Triangulation 409: Ludicrous: The Unvarnished Story of Tesla Motors
Hi this is leo laporte. We have a great guest for you this week. On triangulation et neater meyer is an auto writer podcast or he covers cars and he's just published published new book all about tesla from the beginning to now. What a story ludicrous coming up next ironically people who aren't familiar with the business they think well if you spend one hundred thousand dollars car you expect more of it and do in certain ways you expect that it said there's something about you or it looks a certain way or performs a certain way but really in terms of what makes a car hard to make well the cheapest cars are the ones ones that the customers rely on the most and so and you also build them in bigger volume and so there's more opportunities to go wrong that combination of having more things can go wrong and and having customers who are less tolerant when things go wrong. I'm is just not well. Adapted for urban tesla has not adopted themselves to that until i was reading these stories saying listen you may be getting away with this now but when you get the model three out there and you're trying to sell cars at thirty five forty thousand dollars. It's even there which is not cheap that there's going to be a different kind of buyer and you need to start taking the the service. Quality are the two main interrelated because qualities bad ad then service get swamped right and that's exactly the problem that we've seen and instead of you know at the time saying oh yeah you know we are getting into different market. You know we need to be doing this where we are or like taking this seriously and we embrace this kind of criticism which again it's constructive. I wasn't trying to tear them down. I it was because i actually do agree with the generally what they're trying to accomplish. I'm an instead they yeah they attack and may be terrible and they sick these hordes of people online nine to really just harass you and they'll sue and they'll go after you and <hes> there's you know cases of whistle blowers at the tesla plan who i mean it's almost shocking how they've been smeared and attacked so and yet everybody i've talked to as a model three loves it. Yeah it does faction on model. Three is very very high yeah well. They also measure that within three days of you. Buying <hes> sources have told me if i'm wrong tesla. Please get some information out there by empirical you know which is my anecdotal measurements measurements. Are people love their model threes and you know just the way i love my model monolithic. It was kind of like you're buying into it. You're you're buying into the fantasy and you can't say well. It's yeah there's problems because then it you're in a way you're impugning your own judgment yeah no absolutely and they are great cars like just as something to drive into how fun driving and to experience as a piece of technology like so much fun to drive rabbit tesla. It really is a great carter. It's actually that was the thing that surprised me the most because the s in the accident and they're okay. They're fast but they're not like for me anyway. I prefer more like a good handling car in the model three handles pretty well. I also just don't think like the design is necessarily. I like it personally last last market. Yeah it's not it's not what most of his support. That's like. You know sort of really really deep but not very wide okay there. Were i mean i have to say <hes> when they they started taking pre orders for the model three one thousand dollar deposit for the model three and in day one. It's one hundred thousand two hundred thousand. I think it got to over three hundred thousand billions of dollars almost five hundred thousand five five hundred thousand or four seventy five and that was what twenty fifteen sixteen sixteen at that point. I said they turned the corner. The alon secret plan paid off. They have an eighteen billion dollar kitty now to to to to become a real car company. That's not quite what happened. It is not quite what happened and ironically it. Was that success that made you you think you know maybe the corner has been turned that actually ended up being their undoing in a way it was the combination that success in sort of the hubris that has always been a part of tesla. I'm basically they had a really really ambitious. Manufacturing plan to build five hundred thousand by twenty twenty-nine. That's a really ambitious ramp and when those orders came in yuan apparently thought you know this. Is it like we've we have arrived right. We've made it and now we need to be able to to really do something revolutionary with manufacturing and he again they brought a high tech approach to this which is like. Let's make a quantum leap right. Let's do this alien dreadnought where it's all robots and it's moving so fast human couldn't even be part of the production process all this stuff and you know. These are things that like car companies but he's talked about it. In the nineteen eighty s and even general motors tried building a super automated plant in flint michigan that did not work out well then and the technology has not changed enough and