Drug Use and Abuse - The Pandemic Within the Pandemic: Sidebar Part 2
At. least. Will perspective. The cases at least increase in the Columbus area I worked for several hospitals in the Columbus area and surgeon the surgeon Dr the doctor saying at least ninety percent of the people here are vitamin D deficient. There's so many links to a level of improvement that they see when people have been taking vitamin D. at least I don't have the background that you guys have them regardless addictions of that or from the hospital perspective is understated how many people are coming in overdosing constantly and the needing some type of treatment and their levels of deficiency whether it be from not probably gonNA nutrients are. I heard actually heard a lot of people saying they can't eat the way they used to because they don't have enough money because they weren't given enough money. So they're used to just going out and getting whatever fast food they can quickly grab when those type when that you know that poor diet couples with health releases a room, the Kobe type of situation it just compounds the issues that would lead to a better outcome with an Oswal. If. You haven't heard about anchor. It's the easiest way to make a podcast. It's free. This creation suits that allow you to afford edit your podcast right from your phone or computer. Anchor also distribute your podcast for you. So it can be heard on spotify apple podcasts and many more. Money from. PODCAST. It's everything you need. In. The. Start. Actually. I to hop on real quick and just go off at that point that Scott made originally about seeking help and that was huge. That was the biggest step I could've taken because for the first year two of my sobriety I was just stubbornly independent I can do this myself with some of the coping mechanisms that we discussed exercise journaling, meditation, deep breathing. All those things were effective, but I felt like at a certain point. I was missing that last five or ten percent I'm thinking you gotTa, you gotTa reach out and talk to other people you know I didn't necessarily go the groups which you know I regret I'm still sober today almost six years but I wish I would have done things like that I still can but really just going to you know counseling found this really great a licensed social worker I went to talk to wit without divulging. Too much had a pretty bad break down towards the end of twenty sixteen miles in Grad school barely got through wasn't sleeping i. just think that was a culmination of me just really not taking care of myself. The first two years I basically gave up drink without really working on my cell fundamentally, you know to the core sauce basically dry and just doing anything about it. So I think that was huge that resonated with me. When Scott said you know really I need help is really like the three most important words you can say if you are suffering from whatever it is mental health issues drinking drug use and that you don't like the a little bit trickier with everything going on now. I'm really glad I was able to do that a couple of years ago. Instead of, let's say I, get to this point this year still haven't sought out any help. I'd have to get a little bit more creative this year to try to find that help see what kind of avenues I can you know travel down as far as who I could see kind of groups I join you know US whatever Internet. to my disposal but yeah, I mean that was just such a turning point for me in my recovery you know it would be a lot more challenging this year. If I was going through that process, you know Scott said earlier something about the stigma do you think that last five percent where you needed somebody else? Do you think the stigma kept you from seeking that initially? Yeah, I would definitely say so it's kind of just you know a ashamed of not being able to control by drinking because I have friends they can socially and I think Scott said something he's like you know I can't stand those people who can just a couple beers here and there and just and just leave it. You know that was never really my mentality or I guess how I was wired I. Don't know if that Kinda sounds cliche but I always thought you know. If. To feels good. You know it's GonNa feel better. So I mean once I got sober. I. Think you know that stigma definitely was there as far as seeing out that help. I, think it's also just me just like I said just being stubbornly independent that was a part of it but I also think there was a shame factor there as well. Just you know how people would react to me seeking help because I have chosen to give up drinking and now living sober so. Yeah I would definitely say that was a part of it. So I wanted to turn it over to you guys and see if there was anything that you thought in any big topics or aspects of this is pandemic within the pandemic that we haven't touched on. Yet we've covered on a lot of big topics, mental health suicide, -ality, and drug use general overdosing things like that but I don't know I just wanted to see if any of you had any thoughts on something that we haven't covered that you think need saying. I'd like to It's interesting. We're always we always seem to be looking to the government to fix stuff. This is one of those things. This is a health issue and I remember when the issue around cigarettes, I was a big cigarette smoker and I'm sure you all know this but you know the the finally surgeon general put that warning on cigarette