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Simon Says Murder

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True crime brewery contains disturbing content related to real life crimes. Medical information is opinion based on facts of a crime and should not be interpreted as medical advice or treatment. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to true crime. Burry I'm Jill and I'm dick your favorite podcast TV shows make life more entertaining exclusively. For podcast listeners. Natural firm is offering ten percent of their already low prices so you can listen to and watch your favorite entertainment from the comfy cozy spot. There is your bed. They also offer red carpet delivery, so you can stay on your bed until they come and remove it to sit up. You knew one that is right up my alley don't have to move hardly. Head to mattress firm dot com slash podcast right now and save ten percent with the code podcast, ten. Beck in nineteen ninety nine is it Grimes was a freshman at Palmer springs high school in Colorado Springs, Colorado. He was a quiet kid who liked to read, didn't have many friends, but early that year, he Medicare's Matic high school senior named Simon sue. They shared an interest in chess and video games. And Simon took the younger nerdy Isaac under his wing. Simon asked Isaac to join his club, which he called the show a are a the operations and reconnaissance agents for a young boy desperate to fit in with others hanging out with Simon and being invited to join. His club was resistible, but the club moved on from harmless activities like chess, to plotting triple murder. Simon took Isaac in classmate, Jonathan Matheny to a local range to practice shooting weapons. Then he ordered them to kill ISAACs, former best friend, Tony, ditched your and his grandparents in cold. Blood, Tony, Carl in Joe indenture were all murdered on New Year's Eve, two thousand. But as details emerge, the truth about the suspects in the motives were unclear, did Simon sue brainwash the two younger teenagers or were all of the boys equally responsible? That's what we'll talk about. It's a good topic. Yeah, lots to talk about with it Ruth. So for a beer, got a nice Colorado beer brewed in Fort Collins, Colorado. It's Dell's p. a. by Odell brewing company. So I've had a few of these since we've moved here 'cause they sell a lot of Odell down here in New Mexico. Pretty nice beer. Good brewery, their IP as an amber colored beer. Nice Whitehead, some very beautiful, lacing nice to look at greater Rome of citrus and some sweet malt and the taste performance perfectly grapefruit. Some are Inge all over a base of caramel mom. They're nice, medium body, easy. To drink seven percent alcohol by volume. So maybe not something you're gonna drink a bunch of Wentz, but within reason Shah. Good. It's going along. Well with your pain medicine isn't. It seems to be so dick broke his foot yesterday out walking the dogs and was nearly attacked by three wild dogs or three dogs on the loose. They did have callers, right? They did. I think they had escaped from someplace. But they were coming towards our dogs and dogs obviously were interested thighs trying to get them to behave, get the other ducks chased away. And I stepped off the curb, I guess the wrong way out and it hurt, but then I figured, okay, just twisted the ankle little bit. It's fine except I didn't sleep last night hurt so much. None of us state. Nine. Oh, that. Such a good patient. So we go to the or this morning and find out. I broke a bone in the foot and I'm wearing a boot. So right now I have my foot up on a barstool at the quiet end getting some ice and taking my pain meds. So if I start sounding a little weird blame it on the beer in the pain med while, yeah, we'll keep an eye on you. We'll keep you safe. Okay. Let's open up the spear. Okay. Okay. I'm gonna let you start our story while you're still very alert. Okay. We'll see how you do at the end. So is a crimes in Tony Dutcher had been best friends in junior high, but their friendship ended in their first year of high school. This is after Isaac began hanging around a senior name, Simon, sue. I successor Liz age eighteen hated Simon who was classmate. She thought he's a freak in a forensic class. Simon had bragged about how his godfather who taught him how to break in enter and how to be a sniper. She also believed that Simon and his friend. John machine has slit her car tires when when she was visiting a friend, so she's not real excited about Simon now. I don't think she wanted Isaac hanging out with this guy. He's trouble. It would turn out that he really was certainly did elicit confronted Isaac about it tires, which Custer three hundred dollars to replace, and she had paid to replace them with their own paychecks. Their father was out of work with a back injury, and their mother was struggling to pay the bills. Both is can live had during their own spending money. They also had two younger brothers who they spend hours babysitting. So a little bit of stress in this family. A lot of stress. It really seems like they were having a tough time. You're anytime you starting to depend on your kids to support the family financially? Probably not a good thing now. It's gotta be really tough. Now back at Horace Mann junior high school, Isaac in Tony Dutcher had been inseparable. They dressed in camouflage. They played military games and they plan their futures. They were going to be special agents everyday at lunch. No matter how cold it was Tony and is a gate outside the cafeteria door. This was their way of toughening themselves up. They shared their collections of military patches and pins with each other is grand. Dad was retired from the airforce and Tony's was a Vietnam veteran. I six month made him stop wearing camouflage and talking about weapons at school during the eighth grade when the shootings at Columbine happened and that was just sixty miles away from them. It was April. Twentieth nineteen ninety nine. If you remember when airi'q Harris and Dylan Klebold killed twelve students and a teacher, then they turned their guns on themselves. They also built bombs in Clearfield garage in fortunately, these. Failed to detonate Earl out of more people would have been killed. So for months after Columbine boys like Isaac in Tony reviewed as potential terrorists by the time, Tony, Isaac entered high school Palmer had ramped up security over the summer between junior high and high school. Isaac baby said his brothers. He mowed lawns any helped out at vacation bible school. So he seemed like a really nice kid. Liz is older sister had told him about high school and how crowded it was and how you had to find your classes in the idea of it, scared Isaac who was socially awkward. He was in Latin class with Tony, but Tony had a new best friend he would find out. So he felt lonely like an outsider, and that's another. He was approached by Simon, sue. Yes, I'm a couple years older than I sick, but they were in the same Latin class, and there are some schools still teach. Let. Well, they did at least then this was still a while ago throat. So Simon, asked Isaac, if you like to play chess wells. A matter of fact, I love chess. He played with his sixth grade teacher, Mr. Lowell until the teacher died of a heart attack about a year earlier, his only thirty two and he died. So in this happened right after his grandfather died. So he was to hit extra hard to those doses of grief. He's going through a lot for a young kid is so Simon was known as as one of the best chess players in the school. So I was really excited to play with him, but their weekly chess games lasted only for about a month. Simon had other interests he began share with icing. It began teaching is about the political situation in Guyana, the small South American country where Simon's extended family lived in as we all know probably. This is also where Jim Jones that tragedy happened. With the people's temple was called her believes called that, yeah. So there's some history there to share. Isaac was impressed with everything. Simon knew about the military history of the country. He was even more impressed when Simon told him that he was a secret agent in a paramilitary organization. The o. a. r. a. operations and reconnaissance agents were ready to serve. If a coup should arise against the guy in his government, just the People's Progressive Party. Simon showed Isaac in another student, Jonathan Mathie, any photos of himself dressed in military uniforms. He also showed them videos of his father's home, engage Hannah. His father had Guyanese coins, an extensive gun collection. Isaac had seen his grandfathers hunting rifle, but Simon's father, Keith sue had a collection of semiautomatic and automated weapons also machine guns AK forty sevens. So this wasn't like anything he'd seen before. He was well, armed wasn't a crazy. Now, Keith sue would say that he was a collector, any made money off of these guns, which could be valid. But me personally, I don't know if that's a great thing for a kid to see in his house course. That's just my opinion Isaac soon pledged his allegiance to the RA any promised to serve under Simon is the group's intelligence officer. So this was flattering telling him he'd be the intelligence officer. So instead of playing chess, most Wednesdays, respect, assembling, and disassembling weapons, or shooting guns at the public gun range. And John was usually with them after John turn sixteen, he drove them wherever they needed to go. So at first it was fun. Being a soldier in Simon small army, then Simon told Isaac to help John robbery, which he called a raid. The target was the home of gave Melker appall Mer student who had been Simon's friend until their relationship soured. The purpose of the. Was to steal guns. That would become part of the RA stash. Isaac was scared. Any tried to make excuses for why he couldn't participate, but that really enraged. Simon, Simon told Isaac that he was in too deep to turn back. He no longer was allowed to make his own decisions. So Isaac signed an oath to follow orders, and he did as he was told did then over the summer between is expression of more