you know fundamentally manufacturing is not a good fit with the with the high tech sector because big quantum leaps don't really happen in manufacturing. It's a fundamentally the mentally iterative thing and that's why the twitter production system one of the core principles as kyw's ian which means continuous improvement and means everybody who's part of this system improves their part a little bit every day and collectively because of the scale of the operation all those tiny little little improvements really can create some amazing advancements but it's not sort of get a bunch of really smart creative people together and feed them a lot of red bull and like the hackers on their way to something that's way better and so what happened was tesla ended up spending. It's hard to find it billions of dollars right they've had they've raised four and a half billion dollars since two thousand sixteen that that were they explicitly said they're trying to get to five hundred thousand units. They still haven't i made five hundred thousand units. They say they won't until they have this new factor in china and it's because they got way too ambitious and they literally built two assembly lines that like kind of don't work yeah and they had to build the one in the tent and ironically the mishap up that let's get so fast in less mated even even before where it's extremely dependent on manual labor which is now supposedly what they're doing in in china and so to me. That's just such a great lesson in in the auto industry right. If you teach you know you treat it like you know you can just hack on your way through this and and make these quantum leaps you end up actually going backwards and that's that's what tesla did and they really because of hubris they really squandered a historic historic opportunity with the model three and frankly now with service problems and persistent. Quality problems are kind of continuing to. I think it's because they're just not set up to be a mass market car company. So what so it's possible isn't it that you're a traditional car guy. You know that's your background. You covered traditional car companies and what what musk is trying to do is visionary and different and so their position would be you car. Guys won't get it because we're not going to do things the way they used to be done and you have to admit not just with tesla with spacex that he lands crazy hubris and willingness to be just just out of the box and i've often i think it's because he thinks we're in a simulation and it doesn't matter whatever it is. Maybe it's the drugs he's taking. I don't know <hes> <hes> is that is the silicon valley way that is to some degree. What made silicon valley success isn't it possible that the the best way to do a new car company wouldn't be the way g._m. And ford and you know toyota did it but to do it. The way silicon valley did it well. I think for a premium brands yeah if you only want to sell so he's mistake is just it's trying to be a mass market company. Yes that really is the is the fundamental mental mistake and and again. I think i've really tried to not make this book about elon musk. I my background is auto industry early covering the auto industry and that's right now and that's what i tried to really focus on covering. I'm and i i. I think that you know if you look at the history. Which is what the book does does it shows that from the very beginning and at every step they've not fully understood and underestimated the challenge of what they were getting any into but that's very silicon valley. It didn't see jobs stead. We're gonna do a smartphone that first iphone prototype demonstrated onstage barely worked yeah it was not a product yep and and that's very silicon valley and the silicon valley motto is fail fast right and ah move forward right and so if you have a product that <hes> the manufacturing is nimble enough on and most most importantly that the margins are high enough on then you can sort of make it work right which is why i think if you have a small volume you know manufacturing texturing and you're selling really really like instead of bringing their prices down. Tesla should be breaking their prices up. They should be doing special. Yvonne signature editions for like three eight hundred four hundred five hundred thousand dollars seriously like 'cause jason candidate but by it that exactly and there's a lot of people who who who by that and they could make money money and guess what like that's more of what they've been doing than what they originally planned. I bought the bioweapon defense mode uh-huh because he said it would be great. If you ever had a mustard gas attack. I don't need that. I spent a lot of money on that but i also knew in my head a it's cool because it's got that bioweapon logo and be i'm i'm putting money into tesla to support this vision of our future and i think you're right. I think there's still people with their do that. I probably would do that but it has to be. A car that i can drive you can rely on that. I can rely on and if if they're gonna if they lose that now i it's probably too recent to have got into your book but what book does talk about j._d. Struggle