packs I think it was the eighty s when that happened I'm not really Sure might have been, you know latest nineties but according to science I mean, the tobacco companies knew back in nineteen I think in the seventies that tobacco caused lung cancer the reason all this was being discussed a couple years ago is when when the argument about legalizing marijuana that the forecaster said that the marijuana issue in ten more years or so because there's no longitudinal studies yet around long term use of this, you know the. Powerful marijuana and we talked about vaping it today and with kids. But at the end of the day when you think about it, the sciences there but but we we still do what we do. So to me, it's the informed person who is hopefully going to make you know and I'm just listening to you guys. I'm irritated because now I'm frustrated that I have this on and you know what I'm trying to think about. What I'm GonNa do tomorrow morning I'm going to get up and walk just to spice off. You know because I think it's important and I don't need to call my doctor because if I call my doctor, I, know what they're going to tell me what you're not fruits vegetables. You promise this we have at the chart that like to keep my chart there because they think I'm a good example of what not to do to show. Show. The seniors when they come in but I think it's just. How do we inform people and I I don't think we've found a good way to do that yet and I. I'm working with the the board of Education I got a call last Sunday night. From a colleague of mine sits on the board and he says, Scott, we have a half a million kids going back to school tomorrow we really need your help and I'm like really it's nine o'clock on a Sunday night. You want help with a half a million kids anyway, and you know there's been so much focus on getting kids back into school and giving them that opportunity to socialize and have that you know and and the parents break. So they can get back to work. I mean it's it's a, is it a perfect storm earlier I don't know if that's even appropriate phrase anymore. So I just how do we inform people? That's that's one of the most you know just say, no to drugs that was worse campaign than we ever experienced and I think that we we have to find a better way and I say we I'm not even sure what that means because. I don't want to rely on government anymore I just I think that if the more we look to someone else to tell us what we should be doing the longer we're going to keep doing what we're doing and you know that definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results the stigma. For Me Scott, my belief is that the stigma where we need to start, we need to get rid of that stigma and Portugal did an amazing job of that. A lot of people use Portugal a lot of libertarians that I know like to talk about Portugal Oh they legalize drugs. No, they didn't actually but they did remove the stigma and they did get to a point where they focused more on the rehabilitation rather than the criminalization. And that's where we need to go. We've got to get rid of the stigma. We've gotta make it understandable to have an addiction to the mainstream once the mean stream. Once once the normal person recognizes that it can happen to any of us. Then it's no longer going to be a problem to seek help. It's not about putting out a just say no players or a just say no campaign I I actually bought into that growing up and for me it did make a difference I liked being a part of that but I was the nominally the truth. Is there the numbers are there? It never worked for the maintenance for the masses it didn't work. You're right Scott. But the fact is none of that is going to make a difference if somebody is over here on the corner saying I don't want anybody to know we need them to be able to say to be able to raise their hand and say, Hey, you know what? I think. I might actually have that problem that that everybody's talking about. Bryce finished story and what was the outcome in Portugal because I? It's funny. I was thinking about that earlier. But what was the outcome when they did that? I don't have the numbers in front of me. It was many years ago that I looked at it. But I do know that they had a tremendous success in changing the addiction to the point where people were rehabilitating and not just trying to go around the corner and hide the numbers I've read is they reduced substance use disorders by almost thirty percent. So if you think about that fifteen percent on our country and thirty percent, you know four and a half, almost five percent of five points that would be you know you're talking about. Five percent of the of the population. What is that? I? Don't know fifteen million, fifteen million less people that have the issue just based on that. You know this must that's wrong number but imagine if we could drop it by a point and so no, they were very successful and I've heard a lot of different people you know from scientists to the professors who studied this. That if we could do something like that, but what does it the US has something like four percent of the population on the planet and we consume something like seventy percent of the illicit drugs in the world. So that would be an interesting paradigm shift and I I would. I would venture to think that if we tried something like that, we would have we would have. To be prepared because the first couple of years people would take advantage of it. But at the