years, he was promoted to tenant Colonel in the, oh, a RA. He was required to type up expense reports and turn over all his money to Simon. So he worked at Carl's junior fast food restaurant than he also baby said his little brother's on a report, typed up that you lie. Isaac noted that he had been issued five weapons, including an assault rifle and a bag of pocket knives. The report noted that the knives had been seized from the home of another former friend of Simon's. This. Was a kid named Aaron Daij. So it seems like these rates that Simon sue was setting up or just kind of personal vendettas so far those an end robberies, of course, these are people that used to be friends. Maybe they were also in his paramilitary organization or something or refused to join where refuse to join or quit something share. But the aroused, the wrath of Simon is experienced, didn't know anything about the weapons. He kept them hidden in his room. While Simon was away vacation with his family guy, INA, Isaac became careless with the group's money. So Simon return told Isaac that he owed him two thousand dollars for the OA RA. And this was a lot more than what is it can spent, but he really couldn't argue, he's in this position where he supposed to do as he's told. And then he was also put on probation in the fall of his sophomore year. Isaac was still on probation, and his weapons had been taken away at the same time John had been promoted. So this kind of shift in power here, Simon was angry at Isaac. Any criticized him for being the weakest member of the group for his going from her Colonel second in command in this group to being the low man on the totem pole? Yeah, but it almost seems like this Simon knows some psychology the way he's work in this. So he must've been intelligent where I think he knew how to work these kids. Absolutely. Yeah. In mid December. Simon went with his dad to visit his uncle's house in Canada, and John. Was left in charge in Isaac had to make him aware of his whereabouts at all times, John was given specific orders that arrayed was to be made and Tony ditches grandfather, Carl Victor for months, John, and Simon had told Isaac that they knew his mother's route home from work. And if he tried anything and didn't follow orders, John would kill his mother. So here he is. He's been demoted under scrutiny by his comrades, right? Yeah. And they're threatening the, we you better do it. We tell you to do otherwise. We know where to find your family. We're going to go after your mother, and let's remember this is a fifteen year old, right? Yeah. Who is is already kind of into this stuff anyway, even before he met Simon? Yes, very much. So very much into wanting to be in the military and being agent a lot of fantasizing about that sort of thing. So I was given the plan for the New Year's Eve Ray. This was when I was going to be taking place that day. He would work as usual until five. Carl's junior, John would drive to work and we pick him up afterwards. Isaac was gonna tell his parents that he is having New Year's Eve dinner with Simon zongol, Lennox, sue after work. He and John would call Simon in Toronto for instructions than load up his car and drive to the debt. You're. House. Now a few nights earlier, John had driven with Isaac to plateau route to the ditches trailer home indicates out the place at that point is a kit pretended to forget the way they're saying that the roads were too dark in confusing. But this proved to make Simon angrier and he was reprimanded over the phone for this. Isaac, of course, did know the way in November is a kid given directions to Keith sue Simon's dad as he drove him to the ditch your house to pick up his hunting rifle which Tony had stored there for him, Tony and Isaac had been planning a hunting trip together before their friendship kind of fell apart. So I'm had interrogated Isaac about Karl Dutcher and his views. Yeah, back in November November are could told him that he had bad memories Viet nam and he didn't like oriental people. Simon had not like that. And he said that he'd heard Tony duchess, father and uncle were drug dealers. Is very critical of the family and said the Carl had probably raped Vietnamese women when he was over there during the war. So it seems that this point he just really hooked into the ditches and was throwing all his hate in that direction, right? And started plotting, this is gonna take care of. So Isaac was ordered by Simon to design the rate for the dishwashers. And first Isaac presented a botched plan hoping that Simon would change his mind. But when Simon saw that plan, he yelled at Isaac any hit him, you're lucky, he told Isaac, we were going to take you over to Johnson, shoot you. So now he's threatening his life as well as mother's. That's right. The second plan which was designed by Isaac and approved by Simon was to go to the dodgers with John or risk being killed in having his family killed Simon, showed Isaac the sniper, hiding places he'd staked out in his front yard where he could easily shoot Isaac sister Liz, his little brother. And his parents. So New Year's Eve, it was one thirty in the afternoon when John pulled up in six driveway, he was on his way to work. John was gonna, drop him off and pick him up. When work was done. I six mother, Donna Grimes got home from work around midnight on New Year's Eve, and I wasn't home. She woke is six father. Rob told her that he had not heard from my sick, but Tony called earlier one in a when I sick would become into his grandparents house. He seemed to be waiting for him at released under the impression that I was going to become into place makes sense down near that Isaac was no longer close friends with Tony, and she also knew that he had left for work that day with John Matheny. So no one from Carl's junior had called. So she knew he must have showed up for work that day. So around nine o'clock in the morning on New Year's day, Isaac arrived home with John. He claimed that he and John visited their friend Glenn urban after work at Carl's, and then spent the night at Johns because his mother's pissed and worried, Mary worry, you know, she hadn't heard from this woman has got a lot on her plate already before all this awful stuff even happens. Isaac was pale into shoveled and he apologized to his mom for worrying her and Donna asked him why Tony was expecting him and his grandparents the night before, but is it just answering that question your he didn't know about the phone calls from Tony to his house now, so Donna, she's working her husband's on employed in constant pain, and she's trying to get some kind of normalcy for her children, but whatever hopes she had for that new year of two thousand one would be crushed. Is who is this guy? Simon, sue? Let's talk a little about the guy behind everything. Whether you thinking he's the mastermind who brainwash is kids or just happened to pick onto vulnerable youths, whatever. He was just a little guy. He was tiny, really for a nineteen year old guy, five feet throwaway about one hundred pounds. He was handsome though, like his older brothers, Kevin, and Marlin one who is a marine. The other was planning to go to law school. I am was close to his mother Najah and she believed he was special, not like her other sons. In many ways. He was funny and quirky. It didn't have a driver's license, but he had John Mathie Nita driving around wherever you wanted to go. And he's still like to help us. Mother cook. Her curry dishes is close to his father also. But in a different way, Keith, his father was not affectionate and could be pretty tough on his kids, but he taught Simon the importance of making money. He was a gun. Actor and he taught Simon about the resale value of guns is also small like Simon, but very muscular and one of his hobbies is working on car engines in their backyard, Yemane even a little bit more than a hobby because he was constantly fixing cars and he had a yard full. So it was another way to make money. But Simon was quite charismatic in usually the leader in any group of friends that he was in. He had a hard time reading and paying attention in his classes. One day in kindergarten, he was sent home because he brought a real machete for show Intel, how horrific would that be win. The principle called his parents, though they explained that it hit been a gift from Guyana in. He was very proud of it and after all, he is just a kindergarten. Well, just the idea that he has access to it is what would horrify me Hieaux did this kindergartner get his hands on it through sitting there in the house very least. He could Chapas little fingers off terrible. Then there was another time in elementary school. When Simon took a classmate home and showed her his father's gun collection. And she later told friends at Simon, told her, she'd better learn sleep with a rise open, but seemed like he was kidding, but it certainly made her uncomfortable, I would imagine. But more than anything, Simon was really proud of his heritage. His parents had immigrated to the US from Guyana before he was born, he enjoyed chess any was one of the best players at the school. He often beat chess club champions from other schools. India also taught younger kids at the community center had a play, but nothing interested him more than the violence, whether it was random or organized according to his friends. The things on Simon's mind the most terrorism revolutions weapons in power. And despite his small stature, he was considered to be a bad ass. People watch themselves around him. Mostly he could exploded. Anytime seems like at so senior year. Again, he's older than the other kids. Simon spent has after noons with Isaac, Grimes John Mathie in Glen urban, he had gotten to know these kids in school, and he knew their skills and weaknesses. Simon had recruited each of them to the, oh, ARA telling them that his father had been a top agent who had retired from the organization. According to Simon the, oh, a RA was developed Raddad drug dealers do various good missions and support the People's Progressive Party of Guyana. The IRA he told them had to be kept secret from parents and anyone who might get in their way. Well, sure. In