who is an an interesting fellow because he doesn't get any credit. Nobody knows his name but he's the c._t._o. At tesla he's considered well. That's the that's the news right he was he he was considered to be the guy really the genius behind the whole thing left about <hes> he sold three million dollars in stock and then left about a week ago. What does that tell me what that means. You talk about j. b. and the book yeah so i mean i think <hes> well. I think the trouble was really important in building one of the key technological assets that tesla has which is their drive train technology and he really brought that from being something that you know a._c. Propulsion is recreated the original drive him that they were going to sort of use for the roadster but it was like literally handmade hand tune oh no documentation of nothing so jay strongbow basically and his folks you know sort of took those beginnings but really really made it into what is clearly industry-leading electric drivetrain technology and see. That's that's me. This stuff is is innovative native. This stuff is amazing. So i think to understand this problem. You have to think about about successful car companies and you you know toyota is pretty clearly. The most successful car company the last fifty years and they went from being a loom company. They made looms for weaving. They got into the car business. You know really in the in the really mostly since world war two i mean they started before then but <hes> and toyotas have never been the sexiest cars have never been the fastest cars. They've never been the highest tech cars in fact a lot of those things they've i've been very conservative and yet they've become what the you know they're always in the top three in terms of sales and sales volume and they're always proffer the best car ever owned was alexis best car ever owned and i think what that lesson shows is that you know we have we as humans we have this really an and some of us more than others we. There's is an emotional connection to cars some have it more than others and people have it. There's different variations of that emotional connection and but but that's a really important part of cars but also also i think what that can help us lose sight of and that's why people like tesla tesla reflects their personality or the image that they think of themselves. Maybe your computer programmer and that that's the card that reminds you of like programming or the place. That tact holds in the world now right. It's very symbolic but at the end of the day the tesla screen has asteroids on it my god it's an arcade and a car yeah so i think what twitter shows is that is that these things that are important for premium cars. That's a that's. Its own thing and what works in the mass. Market is just has to be well-made reliable oh and affordable. It's a it's a it's a utility right. You're buying the ability to get from point to point b. Whenever you want as simply and drama a free as possible yeah you know <hes> trauma. Free is not the word you'd apply to tesla manufacturing yeah drama magnet. It is yeah personality part of the problem yeah. I'm so again i i really didn't this book to be about ilan moscow. I wanted to be about tesla but i think you can't separate the two and i think that you know that that moment in two thousand and even said you an anecdote where he elon said we're not building toyota's yup yup i'm and he in two thousand six when he put himself at the center of this because the media coverage had had not been making him out to be the genius behind all this you know we've seen that trend continue and tesla has become more and more and more about elon musk ever percents and heart of that dynamic has been that nobody rate us. We've seen how they treat critics outside the company. I've certainly seen it. <hes> any others have as well but that scenic exist inside the company. If you will on says something that's what's going to happen and there is nobody who can put a check on him and i think j b struggle was maybe one of the people who could have and and so one of the the manifest in a lot of ways this. This kind of dynamic is how you get to a point where the funding secured thing happened where you just said this stuff. That wasn't true twins the cost of twenty million dollars the lawyers couldn't stop him because he didn't. He doesn't listen listen to lawyers. He doesn't hire lawyers. Don't say you know yet you on go for it. I'm and yes so i think i think that that making taking the key and again i think it also ties into the mass market ambitions. He wanted that not because the mass markets were a lot of money it was this grand messianic vision asian which ultimately he wanted to be at the center of and i think people say what is tesla out. Is he a fraudster as this that i think a lot of what tesla is about is about him feeling good about himself and about feeling good about how people see him. I think there's a lot of points where you can look at decisions that have been made about that company that have been very momentous and not that they were. Maybe the right choice for ilan. They weren't necessarily the right choice for tesla it must be it