#287: Find a Way, Not an Excuse
Limited resources. Oftentimes it's just really the crucible of which innovation happens. Because if you had more resources, you just buy a solution, helping business leaders grow themselves, their team and their profits. This is entree leadership. Now, here's your host, Ken Coleman coming to you from the music city. This is the broadcast of leaders by leaders, four leaders. Thanks so much for joining the conversation really excited about introducing many of you to a guy by the name of Bobby Grunwald who is our feature conversation. This episode, he's the founder of you version, which was the first bible app in the app store. You'll hear that back story in the conversation. Now reaching over three hundred and forty million people around the globe and, oh, by the way, it's free an unbelievable story. Here's the big giant takeaway that's going to help. So many of you who. Feel right now like you got a brilliant idea, but you have zero resources. You don't even see how you can do it. You just know it should be done and Bobby dropped this bomb on us. Innovation happens within constraints. I'm gonna let you chew on that for just a moment. While I tell you about Bobby speaking with our team at the entreleadership one day, this fall, the entreleadership one day is an unbelievable day where we take the playbook and give it away. It's November ninth. Here's the good news. You can stream it live from anywhere. We've been doing this now for over a year. We take our signature basic event on how we give away the playbook, and we give it to you via the internet. The theme is market disruption. You're gonna learn how to create a mindset that seize opportunities rather than problems. While your comfort zone should be the most uncomfortable place to be the importance of creating a culture that embraces change and isn't a freight to break things to make them better. Dave Ramsey Chris, HOGAN, Scott Harrison, the founder of charity water, Bobby Grunwald who you're about to hear from all on the stage. Now this is an unbelievable deal. We're going to bring it to you. A convenience of your home, your church, your office, the cafeteria, Starbucks. You can listen and watch wherever you wish for only eighty nine dollars. Now let's twenty dollars off because your podcast listener. So the rest of the underprivileged world's gonna pay one hundred nine because you are a listener and you are a person of privilege. You get it for eighty nine dollars. Here's how you register for entreleadership dot com. Slash Ken entreleadership dot com slash Kim that gets you in at the special pricing. All right, let's get right to it. Bobby Grunwald. You talk about a humble hungry and smart leader who came up with one of the great innovations I believe in the digital era. That's right. I believe it's that big of a deal. Here's my conversation with Bob. Bobby, it's good to talk with you again in full disclosure. We've known each other for a long time, and I'm really excited about this conversation because of your experience in one of my favorite topics to discuss and that's vision. I mean, if we think about what you've done in your team and what you have led and continue to do, it really is a either leave a case study in vision. So I wanna start out in the early days before there was ever any code before. Maybe there was even a whiteboard session, take us back to how in the world, this idea to take the bible and digitalize it and give it away to everybody came about first of all, great to be with you. I, you know, looking back on it, it's kind of all the stories that clearly gobs done and you're right. It started with start with an idea started with a vision. I was in the O'Hare airport in Chicago. Along TSA security line in October of two thousand six. And I have no idea why to his security lines are placed of think of ideas in particular, that particular line was really long day, and I was sitting there thinking, I wonder if there's a way that we can leverage technology to help me engage with the bible. I was on staff at a church into my past career was entrepreneur so had had some experience in the tech space is entrepreneur. But for years that I've been on staff at a church and I was not engaged in the bible, sadly as much as I really wanted to be had lots of excuses us to why but but it just kept thinking there's a way that we can leverage technology to help me engage in scripture because I know there's a lot of people like me that desire to, but the aren't and in there in the security line that day, the side DEA came for for you version. And most people know that I did a day as an app that they have on their smartphone or tablet, but actually. Original idea was for a website and have some novel ideas. So it's kind of one of these examples of where we start off with the idea that actually turned into failure when we launched it in two thousand seven, the website, nobody remembers because nobody went to it basically. But it led us though to the alternate idea that you know today as the bible option, the vision started which Justice desire to figure out how solve a problem, which was my problem of how to engage in scripture and thinking that technology might be able to be a tool can help us do that. Okay. So that's fantastic. We're now I want to jump in and out of vision and innovation and leadership is going to be this. I want to kind of walk through this thing almost chronologically. So you're in O'Hare, and and you gave us a little bit of a summary but, but I want you to walk us through because we've got a lot of entrepreneurs, small businessmen of women who think like, you think, and I wanna know what were some of those early steps to take vision and really hone it, make sure it's the right vision. How did you polish. What were those next steps early on before you ever got the launch, you know, when it come up with an idea in this, this idea was no exception to it. I have kind of group of people at trust that are willing to be honest with me and give me feedback, and that's super important for me. I'm an idea person, so I'm not usually short on new ideas, but what is the process for me is to kind of take those ideas go with just it's just a handful of people alike to bounce the idea off of them. I like them to kind of pick it apart, actually challenged them to to kind of challenge the idea. And the way the process works for me is like, I actually want to try to defend it and if I can't defend it well, it becomes pretty obvious that that this idea may not have enough merit or needs more thought or needs more time. No, to to bake inside, try not to get to to marry these ideas or to, you know, hold onto too tightly, but rather really trust the process of getting feedback on him. So that's an early on. Thing, it's before we're discovering some of the problems with it or were certainly don't know all the challenges of what it would take to implement it. We're not getting down to deep into the weeds of what's involved implement, but simply the feedback on is an idea that they