Chapter 3: A Picture & A Search Warrant


Simplisafe home security is getting commercial grade enterprise level security but for your own home think about the security fortune five hundred companies as us. They need to know police will be on scene immediately. This is exactly the kind of security you get with simplisafe. If there's a break in the US real video evidence to give police eyewitness accounts of the crime go to simplisafe dot com slash d t h today for a sixty day risk free trial and free shipping. If you want to see the people in places we're talking about in the story learn more about the investigation including how to submit tips or learn more about the town of Delphi. visit our website down the hill. PODCAST DOT COM. You said the last time we spoke to you that for you the woods will never be the same. I still feel that way even when I'm at home in my own woods yeah I think a lot of people feel that way. There's been a lot oughta violation here from the freedom and sanctity of a real place to the perception of safety and security. You won't bet most parents in this area. We can drop their kids off anymore for Shane. Lucia it's a beautiful area right now. This the whole community is really spectacular. Place retirement. Come through this you know and this is a very trail us. This is very this is a very trail and that was hard to get past. It's hard to get beyond that. You know Bush's trees talk if they if these trees could talk or stone or whatever it might be because they know exactly. Who did this everything we know about? What happened to Abby Williamson Libby? Chairman in those woods is a series of disconnected moments the in between each moments a blank space over the past three years State Police Superintendent Doug Carter like all of us has been trying to fill in those spaces. That's where the answers and now we're about to see some of those moments for the first time mm-hmm police are also examining this snapchat photo. It was taken just before both girls disappeared the announcement that the girls have been found not to a good end. We are investigating this as a trying. Seen we suspect foul play law enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iphone. They say it was right before she was murdered. Two we have thirty. We have a still photograph. We have sound. This person could be half the white males and Carroll County to the killer who may be in this room. We likely have interviewed you. We know that this is about power not here and you want to know what we know in one day you will this. This is down the hill the Delphi murders and we're back accurate the CNN center in Atlanta in our production room. I'm Barbara McDonnell and I'm Andrew. Aydin we WANNA thank you for coming along on this journey with us and and we're not trying to solve this case what we wanna do is make sense of it and part of that is understanding. What do we know right now? What we now is that two girls Abigail Williams and liberty German thirteen or fourteen years old had been murdered? We know that they were on a bridge moments before disappearing hiring and that their bodies were found some distance away along a creek and it's been described as a particularly gruesome crime scene and that triggered a massive response from law enforcement from the gecko including the FBI and coupled with. That is the things that we don't know which is pretty hefty amount of that at this point the first thing being how are these. Two girls killed the senior gruesome. What was it that triggered such a massive law enforcement response? I I mean we're talking about multiple jurisdictions multiple agencies state federal local everything and then. Finally we don't know the level of fear. This community humidity should have was the serial killer that will strike again. Was this a one off. Isolated incident isolated it crime. We don't know the level of concern that local should have all of that kind of funneled into the three big questions. We have. which are who did this? What the hell happened out there? And how hasn't this been solved and as we get back into our story. Law Enforcement Horseman is beginning to process the first bits of evidence and they are still at the crime scene. They are also beginning to fan out all all over the area to talk to people and to begin figuring out what happened like you said this is the first time law enforcement is able to really wrap their hands around and tangible evidence stuff things that will give them some insight on what in the world happened Art One to seven PM. I've noticed more and more the people who are walking the trails. You know. They're not walking alone. They're looking over their shoulders there. There you know that that innocence was taken from US Sir You should know the day. Okay after is an important benchmark in this case. It's where for the first time we see actual evidence. There are two snapchat photo circulating articulating. One of them shows Abbey on the bridge shortly before she went missing and before we get to the photos. There are a couple of things about the MON on hybrids. So you need to know. It's more than a century old and it stretches more than eight hundred feet long and Deer Creek is seventy feet below. It hasn't been used by train since the nineteen eighties. So the railroad ties are in pretty rough shape. There are large gaps in between. It's a tough walk and I can tell you from experience. It is not doc for those with a fear of heights in the snapchat picture of Abbey from February thirteenth. She's looking down as anyone who walks this bridge does and should in her hands appear to be in her pockets. She's wearing blue jeans. A Red t shirt with a gray hoodie and sneakers her hair is in a messy bun. She's already already crossed the portion of the bridge going over the creek and the photo appears to have been taken from one of the small platforms that