The Sporting Life - 9/14/18
To the sporting life with Jeremy shop. Over the next hour. Jerry Bamber says that Serena Williams deserves some criticism for her actions at the US open. Final euro athletes been on his tour for two decades year. The best female tennis play in history. And in my mind, just have to really put your emotions in check in that situation than author. Mike Stanton discusses the larger than life persona of the great rocky Marciano. It was also the postwar America when he became the poster child for American masculinity and you know, American might over the Cold War. You know, his manager said that he punched late the atomic bomb, and he was kind of uneasy. I think with that mantle of being the great white hope despite the NFL's massive popularity Mark Lee vich of the New York Times magazine cats at dark cloud over the league's future. One thing about the anthem protests last year would it did reveal his flat-footed little league is when things like this happened, there was no real confidence in the leadership in how you just don't know where the sort of golden goose. Is going to be in twenty years. This is the sporting life on ESPN radio and the ESPN app. Here's Jeremy shop. Welcome to another dish of the sporting line later in the show, I'll be speaking with the author, Mike Stanton about his new book about the undefeated heavyweight champion. Rocky Marciano also be speaking with Mark Liebich of the New York Times about the NFL and it's uncertain future those two subjects coming up later. But first we're joined by senior writer from our sister website, the undefeated Jerry Bambi. Jerry welcome back to the show. Hey, Jeremy. Glad to be back with you. You know, it was interesting. I read your column this week in the aftermath of the Serena Williams US open final incident which has been getting so much attention this week, and you offered something of an alternative take. In which you argued that, hey, you know, Serena's, not focus here so to speak. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I thought that immediately, you know, thought that she's overstepped her bounds. We all understand that there were series of events starting with that code violation for coaching that that that set everything off. But you're, you're athlete who's been on this tour for for two decades. You're, you're the best female tennis play in history. And in my mind, you just have to really put your emotions in check in that situation and just understand that. You know, I'm vying for our US open title and let me get through this match Verson and let me voice my concerns later on. So in my mind, I was just really disappointed that Serena didn't take that route. And in doing so the ugliness that happened afterwards, it really rob Naomi Osaka of of a moment of winning her first major title and having just extreme joy. You know, she was crying on the stand and it seemed like she was confused. And it's unfortunate that a first major title had to come with with all of that. We're speaking with Jerry Embry of the undefeated about the Serena Williams incident from last weekend at the US open in the women's final. You know, she's had other run ins if you wanna put it that way with officials over the course of his her career and with. Maintaining or her composure difficult moments in matches juicy this as fitting into a pattern of behavior or or was there something different about this? I don't. I don't know if it's a pattern Jeremy, just because you know in two thousand and four, she had to blow up at the US open. I think it's against Jennifer Capriati. It was justified. There were four really bad calls made in a crucial point in a match, and she had every reason to be upset. But when you go back to two thousand nine, when she threatened the lines woman threaten the Seva ball down throw. Basically, I think that was out of bounds. I don't think it's a Pat and with her. I think when you get into big twenty minutes like this, where so much is at stake emotions takeover. I'm sure she was really upset by that coaching violation because that's the the one thing in in the sport that you know, I it gets called at times, but it's not something that you see all the time, but you see coach's coaching from the box all the time. So perhaps it should have been a warning on that in that situation. And had it just been a warning in that situation. The whole chain of events may not have happened, but that just kind of blew everything up, you know, and then the racket-smashing and then you know, berating the tier umpire for the during the the crossover, it just it just, you know, escalated out of control by that point. And I, I would think that even though Serena came out after the match and was critical the empire and said they were sexism in a sport. She has some really valid points. I think if she if she would've turned his thing back, she would probably would have reacted a different way. Correct me if I'm wrong, Jerry the first incident with the pyre, I technically was warning, but it was an official warning was like an unofficial warning like insa- just knock it off registered it as an official warning that wasn't a deduction of a point or anything like, isn't that the is that the way it works? It's it's, it