think would work. Is this an idea that people might want to use or or by if it's a product that we're selling in just the basic kind of reactions that they get in the response to it. It's not a formal focus group. I, I'm just not kind of wired that way. These are kind of informal conversations, ROY sort of test it to pitch it almost an each time I do that. I find that either I get better at in it, I refine it in on somebody or daddy falls apart, or it's clear that that it's just not the right time or not ready yet. So for me, that's the very first step for me is to just kind of get some feedback from people to trust. All right. So you did this right? And this process and you had some people go, okay. I think there's something here and one of the things I want to lead you into. Just kind of let you take us along these net. Next steps is you've great statement that I want you to have some fun with, and that's innovation happens within constraints. So I love that. Let's first talk about the back half of that sentence. What were the constraints after you came out of that initial idea filter if you will, or the constraints you had a good idea people were giving you, okay. Yep, this this is doable. What were the constraints you were dealing with? So the constraints so we started with were it seemed like everything was a constraint. So the first week, even though is on staff at the church in there was a a sense of permission on behalf of the rest of our leaders to say, we're willing to try this. That permission didn't come with the budget. So it really was sort of like if you can figure out how to build a prototype or build something, find some people that can do that, then that would be, let's do it, but we don't really have a budget, you know for. So that's not like we have a budget of fifty thousand dollars. That's not enough like isn't like we have nobody leaves zero budget, zero dollars. There's no contract or that can be hired. So then you know, as an entrepreneur, my I felt like my job is to take this vision and really tried to sell it to people that have the capacity to contribute to it. I didn't have equity to offer it in have ownership to offer. This is all part of what we're doing a nonprofit. So all the kind of traditional means that a start up would have the come on board and you can own part of the company that wasn't at my disposal at the time was basically just say an as if we could figure out how to build something that worked, it could really change how we engage in scripture. So for me, it was kind of a Mishel thing that I was trying to create a compelling vision for, and I found some people on our team that had the capacity. I'm not a developer. Most people don't realize it, but of never written Alantic code in new version. Not not a single line. I don't know how to do that. I'm just a person could bring vision ideas and find those people, you know that know how to do that. So we found some people. On our team that had some extra capacity outside of their normal jobs, something they will do in the evening or on. We would spend our own time kinda trying to map out what we thought it should look like in an. I'm just making the case in just trying to say, I need you to give your time to volunteer your time to build this. And of course we're not setting these grand ideas of billions of people are going to use this one day. We, we had no idea what it was going to become, but it was just sort of a step by step kind of process of, I just need to get a design for website. So let's find somebody that can help us build a design we can help contribute to that. But some of that can actually draw up on, you know, computer and make it look like it's supposed to look and then just little by little, we begin to find those resources. And so the first constraint was we had no actual financial resources. We had some time of her own time, but had no financial resources to put behind it. And then the second probably most significant constraint Zet we realized that. That we actually couldn't get the bible for free that people actually owned the bible and we were so ignorant of had no idea that people translate the bible. They have a license to it, you have to get a license to use it. So even though even if we could build this website that I was trying to get people to donate their time to do at the beginning, the problem was to actually get the bible texts that people wanted to read. I had to go and figure out how to get a hold of publishers and people who own the rights to license us. This and my budget for licensing was zero dollars as well. And so that was kind of obvious in other constraint, though, faced as an and I didn't have any of these relationships by the way that was another constraint. I didn't know any of these people add in knowing the CEO's I, it wasn't like I had a Rolodex of people that I could just roll through and say, call this person call this person. And so basically, I mean, every turn I made, there was a constraint that we were facing, but just the persistent. Of Seneca, how do we overcome each of these problems? Sort of one at a time, not get overwhelmed by all of them are just sorta take them one at a time with those the way we approach it. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point. What can you tell us about knowing the difference between a constraint and a sign that we need to be observing? It's a great question. Yeah, sometimes there are those sort of roadblocks that are Indian point sale like we're, this is just simply not working for me. I usually am always sort of stepping back from the problem of making sure that were making progress is is one thing I'm looking like, are we able to kind of move this forward? It is a bit of discernment that's involved in your question because there's things we try that fail. The fact that they failed is the answer that we should probably learn what we can learn from an a move on and do something different as opposed to just continue to press for. I don't know that always have a simple answer because I think the variables are more complex than that. I don't know. I have. I have like a simple recipe or a set of ingredients for, I think probably the key for me is unwilling to let. Go of something in a win. It becomes apparent that it's failed. So I'm not just hanging onto something that's obvious that it's failed or wherever went around me sees that it's failed or I can objectively measure it. It's more of a willingness to acknowledge something fell think is sort of the key variable there. And if you have that willingness, I think you'll kind of know when that right time comes, but when it comes to trying to prove a concept, you know if we can't get to the place where we can even just prove the concept or get to the demo of phased. Those were all obstacles that I felt like were over cobble like things that took some creativity to get through, but I was just trying to get to that proof of concept. If I'm not even achieved the proof of concept, then I'm probably going to be fairly persistent