Taking Lives: Dr. Michael Swango
True. Crime contains disturbing content related to real life crimes. Medical information is opinion based on facts of a crime and should not be interpreted as medical advice or treatment. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome crime burry. I'm Jill and I'm dick before we get started today. I just wanna mentioned everyone about last week's tobacco. Why I don't know that was a deductible. Well, it woke me up in a panic in the morning. Sure. So if you listened to the podcast right away in the morning or if your podcast app. Just automatically downloaded it. The first audio file that went out was incorrect. And it was on ended actually was worse than on ended. It was a mess. So if you didn't like it and would like to listen to the real one all you have to do is delete it in reloaded in your podcast app in I apologize. I just messed up. That's all sweep the provision perhaps. Yeah. It was a long episode. So it was a lot of work was almost two hours. But anyway, I apologized for that. And let's move on with today's episode. Okay. This is about a doctor. Yes, they know. So hopefully, you'll give us some insight. I'm hoping the case of physician Michael Swango, not only exposed the dark side of a man who had taken an oath to do. No harm. It also opened our eyes to a professional environment where doctors accepted, the word of fellow physicians over the word of nurses and patients. Even as there was evidence of grossness behavior piling up Michael grew up in Quincy, Illinois, and he graduated as valedictorian at the Quincy Catholic boys high school, he served in the Marine Corps and he received an honorable discharge. He then attended Quincy college followed by southern Illinois University School of medicine. His troubles were I noticed in medical school. Although he was a brilliant student. He preferred to work as an ambulance attendant rather than concentrate on his studies, even at that young age, she had an odd fascination with dying patients, Michael Swaine goes patients, often ended up coding or suffering life threatening emergencies and several did die on expectedly. So join us at the quiet and today for a true story that actually is stranger than fiction. We're calling it taking lives the crimes of Dr Michael Swango removes beard today or good, Ohio beer. I heard lots of choices. I think Ohio. Was one of the first states where he was killing people. So I picked plus I wanted to do this beer first time, I had it was mule Dover to me by our friend. Dave, it's called hop juju imperial IP from fat heads brewery love the name anyway, a great name. So this beer is a big old imperial IP or you'd like to call the WPA copper-colored big, huge Whitehead. Nice lacing one of those pretty beers. It has a citrus fruit aromas and tropical fruit and pine. And then in the taste some lime some grapefruit enter the pith of the grapefruit that bitter, more bitter part. Yeah. Yeah. Little papaya. There's the tropical fruit and some pine massive beer the nicely bidder. So you gotta be a hop head to like this one. I think so you have not one of those new fruity ones. This is more of a traditional good tasting beer. Okay. Just as a funniest side. I always thought that that bitter taste was the insecticides on the grapefruit that made it tastes that way. Oh, no. Yeah. I did. But now, you're educating me. Sure. All right. My pleasure. You've done it a lot. Let's open the beer. Okay. At the quiet end today, quite a few people around. Hopefully will meet some interesting people. I mean, that's my favorite part of sitting at the bar. Is you meet new people, and they're interesting or bring the whole point. Yeah. I always go off when I go to places in those TV's all over the place. He don't like that are don't like that. I wanna sit at the bar and have conversations with people. Well, that's the thing. I mean, I'm a big TV watcher, really? But I don't like that it interferes with conversation. And that's why we don't have one in our bedroom because I feel like it interferes with the marital relationship, not to go into any more detail by think a TV in the bedroom is a bad idea. I made you blush. You got me there. Okay. All right. Why don't you? Go ahead and start our story down here at the quiet end. Okay. Michael was the second son of Muriel and John Swango hick sailed at the private Catholic boys high school. He attended. He had brothers Bob, and John they attended public schools. But Michael went to the Catholic boy school because his parents considered him to be gifted. He was a model student made the honor roll each year, he took an unusual interest though in the holocaust which had been covered in his world. History. Course now that might have been early red flag. I could've been, but let's be honest. A lot of us are fascinated by horrible things that doesn't mean we like it. All right. I'll give you that. But yeah, it's something to consider. He was also a talented pianist, and he spent evenings playing classical music for his mother. So here's another guy that was his mother's favourite. He can do no wrong. She would eventually become estranged from her husband who was quite an colic. But in her mind, Michael could do no wrong. So we might be looking at another golden boy. You know, she was in denial as it turned out. I mean, we'll see this. Yes. Yep. So in his nineteen seventy-two yearbook picture, there's Michael and his band uniform smiling with thick blind hair. His ambition in the yearbook was to be an Illinois state trooper, but as class valedictorian he was sought after by top colleges he decided to attend Millikin university. Just a small private liberal arts school in Decatur Illinois about a three hour drive from Quincy and he received a full tuition scholarship in music. Now as he had in high school, he excelled at Milliken Ernie nearly perfect grades during his first two years during his first year a girlfriend broke up with him. It typically warrant a sports jacket the class, but after the break-up he began to dress in military fatigues, he then painted his car in camouflage greens. So no friend asked him about this. He said he planned to join the military, and he was fascinated by guns. So maybe the break up with the girlfriend set something off in him. I'm not sure. Yeah. It seems like it's kind of a moment in his life. Yeah. Like he can't have reacted to that. In a certain way. And about this time is when he first mentioned his interest in taking pre med courses. He began to show an intense interest in car crashes, and he would save gory photos in a scrapbook by the end of his sophomore year. He was spending more and more time by himself and that summer he left school and he enlisted in the marines. So Michael finished basic training at the marines. Boot camp in San Diego where he was trained as a rifleman and he earned the designation of a sharp shooter in nineteen seventy six he received an honorable discharge when he returned to Quincy after the discharge he was very fit and lean and he was carrying himself with more confidence. He announced then to his family that he wanted to become a doctor, and this, of course, was something that really pleased his mother she had worked as a medical secretary. So she really looked up to physicians. He then enrolled in pre med courses at the local community college. And then he had no difficulty getting admitted to the Quincy college for the following fall. With his near perfect grades at the more competitive Milliken as well as his exceptional high school record. He must've been one of the colleges top applicants but still after he was admitted he did make a decision to embellish his records on a form. He submitted to the colleges public information office he falsely claimed that he had received both LeBron's bronze star into purple heart when he was a marine. So I don't know why he felt compelled to do that because he certainly would have been accepted anyway. Who would have been right? But this was this was a compulsion in him. Yes. Always had to appear better. He did. So he was kind of a path logical liar in that respect. You certainly was now Michael abandoned music and became deeply involved in science classes, he had a double major in chemistry and biology, but in contrast to high school, he wasn't involved in any extracurricular activities, he did begin working part time as an orderly at blessing hospital in Quincy and became a certified emergency medical technician EMT during his senior year, he wrote a paper on the poisoning murder of a winning Bulgarian writer living in exile. In london. He was fascinated by the murder, which was poisoning by rice in that took four days to kill the writer so very fascinated with poison and during his senior year, he took the MCAT the Medical College admission test. And he applied to several medical schools. He graduated summa cum laude in nineteen seventy nine. Anyone the American Chemical society's award for economic excellence competition for admission to any accredited American Medical school in nineteen seventy nine was very intense. And it had been since the baby boom generation began graduating from college in the late sixties this kind of like that now too. Isn't it very competitive or heart? Think is way worse now might be her. When when I applied to medical school didn't seem that difficult to get admitted he at you were like the perfect kid on that. But now, it's almost like you have to have published papers. Yeah. Need to really be on the ball. You do. It's major in the mid school. I always joke about how I couldn't have gotten into medical school. These this day. That's not true though, it might not be. But I certainly hadn't published papers or anything. Well, I mean that wasn't something people were doing. I'm sure if that was the thing you would have done it. 