was a coat he, he called a code violation for coaching. So that set in the next warning is a point in the next morning is a game. So maybe there was some confusion. On Serena's part, and I don't know this that maybe she took it as a warning and not of official code violation. And so perhaps if she had understood it as a warning, that's why she smashed a racket thinking, okay, I have a warning coming up once that happens. He has no alternative, right? I mean, it's kind of out of his hands once she smashes racket. After having issued that official warning, they have to deduct the point. Right, exactly. When you smash racket, that's definitely a code violation. You know, there's no getting out of that at all. So I think maybe perhaps some confusion on this kind of set these series of events in place. And I personally think that calls romo's the chair umpire should've issued a, you know, just pull a serene inside, they listen, you know, I see some coaching from your box and I'm not gonna penalize you, but just make sure people know not to do this as opposed to maybe putting that that penalty in place. But once that happened and perhaps confusion from Serena's part, you know, that's why we had the situation. That we had on Saturday. We're Steve, Jerry Bambi from the undefeated I don't know. Did you see Indymedia aftermath? There were a lot of people came to Serena's defense who said this was an overreaction on the part of romo's that he lost control of the match that she was being punished unfairly and disproportionately especially to how men are typically punished. But then Martina Navratilova wrote an opinion piece for the New York Times. Did you see that one? I did see that, and it was interesting that Martina Navratilova and Billie Jean King to the great sin to the pioneers in women's tennis came down on different sides. Different views of what happened. I'm gonna be honest or me. I, I knew when I wrote my column that it would be polarizing, but it was polarizing times candidate. I, it was probably the most reaction to anything I've written really is to write NBA playoff palms for years, PM dot com and early two thousand. But this was the most polarizing. And you know, I tweeted when I told the story out us it. I'm gonna put my. My body armor on this one because I know that the missiles are coming and they definitely came at me and you know, people were really passionate about this one and you know, you look at the reaction now. We're still talking about it days later almost week later. So people have really strong opinions about what happens as you said, Billie Jean King on one side of the issue said, Serena was wrong, tear Martina Navratilova on the other side saying, she bears essentially the brunt of the responsibility here. Why was your column? And we're living in a polarized environment and everything seems to have politicized. And why do you think it sparked the reaction that it's. You know what? I, I don't. I guess any criticism against the Serena Williams is going to, you know, she has a passionate following and Sonny time you criticize her, you're gonna get some heat for that. I just ask people just read the column. You might see a couple of lines where I said she was wrong, but if you read the column, you see that I'm very supportive of her. You know, I recognize her as winning all time. Greats I recognize I call those Rama's was wrong, but people just want to see, hey, you know, you criticize the Queen of the sport. And again, we live in Navarre today where everything you, right. You know it's going to be. You're gonna. You're gonna take off one side and the other side's gonna appreciate you. So for all the people who really criticize me and they came at me very harshly, there was another segment of people who were very supportive of what I wrote so, and that's basically what I expected. You know, where do you think. This matter, whatever you wanna call this, this incident this run in with Rama's. When we're talking about you mentioned in the column, actually, you said that you think it's something we're gonna be talking about long after she retires. Why don't you think it's just gonna fade away? Yeah, I don't think he's gonna fade away because this is this is a major tournament. I think I wrote a column had this happened in Cincinnati at the tournament three weeks ago. We wouldn't be talking about it, but it happens on a big stage and you know, at a time where Serena's trying to get the next grand slam tournament win, that's going to go into tie or tire from with Margaret Court for the most wins in the modern era. It was just the big stage of it all. And you know, it's people just really had extreme views on it, and people are gonna look back at my Asaka who might turn out to be one of the great in this game as her career off. You know, she's twenty years old, but you know, they'll always look back at her first grand slam moment as the one that was ruined by what happened with Serena. So I watched it the one in the morning TV shows on Monday and a. Asaka was on that show. Thirty percent of the conversation was about her winning her first grand slam tournament in seventy percent was about the controversy, and it's just really sad that you know when Serena won her first grand