Leadership Insights for Healthcare Innovation with Tobias Silberzhan, Partner at McKinsey Berlin Office
Hey everyone saw marquez. Here have you. Launched your podcast already discovered what a pain it could be to keep up with editing production show notes transcripts and operations. What if you could turn over the keys to your podcast. Busy work while you do the fun stuff like expanding your network and taking the industry stage. Let us edit your first episode for free. So you can experience the freedom visit smooth podcasting dot com to learn more that smooth podcasting dot com to learn more. Welcome back to the outcomes. Rocket saul marquez. Here today i have the extraordinary privilege of hosting dr toby s sealed saab. He's a trained biochemist and manala just is a partner at mckinsey's berlin office and the focus of his work is healthcare innovation to be as leads the global health tech network a community of five hundred plus digital health startups and. He hosts the med tech arne industry roundtable and to pharma r&d industry roundtables with mckinsey. Germany tobias leads the my experience initiative that helps colleagues improved their health and wellbeing by better nutrition sleep fitness and stress management to be his married and lives in berlin with his wife and two children which is where we're Connecting him from today to be as such such a pleasure to have you here on on the podcast today. Saw thanks for having me absolutely. So we're gonna we're gonna dive into a lot of the the work that you're up to in mckinsey but also outside of it. I mean you. You just have such a great present in the healthcare sphere globally but also in europe and so i'd love to first of all get to know you a little bit better and for the listeners viewers to get to know you better. What inspires your work in healthcare. Well saw on the one. Hand being biochemist immunologists. There is a there is some professional background connection there that that got me Got me into the healthcare industry on the other hand by my inspiration. Undermine my motivation comes largely from my my personal story. i lost Several family members to cancel when my father died of cancer for years ago and then most of my children were bomb and it felt like halftime in my life. Right to i had a father for the first half of my life and then the second top of my life. I'm a father myself and done and that halftime period felt very much like What do i want to do in the second half of my life and what what worked why find meaningful right too long story short. I decided that. I would dedicate my work entirely on healthcare innovation and to healthcare and The question how improvements can be achieved and innovations being promoted in the health system. Wow while you know sorry to hear about your dad to be as you know. It's it's never easy and then your kids came which is a blessing. And then this is. This just becomes kind of like the center point and your new trajectory and so you're you're on this journey to improve healthcare healthcare innovation. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing and feel free to to focus on on the many organizations that you're part of outside of mckinsey are inside. Mackenzie like take this where you want to take it. And how are you adding value to the healthcare ecosystem. Yeah maybe to talk about the song since i work on. On innovation topics with medical device companies from companies digital health startups and health ministries across europe. See that often. There's a lot of opportunity around scaling scaling of health innovation and 'second area. That that i think is a very important area is what would the health system of the future. Look like right. As a combination of digital and non digital offers an example in western european countries the health system already has more than one hundred interventions available to deal with such widespread disease like diabetes if we simply pack on the novel twenty five or fifty digital solutions will probably not improve the well-being off off patients are unhappy very helpful to citizens instead. I think we should think about how we want to help. Citizens to live healthily in the future. And how we think about the target image of our health system more like Managing health and rallo than Waiting for people to become seeking trying to help help fix the problem right an esa company. We are trying to add value in these areas. By working very much on health care the multidimensional opportunity right the not. Just wanna mention four things first. We very much look at the value perspective of health and also healthcare nation rights which these days is a lot around health so for example. We look at When we look at the twenty five main digital health categories will look at things like what value would be the health solutions to a health system if they are fully implemented and looking at both from a patient outcomes perspective as well as from a health system perspective and day healthcare economic perspective secondly bringing in healthcare analytics and and these days importantly the the industrialization of health chat analytics to play so In that sense our hell catalytic unit comes from formula one car racing. They bring a huge focus on performance speed in formula one at you need need data engineering to took it back to your deliver something within days or weeks right note in years so on so in that sense it's not enough also to develop certain use cases right. It's more about production. Izing these cases managing these are algorithms deny in a