743: The value of hope even when death is certain, with Dr Lee Warren
Hello everyone I'm Kevin Miller and this is the ziglar show where our goal is to inspire your true performance in this episode. What is the value of hope? Even when death is certain. So what do you have hope in real ho based on actual expectations. Do you have hope that drives you to you. Get out of bed. Make progress toward your desires. And we'll stay in the hardships of life. We in this show I bring you a guest to is a neurosurgeon. Yes a brain. Gene surgeon the top guns amongst medical doctors. Dr Lee Warren. He brings us stories of Terminal Patients and brain tumors merge with one hundred percent fatality rate Eddie sites from his daily experiences walking through the TRAUMAS and tragedies of humanity that hopelessness is even far more deadly which sounds preposterous. How can one even have hope amongst certain death win the show you will hear how and why hope is so so vital necessary and possible for all of us no matter our circumstances but let me forewarn you this is not remotely some formulaic show on? Hope it's a deep invulnerable invulnerable dive filled with as much recognition of mystery. heartbreak is it is hope and help Dr Warren. He's an Iraq war veteran who perform for more than two hundred surgeries in a tent hospital. From then until this day he performed surgeries on everything from tumors to headwinds he's daily amongst thanks despair and death and hope and healing at family tragedies and triumphs and amongst it all he's also lost his nineteen year old son and had to deal with his own grief and faith. His new book is called. I've seen the end of you and it chronicles the stories of some of the patients who just really rocked his faith. And and let me say this. I studied the books of every guest. I have on the show of course but I don't always read them word for word from front cover to the end this one. It was like a novel that I kept wondering what's going to happen next and I read it cover to cover. I've shared it with my friends and family and my family keeps passing it around. And everybody's he's going through the book just rabidly. It's just incredible now. I'M GONNA share it with you. If you have ever ever pondered your faith. Please listen to this show and if you want a book that will keep you enthralled and quite possibly give you a new perspective on your personal faith go check out. I've seen the end of you. Wherever you get books you can pre-order now as actually actually comes out January seventh two thousand nineteen? You can also connect with Dr Warren W Lee L E WARREN MD DOT COM and. Make sure you check out the doctor. Leigh Warren podcast. So I'm going to bring you Dr Orrin right after I share some great products and services with you if your team uses public public Wifi for Work Your Business is vulnerable to data theft. That's why you need tunnel bear for teams. It's an easy to use WIFI. Security at built specifically specifically four teams that are regularly on the go and unlike other. VPN's expensive is easy. There are no licenses to juggle or one off invoices to manage. Try Try tunnel. Bear for teams free for seven days by signing up at tunnel bear dot com slash. Ziglar what do you think of when I say fasting. What do you think a sad little holy men sitting cross legged on pillows will there are other important ways? The fast like fasten from your work your roles even your relationships ups. I just did a fast from being husband daddy and it was wonderful. Which is why episode? Fifteen minute podcast. True Life Show is titled Feasting on fasting fasting. You'll hear some types of fast you will want to feast on and it's vital for our overall health and wellness so find the true life show wherever you get your podcast checkout episode fifteen or let's see I actually asked my my my doctor partner here how to pronounce this blast Oma multiform. They get it right yeah. Our people say multiform multi-form. Okay all right. Well I was trying to be politically correct correct on that one or at least verbally correct jeep. Gbm knows what you refer to it. So brain tumor that of course as you lead off in the book. It's almost one hundred percent that fatal. But how many of those surgeries do you think you've done alley. Oh I don't know three four hundred seven hundred goodness okay and you. You know in removing this tumor you give of course as I read in the book you get the patient. More time. Time to let them and their family come to grips with with this pending death generally to put their affairs in order and of course in the book you share the emotional aspect of faith struggle legal and knowing that they're likely going to die and as you showcase. It's I don't know if you give it a stab at it. Seems like it's about ninety nine point nine percent of the time and we're going to get into that more but from a job aspect I was. I was interested that every time you perform this surgery and this is your your job. You do your job and you do a good job yet. Realizing it's not gonNA be success. If if you were a mechanic that'd be really bad. It's fixing the car in realize that outside of the emotional the faith issue that talk about even that. If you've found that I mean is that have you you come to grips with that sometimes demoralizing to know that this effort this expense is generally not going to. It's going to give him time again. which is maybe? That's the biggest. Maybe that's the biggest value but still daunting it. Is You know the thing is we. We talk a lot about what was the goalpost that you're shooting at. So you know the target and the Glass Doma and diseases that are known to be generally fatal. The the target is not a cure target is cannot establish the diagnosis and I- preserve quality of life. NEUROLOGIC function It patients ability to communicate and live their life with their family for as long as they possibly we can and so we know that without the surgery they have a lot shorter lifespan. And let's higher complication rate. So we find ways to sort of adjust our own expectations and help our patients understand. What they're you know what the plan is? And what the purpose of the procedure is and what is is the general time line that they get from you perform the surgery. What is the average length of their lifespan? At that point so statistically speaking in this is is held up for about the last forty years of this disease People that have Glo Bus Doma. That can't be mostly removed If you can really just only by opposite and treated with radiation and chemotherapy they tend to have about twelve months People that you can the tumors and a safer location and we can get most of it out with surgery and then they go wanted to have radiation chemo. They have fifteen eighteen months. Median survival kindness. When was the last one that you did? How long ago last week last week and How again same same thing do you feel as normal you see the end of them whereas what would you say their status right now mostly That patients doing well clinically Well I'm sure you're affected of course by every patient you deal with But your book highlights. I mean as you as you're going about and doing whether it's Gbm or otherwise the surgeries are doing the pupil. You're in contact with but in the book your highlighting these Gosh. I don't know if these highlight stories in a sense of the people who resonated with your heart and in that where are are there some. Yeah compliant here but are there some recently with an anonymous name that you could say. Oh my gosh. They left a footprint on you if they had happened prior. Did you write in the book. They probably would have made it in a book made it into the made it into the boat. Yeah every every patient story is unique and different and the ones that move made the most Are The people who they encountered this really hard thing. That a lot of cases with create helplessness and despair despair but they encounter it in a way that makes me question myself and say why would I have held up as well as they did. Hard thing or the people whose family's seemed to rally around them and they seem to get stronger while they're getting sicker And so I've had several those recently. That were just really inspiring people who seem to they beat the odds of survival but they beat the odds of overcoming hopelessness. Yeah and hopelessness. I think it'd be the