slam. There was this magical moment on court where she was all smiles and the crowd embraced her in Niamey wins her first grand slam. It's all booze and yelling, and screaming and controversy. So that's why we're going to remember this one, Jerry memory is a senior writer at the undefeated and he's just penned what he's described as his most controversial column ever about the Serena Williams. Brouhaha. Thank you so much for coming back to the sporting life. It's always a pleasure speaking with you, Jeremy. Thanks for having me. Take care. The the sporting life on ESPN radio and the ESPN app. In the annals of professional prize fighting going back now about a century and a half. Only one world heavyweight champion has retired unbeaten that was champion. Rocky Marciano from the nineteen fifties who retired in nineteen fifty-six at forty nine with forty three knockouts twenty six of them in the first three rounds at the time of his retirement, many people considered Marciano. What are the greatest prize fighters of all time, his reputation though has dim somewhat perhaps as something to do with the great is Muhammad Ali in the decade after Marciano retired, but now in a new biography, Mike Stanton hopes to restore some of the luster to Marsciano reputation. The book is titled unbeaten and Mike Stanton joins us. Now, Mike, why? Why rocky Marciano sixty plus years after he retired because I wanted to write a story about America in the middle of the twentieth century in boxing, really was the prison to look at the country back then there were so. So much going on not just in the ring, but behind the scenes and in the crowds, and the culture and rocky to me was a great story. That's kind of people know the broad outlines of today, but if kind of forgotten the details of not just his remarkable career and what he overcame, but the air that he came out of which is kind of one of the last of the golden ages of sport. And he, you know, he was from Brockton Massachusetts. He was histories only unbeaten heavyweight, and I was also fascinated by the tension in his career. Even though he was on beaten, it wasn't easy. He had a lot of close calls and controversial fights, and it also spoke to an era where he was battling. I, the subtitle, his fight for perfection and a crooked world because this was a time when the mafia really grabbed hold of boxing after World War Two. And so he had to deal with the corrupt element that control the sport to get to the top. And there was a constant. Attention in that year's a guy who he beats, Joe Wolcott to capture the title in nineteen fifty two. He becomes the first white champion in fifteen years after the reins of Louis Nezar Charles Wolcott was that at the time, how did people view him as as a white champion after fifteen years of African American champions transcended race with what he accomplished and what he meant to the American people. And he was actually a boyhood idol of rocky along with millions of Americans and rocky end in Lewis, his career, of course and cried about it afterwards because he still admires him. But rocky, he came of age. He was the first champion he was kind of cast, is this great white hope. It was also this postwar America when he became kind of the poster child for American masculinity and you know, American might over the Cold War and you know his manage. You're said that he punched like the atomic bomb and he was kind of uneasy. I think with that mantle of being the great white hope. You know, he was talion American. His parents were immigrants as father worked in the shoe factories of Brockton and you know they were. He came beige at time. The second one, Vince Eddie to talion anchors were arrested and wrongly executed for a shoe factory payroll robbery, not far from Rockies home. So he identified with black fighters and actually had pretty close relationships with, you know, as Charles jersey, Joe Walcott, Joe Louis and even Mohammed Ali later in life, he he kind of identified their struggles with his struggles and the struggles that I think everybody on the bottom of the social ladder had and tried to get out of, you know, through boxing, we're speaking with Mike stance about his new book, his new biography of the heavyweight champion in the middle of the twentieth century. Rocky Marciano, the books titled unbeaten. And might you come to this as investigative reporter, professor of journalism. Pulitzer prize winner at the Providence Journal, the dynamic, boxing, in organized crime in the nineteen fifties. What kind of impacted that have on Marsinah's ability to get the fights. He wanted into stay in the fight game in stay clean while he couldn't have gotten there without them. I mean the the mob, as you know, the mob has always been around boxing, but what happens after World War Two is television comes in and transforms the sport and the mob gravitates to the big money, and they kind of there's a notorious mobster named Frankie carbo. He's a hit man and murdering with Bugsy Siegel, and he becomes the underworld Commissioner of boxing, and he kind of pulls the strings behind the scenes and he controls the managers and through them the fighters, he controls the big arenas and organized boxing known by that then is the octopus and his