Inside The Good Place's Final Season
This episode is brought to you by veep on HBO the final season of veep was hailed by critics as sharp and always excellent. As brutally funny, as ever MTV's greatest comedy for your EMMY consideration. Outstanding comedy series and all other categories. Visit HBO dot com slash. F. Y C. For more on veep. Hello. And welcome to little Goldman the award season podcast for Vanity Fair. It's such an honors present this next award nominees, and the group to handy. Handy. And I can't deny the fact that you like me. On the. There's mistake green light. You guys won best picture. I'm Katie rich the deputy editor of vanity. Fair dot com. And I am here with our digital director, my Cogan kitty, our chief critic Richard Lawson low and our senior writer Joanna Robinson. Hi, katie. We have a full crew today and a lot to talk about. Joanna is freshly back from Texas for AT X festival. Richard is freshly back from some Tony's after parties, Mike has gone down that rabbit hole with Bob Dylan and the documentary, that's on Netflix. And in the back of the episode, we're going to have an interview that join it did with manages sinto of the good place. And also talking about how that show is ending sadly, but first, we're still think of EMMY season, the EMMY ballots, for nominations have actually gone out. So all of these conversations we've been having people, but mean seasons it's time to vote. If you're listening in your EMMY voter go, fill out your ballot and a you look through specifically, what they were submitting for game of thrones dominations, which obviously, there's we're all expecting. Lots nominations for game of thrones. But there's gonna be some surprises in what actually is eligible, right? Yeah. I stayed on brand, and dug into the game of thrones dominations. No. People might not know how certain series submit certain things, and they're sort of like an internal agreement within each series about how they're going to submit things. So if you submit episodes, individual episodes, for the directing category, or you submit individual episodes for the writing category, each individual writer can submit their own episode. They're technically allowed to do that. But sometimes there are, you know, like, just sort of unspoken or spoken rules within the show of how they go about doing it strategically so game of thrones decided in season two after season two to stop submitting multiple episodes, and like, you know, people who've been watching him. He's for years. We'll remember there were years when madman had, like four scripts nominated, you know, it'd be it'd be like, Matthew winner again. Matthew Wigner and again Matthew on here again, but thrones only does one to sort of just enhance their you know chances so no competing against themselves. When the nominations come out exactly so this year they've decided to submit the finale, iron throne and and it. It is always an episode written by the show, nurse Weiss and bunny off, which I guess is there. You know. Their choice. So they decided to use them at the finale, iron throne of for the writing. And that's it. That's all so many in the writing category, and writing is, is sort of not always been there easiest category to win. And then in directing they're submitting one episode per director. There's only three directors, who worked the season. And so they're submitting the long night, which is that battle episode that was sort of controversial with a is it too dark to see for Miguel, potch, Nick, they're submitting, the last of the Starks, which is episode four, which is where the dragon died and there was a coffee Cup. You might remember that was directed by David nutter. And then the finale directed by Weiss and Benny off. And these are surprising to me, the only one surprising to me is the David Notre one because Dave, another also directed the first and the second upset in the second episode. This is my bias like shiny through. But the second episode, I think is considered the best of the season by. The second episode is the second episode. It's called the night of the seven kingdoms, and it's where it's the calm before the storm. It's where brand gets night. It's where everyone sits around the fire. They're singing. There's theon and Sonya reuniting, all of that. So long story short. This is a an EMMY submission decision that leaves out that episode entirely which is confused, a lot of people. But, you know, if the strategy is, you know, we talked about this a lot with the Oscars where sometimes we think, in some categories, the most something like the most editing or the most sound designer whatever is something we think the voters might go for. Maybe it's the most directing like maybe you don't wanna put a quiet episode up against spectacle episodes. And so maybe David nutter felt like the one he did wear a dragon died even though there's the coffee Cup in. It was a better choice than this quieter one by the fireside. No other thing is that those first two episodes are good, but they're setup episodes. I mean, the first one is is total table setting. And the second one is like even more table setting. It's good. And you know, to great script by Brian Cogan, but I could see look, none of them think they made a bad final season. Right. They know. But I mean the coffee Cup thing is tough. That's a tough thing. I just think I think direct, Tori. Like I think what he what David under the night, seven kingdoms, even though it's a place setting episode. There's so much he did to drought so much emotion. And he famously does a lot of coverage. So there's all is there's just a lot of the directors hand and that episode. But you're right. It's not like a big splashy a dragon dies for inexplicable reasons episode, which is what upset for is. So, you know, I what about the long night the that's, that's the minute for directing. So I'm gonna go sometimes but not the battling Kingsland. You're not the but not the bells which, you know if I were him, I would pick the bells over the long night because I think the bells the way it pairs action with sort of the emotional reactions on the ground was more effective. But, you know, I I don't know. I mean, I'm there's a lot of brains at work behind this admission process. And I'm sure they're still gonna win like a mountain of awards. I just I know they're vulnerable in the writing category. I think if they had submitted an kingdoms, they might have had a chance of winning, but I also understand if you're wasting money if you're like, no it's our it's our episode that's going to go in. So that's you know that's the choices that were made. Well, it's just it's, it's a funny little illustration of the difference between the way that fans process, something in the way, the creators, do surly, you know, like everyone on Twitter is like, how did they didn't submit this episode for best writing? It's clearly the best episode and whatever this sort of strategy behind the scenes is the sort of overt reality is like Weiss unbending off and whoever else. Just think about the show differently. You know. And that disconnect and voters probably think maybe closer to license any off than right fans because they do this for a living. Right. I mean who knows? But I think you're right. Tori lee. Absolutely. I agree. I