thread of this but you no in reading the book and as I told you I have a son who had I guess three brain surgeries and so it was just incredible. And he's reading the book rabidly sadly right now just really means a lot to him and it just gave me some of these tangible questions about what you do and I have a friend and that works at Stanford out in California is a clinical social worker. IDA's family guidance in Bereavement. He's been doing it for a long long time and So much trauma and on one hand. It's made him who he is today. He's incredible guy of faith and an insight and compassion probably compassion despite the top of the list. But then he's also talked about and I thought about this in regards to you. How much of a toll it has taken on him emotionally and even even even physically and I wondered with that as much as of course this has bolstered your your faith that we're gonNA talk about here? How has that ATP laid out with you? Just look at the toll that it's taken on you to see so much of this in-depth trauma and grief. I think that the greatest advantage I had over the bulk of my career is that Milwaukee Lisa and I worked together in our practice together in so you know a lot of my colleagues. They don't take their work home. Because it's something that you can't really explain to somebody else what you're feeling right. But at least our living those patient experiences together and so Had An ally in the fight who understood it in who was also going through it so I think for me I I never. I never got to that place where I felt like I was things were futile or are that I wasn't making a difference because I always had her perspective there to help me see that we were helping these folks and and you know oh by the way so and so dropped by the office today and they. They're doing great and they said that. Thank you and you know so. We had this this thing in home. That helped us deal with what we were handling only at work. And that really has helped me tremendously. And that stood out in the book to me because We hear so often the people in the workplace especially specially those dealing with I had somebody recently talked about on the show about just Complexities and the gravity of their work. That was so iheart translate at home. They felt like it literally disconnected and they didn't know other. They've talked about this. The struggle that they had to this day in being able to take that that had off for one and then feeling like it's just there's so much there's no way I can come in and related and so they just felt that void so for you not to have that yeah. What are unbelievably unique place? That puts you in right. It's been a great blessing. Hope talking about you talked about hopelessness CLA system. End of Y'all I mean hope and faith to some degree we can use those interchangeably. But you're seeing it again back to the trauma you're seeing net where the rubber hits the road life and death situations which few of us ever see t- to any great degree. Everyone is going about their lives. Just like the folks listening to this show right now. People are tens of thousands. It'll be listening to go into work. Run on a treadmill cooking in the kitchen. Whatever just like me? I'm doing here doing my job. And maybe their faith is tangible something they devoutly pursue. Maybe it's on the fringes but now again you're in your practice and and just like somebody that you you did the Gbi em surgery for an recently they now have this critical diagnosis. And how do you see people's faith play out in regards almost timeline wise. Is it something where right. Then the rubber hits the road the crap hits the fan. Whatever and their faith is gonNA come to fruition right then and there and help or hurt them or is generally a process that now they're going to dive into the depths of where their faith really resides right? You know it's interesting. You ask that I as a scientist right. As a is a person who kind of grew up in the science world and also as a person of faith a studying these people sort of scientifically as I encountered him in my career here with his as I tell the story in the book my my heart had this problem of saying you're looking at a scam before ever met the patient and saying boy that's GonNa be Globalist Obama and I've seen the end of you know what's going to happen to you right so in my mind. I would project out this path that the patient was going to take in their physical fight. What I didn't understand and as I as I thought I knew a lot about this disease was that there are multiple ways really that people encounter in grapple with hard things that they face and sort of sort of filtered them out into four groups that are seen over time in the first one is is what you might call a crasher there? They go along their last been pretty good. They haven't really. I've had a lot of trouble. And they hear me say you have brain cancer. And they were like that stuff doesn't happen to me that that those things don't occur in my life but you know and then boom there in the pit of despair right there at the at the bottom and then there's another group that might call climbers that they're sort of her. You're in the book. A guy like Joey that told the story of they'd never had any relationship with God. Never had good things happen in their life. His story was terrible. He and his dad left him his mom and died. He was drugs and alcohol all kinds of problems throughout his life and he almost expected me to say he had cancer. Those people wife has been one stream of trouble for them so they almost expect it to be bad and when it is bad it doesn't surprise them so they're they're faith is in the dumps in it stays in the dumps and there's there's another group that they understand they have perspective. Maybe they've been through something hard before. Maybe they've got a good faith but something hard happens in it and it knocks down for a little little bit. And then somehow they're able to rally in in re reconnect with their faith or their family and come back and there's the other group that seems to be unaffected indefatigably Kabui nothing. Nothing that happened to them shakes them at all and I started wondering what separates all those people right so if the first event is your diagnosis news in that changes the arc of your of your hope if you will or your faith. What's the second event and in the second event is something that creates hope or something that shows them light again and so for For a guy like Joey you know. He's he's dying is losing. The fight was his disease. He's never ever had any kind of hope in his life and all of a sudden his grandmother in pastor can rally around him and they keep telling him that they love him no matter what he's never. I heard that before right. He's never felt that before. And so all of a sudden he's got this idea that he's lovable and that even if he doesn't survive his life could mean something even though now the end of it is a lot closer than it used to be in his mind and this is the thing that turned him around. Was this notion that the other things to hope for other than length of live right so I've seen that in in people and and it seems like that second event if it doesn't happen that thing that opens the door to believe that lights lights out there even if you can't see it yet that's the thing that separates people who survive emotionally and people who don't really been stunned to learn over these years. There are people whose lives get better even if they die and people whose lives get worse even if they survive so there's this group of people who thinks crash for them and even if they recover from their disease they become bitter in their angry. That happened to them or brook up their manager. They might survive the tumor but they don't survive five the hopelessness right. Where would you put yourself? You just said the four people. Where would you put yourself because I know you question that in the book wondering how would you deal with it? If you got the diagnosis. But then you did have your tragedy with your son Mitch. Rich Dine at one thousand nine years old. How long has that been now? Six years he died in two thousand thirteen thousand thirteen at that point. Where would you put yourself there? And the soap before that happened I thought I was. I was raised in the church and had a faith and todd our kids to