trying to get to that point. At least you know, to see if it works. Once I've reached that proof of concept, which in our case we we did in two thousand seven. We did get this website launched, then it became apparent a few months and though that that no one was using it. I mean, we got audience to go to it, but even ourselves, we only using it because we created it. That's why realized we had kind of a fairly significant problem that that we cheered, what we were one into Jeeves, but it didn't actually work. Okay. So are so let me jump in here because I love this time line. And the reason I'm jumping in bobby's because I thought she did a great job of really helping us get perspective each one of those constraints that you listed out a few minutes ago. There was a possible solution. It wasn't maybe evident right away, but they weren't clear stop signs. I can go meet people at publishers who have their version of the bible. I could essentially I have a chance at least it's possible. I go get donors. You found guys who had some time a little bit of time, not a lot of time to help design it first. And so you really did go, okay, these are constraints, but they're not complete and utter stops is there is some possibility there and when there's a possibility tied to that vision. Deepen your chest that this could and should happen then that's what creates true innovation, correct. That's when you start going because that's what innovation it. That's kind of a fun buzzword these days. But the reality is it's not that sexy. It's like they're a bunch of constraints and I gotta figure my way around these constraints. Isn't that where innovation is berthed? Absolutely. I mean innovation like upset. Many times innovation happens inside of constraints, like constraints are an actual ingredient for innovation. Yes, they're not something that so many people want to think outside the box as a figure of speech, but it's actually embracing the box in recognizing the bucks or in figuring out creatively how we move from inside the box to where we need to go in, not this sort of sense of leading to remove all constraints. We'll get better ideas if we eliminate any kind of barriers mind. Actually, I find that embrace those constraints actually come up with better ways of doing things an innovation at the course solving a problem. I mean, it solving the problem. What does the known problem? And sometimes innovation solves the problem that that people didn't even know existed. It's like a a new opportunity where when you see the solution, you realize you had the problem and you never even knew you had the problem, you know, all at once setting. So as different forms of takes bit the core, it's still solving a problem. And I think a lot of times people think vegetable money if I just could put more behind r&d if I could just do this, I would. I would have more innovation. I've just found that that's simply not true. I mean, I think that limited resources oftentimes are it's just really the the crucible in which innovation happens. Because if you had more resources, you would just buy a solution that's new, you wouldn't. You wouldn't actually innovate you. You really don't need to innovate and fact, it's, it's a plague that many organizations have if they have too much resources, they usually don't have innovation and the less they place artificial constraints on things unless they say we have the money, but here's the budget and the budgets, this and we have to solve this problem. This is. All the, we have to solve it with this or constrain on time. You know, I do this with our creative team all the time. Everyone always feels like if I could just have more time to work on the project I could. I could get a better result. I was like, no, that's just a trade know. You're just trading time for whatever might be quality or something, not just moving up normal curve. That's not actually innovative that just sort of an exchange, you know of one thing for another thing. And I say no real innovation comes. If you can say, I got the same amount of time to work with or facts. What if we could take less time and try to cheat the same result? And if that happens actually getting true improvement, you know in and you have to get creative sometimes of a hot achieve it in sort of forces innovation on it. So those are like might be artificial constraints. They might not be real. They're just artificial, but they're constraints none. The less. So definitely even when I mentioned the publishers in the bible techs we're working with and we had to figure out an innovative way that we could bring. Value to them while remaining noncommercial which we felt was really important. So have a free product that they otherwise sell that we needed for free. But yet we needed to keep them sustained and provide value to them. So we had to come up with like an innovative way to achieve that, and we're able to do that. We have great relationships of the publishers today, but it was that type of forcing that issue not just trying to figure out well, well, we just need more money and we could solve this problem. None. We had to figure how to do it by embracing the constraints that we have. Okay. So I want to stay here because it's like you're teaching out of the story in the story, so good. I'm going to stay where you're at, but I want to go back and just a moment Bobby to where you guys got the site up, got it launched, but nobody was using it, but you want to get back to that point. But because it's still in the time line here, you got those publishers to agree to let you have their version of the bible. And this morning when I crack open my ipad and that's why I love you version so much. It's just perfect on my device on my bed, and I go, and I've got. My an IV version. All right. No endorsement here. That's just what I read, but there's a publisher coup head to say, all right. We're going to give away our version of the let you put it out for free, but that was only after you convince them that we're going to send them back to you. I'm just real curious. The quick answer because I think it'd be great for people to listen to. How did you do that? What was the value proposition to that publisher? Yeah. Well, it didn't all come together at once. Yeah. So we, we basically had to. We were able to convince one at that time. It was Thomas Nelson, and we were able to convince them to basically take a risk on us and our commitment to them and to all of the publishers that came aboard was that we were committed to their long-term success. We were not trying to. This was an effort for us to shutdown publishers or the fundamentally caused them harm anyway, we needed them to be successful. So my initial argument was that we have a generation of people that can't fathom paying ninety nine cents for a song that they love from a ban that they love, and we were trying to get them to pay twenty dollars for a book that they didn't understand and so that whether or not people agreed with morality, you know the way people perceived