possible. An ambulatory wallet as a towel that needs to be melt before someone else gets along and it completely. It turns into the kinds of firms that we used to go after with trust busting law. And it's not because modern. Ceo's are more evil than the CEO's during the years in which adversary interoperability was in place. It's because modern. Ceo's are exactly the same mediocrities that have always run firms with the key difference that no one slaps them upside the head when they overstep the line and so without any breaks in only an accelerator. That system is racing out of control and so ends part one of my Second interview with Corey Doctoral. He's really a fun. Guy. He's a great guy to talk about. These particular topics is so passionate about them. He's been working on these kind of issues for so long you can tell he's got so much experience He was really just the perfect person to bring on this topic so again. He's written many many different books if you go to his main website which I believe is crap hound dot com. You can check out his blog there. You can get some information about Corey and of course you can also see all the books that he's written and there's quite a few and little brothers the one I've That I've read and enjoyed the most I think of ever them all but it's really a good book. It's kind of about dystopia in future kind of thing but it's really not that far off You know we're we're basically one more terrorist attack away from some really draconian surveillance measures and that's kind of what happens in this book and it really goes to show how important things like. Encryption are and having systems where people can reliably communicate without being eavesdropped surveilled. But it's you know that sounds like it's really heavy but it's it's a very good book it's a thriller it's a you know it's well It's a page Turner that you'll you'll like reading but along the way you'll pick up a really interesting knowledge about how some encryption stuff works at how some surveillance stuff works so next week when we finish up the interview we're going to talk about Another related topic is the right to repair and along the same lines of these companies. Coming up with these kind of clever legalistic ways to prevent competition. They have also cornered the market on repairing their devices Apple certainly is one of them. We're GONNA talk about Apple. John Deere's another but there are others and they've they've come up with these gimmicks technical gimmicks that because of the laws that we referenced the Digital Millennium Copyright Act the NCAA and the computer fraud and abuse act that those are the main ones. But you know those laws were originally written to help copyright holders and to protect intellectual property. But they were not well written. Or maybe they were because they wouldn't have been used as a commercial for a lot of other Not so competitive activity so anyway. We're going to get into that next time with Dr. also GonNa talk a little bit. I'll play a little devil. Devil's advocate and will then of course as try to wrap up with some sort of solutions in up what we can do what you know as you get involved and you know as a consumer how you can try to navigate these waters and figure out which of the good products which are the bad products. So if you WanNa make sure absolutely sure you don't miss that episode the part two of this or any other future episode go to my podcast website. Podcast DOT firewalls does DOT DRAGONS DOT COM. And you could subscribe there on. Whatever your favorite podcast subscription services are. Just go to your podcast APP. You can search for and subscribe there and while you're there I would love for you to drop a nice review as well just I stars up there for me and You know if you can say something to that'd be great but just just thrown giving them multi star review Really helps to The podcast in there too so I would appreciate that as well and that'll wrap up the show this week Tune in next week for part of this interview and stay safe out there and as always don't get caught with your down.