believe in God and and I was I was having questions as saw people encounter all these hard things L. is grappling with some of those things but I thought I would handle it. Well if something did happen happened to me a wondered but figured I would be okay and then when something bad did happen when our son died To be honest with you for a little while L. I felt either. That guide wasn't real or that he was really a jerk. I mean I I The ironic thing about it was. We'd had kind of a the difficult relationship with Mitch for a while as many parents do with their adolescent kids struggling with some things but but things that seem to turn around and even the day before he died he called me and said dad coming home. I'm ready to go to school. I'm sorry for the way things have been a love you and and and just that morning we've been in the morning that he died the next day We've been in twenty one days of prayer event with our Church and the youth pastor lead that service on Tuesday morning that August and prayed for the kids and we were you know. Listen I both on our knees at praying for all five of our kids and and really had this great sense of hope. I hope that that things were turning around with mentioned that very evening when he died and so for me it was like God. What was all that about like what? Why did it happen? The day. The Youth Pastor Astros praying for the kids and the day after he called after. Almost you know several months of not talking to us like why did you let us have that little bit of what felt like reprieve. We've heard that it was all going to be okay and then it seemed even more unsurvivable at that point show it took us a while to To sort earth decide if we were going to believe or not and then what what came down for me was the alternative of there not being a good God out there was worse than just not turning out to be what I thought he had been in as it turned out he was more than I thought he had been because he actually proved himself true to all the promises like like God is close to the broken heart. That turned out to be true for us. We just had this be still enough to listen and feel it and so for me I I thought I would be the guy that stayed strong and it turned out to be the the dipper the guy that went down pretty low and then found hope again came back. Yeah you you are listening to the ziglar show next. I asked Dr Warn about the question. We've all asked or heard how can a good God let tragedy happen and how his own answer has changed since dealing with the tragic death of his son. So we'll be right back to that after. I share some great products and services with you one of the ways that hackers steal sensitive business that it is through public Wifi the infamous dark hotel attacks that targeted executives in hotels all over the world. In fact fact two thousand eighteen study by past mobile security reported. The eighty-one percent of organizations have seen Wi fi related security issues in the last twelve months. If your team travels often works remotely or has a bring your own device to work policy. It's almost impossible for them to avoid using public Wifi for work work. That's why you need tunnel. Bear for teams and easy to use WI FI security at built specifically for teams that are regularly on the go with one tap. 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You must get that question fairly frequently and doing what you do. And how is your answer. Change changed from before Mitch Today after you going through that same thing obviously that gives you more. That sounds bad. But gives you more credibility that you've done donahue experience that now you can relate to that but how's the answer changed. Well you know I used to say well. It's all about perspective. You know we have to have this attornal perspective perspective all the Christian platitudes that we say if we really believed that life is short at attorneys forever. And God's got a plan and all the things than than we have to just be able to understand that that life life is hard and we can't always know everything and that's how it sort of frame it before but a- As we were walking through it I came to the place where I had to understand that we we were never promised a life without trouble in fact we were promised the opposite. Jesus said it himself in this world you will have trouble but take heart. I have overcome the world right and the same. Jesus that sent. I've come. The thief comes to steal and kill and destroy your life. I'm here the might have life and have it abundantly and so the same. Jesus that said those two things also says that there will be a resurrection and that someday will get to be united with their loved ones in him again again so for us it came to if if any one of those promises isn't true then we are utterly helpless and so if one of them is true though because because God says that all scripture is true and that all it's impossible for him to tell y than all those promises do have to be true and so they're if they they are all true in the ones that seem hard on the surface like in this world you're going to have trouble are balanced exceeded by the ones that same comforting. God is close to the broken brokenhearted. I'll think somehow worked together for good for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose in and if there's no resurrection than we're above all men to be pitied right because there is a resurrection and so for me. It came down to saying it is utterly hopeless. If there's not a god who's going to redeem aim this somehow and you don't choose what you believe because it sounds better you choose it because you really believe that but for me it came down to. I believe that I'm going to to see my son again. And as my friend Gordon Livingston said in He. He lost two sons in thirteen months. So he's got even if my credibility is something his has to be exponentially more because he got to the place where he could say that what passed for hope for him. Was this belief that he would get to see his sons again. Someday and so for me. It was that passed for hope in a time. When I didn't feel hope had to believe that someday I would again be able to feel how we're not didn't feel faith? I knew that if I kept reading and studying and praying and crying out to God that he was GonNa let me feel some faith again someday and he. Did you just mentioned mentioned the scripture that we often hear often. Aaron Lee in the shortened version guide can go to work all things to dot dot dot so. I pulled that out of the book. You had the chaplain that you cite in the in the book who said the purpose told you in a hard time. The purpose purpose of prairie isn't the Ben God's will to ours the purpose of prayers to bend us to God's will and as you relate this in the book that didn't sit well with you when he said that right and that brought you guys right into talking about you mentioned that scripture gotTa Work and he got pretty stern there give us a snapshot of. That's that message in the book. Well everybody has everybody who knows what Romans eight twenty says. Everybody tends to take that and apply it to the to the idea that God will turn everything into something. Good view love him. So you lose your job. God's GonNa make something to get out of it. It'll be okay. We plotted to bring these platitudes and pat each other on the back with those ideas and so I sort of jumped on pastor John and said No. Now you're going to tell tell me that everything's GonNa be okay right. Everything's GonNa work together for good. You'RE GONNA pull that out on me and he said that's what it says no doesn't say that God will make everything good. It says it will work everything together for the good of those who love him enter called according to his purpose in the next. I basically says to make you more like Jesus and so if you look at Jesus Jesus Guy who lived a perfect life and then got nailed to a tree to be thanked for basically got killed killed for being a perfect person right and that wasn't good for him when he died they went through all that pain but it was worked for. We're good for everybody. Who loves him right? Because it it gives us a chance to be redeemed and so in your life. The way the way I came to understand it is is that if if the hard circumstances of your life can point you towards being more like somebody who was able to navigate this live