must be a moment moment in our history where these kinds of people rise up because that's very much like the guy in the white house. <hes> is j. b. Leaving a <hes> a bad sign yeah so it's it's part of a yeah i mean clearly someone who who is that <hes> brilliant and who has made those kinds of contributions to a <hes> to their core drafting technology clearly. That's that's not ideal. I think the most worrying part of it is that it's yet another <hes> relationship that does not look on the distance tesla and the car business is a relationship business. It's like the i call it. The ultimate team sport because no one person and this is why you don't see people like you must get in the car industry and this is why he so he's so dynamic and so exciting people is like whoa. There's a guy in the car. Business makes cars but he's also larger than life and exciting and it's is because it's team. It's a team sport right. You have to work together and be part of that has relationships with companies that are your suppliers right and we've seeing basically every supplier almost every supplier that tesla's worked with in a serious way certainly mobile i which helped him get autopilot off the ground at a certain point that relationship blew out. We don't need them anymore and now and now what we're seeing now what's really scary. Now is that sort of. I'm not saying relates to jay. Strongbow blew up jamie strawberries leaving. That's another a guy who's not at tesla anymore. <hes> and then a panasonic <hes> <hes> they make the batteries and and it's most tesla's longest his lasting i think supplier relationship one of them certainly and clearly the most important one and gbi struggle was the point man. Oh boy so we've seen signs at that. Relationship is not going well already leading up to davis troubles departure <hes>. It's very hard to be optimistic about the relationship now but it's also like what is tesla do without out there battery supplier while they're building they. You're actually in nevada right now. They built the gigafactory. Isn't that going to fix the problem. So the gigafactory tesla built the building there are parts inside of it so panasonic basically rents sonic factory the cells that make up the back so there's there's battery cells right and then there's battery packs test the assembles the cells in the packs. They're weirdest thing ever. I was at the tesla factory when i picked up my model ten model decks. They're using the same. What do the eighty six fifty cells that you see in laptops that you see everywhere eight hundred six fifty eighteen six fifty thing just put a lot of them together and those are panasonic parts <hes> yeah yeah and the reason they did that is because they thought that battery technology was going to change all the time time and that these cells were the first sort of format that new chemistries come out in and they're also high volume so they'd be cheaper and you get the new chemistry sooner and ironically weekly we actually haven't since since tesla was founded there haven't been major breakthroughs in in lithium ion battery chemistry yeah and that's not tesla's fall all but but just for contrast the other automakers us like flats lyrical matic and like flat pouch cells because they think it's easier to package package pack better cylinder is not an efficient to pack it and it's very complicated to make and they've been all kinds of challenges with the manufacturing aspects of that. I really want tesla not only survive but to win <hes> but you're you're right when i think of so for instance ford and their former ceo alan mulally a complete opposite of elon musk a guy who works well well with people who smart but quiet who doesn't get a lot of headlines <hes> is is is this test. I have a shot. It's a complicated question to answer. <hes> i look they have the everything they need to have have a extremely durable small volume premium premium. There's our path forward but it's not the path or taking exactly so they need to stop with this and i think the the scary part right is that you know we haven't talked about the stock but like a lot of what they've been doing is is also making decisions that are good for their stock but not necessarily good for the company and this sort of emphasis on hyper growth <hes> that's a story that the investors by and so the stock goes up and of course that's good for ilan too because he owns a lot of the stock but constantly growing at breakneck speed is also just not a good way to run a business and <hes> an and especially one. That's it's sort of has the culture that it has the has now after fifteen years. You know your culture is what it is. It's not gonna turn around overnight but but the question is can tesla walk away from this story that they're gonna just keep growing until they sell what like every car in the world. I don't know i mean maybe they may be traffic in market expectations yeah. That's the that's the scary thing because <hes> you know the the at the core. They've got great technology and great design. They've got a a lot of things that will make a the first sort of you know premium new premium car brand of the twenty first century. They deserve to