'cause you did the thing you were supposed to do. That's you ROY guarded mood. Okay. But demand for doctors was strong and lucrative. Careers were almost guaranteed for the graduates, plenty of applicants with good records were rejected from every medical school that they applied to and many were even going to foreign countries. Like, Mexico was a common one. Besides needing outstanding grades in the pre med curriculum and the high MCAT scores applicants had to sit for a personal interview in which their maturity their commitment and their aptitude for medicine were judged. So Michael's mother Muriel was proudly telling family members that Michael had been accepted at several medical schools. But his classmates had speculated that Swango had been admitted from the waiting list because he moved into the dorms late along with students who had been admitted at the very last minute through the southern Illinois. That's the one he he went to. Yeah. So they guessed that Michael hidden performed well in the admissions interview because his grades were really good. And they all wondered what he would have answered when he was asked why he wanted to become a doctor because Swango had never mentioned to his classmates any interest in patients or helping or anything that most. Doctors would say they didn't have the stock answers ready. No, he was different certainly was now in medical school para follow Trie fascinated Swango pathology includes toxicology the study of poisons so that that might be tip off. Wei fascinated that's up his alley. Who study habits weren't very good because he's continued working for the ambulance service that he had started doing in college and is frequently unavailable in many ways, ambulance work seemed to be a priority to Swango. One of the first clinical sinement that medical students had was to take histories and perform physicals or h and peas as you call them on the hospital patients students would interview patients record their medical histories in do physical exams, then they would post the results on the patient's charts. So depending on the patient the procedure could take anywhere from half hour to ninety minutes or even longer. Doing adult medicine, and these people have empty problems, and it took me seven hours wants to do a history and physical as a student. Well, yes, what I say. Well, his classmates, though, they observed that swing was completing his entire rounds in less than an hour said X is that pretty extrordinary unheard of sometimes spending as little as five minutes with one patient. You can maybe get away with that as an attending physician, but a medical student you have to cover every base. So you tend to be far more thorough than anyone else? Oh, it was the same thing in nursing school like when you were a student who had index cards with every medication every side effect. Yeah. So that is extraordinarily that. He only took five minutes. He certainly wasn't doing what he was supposed to do not even close in. At least one case another student said that Swango had faked the entire right up which isn't surprising when you think of five minutes, we might have. And this claim triggered more concern about Swango with his classmates in their third year rotation students can choose their area of specialization, and it came as a surprise to many in the class when Swango. Concentrated his courses in neuro surgery. Now neuro-surgery is one of medicine's most demanding and highly paid specialties. All right. You're right. So competition for the internships, and residencies was very intense wasn't something that people expected this guy to go into know who's classmates and a lot of the physicians who taught him thought he was lazy uninspired person and weird and weird. Yeah. But there is a neurosurgeon on the faculty. Dr Lau where keizer who raved about Swango. He never criticize mangoes allege sloppy habits indifference to patient care and the two became inseparable. Swing a go the neurosurgeon when he made rounds and would go to surgeries Swingle even persuaded the nursing staff to page him on his ambulance pager whenever they learned that one of the neurosurgeons patients was about to be admitted. That way swang was usually on the scene before the surgeon, and even before sometimes the patients themselves now, of course, his eagerness made a good impression on where why keizer who believed to very pleasant and hardworking, and he thought swang goes patient write ups were excellent. I think he was pretty good at faking it while sure and you can put a whole bunch of bullshit into the right up, and unless the doctor the attending checks the facts, it looks like you've done a great job. And this is third year. So I think there would be some trust in him. You have to trust someone at that point. You must think they've done okay to get to the third year of medical school. But Dr case or was one of several doctors in private practice who also worked as clinical instructors, and he was very popular with students and respected in his field. The fact that he likes Swango really went along way to quash student concerns about swing goes competence. So this helped swing go out a lot or throughly would you've got someone on your side in a high place. Thinking this geyser lazy person not doing the job that you gotta highly regarded attending praising him. Sure. Yeah. Looks good said during the third year of medical school students were having much more contact with patients swing goes classmates. Notice that swing seemed very interested in even maybe preoccupied with the sickest patients the hospital had a large blackboard where they wrote patients names and the treatment information, and when a patient that Swango had seen died he wrote died and capital letters across the person's name other students found this distasteful almost as those Ouango was celebrating the deaths. So when EFI walls kindly patient that Swingle had been treating for an injury died. Suddenly after getting a visit from Swango he went ahead and scrawled died over her name. And when he was asked by another student, if he didn't feel bad that the woman had died. His answer was quite alarming. He said, no, that's. Just what happens that's feeling now. So swing Osun got this nickname double-o Swango like 007 licensed to kill and it was dark humor. But there was a lot of truth to it. We'll see of course, we certainly will so working with the emulates company would bring swing go into regular contact with victims of car crashes heart attacks and violent crime that was fellow paramedics many of whom foot highly of his work couldn't help it notice his unusual fascination with violent death. The hit all seen scrapbooks. They often so cutting out articles while waiting for an ambulance. Call. Now once a co worker asked him why he clipped and saved the articles Swango said if I'm ever accused of murder the scrapbooks will prove I'm not mentally competent. This will be my defense. That's pretty weird. It's very weird. And of course, they took it as a joke, but there's a lot of truth to it. I suppose he really liked to play games by hinting at his psychopathic tendencies when out of work security guard shot up McDonald's in California, nineteen eighty four killing twenty one people Swango watched on CNN, and he told his co workers every time I think of a good idea. Someone beats me to it. Now, the other paramedics hoped he was kidding. For years. He kept scrapbooks of newspaper clippings about grizzly car crashes in violent crimes he was also fascinated by Ted Bundy, and he expressed his happiness when OJ Simpson was found not guilty with maybe a creepy kind of self awareness. He wants said sometimes I feel. All I have an evil purpose in my life through words. But unfortunately, no one really took him seriously. But without his fixation on violent death. It would be hard to understand why he commuted during his first year medical school to work these twenty four hour shifts at an EMT job that pages ten cents an hour of the minimum wage needs think he'd be studying. Yeah, he enjoyed it. It was the thrill in it for him. Yeah. And Swango told his fellow paramedics that he could handle the schedule because he lived on only two to three hours of sleep her night. His co workers in the ambulance service were mazes. Swango would sleep for about thirty minutes. Then jump up and work for twelve straight hours often manic with energy, but his work on the ambulance did take toll when day he was so angry that he kicked in a cabinet door in the kitchen area, the engines headquarters and to know in surprise at least not to my surprise, his long hours also affected his performance as a medical student. Well, how could it not? I mean, most people in medical school. Just go to medical school or exactly yeah. And some of his fellow students notice he was poorly prepared careless and negligent it rush from one class to another interrupting his work whenever his pager offering ambulance run still when you got ready to prepare for internships and residencies postgraduate training. Swing ahead. A glowing letter of recommendation from Dr walk as her which he sent to about ten teaching hospitals. Even keizer was surprised putting go told him when Swango told him that he had been accepted for prestigious internship in neuro surgery at the university of Iowa, hospitals and clinics in Iowa City. So is post graduate career is secured. So he pretty much gave up any pretense of being interested in his medical studies anymore. He really indulged his sick facination at this point with car crashes and other emergencies Elliott left was this eight week rotation in obstetrics gynecology. This was a requirement, of course. Most students completed before their last year, and that they had to pass an order to graduate. But rather than taking OBGYN early Swango had opted for a more difficult surgery and medicine rotation. And he was already concentrating on neurosurgery students were also required to attend OBGYN surgeries