in a way that it got him through it in really perfect way than if those hard things can be redeemed to make me more like him than I'll be able to be more effective in my ministry in my work. I'll be able to be more compassionate towards but other people in my family and other people around me when they're struggling and I'll be able to be more faithful when countering hard things the next time they come around. Because I'll say you know what in with the time and and light in perspective on this I can look back now and I can say today. I am a better father than I was six years ago. A better husband. I'm a better doctor. I've affected lives that I wouldn't have affected affected in the same way if I didn't understand other people's grief because of understanding mine so those are good things that came out of something that is not good so it's not true to say that Romans eight twenty eight said if your son Dies guy can make that good. That's not what it says. It says the God can redeem met in a way that it allows some good to come through it and and that really means a lot to me it has to because if there's no no redeeming it then there's no way to understand. There's no way to say that his life had any value. If it's just about a bad thing happening but his life had value and continues to help serve other people because we've learned how to use it and make good things come of it well in. This is a question that I our perspective. I guess that not even sure how to ask. I mean doing what you do you. I can't fathom without the faith that you have. It would seem so especially in these cases of GM where you know that there's the greatest chance that they are not going to make it. It would seem so futile. I mean do you look at that. You look at other your peers other. Docs doing that. Who Do not have a faith in wonder wonder how are they able to how are they able to withstand it or do you feel like they just have to read harden themselves against it? I do I've been blessed to work around a number of people who don't believe and I say blessed because I think it gives me some perspective to understand we're not the only ones that have the ability to have equality life and and to enjoy our work and find meaning and purpose in life that I believe you can feel those things even if you don't they have a faith but what I I think the differences to me when life is over when my physical life is over my real purpose begins then right. I believe I believe that. This is an eternal thing that has meaning and value beyond the days that I'm drawing breath and I've never been able to wrap my mind around the idea that just living this life well is enough okay. I feel avoid when I think that way so I've seen a lot of physicians who don't have faith and don't have a belief leafs are more prone to burn out and more prone to Surrogates for hopelessness like drinking too much or having having other things that they we used to pacify they're They're wondering what is all about because it ends at a certain point for them right. It's cold it's cold ending thing and so I I'm not GonNa say that all of them feel that way because I have some friends who radius that really seemed to have a very solid emotional live live and they seem to be Full of joy in that. They don't have any trouble with the idea that it's all over when it's over but I've seen the flip side of that too and and I I think if you have a real faith then your life is is you life on this earth is part of your story but it's not the whole story you know i. I want to ask about faith and you said you. You categorize people into four areas and the number one was the crash or people who hadn't had trouble. So here's my testimony. One of mine to you is this past Sunday and this morning because obviously the books on my mind having read it now my again my son's reading it in my devotions with my kids Sunday it was with my three oldest boys and this morning it was with them. I'm and then Three of my other kids younger kids and this came up in relation to scripture. We were we were reading and then a topic we were talking talking about. The aspect used the word gravity that they have lived a privileged life. And I don't say that in a negative way towards them I mean I'm not gonna go make things hard on them for heart's sake but they have lived a privileged life. They have not had this well except for my oldest who's gone through his his surgeries. He's had he has had a road but the rest of them have and it's I don't know it would be. It's an interesting question when you look at that. If if something in happens if the trauma happens and it is going to I am nine kids and now grandkids and at some point the odds are. Something's going to happen. How am I going to prepare for that because I have not dealt with a lot of trauma? I'm not one of these people who's been through the fire in that sense so how am am I gonNa do that and as I look at my kids go. How are they going to do that? We talked real blatantly. So you guys you could. You could lose me today or mommy today or both of us are and things would drastically exchanged. This is why you are pursuing your faith now and they get it intellectually. I feel really inadequate to bring it much further than that And I don't know that's I it's big thing to throw at you but you know looking at you how. How would you look at that? And how massive. It is in regards to how people respond. And how resilient they are. That's a big buzzword these days resilience right how would you you speak to us those of us who maybe have not in talking not only for us but for our kids. How do you raise up that gravity? How do you make the faith real enough to where when it does happen when it hasn't before day can ride it out? Well right I think the first thing his and I write about this a lot in my in my newsletter in my mushroom of aim with the things I write about what I'm not reading books is this thing. I kind of jokingly call self brain surgery hurt this this notion that you have to change your mind about things before you can really change your life in in the one mindset mindset shift I think is the most helpful is to just be aware and be thoughtful of the fact that your life has a time stamp on it right and must've must've SORTA project that out so far especially when we're young it becomes almost infinite like I'm GonNa live forever right but but if you start with yourself and you say how many two hundred year old people have you ever met zero one hundred fifty year old. How many hundred zero people maybe a couple? How many ninety year old people ten or twelve and you keep backing that up you start to realize none of those people that didn't make it to eighty thought they weren't gonNa make it eighty right so every every live atop stamp on it and so the first thing is you recognize? I don't get to pick the number of my days inserted therefore I better pick the quality of my days. I I so if I'm going to say I'M GONNA change my mind about one thing that will make a difference in my quality of life no matter what circumstances come along then. It's going to be that I'm GonNa make take this day the best. I can make it even if I find out today that my son died or even if I find out today that I've got brain cancer or even if I find out today that the bank account's awesome fear or whatever so so the first thing is tell your kids till your family to just start being aware that hard things happen in life even if they've never happened to you or your family they do happen and they happen to good people and they happen to normal people and to your next door neighbor and just be aware that that's a reality because one of the things that I think hits people. The hardest is when something happens to them and they've never in there just blows their mind that this could happen to them right so I think that's the first thing second thing is anytime you're gonNa go through something in your life anytime you're gonNa go through life but if you're going to go Latin. Change the tire on your car. There's a set of tools that you need to do that thing with a right. You need a Jack in Lug nut wrench and all that stuff. There's tools is that you need and so I talked to my people in my family about. There's there's brain surgery tools that you need to and the biggest one is something. I call thought biopsy this idea that every pops into your head isn't