think I think the ambition of some of these big spectacle, heavy episodes are is going to be rewarded like, the, the what game of thrones dead in terms of bringing spectacle, in, and cinema ambition to television is in its final season and series long is, is something I think voters are going to reward the writing might be tougher tougher win for them. Honestly because, you know they haven't won for a ton of writing. So the writing of this whole season was notably or almost the whole season was notably worse than it used to be. I mean who had that thing that thing on Twitter of like the drawing that gets worse and worse over time the horse? Well, the comforting thing for their chances, regardless is that they're only competing with one hundred sixty four other drama series. Eligible for. Yeah. I mean this here. Well, let's seek around in the world of television probably to catch up with Joanna on the festival, which you've just returned from China. Do you live part time in Austin, at this point like between this and south by just kind of have a zip code there? I have a lovely Kanda by the river. No. Yeah. The festival, it's Osama little slightly reluctant to talk about it, too much, because it still feels like this kind of well, kept secret, it's, it's a wonderful television festival that takes place, every June in Austin, this is eighth year. It's run by two women who used to be Sistan, and we're just like, hey, what if we did, like a big celebration of TV instead, and it is crazy, the amount of talent that they get and the amount of like relaxed vibe that they still achieve down there in Texas, where you can just sort of like scroll stroll into a screening without having to wait in line for hours and hours and hours. But the theaters are full, it's like the perfectly calibrated thing and then there's a bar. In the hotel where every night, everyone goes. So you'll see all these show runners, you recognize cast members he recognize they're doing TV karaoke, either doing TV trivia, it's they call it TV camp for grownups, but it's just like it's this great vibe, and, and there are some stories that I you know, we, we co-sponsor co hosted the opening night event, which was a screening of the new HBO series euphoria. And then the after party, the panel was moderated by our lovely colleagues on Easter. I should've bang-up job. This is India's sort of big Andrea. You know, she's done a couple of grownup projects with her big entree into the like I am definitely doing adult content now for HBO, because the very explores, you know, no whole no-holds-barred look at drug use, and it's like modern day kids, right? Yeah. Drug using the sex lives of teens. And so what was interesting in that opening night is that there were a lot of fans in the audience and this little girl got up on the Mike. And she was like Syndey Oscar questions, a day, almost fell off. Her chair 'cause she was like, no, I don't why did you watch except? But, but the episode was incredible. It was incredible to see it on the big screen Sam Levinson. Barry levinson. Son is sort of the creator show runner, and he like, put, all of his it's like semi-autobiographical based on this is rarely show, but he put like a lot of himself into it. So it just felt really personal very cinematic and beautiful and a really cool way to watch it with everyone to see it on the big screen there. But then, you know, like it was so interesting because the, the quote unquote closing night event, which takes place the night before it ends. But whatever is was for the Showtime series city on the hill, which has Kevin bacon in and I was like, oh because Kevin bacon was coming for that. That's why they had a tremors panel earlier in the evening. Because there was this pilot that didn't go anywhere for a that which I obviously went to because Trump is one of my favorite movies of all time. And, and then I found it was the verse that Kevin wanted to come to talk about this timers pilot. And then he was like, okay, I'll do this, like mighty Showtime series. I'm here. So, yeah, these are just like the, the interesting priorities, I got to moderate a reunion of effect series league the league, which had you always great comedians. Paul Scheer Nick Kroll. Jason Zukas Getty aselton just riffing like I might as well. Not have been there on the stage. It was like everyone was in stitches, the whole time. It was amazing. And then there's just like cool events. It's a it's, it's both a celebration of television. And then sort of this opportunity for a lot of people who want to get into television to come to learn things from panels to interact with show runners to pitch there. There's, there's one event that's like a pitch event. So you pitch your idea for TV show like that. So it's just a it's really fantastic. And one thing that, I the most interesting thing that I learned is that in these informal gatherings that happened late at night. I'm sure this is true of a lot of a lot of festivals, but maybe even more intimately so at AT ex I met a group of young women who are all right. Who are now all in writers rooms alright assistance, who? Met at eight years ago, and they come back every year and they've just sort of their checking in with each other as they work their way at the ladder, and it just seems like it's a very youth focused festival very female focus festival, and it's an interesting way to see how maybe slowly, but surely, the landscape of who gets to make television is being changed started from within. So I don't know. It was it was a really fascinating lovely event. Like you said, I'm reluctant to fog it too hard because I don't want it to get enormous. And then you don't health by I'll I was talking to Janet Pearson who runs southbound, she's like, I'm a little jealous of the size. You know, she loves her festival, of course. But like she's like, I'm a little jealous of the sizes, Fessel it feels like the perfect the perfect size where, you know, is big enough that you all the talent, you want to get, you know, probably still comes, but small enough that it feels manageable in downtown Austin. So it's really, really great time. Thanks for sending me, Mike. Oh, is there anything that you saw this is you for you that we should be looking out for as we look pass MEC's into TV? We can watch soon sitting on the hill is something to check out on Showtime, as sort of a, you know, a Boston Adelphi nimberg from Hollywood reporter moderated that panel. And I was I was talking to him before. And he's like, he's like should I just do my boss and acts and the whole time. And I really wish Richard had been there to do a classic. Is that my daughter, and they're sort of a? Review of that show me up on the site by the time this episode is live in a phonetic Boston accent, exactly. This episode is brought to you by game of thrones on HBO summers span decades winters, can last a lifetime the final season in portrays. The main characters final fight for the iron throne. Game of thrones has critics raving. The final season is the biggest show on TV era defining MTV's greatest show of all time for your consideration and outstanding drama series and all other categories. Visit HBO dot com slash FIC. For more on game of thrones. Okay. Richard. Let's hear about your recent adventures. But you watch the