Audioburst Search

248: Diving Into Ruby Weekly with Peter Cooper


It. You're listening to ABC sewed two hundred forty eight young rows podcast. And on your host Martin, if you keep up with the newest in ruby on rails, news letter is today, I'm excited to chat with the Mandy Heim newsletter. Peter Peter has pointed experience in ruby, but in other developer communities, twelve such as Java scrip- pinko from across the pond, welcomes the show Peter going. It's wonderful to have you add love to kick off the show by asking you what your develop reward story is. Well, I say congratulations for taking the podcast. I think that's awesome. I'm I once before and he told a very similar story actually to Wong minutes how now, but it was many, many years ago. So things will have developed a little bit since then. So I pretty much been programming since I can remember. Rarely. That doesn't mean I'm an amazing program of any strips immagination definitely very average in that department, but I've been very long time and it was just kind of did as a kid I had a, my dad was really into the microcomputers of the IT's pretty much from the British perspective though. So we had Zik spectrums and we had BBC micro in these machines that weren't so very popular in the US. So. With planning those and. Latched onto that. And so what you could do with them and there was a whole, we know turn on and you see a prompt and it's you have to start typing and see what happens experience. Yeah. I know a lot of people, especially people of my age. I is not woods will have had that experience of a computer back then, and it's very formative. It's very different now too, you know, with my own kids, so seeing them on an ipad or whatever. You know, it's already got everything on that. YouTube and whatnot. It's not the same type of experience. So I start from that reading books and really just learning to program also helped me learn about so many other things you learn about mathematics, known about reading and different things. How sound waves were let you when you when you wanted to play Choon you know, you'd have to put in like four forty light hurts or whatever, and like, how do you know? That's I, for example, see you kind of learn all these cool things at the same time as you learning to program essentially. And that. That's kind of where I come from. So you know, of course, that wasn't for profit for work or anything like that. I was just a kid, but I kind of kept up a hobby. As a grew older. We go into PC's I picked up see, am I then kind of move to pass cow which is a little bit weird. But Toby Pascoe from Boland was very popular kind of environment develop on the mid nineties, especially if you were in volt would like the demo scene or cremant graphic related demos on that. CSI is. Yeah, I took SAS in high school and I look back on it with some fond memories, so I'm definitely following you. Absolutely. So yeah, it was. It was really kind of cool language to play in a specially because at the time it was one of the few language that made it really easy to write assembly language. We've in your new coats, you could write your Pasco code, then you could write your x eighty six stuff too. Do stuff like these in king and messing around with the graphics buffers and things like all these kind of cool tricks needs to do to have fast graphics on what by today's standards was prophetic hardware really. So again, you just for fun, anything profession or anything like that? It's funny actually, like it never crossed my mind to be a professional software developer tool, which is funny because my dad ended up doing that a little bit. He never took. A very long-term Jobe dabbled with it, and that's minus excess with it. But he was more into electronics and stuff like that. And so he kind of folks on that route, but. Yeah, I guess I didn't. I wasn't. It wasn't like today, like what you can see Silicon Valley in. I think maybe from the British perspective, it's a bit different because we didn't have anything really night that we had this kind of micro computer seen in the eighties, but. Kind of nineties. The tech scene wasn't really in the same thing as America we, I didn't see any people professional developers kind of have an idea of that world. So it never occurred to me. So my plan blessed come a lawyer. And I kind of went through saying, yes, I, you know, again, totally random, really, pretty much just because I was good at arguing with people that kind of people. Oh, you should. You should be a lawyer. You'd be goodness. In retrospect, I'm very glad I didn't become a lawyer because out about a very miserable life that sir. Yeah. So I kind of went through school and kind of went tool destructive of doing something in that that vein, this kind of coincided with the whole web thing taking often. 'cause I was dealing with that and building mode, websites and things people kind of took an interest and then I'll hang on. You could Bill websites for us and I moved down that track of building websites with people employed doing that type of thing. My first two, four time jobs were working on their web development and stuff like that. And I guess at that point it just kind of occurred to me. Oh, actually, you know, there's kind of a progression away that you can turn program into money. I know it sounds weird now that everyone's diving into this industry to make money with the Saupiquet on or not. But back then it wasn't very obvious to me. IT was a much bigger thing, especially in the UK at the time. You know, if you were gonna make the big money, you got to be kind of a, you know, a Microsoft, whatever. It's called, like verify professional type thing. And you know, be building massive systems and stuff like that, which wasn't. I've never been interested in ever and I'm still not interested in toll, but I really love programming. So I kind