value of content or not. The reality of it was is that many of these publishers, the bible is one singular product of many products they offer and that. A Christian products in if you can't get a generation engaged in scripture of the market for their products, all their other products is going to wrote is going to disappear over time. And so so the premise was we said, why don't we let the bible be something that is an essence a bit of a loss leader, you know, in terms of their investment, but do it in a way that we're not going, we promise we wanna kinda get people connected back to what the publishers are offering, find a way to build a relationship. We didn't know all the how, you know at the time we weren't sure, but we're able to convince one to do it. And I honestly don't know if we convinced them or if they actually didn't fully know what we were saying. I'm not sure which, but nonetheless, you know, we weren't being deceptive. I promise you that, but it was as well as things why I'm not exactly sure how they agreed at the time other than God just, you know, opening that door, but we wanted to build on top of that momentum. So we took one and a bit of, you know, the others kinda of one did and that caused others to come on board. Now today, though. He fast for because we remain committed to that, you know, to make them successful. We ended up the model ended up becoming a deal where the tire market changed in the middle of all this right at the beginning of this two where the key for content owners is have a direct relationship with the consumer. It's what you see happening in retail. You see happening, you know that basically middleman are getting moved out of the picture and the publishers were the content owners. So I figured what we really needed to do if we could be the group that figures out how to help them build this relationship with the consumer, something none of them had they all work through other people that had the real relationships and they were always one step removed. So we said, you know, because we're noncommercial we don't have to own the relationship with ought to be the only people that have a relationship with a person that uses are out. Normally, if we were commercial, we'd be super concerned about controlling in owning and being the only once that that's our value. That's what we own. That's our asset. Instead, we said, what if. We're willing to share that with you. We go out and do all the work to find the customer. They're reading the bible and what we're gonna do is that what they want to download the n. IV version of the bible, they're just simply it'd be presented with an opportunity that they would be willing to share their Email address with you, the publisher and nothing hidden from the consumer. Everything's up board and the decision of our users are making to do this. And when they agreed to do that, we're now sending you a very qualified lead three, two Bill relationship with that customer. And so we've now done that to the tunes of tens of millions of people that we built direct consumer relationships with these publishers and for them, that's something that they had to go do that on their own that they would spend a ton of money trying to find that one user that is valuable, utes interested in their products in their other products. So that's what it looks like today. It started off with us just basically saying, trust us, let's work really hard. We're going to try to demonstrate through sharing that. Relationship the best we can with you, but over time to make it fluid to make an even easier more empowering. We literally just made the direct connection between the customer and the publisher knots how we solve the problem. Gee, I just made it note. This is for our audience. Tell me if I've got this right? I'm listening taking notes. I think when we see a crazy idea and we believe in a crazy idea, we gotta go pitch that crazy idea if you can show crazy value than the crazy ideas, no longer crazy. And I think that's essentially what happened here. All right. Yeah, no, that's true. And I think the other thing is we were focused on scale. And so whenever you see something's got momentum, people think are willing to to come on board because they're afraid of missing out. Yeah, momentum. Tremendous momentum momentum was a big, a big factor in it, but it's really reshaped a lot of, I mean, we're not the only people, you know the contributed to this, but we certainly were catalyst for the bible publishing industry as a whole is really pretty progressive today as a whole in apart. Because of this and these moves that they made versus some of the other sides of the publishing industry. And so it's kind of a remarkable story of how it all came together but the you're absolutely right. It's it's kind of that the crazy in his seven sort of works, you know, really, I, I real quick because there's so much more I want to cover with you from leadership and some other things, but I want to go back to that story. You took us to the, I think you said two thousand seven and you got it up and going, and I'm sure you're dealing with other constraints, but there was a point where you had to look at it and go no one's using it, and we're going to have to figure out how to interrelate innovate, whatever it is, create all those things together. I'm just curious what you learned about that that you can pass onto our audience. Like I said, we're not afraid to try things and recognize that. Sometimes things fail. They just don't work. The problem we had here was we built what we wanted to build. It may not have been perfect made. There's always more things we could have added and wanted to do. But the truth was the core idea of what we were trying to save. We built that and and launched it in September of two thousand seven. So a few months in, you know, we were fortunate to have friends, you know, different organizations that are willing to promote it in a, we had a little bit of reach ourselves as a church, so we promoted it. So we didn't have a problem of getting audience to. We got into it. The problem is that went on its came to it. They just kind of like Galit's Tut's. Interesting and the distinct come back. You know, it wasn't. It wasn't something that kept their attention and says, we really begin to dig into it. We realized that it's just fundamentally not. We weren't really engaging people inscription in new meaningful way. The fundamental idea was flawed. Like it just simply the way we did it. The it was either argue might be too early. There's lots of arguments, but nonetheless it just simply wasn't working and we can tell even ourselves, like if you're trying to use your own product and you don't really see the value in it after he built it and started to use it. That's the problem of fundamental problem. It. With it. And if we thought that like a few tweaks would just all that was needed, you know, just tweak here or tweak it there. We just didn't think that was. It didn't feel that's where it was. You know, we felt like it was