smart way then Also design is is in my opinion a huge thing for health. Count you people know about that right but am in. the last. Few years of my company has become one of the top. Ten design firm saw a globally both in terms of industrial design for physical products. I m but also then design of janis digital services so might designed colleagues in sweden. Trust helped design a Ah such robot for example for which they. I just wanna read. Don't design a walk and thing is is really to bring it all together if you bring gave value focus and a analytics capability and design capability altogether right on think about it sort of how would it work in the in house system. And what capability building do you need to do. And how to some of the incentives on the economics change to make it really work. That is sort of what i'm excited about. And what what we trying to work on. Yeah that's really that's really interesting and to be as you mentioned. There's a hundred ways to manage diabetes like throw another twenty-five. How is that even going to guarantee that you're hitting the mark with the value you're trying to deliver high. Is it going to guarantee better. You know health for people better return on investment for employers. These are all questions we need to be thinking about. Very cool thought process here the three pillars value analytics and design. I think it's It's certainly something that we could probably learn more about from you so talk to us. About how the approaches you guys are taking make different than what's available today and you know some examples there would be nice. Thank you happy to talk about that salt. I think i wanna start with the practice of the campus. That i spoke about it in the first question right but the purpose of our company right. It's a it's to help create positive and enduring change in the world and that is pretty much the underlying thinking that'd be one country and from from where we are coming and we work on digital health rights as an example. Be that look at is Underlying value that. We just talked about and to do that. For example we we built a model that that looks at more than five hundred publications in the digital health space academic publications we looked at. What's the published evidence. The impact of the solutions with map with the healthcare spend categories in various countries to be able to say what is the underlying value that for example a patient remote monitoring brings to a health system on a patient perspective level but also on a health system financial perspective for a country like drama anywhere. I'm from that would be a three point. Three billion euros than tele-medicine would be another category. That's where we are sort of trying to ground everything into the value and that is deliberate in the health system and then nothing but the second thing that that i often feel is different is Thinking about it sort of beyond the current silos so a lot of people these this year talk about health care ecosystems happy to use the term but at the end of the day right for me. The question is how can we. How can we achieve behavior. Change both of the patient and citizen perspective on also behavior change on assist system the providers obedience health insurances in that respect. I i find it helpful to think about these ecosystems and john needs right to when i look globally so i currently see united not in sight simplified six main archetypes off of healthy ecosystems being built there sort of the the pharmacy primary care ecosystem right. Wha wha Like companies like so for example in europe are combining pharmacy with primary kassovitz. That something that has been two separate silos that. At least in europe's since the ages reddin than there is sort of archetypes. Bill combining primary cow with secondary cast. Solutions the archetypes. That combining health insurance with primary castle like what What for example. Being honest doing In china and that is actually an interesting approach from my perspective when i think about these healthcare ecosystem types ave better or could they be better in in creating that behavior change by the number that i always find fascinating. Is that the german physician. Spend on average eight minutes without patience right and then thinking through could we design a journey or an ecosystem that actually that actually helps the citizens and the patients to change behavior toward small healthy choices and didn't in many case examples. I would say. I'm pretty motivated. Patient icon changed my my behavior sustainably after eight minutes intervention or or station with the doctor let so in that sense thinking about it more from a journey perspective on putting it the other way round. What are the touch point. That does he just like saw Has over the years from a health perspective than how could be support him to make healthy choices along these touch points right. I think that is different. And i find helpful chore to achieve that that change. Yeah thanks for that to be as in You know you mentioned the couple models all of them involving primary care. You know this. Focus on primary care compared to specialist care. You know like think is is something that we're all becoming more more cognisant of the importance of it. And you also mentioned the importance of not just having those touch points those eight minutes having that continuity the continuity of care and that's where the difference is made so i appreciate that. How has what you guys are doing. Improved outcomes or or made business better right so