of the way for this process of building various websites and things. And I was very heavily into poem I did over eight years, and that's what led me to ruby. So I was going through slash dot one day in about two thousand four. And I saw thing about this whole ruby on rails. What's this sounds a bit of a novels at the fad, red Fru and kind of still the same thing hanging some cool ideas. In this idea, you can create an out really, really quickly with this thing, the people calling rails, and I took a look at it. I took a look at one of the screen costs, something that was one of the first things that grabbed my attention. And I think one of the things that the j. and some of the other people have done the screen costs of really got right. The people like me, at least tonight looking at videos, everyone does the people who do it's a way of bringing us into the fold. And so I watched that and I was like, yes, he's kinda cool Rubio pretty cool, but I've done poll for eight years. I've really hard to change languages. So let's see if I can rewrite. They impel for myself. I tried doing this absolute mess of it and kind of gave up very, very quickly and was like all like, I've got this project that someone wants me to build it. I think it was a photo gallery. And it was just a small job, not not big thing at all couple of thousand dollars that type of level of job. And that will people say this is like the next big thing like the Bill really quickly. Let's see what I can do. So there wasn't like there was anything like Michael hassles rotatory or anything like that other time is really just you go on and on. I'll say, channel JJ's hanging around and you know there's. You know, there's the Wikki actually a really big thing for ruby on rails at the time. It doesn't exist anymore, but it Wicky dot ruby on rails to all whatever. And people just go on pages about different things. And the documentation we have now is also a lot better, but at the time it was what we had. And so I worked through that and figure stuff out what screen caused a few times copied. Some of what he did. I'm not learning ruby. I'm just kind of unrising rails. I'm not even thinking about Rubio language. I'm just going to kind of do this of pigeons. Les Parrott faction couple it together. And we've in of the first twenty four hours of doing that. I had the app Bill that I needed. Did the photos knee uploading and this the even built my tagging library because there was no tagging libraries ruby at the time. So I built my own thing and it just words, I was like, wow, that was like these couple of thousand dollars just made. If I built that impel using the absolutely terrible things I was doing impelled at the time, it would have taken me a few weeks to doing it would have been actually masked to maintain so sold. That's that's literally how I got to ruby and I'm not gonna go too much into my story from there on just because he's about my origin story. But you know, kind of come just through a very Homebrew way. I guess I would put it and kind of stumbled into things like it's not been deliberate of not for I wanna be a professional developer. I just kind of had people in my life say, oh, hang on computer and computer, like just give it a go and do this thing for me. Okay. And I stumbled my way ruby and I've kind of stayed there ever since. That's amazing. I mean, I'm a huge fan of learning new necktie new technology is by putting skin in the game. So in your case you had jobs at your hired for you had a goal that you needed to reach. You know someone was waiting for that end result and that probably expedited how fast you learned the programming language. So that is amazing. Now, one thing that you mentioned to me is that you row. The ribian side blog for six years. Can you tell us more about that? I did. So another thing that kind of occurred to me very late in kind of high school is the I detail true responded to some homework I did. That was like a fake newspaper we have to produce. And while he's really good, let you seem to really have a good feel for light publishing and just kind of what entails like creek publication of some kind of soul. And it kind of a few dots kind of came together because I actually created the first school newspaper at my middle school. And it's just something always done, like always written stuff about what I was doing and I will like super diarrhea. But when the internet came along, I kind of kept his online diary. It was like an early blog before the word blog even existed. And I've kind of wish just into getting information like to sharing. I've gotten writing it down because I was just forget it disappears with me and it was just a habit I had. So. I did a little bit freelance writing, dabbled with people lying on you write a lot like you write this, that and the over and show. Let's give it a go. As is the case. Everything I do seems to be a stumble into it because people see me doing it as a hobby and do this for money. And I'm like, yeah, I like money. Let's do that. So I was used to this and I was used to blogging and just putting my folks out there. So I had a publishing company APR s lasted around and they couldn't touch me or one of their acquisition. It's his did, and he's like, oh, I've seen you'll blocking. And you've mentioned about the rebels at you've built in ruby and stuff. Like could you write a book about rails like an introductory book about rails? Because it seems to be taking off. And I said, I kind of go into Rubio's a language at that point. And I was like, well, actually, I feel more comfortable if I wrote a book about kind of learning ruby and kinda use this as an excuse to meet a learn ruby and kind of a book at the same time as I was learning the language, a common thing, we've offers the common theme with you. Nine that goal and stick to operation share the fact that like