like c sections in hysterectomies, but Swango never showed up all examinations in the rotation were conducted orally any missed most of those two. So the chief was rightfully concerned by swing goes complete disregard of the school's requirements. When she tried to locate him she was told that he was working as an EMT net kinda shocked her. She also heard that he had been banned from any direct patient contact on the ambulance, but she didn't ask why I don't know why she didn't when she finally contacted Swango. She asked him to do a history and physical on a patient who is scheduled to have a C section that day. So she saw him enter the patient's room, and he left just ten minutes later. She was surprised when he turned in really impressive three page right up on the patient. She visited the patient to ask about swing goes. Visit and learned that the woman had barely talked to swing go. He and done a physical exam at all either. So the chief resident took her findings to the OBGYN faculty, and they had a meeting to consider his status. The faculty members were appalled and angry at his misconduct as well as his dishonesty, which was really posing a threat to a patient's health. So they made the decision to fail swing go which meant that he wouldn't graduate in his class and that didn't sit well with him. No. So when he learned that he was gonna fill it will be GYN and wouldn't graduate. He was enraged. He hired a lawyer and administrators at the school were worried that he would sue the school. Then Dr Joaquin came to swang goes defense saying that he had been an outstanding student and the chargers he was Lazier hadn't done his. Assignments not believable swing professor pathology tax college became so worked up over the injustice of failing Swango that he literally cried. So he was able to get people on his side when he really wanted to. He was then a few students. Few his classmates also argued that the fail Swango was too severe punishment. It was noted that while medical schools reject hundreds and thousands of applicants they almost. Never expelled them. Once they've been admitted, well, I guess the experience of medical school ordinarily creates kind of a strong bond. So it was kind of stunning. When a group of swing goes classmates wrote a letter to the faculty stating that he was incompetent. He hadn't progressed it all during their years together. They said he showed no interest in the patients and his attitude toward medical education really seemed to border on contempt. None of this group felt that they would ever want swing to be their doctor. He was not in their view capable. A functioning as an intern. So time was running out. And they felt that he really needed to be stopped before he was out practicing, and that's unusual right? Because usually mid students stick together. Sure. Do just like doctors usually stick together and Beck each other up. So for this to happen, any go must've been really on the outs with classmates had to be super over the ad trite. Absolutely. So here we have kind of a problem, don't we? He's got a group of classmates it Phillies incompetent, his gut the OBGYN rotation that he failed miserably, but he has his supporters. Yes, doctors and a few students high up supporters, these doctors were high up, so I think their opinion probably mattered more than the group of students to be honest. Yep. Now, the student progress committee met may nineteen eighty two with ten committee members to students and faculty. In preparation for the hearing, the OBGYN chief resident had gone to the patient files to retrieve swang report on this is Aaron section patient, but had disappeared and it occurred to her that other reports by Swango had been suspicious. Also, she looked for some of them, but they also missing. So she reported this to the committee. She also testified about swang performance in the OBGYN rotation including absences, and presenting the evidence that he had fabricated at least one patients history and physical and other nations surfaced, including his work as an EMT and his facination with violence. But there was no reference to any suspicious patient deaths or to the double o Swango nickname. Nobody brought that up in the meeting. No. And then Swango himself appeared in his own defense. He seemed earnest and charming, but he denied that he had failed to examine any patients or removed any files he denied plagiarizing. Or fabricating this Zarian patience -ation p expanded hid no choice, but to moonlight as an EMT because his father died earlier that year, and he was the sole support of his mother and two brothers. Now. Most members of the committee, especially the two student members were unmoved when even called Swango bald faced liar. But if toxicology professor came to his defense, he sympathize with spangles need to support his family and said other students in the class or unfairly picking on him because he was different. So the decision to dismiss a student would require unanimous vote. Eight members voted to expel him one abstained and one voted to give them another chance. So he graduated there were negotiations between the colleges, lawyers and Swain goes lawyer. And there was a compromise. That had to be reached though, he wouldn't be allowed to graduate with his class. But he wouldn't be expelled either. He was. Required to repeat his OBGYN rotation. Any was also given assignments from some of the other faculties strictest professors in other specialties if he passed these assignments he would be allowed to graduate. If not he would be dismissed so at this point, he became a model medical student. He repeated the OBGYN rotation attended all the required surgeries in oral examinations in completed all of his assignments where one of the other fall-outs from this was that the hospital I was city rescinded his internship. So he had to scramble around right, right? And the director of the department of neurosurgery at Ohio State University in Columbus offered Swango a residency in neurosurgery, pending the successful completion of years, internship, in general surgery. So that year Ohio State one of the most prestigious residency programs in the country had received about sixty applicants for its neurosurgeon. Gery residents program and had invited twelve for personal interviews swang was one of them. And he was the only student offered a position. So at that says to me is he was really good at bullshitting. Yeah, he had to be. So he did graduate in April of nineteen eighty three and got a diploma in the mail, his mom. Miriam was spreading the good news of his graduation and his acceptance at Ohio State to family members shortly after his graduation. He was fired by American ambulance company. He was already on probation because he'd had violent outbursts, but he responded to an emergency. Where a patient who was in acute pain in having a heart attack was gasping for air and his instructions were to administer any emergency treatment called for and bring the patient in the ambulance to the nearest hospital. But instead he made the patient walk to his own car. And he told the patients family to drive him to the hospital themselves the family. He called the ambulance company and complained his behavior, of course, was medically unsound, and it was a clear violation of the rules. And he had no explanation for it. So he was fired. Or he must have been very fortunate that the patient didn't die his very easily could have put him in deep trouble. Yes. Now at a high oh state University Medical Center Swango joining elite group of medical school graduates for his first assignment as a surgical intern. As first rotation was in the emergency room didn't take long for some of his shortcomings to surface every doctor in charge of a surgical rotation. Evaluates the entrance at the conclusion of the rotation. Dr Ronald Ferguson, who's the doctor in charge of transplant surgery. Oversaw swang goes work for mid October into mid November. And he decided he was going to fail Swango because he didn't believe he was competent to practice medicine. Swaying. Also learned. At least one other of supervising physicians with remarks showed a fascination with Nazis in the holocaust. Some of the residents spent far more time with Swango than the attending physicians. Did also complained to the doctors on the FEC lay. That Swango is weird that covers a whole host of things doesn't it weird? They were more specific. But nothing really came of. It is the problem. So while making rounds residents give interns tasks and then they critique their performance whenever they criticize Swango he would drop to the floor and do push-ups then he could do hundreds of them. Remember, he had been a marine. So it was like he was still in the marines in this was his self imposed punishment. But this didn't seem appropriate for a doctor making rounds in the hospital. He was asked to stop. But he refused, and he continued this behavior. Just mystifies me. You're making rounds. So there's medical students interns residents, tending physicians may be a fellow in the program. So there's a flak of doctors doctors in training making rounds and to have one guy suddenly dropping give twenty five push-ups that's beyond strange. It really is. And it's just the beginning things get stranger, but let's take a minute here. Just to talk about our sponsors, then we'll get back to it. Okay. Today's episode is sponsored by ADT real protection when it comes to something as important as family safety. You deserve real protection from ADT for me. Real protection means the nation's number one smart home security provider is standing by. And there for you. When you need them. Real protection means having a safe and smart home with everything from video doorbells. Surveillance cameras smart locks lights carbon monoxide in smoke detectors. In a system that is custom designed to fit your lifestyle in setting