end of the day I mean again I I ran a nonprofit I worked with people coming out of jail and prison probably close to seventy percent of the people who got arrested in our country in the last twenty years it was behind substance abuse whether the distribution of the Drug seeking over the consumption of and we have these people in prison who you know getting any help them. When they come out, they have the same needs when they went in the different is they suffered from a higher level of genetic thing. So I think our prison system starting to shift a little bit but you're the fact that we have some interesting controversy at leadership level. Right now in our country and we have a congressman coming onto our event. Next month soap, we call it society of addiction professionals and bring these people around because I, want them to hear from the providers. You know exactly what you just said. You know, what can you do to help us if nothing else and how can we help each other and disenfranchisement of legislative? Leaders, unless there's someone you know like was a Patrick Kennedy you know who's experienced it and I just on zoom call with the mayor of Boston who openly talked about his recovery and that's starting to happen. Now, we didn't see that ten years ago. You wouldn't see public figures and now all these movie stars Eminem just announced that he got twelve years and that was. On, social media and I can't remember some of the others that have come out recently, but it's it's it's starting but it's so slow. The the my opinions Japa- late the data over the next ten years it's GonNa. You know we may have maybe a half a one percent improvement but to me that would be tremendous when you look at our population, the Morbidity Rate But you're right the stigma. Unfortunately, he's gotta change for easily there was somebody just in the news the other night talking about you know that's ridiculous. Need to stop. You know it was that easy we would. It's an allergy I mean I can't drink because I'm allergic alcohol I. Think it's Robert Downey. Junior who says it best whatever I did cocaine I always broke out in handcuffs. I was hoping on this topic of normalizing it and increasing awareness and education on the effect that addiction isn't just solely a choice and isn't just something that what you can just stop and things like that can't I was hoping that you could give just a kind abroad brief overview of the brain side of addiction and the impacts that it has on your brain and why the rain model of addiction has come up in, is evidence based and fairly substantiated at this point. I think the brain model of addiction. The notion that addiction is a brain disease. It was really a notion that Alan Leshner championed about twenty five years ago when he was head of the National Institute of Drug Abuse in part to combat stigma in part to combat stigma near the notion that wasn't a moral failing taking drugs. But that were identifiable changes in the brain which there certainly are today there are some critics of the brain disease model who say that there's a stigma attached to happen brain disease, and so they would like to get rid of that idea for that reason. But that's that's another if we think of brain. Models of addiction. There's actually several models of addiction competing theories There's there's no question that taking drugs of abuse changes brain dopamine system suppresses dopamine receptors, and suppresses opiate receptors withdrawal basis in a the tolerance base. This is really a a big a big part of it, but that was the original brain disease model and and the problem with it is that it's clear that addiction doesn't go away. Withdraw goes away. If you stop taking drugs the grant many of the brain changes that accompany heavy use, they begin to recover many of those changes yet the addiction doesn't necessarily go away. So the debates today, there's arguments in addiction science. Whether it's to be thought of as a kind of a intensified habit because there are habit brain systems that. Drugs Act on the dorsal strident or whether it's thought should be thought instead of the kind of craving and our incentive sensitisation theory or is suggested that it was a kind of craving is a kind of craving that any of us could have for things like food if we were starved enough. But in addiction, the neural sensitization changes would create this starvation type appetite. Specifically for drugs and creates that same kind of situation that we would all be if we were starving and creating food if an addict can crave drugs in this way, then it creates a situation. I think that call for sympathy you know I think that's the hope in the brain disease model that does stigma could be replaced by kind of sympathy but there are debates. Yeah I think that it's definitely been a heated conversation for a long time about whether or not addiction is a disease and everything I. Remember when we had I'm blanking on what classes I think it was abnormal psychology, abnormal psychology, I, remember and. I think was Cognitive. Neuro. Yeah. It came up in both of those and I remember in especially in abnormal psychology they asked specifically, she pulled the class basically and ask you you think addiction is a disease or not, and it Kinda surprised me the number of students in the class that sided with it not being a disease and even after we discussed it at length in the class and you know and talked about both sides of it that there