authors do that, like they like, oh, we, I can write a book about x and they're like, right, okay. Now how do I do x? Then? The I think a lot of conference speakers the same thing. Exactly. So, yeah, I mean, so I never knew this stuff I've heard from being in phase two other people now, but I kind of stumbled into as well. So I wrote this book beginning ruby Goh published two thousand seven. We've had free different editions and it's going really well. And so to promote that book, I was like, well, what do I know what works? Pro book produce a blog, and that's where the blow call ruby inside came from and. An interesting factoid about that blow. Here's the name. Ruby inside came from Jeffrey gross in Bach, who was a previous host of this very podcast. At least if I understand it correctly because I know this is going through slightly different ownership over the years, and I believe he ran the very, very first incarnation of it, and he was talking about. Intel inside which was a kind of his catchphrase the into had back in the ninety s. And it was some intelligence. I know you know, kind of Intel let your almost like Rabin side because they using ruby with an Intel at the time McCauley member. The story was after look it up, but e kind of count little quip about ruby inside. So I stole the name from him as easily. Yeah, cool. Go for it produce this blog. Just dig news every single week or even every day. I can't remember often post it quite often. About things that in the real world, the rails world, an upbeat win, and because it wasn't really many people doing that type of thing. Just really took off. You know, we grew over the course of six years to being over thirty thousand are assess subscribers through like Google reader and stuff, and that was a big deal and people sponsoring it was making a few thousand dollars in the end by just putting links to New Relic and stuff up in the Sibol banner ads and this that and the other. Just the typical wait, you run a blog essentially even now you do things like that. And it just worked. And that's the story of ruby inside is not actually that much kind of anything particularly interesting about it just kind of happened at just came together, fell into place. I find that so interesting though, because you know, we talked about your background and it doesn't sound like you have a formal background in marketing, but it seems like a common theme is that you're, you seem to be scrappy where you know you wanna publish his book. You wanna get into people's hands. You know what's the best way to get into people's minds. Like in this fairly, you know, fairly early with online advertising. You just really figured out how to get those organic searches so that you could really direct things towards that published book. So I just think that is really cool in it's giving you a new unique perspective within the developer community because I really feel that you've grown alongside that community. It's very cool. And so speaking of that unique physician that you have in the community, as you noted, you've been in it for quite some time, which is incredible really grateful that you continue. To stick with us. How have you seen the review community of all. Oh, wow. It's going through so many different kind of incarnations over the years. Hasn't it. I think. One thing I didn't agree with really early on the I've kind of begun to agree with was going who James Brit who I think he still does run a cycle ruby dash, Dr all along those lines. And he kind of maintain the ruby documents. And he was kind of very gung ho about the fact that there was no such thing as ruby community, like it's lots of different groups of people. It's lots of different communities and kind of wasn't really on board with initially. Now, kind of see is actually the case. You know, there's so many different communities out there. They've all evolved in very different ways. There are the people that are just stuck in toddy rails, and they just been rails rails like all the time and they, they kind of got involved ruby, but it's not been like ruby, not been very interesting to them outside of just building web apps. You know, they've not anything. We've TKO Bill anything shoes, Bill, anything that, like even with Sinatra necessarily not play these things, they are rails developers, but then there's. VO communities, like especially in Japan where they better even taught rails or even even familiar. We've rails really other than the name. They using it for building one of the things I heard this. There's a nuclear power station in. Somewhere in Japan that uses ruby and a t k powered kind of interface of some of its control systems and stuff is like the mind just boggles, but there were whole groups of people in developers oriented around that, and they meet up and they have meetings and a hell community that surround that. And they're not involved with us. And I think that have come to realize over the years and this is also now of the job community and not fooling jobs. But like that's another example where there's people that really, really heavily into type scripts and they don't interact with people in this early really heavily into like working with other things flow, something like that. We kind of got these very different silos of people that kind of occasionally connect, but they don't see themselves as being in the same space. This is very true of ruby as well. I was involved with a few different kind of small communities early on in the of rails era. One of them was called caboose, which I think one of the more interesting ones that was around at people in it like a Hoy would be good example. Awesome. Yeah, it Chris one straw in it day j.j use kind of dip in and out the Toby moons shopper fi- it's actually quite I wouldn't say depressing, but it's it's kind of weird looking back communities. Like