close enough to what we're aiming for that it just really our aim was off. You know where we needed to try. And so we're not afraid to shut things down in January of two thousand eight. We'd kind of reached that conclusion and we were gonna shut the website down and just move on and focus on other things because we've got plenty of other stuff to focus on. And boy always liked to do like a bit of a failure assessment understand the why. Why did not work? What went wrong, what could we learn there? Anything we can learn from this? And one of the things that we reprocessing was that one of the dynamics was that having on our computer this website on our computer, we were using our computers, less and less and our computers were not too different than our physical bibles in that they were kind of in particular places like our office, you know, or you know, at home off. This or something. And our blackberrys were a new device for spec than blackberries were with us everywhere. And we were using our blackberrys more and more, but our website was not at all design. I mean to work on a a simple blackberry screen. And so we just thought, you know, part of the problem is for this to be something that really engages us in a more regular basis. We have to differentiate it further than like a print bible that sits on her nightstand at home. That's not with us everywhere. We have to figure out which we kind of felt like we'd built another version of that a digital version of print bible in some ways. So it wasn't originally idea, but we just have what if we took that website, we'd built the only had the bible tax already went through the barriers to get access to it. But if we just simply displayed it so that it would work on our blackberry, and when we did that, it was just very simple of like a few remember blackberry in two thousand eight. It was like three or four lines attacks. I mean, it was really, really basic screen. And as simple as laws, and it was just profoundly effective like we use the bible and read it, use it in places we had not insipid more regularly or consistently the whole original idea, the novelty of what we were doing on the website. We kind of ignored all that the features and things that we cared a lot about. We just simply made it. So you could read the bible in your phone. And when that happened, we saw the traffic go up to the website from people using our blackberries and we love data. We love to kind of look understand housework in. We could tell as working for us. And so that became kind of the real shift. And we realize that we start realizing we're really onto something and and it was working. Okay. A want you to talk about first mover advantage because I love the phrasing of that you, you got him real fought behind what that is. And I think we got enough of the backstory so far really understand how you've version is a great example of the first mover advantage. Yes. So in early two thousand eight, I think is maybe spring of two thousand. Thousand eight were starting to notice this website on our blackberries working and apple announces that they're making it possible to develop apps for this new phone call the iphone that had been out for a few months and that even more portly they're going to build an app store where you could download these apps like one place where everybody was going to be focused that had an iphone to download apps for their phone. So I looked at what we saw our data that it was act like the mobile bible was actually working in connecting on our our blackberries. I just thought we've got to try to build an app for the iphone, see if it's possible for us to get it in this app store when it launches. Now we had no idea how to build an out for an iphone. We'd never done that. The books on it had no idea who could we found a nineteen year old on our team that loved apple, and that was about the only requirements you had back in two thousand eight to build up as the find some of its nineteen loves apple, and and then that was all you needed. And, and so again. Eight. Oh, he had a hit a full-time responsibility at the church, but we just kinda did a nights and weekends kinda project where we just said, let's try to build this up. We now we know what we're going forward. Just go for simple initially, a simple bible reading app, but you pick different versions, but it would just work as on an iphone. So we built this app submitted to apple and our surprise and July of two thousand eight with the app store launched. We were among the first two hundred ops over available the day that the ups store launched, which we didn't know at the time that was going to mean, but we were aiming for that because we just felt like it was super important for us to try to take advantage of the first in this opportunity, and that's what it was. We're the only bible up, of course that was among this I two hundred. But the key though is that we had all of these tens of thousands. I can't remember even how many I funds or out at the time, but there are a lot of iphones at art have been sold. They were all looking at this one place to download out in the bible was among those group of Apso. So. We were able to see a quick result from people install on the app that very first weekend. Yeah. So if you got something don't wait. The idea here is you get out there. I it has it. We're not talking about addition. We're talking about multiplication with exponents and I don't even know what I'm saying anymore, but it's big, right? I mean, that's the whole point. Yeah, no, absolutely. Because we, we'd never dissipated. What the numbers would look like. We saw we saw eighty three thousand people the very first weekend, install the app. If you'd asked me back then you know beforehand. Like if you said Bredon number down, I might have written down, fifty sixty thousand for the whole year. You know, might have been like as the big huge goal. And we saw eighty three thousand three days that came and so that blew our minds is what what was possible. But what what happened because of that first mover advantage, the fact that were out there I was that we were basically able to build off of that momentum very, very quickly. And you know today eighty three thousand. Thousand in people's turned into three hundred and forty plus million devices that have installed the out. But that momentum happened really fast in a in a really came because we were really one of the only one of the few absent were available when it started. Yeah. I know you talk a lot about being nimble, and I think that story, you just told a find in the nineteen year old who loved apple again a constraint, but you went, let's try it. You were nimble, is less just get this thing. Super simple in the app store and boom. How have you and team? I understand there's about thirty people in the team. Now, as you said, three hundred forty million people downloaded the app. How do you stay nimble? It's the number one thing that try to focus on as a leader today I've in it is like, I think you have to fight