Guyana, Simon explained, his father was a close friend of the president. His mother was a member of a very influential family too. So a coup could occur at any time, engage Hannah and stabilize the country and win that happened. They would be called into action. So he said they had to be ready. Any also told the boys that when they left the US and entered Guyana, they would each have a beautiful Guyanan wife. So Simon said that he was already engaged to this gorgeous young woman who had pledged her virginity to him. They had become engaged over the summer when he visited there. So this kind of reminds you of Islam, terrorists and the virgins in heaven. Right, right. Brings that to mind a little bit. Your vote about that Simon claim to hate racist. Even at the same time he frequently complained about the boy. Black people messing up life in Ghana. Racist picked on him when he was in elementary school. So he said, I believe they might have. He was a little different looking could have been sure any small. Yeah. So during the final weeks of the year, two thousand Simon had been focused on the duchess who he saw as racist drug dealers, everything he hated when he packed up to go to Canada with his father. He took a long international telephone call in card in his wallet. He could control Jonathan Isaac from Toronto a thousand miles away. So, like I said, John was second in command, and he was also Simon's driver and he really enjoyed being in charge when Simon win away. He was very serious. Boy. He had a military haircut, and a little bit tricky around the face. His mom Bonnie was becoming more insistent that he starts spending more time at home. So she had some concerns about him. His seriousness in his extra polite behavior toward her made her uneasy didn't seem normal. Besides driving Simon around, John drove Isaac to and from work, and this kept him away from home a lot and Bonnie wanted their Christmas to be more like it used to be back when John was a happy little boy and back then he liked to read or watch movies with his sister. But John, he'd built up a lot of anger for his father Ed Matheny in Bonnie had divorced a year earlier, but they still lived in the same house, Bonnie worked for years at a steady job. But. Ed was floundering and Bonnie was the main financial supporter of the family. So John saw his dad is weak independent and this enraged him. He preferred to stay away from home as much as he could. But John had also had a tough time in school. In the ninth grade, a doctor had prescribed antidepressant medication and John refused to take it. He broke off from all of his junior high friends, and then he met Simon sue. In his sophomore year, he became a regular at the SU house, eating meals cooked by MRs, sue and working on car engines with Mr.. Sue now to John, this felt like an orderly place and gave him some comfort, the o a r a, gave him a purpose and a sense of responsibility concede that his own home life is not great and his Simon's house in that seems to be more stable family. Well, yes, in if we're seeing Simon is the manipulator here he can pick out the kids who need. This kind of structure in are going to do any once your he's picking on vulnerable kids. Now, whether they're at falter, not we'll get into or how much thought they hold. But he definitely seems to be picking the kids that are vulnerable, certainly was, yeah. So Glenn urban who joined the away RA in the fall of two thousand Glenn's nervous kid who hated school, but he's good with tools. They could build your fix just about anything. So Simon asked him if you'd be interested in doing a job for him. And Glen said, sure. Glenn lived with his mom and his younger brother and neighborhood near Palmer where we spent most of his time in the backyard garage where he put together a workshop. Now, his parents divorced when he was younger and he rarely saw his father. He smoked cigarettes Winston while but was not into drugs or alcohol. So driven by John Simon glad wrote around town when lunch hour and Simon told. Glenn, his spiel about the, oh, ARA Glenn was intrigued even though he was skeptical. Now he was impressed with Simon's knowledge of weapon systems jet engines, geopolitics and terrorism. When Simon befriended him and told him he could get him power tools for his workshop. Glenn was excited. So after Glenn signed on with the, oh, a IRA, Simon gave him a new titanium drill bit set Simon's almost like Jim Jones in training. Simon knows exactly how to work. These kids doesn't. He really seem to. Yeah, Glen started out doing odd jobs for Simon and his workshop received more high quality tools from him. He didn't see John or Isaac much over Christmas, and he spent New Year's Eve with his other friend, Anthony. So it seems like Glenn was a little bit more on the outside. He wasn't really in it like the other three? No, he was kind of the odd job guy had fix things repair things for them share or. For Simon and he'd get some new tools, right? Which was a big deal for him. So in the afternoon of December thirty, first two thousand John left his house and drove to Isaac's to pick him up and he dropped him off at Carl's junior at about five pm. John called his mom and told her he was having dinner with Simon's, uncle Lennox, sue as he waited for Isaac shift. And he talked to Simon who confirmed that their New Year's Eve plans to kill the dentures were still on on January third, two thousand one, Carl, and Joanna ditched were found. They were shot to death inside their trailer home in Guthrie, which was a couple of hours away from Colorado Springs up the hill from the home on a rocky, overlook their grandson, Tony was dead in his sleeping bag in his throat was cut all the way through his spine. Investigators determined that they'd been lying frozen there for three days. They've been murdered sometime between New Year's Eve after noon and New Year's day. Sunrise. Karl Dittrich son, James in Colorado Springs had called the sheriff's office early January. Third, asking an officer to check on his parents. The phone had been ringing and ringing and no one had been answering deputies knew that Carl Dutcher was a military veteran and gun collector, and he was also a licensed arms dealer. He enjoying had moved to Guthrie back in nineteen ninety one after Carl retired from his government service job in Colorado Springs. Joanna worked part time at a store that was about twenty miles away from there. And she was well liked by her co workers. Now Carlin Joanna, they'd known each other since they were children in Kansas, and they were married back in nineteen sixty four. Carl had served three tours in Vietnam. While Joanna raise their three sons, they moved to this rural spot to enjoy peace and quiet, but it hasn't been easy. Their youngest son Thai had been convicted of drug possession robbery and numerous traffic via. Relations, middle son, James had done jail time and spent time in the state mental hospital and eldest son, Charles had been arrested several times, and he'd spent two years in prison for drug charge back in the nineties. So the son, James is the one that called wanting someone to check on them. Eighty told the dispatcher when he called the Charles son, Tony was spending the Christmas holiday with them, and no one had heard from the boy either, right? So we've got the grandparents and the grandson, no one's known what's going on with them. Deputy Henry Hessler was dispatched to the scene just past noon on January. Third, when he arrived, he saw a small way pickup parked outside. He ran the plates and confirmed that it balloon to the duchess. No one answered when he knocked on the trailer door and the window shades were drawn has called his dispatcher and has for backup because he knew there Joanna and curl didn't take vacations. So. Oh, he's worried already cars there. No answer at the door, right feeling all around security officer for the area. Klay Briggs drove in from just a mile away. He and has the found the back door unlocked and they entered through the tiny kitchen immediately. They saw feet sticking out from the hallway, then they so Carlina in blue and white bathrobe sprawled across the floor. His skin was gray through the first door on the right has with such Anna in a floral print nightgown her feet research around by a large puddle of blood, and she said wedged against the best. Both Carlin Joanna had obviously been dead for quite some time. They also searched the house for Tony, but only found the duchess toy poodle cowering behind the sofa. So has called dispatch for more backup. 'cause they've just discovered two dead bodies and they taped off the home, the crime scene. So to investigators arrived. And climbed up the Rocky Mountain. Aside to Tony's camp, this is a dugout for it was short log walls in tarp cover inside Tony was laying face down in the military style sleeping bag. Blood was pulled around his frozen head and there's blood splatter on a rolled up sleeping bag. Just a few feet away. Tony's body was turned over and a sleeping bag was unzip. Boy shoes recieving near his head, and his feet were wrapped with blankets along cut beneath his chin, open into a large dark hall. His hands were frozen as if they'd been reaching for his neck with his palms on his chest. Of course, this is a scary event for the whole community and a crowd gathered outside of the property that evening. The bodies were secured overnight to be processed the next morning. So officers had to take shifts watching over the bodies. The families had to be notified that Carl Joanna Tony had probably been dead since New Year's Eve. Eve or early New Year's day. Jenny Vaduz are Tony's mom had been taking a nap before heading to work at ten pm when she received a call from Tony's uncle, James telling her that something was wrong up at the duchess home. So she called her sister Kathy Creech and asked her to drive up the mountain from Colorado Springs to the police station. She had called fabulous TNT's the club where she worked as an exotic dancer and told them she wouldn't be in that night. So Jenny's got a rough life going on to Jennie had given Tony new, watch with yellow and orange lightning bolts on the