up customisations to do things like lock the doors and set the thermostat when you leave reproduction means staying safe on the go in the car, or when your kids are at school with the t go app and an S O S button. Real protection means eighteen thousand employs safeguarding. You real protection means direct connections with first responders, no matter how you define safety for you, your family or your business. He d- is there. Eighty real protection. Visit ADT dot com forward slash podcasts. To learn more about how ADT can design and install a secure smart home. That's just for you. Take coloring your hair to the next level with one of my favorite beauty products in that's Madison Reed hair-color for as long as I can remember there were two options for coloring, my hair the outdated at home color, the stuff you pick up at the grocery store. Or the drugstore. You know, what I mean or the considerable financial and time investment of going to the salon on a regular basis. We're busy women, and you shouldn't have to be rich to have multi tonal hair. Coloring that's crafted by the masters. What makes Madison Reed color unique is that it's crafted by the master colorist who know how to blend nuances of light dark cool in warm to create over forty five gorgeous, multi, tonal shades. You do deserve gorgeous professional hair-color that's delivered right to your door for less than twenty five dollars. Now, many Madison Reed clients have commented on how their new hair hair-color has improved their lives. And I readily cut myself among these clients Madison Reed gives me gray covering game changing blonde hair that I can maintain at home looking like I came from the salon. I really thought it was chained to these monthly salon visits for life. And I never thought I'd color my hair at home again. But mad. Listen read is truly liberated me. My hair is shiny and healthy. And I get this quality nuanced color with the convenience of home delivery, which is my favorite. That's why I'm happy to recommend medicine retour listeners, and you can join me in finding your perfect shade by going to Maddison dash Reebok com. True crime Burri listeners also get ten percent off plus free shipping on their first colored kit by using our code brewery, that's code brewery at Madison dash Reed dot com. And I'd like to take a moment here to let everyone know about a new pied cast now available from park cast. It's called hostage, and it has fascinating topics as you may know behind every hostage situation. There is a complex dynamic between hostage captor and negotiated. Well, yeah, just say the wrong thing or make a wrong move in the hostages life is in jeopardy. Talk about pressure. I mean, really there isn't enough Xanax in the world for me every Thursday. The park networks podcast hostage tells these complicated stories behind the world's most intense hostage situations, and the people inside them hostage explores the psychological tactics used in hostage negotiations and what the human brain does. When a person is held captive. I really love their kind of in-depth examination. You can hear how hostage situations transpire, and what strategies negotiators employ to find a peaceful solution. Well, yeah. But. Fortunately, things don't always end peacefully and hostage. Highlights the moments in history when things did go tragically wrong. In addition to the techniques that have saved lives be sure to catch the astonishing two part episode on Kevin Phillips of the MVP Mirsky, Alabama and check out how it all began with a thrilling three part of sewed on the Patty Hearst kidnapping search for and subscribe to hostage wherever you listen to podcasts. And please don't forget it really helps to rate and review. Let's get to our story. So in Swango was first hired no-one from Ohio State called anyone at his med school to ask why he graduated you're late. Remember he had failed the OBGYN rotation. So he headed take that into some other Simon snorted graduate. So he did graduate a year later than his classmates and supposedly he told his mom that it was a computer glitch that caused him to graduate late. And she believed it, of course, because he could do no wrong. That's right. No. No one seemed to have noticed that he should have graduated a year earlier than he actually did. But with a negative report from Dr Ferguson and other comments about swang goes behavior and attending physician called the associate dean for medical education. He was told that they should have seen warning signs and swang goes letter from the dean still knowing seem to consider terminating his internship. Not at all. In January nineteen eighty four swinger was warned that he had a failing evaluation from Dr Ferguson that might threaten his residency. The offer of a residency in neurosurgery was contingent on successful completion of the one year, internship, but swing oh did seem appropriately concerned at that point. Sure, he became very charming and humble any asked for strategies to overcome the negative review and continue with this residency. He appealed Dr Ferguson's evaluation to the residency review committee, which was made up of doctors from the surgery department and the committee met later that month to reevaluate him knowing the men time Swango found girlfriend. This was a nurse Rita do mice. The relationship surprise many on the nursing staff because reader, let's face it. She wasn't a catch for a handsome young intern. Plus she was divorced with three young children. She always complained. She worked the night shift got home at seven in the morning. Just as a kids were waking up Rita said. She was never able to get enough sleep which might have been some accounting for her bad moods. Well, yeah, I can see that wouldn't be an easy life. But she really did seem to blossom in a relationship with Swango. She still kept mostly to herself. But she seemed more confident and her overall attitude toward life seemed to improve. Of course, she'd been going through a difficult time, but Swango was very supportive. And she also said he was great with her kids in early February head nurse an Ritchie reported for the morning shift and she was assigned neurosurgery patient named Ruth. Barrick now Ruth was a pleasant elderly woman who had been admitted to the hospital. Couple of weeks before she had fallen in hitter headed home and suffered a cerebral hematoma. So her condition was serious, but it never been considered life threatening until she suffered a respiratory arrest. In nearly died on January thirty first just after swang goes appeal of this negative valuation had been rejected. No one told an Ritchie what had happened. But on January thirty first another nurse named Deborah. Kennedy hit given Ruth Barrick her breakfast and assessor, and she seemed to be doing. Well, she was sitting up in bed. She was talking and responding appropriately around nine forty five AM that morning, Dr Swango had come into a room, and he told Deborah Kennedy. I'm going to check on her. Deborah thought this was weird because the doctors rounded early like around six thirty and they didn't return unless there was a problem. But you know, he's the doctor. He's the boss so she left him in the room with Ruth Barrick alone. Yes. About twenty minutes later. Deborah turn to check on Ruth Swango. Gone in the patient seemed to be asleep. But when she got closer to the patient. She noticed that she was barely breathing and she was a bluish color. So Deborah did what you do. She called a code over the intercom and doctors came rushing to the room Swango was the first one to respond, but others to began working on this resuscitation and after forty five minutes her vital signs had stabilized and she was transferred to the ICU. She recovered and she returned to a regular hospital room. But then on February six in Ritchie was giving the same patient Ruth bath. The patient was alert talking. Cheerful and seemed to be recovering but Ritchie noticed that her central Venus pressure was low in the central line when explain that a little bit for lay people see VP line. Yeah. Well, it's it's a land. It's put in usually rounded into the jugular vein, and you had Vance a catheter into the Vena Cava the big. Vessel that takes blood back to the heart. Now what you can do with the line. Like, this is you can monitor pressure blood pressure, basically, and you could administer meds too. So to be told that the pressure in the CV line looked low might mean that the patient needed fluid or something like that that she was dehydrated. Okay. Let's she called doctor check the line. And then she left the room to check her other patients in a few minutes later Swango entered the room, and she remembered feeling relieved that an MD had responded but time passed and she didn't see Swango come out of the room, which made her think there was a problem with the central line and went back into the patient's room to see if Swango needed some help now, oddly he'd drawn all the curtains around the bed. So neither roommate nor anyone passing the room could see what was happening. This was very odd the nurse peaked in through the curtains and swang was hovering over the patient's chest. And he seems startled by her. She asked him if he needed any help and Swango said, no. So she left the room. Again, then ten minutes later, she peaked in again in asked if he needed any help, and he said, no again, just three minutes later nurse an Ritchie returned open the curtain and looked in. And this time she saw that Swango was using two or three syringes and one was stuck directly into the central line. If Suazo had been using the syringes to clear the line, there should have been some blood in them. But there was no blood in these syringes swing. Oh said he needed, no assistance and Richie left the room again. And a few minutes later. She did see swing leave the room. She assumed that whatever had been wrong with