be that they've they've. They have that that it's just the hubris that that doesn't let them be happy with that and doesn't let them see that they've had this profound impact on cars and the market get and the industry without having to sell millions of cars. They had a very bad <hes> quarter. They're losing a lot of money but they're sitting on a decent decent amount of cash. They're not not gonna run out of money tomorrow. They've got the model why coming <hes> next year. They're working on a truck. You think they should put that stuff on the back burner and just try to make a better model three. I'm it's a it's a yeah. I mean this so so they have they have the <hes> the roadster and semi and like a pickup truck and a model. Why i think are all basically supposed to come out next year. I think has been pushed back or whatever there's there's too much going on there. You have the folks on something. I think making a model why it makes sense because it uses the model three parts. Basically it's a very high parts commonality which the model x. did not have which model experts a disaster on one of the reasons it was a it was a disaster so <hes> i think the roadster make sense for them because because that gets them back into that visually the high yeah yeah yeah pushing the technology forward. That's all something that mass market carmakers. Do you have to do it it. In small volumes in order to really really push kind of there are eight. That's what they're good at yeah well. It's it but it's even a higher <hes> thing so honestly i i. I think the the really scary thing for tesla. We have no time to talk about this. I'm is the autonomous vehicle the full self-driving thing. I think that they are oh and by the way i have a podcast. It's one of the bigger autonomous vehicle podcast. I talked to people in all the time. I'm not just a a metal bending guy <hes> and i think that they are selling something that they can't deliver and i think that it is already proving to be corrosive to elon musk credibility which is frankly tusla's most important asset and i think that <hes> that ultimately is you know a lot of set itself up to be a confidence game. You know and i know that has associations within. I'm not saying it's you know they've always been fraud. Whatever i think people make some wild accusations about them but they've certainly depended. Certainly their stock prices depended it on trust that like this guy collander rocket on a barge he can do whatever he says he's gonna do and <hes> the history that's not necessarily the case but also just everything about autonomous technology and what we know about how it's being developed indicates that this entire strategy doesn't make sense that that that technically they don't have the the sensors and the redundancy a whole bunch of other things to make that and so i think what the biggest challenge to tesla right now is how how do they painted themselves in this corner i can maybe they deliver on. I am not saying there's no chance that they deliver on it but i think that's gonna make or break that company. I feel like it was the same thing as the <hes> biological defense filter it was over. It was a poorly named. You know it was basically it's basically adaptive. Cruise control and lane changing autopilot yeah halted autopilot pilot <hes> which was probably poor choice consumer report says don't click on a pilot <hes> but elands really got in trouble by basically insinuating well. We'll have level level five autonomy next year and soon tesla owners will be able to rent out their cars and make money on their cars because it'll just drive people around and he's not insinuating his people's money it is it is a fairytale and and i think that it shows right that he has this relationship with his fans ends where they just want to believe that he's married to and so they're they're going to have to figure out how that were like. You know i believe he's magical but i never took my hands off. The wheel disengaged all the time yup. <hes> i never treated it like oh i could take a nap and it's irresponsible able to imply that you could yeah and i think there's even technical aspects to it writes who doesn't have a driver monitoring system like super crews. There hasn't been a single crash. Let alone a fatality not looking at you and if you're not paying attention to the road. It doesn't let you try tested it. Because i covered my eyes i had because as i thought this is crazy and the seat starts going like this i mean this is how it should be an e. Lonzo said there were engineers and told the wall street journal you know well. It was because of cost right. They didn't want to add more cost and and of course said no no no. It's because the technology doesn't really wait a second ticket. You're this you land rockets on ships but you can't make eye tracking camera software work like balance because you do have to sell the vision right there. There is this you do have to be salesman but i think you put the finger on is he was selling the vision and and what autopilot always was was sort of like two thousand thirteen google had to offer to buy them and it wasn't until after that whether they cancelled the