Joe's New Podcast
Hello this is Joe and I have a new podcast if you haven't heard already it's me and also my friend. Vincent said's what's up Johnny. Yeah and We're presenting an episode of. You might have heard our first episode last week before warned. This is not going to be showing up in the sideways speed forever. So you need to go out. I tunes look up the shocking details. Which is the name of our new podcast. Shocking detail shocking details emery. Yeah man subscribe course give us a rating five stars and all that stuff joe from inside ways podcast and they're welcome to another episode of the shocking details. I'm joined as always by Vincent Gal Doni and we've got the story for you this week. Interesting little story that you probably never heard about and I know it's not Halloween but really anytime of the year is a good time for a ghost story right Vince. Especially if it's an Arkansas. Coast or yeah. This isn't Arkansas goes story. This particular story got a lot of national publicity back on. It happened this late. Nineteen twenty nine but it's completely dropped into obscurity sense so I have never heard of this when you set this to me and I heard it was the Arkansas Ghost. I literally thought it was a different story altogether. Yeah don't we know this one but it was not the story. That wasn't just a ghost. A ghost trial here. Anyway Dredge story up and shock you all with the gory details so a start at the beginning. This judge mark is owned residing in the child these defendants of murder Conrad's Franklin is the State's prosecution. President KNAPP is a victim January nineteen twenty nine. A man named Connie Franklin came to the Saint James Settlement in Arkansas. That's a town of Saint James if you want to know where this town is It's about ten miles east of the town of Mountain View. About seventy five miles north northeast of little rock about one hundred ten miles northwest of Memphis Tennessee. And it's really it's there today but it's kind of a wide spot in the road really. Yeah but it's still there but Connie Franklin found himself jobs as a farmhand timber cutter and what he wasn't working. He was known for playing. Is French. Harp also known as the harmonica or just the harp And also for hitting on the local women? Yeah which you know. What else is there to do right now? Much split Monica and talk to the girl pretty much. He met a local girl named Tiller Room. Honor Tiller was sixteen by the way. Connie was about twenty two years old. The two of them headed off real good had whirlwind romance and according to Tiller on March Nights nineteen twenty nine conic proposed marriage and she accepted so that is whirlwind. He's really yeah. It is but then county Franklin disappeared the townsfolk noticed although nobody seemed to think it was exceptionally odd because Connie was after all kind of an itinerant farmhand type guy and there was a lot of that back. This is not to twenty nine home. A lot of people drifted around from job. Oh yeah especially in the world like like wheat and stuff that would follow the harvest as it as it matured. Absolutely did seem a bit odd. Apparently Connie had left his knapsack behind and his mail was still be delivered to local post office. Which you wouldn't expect. I mean if you had taken up residence somewhere else you would think he wouldn't have the same as mail forwarded perhaps make sense yeah but nonetheless it was just assumed by most everybody. Khania just drifted out of town the same way drifted in and he'd only been there a couple of months after all. Anyway right right right so he was soon forgotten by most of the folks in the town except a few of them found his announced departure to be kind of suspect Especially seventy named Bertha Burns. Who will talk about a little later? She was an armchair detective. Who kind of involved in this mystery lady? Yeah she was she was actually sort of harassing the sheriff on off about this for months after conscious appearance. You GotTa do it if you want stuff done. Yeah Bat of course you know just because Berta suspicious about something does not being. The sheriff can go arrest. Somebody know right. What what did Tiller think about this? I mean she must have had an opinion about him running out of town. Well Yeah but she wasn't really talking. Interestingly enough until until later that year in November nineteen twenty nine okay. That is went. Tiller finally came forward and told her story. You want to the local sheriff Sam Johnson and told him that Connie Franklin had been murdered back in March. She hadn't said anything about to anybody because the murderers were local guys night. Riders in other words vigilantes and they had told her that she and her family would all be killed she snatched but eventually tillered decide to snatch and here is her story though on March Ninth. Nineteen twenty nine. Connie Tiller Rana country road headed a local justice of the Peace Venice Ford to get a marriage license. South of Saint James. Not far from the tiny town of Red Stripe. Arkansas love. That name that's a great name Jamaican Beer. Yeah they were ambushed by four men. Joe White Bill Younger Herman Greenway and Hubert Hester Greenway and Hester Raped Tiller. And they made her watch while they beat. Connie to death with rocks and sticks. It's a hell of a way to go see a really They built a large fire and burned. Connie's