twentieth awards which I did as well and Sunday night on CBS and then actually went to an after party for the Tonys afterwards. But maybe we should start first by talking about the broadcast itself the ratings came in what's a pretty familiar story for any award shows. Now they were a record low, but the Tony awards have always kind of had lower ratings than the, the bigger ones because of the nature of Broadway. What did you just think about the Tony awards as a show? Well, it was a weird, your it's yet another year where they're not going to broadcast certain categories because. You know, in the interest of time, so you didn't get you saw like a tiny little snippet of Bob macky, winning best, costume design for the share show and like Bob mukisa legend, we should be able to see his whole speech, especially when you have the host James corden, constantly doing bits and songs and routines throughout the evening that I didn't think very good. And you're like this is like I know we need some of that, but it just felt like a very distracted show like its priorities were in a weird place. And I think that combined with the fact that there just wasn't really a huge hit musical this season. I mean Haiti's town, which one like is big New York's theater world. But like it's not Hamilton. It's not something that people from all over the country will tune into to watch something from. So I think those two factors, I think kind of a week host and of not a week crop of nominees, but just a little bit less. Flashy conspired to make it. I mean under six million people on CBS on Sunday night like that is, and you wonder why like what the incentive for them to keep airing? It is. I mean they have more targeted ads. I was making joke to my friend watching the bra. Cast. I was like every single ad has been for gay people are open. And so maybe they're like, okay, we'll still get that Nisha add money. But I think the awards, well, they'll be bullied next year because they'll be Hugh Jackman and Sutton foster in the music man, which will just like eat the world. So maybe the brighter future awaits, but there was something of an existential crisis kind of hanging around the show this year, wasn't a big commercial for James, Gordon. Like his opening number was essentially a commercial for his show, you know, certain ways. Yeah. Which I didn't you know, I get like it's energy. It's in brand to the Tomlin same network. But like said something about it felt extra synthetic this time around, you know, he also did stuff that like, you know, he went through to various famous people in the audience who were nominated him as like show us what your face will be if you lose and, you know, and it's like that joke, it's been made at every award show for the past twenty years, it feels like like let's say something a little new, and then his opening number was him singing largely about television, which was like sort of, I would not largely, but there was a section where he just listed a whole, you know, Slough. TV shows. So I don't know it just felt strange in its advertisement for James corden and his show and maybe a little bit like it should have been more focused on, on, on the theater. So I turned it on late and kind of tuna, just in time to see Rachel chapter, and who was the one woman nominated for best director of a musical. And she won. And she gave his speech that wasn't just like politically minded about like having more women involved in theater, but it was really long and the orchestra didn't play her off and she just kept talking. And like I get that the pacing of the Tonys can, you know, be slower because they expect people to watch, but it did feel like our minor to me to, you know, Bob macky being not tell by society, like they do let the people talk a little bit more. It is more of an award show, that's about giving the awards and then about the performances, which obviously are kind of superior anything the Oscars can do because these are people who perform on stage. So even though like the, the host of it, aside, it did remind me of the things that I think are good. In a word shows just mostly just letting people talk. Well, that's the thing is like I wished that the Tonys this year. Year and you know other award shows which just give a little more time for spontaneity for breathing room. You know, like just allow for that. Don't pack it. So tightly with bits and stuff that you think I mean, I guess the thinking is essentially, it'll viral it'll be like Ellen selfie at the Oscars or whatever which was like five years ago, which is yeah, it was a while ago now and, you know, I think that when you see something on the Emmys, when the, the produce the director of the Oscar show or whatever like propose to his girlfriend, and, you know, crazy speeches and, you know, I just think that removing any possibility for something weird unexpected makes for a pretty state award show. And I think the Tonys for awhile has been able to coast on the fact that like you said, Katie, they have these live performances, which are great. But like in a year, when they're the musicals aren't like as thrilling as they have been in the past, you can't really just rely on those forces and so yeah, I don't know. I I'm not surprised that it had such low ratings also like in the heyday of the Tonys, right? Which. I don't know when that would have been. But while these, yes. Like Broadway shows, were, you know, if you wanted to see a theater like you had to go to Broadway. And you would go see things didn't run for like twenty five years, and they didn't tore and they didn't become giant like, you know, Torres factories or whatever. And so you would actually be interested, like what are the good, new musicals? Whereas now, if you want, like either just let it be it just feels like the theater, like everything has got broken into like an elite side and a mass side. And if the elite side is going to give it self awards based on just only talking about, you know, new good artistically, smart musicals. Then, of course, no one's going to watch. No one in the rest of the country. Right. They can't see these things they wouldn't see him anyway. That they'll never see them. So either you just have to say, like that's what this is now or you'd have to. I think it's kind of like the popular Oscar debate that where I was the only asshole on the other side of it. But it's like if you're going to try to say, hey, we want. More people who watch this, then I think you have to start thinking about how do you find a way to incorporate the things. Tourists actually go to the maybe even the touring productions of these things, which are very professional now. And are like, you know, there's a whole bigger world of theater in the US. That's not really reflected in the Tonys is that maybe I'm wrong. That's the odd thing is that they, they said during the show. I forget, if it was highest attendance or highest box office. But it's the biggest year that Broadway's ever had right? And yet, it's the it's the least watch Tony's they've ever had, you know, so weird disconnect. But you have something like to kill him October doing so, well, Hamilton and the Harry Potter show occurs child. Well, the curse child was last year. So they weren't going to have anything involving that at this