deal because they so you know paid off the government loan their stock went crazy and they said we we don't need you google anymore but like right after that that's when you started talking about autopilot and if you look back at what he what he said it was about you know so while we can do about ninety percent of what was going to do with stuff that we can just put on the car now that you can afford whereas google saying it's could be you know really expensive cars egypt nafta share them <hes> and so he is he is sold the appearance of autonomous drive the assimilate assimilate similac of of autonomy and he's walked this line between you know at first it was like self driving cars are here when that when that first launched i there are all these headlines about sherbert self driving cars are here and then when people started to die that was like oh no no no it's actually just a driver assistance system and the and the the story is constantly changing but you'll notice that once once once they had to start saying oh no no. It's just a driver system. That's when they said okay in twenty sixteen starting now. Every car has a hardware for full self driving coming if you pay us five dollars for some mattress that's what makes their business to the extent that their business works. It's that that that profit right from. You know these from software basically that they still haven't even delivered three years. I had a montel exit never once used summit. I didn't dare i i didn't want it. I didn't know what's going to happen. Your car comes out of your garage. Pulls up and says get in. I'm not gonna use. I didn't even use the auto park and that's a well well understood technology in in many vehicles but it also doesn't work while in tusla it hasn't even have does it doesn't even have the blind spot. The sensors are terrible. Mike the falcon wing kept hitting my wife. We actually got to the point where we say i had she said look you may not close the doors until you say is everybody inside or your hands and and feed inside the vehicle. I am now closing the doors okay twice in her bed. Better blind spot monitoring which i think is a fantastic <hes>. <hes> you know driver assistance system. You'd better one in a in a fifteen thousand dollar. You know absolutely corolla. I get the top down camera. I could see what's all around me. Yeah note absolutely <hes> by the way the podcast ed's podcast called otano cast its tunnel cast dot com yup and <hes>. I think this is a fascinating subject act but we we are farther off than we than anybody admits. Don't you think yeah and that's the really interesting thing. Is that well so so now. Most thomas <music> <hes> dr development companies are are admitting that that is farther off and they're dialing back their their deadlines or their target dates for deployment and they're they're talking down on hype rhetoric and the one exception to that is eli moss course tesla and they are keeping their foot on that hype but or whatever whatever the hype pedal and i think that i i just don't see how they can keep doing it. I don't i mean i guess maybe you know maybe there is some fundamental breakthrough that nobody else in the second because it's not just me i'm. I'm my opinions. Thomas drive technology the obvious from personal experience that come from talking to people who are working in myspace of course every tesla fan says oh well. They're competitors. Of course they're going to say he sucks and like there's not a situation where eighty five ninety percent of people in one business all all or like no that guy crazy like that but that's not just random talking about the same time i think he lon justifies in his mind is it you gotta think big you kinda. This is how this is the silicon valley way and i think this is what you talk about throughout the book and what really the thesis is is. There's cars in silicon valley and the silicon valley way which is too big where you're gonna have that next year but that's not a vehicle michael. It's transporting people at sixty miles an hour down a freeway and so there's a little bit of a disconnect and i understand that <hes> as i like a ferrari if you buy a ferrari you know and and it breaks or whatever it's it's okay. It's it goes with the territory you buying something yeah but if you're if you're replacing your honda accord with the model three then that's when you get the problem so you you've heard bad things about the chevy volt. I'm curious now worried. We've we had a couple of months ever bad things tesla owner who loves but i tell you what i don't want to ever buy another another gas vehicle. I i think i love electric cars. We put solar panels solar city. Thank you ilan on the roof. <hes> i came real close to buying the big battery pack but i haven't done on that yet <hes> but i like the idea that plug in the car into electrcity. I've generated yup that i hear a lot it generally speaking people people at who who have have owned tesla's very rarely say like oh. I really liked this other electric car o i c say hey you know people get their identity wrapped up in tesla and elon musk and this mystique and it becomes very hard to say you know while actually i really