true right we get all these little thoughts in our head and some of them are negative and we especially are prone to them. When something bad happens when when your wife leaves you or you get fired from your job you start hearing all these thoughts? I'm unlovable. I'm unharmful out. This'll never be okay again. I can't bounce back from this and and so if you go into life aware that these hard things can happen and that when they do your brain chemistry chemistry is going to make it as negative as it can be is going to make it as hopeless as it can be that you have some ability to fix that. Do Surgery on your brain changing how you think about it. I think Zig Ziglar would have something to say how I love the thought biopsy statement. Yeah how you think changes how you live right. It changes you just how you interact with other people changes the steps that you take. It changes your brain chemistry positive and negative ways. That's why Paul who wasn't a neuroscientist. As far as I know. Also Paul said whatever's lovely pure noble. And good think about that stuff right so when your son Dies you you start saying I must have been terrible dad. I did all these things wrong. Can I have done differently. How can we fix that? What what will happen now? Our kids endanger now. Now all of a sudden it's possible for one of your kids to die so you start not letting your high school kid go out. 'cause you don't WanNA protect her right. You don't want her to go off off to college. You want her to stay close all of a sudden it's like you're endanger mode and you have to step back and say wait a second time out the thoughts on thinking gain. They're all negative and they're not all true so my daughter still needs to have a life and I still have all these other amazing kids got a grandchild. And I've got a life that does have value and you know what my son did have a good life and he did love me and he knew I loved him and you start rebuilding those thought processes assesses and then before you know it you start taking steps back into your life again right so changing. How you think is the first step to changing how you live so the change your brain change your life? Danielson says my mile friends psychiatrists essay. You can't change your life until you change your mind you you got to change your thought process and the first thing thing is understanding that the thoughts you're thinking always true. I is this just one of those tools and I'm talking about so the idea is if you're if you're saying how do you handle preparing airing yourself for the hard things that happen in life. The first one is being aware that they will come. There's no matter what you can't put yourself in a big enough bubble to keep your shelf from having some trouble because even even if you're in a perfect bubble you still have a body that's GonNa wear die someday right now and it's hard to. It's hard to say that stuff without sounding like you're being fatalistic or negative tyranny of those things but because especially Christians in some of us there from certain traditions. Have this idea that if you have enough faith you know nothing bad it can happen to your demand that God gives you certain things or you name it and claim it or you know all those kinds of things and I'm just going to say I think that's a heresy at I think it's it's it's incorrect theology because Jesus himself said you're GonNa have hard times in your life now. Paul had a thorn in the flesh. Couldn't pray away and God said my grace's sufficient for you right and as far as I know at least eleven of the twelve apostles were martyred for their faith but they had a whole lot of faith right so the Bible. I don't think tells us that we're going to have a pain free life. If we just have faith and I think that presupposes uh is to have a lot of trouble if we think that it does say that there's one of the hardest things for me. Hey as a dad who believes that everything was always going to be okay. When my son wasn't okay was for me to say this is a dirty trick? None of the stuff. I thought thought was real as real none. None of the things I thought about Gaba really true. And that's a negative thought. That is a lie from the double. Who wants you to feel despair and hopelessness because when you are in despair and hopelessness? You can't help anybody else. This is so just recently And folks listen and show shows seven thirty five. I interviewed. Mark Patterson well known pastor. He has a new book called double blessings and in that he even talked worked. So we're talking talking about the bad things that are going to happen at some point that he even talked about on the blessings that with God's blessings come complications and I really appreciated that and to what you're talking about the thing that I keep I continue to come back to and talking with my kids and talking with my peers ears and in thinking for myself so arrogant to expect that the bad things will not happen and so this topic is so so. That's why it's so cute to me. That's one of the reasons we're here doing. This is because I know it is going to happen. And it's so it's almost mind-blowing to me how you deal with this daily in people's lives I would a special person it takes. I'm grateful for God's anointing on on you. I really like your line. You can't pick the number of days you can pick the quality kind of goes to that live every day like it's your last day which is impossible statement to walk out but that puts a tangible viable aspect on it of again back to that word of the gravity. You mentioned this. I don't know if I would ask that. Otherwise but some of the. You didn't use the word regret but some of the questions that people do. In retrospect and you talked about your son you know with Mitch if I can ask you look back. Even in your own peace and reconciling that and look back and go there are some the things I wish I would have done. What would you take? I mean. That's the consummate question you'd ask somebody who's gone through something like that okay. I've got kids. What is that thing thing or two things or even if this is a specific thing towards Mitch you go man? I I do wish I would have been able to do or been able to impart X.. Or whatever it maybe well I think the biggest thing for me is if I'm confessing. Monsoons is a lack of balance in my work. Personal live in those years when my kids were growing up in Lisa and I ran our own practice and it was a solo practice. meaning that I was. That's the only neurosurgeon in the practice. But also in the town so in Alabama where we lived. There wasn't another neurosurgeon in about fifty or sixty fifty mile circle and so there is a limitless amount of work to be done the people who are hurting and people who are sick and people who were in pain and and in my quest to build a good life for my family I never said no to anybody in work too much in so although you can't things can be simultaneously true but not causative of one another you can can be true that you had bad balance and it can be true. That one of your kids had some trouble. But that doesn't necessarily mean the one thing caused the other thing But I know that I I. I wish I had spent more time. I'm not working. And so if if that's a real answered your question absolutely I have never. I've been at the deathbed of a lot of people every week week. Did it again yesterday. where people are like literally taking their last breaths and I've heard them say in all kinds of things but I've never heard anybody say they wished they'd spent one more day at work or they wished they'd done one more surgery or they wish they had made one more dollar. Never heard anybody say anything like that. It's always I wish I'd spent more time with my wife. Had Another Day with my daughter I wish it was. It's all about people in time and things that they're missing. Yeah at the end of life. It's never about stuff. They wish they had done. More of May materially well and to balance that out that as much as yeah. I don't I can't imagine somebody being on the death bed saying I wish I had worked more. been away from my family more but for those who hear that and struggle viably with they may be at a place of survival mode financially. Whatever where you're at I literally lived out the other side of that in my early entrepreneurial early years of Saint? I've got little kids and you know what I need to