year's broadcast Hamilton, obviously, is a few years old, and to kill a Mockingbird wasn't nominated for best play and what were they going to do anyway, Jeff Daniels? Do a monologue onstage. Maybe but I don't know that people really care about that. So I think you're right that like trying to find a way. I think just maybe even like the Emmys Emmys keeps giving popular shows words they don't have to be in there. I, I mean obviously it's different because. Yeah. New TV coming out at minot shell have the older shows, perform, maybe I don't know. We're like who are the good actors in Hamilton now like your way to have a category for that? You know, did somebody just start this year, and they're actually amazing. I don't know like best replacement or whatever you sound sad, doesn't it but I don't know. I think I think actors would be thrilled about that, right. Yeah. The thing that you go viral was the Billy Puerto performing during the commercial break, I would end up airing on coordin-, which I think, maybe argues to your point Joanna that it said advertisement for James corden show. But isn't that kind of like the best indication of what's going wrong that the most exciting thing was, what didn't make it on the air? Yeah. I mean, look, you have you have such a dynamo and Billy porter. You know, people love his red-carpet looks they love him on POS. They loved him and kinky boots which we wanna Tony four and you have him at this show, and you have James corden, doing at least two musical numbers and Billy porter guests to sing during the commercial break. It's. The lies. Have this incredible pool of talent. And, you know, I think what anyone else will about James corden? I just find him completely charmless. And I just I just don't like, you know, okay, one song at the opening fine. It's the Tonys. But then we have another bit where they're in a bathroom. Singing, a parody of a song for show, the barely got nominated that. No one really knew be more chill. It was just like and then, like having the self referential thing with past Tony's host. It was like guys like this is not what is exciting for people like it felt very much written for James corden, and not for like theatergoers, and, yes, the Billy Puerto thing is a perfect example of that. It's like that. That's what missed opportunity completely. We should we she's opportunity to plug the piece. You wrote a Billy porter for the musician. You got to have like it was a short piece of you had this great lunch with him very jealous. Oh, yeah. He's amazing. And the real reason for that existing is these incredible photos that the that they're out there online now, but, you know, maybe maybe lessons will be learned. You know again, I think the Hugh Jackman of it all next year. Could really spice things up. Hopefully but. You know there were some great winners. I'm you know, I think the, the, the little Goldman bump helped at least Celia Keenan Bolger of to kill if not her co-star, Gideon Glick, who did not win. But, you know, it was good that he got the nomination was nice to see Elaine may when you know, after such a long and varied kind of strange career and, you know, someone like Santino Fontana, who's like been a musical theater staple for the past fifteen years, who left to a successful television show, because he missed doing theater, you know, you know, there were there were, there were plenty of reasons to be happy despite, you know, the boys in the band, winning best play revival or whatever. Grumble grumble. I think maybe this is the year where just the host the concept of a host can just die well, yet because down the like we loved, not having a high. We're gonna do everything we can to not do that hosts, or just get someone who's a little bit more like now. And get LL cool say a word or to keep you, moving, well, this one we still don't know an Emmys hosts. So it's possible that there won't be a host for the me. No, I talked to you about that. I'm going to be away for. That'd be great. You'd be good. Hire you in a heartbeat. And I think some of that mood of a little bit of anti-climax was carried through. I went to the big after party at the Carlyle hotel that Odom, the publicity company, a host, and it was, it's a fabulous party. It's always nice. I don't mean to, you know, be down on the event, but just the energy in the room was a little bit stayed. And like 'cause I had been there a couple years ago and within the span of twenty minutes, I met Sally field. Glenn close. And Bette midler. It was like you can't really recreate that but, you know, I got to, to see Laurie Metcalf in all her in a very beautiful white dress, very daringly, drinking a huge loss of red wine. I was like that, that, that, that suggests a confidence that we should all aspire to. But most of the, the big famous people besides Darren criss who did play, I'm told played piano at three AM. I was not there. Any, any more, I was presponse was home, but the most of them went up to this suite at the hotel has during the party, and I was not granted access to that. So. Who knows? Maybe there was something really fabulous happening up there next year. Juliette Gordon was being carried around on a throne. Performing more miserable. Of course people. So Mike, your byline is on vade. If your dot com this week, which is extremely exciting. And it really takes a true legend to get you to write something. And that legend this week was Bob Dylan. You went and rested with Bob Dylan and Martin Scorsese this week. Yeah. Wrestles the word. Yeah. I mean, I'm a huge Dylan fan. I'm a big fan of his nineteen seventy-five tour rolling thunder, which is the subject of this new documentary that Martin Scorsese did, one of the many drafts of this piece that I was struggling with over the weekend started where I was saying, like on the scale, I think I'm a seven out of ten of Dylan fan, which is like pretty serious. But you know that there are people who like that. It's a it's a hockey stick curve. And yes, the people who are the hardcore Dylan fans are terrifying in their precision. Yeah. And so this film was actually almost perfectly designed to like to just destroy the mind of upset, you know, because if you were a five or below you wouldn't even care about it. And if you were an eight or above you would have realised what's happening in the film, which is that there's this whole prank element. There are four jokers as Glenn. Kenny was putting it on Twitter today in the film that. That are like fake characters or people just lying about their experiences. And I don't know why they, they decided to do that. But clearly, you know, Scorsese and Dylan together cooked it up. It's very Dylan to, you know, to sort of lie for fun and obscure his own story, and try and mess with everybody. And, and so it's interesting. I mean, I think the film is super interesting. The footage of the live performances are incredible. It really is some of the best music that he ever created into an and some of the best live performances, and I'm curious as someone who didn't catch on until later. What was happening with these with these sort of invented sequences? I'm curious what people going into it with that knowledge will will think, you know, will they think, oh, this is really interesting and shedding a different light on