I sit Amy actually a few weeks ago with two friends on Twitter. And I said, I think if you took the net worth of everyone that was in that channel, one oil see like we would be like miles below the mean average of network in that channel life. There are billionaires like that. We're in that channel and they built things. We've rails the of now gotten to that point. It absolutely amazing. So that was an example of the community. A lot of people that are listening wouldn't have been familiar with, but it was very much a community and people on each other and talk to each other and shared stuff and help build up some of what rails zoom about in that kind of very small space. So yeah, I guess just talking about community just doesn't resonate with me any more. It's really a lot of different groups of people and. I've been working on ruby weekly and stuff, but I wouldn't even us say like from doing that, I've realized that we different groups of people, and I kind of have to Cates to all of them some extent or another. I have people that say, oh, you to rail stuff in people that say, oh, we don't put enough real stuff in this so many different competing interests that I'm just trying to keep track of all the different communities. Robin saying there is I particular one because I just don't think there is. I completely agree. And so since you mentioned Riboud groupie weekly in benched at the top of the shard really liked to start digging into that. So how did ruby weekly start? And I'd love to hear the pitch. I describing to shut our listeners be interested in learning. All that is review weekly. The very basic pitch is you don't comb you go there. You put your Email address in you. Click subscribe, then you could ca- phone Email that you get because we have to double opt in and you get weekly Email that kind of has summaries and information about what's going on in ruby. Rails again, different communities essentially, and it just kind of a display on top of things. I wouldn't even say you have to read it every single wait. Just like when it comes in, if you're interested look at it and you'll see the such and such as being released all a security problem with some other thing, always this new library that does XYZ thing. It's really just that type of guide. Now, some people very happy using things like it for that all following certain prolific kind of ruby developers or wherever on Twitter and that's perfectly legitimate. What we do exactly the same thing. We use all of these different places sources as well as people submit stuff to us kind of personally. But what we do is we kind of boiled it down to what we think is important and write summaries about those things. That's the thing that you don't get on red often on Twitter and saw that we digest it in all hang on this kind of ties. This other thing that happened a few weeks ago, all practicing. We might even say something isn't quite the approachable still linked to say, over this opinion. But this other person's had these other opinion, and we're kind of tidy stories together. So we're trying to provide a little bit more curation on top of those fire hose of links that you can get from elsewhere until you know some extent of another, we succeed reasonably while at doing that. Some people like it. Some people don't, but we do. Doing quite well. I can't even remember how many subscribes we got now actually look this up. We got forty thousand subscribers, review, weekday. As of right now. Yes. So it's it's better than the block. Did an actually. You mentioned about the origin of this, like I didn't mention that the reason I did it was because I just was speaking to some people, and I was looking hacking news time back in about two thousand ten and seeing the Email was really taking off again as a way of communicating with people. Like there were things like groupon, for example. Yeah, that were you'd get these Daily Mail in your inbox. And that was actually kind of a novelty at the time, like even the amount of been around twenty thirty years, people always coined get deal Email every day. She's much cooler than going to website every day and looking up stuff like I emailed to me, and so I was kinda getting these vibes the, yeah, people are want wanna get the news over Email lot more in future and they were already plays in that space. Like, you know. You kind of groups like CNN and people like that had Email newsletters really dated, and they were kind of not very good, but he kind of said it's Rene San's beginning to build up. And if there's one thing that scares me into action, it's kinda thinking someone else is going to do what you're thinking of doing and kinda had this inkling is indication someone else's thinking about doing some of the things I was like, let's just do this little nemo news that about ruby Gordon the audience. Let's just go bam, and that we were promoted on the room inside blog got about two thousand subscribers over the course of the first week. So that was enough to think this is kind of interesting. I didn't have any idea about commercializing or anything like that. I was doing online trading at the time, so I push comes to shovel just keep promoting that in there somewhere Philip classes. Great, fantastic. And actually worked fine. Run it for a and it was all just working out. Well, I had people come woodwork saying, oh, we wanna pro Athens in there was light will account keep ROY Moore training courses time enough like time capacity to do it. Let's include some ads. You give me some money and we'll Romy at and that business. All these contacts. I feel up Osei like we now like this six of us doing this. Wow. Wow, you're sixteen now, it's funny. We were at ten at one point. We've kind of realized like where the efficiencies can occur like an we kind of scaled down, but we kind of become more efficient all of us. So