for nimble nece because every organization, every company I've ever seen as it grows and as you have success, it is extremely natural to get slower than. It's extremely natural to become more set in kind of how you do things in your ability to respond quickly to be able to turn quickly to be able to be dynamic and nimble is compromised. And so so I'm constantly looking for how to fight that tension between the systems that we need to to survive in onto support and the the structure that we need to support what we do and yet sort of forcing or fighting for nimble, nece as nor does Asian. So there's different ways you can do it. What we've done in recent months, we really separated the sort of operational aspect of what we do with the version because we've got millions of people that were supporting and they need sort of consistency, operational consistency. And I've kinda carved out a group of people that are helping us being Dimbleby by the have no operational responsibilities. They're not going to get sucked into the vortex of the operational needs, but rather are focused on pursuing new opportunities. They're looking at kind of what's happening today. Okay. What's happening tomorrow? What we see on the horizon and trying to make quick adjustments about new product ideas, new ways we can change, but it's not as simple as like a signing, a responsibility for an humbleness, think holistically. We have to kind of continue to look for where can we fight for speed? And that's been a heavy emphasis. I mean, our story has been about moving fast, following momentum, staying nimble, and really emphasizing speed over even accuracy for that matter. Like we don't have to be right about the future all the time. We don't be right and all of our predictions if we could just be really fast. Yeah, you can fix things that are broke fast. You can change direction when you realize that it's not working fast if your quick. But if you're slow at all you pretty much have to be a fortune teller and be out there saying, this is exactly what's going to happen five years from now, and we saw come in and we, we just hit it perfectly and I just don't who those people are. I'm not one of them. You know, I feel like the best way for us to get there is to just focus very. Very, very much on speed. It doesn't come natural. Nothing gets faster on its own. Everything gets slower by default has been my experience. And so as a leader, it's like, it's, it's always looking for where we can fight for speed and I want you to speak to that. So to keep that nimble nece you said I fight for it. That was your your phrase? Yeah. How do you end your leaders create a culture in which let's go speed. Let's go speed. Let's go speed us on worry about mistakes that's counter cultural to us as human beings. I mean, certainly in the American workforce, right? Oh, I'm worried about mistakes. I'm worried about screwing up. I wanna talk about character here. We're talking about functionality. So how do you create a culture where the team goes? Oh, okay. I guess Bobby really means us. I don't need to worry about screwing up. I just wanna try to quickly come up with the best solution, then we'll sit back and reflect. Yeah, I think it's how you handle screw up, says part of it because you can send a message as a leader. When someone makes a mistake that that the team would you told them to do this or not his setting up a system of policy process to ensure that never ever happens again and the cost of that policy of that procedure is feet or even the willingness to try. And so how you handle mistakes as a leader, how you emotionally, you know handle it, how you handle it in your communication? I think is key. I try not perfect at the human as anybody. I get frustrated when things don't go. Well when things don't work out, but I try to make sure that we earn courage in the team members that are involved that were trying to learn from what we can learn from. I don't like repeat mistakes. That's not part of the process. We don't make the same state multiple times were willing to make mistakes, but just making the same dumb mistake over and over again isn't acceptable, but that shows we're not learning anything. So we focused on what we learn, but then we have to kind of in some ways, just disconnect ourselves for the mistake and emotionally move for. They just get past the emotion of it and just say, we've got a press on now as when it comes to fighting for it. That looks like in in conversation in meeting there is a tension. There's always going to be kind of operational systems that are required. It cannot just be chaos in we. We don't have an organization that's full of chaos. There's a difference 'cause you can kind of tip one side of the pendulum and be completely chaotic and have no structure, no systems. That's not what it looks like. We hire people that are good at building structure and systems. I just view me as the other side of that tension. You know, my job is to kind of is to kind of constantly be pressing into our systems, you know to value the fact that they're there, but to kind of always be asking the question isn't necessary. Is there a way we can do this faster? Is there a way we can eliminate an unnecessary layer when it comes to team structure yet? I'm always trying to keep it as lean or thin as possible because extra people seem like a great resource, you know, but it tips over to. Point where it it costs you on speed. It actually slows things down. You know, we were super efficient with what we're doing. We had like three or four people as you add in team, you add add it to leadership structures than to add in certain things that tend to create tension, Cindy great friction is no way to avoid. There's no way to avoid systems. There's no way to avoid these things that are necessary operationally is to manage the tension and as a leader, I feel like Meyer responsibilities to always just make sure that there's a pretension towards speed because if it's not there, if it's not there in me of is not there in some of my leaders, then it will naturally sort of swing to complexity. It will swing to things that slow things down and any lose that number means to have a great organization. You can still have great support. It can still be a great place to work is still be all those things. But what you'll stop doing his innovating, you'll stop leading at some point. You know, you'll lose your position because you haven't had that that nimble nece to the ability to kind of move. Things for our. We started talking about vision. I want to circle back here before we wrap our time and talk about vision, you and I have a mutual friend named Andy who wrote a book called visionary, and it's a beautiful formula for casting vision. I'm not as much curious in how you cast vision Bobby. But I'm curious, how does the vision change to the point of adjustment that's much a wholesale change? Because if we've heard the stories of today and the original vision, it may you may not have seen the numbers, but the vision has come