go. Spend some time with them. God will take care of the mortgage and I did that long enough to where there came a time when my wife said honey I love you but I am. I can't handle this. The best thing you can do for our family right now is go. Make a buck. You need to go to work. Do you go to work so I literally live that it was a big valley in my marriage and it was gosh it was two thousand and two and it's a big part of our own story where I went too far that way As well so back to your statement of a balance in the work in the personal life that I've lived it out on the other side as well You you know Lee on this. I'm still somewhat enamored by you. Given the four categories of people who went tragedy hits and how how they react and you also talk you have a story in there that just hit me somewhat of I talked to my kids I think again. I think it was this morning morning. And where you find yourself most people they come to you and they've got a tumor. They've got a head injury injury. They've got something that happened to them. And then you talked about the One lady in the book who tried to kill herself and shot yourself in the head so here you are where somebody obviously their life. Living their life was such a hardship. They decided to end it. Now you're you're trying to put them back together and if you do that successfully and they come out the other side with fair functionality they now have a new set of problems to deal with. So I'm really curious because I I looked this up and you know. CNN reports a suicide rate United States continues to climb with the rate in two two thousand seventeen. That's thirty three percent higher than in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine so I assume you're cases continued to increase and in that arena so with them. Where do they generally fall in? That is that. Is that what you see. Play out that now. They tried to like now. It's just worse or is there. Are there some of them where it helped turn them around. Yeah humane to some of the people that survived. Yeah I've seen that a lot. Actually where because one of the things about Mild Pastor actually. Cato used to say that you know the Christians used to say if you commit suicide you are destined for Hell right accent. He didn't believe that anybody could try to commit suicide in their right state of mind in what I've seen is that so often there's something else involved. There's there's alcohol drugs. There's there's something that has changed lowered. Somebody's inhibitions or made the problem at hand. Same insurmountable in the moment that when they do survive in. And there's some clarity over this substance has gone and the and the situation the families at the bedside saying Gosh. We'd never wanted this to happen. We love you or sorry. You know that there's a group of people who find again and they find some meaning and purpose in their life again and then there's other people Act I had one patient who wrecked his car on on purpose Mister longtime ago. Rectus car on purpose survived. The wreck told the people in the emergency room that at the first chance he was going to kill himself again. Committed to the hospital manage to kill himself while in the hospital while the day before he was supposed to go to another long term rehabilitation thing So there are some people who really mean it right in the they'd completely lost any desire or intention to live and you can't do much for those folks but but but in my case I see a lot where it's the gunshot to the head. Where even in the last moment when they're pulling the trigger they're changing their mind? And their flinching in the shoot themselves listen they shoot their eye out or something but they don't die right. Those people a lot of times when they recover they have a whole new host of problems and disabilities but they somehow often can find their life again too and so our job in the or. I think I talked about in. The book is not to make those decisions or people It's just just to do our best to save lives and resort function to the extent that we can work on that same note. I'm going to go into something that in Amer me. This was page one hundred. Turn fifteen in your book and your quote you said not to diminish sadness and I'm going to take us a little bit different direction than where you took this because it just brought it brought up Let me read it not to diminish the sadness but is it a true accident if someone is hurt because he drives under the influence or doesn't wear a seatbelt or someone falls off a balcony and breaks her neck while high on Meth and injure an injury co joined with some aspect of preventable for preventable. Billy elite causation or intention. -ality and of course your point was with GM back to that it's random there's really nothing to blame and what was interesting to me as you wrote. That is which you find is harder for people to deal with. Is it harder to deal with something where there there is the possibility of them being culpable for it. Or is it better for them to deal with it when it's like GM and there's really nothing to point out. I think it depends on how somebody's wired. But you know as far as dealing with with the loss or injury of someone you care about if if you not being the patient but the dealing with the other person I find it. It's easier when people have something that can attach the causality to like. Oh Oh you know uncle Joe got lung cancer. But he's also smoked four packs a day for forty years. It's not really a surprise right so people are sad that it uncle Joe's passing away but they're not usually I shake their fist guide. About how unfair is this. Because there's some reason why it happened got that's and that's why I was fishing for. Yeah so so. There's an old joke. It's not really a joke. A joke about things that you shouldn't joke about the no kind of saying trauma that there's very few real accidents in trauma in what that means means is like I said in the book like people drink they take drugs. They put themselves in dangerous situations especially young adult males. You know they they go out in bars cars and they pick a fight. They do things where a little bit of wisdom on the front end would probably have prevented that accident from occurring so there are very few few true accidents meaning that we often put ourselves in situations through bad decision making her Being inaugurated or something else so when when when it's really the hard is when it's your five year old that slips on the is and has your head is in a coma but there's no way to explain that I mean there's ice there while I was there is there but it wasn't wasn't her fault she was just walking right and now she's in a coma with a hole in her head because the surgeon had to operate on her. That's to me harder for people to wrap their brains around and start best when people start saying why. Why did this thing happen God? Because they don't have that explanation. He was driving one hundred miles an hour and he was drunk. I can understand Dan how the accident occurred. You see what I'm saying like it when it's when it's random when it seems like the universe conspired against that person than it seems impossible to understand understand and sometimes impossible allow yourself to think of good God could ordain that thing to happen. I absolutely well and it jumped out at me. Lee Okay because so my business partner and such a best friend Dr Randy James is an Md.. He's Co host the true life show so are other new podcast. He's a functional medicine doctor and so he sees patients who are dealing with chronic illness disease not finding the answers they want and traditional no medicine they come to him and of course the majority of the pathology the ailments are lifestyle related for the most part point and I know this is where you get into slippery slippery slope people feel blamed and it's I'm that I'm there too. I have my own issues that I've so what caused myself my ignorance so I didn't know but as I've been in this world I feel like it's my responsibility to find more and more wisdom because I am culpable for myself but to what you said I've never really thought about it. This way and awesome good conversations on this when I see more hope in people and I sure feel it myself when I do feel some power over that so maybe I over here. I'm frustrated and maybe disappointed maybe anger that