body many of the news. Articles made reference to mutilation dismemberment as well but none of those stories are get down to the details of what what got off. Yeah I know what exactly they did to. It sounds pretty horrifying. Yeah Yeah and we should note that There's at least one newspaper. That said that Connie was unconscious but still alive when he was put into the fire but whatever by the time he was all done he was he was dead. Oh Yeah and there wasn't much left around but charred bones. And if you yeah. It's hard to get rid of. Tiller story was corroborated. By Ruben. Herrell a deaf mute guy who happened to be there also happened to be tillers second cousin not sure why he was there or maybe was tagging along as a witness to the wedding. Maybe we're just stocking stock. Maybe he was secretly in love with a second cousin. Likes that happens. Maybe he was murderer. Yeah I was hoping we would get to the bottom of what he was up to. But we don't ever really find out who I really got me. Guess he could've just been out on the road and it was just a coincidence area. Maybe yeah but he He gave a written statement to the county prosecutor backing up tillers account his account by the way didn't claim that he'd seen the rape or the murder just that he saw the accused caring. Connie's body through the woods. Yeah many things out there moonshine. Yeah so he saw them carrying guys dead corpse but this is not part of the story that which is why. Why did these guys spare him? Yeah Despair Ruben did he. Was He hiding from them or maybe they thought they never talk. Maybe they threaten him the same way. They did Tiller Ruben actually couldn't talk but he could still write what she and I was just how he made his statement. It's hard for me to imagine that if there was something like that. Ruben wouldn't hit that he wouldn't have mentioned that. That seems like a detail to me. I would want to include like if I was witness to a murder and I was giving a statement about what I had seen that day I would for sure. Include widen the killer. Try to kill me. He might have. I mean most of the The accounts this this is actually kind of A Lot was written about this in the national press at the time but of course the press being what? It is a lot of there were. There were a lot of distortions. A lot of valuable little details like that got left out. I read a number of accounts at Meshing Rubin and his account. They didn't say exactly why he didn't get killed by the by these guys whenever they didn't say that. And so I. I really can't say why. So they left out some really good important little details and also inserted some probably fictional more salacious details to make the story a little juicier. No doubt I mean. That's how they did it back then. A local woman named Bertha Burns as I mentioned before it took an interest in the Connie Franklin mystery birth apparently live not too far from where county had been murdered and she had found a bloody hat in the woods that she believed was. Connie's showed it to sheriff. Johnson Johnson presented the hat to a grand jury which declined to indict anybody. Because you know it's not unreasonable. To bloody hat after all not much else I mean. Yeah then. Blood does get on stuff. Yeah I mean if you cut your head for some reason you might just throw your hat off me like I'm not wearing that ever again. Yeah and actually I feel as we'll get to a little bit later on the story. There was kind of a not unreasonable explanation for that being bloody Yup. Yeah so in the summer of Nineteen Twenty Nine Connie sister or at least a young woman claiming to be Connie sister came to Saint James. Looking for him. Bertha Burns took this more evidence that there had been indeed foul play after all so if Connie had simply migrated Shirley he would let his family know where he had gone to. Bertha dug out the bloody hat show to the sister and then led sheriff Johnson into the woods near her home to a pile of burnt bones. Teeth and ashes. This was all that remained of Connie or at least that's what Bertha believed. She also told the sheriff that she'd heard a scream coming from the area on the night that Connie disappeared or more likely some time around that time since birth couldn't actually precisely known which exact night. Connie had yeah. That's definitely a little puzzling isn't it? Yeah yeah so at so hearing all this Tiller Room and her finally should sat down with Sheriff Johnson and told her tale of murder not long after of course TILLERS COUSIN. Ruben submitted his written statement backing her story up this was finally enough for the grand jury to indict and they did. Astor greenway widened. Younger were all indicted for murder. Another local named Alex folks was also indicted even though tillered not mentioned him originally in her story. Apparently he was accused because he was known to be the ringleader of this little gang. Of course he must have been involved right. I mean there's no way he took the night off now I nine. What else was there to do except to go out with your fellow night riders and have a little fun right sure. Yeah but it turns out also that Alex box and a few of France had beaten Bertha. Burns's husband a few months prior to this for unknown reasons. These guys were essentially kind of self designated moral enforcers in the area. Yeah I was GONNA ask what would their