these are some of the insights. How does he translate into the into the day to day. Well you know. Most projects as as to noah are confidential. But i'm happy to say that you know for example. Twenty twenty those post quite a lot of in health cab with the with the covid nineteen pandemic and i think they have digital health is a beautiful example of how digital health has actually saved people slides and i've seen that firsthand how digital health and how precision medicine can save lives. So that's why. I'm motivated to bring more of these benefits to help us if we use covid nineteen thousand example right. I just talk about the pilot project. That i find pretty cool in the uk they out people use haitian remote monitoring for the management of covid nineteen patients. They called it. Virtual waltz and if people are interested that they can look a brief article about it in the british medical drama and one pretty much the objective of that Of that project was was was twofold. First of all trying to spot complications really really early and be able to medically intervene and help these patients so and then the second objective was to have a tool or a digital health solution. Raw that enables the doctor to continuously monitor that patient instead of having to make a. Yes no decision the moment that this covid nineteen patient presents s. We run from some of the cases in in march. April writes a lot of patients in such a situation where it to be hospitalized because the doctor failed out this is sort of my of off covid nineteen patients that i see not quite sure how this will involve. The patient doesn't look good so let's hospitalized. Patients will be on the same side right. And if you apply patient remote monitoring to covid nineteen patients you actually have have a few very interesting effects on the one hand when patients submit the. Let's say body temperature oxygen saturation in the blood and Let's say Around breathlessness and breathing problems right if they submit three times a day then you are able to respond complications reading early. Just quoting the number from the publication two hundred and forty four patients where in the very first initial highlight kovacs and zero of them died. And i think that it's a remarkable result especially since most people seem to be talking about telemedicine and other with nineteen related tools. But i personally very excited about this This results how patient remote monitoring can actually help. I did then. The feedback that i hear is on the sides. Doctors like the sort of the the feeling of safety and security that such a digital health solution can give to them because they know the patient might not be looking great. But i don't have to hospitalize the patient right away because in three four five hours i get the next reading and when deteriorate instead in very very early saturday evening sambas where patients with covid nineteen had complications onset plaza including pulmonary. Embolism and even those patients could be safe because the doctors sawed really early and could could intervene also. The patient feedback is extraordinarily positive. People saying that You know they fell off them and finally. Finally if you're if you're just apply that to a health system view right and sort of this. Autumn wind talk at least in the northern hemisphere. This awesome window situation that we have now think about the other. The doctor looking after covid nineteen patients. Right in your sort of dashboard in front of you where you can. Easily in prioritize way look after one hundred hundred patients in the feedback from doctors is that indus prioritized list of patients where the patients with the highest fever on those oxygen. Saturation is at the top. You can about ten minutes and then you scroll through your list. That is sort of the live feedback that i found from doctors down anyway. So that's a bit of the year. As i very excited devout and of course that doesn't that is much just limited to covid nineteen right to all sorts of Diseases could benefit from remote monitoring both in the covid nineteen space then can envisage as remote monitoring a safe pathway for people with copd pd grosses on college to have that lifeline to the doctor and sometimes got interrupted in spring. But some of the doctors in this program actually said while this is so cool can actually use it also for just a non covid nineteen patients. Yeah you know. And that is exciting to see the application of remote patient care to other things outside of covid because a lot of times these chronic diseases that need continuous management. Just get those episodic you know visits and then you mentioned clinician safety and i think you know. The concern of clinicians safety has been has been elevated due to the pandemic the use of digital technologies to manage prioritize. And sometimes even control a monitor remotely could be very useful so you know. This is certainly an exciting time having the right model to approach this environment. It is critical. You've given us some high level examples obviously with the short time that we have today. We can't go deep But you've given us some good glimpses into some models that could work as companies and organizations and providers address some of the challenges and opportunities today to be as what would you say is one of the biggest setbacks that could be experienced. Maybe something that you guys went through. And what was a key learning that that came out of that or that could come out of that. I think are quite a quite a few learnings. i would