of Rockies manager. Al Weill was. One of the more prominent managers and he was controlled by Frankie carbo. We're speaking with Mike stand about his new biography of rocky Marciano. Unbeaten to what extent has has time kind of stolen from rocky the significance in the the respect that he held at that time when he was still fighting or you know, it's funny, Jeremy. When he was fighting the there were constant debates among the sports writers in the fans about how worthy a champion or a contender. He was, they talked about how crude he was how awkward he was, how clumsy he was, how he came. You know, to the fight game pretty late, you know his his trainer said, you know, I got a guy with the stoop shouldered and balding and two left feet, and you don't look so good with the moose, but his opponents don't look so good. We're on the when they're on the canvas. So what rocky had that you can't take away from him is he fought the best fighters of the Aira. He had an honorable will to overcome some. Really bloody battles and come out on top. He had incredible endurance and stamina through as you know, monk like training and he had to punch the Suzie q.. That was one of the most powerful punches in heavyweight history. They once did a measurement of it and said it had the force of a bullet fired from gun a right cross, right. Yeah, it was a big looping, right? And again, that's not a very natural punch for most boxers. It opens you up to abuse and he was only five foot ten in one hundred and eighty five pounds. And yes, heavyweights were smaller in that era, but he was still usually outweighed and facing fighters with longer arms. And so he had to get inside of them and he had to really opened himself up to abuse. And you know, he kinda fought from a catcher's crouch which kinda back to his first love of baseball and his failed tryout with the Chicago Cubs that then led him to pursue the only option he had left, which was boxing new biography of rocky Marciano by Mike Stanton eighties unbeaten. Rocky Marciano is fight for perfect. Shen in a crooked world. Thank you for writing this book and adding to the literature of the heavyweight division. Thank you so much, Jeremy. These these, the sporting life on ESPN radio and the ESPN app. Mark lebeau Vish is the New York Times magazines, chief national correspondent. He's the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, this town about the inner workings of Washington DC. But his new book is about an entirely or maybe not. So entirely different subject. The National Football League, the title big game, the NFL and dangerous times and Markley vich joins us. Now, thank you for being with us, Mark. Thanks for having me Jeremy. Good to be here. Why would someone a serious journalists such as yourself at a time when there is certainly no lack or earth things to cover in Washington, a town that you know well, dedicate so much time at energy to the subject of the National Football League while you to my bosses at the time magazine wanted to know that too. I think they wished they were covering politics during all the time. But no, I, I look, I thought that I've always had an interest in empires and places that think that they're. Gonna go on and prosper forever, and and it is amazing that the overlap, you see when you're covering the swamp of Washington, and then you get into the National Football League and you realize that a lot of it is is very similar. You have the same big egos, a lot of big money, this sort of club environment that prevails in DC that that is very much alive and well in football. So I sort of thought I could take a break from politics by jumping into football for a few years, and really delving into the league now is obviously very naive to think that I could escape from politics one because leagues politics is very, very fraud, but also Donald Trump politics. It touches everything. So my world kinda collided last year, we're speaking with Markley vich. The author of the new book big game the NFL in dangerous times, and it really is a remarkable narrative, not just the narrative in the book, but the narrative now of the National Football League, the preeminent professional sports league in. North America. If we'd had this conversation, let's say four years ago. Everything seemed to be looking rosy for the NFL. There was the concussion issue, but in terms of it's popularity, it was on challenged. Its TV ratings were still climbing and environment in which all other ratings are declining. There was not this intersection with politics. It was pre- Ray rice. I guess that was the fall of two thousand fourteen. And now here we are as the two thousand eighteen season gets underway in the league for all of its strengths still seems, I should say, seems to be under siege in a way like it is never been before. How did we get here? Are you know? I, it is interesting. Part of it is just the times. I mean, there's sort of a siege mentality, divisive mentality, no matter where you look. But I mean, it's also worth pointing out that the indicators of the league or are still pretty good. I mean, their revenue growth is pretty strong. There Carolina Panthers sold for two point. Two million billion dollar. Last year, you know, which was a