band for Christmas, even though he'd spent a lot of the holiday with his dad, Charles Dutcher. Tony hadn't been living with her, and he was usually mad at her and she was too exhausted to deal with it most of the time, but giving him Christmas gifts a week ago had really been nice for her. They'd gotten along easily and she'd showered him with affection. And it was a happy time. Jennie had been a stripper since she was nineteen. When Tony was only two, and she had left Colorado Springs for a movie career in California. Then she met Paul Andhra Sar and they were married. They returned to Colorado Springs when Tony was about ten to be near Jenny's family in. So Tony could ever relationship with his grandparents, Carlin Joanna, Charles Tony's dad had been getting his life together in. He also wanted to relationship with Tony, but about a year earlier in the beginning of two thousand, Paul had begun acting strangely. He became a rational and paranoid, and he was diagnosed as bipolar and given medications, but nothing seemed to work. Jenny became afraid of Paul and she moved out. And of course she took Tony with her, but Tony had bonded with his step dad and he didn't wanna leave him. But Jenny insisted then the next day Paul hung himself. So Jenny grieved for Paul, but Tony blamed her. So since. Then there'd been a lot of friction between the mother and son when Jenny last tack to her sign, it was New Year's Eve, and he sounded excited. He said his old friend, Isaac Grimes was coming to spend the night up there at the camp with him. He said that Isaac would becoming by her house to pick up a sleeping bag. Now, Isaac never showed up, but Jenny didn't think too much about that. She was just happy that Tony seemed like he was excited to have his old friend bet. So Kathy and Jenny after being called by the police step to pick up James Dutcher on their way to the station, a detective took Jenny into a private room where he told her that Tony had been killed. She fell apart, of course, crying and a woman from the victims. Advocates office put a blanket over her shoulders and tried to soothe her. Her sister came in and the two women held Janney as she cried. Tony's father, Charles was at work in the kitchen of a place called the bluestar when he got a call from police. Now he had camped with Tony on the previous New Year's Eve. Eve and he was supposed to the night that Tony was killed, but he couldn't make it because he had to work. He called Tony to apologize, but Tony sounded okay with it. He said he was camping anyway. Charles had planned to make it up to him. But now of course, he'd never have a chance to do that. This will be a good time to take a short break for sponsors. 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Let's do that early on the morning of January, fourth deputies, escorted Charles up the hill where he identified Tony's body. If you'd been there with Tony as a planned, his large mixed breed dogs could have protected them. He felt that he had led his son down and now his son and his parents were gone and so huge tragedy to lose a child in your parents, your imagine the guilt he was going to be spending the night with him. Oh, this will haunt him forever. Many big off because he had to work. There's no amount of therapy that's going to get you totally over that. I don't think. Inc, no. So in the kitchen, Charleston, James Dutcher recognized their mothers plastic pill dispenser and so that she had not taken them since midday. New Year's day is speculated that when Carl got up in the middle of the night for a drink or to make coffee around four in the morning, as he usually did, the killer must have been waiting for him in the hallway, the killer must have known call, kept numerous guns in his bedroom. They're not going to go in there and get them. Nope. So normally a rifle in a soft camouflage case was propped up in the corner of the living room. The case was still there, but the rifle is missing his forty. Five revolver is also missing. James in Charles were shocked when they saw the trash bathroom where their mother's body had been found the pipes beneath. The tub had been destroyed by gunfire, and the toilet was in pieces not to mention all the blood. It was horrific. These are horrific deaths is almost like they fired a machine gun or something into their lasted. Away. It was brutal. So the autopsies were completed the next week, and the victim's injuries were recorded. Six bullets had struck Joanna as she hid in the bathroom, trying to hide behind the toilet. One entered her cheek and exit her neck. One hitter front right shoulder and tore apart. The joint one went through her forearm as she held it up defensively one bullet hit her right finger and the bullet that killed her, went through her left breast, and enter liver pancreas and bowel before ripping through her abdominal aorta and spine, and exiting through her lower back to bullets that entered Carl's chest and abdomen shattered four ribs and lacerated his and a Orta, cracking his upper spine. Tony's autopsy listed just one mortal wound, and this was the large deep cut to his throat beneath his chin, from ear to ear, and there were no signs of a struggle. In the case of Tony, someone had snuck up on him, surprised him. You're the reconstruction, was it they had approached from behind that is exposed neck and just sliced. Yeah, it was brewed off it was so in Colorado Springs, Tony's friend, Nathan Hickman was interviewed. Now he had last spoken to Tony two days after Christmas. Nathan had never been to Tony's grandparent's property, but he said that another friend I sit Grimes had visited there before Nathan. Remember the Tony been upset with is about two years ago because he wasn't keeping up with the hard work that was required to maintain the fort that they built. They built this fort together back in the day. So Tony also told Nathan that I can Tony had collected military-type equipment. Tony had told him that ISIS owned lots of knives and a bayonet, but Tony and I could not be getting along very well. Most recently, Tony is the kidnapping getting along. Well, recently later that after noon, the police got a call from Isaac stat, Robin, and he said he might have information on the killings. It seemed that is at Grimes was a common link in their conversations about Tony on Friday, January fifth, detectives arrived at the Grimes house and Donna Grimes answered the door and walk them into their sparsely furnished living room. She introduced them to rob an anti Isaac and two little boys is younger brothers were playing around in another room, Donna and Robin had known Tony since he was twelve and they were very distressed about this. Is it a gang leader? Sat near his mother. In is explained that he had been to the duchess house several times in the past. But the last time he was there, he said was in November when he had come by to pick up his hunting rifle, Isaac said that the last time he saw Tony was at school before Christmas break, but they had called each other few times over Christmas break around two pm on the thirty. First, Isaac had called Tony to wish him a happy new year. He said in Tony headed, bided him up, but Isaac had told him he was too busy, Isaac admitted that they had not been getting along well over the past year, but he wouldn't say what had happened. Isaac was asked if he noticed any of Tony's watches in Isaac said that he had seen a wristwatch with a leather band and it was decorated with orange lightning. Bolts Tony wasn't wearing it, but he was keeping it in his pocket. Now, rob showed the detectives. They're caller ID box that showed three calls received at the Grimes home from Tony at three zero one pm, six, twenty three PM. Mm and seven, twenty four pm. Isaac sister Liz had taken the first call and told Tony that Isaac was at work. Rob answered the other two calls, and he said that Tony had sounded manic. He said that he was expecting Isaac and he was worried about him because it was so hard to find the place in the dark. So I'm not sure about rob Grimes. Was he suspecting his own son or did they just think these calls were important in finding the killer. That's a tough one for me. Yeah, are kinda think he suspected his son had something to do with it, maybe that his son just knew something your, yeah, it does seem that way. There's a lot of lot of stuff that looks like Tony is expecting him. Yes. And really, Isaac doesn't have a acceptable explanation for that in his parents is no who was hanging out with his friend, John right richer, others alibi and that's it per two. So is it denied planning to go up to the dodgers underused eve? He said that he and his friend, John Mathie ni who had picked him up after work had gone to their friend Glenn urban says, and there had hung out in his garage for few hours afterwards. He'd spent the night at John's house. I successfully got home by nine the next morning and spent the day with his family. This is New Year's day. He asked the police left in Isaac into to his room and when rob checked in on him later is it asked his dad if he would fit a pipe in the window because the lack was broken. So you know, you can prop pipe up bright to hold the window from opening and RAB thought will that's reasonable. I mean, Isaac had reason to be afraid is friend had just been murdered. It makes sense that he would be scared. Europe still detectives s Tony's mom, Jenny, which she thought of Isaac. And she said that she knew the boys hidden spoken for over a year, but then Tony told her on the thirty first that Isaac would be stopping by her house for the sleeping bag. And he never came by. They asked for again about what Tony had received for Christmas, and she told them about the wristwatch when detectives interviewed James Dutcher. He told them that he had spoken to Tony New Year's Eve, and at the time Joanna was making chilly for him in the kitchen, and Tony sounded happy. And James said that Isaac was there. For a sleepover when he talked to Tony. Uh-huh. So now someone's placing Isaac at the scene, though he might have actually been there despite whatever else is saying. Absolutely, Yep. So much. I Colorado bureau of investigation