the central line had been corrected and almost immediately. She went into check on the patient. She wanted to check the central line dressing. But she was shocked because Ruth Barrett had turned blue again, she gave a gasp, and then she stopped breathing altogether. So as the resuscitation efforts began the nurse looked up and she sought after Swango he was coolly watching her from the back of the room. Have a weird look on his face doing nothing to help. The patient. So she was trying to give mouth to mouth to the patient. This was years ago. I guess before they had the masks vailable all the time and Swango said to her that is so disgusting other nurses, and doctors rushed in and began chest compressions, but Ruth barrack was dead. The last entry in her progress notes was made by swing go and read patient suffered apparent respiratory arrest. Witnessed by RN. No poss- present code blue called patient did not respond to resuscitative measures pronounced dead at ten forty nine. Dr Joseph Goodman, and family notified Swango, the death certificate cited the cause of death as cardiopulmonary arrest due to cerebrovascular accident, which means that they signed her of his having had a stroke, so an Richie the nurse was appalled. When Swango insisted he wanted personally to convey, the news of the patient's death to her family members. She is almost certain that something Swingle had done. Had killed her still. She never imagined that he might have killed her purpose. She assumed that may be hit accidently allowed an air pocket to enter the central Venus line causing a fatal embolism in the bloodstream. This did sometimes happen, which was one of the reasons only doctors were allowed to adjust centralize, but swang didn't acknowledge any error. And what was he doing with those syringes these question, very good question? Now, these were still in a nurse's mind that afternoon when she responded to an urgent call another room. There was another nurse. Amy more who is with a patient having breathing. Trouble and Swango is also in the room with the patient gasping for breath, Swango ordered the nurse to get a heart monitor. Amy more was stunt using a heart minor would waste valuable time. Those rare for nurse to correct doctor. But the patient's condition suggested that she might have had a pulmonary embolism or blood clot in her lungs. Swang was adamant. Amy more said she could handle the situation. She got the patient to the other floor, which probably saved her life after her shift ended that day nurse, an Richie. Just couldn't get these disturbing events out of her mind, Ruth Barrick. Steph swang goes reaction to it. And how he seemed to be purposely jeopardizing another patient, and she started to consider that this was deliberate. So since she could she got off the highway and drove to her sister's house where she broke down in tears and told her sister about the patient, and then about what had happened with the doctor the next day following hospital protocol that any regular incidents should be reported to her immediate supervisor and Richie told Amy more about her suspicions that swing. Go had caused Ruth Derek Steph on purpose. She also talked with several other nurses about what had happened. She was afraid to mention that he was deliberately trying to kill patients. But that's what she was thinking. She certainly was that same evening, which was February seventh swing. Ango in several other doctors made their evening rounds, and they stopped in to see Riina Cooper, a sixty nine year old widow who had had an operation that morning for a lower back problem, and I won't ups age fifty nine who is scheduled for treatment for brain tumor. So for twelve days these two patients had shared a room, and they become friends Hooper, a former seamstress, and that's a former practical nurse Cooper had described herself as a born again, Christian and Utz was religious as well. So they had a Latin common on the evening of February seventh they had dinner. They watch TV, and they were talking about the bible when the doctor showed up the doctors noted that there was nothing unusual with either of the women and continued their rounds when they left Cooper was lying comfortably underside with IV antibiotics. Infusing in her left arm about an hour later between nine and nine fifteen pm an Ohio State nursing student. Caroline berry came for a routine hourly check. And she was surprised to see Dr Swango. There Cooper had requested more pain medication asking, sir. Roommate to hold the call button down for her because she couldn't reach it and swing. Go had apparently responded to this call. He was standing at Cooper's bedside about three feet away from the student nurse and the student noticed that he was adding something to Cooper's IV tube something in a syringe. So she assumed swinger was clearing a blockage. Berry stepped outside to enter data on UT's chart. But then about two minutes later. She heard us yelling, are you? All right. Mrs Cooper, then berry heard the bedrooms rattling and misses us was screaming. So she rushed to the room and Cooper was turning blue in it, stopped breathing. So the student nurse rushed to the nurses station for help and she returned to the room with a nurse named John sig and when head and called a code to doctors Reese Freeman the chief resident in neuro surgery in our. Arlo break. Oh, another resident were the first to arrive along with several nurses Swango. Even though he just been in the room didn't respond to the code right away as the senior resident freemen took charge of the code any s berry the student nurse. What had happened? She did tell him that Dr Swango had been there, and he had left and Freeman was really surprised because doctors rounds had been done earlier and Cooper wasn't scheduled for any follow up visits from the physicians. Then berry told him that she had seen Swango giving Cooper something through the IV tube. But the doctor seemed skeptical so berry was convinced that they didn't believe her mean after all she was just a student nurse, nurses, not doctors though, adjusted regular IV's while doctors may inject certain special drugs into Ivy lines Hooper didn't have anything scheduled that would have needed to be given by a physician, so as nurses went to come down Utz. She called out that a doctor with blonde hair had done something to MRs Cooper b. Between crying sobbing. She said that the blonde haired doctor had come into the room with a syringe with something yellow that you rep around your arm when you draw blood like turn a kit. She had heard him tell Cooper that. He was going to give her something to make her feel better in upset said she had watched the doctor ref the yellow tube around Cooper's arm injector with something from the syringe and run from the room. That's when Cooper's bed rails began to shake and Utz tried to press her emergency call button, but couldn't reach it. So that's when she screamed for help. But by the time, it's finished her story. They moved her to a private room down the hall. So it was only nurses that heard the whole story. Mrs Cooper, wasn't breathing. She was unconscious, but she wasn't dead. She had a nice regular heartbeat. The doctors checked her pupils, and they noticed that. There was some reaction to light. But they were surprised by what they called her total acidity. She had no reflects the intimated her because she wasn't breathing and. And usually this is a procedure that's done under some degree of sedation. Putting plastic tube done someone's throat Cooper had no reaction at all. And she's paralyzed. Yeah. No, physical reaction to anything. So Jo Risley. A nurse's aide had responded to the code and his standing outside Cooper's room in heard Beeri was a friend of his tell Freeman that Swango had injected something in Cooper's IV. He moved down the corridor and round a corner. Check into make sure there were no other patient emergencies while the medical staff was working on Cooper as he knew another room. Risley saw Swango wearing his white medical coat. Come out the door. Risley new Swango just been Cooper's room. And he knew of no reason he would be in that other room. But what really struck him? He said later was creepy look on Swango face. I think he described his like shit eating grin. Now. The two said nothing each other is a past but Risley immediately went into the room that swang had exited and on the bathroom Sankt. There was an eighteen gauge needle and attend. See syringe with a plunger depressed now, an eighteen gauge needles a big one pretty large. Yeah. Lilly. Jordan, the charge nurse who supervised other nurses on the floor was walking by and Risley asked her if anyone had been assigned to give an injection in that room. She said, no Risley asked her to look in the bathroom and pointed out, the huge needle and syringe. So the two of them foot the location of this abandoned syringes, very odd. Since a sharps container which was a box for disposing of youth. Needles and syringes was just behind the sink on the wall. Recently told Jordan that he had just seen swaying coming out of the room with a strange look on his face and the significance of their discovery immediately sank in Jordan took a paper towel wrapped it around the syringe needle and put them in a cabinet under the sink. Meanwhile, gophers responding to resuscitation efforts and within fifteen minutes, she was breathing on her own and the paralysis throughout the rest of her body had resolved the tube down her throat, preventative from speaking. But she gestured that she wanted to write something Cooper wrote. He put something in my IV Kupa take into the care unit. And there she asked for the pencil and paper again this time she wrote someone gave me some med in my IV and paralyzed all of me, lungs, heart speech. She was with that. She knew what happened to her. You don't have to be a medical person to know that