just want a car thus before point eight to point b. and if it's not the sexiest most cutting edge thing ever then you know that's not the end of the world to me. That's a tough transition to make so i admire meyer your ability to be pragmatic about cars because there are like i said there's that emotional component in that image component and then there's just the reality of you know. This is a tool that needs that use certain ways not saying. I'm not getting in line to buy porsche ticon. I'm not saying that as an attractive. That's what's changing changing though isn't it. I mean th th this market for years. I when i bought my tesla three years ago. I was just me. I we tested owners would wave at each other because we were rare. I model threes everywhere in northern california everywhere all the time. There's three in our parking lot right now. So that's changing. I'm seeing more and more electric vehicles from a traditional. Oh manufacturers in a couple of years test is not commanding special. Yeah that's the that's the one one of the risks right <hes> if they don't if they don't blow themselves up with this full self driving thing or something like that <hes> that the competition is coming tesla fans like to say you know oh well you know the jaguar pace audi e tron you know they don't have as long as they basically they look at the things that tesla does best and they say well. You haven't beaten them at the things they do. Bass the reality ideas and that's not how competition works the the opportunity that the competitors have our people. Maybe like you who loved everything about the design and engineering of the tesla but did not like the quality problems and did not like the service issues and the you know the time it took to get. I didn't have any problems. I was just word cloud selmer the c._e._o. Of porsches says that almost all the priorities for the porsche taikang electric vehicle are from tesla owners. Oh absolutely and it's even you know i think anybody who can put out a car. That's eighty percent as good as as a tesla in terms of like speed and performance and range and all that kind of stuff <hes> if it's if it's only eighty percent is good on all those things but it's got the reliability ability of of a mainstream of banner yeah at the end of the day. That's what people are going to gravitate towards plus. You know the porsche badged kind of does have a certain cachet sure 'cause back aways <hes> great book really interesting topic and <hes> yeah. It's you had a lot of sources pointed out at the beginning. Nobody would let me use their name because everybody's terrified of ilan's retribution <hes> <hes> but i think this is the <hes> honestly bound most balanced book. I've read <hes> we had ashley vance on when his book on the tesla came out which is also another great read but this is much more and fascinating ludicrous the unvarnished story of tesla motors and we just scratched the surface. There's lots to talk about in this <hes>. If you want more of ed's insight don't forget the tana cast which is his <hes> autonomous vehicle podcasts at thomas tana cast dot com. I'm also senior senior editor at the drive dot com at the drive dot com. Don't forget thank you. I'm sorry i didn't mention that really a pleasure having you on it and a great subject thank you and i'll i'll keep you posted on my experiences with other yvette vehicles because you know honestly i probably will never again by tesla. Maybe the more why but probably not i just you make the perfect point which is this is not a toy. This is how i get to work and <hes> and it has to be reliable. I have to be able to get it repaired. I have to know that the motor isn't their best effort than it actually works. Yeah absolutely no thank you. I'm it's so it makes me so glad to hear that. People don't want to hear both sides of this because if you're on twitter you don't always get that iraq or or read it is worse you know <hes> and i follow all the electric vehicle in the tesla separates and it's really interesting to watch the flame moore's and you kn- you know <hes> people come down on one side of the other. I think you've done a great job of of balancing it and trying to get to the bottom of it as as befits a good good auto journalist. Thank you so much appreciate it ludicrous. You can get it now on amazon dot com we do triangulation. We tied to do it every friday around eleven thirty a._m. Pacific that's two thirty a._m. East coast time that's seventeen thirty u._t. If you wanted to watch it live live just tuned in go to twitter dot tv slash live. You could watch listen as we make the show but for the most part it's a podcast people consume it on demand and and you can absolutely do that just go to our website t._w._i._t. Twit dot tv in this case twit dot tv slash t. r. I it's on youtube you can actually the best thing to do is get your favorite podcast applications and subscribe and that way you'll get it because every week. It's something different something interesting some of them. I think the biggest brains and technology the most interesting stories <hes> so i hope he will come back each and every week for another triangulation. Thanks see next time aw.