was still a a substantial segment of of the class that didn't agree. And I think that you see that a large scale in in the country right that these are people that even in a college psychology class, you see the split at imagine the general public. That's what is even larger will only to be fair to the Anti Brain disease, folks I. Mean there are there are legitimate arguments that they make such as that being an addict it's compulsive in the sense that can never be controlled. It is still subject to punishments incentives in such, but that's the nature of craving. It's that's the nature of compulsion I think Scott earlier suggested that addiction is a little bit like diabetes and I think that's a great analogy because that's a disease in which there's no holes in the brain there's no holes in the body type two diabetes. There's no lesions is not a disease in the sense of of damage to the body, but it's it's a is a disease in the sense that insulin resistance develops and. Crowd a couple of small parameters in physiological mechanism just get altered a little bit with devastating consequences and it can be partly dealt with by behavioral. Diet Control Means Addiction has a lot of these same similarities. We can identify brain parameters that are different and persistently different and that don't go away with withdrawal when withdrawal goes away if you don't take the drugs for a long, these changes still stay in and they have these kind of changes. The less just one less I. Once heard an argument in the courtyard of the Dalai Lama's monastery in the Himalayas. It had been a meeting on craving. It was an argument between norval call was the current director of the National Institutes of drug use and Mark Lewis who's a critique critique of critic of the Brain Disease Model And has written books and published many articles in New, York Times, and other papers around the world criticizing brain disease and mark was saying. Don't call it a brain disease. Why do you call brain disease these changes in the brain there so subtle, they're not holes in the brain. And Nora I think made a good a good counter replied that specific to the United States and our medical system for providing help and funds for I'm trying to and research into addiction. She said if it's not a brain disease congress isn't going to fund any kind of addiction research or addiction treatments and insurance companies. Medical insurance companies are not going to pay for any kind of treatment. If it's a disease, it becomes eligible for treatment in the American system, and that's is not a scientific point, but it's has a certain compelling quality to. When you look at the economic platform that we have in our country. That makes a lot of sense that do do you think it's a disease let's make a little bit of a political reversal on you since you're the expert here. So from what you've learned because he knows the surgeon general believes three years ago came out and said it. After decades of study and you know my attitude is it doesn't really matter but because it's a problem, let's help fix it I if it, you know look I my wife Likes Canterbury Milk. Chocolate bars. and. I watch what happens to her when I bring one home And you know if you were to eat a chocolate I mean we love sees to but now you have to get it delivered but you know this'll be a great time I'm just glad I don't act out on see's candy because I can imagine i. You know I be on camera it'd be awful. But if you eat chocolate every single day talked to people drink coffee. Hey, it's time for you to stop putting caffeine in your body what. You go through withdrawal. So I think that you know I. I I love the conversation but at the end of the day I personally I I try not to take a political position just simply if you drink too much and too much is generally defined as three to five drinks day on a regular basis, you might potentially have a problem with that could be impairing other parts of Your Life but do you have a disease or do you just abuse it? I don't know exactly what's your position? You know 'cause you're obviously you know you're the, you're the new generation that's been studying what has been your conclusion that discussion. So my personal opinion is that it is a disease I think that it's like you both discussed on some level I do think it's different than a lot of other diseases and that plays into a lot of the debate. You know one that I hear often is that you choose the initial use, right you choose to take drugs initially, and so that doesn't make it a disease and I think that I understand where that perspective comes from but I do think that. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a disease like diabetes I agree with that. That's a fantastic comparison on that. You may not choose or you May. He may not choose to get diabetes but you you you choose your diet and your exercise level and that's a huge contributing factor into whether or not you develop diabetes later in life and obesity is another example that is admittedly fairly controversial with Salman whether or not it should be considered a disease but is something that for a Lot of people, it involves a voluntary choice to again eat more or exercise less, and then you know that leads to obesity in comparison, people aren't going around asking people to sneeze in their face right or shoveling bacteria into their into their mouth to induce a disease. So that voluntary aspect isn't there but I don't think