Bob story. And I can't really tell when I'm being messed with or will they think this would have been a really great one? Hour and fifty minute tour documentary instead of two hour and twenty minute thing with a bunch of like weird fake stuff in it. But this is a net flicks is coming out on Netflix on Wednesday. I'm sh- I have imagined. It would be in the documentary hunt for EMI's end Oscars. I don't know. I don't know how this works but it's Marty it's Bobby. It's, you know, Joan Baez, it's stuff that's happening in the film, that is that is, you know, well, the other the other issue that's interesting. Is that a lot of the footage, even the old footage was shot for this crazy for our art movie that Bob was making called Renaldo and Clara, that's affecting unwatchable. And so, you know my, my review or whatever you wanna call an article about this starts with seemingly very candid. Heartbreaking kind of, you know, exchange between Bob and Joan Baez that possibly was scripted or at least improvised in. Parts, even though they're playing themselves. So like you really don't know what the hell is going on most of the time, except when like Bob is onstage playing. That's what you're like this is real. But that's interesting. That's an interesting thing to do to everybody. It's a little bit of a mean thing to do to journalists in the age of enemy of the people. But what are you gonna do boomers, or having their last round of fun? I guess, or maybe not their last maybe they'll live to one hundred twenty at this point. But it's certainly interesting. And, and if you're an if you're a music fan or Dylan fan. You know, the footage is just incredible. I already knew a lot of this music by heart, but seeing it. There's one scene where where Bob and Jones, sing, I shall be released, which is one of my favorite just wordings ever. And on the on the rolling thunder CD, you can hear her say something at the beginning, but it's not really clear what she's saying, because you can't really understand. We don't know what she's resp- responding to. But in the film, you realize somebody in the audience says what a great couple because they had they were such. They were a big couple in the sixties and then Dylan dumped her. And then they didn't see tour together. And by the way, Joan, by as principally responsible for making him famous in the first place. She was a huge folk music star said to everybody, basically, like you have to listen to this guy is genius. So for them to be singing, again was big deal in the mid seventies. And, and so there's somebody in the audience says what a great couple. And suddenly, I understood what Joan saying. In this recording. I've listened to a thousand times, she goes, don't make myths couple couple of what, and then they start singing and Bob is so uncomfortable. And she reaches up and puts her hand on the back of his neck in this, incredibly, like tender moment, and they sing the song together and just shed a whole new light on that song for me. So setting aside, whatever the hell Bob is doing us all and Marty, and everybody anybody's trying to get a straight answer about things. It's a really cool film, in terms of just the music and the scene. And there's like Joan Joni Mitchell playing canyon for maybe the first time ever with Roger MC and Bob Dylan. Just like dutifully strumming guitar, you know, at a party at Gordon Lightfoot house, since this like, it's, it's bananas. It's, it's really cool. It's, it's fun. But I'm still kind of overcoming my whatever you wanna call it realization of what the what was happening in the film. Something else said that Glenn Kenny said on Twitter about all this is that it's kind of heartening that crews says it can still piss people off. Sway, because you think of it was such an older states when at this point, and I as I was saying before we started reporting, I'm always anti prank. But I do like that. You know, there's some some spry pranks or Nissen's score says he left to true. I mean, because remember, you know, Marty of the seventies was a was a naughty boy, big time and now he's, you know, he's like in a tuxedo with white hair at the tavern on the green at the after party last night. And you just he doesn't look like somebody who's capable of just like screwing with everybody's heads. But that's what he was doing. It was people were realizing at the premiere party last night. Like, wait a minute. This whole story where Sharon Stone claims that she met Bob, when she was a teenager is all made up. It's fake. And so, and so good for him that he's still, you know, he could still mess with people's heads, and be a rebel and good for Sharon Stone. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I mean you know, I didn't really know that this documentary was coming but here it was. And there was a splashy premier in a party and, you know. And it's like, well, I guess, Martin Scorsese is really just in the Netflix business. Now I mean, this is he got another movie coming out with them later this year, that everyone's kind of freaking out about, and, you know, they got him it looks like because they're letting him make weird documentaries that have fictive element to it. And like, you know, maybe, you know, whoever else isn't going to release that movie. So, you know. Yeah. And I don't know. I don't know how many people end up watching something like this. There's obviously a big Dylan audience, you know, Dylan is a big business, but it does seem like Netflix wants to be in the Martin Scorsese business too. And like they clearly like to do these big splashy, you know, sort of just massive like getting Bob to do anything is really hard. And so, you know they like to show off in a way that they can pass a off like that. Right. It's a flex its just. What if not a documentary, it's a flak fine? But, but like I said, I think it will be have to think it will be in consideration for awards, you know, especially, I guess, when they did something inventive slash ferry. Trolley. Bob Dylan might have been the original troll when you think about it. Well, it's interesting because he, he, he was, I think he was, I think he was the victim of one of the first, like troll mob, actions. But it happened in mass media. So it took place over, like two years, instead of like one day where the entire folk world decided that like they, he had committed, you know, ideological and aesthetic treason, cancel. He got kind of canceled. And I think that wounded him and it, and it sort of affected him a lot. But he was always a trickster and a liar. I mean, you know, the name is fake. He told everybody who was from someplace he wasn't from, like, he, he always made up a lot of stuff. But yeah he gets the last laugh. He is the ultimate super troll. I mean these sort of unofficial bio pic, about him Todd Haynes, as I'm not. There is also a very Trixie shape shifty kind of movies. So maybe there's just no actual way to get a direct sort of portrait of him because he. Yeah. His skates. What's extra weird and why this troll was extra crazy? Is that Martin Scorsese did do one of the most straightforward, like biographical documentaries of him, right? In two thousand and four or five no direction home. So, you know, which is so it's like to do that. And then this one and be like, actually it's a