some guy put something in your IV. And then you can't breathe pretty easy for anyone to figure out and as soon as. The tubers removed and she could speak. Dr Freeman Astra what had happened, and she told him that a blonde haired man had dected something into her Ivy. She had seen a syringe in his hand. But she said she'd never gotten a clear look at his face. So that's unfortunate, but the student nurse berry was really believing that none of the doctors believed what she was telling them. Dr Freeman asked her though to confirm that Swango had been in the room, and he ordered a blood test on Cooper to find out possibly what had caused this paralysis. Then he confronted Swango with this allegation that he had given kuprin injection swing denied that he had even been in Cooper's room after the doctors finish their rounds later after hearing more reports from nurses, though, Freeman again as Swango if he was sure he had not been in the room and Swango repeated that he had had no contact with Cooper with Gupta in the ICU in the crisis pretty much over the nurses just sat down and couldn't believe what had happened. They felt that something. Had to be done about this nurse. Black who was the supervisor told nurses berry in Jordan to write down everything they could remember, and she did the same thing the students berry wrote that Swingle was in the room, and it appeared that he injected something into Cooper's IV tube. Then their statements were collected and placed in a sealed envelope, which they left for the director of nursing to see the next day. She also told Jordan to retrieve that syringe and place it in her briefcase, which was interoffice. Now more was already concerned about the increase in the number of codes and deaths on the ninth floor in the last few weeks. So now she was beginning to link them specifically to Dr Swango. January fourteenth Cynthia Ann McGee a young gymnasts from the university of Illinois have been found dead in her hospital room at explained six days later, twenty one year old Richard delong was found dead. A nurse said Dr Freeman who responded to the code under long was stunned by the sudden death another patient on the ninth floor. Forty three year old Ryan welter died unexpectedly on January twenty fourth after a nurse found him gasping for air and turning blue Swango had been working on the floor at the time of all these deaths. So the nurses reported their concerns to administrators, but they were met with accusations of paranoia swing was cleared by a very Chris ary investigation in nineteen eighty four still his work had been so poor that he wasn't hired as a resident physician after his internship ended that June that July he moved back to his hometown of Quincy. He told his mom and relatives that he hadn't liked the doctors he worked with at Ohio State, and he planned to apply for a medical license in Illinois. And in the meantime, he worked as a paramedic for a few months before he resumed his medical career. So he was hired by the Adams county. The ambulance corpse, despite the fact that he'd been fired from that other ambulance service. I guess they're not communicating with each other about employees, obviously, not so is ours were unpredictable and he often worked weekends. But he frequently made the eight hour drive to Columbus to see his girlfriend Rita Duma center. Children. He would make this long drive to Columbus. Visit with Rita for just an hour. And then Dr Beck for work. So he could go as long as two days with no sleep right now. Many of his paramedics soon began to notice that whenever swing prepared coffee. You're brought food in so them would get sick violently. Sick stomach. You know, vomiting arming pain. Yeah. Then in October that year swang was arrested by the Quincy police department who found arsenic and other poisons in his possession in August. Nineteen eighty five Swango was convicted of aggravated battery for poisonings co workers and. And he was sentenced to five years in prison. Now, his conviction said of criticism for the investigation, which was admittedly poor at Ohio State review by law school dean James Meeks concluded that the hospital should have called the police. It also revealed shortcomings in its initial investigation of Swango Franklin county, Ohio prosecutors considered bringing charges of murder and attempted murder against Swango, but they eventually decided against it because they didn't have physical evidence. The blood test of patient Cooper was either lost to never dead. Well, I think what we need to the Salat was a lot of hospital politics, and it revealed a lot like we said about the medical profession and how they protect doctors. And hopefully, that's changed to some extent. Now, I think it has it has an you still have to do the reporting. But there is the national practitioners data Bank that should have information about a person. Well, yeah, this is the eighties. So hopefully information is much more easily shared now route. So in nineteen eighty nine Swango gets released from prison, and he finds work as a counselor at the state career development center in Newport, News Virginia, he was forced out after being quote working on a scrapbook of disasters on work time. Then he got a job as a lab tech. He performed adequately there. But during his time there several employs sought medical attention with complaints of persistent stomach pains. Around this time Swango mic Kristin Kinney who is a nurse riverside hospital. The two fell in love and plan to get married then in nineteen Ninety-one Swango decided to look for new position as doctor which he couldn't legally do. I mean after that conviction. He wasn't allowed to be a doctor anymore who had a felony conviction on his record. Right. So there shouldn't be any way. He could get a job as a doctor. Well, he legally changed his name to Daniel j Adams any tried to apply for a residency program at Ohio valley medical center, and that was in wheeling West Virginia. So July nineteen ninety two he began working at Sanford USD medical center in Sioux Falls, in both of these cases, he forged the legal documents that he used to reestablish himself as a physician he forged a fact sheet from the Illinois department of corrections that falsified his criminal record stating that he had been convicted of a misdemeanor for getting into a fistfight with. Co worker and had only had six months in prison rather than reality which was five years for felony poisoning. Now, of course, this is an important omission because like you said states aren't going to grant a medical license to a convicted felon, a felony conviction is viewed as evidence in and of itself of unprofessional conduct. But he's faking things. Swing also forged a restoration of civil rights letter from the governor of Virginia falsely stating that he had committed no further crimes after his misdemeanor and was leading an exemplary lifestyle Swango was able to establish fairly good reputation at Sanford medical center, but in October he made the mistake of attempting to join the American Medical Association. So the AMA did a more thorough background check than the medical center and found out about his poisoning conviction that thanksgiving the Discovery Channel. Aired an episode of Justice files that included in a segment on Swango remarkable to me with the AMA report in multiple calls from frightened colleagues, Sanford fired Swango, his girlfriend Kristin Kinney went back to Virginia afterwards, she had started suffering severe migraines after she left Swango, the headaches stopped. So I mean, I think we can draw conclusions from that that he'd. Been poisoning her as well while they were living together planning to marry right? Yeah. You just got a kick out of it really his his case sokaia. Yeah. But the AMA temporarily lost track of Swango and he managed to enter the psychiatric residency program at the state university of New York. His first rotation was in the internal medicine department at the VA medical center in northport. But again, his patients began dying. Four months later. Kristen Kenny committed suicide. Now her mother. Sharon Cooper was horrified to find out a person with swang goes history. Could even be allowed to practice medicine. She got in touch with a friend of Kristen who is nurse at Sanford, the nurse alerted Sanford's dean, Robert tally about swang goes whereabouts. So tally contacted the dean and under intense questioning from the head of the psychiatry department Swango admitted that he had lied about his poisoning conviction, Illinois, and he was immediately fired while the public outcry that followed resulted in doctors Cohen and Miller of the state university of New York being forced to resign before he resigned Coen sent a warning about Swango to all one hundred twenty five medical schools and all one thousand teaching hospitals across the US. So he prevented Swango from getting another medical residency in the United States because I feel like he absolutely would have tried again. Of course. But the thing is her affi-. Is it? None of these hospitals did due diligence right Swango as you said was an excellent conversationalist and people wanted to believe him. Yes. I agree. And it would not have been very difficult to check references. I'll know find out what he'd been doing. Absolutely. But they didn't they didn't. But I also believe that this was a time when people don't more with paper, you handed them documents. Now, I think everything's online hopefully in this would be much tougher to do today. Not that that excuses any of the terrible things that happened because it could have been prevented right now. His latest incident was at a veterans affairs facility. So federal authorities got involved in swing go disappeared. And then in mid nineteen ninety four the F B I found out he was living in Atlanta and was working as a chemist at a computer equipment company's