agent, Steve Sadar and the DA investigator Leonard post that with robbed on an iso- Grimes that the Colorado Springs police station interviews over the past several weeks with Tony's friends and family had implicated Isaac whom Tony had called repeatedly over the holiday weekend, asking a few is coming for sleepover is expensive, backed up his alibi for the night of the murders, but it was certainly not an airtight alibi. No one could account for ISIS. Whereabouts from five in the afternoon to nine the next morning? Well, one important detail was that Isaac had mentioned Tony's watch. This is huge. The one with the lightning bolts because they knew the Jennie had given her son the watch for Christmas just before he left to camp up at his grandparents. Place if is, could see this watch. He must have seen Tony after Christmas, but Isaac claim that he hadn't seen Tony urban up to the duchess at all over the holiday. So now they've pretty much caught him in a lie. So in this interview with his parents, there is it said that Tony had shown him the watch sometime before school was out for the holiday. He said that he and Tony tucked about having him over to his grandparents place, but Isaac had told Tony that he already had plans to go to Simon sues uncle's house for dinner. Isaac said again, that he had spent the night at John's house and he said that John snuck him in. So there were no witnesses that he was their roots, his and John's words. Yeah, it's down to these two, Donna Grimes chewed called Simon's cousin's house and found out that I wasn't there. So the investigators wanted to know more about why Tony was calling looking for him that night. Something had led Tony. A believe that Isaac was coming up to see him, right. And is it does not have an adequate explanation those not. So investigator post, explain that Tony's camp looked like he had been waiting for someone to camp with him. He had brought a scrabble game, some extra clothing and sleeping bags like he was waiting for someone when Isaac didn't respond to this post, told him that Tony hadn't received that. Watch until Christmas after the time. When is it claimed to last have seen him. So Isaac finally did confess he started out by explaining the politics of Guyana and his involvement with the secret organization called the AARP a the duchess were chosen his targets because Simon thought they were racists and drug dealers. Now, at first he claimed that John killed all three victims. Then posts confronted him with evidence of a coat that was found with Tony's blood all over it. So Isaac confessed that he cut Tony's throat by coming up behind him in the fall. Short while Tony was sitting up and then when you gun down to the trailer, he had witnessed John shooting Carl Joanna Dutcher in the trailer. And that was early in the morning like three or four in the morning. According to Isaac, he had been on probation in the OAR a and he believed if he didn't follow through by participating in the murders, he and his family would be killed. He said he had considered suicide, but then he was told that his family would be killed. If you took his own life. So Isaac was taken to the spring creek juvenile detention center downtown and Dan, rob returned home, and they were given instructions not to talk to anyone about what they knew. Now that night, Donna answered the phone four times and each time it was Simon sue calling an esky for Isaac n each time. She just told him that Isaac wasn't home, but she was fuming. She knew he was behind this or absolutely. So the next day, Simon sues home with searched, his mother Nadia SU, said nervously in the living room is search was conducted and Simon sappy cider officers found a box of gold, Ghana coins, and an academic planner from Palmer, highschool with a page in the back. Resigned had notes on payments made to him from ISIS Grimes. The page was titled probation to the, oh ARA to of Simon's knives were confiscated along with. Loaded assault rifle and thirty six other guns quite an arsenal. It's crazy. Simon was told to get ready to come to the police station, and he agreed cheerfully. He said he would love to ride in a police car. So what's up with this? I mean, he seemed like he didn't think he was gonna get in trouble. Sure. Sounds that way. Did he have some ideas head because he physically didn't do it that he was immune from prosecution true regard? Yeah, it seems like it. So next, the search moved to another house where Keith sue Simon's dad worked in stored various merchandise. He greeted the officers and they followed him inside and the house was filled with boxes. The boxes hit stereo equipment printers, computers tools, speakers, and lots of car parts. Now they opened his gun safe and found numerous guns ammunition as well. And all of his weapons were confiscated and one was the four fifty four revolve. Over like the one stolen from Carl Dutcher turned out to be his. Jonathan machine was interviewed with his mother, and he refused to answer any questions. He denied any affiliation with the OAR a or Simon or any knowledge of the Dutcher murders. So he seems a lot more prepared for dealing with the police than the other ones. He's going to lawyer up. But despite his denials, John was arrested and put in detention awaiting formal charges on his right to the station. Simon was just chatting happily with the police. Then Glenn urban was questioned because he had also been named as a member of the OAR a so Simon was nineteen, and he was arrested in the springs on April twenty six, two thousand one and charged with first degree murder as well as a long list of other offenses blend urban was eighteen and he was arrested on the same day as an accessory for conspiring to create an alibi for Isaac and John and for destroying the murder weapons. So what he had done with the tools that he had was actually cut up the knife and gun, but the pieces in paint cans and gotten rid of them, no evidence surfaced that suggested that he knew about the murders until after they were completed. So he eventually told investigators that he too was working under orders. From Simon and he cooperated with police. Simon, sue was accused of masterminding this whole thing. Isaac told investigators and his parents that the OJ are a training included learning to take apart and put together semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Some weeks, the boys practice stealth guerrilla tactics. Sometimes they shotguns I'm more than one occasion. They watched videotape showing one person killing another by slicing his throat. One time, Isaac said he was forced to gorge on chocolate cupcakes until he vomited. And then he had to eat his own vomit in the weeks that followed the arrests law enforcement agents from the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms. The CBI, the park Canada sheriff's office and the Colorado Springs police department focus their attention on the guns found in the suit houses. They also looked at any possible connection to the Dutcher crimes or other criminal activity by Keith sue. Simon's father and at the rumor of ties to Jonah. Right? But prosecution attorneys didn't present any evidence in court supporting Simon's claims of serving a political faction, engage Hannah. So it seemed like this was all kind of incitements head just aboard kit, creating some alternate universe nor boat necessarily board damaged in some way. Oh, absolutely. Yes. We'll based on Isaac's confession prosecutors got guilty, pleas out of all of the suspects of actually and Simon was sentenced to fifty three years in prison. John received sixty eight years. Glenn, Ben who admitted to destroying the weapons used in the killings accepted a plea bargain in exchange for his testimony against the others. And he was sentenced to a one year work really sentence. Now I read in a couple of different places that it was two years or one year, so I'm not sure which, but he absolutely got a much shorter sentence than the others much shorter Isaac Grimes was sentenced to sixty years in prison. So it's interesting about Tony's mom. She forgave Isaac, and she even offered to testify to get his sentence reduced, which she did in a sentence was reduced from sixty to fifty. But then this reduction was overturned after that his mom said that he was in a really bad place mentally, and he stopped talking to his mother a short time after that Donna Grimes and Jenny Vandross, sir, became friendly with each other, and they wrote back and forth after Jenny was able to forgive Isaac. Now, one thing about Janney as after Tony died, she was drunk driving and killed someone and was prosecuted and convicted of Victor homicide. So she spent ten years in prison. Well, yes, attack about tragedy and a family or. So I also looked up some stuff on age and circumstances when teens are charged as adults. I found it online book called the criminal law handbook. He had a lot on that. So some juvenile cases do get transferred to adult criminal court threw a process that they call a waiver when a judge waves the protections that juvenile court provides to a defendant. So usually juvenile cases that are subject to waiver, involve serious crimes like this or miners who've been in trouble repeatedly. Although being tried in adult court gives a juvenile more constitutional protections, it has a lot of disadvantages including the potential for a much longer sentence and being in an adult correctional facility in most states, juvenile offender must be at least sixteen to be eligible for waiver to adult court. But in a number of states, minors as young as thirteen could be subjected to waiver petition. And we've seen the. This in cases that we've researched reserve a few states allow children of any age to be tried as adults for certain types of crimes, like homicide in the current trend among states is to lower the minimum age of eligibility for waiver into adult court. So that's pretty scary to me. And it's part of the public perception that juvenile crime is on the rise and offenders are getting younger, but I just don't understand it. I think if you're a juvenile, your juvenile and how can the thirteen year old be tried as an adult. So tough question