there are six of full time, and then we have a few different external curator's that would and freelance basis. So yeah, I mean, you know, you really weekly and people listening probably hours well, but will have jobs weekly. We have a database weekly, we have a react news. What about the go prairie language about different, like Levin, twelve different ones. Now we've do some sort of in collaboration with other companies. So we did database one. We've acts space for year, and then we made it more generic and took over selves. We're doing mongo DB when we've Mogadishu right now. So we've kind of work on projects for people as well. But we kind of his whole family of newsletters essentially. And if you sign it to one of the new gradually learn about the others over time. We're not really big on cross promotion, but we do so mention them every now and then. Personal story of for review weekly. I used to be a boot camp instructor and was working on a issue with the VCR gem with a student. You know, we spent time on it. We got a solution really proud of it. So I encouraged her to blog about it. We, we hadn't found any documentation online in order to solve this issue. And so she sat down with her programming blog road out what happened, the solution and whatnot. And I reached out to you and I was like, hey, Peter, like I think this might be useful to other people and you are incredibly kind in your response back in you -cluded it in the newsletter the following week, and she had been getting five thousand views on that blog entry, which was incredibly cool for her because she was able to use that as a confidence booster as she was going out to apply for jobs, and it really validated that she was able to talk in these technical terms. And so I've really enjoyed the variety I get from ruby weekly. I feel that a lot of top news is on there, but also you'll often. Bring up projects that have already been in existence as almost like a reminder that they still exists. So I'd love to touch on what you decide is newsworthy, because as you mentioned, you do have people that send you requests and sounds like you're getting a lot of like a barrage of information from a lot of different sources. So I'm interested in how you choose the content for each week is funny because often complaint in two different directions at the same time, I complain just too much stuff to go through. Sometimes in times of complaining, it's just nothing out there and we really struggling to put together the issue for particular week. There really is a feast and famine kind of thing going on. Sometimes that's why you'll see things get resurfaced. Like, you know, see has been a release of something that's several years old even. But the family done a release now suppose rose, five point, two, whatever I think is actually note with because it's not hang on. This thing is old actually is alive still exists, which is kind of unusual. Relied found that a lot do quite quickly things we linked to, unfortunately. But yes, you know, sometimes we have famine weeks. You'll see things resurface just because without having to dig deep. Some weeks we come in the day with stuff, may have a major headlines. All this big releases occurred. This big drama things happen to whatever. Really, you know, I just look at it from a. Perspective is if I was reading the news from, I wanna know about and also just from a publisher perspective as well, which isn't always perspective, everyone kind of can empathize with because they don't think in a news e kind of way, but I have had exposure to that world of, I do tend to thinking of newsy way about things. While you know, we'll have a story is like an opium lead for the newsletter and then something else will come in and we're at a bump in that story down with bumping into next week we kinda, we do think about in actually quite a newsy way. It's not quite as blam as you know, dating with the latest like, you know, political dramas or whatever. But there is still that kind of element to it. Newsroom, e kind of fill. Sometimes when we debasing what goes in dozen. The end of the day, you know, I, I have people that help me with this, but the end of the she kind of try to be as responsible as possible for every single goes in. There are occasional Dodds of slip through, unfortunately, just because. Lastra's what happens. But broadly speaking, I looked at each thing and I think does this have any kind of relevance to like is a small. Our audience can be strongly interested in this everyone. Broiled gonna be interested in this kind of fits either of those things that it stands good chance of getting in. Whereas if something the is only kind of vaguely interesting to a very small group of people, then it's probably not gonna go in, like, you know if it's like some thing about checking identification numbers in Uruguay or something like it is is really kind of niche in very local. All right. We've got like two hundred subscribers in Uruguay like they really care about this, the rest of the four thousand dollars. So it's probably not gonna make it in unless it's an absolutely like dead week. So I kind of look at this not of popularity, but. I think one of the things got from living in the UK actually we have the BBC who a well known around the world for being kind of the. They don't like the state broadcaster of the UK, but they are in a similar kind of Raleigh. They're independent, but they try to cater for different types of people living the UK and length baby c, I have had this dairy mind of who these different communities are the ruby? Weld. And what do they care about? What does the Japanese person only working on gooey apps care about? What does the person in Silicon Valley who's only writing rails care about and then try and keep them in mind? So I if week is really strong rails news, I am thinking, oh, hang on, like