movie with a bunch of fiction, and it is I salute them. But I'm I'm a little bit still hurting frost. Frostily. Robin Wright, Jeanne crazy salute to money and Bobby. Who are you? We know that somewhere in the world someone downloaded this podcast, but we don't know anything about you, the folks who support this show would love to know just a little bit about who is listening. If you have two minutes it really only takes two minutes. I swear help us make the show and even better experience for you by telling us more about yourself. Just go to listener Q. That's L. I. S. T. N. E R, Q dot com forward gold and take the short survey, you can also give us direct feedback on the show, which we would love to hear the thank you. You'll be entered into a drawing for a one hundred dollars Amazon gift certificate. Two minutes listener, q dot com slash gold. That's listener, q dot com slash gold. Okay. Now, we're going to close up the episode by listening to Joanna's interview with managers until the good place. You want to you talk to him last week is a couple of days before the news broke that the good places ending after the upcoming season for and you guys know caught back up to talk about that as well. But I mean so he's obviously great. The show is obviously great. How are we feeling about it ending, especially after having this interview, I'm actually feeling really good about it like not in a, I don't like this show, and I don't want it to be on anymore. But so many just into who plays that lovable dope. Jason Mendoza, it's funny 'cause so this is an interview in two parts. This is the part there's an interview that we did before the news broke that the good places ending. And then the interview we did after I found that out. And then I went back and listened and he was like, for however long, we may be on the air as like ooh, good, you knew it was ending. That's your job. Anyway. Frank episode or. But he talked a lot about what that final season will be. And he compared it to nNcholas sparks movie, so, you know, get your tissues ready. I guess, but he also made the pitch that like you know what this show has done, and what a lot of Mike sure's work does, you know, because Michael shirt does not only the good place, but Brooklyn nine nine parks and recreation etcetera, etcetera is cast in a way that really breaks through a lot of the boxes that we put various people in. And so, you know, for for manages into to play the like dopey honk, which is usually, you know, a blonde white guy, I think has really opened up opportunities for what he can do next as an actor. He's going to be in the new top gun movies. That's like that's a great next move for the guy who plays Jason Mendoza between this and the anecdotes about miles teller, it can having endless topgun viral marketing. I do it can't ready. I feel the need for speed. Yeah. So, you know, and then he's just excited about the opportunities that, that kind of the inside the box casting, I guess we'll present. He also talked a little bit about craze Asians, and always be by. Maybe on Netflix somewhat that's sort of doing for, for Asian actors in Hollywood in terms of opportunities. So, yeah, I'm feeling kind of I mean, I'm I wanna dive into the interview, but I I'm feeling really good about a show ending on his own terms. I felt a little mixed about this latest season three of good place. It felt like it was wandering a little in the middle. And so I but I'm really now looking forward to season four the final season because I feel like it will just be an intentional drive to the end. And those are my favorite seasons of televisions to watch. Yeah, I think I feel better just knowing the NBC has signed this massive deal with Mike. Sure that he's gonna keep making shows, and we'll have a lot coming from him because it's his voice, I think, more that I would miss more than the good place, it self and which. Like you. I think I'm excited to see them ended the way they want to what's Reynolds. Listen to your interview with managers sinto. Adriana. Hey, how are you? I'm good. I'm good. How are you in great? Thanks so much for chatting with me. I really appreciate it. Let me start by asking you something that I like to ask good place actors which is okay. How much of an expert are you now in moral philosophy? And if not an expert, what is something that you've learned from the show. I'm definitely not an expert and moral philosophy. And I wish I was like I don't really I was like we've gone to, like, yeah, I guess almost four seasons now. And you'd think it'd be, you know, teaching a class on a lot of see, but no, it's like it's so different. I don't I think I have the I get to see I guess, I get to kind of get away with not having to know as much because of my character that makes any sense, and he could. Yeah, I'm the guy that, you know, has has to like, you know, bringing the jokes just the jokes in general. It just to make everybody laugh and take their minds off of that of the heavy stuff and they show and whether it be in the show or just talking to, to Mike and the address is I feel like maybe the question about what makes it truly good act like what makes it truly good person. And I think I've come to believe that if you can really do something good for, for. For somebody like, would it be good action, or, you know, volunteer or something, and without having to try and look good? That makes you a truly good person like if you can do something without like 'cause my talks about how or TED talks about, like going to Starbucks and tipping the, the barista, and then not actually waiting for Greece to look at you before you pick them and terms of what true move makes it truly. Good person is is, is not seeking any reward when you do something good for other people in that you mentioned that Jason's role on the shows sort of bring this lightness this, like adorable immaturity to sometimes heavy sitcom, but so much of the show is about this progression of these characters this emotional growth of these characters. What is it? What are the challenges of keeping Jason sort of, like pure and childlike and fun? Which we. Love for him to be and see him grow, along with the other characters. Oh, yeah. For sure. I think it I mean the biggest thing is from the beginning, it was has always been trying to stick to the truth and back could be interpreted in many ways. But I guess what I'm the point I'm trying to get across is that trying to stick towards like the truth that Jason feels like to not play towards the joke or to try and be funny, but really, you know, dig deep into what Jason really field and, and he gets his troop, with whatever that may be and kind of figure that out in and stick to that, because that way, it won't come off at stake. My I remember when I first started on the show, I kind of do all these things, and like, and I see the joke in a way that would really make sense. But I remember just my coming up to me and just like I'm that's great. That's great and everything. But, like let's just make sure that, you know, it's, it's truthful, the and the way you say it, because people can tell right away, when you're trying to be funny, or when you're trying to, to make them laugh and the emotion behind behind like the words and even within the joke, then that makes it just