say with digital health. I've had setbacks both on a on a sort of system level and as well as a A personal. And if i start with a system that have a lot of the setbacks explained by who owns owns and who owns the money today digital health solution of this innovation is addressing right. It sounds like a almost a shark. Tank dragon stan. Kind of western. But unfortunately it it is very true because the healthcare economics how they said today are sort of incentivizing certain behaviors incentivizing on the citizen level on the position that abbott on the health insurance lead in that sense when i work in digital health solutions. We usually look at that right there. We on the one hand look at the underlying value of the health system as we talked about a reform on the other hand we look and sound of the economic incentives. The economic flows earning. Watch for which type of activity in that sense. I think also how people in europe and sort of on the european continent cowardly thinking about it right which has been part of the healthcare innovation roadmap for europe for years from twenty twenty two twenty thirty some of the setbacks from the pasta. It's been very hard to implement. Things for incentives to question has now become an read. How could health economics and health hit. Incentives also be adjusted in a way that we actually promote hells to instead off. Try to fix disease in that sense. That has been some of the segments that i've seen in the past but also wear i'm hopeful that some of the discussions that are happening to da day about future health economics future healthcare instead of actually promising and and much needed. And yeah. i think if. I think about it on the more personal at one of my own setbacks that i had as its and wass my own realization a few years ago how i personally dealt with health regimen how i dealt with my health and how i dealt with stress and i realized that it wasn't very sophisticated and i have and you know i started carrying about stress management and how it relates to health and your own personal situation about five years ago when i realized that i had i felt like they had a wonderful life for wonderful wife. Wonderful wonderful job right. I worked on things. That are really count on you. Don't trust me. Feel quite stressed on the day to day level and i had struggled with what we could describe as recharging my batteries i was brought up with the principles that you i finish your work. Then then you relax might but what if a at least my perception at the time grunk never ends do is always cool things that you can do right abused as part of your work sort of digital health health ovation projects outside of work at center on the pasta that i worked very long hours. I slept too little then felt that the next day and so on as you know. I'm a biochemist saw. So then i also looked into this topic from a scientific perspective and then you find that. It's pretty obvious right. Negative sleep for example directly correlates with stress and feelings openings. Zayed you right. So it's a religious site of it is yeah it you know i appreciate you sharing that i mean i. I feel like as busy professionals. We we all go through it and You know and it's normal and we have to stop and we have to evaluate our own personal routines you know. I was working with the with the trainer for a long time. And then i stopped and then i just notice myself gaining way and before you know it you know like three or four months. I'm like okay. Get back with the program you know and saw it certainly is challenging and now cova did layer in the kovic challenge on top of that it does become more challenging appreciate your openness to schering some of those things to be as you know i think you provide a good example of what it is to be able to manage a lot but yet still get some good sleep. Enjoy your family while you're at it so to be as you know i really appreciate you sharing The challenge in you know having to take care of yourself better. Had you do it like what did you do to solve it. Good question for me. It's been a journey right. An and to be honest still on the night. You know i improve at least try to improve as i as i go along if i think back five years. The first thing was that i am. I stopped working with a with a coach. I personally sort of so. I as a initially as a stress management tropic read so that I started experimenting with the with meditation. And that was actually a huge game. Changer for me. Initially i was quite skeptical very much. That person you know. I i lived in my head right for me. It was always. What's the story in my head kind of situation then. I realized through meditation so that there is actually so much more right And for people who are really good at thank probably stop laughing but the for me. It was the realization of okay. There is sort of the story in my head and then there is sort of the emotions underneath and then underneath the emotions there is sort of the body's sensations right at so in my example that would be you know the story in my head would sort of go on go on right then. I would become aware of that. Extra be there is now stress. Anxiety isn't underlying emotion young right And the body sensation connected to that and at least for me and walson and and still is a very tight knot in my stomach right when i realized that right. That was already a big step forward for me. When i also realize that when i meditate a nice stop thinking about positive things like for example having my son on my daughter my lap sitting with me on