very, very high number for a franchise though. Think Jerry Richardson bought for maybe one hundred seventy five million something like that. FOX just threw a ton of money at at at the league for their Thursday night game. So I, there's a lot there, but. Roger Goodell still make any kind of million dollars a year or whatever. He's still making a lot of money. Yeah, there. There's a level of resentment towards the league from a lot of different circles that you didn't see a while back when part of it's just market by market. I mean, Roger Goodell cannot go into New England. He connect go into Oakland, connect, go to San Diego. We cannot go to Dallas. He can I go to Baltimore. I mean, there's just a lot of places that that have been alienated from from the league office for many, many years, but also look, I mean, from a perspective of parents who are not letting their kids play football. I mean, participation rates are down for years. The left has been suspicious of football much more so than the right and Donald Trump. Almost single-handedly has turned the NFL into this example of how America has become to still politically correct and two soft. So you have, you know, the the kneeling anthem protests thing is this really divided things in many, many ways. And I don't think Roger Goodell or the people who own the league are very well equipped to deal with it. I don't think they know what they're dealing with. He was Markley vich again about his new book, big game, the NFL dangerous times and and that's an interesting point you make that they can't deal with it because for so long for many decades, the NFL, especially under the leadership of Pete Rozelle who came from the world communications or as they called it back then public relations, publicity, you know, always seem to have the answer. Why has the league struggled so mightily really for the last four years, really since the Ray rice crisis to come up with the right answers to any of these issues? Well, I mean, Roger Goodell has had a knack for for really self inflicting a lot of damage under the league and also just turning molehills into big mountains. I mean, Deflategate is sort of a classic example of that as you know, story that you could argue as a minor equipment violation that became sort of a two year story. Now, you could also argue that the two years story was riveting. It was reality TV, NFL style at its best and. You know, look at it didn't involve domestic violence or or concussions, or one of those unpleasing topics. I mean, it was a really goofy story that a lot of people were really, really passionate about, but look, I, it's just but he, I, I think part of it, he would say, and Roger Goodell told me that he blames the times. I mean, this is social media driven phenomenon, many ways. It's also a very, very divided time politically, and people are really empowered by any number of different outlets to to be aggrieved over something and football. His sort of become a vehicle for that. And I think that that it's look. I mean, I think it's a time when you really do sense in the league, a lack of confidence and Roger Goodell. He's signed on for another five years at really, really big money. So you know, he doesn't have much to lose you. Tell us about the reporting process for this book which spanned several years. It was tricky. I mean, yeah. I mean, I, I am not a sports writer. I mean, I'm a political writer. I do not belong to this club and I, I don't think I'll be invite. Anymore commissioners Christmas parties or commissioners parties, but the Super Bowl party. I mean, I can went to a couple of those and I think I've probably never made it to one. I've been to like thirty Super Bowls. I've never made it to the commissioners party. What am I missing? Anything. Not really look like any other party. And if you do, you'll do better or any number of places Jeremy. No. I mean, my reporting process versus dip in and out. I mean, I wanted to sort of cover a four year narrative in the league during what what seemed to be a very precarious period. And the NFL sort of has this allusion of permanence is going to be around forever that it's gonna be printing money forever. But you know, yes, it is making a ton of money right now and their TV ratings are still, you know, even though it went down last year, it's extremely stout and extremely popular. But these things turn really, really fast. And I think you know one thing about the anthem protests last year when it did reveal is just how footed the the league is when things like this happen. There was no real confidence in the leadership and even like a cohesiveness among the owners that that they can sort of keep this thing together Mark. You mentioned President Trump and how that caught everyone by surprise, especially in Washington. How would the world look different right now if if President Trump and the NF. L. owners or at the time before he was President, Donald Trump had been able to buy the Buffalo Bills. Well, he would say the Buffalo Bills will have would have would be looking for their fifth consecutive Super Bowl and. They would be. He would ensure that that everyone stands for the anthem towing the line, and there'd be someone else in the White House. Now, I don't know. I