right. So some of the factors, these are some of the factors that lead to a court granting waiver petition. And some of them are pretty obvious that we no one would be juvenile is charged with a serious offense. Also, a juvenile has a lengthy juvenile record, or if the minor is older, like a seventeen year old, if past rehab efforts for the juvenile have failed also, if you services would have to work with the juvenile offender for a long time, and there are some states that have automatic transfer laws that require juvenile cases to be transferred to adult criminal court. If the following is true, the offender is sixteen or older and the charges are serious violent, such as rape, murder. So juveniles subject to an automatic transfer can still request transfer hearing in juvenile court. And during that hearing which is called a reverse waiver or reverse transfer, hearing the juvenile through an attorney. Has the burden of convincing the judge to reverse the automatic transfer and allow the juvenile to be tried in juvenile court, and I don't think that successful out of the time. No. I mean, if you just look at the trend unlikely that is going to be successful very often. So usually juveniles in their attorneys fight to keep a case in juvenile court. But there are also advantages as you said jilted to being tried in adult criminal court. So here's some of the pros and cons for juveniles. Whose cases are waved to adult court? So advantage of an adult criminal court miners have the right to a jury trial in adult court. Most states do not provide a right to jury juvenile court. So there's one advantage advantage because as I've said, I would not want a jury. I'd rather have the judge decide, yeah, but then there's a perception that juries in adult court may be more sympathetic to a minor maybe. And then there's some jurisdictions were dockets and jails crowded, and the court may be inclined to dispose of the juveniles case more quickly and impose a lighter sentence. Okay. But I think they're more disadvantages to adult criminal court for juvenile for. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you have the more severe sentences. You can get your boy more likely to have that and judges. Adult court don't have this wide range of punishment and treatment options that they can give to juvenile's like curfew or counseling, and you're getting into hard jail time here you are and the juvenile would have to serve time in adult jail or prison, which is horrible. Although, I guess a lot of juvenile detention centers are pretty much just as bad, but then you have the conviction in adult criminal court which carries more social stigma stays with you forever and adult criminal courts are harder to sealed in juvenile court records, so it's going to be available to the public. Everyone's gonna know. So most of the information we got on this case of Simon, sue in Isaac, Grimes and gled- urban, John Matheny came from articles in the Denver post archives. There was also a book written by journalists, Catherine Eastbourne. That was titled Simon says, gave us a lot of information. So before we begin our feedback segment, I'd just like to remind our listeners that we do have podcast. Episodes that we make exclusively for our team, tiger members, which are some of our favorite people in the world. If you'd like to get a gift sent to you from us help at the costs of podcasting and get an extra TC episode every month. Please visit our website Tigra dot com. And join team tigr ever right now they're over twenty members only episodes available for your binging pleasure in other ways to help us out our to leave us a review on ITN's or wherever you listen to the podcast, follow us on Instagram or Twitter or participate in our true crime brewery fan discussions page on Facebook. And of course, we always encourage feedback either by voicemail, Email, direct message on Facebook, Twitter, however, you can get a hold of us. Where is he? Absolutely. This episode of to crime brewery is sponsored by ADT ADT can design and install a smart home just for you backed by twenty four, seven protection. This can include doorman service, which is an AT automation that unlocks the door for package delivery friends or your kids where can include turn down service that arms your system lacks your doors and turns down your lights and thermostat at bedtime. This is all controlled from the AD t app or by the sound of your voice. Just visit ADT dot com. Forward slash smart to learn more about how ADT can design and install a secure smart home just for you. All right. Let's go ahead with feedback. Okay. We've got a voicemail to lead us off. This is from Heather in North Carolina, and she has a case suggestion. Wonderful. Here we go. Let's hear what Heather has to say. Jalen dick. This is Heather from hickory North Carolina. Anna finally got up the courage to Conley the voicemail. I just wanted to let you know how much I love true. Cranberry em tamed tag rubber all the way in found y'all when I was looking up information on czar Baker case, since I live about two miles from the house is our lift in before she was brutally murdered. And I think that y'all handle that case exceptionally. Well sar- Baker is a has become are adopted child here in hickory North Carolina. We have a park that we built for her. That's handicap accessible. But anyway, I was calling to refer a case that also happened in North Carolina, and I don't know if you all heard about it. It's about Ray Caruth. He was. A Charlotte, a Carolina panther, and hey, was convicted of conspiracy to commit first degree murder a shooting into an occupied vehicle in using an instrument to destroy unborn child his on and off. Again, girlfriend shriek Adams was shot on November sixteenth, not t ninety nine when she was eight months pregnant. She was following Kara's home from a date and Caruth stop in front of her, which made her stop and a carpet beside of her. And someone shot her four times and she called nine one one and conveyed that she was following Caruth in that she was eight months pregnant. She was found taken to the hospital fell into a coma and her son. Chancellor was delivered bummer to say section. He had been deprived of oxygen. For saving demands, which caused him extensive bright damage and cerebral palsy increase was then arrested lead on all three million dollars bail with the condition that if sharia or chancellor Dodd, that he would turn himself in while Shariq passed away on December, the fourteenth of not ninety nine in Caruth fled to Tennessee where he was found in the trunk of a car in a motel parking lot, and he was defended by David Rudolph the one who defended Michael Patterson in the staircase murder. And as I said, he was found guilty. He was sentenced to eighteen to twenty four years in prison, and he set to be released on here shortly on October eighteenth and he's remained pretty silent through this whole ordeal. But in February, he sent a fifteen page letter to WBZ TV, which is a new station in Charlotte directed toward shrieked as mother and chancellor and. You can look all this stuff up on YouTube. A letter was unbelievable in sarcastic, and the court trial was on Court TV, amfam Brit Watkins, who was the shooter. He really gave David Rudolph a really hard time. So I think you need to look that up on YouTube and if this is a Keisha on wanna do I think it would be a great one, and I love y'all and keep doing the good work. Thanks. Thank you, Heather. When a lovely accent, I love it. So, yeah, I don't think that we have much more to say on the case right now because she went into some good detail there who they're a very good fanatics. Yeah, so definitely we will look into that. You're think priority do their kiss. Okay, true speakers. It's pretty famous. It's always nice to do professional athletes. He thinks, okay. There was a pretty famous case if they could be an interest. Went to do. Okay. Sounds good. So write that down. I got it. Okay. Now that's our only voicemail for this week. I have some non voicemails. Okay, but let's get some voicemails coming. If anyone wants to don't be shy. Don't be shy. 'cause we do love our voicemail, Buick Heather work up your courage and right. So I have a case suggestion from Anthony seat. Please read this. I just heard of the case about Caitlin kindly. This very pretty young girl who is slowly being dumped by her boyfriend. So she poisoned her boyfriend's mother and watched her dice slowly for two days, then puts the poison in a boyfriend's. Car writes a note to the police pointing a finger at her boyfriend anonymously. So the police investigate him and his father for suspicion of killing the mother and find out ultimately that she had planted all the evidence and poisoner boyfriend earlier in the year. Sounds like a lifetime movie. I saw that's crazy. She's twisted but very pretty and she almost got away with it. Well, we know being pretty helps will be a woman helps if you're a suspect right, Justice is not blind as it should be. So just a quickie about this. A little summary of what this case is about. Caitlin kindly is twenty four year old woman who's convicted last November of first degree manslaughter in the death of Mary Yoder. Caitlin was sentenced to twenty three years in prison according to media reports, she faced a minimum of five years in a maximum twenty five years in prison. Mary Yoder sixty years old was Conley's boss and the mother of Conley's ex-boyfriend Adam. She was initially charged with second degree murder and accused of questioning Mary Yoder using culture seeing, gee, why is that second degree? I'd like to know her first trial ended in a hung jury in may of two thousand seventeen. So I don't know why it was only second degree 'cause it was premeditated. Wasn't poisoning is very premeditated. Yeah. All right. We'll look into that one too. It's an interesting one for the nerds out their culture, seeing as medicine. It's used to treat gout in. It's fairly toxic. Okay. The next Email is from cranky and cranky rights. Can you talk about these two cases sometime in Marie? Fahey a woman who was murdered in Delaware. Selena Quintanilla Perez the very famous singer who was