that necessarily means that it isn't a disease. I'm glad Kent brought up the the aspects of it with insurance because I think that on a nonscientific but just not. Realistic level if we want to help people if we want to get people to help that they need like you were saying Scott I think that it's not impossible but much harder to do that. If it's not listed as a disease, this is come up with mental health general to you know that the kind of double-edged Sword of stigmatization of you know labeling something like depression or anxiety or any of these things a disease or a disorder because on the one hand, it stigmatizes it. Leads to potentially negative associations with the person you know if if they think that Oh will now there's quote unquote something wrong with me that I have this diagnosis able disorder, this diagnosis disease. But on the other hand, it allows them to get treatment allows them to get help you know because insurance companies aren't gonNA pay for it if it's not. So yeah. I, guess, broadly, my stances that it is a disease I know that it's different from many other. Diseases and they're still a lot of research that needs to be done to better understand it. But yeah, I think that personally I would consider it a disease Zach. This is Bryce I want to caution everybody who's listening from diving too deep into whether or not it's disease and here's why medically and with the government yes it's a it's a big question and it needs to be answered eventually but when it comes to addiction and whether or not you have an. Addiction whether or not you do something about it and how and what that is. It doesn't matter whether it's a disease or not. You still have a problem and I'm not saying you do if you do you still have issue it still has to be addressed and we have to know how and why and right now there are ways whether it's Steig nosed as a disease or not. We have the ability to help the problem with our society right now. Going, back to the stigma, is that too many people are is debating about whether or not it's a brain problem or morality problem and the people that are out there having this debate a whole lot of them are focused on that morality thinking that somehow it's just gonNA magically disappear if everybody understands that morally we just need to stop and that's just not the case and we when we talk about it publicly as whether it's a brain disease or morality disease. I think we just give amunition that. Let's just stop focusing on that and get people to recognize that there is an epidemic throughout the United States of people abusing and using substances that don't need to be, and we need to figure out how and why. And work on that not whether audited disease but a not trying to take away from the medical issues or anything else I just WanNa make sure that people listening. Look if you need help you need help. Don't worry about whether it's disease or not, and one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about this is because I had a breakthrough, my own life. I told you earlier that I had a knee surgery. When was in the military I was told that I had some problems with my knees I had pain and I. It went to my shoulders and I had a whole lot of problem with joints and I focused so hard on trying to figure out what this unnamed disease was. That was causing my joint problems when all I really needed to do start exercising I still have pain and I still have problems and they're. Possibly still unnamed for whatever it is, but it doesn't matter what the name is. The exact figured out that if I start exercising and I focus on that, my folks son staying positive, it doesn't hurt as much. So I want the same thing for all the people out there that are struggling I want you to focus on how can we help you not whether or not you have a disease? Absolutely that's a great point and you know I think it's important that people just recognize that they that they need help. You know you're absolutely right on Scott head dropped his number earlier I wanted to give the listeners one more just in case anyone listening is going through any of these issues or is having any kinds of pandemic related spikes in their own drug use or or in general, not related to the band. So the the number that I wanted to give is the substance abuse and mental health services, national helpline number, and so basically, if you call this number, you can get confidential help that's free from public health agencies and you know and help find some substance use treatment and information that number if anyone needs it is one, eight, hundred, six, six, two, four, three, five, seven. And so that is another resource that listeners can tune into and give a call. If you think that this is a problem that you have again regardless of whether or not it's a disease. There are resources out there and it's important to seek them out or Mike had brought that up earlier that that is incredibly important while I think everyone at this point is brought up that it's incredibly important in but because it is. While the discussion on whether or not it's a disease is important especially from the scientific and the political side of things I absolutely agree with you that it's not. It's not necessarily the most important thing when it comes to getting people help. You know I I I agree with that as well. I didn't know what it was for a long time and when I went into treatment. You know I didn't know anything I just knew that