my lap or so that i could really feel how that tight not in my stomach started the releasing right and that wasn't a bit the start of the johnnie also gone into into improving my sleep been particularly speed right said also digital health magadan with wearables and You're not to cut a long story short today as sleeping more with a healthy amount of sleep and it's incredible how this change has paid dividends red. I'm happier person. I feel like i'm also ba. Da husband and father and also feels like man. I'm most successful at work. This is actually. Let's to actually be also being asked to lead the program that we in at mckinsey called my experience. A program where i'm happy and very excited to do healthcare innovation within our company. I it's a program that pretty much helps people be at the best and that means that includes a lot of the things related to health and wellbeing that we talked about it and thinking about your path intrudes sleep fitness nutrition stress management anxiety management right. And i'm very happy to lead this program for from mckenzie. Germany and see the positive impact at this program has on individual companies and also the company as a whole. That's awesome. toby is and you know it's it's great that you didn't just stop at yourself right you. You went beyond and sat. Wow like meditation and better sleep. Distresses me. I want to share this with my team and so kudos to you for doing that. That's a that's a great story so let's take a step back here and look at you. Know the the economy the world the business. What are you most excited about today. This this of course. I'm excited that hopefully There is appropriate being made on kogas. Nineteen independent but beyond. I'm very excited about some of the wax that colleagues have done. It's a study called prioritizing. Health was done by a think. Tank the mckinsey global institute and then my call it that Healthcare from a different leads. They found that that it would make more sense to think about health and health town as an investment robina costs to be controlled and managed down one. And what makes me excited about is some of the things that they found some of the messages that come out of it which i think on a great messages for most people working in the in the health industry and an odd concerned an interested in health and well being more broadly first they found that using interventions that already exists today the global disease burden could be reduced by about forty percent over the next two decades forty percent by again applying what we have already today if one translates in terms of life expectancy and more importantly i feel sort of what is the amount of life you have in. Good health They they pretty much found that pretty much sixty five. The age of sixty five would be the new fifty five. If you're if you realize the health improvement opportunity didn't that of course would be a big deal because today at least in a lot of the western communities than countries life expectancy you often steal increases but additional life expectancy is life. You're being in poor health right whereas course everyone is much more excited about additional life years being spent in good health i heard it called health span versus lifespan. Yeah exactly yeah exactly completely agree if things about it that respect from a sixty five would be under fifty five. I think that's an exciting and very positive. Message the message that that got me extremely excited about this study is that forty percent of these improvements could be delivered at less than one hundred dollars for each additional life year. So that says there is sort of a lot of value on the table right and it's not like crazy expensive value on the table right. It is affordable value if looks at it from a health of them intervention versus kind of love and i think that is another very promising saudis when things about health and wellbeing from a mall from system level and then finally the. That's actually what i find personally. Most exciting is really thinking about health and healthcare from an investment perspective if you're Lead on in the country thinking about healthcare as a an investment budget regiment. And they are. They found that pretty much. Every dollar invested in health count in that way would have a return return of investment offer. Two to four dollars. I think that is something. That's very exciting. Because in the pasta just been very much that discussion of healthcare as that cusp backers but healthcare as an investment and we. How do we wanna live our health and well-being An how do we wanna think about. Healthcare investment in health to economics thing to serve as a hugely exciting topic not to be s. I think it's a good call out you know and In investment is a better way to look at it It's the health of a nation. The help of a of a region certainly contributes to the wealth of that area. And so i think it's a it's a great call out. You know the marginal investment as about the call it costs. I mean one hundred dollars per person per life year for a forty percent improvement best cheap and why not you know and so for those of you watching this and listening to our podcast today. It's certainly something to think about. You know these approaches and how we could tackle some of the largest challenges in our current healthcare environment you know to be as is bringing up some great points for us to consider and also challenge your model challenge your model because there's an opportunity to do more to do better so to this is awesome. I've