this is really. I'm I'm Paul blame somewhat but now I've got power as opposed to the patients and I literally never thought about it to this point till till right now and I'm glad I asked the question the patients who really really don't accept any culpability and any power in it are generally the ones who do not get better. It's a big medicine right there. It is and you know even in this even in the case of fatal diagnosis right. There's a huge difference in quality of life and people in fact tobacco up a little bit because if you haven't read the book. The whole notion of the premise of this is it got to me on a spiritual level when I started taking care of these patients aren't got out of my training training and I would say this guy's hosed I would look at the skin every medical term but I would look at his scan and I would see that global stolman even before four we buy seed. I knew what it was and I knew what was going to happen a new at the. Or wish going to look like a new your post op. Recovery period was GONNA look like I. I could see your wife's face in my the mind when I told you what the diagnosis was and I could see how long you radiation chemotherapy was gonna take and I could see when your hair would start falling out in a new about when you come back to my office. Listen you were thinking about going into hospice. And I could just project all that out because it was so reproducible with this particular disease and so I started having this problem because I knew from neuro science that people do better. They live longer. They have fewer infections that spend less time in the hospital to take less pain medicine when they hope and as a Christian. I'm supposed to believe James Five says if the effective fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much in gobble. Heal your diseases and god Bob will remove all your afflictions and all these things at the Bible says that our promises but here we have a disease that it he always says no to. So how am I supposed to be a good doctor. Her for this patient when I know that they're going to even if they don't survive they're going to have a better quality of life in their marriage is gonNA stay together in their kids are GonNa remember them better if they fight it and if they hold their hope up and all those things how much supposed to do that and be honest with them when at the same time I know they're they're not gonNA make it they're not going to survive this and at the same time tell him. I'm praying for him when I already know that. God's GonNa say not that clear if I'm if the target shooting at his survival now right so I got to that place where I. I was in such a conundrum that I didn't know what to do with myself and said that the cop out for me was that I sort of I cannot cannot pause for just one second Yup getting a college fuzzy for once. Yeah yeah all right well. Of course. We'll edit that out but there you go. I'll leave this in their are folks. There's the candidness of a doctor on call as we had to pause as you've got a call from the Er what you had an amazing. What an amazing life you know in literal prayers? Where here we are praying to God? I'll admit after all all these years. Sometimes I find myself unsure of what to say to. You got in the moment and I know you talk about this in the book. But as our everyone's faith faith evolves you how do you find yourself sometimes balancing or even as you formulate your prayers when you have somebody who has is something where you see in the end of them you know that they're by by every you know much as you have experienced they're going to die and yet are you praying for still praying that God. You can't heal. Hopefully that you you will do that but then also cashing that with praying that they will just deal with it. Well yeah that's really what's what's changed the most. In my prayer life after losing a child and after twenty years working around the sickest people people in the world really is coming to that understanding that global. Bus Doma is not in fact. Mankind's deadliest disease hopelessness is is now and so coming to this idea that that the most important thing for guide to give me or you or anybody else when we're in hard times is is the ability to walk through that and carry ourselves well and continue to live while we're living even if we're dying. Yeah your your own faith. I mean today would you say that in Lee warns faith that you doubt less or you have come to be more at peace with the grappling of your doubts. I think that's a good way to say I was GonNa say I definitely don't doubt less because I still do I think the best advice anybody ever gave me was Philip. Yancey said you know The bottles full of doubters and it's okay with guide in this in in a in a wrote about chaplain John in the in the in the book talking about how one of the reasons he believes in God is that we have a Bible all full of stories of people who are allowed to express their doubts to him like if a person wrote that book that would ride it more perfectly. No you're not allowed to doubt me you have to. You have to follow me completely around might you that. That's how human would write that story right absolutely her guide to the for God to say Haley. Your broken guy and you've been through a lot of hard things there's GonNa be some things that challenge you in one. They do what I don't want you to never waver I want you to talk to me right right and that's where I got you what God really wanted from me in. That was to say God. I will never understand why this happened. My son in fact as I told them the story like we don't even still know what happened and we can't. We never will know what happened. Less money comes forward and tells us we'll never know and so I had to come to peace with this idea. Yeah the one of my children was taken from me. And I can't know why and I can't ever expect to know why and I'm going going to have to still live in my life still has to have some meaning and and I said you know if I can't make my life something that Mitch will be proud love and I might as well quit because it's got a main something or his life was really a tragedy and I don't want him my son's life to have been a tragedy wanted to be a victory right and so I think what what my face looks like now is I trust the fact that even even when I'm doubting I will again find faith because I know that have been in the darkest place there is and even when I couldn't see light you know. Listen I we even talked about it a few times. We can't see it but it's enough to just know that you don't have to. You don't have to see the sunrise yet but if you just survive the night it will. We'll come back. You have to believe that the sun is still out there right and that's how God shows himself over time when you're in the hardest thing that happens if you can just hold on. Tell him what you're Feelin Elon. He always somehow manages to the chew up a little bit and make it a little bit better since somebody along to put their arm around just the right time or papa scripture in your mind that you know. That's one of those tools by the way that taught my kids. We talked about instruments for self brain surgery this a whole bunch of scripture in a whole bunch of good books looks and good things in your heart that will pop out. When you're under pressure? I it that if you've got some scripture in there if you have some promises is that you know that pop back up. That's what the Holy Spirit does I think is is he says. Hey Kevin I am going to be close to when this hard thing happens if you don't have if you haven't read the promises and if you haven't stuffed them in there it's hard for him to come back out when you need them. I'll be sharing that with my family tonight on the dinner dinner table because my wife has my kids. My five youngest memorizing the first chapter James Are Right now so at advent advent last night they they recited what they know and that's her perspective with that is having the implanted word of God. We you You know it's there's so many poignant aspects of your message of your story that stood out to me too many for me to say that there was one that was paramount. But this one right here that I want us to land on. You shared a perspective that you came to about story that in movies. He's and books that we don't focus so much on the trials the characters face or even whether