wastewater facility. A soon after the FBI alert the company Swango was fired for lying on his job application, the FBI obtained a warrant charging Swango with using fraudulent credentials to gain entry to a VA hospital. But by the time the warrant was issued swang would left the country in November nineteen ninety four. He went to Zimbabwe and got a hospital job based on forged documents. And once again is patients began to die mysteriously. Took a year though, for the poisons to be connected to then he was arrested in Zimbabwe. He was charged with poisonings he hired prominent lawyer David Coltart, but he escaped from symbolic way before his trial date and hit out in Zambia. This is a crazy story, isn't it? Yeah. Out of this world, this is one of those truth stranger than fiction things. Absolutely. So at that time, he rented a room from widowed woman who ended up getting violently ill after she ate a meal in the house where he was now she consulted a local surgeon who suspected that she had arsenic poisoning. And he persuaded her to send hair samples for forensic analysis. These clippings confirmed toxic levels of arsenic, in her hair. The lab reports were passed onto this Imbaba Republic. Police criminal investigation department through INTERPOL to the FBI who then visited Zimbabwe to interview this pathologist. In the meantime, Swango head really figured out that the authorities were closing in. So he crossed the border to Zambia and then to Nimby where he found temporary medical work. He was charged in absent show with poisonings year and a half later in March nineteen ninety seven he applied for another job at the Royal. Hospital in Dhahran Saudi Arabia, using another falsified CV, of course. Well, all this was happening criminal investigator. Tom Valeri consulted with Charlene Thomasson MD, a forensic psychiatrist to have her help him with the Swango case because of her clinical expertise, she was able to review documents and evidence in she gave a psychological profile of Dr Swango, Tom Valeri cul de agent. Richard Thomson nor relation who was stationed in the Manhattan DA office to discuss the case his conversation focused on Swango lying on his government application to work at the department of veterans affairs where he prescribed narcotic medications. This and other evidence were enough for immigration and Naturalization Service agents to arrest Ouango in June of nineteen ninety seven and the way they got him is he was stopping over at Chicago O'Hare international airport on his way to Saudi Arabia. So Swango pleaded guilty to defrauding the government in March nineteen ninety eight in July of that year. He was sentenced to three and a half years in prison. The sentencing judge ordered that Swango not be allowed to prepare or deliver food or have any involvement in preparing or distributing drugs. Smart move. Finally, something smart. The government put together a mess of file swang goes crimes as part of the investigation. Prosecutors exumed the bodies of three of his patients and found poisonous chemicals in them. They also found evidence paralyze Barron, harass another patient with an injection Harris. Head later lapsed into a coma and died. Prosecutors also found evidence that Swingle lied about the death of Cynthia Ann McGee the young gymnasts. He had been treating while. He was an intern at Ohio State swing co-head claim that she suffered heart failure. But he had actually killed her by giving her a potassium injection that stopped hurt that's easy to get access to the physician or sure. Very easy. And it's one of those things that are pretty much untraceable. Yes. Unless you quickly do blood work and see that they have a massively elevated potassium level in their blood. But that usually doesn't happen, right? So until I eleventh two thousand just a week before he was due to be released from prison on the fraud charge. Federal prosecutors on Long Island filed a criminal complaint. Charging Swango with three counts of murder one count of assault and one count each of false statements mail fraud and conspiracy to commit wire fraud at the same time. Symboblic authorities charged him with poisoning seven patients five of whom had died. Swing was indicted in July two thousand and he pleaded not guilty. But on September six he pleaded guilty to murder in fraud charges if he hadn't done that he had faced the possibility of the death penalty as well as. Tradition to symboblic at his sentencing hearing, prosecutors read some terrifying passages from a notebook of his where he had described the pleasure. He got from poisoning and killing people he was sentenced to three consecutive life. Terms swing a repeated the same methods to commit these murders with non patients such as co workers at the paramedic service. He used poisons like arsenic, slipping them into food and drinks with patients he sometimes used the same poisons. But usually he gave them an overdose of whatever drug the patient had been prescribed or he even wrote out false prescriptions for drugs. So the book we mentioned earlier is blind eye written by James b Stewart. Excellent book, very good. And in the book, they estimate that counting the suspicious deaths in med school swinger was linked to thirty five suspicious deaths. And of course, that can't be all of it. The F B I believes he might be responsible for about sixty deaths. But we do recommend this book. It's just fascinating goes into excellent detail. We really couldn't have done the podcast without information. We got from that book will it's one of these books that you read, and you just get angry reading it whine as the physician. It's it makes you angry. His he's giving you guys a bad name. Doesn't make you look. Good dickey. No, no. Especially the way that he was protected. I don't like that. At all. He was note of only say they you're talking about how it was years ago and things were different than it certainly was. Yeah. And these days, you would listen to nurses and nine physician employs when they have suspicions. You wouldn't summarily dismissed up fully not. But you know, I think that not all doctors are like you some of them have big egos and don't respect nurses like you do. Well, let's because I'm a pediatrician not that's my excuse. I think there's a certain personality type that goes into different specialties. I'll share to a certain extent, but I would hope that officers would respect nurses, enough to listen to them are absolutely especially when you have repeated complaints and suspicious activity by someone like this. I mean, there were many suspicious things about him. It wasn't just a. One thing there were so many things. That's right. But anyway, thanks for this discussion, really an interesting case in a great book to read for moving today show has been sponsored by ADT real protection when it comes to something as important as your family's safety. You deserve real protection. From ADT. Real protection means the nation's number one smart home security provider is there for you. When you need them. Real protection means eighteen thousand employs safeguard in you, no matter how you define safety. ADT? Is there ADT real protection? Visit ADT dot com forward slash podcast to learn more about how ADT can design and install a secure smart home. Just for you. The music for true crime Burri was written and produced by Tristian Capelle in. This is the point our show when I tell listeners about our members only episodes, which we produce exclusively for our team Tigres member. Hours and our patriot supporters this past February are members only episode was about female serial killer, Sheila labar who actually seduced abused and killed young men on her New Hampshire farm and this month actually within a few days. I believe we're going to be recording. Our members only episode on Robert rela then and this is a fascinating case. Dick is taken the lead on this one. And it's an amazing case. I really can't wait to talk about it. The sky was a serial rapist and murderer. A handsome charming kind of guy reminds me a little bit of Ted Bundy, he had a friendly smile and people trusted him. So for like twenty years he committed crimes and got away with a lot of them. So we have a big Beck load of these episodes, including episodes on OJ Simpson. Tina Watson rubber Fisher clear, a Harris and Diane downs if you'd like to give some support the podcast and get some extra episodes to listen to you can go to our. Website. It's tigr aber dot com, and you can join you can also go to patriot dot com forward slash tigr ever and become a patron our members and patrons. Also, get a snifter or a bottle opener sa-, magnets, and stickers. As a thank you from us. One other thing, we always appreciate it. If you could give a review on I tunes over ever you. Listen to the show to help us fine some new listeners, so let's get to feedback. If you have feedback and you want it read on T CB, you can send us an Email to true crime brewery at tigr dot com or tell us what's on your mind in your own voice by leaving a voicemail on our leva voicemail tab, which is on the right side of the screen when you go to our website homepage. Either way you do it. We would love to hear from you. So the first thing we have in feedback is a voicemail from Shelby with the case suggestion. Hi, jill. Hi, dick. This is Shelby from Tacoma, Washington. I love your podcast. And I have a few case suggestions, the first one is the skeleton brothers Tanner Alexander Andrew witnessing in Michigan of ember. Twenty six two thousand ten the dad said he gave the boys to underground sanctuary due to the moms pedophilia. The second case is van Braida murders in Stellenbosch, South Africa, January twenty seven to two thousand fifteen it was a home invasion with an axe killing three leaving to live with a very frustrating. Lang one one call and huge twist at the end and the most recent is the murder of