affiliation. Where were they just highway bandits? Were they in the clan? What was there? Were not in the clan. As far as I know they were just kind of vigil. Anti moral enforcers. And so seventy eight straight. Somebody committed after some transgression. They would go administer. A little frontier justice apparently well not short of course of lynching except you know as far as I know is the only person that day ever killed. Okay Yeah Right. Yeah but yeah. Apparently somebody had transgressed especially if they transgressed against them personally right. I'M GONNA work watching about that later. Yeah awesome keep going. Yeah but this leads to the question about birth burns and her role in all this was sheer. We'll see just armchair detective or was she sort of spearheading out. A way to get back at these people were attacking her husband beating him. What the very least. She's got conflict of interest a little bit. I would say there's a reason to to wonder exactly about her object objectivity in this whole so. It's also worth mentioning that the day. After Connie's murder or disappearance are four vigilantes raided the cabin that Tiller Room? Her and her family lived in. They accused Charlie Room. Tillers father of theft. I can't tell you what she's what he stole. Yeah I don't know what he did. They administered by for the entire family from that Assad. Nice guys kid at home like you're like eating your your cheerios and someone comes into. Your Dad's stole from me. Kid I mean he's he's should be pointed out to this. It's hard to sort out truths from river from this whole story. Yeah it is strange story. And they beat the whole family and after that they took tillers brother. Hoy with them to work on their farms as reparations for Charlie's crime whatever that was yeah so it must have been a crime against them like we know them. Yeah he stole something from one of them. Apparently now so tiller would later say that. They took hoyt as a hostage to keep her silent about the murder. I guess that's SORTA halfway make sense. It was yesterday after that whole thing. Maybe they thought you know. The threats were not quite enough. Let's go yeah just this kind of an insurance policy that makes sense does make sense now remember. All of this happened before there are any serious accusations of murder. Yes absolutely mind. This would have happened in mid March. And that's right on. Yeah so let's let's flash forward to the trial of Greenway Hester white younger and folks. Yeah it was all set for December nineteen twenty nine and local anger toward the accused was running high so they were being kept in jail cells outside the county for their own protection. Evidence for the prosecution was two witnesses That would be tiller and her cousin. The ear witness testimony of Bertha Burns regarding the scream A bloody hat and what was left at the body which was some charred bones and teeth and of course the fact that contract was gone with seeing the kind of point towards some sort of foul play right the five defendants however had been saying since their arrests that no murder had taken place. Connie was not dead. They said well in that case then. Where was a lousy obvious question? Nobody knew this but the case by this time it receives state wide publicity so Connie was alive. You would think you would have heard about this and come forward right right so you know. The the prosecution did appear to have some sort of a case. Then I mean Lebron would it be beyond in European beyond the Pale that Connie could've left the state. I'd went someplace else to work or do whatever not this. Not Beyond the rubber possibility. Yeah so but The prosecution seem that they some sort of circumstantial case and intact body probably would have helped right but Still doubts were growing in some quarters as to whether they're really had even been a murderer. Yeah the trump got well. The trial was hold on. Just so actually I. I wanted to ask you this when you when you sent me. The research material. Yeah unless Bertha was lying. Yeah someone got murdered. Someone got burned on her property right. Yeah or in the woods near a home. That was her property or not it. It appeared from the ashes the bones teeth and everything that somebody had been murdered right. I mean this is not forensic. Yeah today they didn't he probably been have blood type especially if about. He's been thoroughly. Burn anyway but I would think that them being a farming community could tell when you're looking at human teeth versus a deer thing right like well you know and They sent you know they want to be all official about it. They actually gathered all the evidence up incentive to the state crime lab to be examined so somebody is dead. We just don't it appeared that somebody was dead. Okay but it. It did appear to be that that of course The to some more evidence about this comes out a little bit later about the body but this is now Beginning of December early December. The trial is about to begin And that is when the ghost of Connie Franklin appeared. I know we've got said it was a ghost story. I know but I know attention attention mounts but before we go any further time for a quick word from our sponsor. This week's episode is brought to you by the motion picture. Contact directed by Vincent Caledonia's reacted by Vincent Caledonia's So the movie contact is a story about