tragically murdered in Texas. I so enjoy listening to your show, and I would like to hear your take on these cases. Thanks. All right. So these cases. Have Thomas Joseph coupon. Oh, who was disbarred American lawyer and former Delaware deputy attorney general who was convicted in the nineteen ninety six murder of Anne Marie Fahey his former lover, Anne Marie. The scheduling secretary for governor Carper became involved with the Mary Capanna oh, in nineteen, ninety four and in September nineteen ninety five while still involved with him. She began a relationship with a man named Michael skin, Lynn. She was last seen alive on Tuesday, June twenty. Seventh nineteen ninety six when she went to dinner with Capanna in Philadelphia. Face family, reported her missing on June thirtieth, and after an extensive investigation into her disappearance, the FBI joined in the investigation in July nineteen, Ninety-six in a federal grand jury heard evidence for over a year Capanna. The last known person to have seen her alive was the primary suspect, and he was arrested for her murder in November of nineteen ninety seven that was over sixteen months after her disappearance, but her body was never found in prosecutors were unable to establish the cause or manner of her death. Prosecutors did allege that Capanna murdered Fahey at the house he rented and with the assistance of his brother, Jerry dumped her body in the Atlantic Ocean. Jerry Capanna owned a boat and when it was sold, its two anchors were missing. So did he use them to way down a body on November eighth nineteen? Ninety seven? Jerry was interviewed by detectives and told them that Thomas had borrowed the boat and admitted that he had murdered someone who is attempting to extort him. They. Into stone harbor, New Jersey with the large cooler that contained Fahey's body sailed sixty two miles out to sea and push the cooler overboard. Gary told police that Thomas shot the cooler in order to sink it, but that the cooler remained afloat in the water. Thomas then retrieved. It removes the body rep, the anchor around it. Thomas also esque Gary to help dispose of a blood stained so fan carpet into a dumpster which was managed by third brother. Lewis, Thomas instructed Lewis to empty the dumpsters outside of their regular schedule, and the empty cooler was found on July fourth nineteen. Ninety six by local fishermen. Investigators didn't have a murder weapon or a body, nor any evidence that Capanna hit purchased a gun. However, Panos mistress. Debbie MacIntyre had bought a gun and when questioned by investigators admitted to supplying the weapon to Capanna. Oh, so this was a highly publicized case that went to trial in nineteen ninety eight and lasted twelve weeks. The defense claim that mcentire had burst in. Capanna room in jealous rage upon seeing him and Fahey engaged in intimacy, had threatened to shoot herself and as Capanna McIntyre were wrestling for the gun at fired accidents, killing Fahey currently, restrict it is. Yeah, that's very unlikely. So on January seventeenth nineteen ninety nine. The jury convicted Capanna of first degree murder, and he was sentenced to death by lethal injection in January two thousand six, the Delaware supreme court affirmed his conviction, but remand the case for sentencing because the death penalty was imposed by a non unanimous jury verdict. So in February of that year, the state abandoned its efforts to seek capital punishment and opted to leave him in prison for life without parole. So this next case, Selena Hinton Nina Perez was an American singer songwriter spokesperson model, actress and fashion designer called the Queen of Toronto. Music, her contributions to music in fashion, made her one of the most. Celebrated Mexican American entertainers of the late twenty th century billboard magazine named her the top selling Latin artists of the nineteen nineties. So media outlets called her the to Hanno Madonna for her clothing choices. And she also ranks among the most influential Lenten artists of all time in his credited for catapulting the music John Russia into the mainstream market. She was the youngest child and she debuted on the music scene in nineteen eighty as a member of the band. Selena, a Las Tinos, which also included her elder siblings. She began recording professionally in nineteen eighty two so side for music. She was also active in her community and donated her time to civic causes. Coca-Cola pointed her spokesperson in Texas, and she became a sex icon. She was often criticized for wing suggestive outfits in light of her comments about being a role model for young women on March thirty. First nineteen ninety five. She was shot and killed by. Joe Lando Sullivan, you're her friend and former manager of her, Selena, etc. Tease sell. The VAR was cornered by police when she attempted to flee and threaten to kill herself, but was convinced to give herself up and was sentenced to life in prison with a possible parole after thirty years. Two weeks later, George W Bush governor of Texas at the time declared Selena's birthday Selena day in Texas. So this is the person who was played by Jennifer Lopez in nineteen ninety seven Selena receiver movie. We might have a long time ago, but I didn't really remember the story behind it her. She was a pretty famous person. Yeah, and young young, yeah. Okay. Well, that might be worth covering Kirby a, why don't you read the Email the next one from Danielle, then yo p has a case suggestion. Hello? Jill and dick. My name is Danielle, and I am a massive fan of your channel. Thanks. Daniel. Here's a submission idea for upcoming episode, nNcholas consuming, and Stephanie heart griselle had survived. The Columbine massacre yet were murdered not even a year after the tragedy. I'm shocked never heard of this. We haven't. This incident was left nearly completely out of the media and has many interesting obscure details. Thank you for always providing fascinating, and we'll documented podcast always looking forward to the next shocking story. What if you found out about this case stick? So I was looking around trying to find some info and I found some stuff on America's most wanted fan Pige the case had been aired on America's most wanted in March of two thousand one a year earlier, the bodies of sixteen year old, Stephanie heart and fifteen year old. NNcholas councilman had been found in a subway sandwich shop in Jefferson County Colorado and Stephania come around midnight the previous night to pick up Nicklaus where he was working towards the end of his shift. Her boyfriend who is your boyfriend. She had snuck out of her home and came to get him. Now witnesses described a white male age, sixteen eighteen. Years, leaving the restaurant through the back door after midnight. He's never been identified. There are a few possible motives identified. In this case, I is the murders were drug related as the area has been prone to drug activity. Second could be there was a case of jealousy and the third is whoever's responsible for the crime committed because the subway restaurant was a few blocks from Columbine. Now in this type of thing, they're all right, but the at the same time, the people writing on this fan page said that they do not want conspiracy theorists coming on here and saying that the murders were connected to the Columbine high school massacre. A lot of conspiracy theories for that. I guess if you're going by the witnesses, it so this person leaving the restaurant, all three possibilities could make sense. The also could have been a robbery gone wrong. Something else was interesting. Those lawsuits filed against the owner of the subway shop that he might have been turning back to drug dealing. There was going on there. So one of the lawyers on behalf of Stephanie's mother said that Nicklaus may have been using marijuana at the time of the murders. So there's there's some credence to the drug related theory, but it's an interesting thing. I know that the inclination would be to say, well, it must be somehow related to the Columbine massacre, but it's unlikely. Just an awful coincidence. You're okay. Well, I'm surprised it never heard about that. I think it's correct in saying that it really didn't get as much media attention as you would expect, unless I'm the only one that missed this Mr. to. Okay, so this at least the two of us to missed it. Okay. Go people, listen to us and and have all sorts of ideas of interesting cases we down. Keep coming up with these things. Right. Okay. You're next. Okay. So case suggestion from Cheryl Anne. Hi, Jalen, dick, I'm a new but instantly loyal fan of your podcasts. Actually, yours is the only true crime podcast. I listen to. I enjoy the lively banter between the two of you. You have found a great balance with Jill playing devil's advocate in dick representing the rest of us. What is that true? Of course. Oh, okay. I thought I was just voicing my opinions, but. Okay. Well, this is Cheryl ins. Take on both us thought provoking. She says, intelligent and highly entertaining. She's one me back corker pew. I have to case suggestions. I think you might like mic and may read Philpott are serving time for arson, murder in Devon, England, that is all I can say here is there is not enough room to tell more and there's a story you really have to feel to believe, yes, feel we've done anything in England lately we haven't even when you get into this case, I think that something's going to tweak you a little bit. You wanna do it. Okay. Oh, yes. So you have some notes here on it for me. Do okay. The second case is Leonard lake incite kick Charles, and these two journey to a level of depravity. That's hard to describe in words from theft to murder and Epson. Lutely everything in between. Thank you both for all the work that goes into your podcast, and I look forward to more so Michael, Mick Philpott and I think we have talked about him before actually was a British father who was found guilty of causing the deaths of six of his children by our sit in two thousand twelve and Philpott, who had made several media appearances because of his benefits funded lifestyle, which in the US we would call that welfare and poly-amorous relationships