so much more impactful. And in terms of like trying to make Jason continuously grow mostly. I think I mean that's in credit to I mean, how big are, that is, is the victim writers, they're, they're constantly, giving me different challenges and, and, and just kind of studying from from how Jason went from from season one to two. Now these in four and the things that I'm doing I can see that. Writers have been mindful. I was reading an older interview you where you were talking about how maybe contrary to what it might seem onscreen you're the most serious person, onset. And the reason you gave and this was a while ago. This interview the reason you gave us at your sort of afraid of losing your job. So you like wanted to take on that is that is that something that's going away. Now that you're in season four. And if so, when did you stop worrying that like any second this opportunity might go away from you? Oh, no. I don't think it's ever going to go away. So. In the back of my mind, like I'm just, you know, I swear they have, like a backup Jason does ready to go sometimes. But, but. Darcy Kim just play Jason. I knew that you have done that. I knew I knew I shouldn't. She hope I couldn't do that, that will. But yeah. She might be she might end up taking all our jobs by the end of the day. But yeah, it's I don't know. I think I think that fear. And so is good. You know, 'cause like for me, it kind of pushes me to do better, and like the be ready and, and, you know, to not make a fool of myself, even though my job is to make a fool of myself, which is really Roenick and weird. But yeah, it's I don't think it'll ever go away in that sense, which, which is a good thing for you in season. Three what was your favorite? I don't know storyline or episode for you personally to work on. When we get to go back to Florida. That's always that's always a fun time. I I laugh even you got. You got to meet my dad donkey, Doug, and then we got to play not only with mentioned Edo plays, don't you, Doug? But also with one of my favorite human beings. Doug of Eugene Cordeiro place co boy. Oh man. That day went by so fast. We just we just had so much fun and yeah. Like I keep saying the producers keep joking as to that we should have our own little sitcom, or spin off or something like the Florida men's project or something like that. Why don't you talked about how like, you know, your role in Eugene's rule, and really subvert stereotype of a lot of the? Asian characters that we've seen on television up until the good place. And you've also talked about the kind of roles you would be offered before the good place. And how different they were from Jason now, you're gonna be in the next top gun movie this, like, are you seeing a difference in the kind of roles that are coming at you in this post sort of good place experience. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely there, there's this shift. That's happy. I mean, I just, I, I just, I think it was yesterday that I just watched always be my maybe with minal park and now he long and. Yeah. You know, like you, I don't think I actually seen on com with two Asian leads. I mean other than crazy Jj but I mean that that was just last year. I mean, it's you know, there's this emergence of diverse talent, whether the, you know, Asian or not like it's, it's a great time to, to, to have these diverse stories in I, I am so lucky. I'm so lucky to be doing this at this time because I mean, it wasn't easy for the Vermont heroes, and the people that I looked up to go through the industry during the time. And there's definitely a lot more opportunities out there and it's just like it's just a matter of all these things coming together from from that bursts talents wanting to tell their stories to so many different outlets willing to, to produce these, these stores that everybody has a either like a program or like a. Streaming service. Or it's, it's so much easier to bring stuff out there and yeah, it's just a combination of things together that, that is allowed this shit that have been. And I'm just so lucky and grateful to be kind of in the middle of, of at all. Yeah. He's talks about not really being a comedy guy is there you know beyond. I don't know getting to be an Tom Cruise top gun movie. Is there an opportunity a role something that you'd love to do in the future that maybe people wouldn't think of as a, you know, a natural fit for you from watching on the good place, but like something that you would like to flex into? Yeah. I mean, almost anything and everything is like, like I mean like just talking about always being. Maybe I would love to do a wrong com. Whether it be, yeah. Or, or even just serious drama series. Love story like. On like Blake the note, black or something, or you know, like, yeah, I would like to do anything in everything at this point. Like there's 'cause there's just so much out there and so much opportunity for. I mean like I love, I love Jason Jason windows. Ego is going to be in my heart, but, you know, I definitely want to be with a flex and different skills. And, and yeah kinda use some different muscles other than, you know, being the innocent lovable. Dummy that gets. But yeah, I think maybe straight off the top of my head. Maybe some sort of wrong com or some sort of book type of field movie, but no, we'll see. I'm gonna I'm gonna start my online campaign for you to be in a nickel. Sparks the next next sparks movie, it's going to be starting and I give you five percents. Okay deal. All right. So you, you to work with all these comedians. I've heard Jason Zukas talk about how he likes to try to make people break when he works opposite on the on the good place. What is, who is the hardest for you to work with, and like get through a scene with a straight face? Oh. Probably Jason minutes. You get. Oh man. I was just listening to take him on a podcast as well. And like he he when he when he comes into a show he doesn't necessarily have the by by the same rules. Because the, the producers and the regular kind of know what he's all about. 'cause 'cause 'cause mansion, if like he'll come in, and sometimes you mainly just hire them to, to just to be nuts, and to come up with all these different things and not necessarily stick to the script. So he's always coming at us with different lines or just ways to seeing thing, then there's an unlimited supply and pool of it because the improvise ational abilities because he's picking legend in that. And then so yeah, yeah, I think whenever I have, or we have seen with, you know, Derek maximum Garrick. It's we don't know what expect then it's always a whirlwind mentioned elsewhere that this season for is, maybe like a bit more emotional than, you know, it's a good place. It's always been an emotional show, but maybe even leading. More into the emotion than previous. I know you can't tell me anything about it, and I'm not here to, like, try to have the whatever the season for surprise is boiled for me, but I'm wondering if working on something like that working on season for being a little bit more emotional satisfies any event need that you have to be an sparks movie, or rom com. Like are you getting to do some of that in this season? Oh, maybe that's where it's coming from to be on it. Who knows like that's the reason