aliens. In humans. Interacting it is a psychological thriller where you will never be quite sure what is real until the very end in that at all you can check it out at? Www contacting movie dot com. Watch the trailer he stills and find out about it all right. I haven't seen the entire Bibi yet. I've seen some some parts of it. Yeah Yeah it's got a cameo from it does have a little bit part in it and you'll be happy to have my clothes on. Yeah Yeah thank God. It's not the kind of movie now. Okay so the five men were about to be tried for the murder of Connie Francis but then said Connie Francis Johnny. Frankly I leave that in this. Kinda Francis was a singer. Yeah skit singer okay. So the firemen were about to be tried for the murder of Connie Franklin but then one elmer wingo from the nearby town of Morrilton says Connie Franklin passed through there looking for work a week or so after the alleged murder was supposed to have allegedly taken place Elmer Wingo was a farmer and Connie Franklin had worked on his farm a few years before so he would know economy. Look like right exactly. Yeah and Arkansas. Newspapers ran the story along with Connie's photo and the families of the accused also author awards for anyone who could find him and Amazingly Connie Franklin westbound. All it took was a little money to motivate people That still works does he. was working on a fire in the town of. Humphrey apparently unaware that he had been murdered. He was brought back to the county seat and delivered to the defense attorneys. They were happy of course as where the accused and their families. And of course the media when we're got out I mean the media already been drawn to town because of the the the the depravity of the store perish. It's the kind of thing that excites people you know and that it had already made the national news even before the return of Confrontation Ryan. And it's a good story right as I thought it was a heinous crime. Say are on their way to get their marriage license and overtaken by Maddie's biens rapes burnings. Eli Yeah it was and so the media was already cut all over this but then when Connie returned town on my God then that's when things really got crazy and currently the the town of Mountain view which is where the county courthouse was which is where the trial was supposed to take place became. The TAB became a circus it was over with reporters and just curiosity seekers and stuff like that. You know it was back in the. Everybody came from far and wide because there wasn't much in the way of entertainment there was no Internet No. Tv. You know. And so yeah. The national press descended like a murder of crows and It's it did shock the nation And it's really been said to that. The stereotype of the ozark mountain people as depraved illiterate. Morons kind of began with this story. Some people said this and I think there's something to that sense. Connie Franklin had after all risen from the dead he was knicks nicknamed the Arkansas Ghost and the media. Great Name Yeah. The Arkansas goes story went viral. Or at least you know whatever past for virology in those days story. It's a pretty fascinating story be. It'd be pretty amazing. That happened today. I mean the world's different Yes guy turned up at his own trial. Yeah yes his murder trial murder trail. Yeah so Some people weren't convinced that this new Connie was the real. Connie maybe it was his goat. Steady without it might have been ago. That would be a twist. Maybe someone had hired a ringer. Maybe the sheriff was wondering that too so he set up. Test recruited several girls who resembled tiller room honor and he put them in a room along with teller herself and then he asked. Connie Hair quotes air. Quotes there to pick her out which he did with out hesitation. Okay so maybe. He'd seen a photo of her thermometer photos in the paper for all we know right. Yeah until her for her part said. This guy was not the Connie that she'd known connie new all sorts of personal things about tiller and their relationship and she did have an incentive to lie because making a false police report like that is a crime. Yeah maybe she thought if it was false he just thought Kani was gone. He was coming back and she'd get away with. Sokaiya says the remember them songs I say to you. We sat side the creek and Taylor says okay. Well if you're ready. Let's hear you sing. The lonesome pine much. Connie dead and Connie does and does a pretty credible rendition of an then. Tillers Dad Charlie. Rumor says well okay. Let's see you play Turkey and Straw the French harp. Coyote does that too long as one of the tunes. You know just as well as the original county did man so six. Yeah according to the court into the papers They seem they seem to be unsure this point in time though later on eventually they decided to do. Connie was definitely most definitely not the old. Connie do what what made them decide this? I don't know just his looks or whatever I guess though it's You know I mean we'll get into. Why is so hard to hard to figure out if this was a real county or not my okay? Public public opinion in town was pretty divided on the issue but You know it should be said that. Connie wasn't around that long. Not that many people had known him that well frankly many people saw the guy was Connie. Maybe say some many said he wasn't but the problem for the Sheriff and the county