to fruition of what you really did envision back in at TSA line where you were trying to actually maintain your religion in that long line had. So I was curious now you've got mind boggling numbers, three hundred forty million people that have download it. We've mentioned that now we're talking about expanding the growth around the world more languages. I mean, it's flabbergasting and I'm not trying to, you know, flatter you, but it truly is flabbergasting. How do you adjust. The vision, we've had this much success the best way for me to answer it is I've grown even recently to kind of appreciate that there's a difference between being in the lead in leading and a bit of the great part of the story is sort of how quickly it grew in how fast the numbers of grown since then in. So in essence, when it comes to bible apps from the day that the store launched, we've always been in the lead. We've always been the biggest. We've always been number one in not that I'm trying to have a competition against other bible opposite, even among other apps in our category. You know, we've been number one against a mini other apps, and the problem with that is that you can as literally can kind of wake up in feel like you're leading just because you're in the lead. And the reality of it is is that there is a difference between being number one being in the lead and who's leading where this is going next, who's leading us forward into the future who's the leader that I. Wanna be following. And so oftentimes if you're looking ahead of you and you see like, hey, in our market, there's this other company, this other businesses other their way out their head. They're number one, they're the leader in the space while they might be number one. But that doesn't mean that you can't be the leader. You can't be the one that sort of leading what's next for your industry for your line of work for your type of product, whatever it might be. And I think that's encouraging on one hand because it just does it means that if you're behind on the leaderboard doesn't mean that you can't actually be the one that goes sort of figures out how we can leave for the other. The flip side of it though is what we actually always having to address that. Even though we're, the leader may be the leader by a long shot in terms of the number of devices or apple installs, whatever IV that we cannot stop leading. We cannot stop figuring out what the future needs to look like. What's our responsibility? You know, to kind of lead this Ford. And so that's why we're putting time investment. It's worth is. Where a lot of my energy goes personally in, I'm not as involved in the day-to-day operations of what we do as much as I am trying to shape kind of new ideas and things that I think would really kind of carry us Ford or or risky, you know, things that might not work at all kind of back to the homeless where we started in some degree like we're willing to kind of make give a try at this, but have no idea whether it's going to work and we might be a more barest by that failure than others would because there's an expectation now that we know what we're doing, and the truth is at puts a little more skin in the game, you know, because we'll try something might be a really visible failure where we might have been able to hide our failures publicly little bit more before. And so I think that distinction, though, of recognizing that there's a difference between being in the lead and leading is something I feel like drives me to feel like I have to continually push forward in in a main Volve things that we've felt like were fundamental to the vision of it that have to be different to lead us forward in the future humble and put that aside. That that's what it takes ambling to say. Look, you know, we're at to make some fundamental changes to what we thought was really important in for the future because we can see a different future ahead or we can see a different path though we might need to take. So I don't know what it looks like for each person that's that's watching listening, but I'm guessing that they're in one of those two scenarios and maybe a combination of both. You know that whatever they're doing, they may not be the leader, but they still have an opportunity lead or they might be in the lead and still not be leading in words go in and said, just kind of figuring out can answer that question of makes sense. That's vocabulary. Lesson I came up with, but but residence it makes sense. It's what happened to blockbuster, you know, exactly. I mean, I could come up with more examples. Toys r. us of these are big brands that were they were in the lead and they stopped leading. And then we woke up one day we went, oh my gosh, I can't believe toys r. us out of business. How does the biggest toy store in the world, God of business absolutely shops critic. Apple's really incredible. I think this is really important, and here's the other thing for those who want to be in the lead. It will all, you know, we're all competitor. Sure. We want to be number one, but boy, you better be leading on the way up the ladder. Absolutely effect. You have to be leading at some point to get in the lead right or not, you know, original stop. Yeah. The key is when you get there though. Exactly. Don't stop. Is gotta keep on leading. It's not like now that we're number one, we've achieved everything. It's like, no, no, no, it'd be a number one. You might be number one on the list, but that doesn't mean that you have a pass now on leading the what got you there you're going to have to continually do that continually work to do that in. It's tough because you're driven sometimes to to create new when you're not number one. Yes, sometimes that's what those motivators and when you get to the top, sometimes it's really easy. I think to say what were there and you kind of almost sort of believe yourself a little bit more you a little bit more of that confidence that you haven't figured out a pride, you know it'd be. Better way to say it and have to really fight against that. We've got this figured out, we know we're talking about you start to believe the things other people say about you and that I think is really something you have to really work hard to fight against sort of maintaining that humility that says, we don't get a pass on continuing. If we're not just the leader simple because we're number one to keep working at it. We have to keep earning the right to be the leaders biscuit what it means. Let me ask a potentially silly question. We've known each other long time, so you can tell me if it's silly and and the audience will be fine with it. If we're following what you just taught on the the idea of continuing to be leading, even if you're in the lead and what you just call out as a caution it feels like even though were we're in the lead. We as leaders need to put ourselves into some situations where there are some constraints so that we continue to have that might it feels to me like when you get in the lead, the constraints seem to fade