I was depressed and when I drank I wasn't depressed. And I that triggered something for me you know and when I said, well, you need to stop drinking I'd stop drinking on start taking cocaine. Gambling you know and there's other things in sex. Same thing for some people you know and there's all kinds of issues around food but food we have to eat. Food we have to eat you know at the end of the day It's that going back to that inform piece you know for example, if somebody broke their leg. You know there's no way they're gonNA go. Oh honey. Let's get on Youtube and figure out what happened here and we'll we'll fix it. Now you know you're going to go to the emergency department and they're gonNA probably take an X-ray. And that's organic. That's what people do. It's the same thing. I mean if you're finding yourself dependent on anything relationships or or worker you know and it's funny I remember having this argument one day with somebody who was a triathlete and they go is spend eight hours a day getting to be the best I can be. What else do you do in your life is eating sleep. And I remember his significant other call me one days I. Think he's addicted to physical exercise and he won't stop. Well that wasn't healthy. When. He once he understood you know it was just part of his life. I go to meetings and their scientists says people go to meetings every week stand up and introduce themselves an alcoholic in an attic and we're that's that's self reinforcement of negative thinking I mean something people think that perpetuates it. So I I agree with you know the you're listening today. If you're not sure go online, there's a quiz you can actually take, and if you're not sure you don't like the outcomes of the quiz get on the phone call somebody find out and especially. This environment and most people they don't start drinking at age three something goes on in their life and that's the untreated trauma learn more about that in the last ten years and I ever had my whole life and people who suffer a catastrophic event, a loss of a family member. Those things can contribute to a lot of behavioral health issues that if not treated will manifest itself another ways and when you look at the suicide rate in our country right now it was an. Increasingly more you know we're just now starting getting ready to serve veterans. We got in network with a provider to help veterans in what they suffer. Don't anything that happens if somebody if it if it goes untreated, it gets worse not better and you can't just flip a switch and go I'm no longer going to feel sad. You know I'm no longer going to feel depressed. It just doesn't work that way what the body minded souls not not made up. We talk about gut health and our treatment a lot and that's you know how do you feel good as a person? What does that look like? I can remember working with people coming out of prison and we used to have guest speakers come in and go you folks you need to go get an education got go back to school so you can get a good job you know and they'd leave we decompress and we chatted down debrief and. Fascinating to hear from people, I don't even know how to go to school and sign up. So we started putting people in a van taking them over to the community colleges hand holding them going to the office, showing them how to grab an application, introducing them to the intake person, and then once you give people the tools, most people really appreciate it and I don't really appreciate it. They want to be independent but they don't want ask for help and I think that that to me is that to me is going to be one of the biggest stigma eradicators we can. Come up with and then making it easy for people to to ask for help I mean our emergency rooms are full and they're it's nea go you know there's a white line now for people that are overdosing and they're on medical, they're subsidized by the county and historically when they go there, they're not giving their stabilized again three hours you know a little IV saline solution, maybe a valium and send them on their way. So we're not even treating it effectively in my opinion and I remember having an argument just last week with somebody about the difference between treatment and recovery. So I again I liken it to other things and there are a lot of different things that were impacted by as a human race, and then then there's hereditary piece our parents give us this or that we're predisposed could be cancer could be diabetes. It can be you know stunting growth can be loss of hair I mean those things obviously don't kill you but they affect people's self esteem and they had to some of the shame based decision making processes. So getting people informed and making it an easy conversation, it shouldn't be that hard to say and I agree it shouldn't you know is A disease disease, it comes up in conversation and I personally for me believe I haven't my folks had diabetes cancer skin cancer in my family. So I go I go the dermatologists get checked out. I go to the dentist because I want to prevent make sure that I keep my teeth as long as I can and I wanNA dance it my kids weddings. So that's why I practice some of the things I do and again you know if I can get into I don't think I ever do a triathlon but you know that's okay I can watch the youtube videos and simulate with them too. That's my two cents. I'm hesitantly hopeful that this pandemic will open up the conversation a little more on health in general on addiction