prosecutor is that they really couldn't find anybody who had known. Connie who didn't have an interest in the case on one side of the I make sense. Yeah so it's a tough one for small towns are yeah so rather than pull the plug on the case. The prosecutor decided the best way to resolve. The issue is to let the jury decide. I would hold on that for a moment. Yeah the victim may not actually even be deceased. They're going ahead with the murder trial. I mean that's pretty spectacular. That's insane imagine that happening today. Yeah yeah defense. Attorney would definitely have have a good time with this whole thing. Oh Wow yeah so. I just wanted to highlight that. That's that was really for me. When I was reading the material you sent at first. I was like that is crazy. Yeah that's crazy case right. So the trial gets underway beginning on December Seventeenth nineteen twenty nine and sitting at the prosecutor's table was Hugh Williams in the county. Da The attorney for the defense was Ben Williamson US brother. As you can imagine the national press one not so factoid. Yeah One more reason to make fun of these silly ozark people. Oh Man Yeah. Yeah along with the general traits of a murder trial where the victim is like walking around. Maybe now first day of the trial Tiller gave some pretty dramatic testimony. She recounted how why younger greenway and Hester ambushed them and beat Connie unconscious they then mutilated his body. No details for that are available now. He built a large fire around him and put him on the fire even though he was still alive. So the body roll off the fires and the murderers had rebuild it and put the body back on and when it was done the number parts of Connie were put in a bag and tossed into the river work on prosecution place charred bones and teeth in evidence but their case took a bit of a hit of the state. Health officer testified in across examination that the bone fragments were too incomplete to be able to determine whether the bones were even human much less. Connie Franklin's the record is not totally clear on this. Apparently there had been originally in the race. It was a Shard of what will appear to be a human skull And that piece of evidence had apparently gone missing by the time of the trial so without that Charlotte of skull Essentially there was no proof that these bones were even human but what about the teeth? Human Teeth are pretty easy to identify competitor. Well Dad has testified also he had examined teeth and said they were actually from a dog or perhaps a sheep. What WAIT NO WAR SHEEPDOG? Or maybe a sheep dog or is she. Yeah Day to Connie Franklin took the stand defense witness is was as far as the only time in US history that somebody has testified at the trial for his own murder. That's pretty groundbreaking. Legally speaking according to Cadiz testimony in his murderers got drunk on the night that he was allegedly murdered and headed about view to obtain a marriage license. Okay and Connie fell off his mule at some point because of course he was drunk and was injured badly enough that he probably blended his hat for one thing and also didn't get back to. Saint James Settlement that night And that was his story. I mean who knows? They were all drunk. Maybe they'd go out and have a little bachelor party and Did some improper things. You don't really know. But apparently he was expected back in town that night by Tiller so the next day when he did get back. Tiller told her she was postponing the wedding until the fall he's through down in ultimate him which was marry me now today or I'm leaving town. She said so. You left town and that was that for the prosecution argued. That Connie was an imposter. This new yeah. He also asked the jury. Why would tiller have made up a story like this? That's my question I am good point Which would send several innocent men to the GAL? Why would she even do that? What did she have against that of? What would be the motive? Yeah right so the other three witnesses said the new. Connie was an imposter tiller. Her Dad Charlie. And One Coleman Foster who had known. Connie Coleman was also tillers cousin. Your cousin problem with this is a small community. Let's go much credit. Oh yeah of the people who swore that Connie was not the real. Connie none really seem to be unrelated to the accuser Someone's Connie Really Connie. We'll know he's real name. It turns out was Marion Franklin Rogers and he was about ten years older than what he told me. He Lied Alive. Said he was a younger man. A wife and kids Turned out. Yeah yeah that was the case and he had abandoned him Oh and he had done some time in a mental hospital he had been committed in nineteen twenty six and escaped three months later. He'd been drifting around the state ever since so this new. Connie Franklin wasn't real then right now actually he was idea as Marian Rogers who fingerprints and dental records. He was indeed Mary Ann Rogers but he said he had been traveling around since his escape from the mental student or an alias of Connie Franklin. What's kind of I guess makes sense? So he said even though even though I lied about my name. I really truly Connie Franklin you guys knew previously. Okay I was just lying to you back then I write about my past and about my real name all right. And what is that This is ground ground shaking for the case. Prosecution's case at