why I wanted to consider as the nNcholas sparks world. It can I am so thankful to Mike in the writers because like with this character and, you know, in the wrong hands like you could just be super flat and go, you know, just go the wrong way really fast. And but like with these writers with Mike and with the people that we get to work with if they've made sure that they've given Jason more layers. And, and, you know, I also try to do my best to give him more layers, than and not just, you know, make them a the, the Florida idiot, but really trying like, you know, sympathize and empathize with, with what he's going through, and the they've been the major, you know, proponent of that to, to help me kind of bring that out. Jason mendoza's. So, yeah. I mean you know looking at the season what we've done so far. I think I think, and especially he. Looking towards the middle and, and, and, and it can kind of go that nNcholas sparks bone a little bit. And yeah, that's yeah, that's funny. You should mention me that's where all these feelings of wanting to, to be the next Ryan Gosling comes from. The next time Gosling or someone dying. Maybe the next many more someone dying from cancer or something. And I know that you, you and William Jackson Harper Darcy engine meal like who didn't do a ton of this league level of work before the show started. I know you've heard yourself as like the babies of the show, what, what has working with Ted Danson working, Kristen bell working with Michael, Shirley? These people have been through the ringer a bit more like, what's the number one thing you've learned from these, these veterans being kind that's like that kinda just rains throughout? And that's kind of team of. Yeah. It's kinda resonated structures. Whole show just, you know, be there's no being in UAE, people love working on, on shows by Mike shirt, like when I talked to the writers and, and the kooky pool, and the people that are worked with them for years like it's like my. Creates an environment. That's so so like he and familial. And, and like there's no ego and the divas, and he can just do your best work, and you're allowed to have fun. And he like, he and it's because of the fact that Mike is just so grounded and genuine and kind and, and that just it, it goes passes onto to the, the leads that you like with, with Kristen and with Ted like Ted is like an Christmas. Well, like they constantly remind themselves how lucky we lucky we are the but it just come to work and play, and like the gets fed, like we told you do and get the play for ten for, for work, which is crazy. And, you know, we're, we're constantly like yeah. That, that kind of mindset that kind of mindset of being people in, you know, to. To, to be humble and genuine as always resonated throughout these, these four years. And I mean, it's going to be the biggest thing that I take away from from, from the whole experience. How no matter how long go for. So it's yeah. It's, that's probably the biggest thing that I that I learned in continue to try and, and exemplify because it my peers it's, it's a chance to, to be kind to others. Thank you so much for chatting with me. I really appreciate it, of course. No, thank you on the phone. Quick note from Joanna care between the time that we recorded that interview. And now it was announced that the good place, it would be ending its run after four seasons. They're currently shooting that final season now. So we were able to grab Manny really quickly between shooting scenes to give us his impressions of what it meant to have the show coming to an end and how all of that emotion around. It will inform the final season. So here are his answers to those questions. I mean well, we were told like sometime laugh you actually is like on November possibly even December. Get a nice little Christmas gift from like that. The over. Yeah. But yeah. I think when, when you what I, I got the Email, we all kind of knew that it wasn't gonna, you know, go on for forever. It wasn't a tip show like the officer parks and rec because there's just so much story. And you know, very much story driven burn through so much of it. Each each episode. There's definitely a bit of heartbreak for sure. And now onset, like I think a lot of people are definitely taking it all in and cherishing moments with each other. And there's definitely a greater familiar like family like vibe, even more so than before, because you know that it's, you know, I last possibly last time we're gonna work together. What did you do with the cast or the crew? I mean, that people are definitely taking a lot more photos. Trying cherish the moments remember them, and I definitely know that when, when Mike announced it as well, during the, the athletic C panel they've kind of, like, I remember going home and being that convent. This is actually coming to an end reminder that, you know, this is finite for all of that it was worth. It was definitely a story that had n being, and I think Mike and all of us agree that it's the best way to, to go out, you know, to grow it on on on our own terms. If anything I actually really like watching not in a morbid wave at lake watching a final season of show that is really decided it's going to end. And it just feels so much more purposeful headed towards that ending. You also mentioned, you know, when you talk to me before that this was a very emotional season. How much of that emotion is tied to your own personal motion, or is it baked into the store? Story of, of sort of where Mike wants to bring this all to ahead like something come into and naturally your character or, or the actor person. They will always feel some sort of heartaches or or wasn't like some type of like sadness because especially when, you know, when you love your show, so much when you love working with what all these people so much. So I think it's I think we can't help but leak some of that some of that sadness heartbreak into until I characters when we do it, but it will also inform. The seems yeah it's. It's a good one. It's it'll be. Yeah. I mean, I hope you know, get a better sense than than season two grown the last season again down. But we're. You know, you can't you can't please anybody. But I think with what my has come up with. And from what we've heard, it's the general consensus, is that it's, it's definitely a great ending a good way to go. So that does it for this week's episode. Thanks as always for listening, please. Keep finding us interviewing us and telling your friends about us and talking back to us. You can find us all at Vanity Fair dot com. You can read Mike's review of the popular documentary, and many other things I can find us all on Twitter at little Goldman and on our own. I met. Katie rich Richard ROY loans, and Mike. Angelina Jared, this, this week's episode was edited and produced by Brett Fuchs and this week's award for Netflix says new slogan for their release of the Irishman goes to my Cogan. It's mardi it's Bobby. It's, you know. This episode is brought to you by berry on HBO the second season of Barry was hailed by critics as fascinating and hilarious. Damned funny. And I'll Daesh Asli original for your EMMY consideration and outstanding comedy series and all other categories. Visit HBO dot com slash FIC. For more unburied. Panoply.