they survived them where move by and remember the characters actors who face those trials well hold up under the strain and live or die true to themselves or they're calling that's right out of the book and I thought About Myself Lee and I am so task oriented I focus on the end result and I'm not rare in that you know mission focused and that but here you are saying that if I were a move if I think about today my day tomorrow as a movie people are watching what they're mostly interested in because it resonated so much with me you're totally right is how am coping with it. Along the way. Last night we watched a wonderful life. I watch it every Christmas. and Ah that is as I was reviewing these notes today and thinking about that data is the movie how many people remember the debacle that George Bailey got in and what really happened at the end. They don't they're focused on the in between and his trial in there and he was obviously not one of your. He wasn't number four on your list of just taking the tragedy and the trauma easily or well he he dove way down and that is just convicting and for you to come to that is for folks. Of course I'm going to be pushing you go get the book this is as I said in the intro. It's a IT'S ONE I. I don't know if I've ever read a what I'm GONNA put in the self help. Category Book or Personal Development Read One. That had me that enraptured. I was reading a novel. I wanted to see what happened next. And yet impacted me so deeply Lee and that right there may be the one. That's the most paramount to me wearing a spectator culture. We're all on screens. Watching stories were enamored. I think sometimes we're enamored hammered by even more because we're not living big stories ourselves as the culture evolves and so. We're watching the stories to hear that here. You come to that. Kamini was again. It was one of those impacting things that I read about in the book that made me feel incredibly accountable to not the results that I'm getting not the paycheck. I'm bringing home not the event I'm doing with my kids or the experience I'm taking my family on or or whatever it is but it's just on how I did I. Would I be proud of the movie that I walked out today. In the mundane aspects of life or through the trauma or tragedy. You know that that came. It's interesting to me that I knew in my heart. I was supposed to write of seeing the interview told the story to you know what I ended up. Writing my first book about the Iraq war shortages there is trauma surgeon their first because sort of copped out. It's easier for me to write a tell all of what it was like to be in the war than it was. It was to write about faith doubt but what happened was as I prepared to write that book. No place to hide I learned about telling stories. I read all those books and Robert McKee in all all the books about telling stories and learning how to write and then it dawned on me as I was living out. Walking among all these people with brain tumors and after we lost our son especially like like God put all that stuff about story in my place. I could see it for what it is when I was living out mine. Like what kind of story would Mitch want me to tell what the days of my life after he passed away right as you. You want to think about as you're living. You WanNa think about what your grandkids are going to say about you right how much money they grandpa Mike. You don't want the you don't care about that you care about man ma'am. My grandfather was a hero. He was my he was my hero. He was the guy that show me how to be a good man right. You want those kinds of things to be part of your story. Not I just how much money you made or how many podcast downloads you had or all those things right. You want it to be about the story that your life told and how you held up to the various trials as an aside. He talked about James One hall ago. And that's James One is one of those. It's a bamboo splinter under my fingernails. When I was going through a hard arthur? Because if you decide that you're going to believe the words so that you can claim the good ones and not have to reject the hard ones. If you decide you're going to believe leave them then you run into James One and it says consider it pure joy when you face trouser various 'cause knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance right. And you say why. Why don't you put that in there like why did you? Why did you do that to me? God like why do you tell me. I've got to think about some way to find joy out of this. Seems awfully cruel. Tom's Suraya but it's another one of those things like Romans. Eight twenty eight that comes down to perspective and you can't get perspective without time and space from the thing that you're going through and that's why you never ought to pick up the gun and end it. You got to go through it because if you believe that God's GonNa Produce something good three This event in your life or that guy's going to turn you into some better version of yourself through these trials or help somebody else through it than in your fail if you ended without going through it right so you've gotta put yourself through. What is called the furnace of suffering? You've gotta let him refine can you in that way or you can't get to that place where he had that backwards perspective to say. You know what you're right like I did grow through that. It was the worst thing in the worst time nine but all of a sudden. I'm around all these broken people and they don't maybe have the background or the tools or the the things that I had the perspective that I have and I can put my arm around them and I can be. He who pastor John was for me and I can say hey might not feel like it right now but you're going to get through this and so for me that was James One was one one of those triggering a callously really but it. But it's true it comes out to be true if you could just walk through it long enough to get that perspective on the. I'm just just. I'm grateful for what you've done here at the point out. Maybe I'll add it to the intro that you really pursued you. Talk about this in the book the craft of writing and in the realm of the types of books that I generally read and that I bring the guest authors who I bring on the show. I Ah can't say that in the past five years of doing this that I have read a book that was Both as impacting and enthralling to read. So Oh just just so impressed and grateful that I got a hold of it. I'M GONNA thank your agency again for bringing you. Thanks for taking the time. Thank you for doing what you do. I hope I can get as many people as possible to read this book and a digest this message. Thank you it's been a real honor to be with you today and I appreciate the time. Thank you Lee friends. I know that was a deep show but I hope you were moved as much as I have been. I know I always recommend my guest books but and I won't say this is better than any other but I will say What I did at the top of the show? There aren't many books that have ever been this engaging page-turners and packed with such deep impacting message. Again you can get. I've seen the interview. Wherever you get books you can pre-order pre-order it now as it comes out January seventh two thousand nineteen And connect with Dr Warned W Lee Warren MD DOT com. And make sure you check out the doctor Lee worn podcast. We're coming up in episode seven. Forty four does your work interest. You should your work truly introduced to. What are you missing if it? It does not though as you'll hear in the show maybe interest in your work is not the absolute end all but here's a question. I posed to ziglar audience. Do you find your work to be interesting. Interesting yes or no. And how. Much weight on your work fulfillment. Does this have. The question came from a short message. We're going to hear from Zig Ziglar or he cited a survey conducted about the workplace using what are asking what employees wanted. Managers said. They wanted good wages job security promotions. The workers workers however responded with number one interesting work So there's no commentary I could give that would be valuables hearing what you. The audience responded with so. I think you'll enjoy the show. Tom Ziegler join me as we talk through all the comments till then thank you as always for letting me walk with you as we inspire are are true performance together new.