this time Tiller changed her story. She said that she had witnessed a beating but now admitted that she hadn't actually seen a murder or seeing Connie's body burn. So that's kind of tough the tough one yeah. The accused said that Tiller accused of rape and murder as payback for the raid on. Her family makes sense. Yeah actually it could be argued that the entire story of Connie Connie's murder was fruit of a conspiracy. And that conspiracy was just another chapter in a long-running feud yeah maybe orchestrated by perhaps Bertha Burns early. She seemed to have had some role in. Maybe yeah maybe the room and her family and Bertha Got Together. Decided they pull this off? Yeah it's hard to say it's been said. The story had roots in a local moonshine. War between the Hess clan on one side of the younger greenaway's on the other side. Count Count. Feels that way. I not really a big old back story here that we'd never heard about right. He does feel like we're witnessed like this whole trial is the tip of Abegg Iceberg. And there's probably GONNA be more in here we don't even know about. Oh Yeah so presented with these weird and conflicting stories. Probably the same thoughts that we're having right now the jury they couldn't decide they retain the judge the honorable. Marcus bone grit name as a great name for judge informed them that the county had already spent an ungodly amount of money on this case and they got weld. God willed damned come to a verdict one way or the other so they voted for acquittal. Nah that probably not a bad choice not does that's probably what I'd vote although Hester in greenaway were held over for trial charges of rape but those charges were dropped a year later. I wonder why it doesn't sound like it was a very credible credible station. Wouldn't as the rest of their lives on though I hear the story of the Arkansas goes to still big topic of debate in stone. County Arkansas. Everybody involved as long data civil. Never know for sure what actually happened. Was there actually a murder? It's hard to say but I suspect that there was not no mess. The prosecution set. Of course it's hard to believe that Tiller rumor would make up such a heinous story but on the other hand people do make false accusations from time to time. Sure certainly the fact that she changed her story. Mid Trial is sufficient reason to question all of it. I and I also have to say that property of the crime is she describes. It makes it a little hard to believe. I mean the guys that these guys were. They were vigilant. As it were jerks they were violent to a certain extent but it doesn't sound to me like they ever committed anything more heinous than basically kind of a beating you know. That's actually the the exact thought that I had was that. If you'RE GONNA kill a man. Yeah rape his fiancee and burn him to death still alive. It's probably not like your first Rodeo. Yeah probably not. That's not where you start now where you build up to overtime. Yeah well so was Mary. Ann Rogers the original. Connie frankly yeah. This is hard to say. Franklin was not in Saint James Long enough for people to to know him as I mentioned before everybody involved had some bias lost. People said he wasn't the same guy lots said he. said that He was a lot of people. Said he wasn't the same and really seemed to dislike the accused men. And so yeah. Confusion reigns conclusions. I'm Mary Ann. Rogers was probably the original. Connie Franklin showed up in the early nineteen twenty nine. But I wouldn't bet my life on it. I think probably was but I think so. It might actually be the case that Franklin was brutal brutally murdered in March nineteen twenty nine verion. Rogers was an imposter Maybe Tiller Change your story mid trial because friends of the accused somehow got to put the fear God into her or maybe not. I don't know I think part of what his hangs on. Is that the bone pile. Yeah I mean if those really were dog or sheep bone gas because those are confuse than I would be inclined to go your way if those bones had turned out to be human which an expert even then could have told you even though I mean this is Arkansas twenties. Let a few experts. Yeah if they had that or even if they're around somewhere today which are probably not then I would turn out to be human I would be inclined to say somebody got killed that night and that person was likely whoever Connie Franklin was weather that was his real name with. That was an assumed name again and again you know again you got to like looking at the whole thing. I mean Bertha Burns had a grudge against these accused men who had beaten her husband. The Room and our family had a garage and see how she was the one who led law enforcement to this pile of bones and ashes and tease and stuff and so maybe she just thought you know hey I mean forensic scientists and what is going to be in sixty years. Ha Ha 'cause I bet and so I'll just. I'll just throw a sheep dog bones into a pile Burnham crush them up so that they're just unrecognizable and and and lied to the police. Maybe she that's what she did. That's I find that as easy to believe if not easier to believe the only problem I have with that is that conspiracies are hard to maintain their. I mean we've seen that in the research we've done you can listen to other podcasts. Read books about this requires a lot of co-conspirators right so birth