everyone's into rails. Like what of the ruby people who care about ruby and they don't care about Ralph asshole. What would they wanna see an issue as well. So I'm trying to get his balance of the demographics. Correct. I gotta just mainly in diversity sense. Although we do that into account as well, but more in terms of like the topical kind of diversity and all we catering to different audiences essentially. I've had up kept in mind and the more talk about it with people and the more of tried to find external curates work with them. I've just found it's part of the secret sauce in the way that I work because I found a little bit hard to get people to understand how that works. They always think about just from their perspective. They don't always think about things from like a publishing perspective of defining audience and having personas and things of that kind of nature and catering to those and that something the I tend to do. So that's not very useful necessarily advice if anyone listening wants to get something into the news less night, they probably won't more concrete advice. All right. Something about x. y. z. but. I can't actually give you that advice. But all I could say is that there is a real lack of really good blog posts about anything nowadays and part of it because I think a lot of people stop logging to certain extent as Twitter and things. Yeah, it's a lot easier to overflow. Exactly. Yeah. You can for a halt Tyke on Twitter and say, oh yeah, this is a great library his the link like is easy to do that and say, all right, I would with this. I had this problem with. I fixed this bog. Here's a demo of something if Bill like, that doesn't happen a lot. So if you can write pretty reasonably harem, technically correct tutorials about things that maybe you've been learning and you write them up as you go along in this at this problem fixed it by doing this on that, then that actually stands reason he could chance of making in. And I think he's actually the thing that you were referring to stop someone in. I think you a teaching on. So of roads on that night journey. I can't remember the exact tall at school, but it was that kind of essence like I did this. I learned this and his how you can repeat this amazing thing for yourself. You know this? Yeah. This little of that an actually, you know if it's written very earnestly, very, you know, truthfully and you know, it's not completely technically inaccurate and payment of only stability about this skill. So I don't mind people who have like absolute beginners writing things. As long as I say somewhere in there like, look, I'm a beginner. I've just learned this and this is the thing that I've learned. That's fine. The thing that I think annoys both me and readers if this stuff gets out is when somebody just begun is all I've learned about. I don't know, Porsche, let's say rails, I'm gonna write in all school. It's cold, the absolute most amazing going to everything about ponchos. They've literally learned in like ten minutes ago. They've written a few code examples and then they. They've posted up on medium like that's not gonna go down very well because people hang on light. You just begun working with this. It's lacking. This is no DAT Phan. You've written it for the wrong version of rails. It's like a four 'isms. You not put route five stuff in you kind of problems. So I think if you're gonna write stuff, just don't pretend to be more qualified. The new armed people actually very happy with that. I'm. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. So if you want to really deep than you know if good technically that's what was the guaranteed inclusion. Like that's, I mean, it takes a lot more skill untalented to pull off that type of thing. But yeah, if you're willing to dig deep into something or even just tell the story of the bug that you ran into that some of the most interesting stories we've had where someone did something weird, we've rails on this broke, but why, and then they dug into it and followed era report. Explain what the problem was. Those are ready popular, but that said I saw him does want to. Deal with more surface level stuff. Someone who comes to mind actually the you might be familiar with some business is Julia Evans who you know she's a massive inspiration to so many people in our space at the moment. And I think about the comes from Ernest like she's very earnest about what she works, but she also admits where she's weak and where she strong. And so she'll, oh, I've just made this cartoon about learning about it might be wrong. It might be right, but he's kind of my idea when I'm going out into the world kind of see what you think about it, and I really love the approach to doing things. You know, she often does document as she learns and has very, very popular. I know some of them have come from that type of explosion. She's, oh, I've written this actually kind of helped me learn this thing, but and I think anyone is a beginner and ready wants to get a feel for how to write stuff. The is kind of Ernest and sounds genuine. You can come from that beginning mentality, even though she's extremely clever and extremely experience. But if you're moving into this new to you like new Toler and you come on utilit-, your new ruby jam, whatever. You can be very inspired by what she does because the way she approached it is just absolutely amazing from my point of view. Probably the best way just go to Twitter such pizza, see order studies to dot com slash PSE nowadays p. e. t. e. r. c. that pretty much the easiest way. Unless you wanna go to review weekly and subscribe to that. You know if there's anything interesting ruby related, it will go into that. But yeah, if you want my more general fought on the world which you probably don't, but so you can find those onto. It's the best place to go.

Coming up next