four months old sterling in Iowa August thirtieth two thousand seventeen twenty one year old mom left. Her son in swing with a blanket in a hot room, and Wayne sterling was found, unfortunately, he had passed away in there were maggots in his diaper. I know how much dick loves work. With children. So I thought that would be a great case as well. I love the podcast, and I cannot wait to hear more from you guys think you think shall be those are some good suggestions that last one's pretty disturbing. But will they're all disturbing, right? Where you're good guy. Only put the first one out to talk about for today on a reserve the other two from Shelby, okay? For the first one that you're talking about is the skeleton brothers have never heard of this is in your territory, these boys three boys think five eight and ten or Sunday. Three little kids went missing from Morandi Michigan, which is near Detroit on black Friday two thousand ten the parents were divorced or separated tiny skeleton said her husband John was supposed to return the voice to her. But he never did. John skelton. Meanwhile, always maintained that had given the boys away because his wife or ex wife Tanya was abusing her sons and she was later charged with misconduct for. Sex with a fourteen year old boy in nineteen ninety. And she, of course denied that. She abused the boys. But no one's ever found him says what about the sky saying he gave him away. There's no consequences for that. This is one of these crazy cases where they just said. Okay. And what the fuck I think he went to jail for time. But it never found him. I don't know again. I feel like if an adult loses children quotation marks lay should be held responsible for killing the children because you don't give children away like that. And they never show up again. I'm sorry. But so not available reason business Sumer can interest in case. It does. Yeah. Yep. I think that that is an interesting one. So and yeah, you know, three of the suggestions shall be gave sounded fascinating. Yeah. Good job. So she concise. She gave three of them. I liked it. Okay. Well, done Shelby. Thank you. Okay. The next voicemail is from Tracy. It's also a case suggestion high. Jalen dick, this is Tracy from Iowa. I love your podcast. I listened to many true crime podcast, and yours is one of my favorites. I have a case suggestion. It's about Jessica Lunceford. She was a nine year old and Florida that was kidnapped raped and buried alive by disgusting. Sex offender, the really terrible case on I'm surprised. I haven't heard I haven't been able to find any other podcasts that have covered it. And then her wonderful father after that worked to get Jessica's law passed, and he and his family were initially harassed by people accused of killing Jessica, I would love to hear you covered this case. Thank you. Thank you, Tracy. So I see the copious notes and this one I know you were talking to me about this law. So you wanna say few comments about this when dick sure abridge the notes little bit. Okay. Okay. But she was murdered in February two thousand five. She's little nine year old kid in HAMAs of Florida. And she was taken right from her home from her home sex offender live nearby name is John Kui, and he apparently held her captive over the weekend raping her and then murdered her by burying her alive. I think at heard of this. So they dragged him down because he fled the state and was living somewhere else. But they found him in charged him and sentenced to death. But then he died of natural causes before it sends could be carried out following her death refiner Mark lens pursued legislation to provide more stringent tracking of released sex offenders. So the Jessica Leonard redact was named after her and it requires tighter restrictions on sex offenders such as wearing electric tracking devices and increase prison sentences for some convicted sex offenders Jessica's law refers to similar reform ex that might be initiated by other states. So he's been tireless in getting this taken care of. Well, that sounds like a good topic. Yeah. And he's Tracy said he got some blowback on this from hell from the sex offenders who gives a shit about that, you know, they said I've served my sentence. A should be able to do what I want to do, blah, blah, blah. I'm simplifying this. But it is a whole other issue how we deal with sex offender. So yes, it is a tissue. So if we do this case that might be something to discuss, right? Absolutely. I think that could be an interesting conversation to have. Okay, I'm on board for that, those are voice mails. We have a couple emails. I once Christine Christine has a case suggestion. She says that she loves our show and where her favorites. So thanks Christine. She says as you spent a good amount of time in Maine. I wonder if you've ever looked into the Sabado Sabino riot case back in the late nineteen nineties. He went on trial for gunning down three on armed men. He claimed had followed him and his girlfriend to his home to harm them though. One of the three was killed while clearly trying. To flee riot was found not guilty at trial. Also, if you do look into that case, dick should checkout. Four river brewing, although Prebble, especially their sour cherry varieties. My faith estuary may appeal to dick thank you Christine. So what do you know about this? Stick. Vaguely remember this 'cause I was living in Maine at the time just to embellish a little bit. And I don't want to give too much away. Because this is an interesting case. But these guys riot owned a bar or club or something in Portland, and these people came in, and there was a loud argument between riot in the three guys. And then when he left with his girlfriend, they followed him and his defense was that he was fearful of his life because it had this pipe boisterous argument beforehand. A cell phone say could come nine one one don't know. Because main doesn't have a stand your ground law. Does it not specifically? But he said he acted in self defense because he feared for his life. Although one of the suspects was trying flee. Correct. So that would go against what he's saying. Yeah. But he was found not guilty. Wow. Mostly I think that's one that would really frustrate me in upset me. But it would also have some interesting things. To discuss so considerate. Plus if we're talking about a sour cherry beer, I find that hard to turn down where you've heard there. Oh have. I did. I like it. Good for room, a pretty good brewery and gotten a bunch of beers from them did buy yours. Maybe just a single can of because he is to be able to buy singles the beverage place in Kittery. I like most were river beers. And he had asked ury not had estuary have had a couple of their IPA's, quite good. Okay. So that'd be something to think about good. Okay. One final case suggestion from Cindy, I edited her letter to a Cindy wrote. I have read an rules book about the Deborah green case, I have read all of her books, so far and she's a great writer. I can imagine the shock. She must have felt when she found out that her ex co worker Ted Bundy was a serial killer. Now, I think she was mentioning the Deborah green case because that's something. She just listened to in. She wrote to us, correct? Okay. Her suggest. Question is this. As a high priority. I'm still very much interested in new covering a case, I've mentioned before the murder of Naomi, Jim Alif. This case is about the clash between teenagers in parents, especially parents who are old enough to be the child's grandparents. I was a late one is my mother was forty three when I was born in my dad was fifty five. So yes, I think this is interesting. We've both looked at this case in it's definitely one that we want to cover. So they're also known as the barbecue murders here. All right. They're known as the barbecue murders because it was a double murder in Marin County, California and business consultant Jim Alvin his wife Naomi were murdered in their home by their sixteen year old adopted daughter Marlene olive inner twenty year old boyfriend Charles Riley, who then attempted to dispose of their bodies by burning them in a barbecue pit at a nearby. Campground? Rally was convicted of two counts of first degree murder and received a death sentence, which was later changed to life in prison with the possibility of parole Marlene Alif who was sick. Steen was tried as a juvenile and received a sentence of three to six years in the California youth authority juvenile facility. So she was released at age twenty one after serving just a little over four years. This case gained worldwide attention due to the age of the perpetrators. Of course, the details of the crime, which are grizzly and the wide disparity in sentencing between Charles Riley and Marlene all of this has also been the topic of continuing coverage in connection with his repeated bids for parole and she's head subsequent convictions for numerous other crimes, which I find interesting. I would like to follow up on how she did after getting out shoes kind of a career criminal. But nothing violent not that we know of. But that reminds MU that case we didn't Canada couple years ago. Yeah. Runaway devil. She was with thirteen. Yes. As far as we know our she's she's been out for several years, and his lead a clean life. As far as we know. And I think there's a big difference though between thirteen and sixteen years maturity think about that. Yeah. But it's definitely an interesting topic. So certainly has one we might wanna pursue. Thank you. Cindy. Thank you very much. So thank you to everyone for your emails and for your voicemails. And if you've sent a something, and we haven't read it on the area. We may be caustic has backlog, right or do. Okay. So don't give up hope. Okay. At that. You would anyway. No. All right. Well, we will see an ex time at quiet end. And thank you for listening. Join us abide by.