in her husband. You've got the room and her family. Yeah but what? If it was entirely orchestrated by birth. She just manipulated the other people around her and what she wants. She talked tiller into into basically telling this story. She kind of had her on the hook. Tiller couldn't go back on. See that's true. She'd be in there she will not perjury. Its report false reporting of a crime or yeah harsh penalty should really I mean? Yeah something like this. You waste not only time and money. Judge alone said it costs. A lot of money did apparently broke the broke. The county's budget that year. Yeah so You know throw one more theory at you. Watch what we're talking. What if those working bounds in there? But they weren't whoever Connie Franklin yeah slash Mary. Ann Rogers was what if Bertha killed somebody and this was her plan to cover it up. That's a good possibility to. There's all kinds of reasons to burn a body. I mean some people not everybody berries bodies. Maybe somebody thought you know I will burn them like Burnham like our ancient ancestors did maybe this person died of something something infectious and they just thought okay. Let's burn the body. Now it's true. And then also you get you know I I just this is just popped into my head. This during prohibition if moonshine owners were out there moonshine and one of them died for one reason or the other. The last thing you want to do is call corner. Yeah yeah so there's Yeah there's Dad. This is backed not even in Arkansas. And all kinds of places really Erica things. There wasn't so much paperwork when somebody died today. Nope so there's a rumor that judge marcus bone again because of all. This negative publicity ordered all the records from the trial destroyed. I love it except for the ones that he was legally obligated to keep so. That's why there are a lot of questions about the Arkansas. Ghost is it. Can't just pull up these Gadgets go look these things because I also you know he would if he didn't do that. Things have a way of disappearing You know I was. There was another case. I was researching where there was some stuff that had just been swiped out of the out of the county records. Well there's that and there's there's a podcast that I follow and they are trying to get old court records from you know just from the nineties. Yeah but they're they've been stored improperly. They're covered in mildew. And you know this is only from the from nineteen ninety side though right so you've store them properly in a place where water is leaking where there's mold and mildew and you play that out over eighty ninety year. Yeah well good luck. Then they're gone. They're they're dissolved altogether and it actually really is a problem in our country. How we have all of these civil legal records that are just not properly being stored in our decaying making it harder to know about older kisses in violence although the plus side though is that you know if you if you were convicted of a crime yourself that hey maybe the record is sort of just naturally being not true. I would love to hear it like ninety year. Old Convicts fee on that. But any b-actor. Our story is speaking of Mary. Ann Rogers what happened to him? After the trial he left town again resumed his itinerary lifestyle in nineteen thirty two though he was found the line by the side of a road half dead and he died two days later of appendicitis and exposure tiller. Rumor went on to get married and had some kids and beyond that she just sort of dropped back in security and I know no more of what happened to her. So also the tiny hamlet of Red Stripe. Oh yeah awesome name. That's a great name. Yeah that's where the murder supposedly took place nearby anyway. Yeah on the road to it or outside. It's still there but after the trial they changed the name to pleasant grove because of all the negative publicity is like a guy you can find. It's still very type in pleasant grove. Yeah IT POPS RIGHT UP I actually. I did it and I found that super far from a friend of mine grew up. I'll really she's from that area Governor of Arkansas publicly now suppress for their behavior and said that they'd made the citizens of North Arkansas out to be hayseeds and idiots as I said earlier the story really does appear to have had a cultural impact and cemented the image of rural America's backward and ignorant in the minds of city dwellers with a special place reserved for the Hillbilly of the ozarks. Who really were described in the national papers as depraved illiterate morons? Yeah there is a there was a guy named Brooks blevins. He is is or was at least a professor at University of Missouri. Okay or no excuse me. Missouri State University are. You wrote a book about this case. Ghost and I read an article that he wrote about this as well. I wanted to quote from this real quick. Like talk about the writing of one. Kansas City journalists who went into town basically sat out reports that were picked up by papers all across the nation. I've ever is a quote now from Brooks Blevins on November Twenty Eighth Nineteen Twenty Nine the Journal Post Banner Headline set the tone for the weeks to follow quote ozark murder reveals system. Peon each baron said to be back brutal. Crime UNQUOTE SECREST WENT. On to spin a tale of futile oppression and privilege and is an Ozark land of illiteracy violence places inhabitants quote