and things that we've been talking about. You know they're the things that need discussing things that need saying and I think this pandemic has given us a great opportunity to bring these issues to light into talk about them more openly and more freely. Unfortunately, it hasn't been happening quite as much as it probably needs to. But but it has been happening more I think than it was pre pandemic at least for some of these topics and I'm hesitantly hopeful that that will continue in an increase over time especially. As we learn more about these things, I wanted to turn it over to you guys. Again, I just wanted to give you one more opportunity to bring up anything that you think we've missed anything that you think needs saying that we haven't said, and in addition if you have anything that you would like to plug as thank you for contributing to the conversation, we want to give you the opportunity to do that and so and if not, then that's okay too. We'll all go because I have to go make dinner and I was going to have a chicken sandwich bryce but I'll take the bundle, save it for tomorrow. Anyway Scott Silverman please call me and one of our. Guests tonight when guys on with US give me a call. Let's talk about that. You know your future thinking about what's next if I can be of service. I can always be reached at six, one, nine, nine, nine, three, two, seven, three, eight or your crisis coach Dot Com you can always reach me they're just Google Scott Silverman and your listeners I you know I I dare people call me and I put my number out publicly all the time and I'm an SME here in San Diego and my first book was called tell me no idea and It was written about how to go from not yes. Because you know when you grow up and you're told you can't this you shouldn't that you're not smart enough or not tall enough that contributes to some of the shame based issues at some of us. Just you know we adopt and I learned my study with my book that seventy percent of the people that are told, no, they stopped there the. Other. Thirty percent would try to pivot and make a paradigm shift but only ten percent of those will actually go forward with their you know James wishes and hopes. So I really hope that people will call and realize that you know this issue we're discussing it's treatable. There's hope and there's help out there and I'm willing to do whatever I can be part of the conversation and you know I had. A busy couple of weeks and I didn't have to do this today and I'm really honored to be part of it because I think it's important to have the conversation and know that you know I can be resource for anybody family members those who don't understand it players kids against six, one, nine, nine, nine, three, two, seven, three, eight, and I I dare you to call me, I, do or text me. Thank you guys very much for the opportunity and good luck to all those of you're on the panel tonight and I appreciate your input and sharing. I got motivated tonight with some inspiration I hate when that happens but I'm gonNA. Take advantage of it because you know you never know who God speaking through. Thank you. Absolutely, thank you, Scott, thanks for joining us and for offering your your expertise in your perspective on all these issues. I'll share. This is Bryce I mentioned earlier I own a travel agency. One of the reasons why I own a travel agency many ways the primary reason when I left the military I was lost and I went into deep depression. I didn't leave of my own accord I was medically discharged. So I didn't plan to leave and like many other veterans is struggled to find myself I the military was everything to me, and I didn't know anything else. It took me many many years to understand that one of the things that was missing the most was. Change. In the military there was change all around me all the time especially with me being in the Navy I was sailing around the world I finally found that through personal travels and studying abroad when I went to school and I recognized that that was what I needed for me that escape Ding away periodically allowed me to come back home and refocus. So for me I had to get away and then I could come home and I could get back to work. So I ended up opening a travel agency to came and I bought a cruise planners franchise more than twenty five years old. Fantastic company I own the website www dot food and wine crews planners, dot com I know that's not necessarily appropriate for an addiction podcast. But alcohol is something that a lot of travelers do like. So we talk about that I would encourage you though that. If you ever do need to go for travels in, you need somebody who understands don't hesitate to contact us, my wife and I run the agency together. All you have to do is mentioned that you're in recovery and we will take care to make sure that any place we send you is going to be appropriate and we're not going to encourage you to go places where you might struggle with your addiction. The one other thing that I would tell you is if you do want to just kind of virtually escape, we do podcast of our own. It is a listed at the top of the website. You just have to click on podcast it's called Travel Tuesdays for fans. Again my name is Bryce and my phone number is four, zero, seven, four, five, four, six, three, three, six. Thank you great. Thanks Bryson. Thank you. Thank you for joining US tonight and for offering your expertise in your perspective. It was super valuable and great. I