a bit right, more resources, marine people, we are living the good life, right? The. Top is down. We're on the Pacific Coast Highway. It feels great winter, the hair and it's like we're no longer who we once were when we got this beautiful thing started, and that's a result of constraints seemed to disappear. Is that a silly question? Like, how do you put yourself in a constraint when you're killing it. Well, that's exactly what you said. I mean, he actually set it in your question all again. What I'm saying? How do you put yourself in a constraint? How do you create constraints answers that often times they have to be artificial constraints in you have to kind of come up with ways because you're right. The problem with success is that if you're not careful, you know the more success that you have. The thing that made you successful though the way they were thinking that led to your success. You stop thinking that way because you don't have to anymore. You don't have that same driver, same motivated that's kinda pushing you to do it. So I think some of it is very much like it's mindset is a huge part of it. What I just mentioned about leading and being in the lead is a mindset shift. It's like, okay, recognize them in the league, but that doesn't make me the leader. So some of the constraint is not sort of recognition. I have to go on, earn this, you know, every every day every month. So the constrain is that time it like I just don't keep it by the fact that I haven't. I lose it almost like like a points with your wife. You know what I mean? I it's the you. You might have earned. Points today, but they all go away at midnight tonight. I got him again tomorrow, you know, it's sort of like that. I don't preach. I've learned the, I've gained the respect to be the leader in a, but I'm no longer had lead, and I had a guy the other day that was very respectful. They were talking about some areas that we pioneered and he used the term. He goes, no, you guys were pioneers in this particular area. And when he said it, it wasn't. It wasn't in any disrespect. It may not even meant it this way. But what I heard it in this wasn't about new version is about a different thing that we worked on it. I heard it. I thought he's basically telling me that we used to be the leaders. And now he's building up on what we did in the past to do it better. And if he went on a hold the whole the whole story, and it was just an indicator to me that he doesn't see us as the leaders anymore. He saw says a group that we were in the lead. So as grip that once led, he referred to as pre are pioneering the space office coming, which and I, for me, that was just like a gut check for me as as like all, you know, this is an example of where I really feel like we gotta do a better job, you know, of leading. So so you're absolutely right. The your success can become kind of your worst enemy, your resources that you gain from success can become your worst enemy when it comes to paving a path forward, but the best you can do is create artificial constraints. You can. And I think just really self-awareness of that notion of the difference between being in the lead and leading is I think, kind of one of the keys. Bobby really good stuff as always great to talk to you and see you. Even though we're not in the same room and I gotta tell you, this is this is really fun to hear the story of something that has literally revolutionized a whole space and has had untold impact around the world. The the behind the scenes story is always encouraging. There's so much here for all of us to walk away with. Thank you so much time and for sharing your story. Thank you for the opportunity. I'm honored to do it. Hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Bobby is a wonderful thinker and I just want to point this out. If you think you got to be the most outlandish personality, you think you've got to be the smartest guy in the room. Well, you don't in Bobby said in the conversation, he doesn't know how to code anything. And yet he's the one that came up with the idea. He's the one that began to assemble people in talent, and now he's still leads a group of people that he would willingly admit are much smarter than him in some ways. Now he's also a lot smarter than they are. So this idea of limiting yourself around an idea that you may not be able to actually pull off that should not hold you back. All right. If you'd love to learn more about what he's doing, you version dot com. That's the website. You heard his talk a lot about just go to the app store and you'll see the bible app and you've version and get the app. That's something that interests you. And even if you've never cracked bible opening day in your life, go check it out. Because you'll see an unbelievably innovative product and how it's changed from the early days where they just put up the bible if you'd like to join us for entree leadership one day. Remember we're going to bring that to you via the internet. You can check out the livestream entreleadership dot com slash Ken. That's where you get your ticket for the event on November ninth, and you're going to get the twenty dollar off discount going to be a lot of fun. So we'd love to either see you live in Phoenix Arizona or join us on the livestream again, entreleadership dot com. Slash Ken to get your ticket and then all of the information that you need to tune in infusion. Soft is costly. Wow, ING entreleadership they treat us so well, and we've seen how they while their customers as well. So when they got us this resource for this episode, I was pretty excited about it. I love this kind of stuff, fifty ways to while your customers. Now this is a worksheet. So again, as with everything infusion soft provide you. You gonna give you practical applications, fifty ways to while your customers. This is going to help you with repeat customers. If you've got a customer who's going, wow, you can promise yourself. They're coming back and they're probably going to bring somebody with them, fifty cost effective ways to while customers. That's what this worksheet is. So go check that out in the infusion. Soft link is in the show notes at entree leadership dot com on behalf of the entire entreleadership team. Thank you so very much for listening. We'll talk with you again very soon. Folks want to make sure that you're aware that we have other great podcasts from Ramsey solutions. Here's a sample of the Chris HOGAN show. I am so excited to be able to talk to you all weekend and week out. We're gonna talk about your money, your life, your dreams and your goals. You know why? Because I'm your coach, whether we're talking about building wealth, paying off your home, early, investing paying for college and guess what? How to become an everyday millionaire. We're going to focus on taking your calls because you matter to me together, we can do this. This is the Chris HOGAN show. If you'd like to hear full episodes, just searched the Chris, HOGAN show in apple podcasts or go to Chris HOGAN three sixty dot com.