knowledge of Christmas is almost as limited as their idea. What thanksgiving is intended to convey on quote in an isolated hamlet called Saint James Kabbalah? Baronial families ruled with quote the Hickory stick in the Squirrel rifle. Unquote I mean. That's that's pretty heinous charges against the entire community the entire county the entire state. I mean you know and this was picked up again reprinted in papers all around America. I mean that's one way to frame it but I think you know you're you're laying bare a pretty a pretty terrible bias. These are hard working. Farmers who are people are more airpor- and they don't have the best education they probably are doing some mean moon shining. But they're trying to get by. Yeah Yeah you could easily just flipped at one hundred and eighty degrees talking about the same people doing the same things now. Also salt of the Earth hard working agricultural Americans. It really is. I mean this is I. I don't know if You know in a sense. It's kind of comes down like basic human nature. Which is that. We all want to have somebody that we can look down are now. It's totally true right. Yeah we've all got up so you're living in the city and maybe you don't have the best job. You're not that rich yourself you live in a crappy neighborhood but there's somebody there's somebody you know just worse you. Are Somebody up in the mountains playing a French heart. Yeah so here's a question for you. Okay deliverance have been written in with the movie. Deliverance had been made. Yeah if this had not taken place you know like like I was saying earlier I you know. What did I Yeah other than Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. What did I know about Arkansas? Yeah artist Georgia actually does built up and Actually Hillary. Hillary is not even shroff to Arkansas Chicago Illinois. Yeah no she's not an Arkansas Person. She didn't like Arkansas very much fairly. Not and so yeah. So prior to Bill Clinton. What is a young man? What the heck did I even know about what went on in Arkansas one thing? Deliverance deliverance was the one. That's gotta the impression of an and and so people like you and me we. That's what we know about. These people is deliverance. More people back in the year. Nineteen twenty nine. The one thing they do about these people was the Arkansas goes. And all these depraved morons. They're merger freightways has the story of like you know you can picture that sort of archetype of like a country kangaroo court. You know you're on trial for murder of Connie Franklin who said it really doesn't pay them in a good lie it's it is. Yeah it yeah. It's just strange all the way around. I I can't blame. These people be embarrassed a little bit. Yeah no it's ever be embarrassed about that because when you think about it I mean there's dumb ass stories out there in human history all over this all over the world you know. They're not that special. You thought I had Joe. I was reading about this thing about you. Deliverance in Arkansas and stuff is you know how many people are in the exact reverse thing right so like you're from somewhere in Oregon now from some farming community in eastern Oregon for that Boardman. Let's say and You meet somebody from out of state. And what are they now? Portland Lia Lee assume. You're like a hipster with a handlebar moustache top hat. And you're like no. I work on a watermelon farmer on the I work at the the poor or I'm numb down there doing wheat or something meat and potatoes. Yeah people will people like you know that you know. I'm from Portland. I live in Portland. People seem that I'm on board with all the General Reno Portland eagerness and I ride a bike and I'm a history now. Actually actually I'm not Not exactly stereotypical and neither are most people which I mean. Yeah so one. Stereotypes are generally like totally inaccurate off. But then also a story whether it's a true story or whether it's you know it's a narrative of some kind can can paint people with a with a brush. That's not always fair to them. That's not always out story. It's not fair. These people had then they have had since they've had very little in the way of a voice. Yeah counteract this whole thing has been just no end of people you know writing stories about them and making fun of them. Bright as if one of these people want to write a book making fun of New Yorkers. Well who would probably shouldn't who would read it so you know it's been one sided fight. Yeah yeah no no. It's not bad which I think is bad because there could be a city with a cool name. Like Red Stripe Alvin Red. Stripe had to go away and that sad and back in Stone County Arkansas. The legend of the Arkansas Ghost lives on even if none of the rest of us have heard about it. While you've heard about it now and that's another story another week so We will see you next time. Please stay tuned. We've a few important facts to tell you otherwise. We'll see next week all right. Thanks a lot been shocking detail. I'm shocked I'm shocked. If you'd like to get a hold of us you can send us an email at shocking details. Podcast at gmail.com. You can also check out our website. That's DUB DUB DUB the shocking details DOT COM. We're on twitter. That would be at shocking details. And of course. We're also on facebook go to facebook dot com slash groups slash shocking details. Podcast John next week too.