have nothing to add really except that it's been interesting to listen to the panel members. Thanks Zach and good luck to anyone watching. Thank. You can't thank you for joining us and offering the little bit of the scientific and addiction side of things and explaining the the brain models to to our listeners. throw a couple things out there. One Bryce I lied I'm going to have a chicken sandwich I'm sorry I. Thought about it. I'm going to have the Bun secondly just so you know my my podcasts called Over happier and I named it that because that's when I did most of my biggest drinking is happy hour and I think it's kind of spin on stuff. So sometimes, I gotta do we gotta do to market ourselves. So as it starts to grow and get out there anyway I want to echo again you know what you guys are doing. Awesome. Keep it going and then let me know if I can be resource for you guys anytime and that's that's all I'm GonNa say I'm done. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on. Zach. Again was really. Informative of great listening to all the all the panel members gave me some things to You know think about and I really want to follow up the disease. Conversation. But that'll be for another time just because I'm really curious about how all these dynamic factors Kinda take play as far as like. Genetic social cultural things like that. But that'll be a follow up discussion another time with you with narrow case. But knows it was. Good to be on and I. Just want everyone to take care of themselves during this time as we move forward that's about it. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely, thanks for joining us. Mike as we close. I just wanted to offer you all everyone who's listening right now different plugs of our own So Mike said, they're definitely things that we haven't touched on in this conversation and that it's impossible to touch on in the short amount of time that we spend talking about these things. For this episode for others, we do have a couple sources that we plan to use to continue these conversations. So we are on social media we would encourage you to follow us on their. We're on Reddit facebook, twitter and instagram and Tumbler. Another place that we are trying to move into is discord. Sow Discord is typically a message APP for gaming but. It provides a really good format for us to continue these conversations. So if you download the discord out and then message us on any of our social media, we can get an invite link out to you. Basically, we have separate channels set up for every single conversation that we have every episode, and then hopefully it is still in the works were still attracting you know members and people to to discuss these things. But the hope is that that will be able to serve as a platform on which we can continue these conversations afterwards and touch on a lot of these things that either we didn't have time for or we didn't go as in depth as some may may have liked. And so hopefully, we can get that going to another thing that I want to ask of our listeners. So we are also on Youtube currently, we post our videos to youtube, and since we're typically audio, only we just have the audio wave up there. But what we are hoping to do in the near future is against streaming live to Youtube facebook in twitch, and maybe incorporating video along those lines. So we really want to encourage you to follow us on twitter and on Youtube so that we can hit the hundred subscribers count on Youtube and the. For twitch so that we can have a custom url and posts recorded video on twitch that way we can get these discussions out there to even more in and spread the word a little further. Last thing I'll say is that we really appreciate all of the support and that we grow most from word of mouth we are still a relatively new podcast and because of that the greatest way for you to help us continue to have these important discussions is to share with a friend that you think would enjoy these conversations that we've had whether it's this episode or previous ones that we've had. And then that way they can not only enjoy the discussions themselves and enjoy listening to the podcast but maybe then have a snowball effect and bring even more people in. Typically. These panels aren't the only format we do. We also have live episodes where we'll talk more broadly about a subject and instead of bringing in specific people, we open up the floor for the for discussion for anyone and invite anyone who is interested in. So if anyone is interested in taking part in a live discussion in the future, feel free to email us at, say what needs saying podcast at gmail.com and we can add you to our invite list. So from there will call it a night I. Think we had a fantastic conversation and we touched on a ton of different topics that are super important today and unfortunately not being talked about enough. But one last time just to for our listeners to have the resource the S. A. M. H. S. a national helpline number for those that need it is one, eight, hundred, six, six, two, four, three, five, seven. and. Thank you all for listening. We'll call it there and have a good night. Thanks for listening. To this episode, please remember to like subscribe and leave us a five star rating. Also you can follow us on twitter at say what needs and on instagram and facebook. Saying for live updates and soundbites from my actual. Don't forget to continue to discuss. Thanks for listening. Thanks.