i've really enjoyed the discussion today. And and the insights you've provided. And i'm sure the listeners and viewers have to before we conclude. I wish we could spend another hour together. Here but Obviously you know. Maybe we'll do a part to if you're up for it but really before we conclude give us a closing thought and the best place where the where the audience today can get in touch with you and the people on your team to continue the conversation of something today resonated with them show happy to him. I guess for the closed closing off. Just wanna come back to what is so many people's mind these days out. Can we manage covid. Nineteen and how can we actually put something in place that can help the us the physicians nurses. How can we help patients. And how can we can. We save people's lives at coming back to what i said earlier right to. There's actually quite some thinking out down. How digital health solutions such as patient remote monitoring can be can be implemented and can be scaled and a few thoughts for people in various regions cities or countries listening to that there is sort of a whole model around primary care digital health solutions. Well pilot studies have shown that that doctors in primary care practices like. Gp's out patient practices. They can be actually trained on bonded very quickly onto something like patient remote monitoring and this can be integrated also into websites so that patients don't need to show up in person or patients don't need to call in menu actually link that to to Websites have a few triaging questions on which of causes. also that's relevant in autumn winter. Distinguishing bit tweeden. Coa vessels influenza vessels quoted nineteen and lynching linking that to a pace remote monitoring for example download. An app if i just contrast that with that when i just had my daughter tested for covid nineteen few days ago. She's negative so It's been a phone marathon. Until i found sort of the right practice who was then testing at that particular day. It was a lot of paperwork. You'll put actually digitize these janis pretty quickly where you're for example would say the patient goes onto the website and to step postcode than a few triaging questions than the patient. Download the app. This app is connected to that doctor in a patient remote monitoring team who who than Follow up for example. One also imagine for mall central. Your restrictions saw countries to put into place a patient remote monitoring team at a hospital. Does darryl hospitals a few of them in europe that have have patient remote monitoring teams had understanding team pretty much on the leadership. Both professional assault is doing patient remote monitoring than you could do that as some sort of the solution that you have that scale of and can cover different hot spots in in but you could also see assault of a second line of defense where you could say in a certain municipality. There are some marija Being trained on that they don't have the first look after patients initially than if numbers rise in sort of the local passage he gets and you have a few hospital at pace remote monitoring teams that stepping in right not taking over a hundred two hundred five hundred thousand patients like that so in that sense. There's quite a lot of Of knowledge out there. I'm happy to to connect people who are interested in this You know given the time we are living. In autumn winter wave. That pretty much seems to have stopped. Just wanted to put that out there and happy to share some of this Thinking with people who might be interested to be as this great certainly a lot of things for us to think about as we as we conclude here today and For those that. Want to engage with you and you know further. Continue a conversation with you to be. What's the best way they could reach out to you or connect with your team. I guess the most pragmatic way would be to to connect with me on unlinked in where people can just enter my name and company name. Lincoln can also find my contact email and all soviet people twitter election. Find me at the nba. -sconsin basan 'em on twitter to to be as. Hey this is ben truly enjoyable and insightful and Folks just go to outcomes rocket dot health in the search bar type in tobias. And you're gonna find all the links to get in touch with the bs as well as links to anything that we've discussed. I'm not sure to be s. That research article you mentioned is available for public sharing the is it. Yeah it is data to put that into the link. Okay great we'll leave. The research conducted by To be as his colleagues in the show notes so just check all that stuff out there. It's where you get all the synopsis of everything. We've discussed too big thanks to you. really really grateful that you You made some time to be here with us today and Definitely looking forward to staying in touch. Thank you for having me. Hey outcomes rocket listeners. Sal marquez here i get what a phenomenal asset. Podcast could be for your business and also how frustrating it is to navigate editing and production monetization and achieving the roi. You're looking for technical. Busy work shouldn't stop you from getting your genius into the world though you should be able to build your brand easily with the professional podcast that gets attention of patched up. Podcast could ruin your business. Let us do the technical busy work behind the scenes while you share your genius. On the mike and take the industry stage visit smooth podcasting dot com to learn more. That's smooth podcasting dot com to learn more.