mean, look, that's it's one of the great force in the road and history that if has gone a different way, it's thought exercise, you know what? If he had gotten the bills we'd have, we'd have another president and the Buffalo Bills would he would be the league's. He would be the league's problem. I guess he's the league's problem anyway, but he'd be they'd be dealing with him as one of thirty two owners rather than the the the heckler in the White House at this point. So yeah, but Donald Trump Donald Trump's been trying to get into this club for for four decades. I mean, he's made efforts, you know, repeatedly to try to buy into the league starting with Pete Rozelle. They wanted nothing to do with him. And that was true for years ago when when he was going for the bills and you know, I don't know what it says about the value system of our culture, but but the fact is the the White House has become the ultimate consolation prize. That's how coveted the the club of the. Membership is how deep is the historical animus between Donald Trump and the NFL. Of course, we know the USFL is large part of that, but it goes beyond the USF l. I it does. I mean, look, Donald Trump is someone that a lot of really rich people, especially people around New York, you know, have dealt with Donald Trump is his not been an invisible figure for, for, you know, for many, many years he's been to someone who's been around. I, I don't think a lot of people took him seriously. I mean, I think you know, every single day he, you know, he is surprised and I think a lot of us are surprised that he is where he is today, but no, it certainly the US fell. And you know, even within the US f. l. he he caught a lot of blame for actually that league folding because it was him that insisted that they go to the fall schedule to compete directly with the NFL and his goal owning the New Jersey generals. It was was he was hoping for a merger with the NFL that would result in him being an NFL owner. Obviously, we all know what happened with the US bell. And you know, over the years, he is just try. To to buy a number of teams and like so many things in Trump's mythology, personal grievance grievance and sort of being in clubs or dominating clubs that would not have him as a member become sort of a an overriding narrative of everything he does. So if you look at some of the private businesses, he was gone after his president, whether it's Amazon, beacon, deaf bazo, owns the Washington Post, whether it's the National Football League, which wouldn't let him in, you know, even if you go to the Comcast merger because if his resume his, you know, he's animosity towards NBC. I mean, it goes one after another. And this is just sort of part of the same pattern Mark. You use the word earlier in our interview to describe the NFL as an empire. Where are we? Now, are the barbarians at the gates? Are we still, you know, is there still kind of Pax Ramada? Well, where do we stand? You know, it is interesting. I mean, there's certainly a lot more doom and a lot more nervousness within the league or not. I don't know if there's in the league, but they're certainly nervousness. You got a sense it precariousness you know, and people are kind of scared about the world. They're kind of they're through the rolling into. But again, I mean, the indicators are still pretty strong, and I think we'll probably know a lot more after the next broadcast contracts or negotiate and the next couple of years. And also the next CBA the next collective bargaining agreement which comes up, I think twenty twenty maybe twenty twenty one something like that. And yeah, I mean, I, I do think one of the lessons from last year year's an NFL players did get a window into how powerful they can be. If they decide to take measures that that they're fully would believe they're within their rights to do, whether it's protesting the national anthem or doing something collectively that that I think that that can really do harm to the league. So we'll see where that goes been. You know, there's there've been terrible relationship between players and and the Commissioner over the last few years. And and I think that'll tell us a lot more. But again, no. No one knows in the meantime, you know, most of us are probably going to still watch the game more Glebe vich ease the senior national correspondent chief national correspondent. I should say for the York Times, Maggie. And we'll be good. You know, all the other nationals. I know that I'm senior Jeremy. That's what I said. The book is big game the NFL in dangerous times deeply report. Thank you so much for joining us here in the sporting life Mark. Thanks for having me on. This is the sporting life on ESPN radio and the ESPN app. Conventional wisdom is that baseball has the best testing policy for performance enhancing drugs in North American professional team sports. That assumption, though, is challenged by a new book. The author joins us, his name is Eddie Dominquez in the book is baseball cop. The dark side of America's national pastime also written with Christian red and Terry Thompson, formerly of the new York, Daily News. Eddie Dominguez joins us. Now Eddie thank you for being with us. I'm glad to be with your Jeremy. Eddie. Let me start