was sentenced to life imprisonment for their manslaughter. He had first come to prominence in the British media as a result of his large family because he had fathered seventeen children by various women, and he'd been relying on state benefits in may two thousand twelve fire killed six of his children, one of whom he had not fathered at his home in Allenton derby in April two thousand thirteen. Following an eight week trial. He and his wife married together with their friend. Paul Mosel. Louis were found guilty of manslaughter. He was given a life sentence with a minimum term of fifteen years. Imprisonment psychologist, Glenn Wilson described Philpott as clinically a psychopath and exhibitionist with antisocial personality disorder. Vic, we've heard of someone's recommended this a long time ago, and I think that we said we were going to look it up and maybe we failed to do that. Quite possible. So you've got your pad their that down, fill pocketed them because I remember reading a little bit about it, and that isn't extraordinary case. So the next one is Leonard Thomas lake also known as Leonard hill and by variety of other aliases and he was an American serial killer during the mid nineteen eighties. He and accomplice Charles ING, raped, tortured, and murdered an estimated eleven to twenty five victims at a remote cabin in calaveras County, California in the Sierra Nevada foothills. One hundred fifty miles east of San Francisco after his arrest in nineteen eighty five on a legal weapons auto theft and fraud charges lake swallowed cyanide pills that he had sewn into his clothing and he died four days. Later. Human remains videotapes in journals, found at the cabin later confirmed ings involvement, and we're used to convict him on eleven counts of capital murder. Those are two very good cases and I know Philpott s- been recommended before, so we should definitely fit that in somewhere. Okay. Promise will look up some stuff. Lake. Thank you, Sheryl, and those are great suggestions. Okay. Then we have a comment from Jackie a on the Madeleine McCann disappearance. Okay. And I'm just gonna soon. Everyone knows about that because it's such a well known case, right? So Jackie says, I read something creepy. John Podesta and his creepy brother, both suspected child predators with ties to child trafficking. We're staying within a few blocks of the mccanns at the time Madeleine went missing and the sketch of the two men that were people have interest or whatever looks exactly like them, Google it. Okay. Well, all right. So Madeleine, McCann was the little girl disappeared in two thousand seven from resort in Portugal where she and her parents were staying. People have accused her parents right now in two thousand thirteen. So this is several years after Maddie's disappearance electronically generated sketches purportedly resembled John Podesta, and his brother, how pedestrians Clinton's chief of staff from nineteen ninety eight to two thousand one. So he's he's kind of a big shot and they were in the area. Well, so here's here's some things to consider. Okay. So the images that were generated where actually coming from sketches, one person, the produce different images of how it might look. But it was one person. So this of a person who may have been a witness to the crime, not a suspect. So the fact that I didn't certainly if you look at pedestrian his brother, they resemble the two pictures. Well, that sketchy, Nope, unintended. But the sketches came from just one dry Cher I got checking. So that's one thing. So pedestrian has not been charged or convicted of any child molestation. So why is he known as a pedophile is not so who saying he's a pedophile? Well, the suspicion is he does know Dennis Hastert who is a pedophile. Okay, I got it. And then despite trying to find evidence for him being in Portugal, there isn't any evidence to us actually there at the time Madeleine went missing. So it sounds more interesting. I think than it turned out or at least what I could uncover. So I don't think we mentioned that at all in our episode we did on it, did we? But I do remember some sketches with this was after the fact. Yeah, they had some sketches of person of interest as much better remembering these cases. I just finished one in its like, shh, Adami train. Okay. So that something to keep in mind. Exactly. I. I'm going to lift because I'm interested even though you already Google that could've. All right. Thanks Jacqui. So we have another case suggestion from Kate. Hi guys, great job. As always, I'd love to hear you doing episode Diane Schuler guess what could we're going to? Yes, that was recommended several times Dick's really into it. He's watched the documentary. He's looking up. Stuff is getting alcohol levels drugs in this is a big win for him. So we definitely are doing that too. We have schedule. Is it in December. I think it's early December that we have scheduled for. Okay. Yeah, I've been fascinated with it ever since watching the documentary. It's being of December. I'm really looking at for suggestions on what we should do for Christmas Christmas is on a Tuesday this year. So I thought I'd like to do something a little special. So if anyone has any good ideas on that, please call and leave us a voicemail, letting us know there. You are already mail, but we prefer a voicemail. We'll take whatever we'll take whatever. Okay, you get this win from Daniel this. All right. Daniel has a case suggestion. He says, I've never heard this case covered anywhere, and I wanted to see if you would cover it, Tabitha brewer, and Nick Travis where people I went to high school with it may senior year nineteen. Ninety eight, they disappeared. He was found dead, but she was never found Brandon. Howell was charged not convicted. The alleged killer has been mentioned in more recent news stories because he went on to be a lifelong criminal. So there's a lot of. Material here, please. Please cover this review a boulevard beer. Thank you. Thanks. Daniel. Daniel has given us boulevard beers. Half's I have a bunch of boulevard beers. So look more into it. Tell me about it and I'll make sure I review a boulevard beer. So Tabitha brewer in nNcholas. Travis were last seen outside their fathers residents in shawnee, Kansas on April twenty. Seventh nineteen ninety eight. Her purse was later found in a dumpster at fifty. Fifth and CEO boulevard in Kansas City, Missouri, Brandon Howell was charged with two counts of first degree murder stemming from the deaths of nNcholas Travis and Tabitha brewer. The couple were last seen with the suspect leading brewers home on April twenty. Seventh nineteen ninety eight travis's body was found in the backyard of a Kansas City, Missouri duplex and August. Twelfth of that year, the suspects and Travis had both worked there. Brewers body has never been found. Three witnesses told authorities that the suspect had confessed to killing the couple or had discussed a plan to kill them. The motive may have been a forty thousand dollar settlement that brewer had received after a car accident, although she was unable to access the money because it was in a trust fund. The suspect was found not guilty of two counts of first degree murder in the deaths of Nick Travis and Tabitha brewer in two thousand nine. So Howell spent time in prison for nineteen ninety nine home invasion. He was also charged with first degree murder in a triple homicide that occurred in two thousand fourteen and he was convicted of the murders and sentenced to death. So as Daniel Susie is kind of a career criminal, a violent of your mental yadda. So home invasion in nineteen ninety nine. This was like maybe a year or so after the disappearance of Tabitha brewer, nNcholas Travis because it took about ten years for that trial detail. Place. So the only good part about this. He's not free. No found guilty of three counts of first degree murder that it's fascinating. Well, Daniel, I know that dick loves the boulevard beer, so we probably will be covering this sometime in the future. Than likely will, and not just for the opportunity to review a boulevard beer. And I think the biggest thing is his guy who probably is guilty there killings who managed to get acquitted and then went on to kill three other people. I would imagine people who kill more than once probably don't get caught for all of them. Right. I mean, usually when they get a serial killer into prison, they're convicted for, I don't know how many, but it'll turn out like they're convicted for five or six murders, but the FBI will estimate that they've killed forty year. Something like that. That seems common just throwing the world about his. Sure. Thank you, Daniel and everyone else for your feedback. We do really appreciate it. I know that a lot of people put Hyman effort into coming up with these cases. So if it takes us a while to get them out, just remember that we do have them in mind absolute and we do appreciate them or or think it's really great that so maneuver listeners took the time to give us suggestions. I'm impressed by, I have to say they're so how are you feeling film? Pretty good. Good Herden slur too many words today now in the Foot's nut throbbing for fuels. Pretty good. So what. Whatever that non narcotic pain reliever is it worked pretty well? Yes. Well, I'm going to give the bartender a true crime for retail short because he's kept you in fresh ice all this time who has an I really, very solicitous of me. He know we do this true crime brewery in there so many awful people, but when I'm out and about in the world, most people are really super nice. We'll sure most people are good. I mean, sometimes I feel like I need to be reminded of that where you're get immersed in this stuff and you think, oh, I'm just reading about the dark side of everybody. So people are shit, but most of us aren't. No. Most of them are really nice. Okay, so thank you for the ice. The bureau is flowing in the foot is great. Okay, that's very good. Let's go. All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening and we will talk to you next time at the quiet, antiquated Sarah seat. A bye bye.

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