off by asking you is baseball catching steroids cheats. I believe from my experience and it says in in baseball cop and it's not, and I reflect back to the biogenesis investigation which I was a co lead investigator any investigation that we took it to the DA and the results. I mean speak for themselves. It was fourteen. Individuals suspended only one of them tested positive. So you have thirteen guys that testing process didn't catch. Why aren't the protocols working? It's not the poor call. It's that the as Anthony boss says in our book, they're always a step ahead. Anti-bush actually says it major league baseball, it. It has the word, Anthony, Bosch. The guy who ran the biogenesis clinic in Miami, correct. And also the individual that major league baseball used as an expert at their abitration hearings. And he says, in the book that major league baseball has the best of a worse system. As far as testing goes, we're speaking with Eddie Dominguez a former police officer in Boston. He was also a member of major league baseball department of investigations DOI from two thousand seven to two thousand fourteen eighty worked as the Red Sox residents security agent between being in the police force in. Boston and being in MLB from one thousand nine hundred ninety two thousand seven. His new book is baseball cop, the dark side of America's national pastime in any. If you could tell me how would you describe baseball's attitude in terms of trying to catch those who are cheating by using performance, enhancing drugs or Jeremy. I can speak back to when I was working there and you know, we will following the instructions of Senator Mitchell as he wrote in his report, and we were supposed to be working independently from the Labor Department and we were supposed to be working in conjunction with law enforcement. And I we did that is the book baseball. We'll tell you in the DA ages that we interviewed him work with all spoke very highly of the way we worked with them, and I think you have to be proactive. You have to do investigations. You have to do boot. On the ground and the old cop Gump shoes that you just go out and get sources and and find out where these guys are doing it. Because as Anthony Bosch says, he's always wants ahead and then everybody follows his protocol. They would never get caught. You say in the book, there were players who did get caught basically just because they did not listen to the protocols and they, they went overboard. Ryan, Braun, for instance, from the Milwaukee Brewers, you mentioned you say that he was he was popping to stop Stronach a Gumy's before he tested positive, like they were candy. Yeah, that's exactly what I what int- Anthony blush relate to us. Twenty boss relate to us on our interview that we had. Well, we were writing the book and he, you know, he said that basically he the only reason he got caught is because he thought that these things will like gum balls and he was taken them, you know, in between innings and and he had a very specific regimented protocol that. He claims and I think biogenesis shows if they stuck to it, they would never get caught responding to Eddie Dominguez. He is the author of the new book baseball cop, the dark side of America's national pastime in the conventional wisdom out there. Eddie, as I said is, the baseball has done a good job of cleaning up the sport from the mess. We saw late nineteen. Ninety s when all these guys were hitting fifty sixty, even seventy home runs in the record books were were defiled if you will, by performance enhancing drugs in those who use them, where do we stay at Dow and you've been out of the office for four years? Where do you think we stand now and what can be done to get ahead of the cheaters who always seemed to be a step ahead of the testers, Jeremy? It's tough to be for me to comment on what's going on now. 'cause like you say, I I've been out for four years, but in in writing baseball cop, we went out and interviewed people. Games, any Bausch and other sources I had gathered over my time with major league baseball, then distributed TED's. And in the book it's tells you that, you know, they believe that's still would the seventy percent of the players taking performance enhancing substances. Now I myself can't comment on that. 'cause I'm no longer in involved in that sealed, and I'm no longer investigating it, but I can't comment on the fact that my experience was is it says, in the book back when I was working at this taste the testing process in and of itself. If that's all you use, you'll catch a very low percentage of the cheaters. Any Dominquez new book is baseball cop, the dark side of America's national pastime. An inside, look at a very difficult period for the baseball's department of investigations so many cases that it was investigating and cracking Eddie Dominguez with the inside story in his new. Book. Eddie. Thank you so much for having joined us here on the sporting life, a pleasure to be with you, Jeremy. Thanks for having joined us. I'm Jeremy shop. And this has been the sporting life when he SPN radio, please join us. Again. Next weekend. We're on every Saturday and every Sunday morning at six eastern time. These these, the sporting life on ESPN radio and the ESPN app.