extend from the side of the bridge. wjr Here's Erica Gibson. Again Abbey was Happy you can't really see it like she's trying to get like across the bridge in era little terrified looking down now. She's like you can tell that they would have gone there and stuff unless they wanted to. I don't know if he's ever been on the bridge before But it could have been abused first time. She gets a little scared sometimes so when she's well she probably wouldn't have walked across the bridge so at that point. She was probably scared but I I mean. She was probably excited after she got off herself. I'm guessing if she's never been on it and they were having fun. Maybe was taking photos like I said and Avenue is being a little model. The second snapchat photo is a black and white picture of just the bridge disappearing into the woods. There's no one in front one of her and we don't know what's happening behind her. Which of these two photos was taken? I we don't know that either but we do know the the timing here is significant. Now explain for me. I don't use snapchat. So when Libby took these two pictures she uploaded them which meant that all of her friends or whatever? Her privacy setting was all those people could see it. Yes everyone her privacy settings depending but then once they see it it's supposed to disappear. Is that right. I've twenty four hours. Okay unless you screen shot it unless you screen chart yes and then you can keep it on your device. Okay and does it automatically have the time stamp when libby out does it automatically to snapchat that if the date and time. It doesn't but If I'm thinking right now I screen shotted it when it said three hours and then I looked at the time I screen shot at. It was like I don't want to get this wrong but I forget what time but it was like eighty the math on that until when I gave my phone. They're like okay so you took the photo at this time and it said this many hours ago so my time say instead like to ten when I think it was like two seven so like they're just trying to see wherever he took it to try to get proximate time that it was posted. We talk about imagery in this case and it's important to the investigation. These two snapchat photos are the first clues that help establish a timeline and investigators need to get their hands on them. The FBI came to our school super nice people like I mean. They came a few times. The office people knew them really. Nice people I'd never met anybody the F. B. I. N.. From my experience with them they good people he called us and he was like listen. I got your name from either last student that you you may have the screen shy or that. You may be able to help us. He's a you don't have to say anything. You can walk out of here right now. But that wasn't what I'm here for. I'm not here to not give them what I know. The FBI is continuing to interview. Students and authorities authorities are getting ready to talk to the media. It's the first press conference since yesterday's announcement that the bodies were found So we're back here at C. N. N. Center and everyone in Delphi wants to see and hear what law enforcement is GonNa say. You know as we mentioned before messing strategies important especially this period the case the town is looking for answers. They're looking for information. And so this is the news conference the first one where they're going to speak with some definitive information. Let's take this thing bit by bit. Here's Sergeant Kim Riley highly basically we have identified the bodies of the two females. That were found out yesterday. Or yes yesterday The bodies bodies are of have been positive of dinovite as Abigail Jay Williams thirteen of the Delphi area and Liberty Rose Lynn German fourteen of the the fire. The two girls were reported missing on Monday February thirteenth. The bodies were discovered about twelve fifteen on the fourteenth in the woods. Just east the town here by volunteers that helped in the search the children after they were reported missing to the Carroll County Sheriff's Department family has been notified. This is considered a double homicide an investigation. We're asking for anyone to come forward. Who has information that were either on the Delphi? His Trachea there on Monday especially there were near the Monin high bridge that they might have been seen seeing somebody out there. They may have taken pictures. Somebody might be in that photograph if they were out there doing that kind of stuff. We need that information. We would love to have pictures of that more to just clarify. What what we got going on out there so so? They know the bridges significant at this point. And they're asking for anybody who is out there and we've heard that there were people out there. It was a nice day. There were people out walking and they're asking for all those people to come forward and tell them what they know. Is there anybody else in the community. I'm sorry what was there anybody else in the community. I'll let you answer that. At this time. We do not believe so sir. Does that mean you have a person of interest in custody or we do not sir. Okay this is a little bizarre. You have two girls found dead in the woods and a murderer who is on the loose and understandably understandably so the first question from the media is should people be afraid and the sheriff's response is at this time. No Sir. It's it's. It's a kind of a puzzling response. Part of it I think is not wanting to alarm your community. I mean you don't want to say yes. Everybody should parent pat but at the same time by saying not at this time it is sort of A. What do we do with that? It's a little bit of damned if you do damned if you don't if you think about it it's a tough message to here. I wonder if maybe that might be said differently today if they had a chance to do it over but it is a fine line. Can you tell us the cause. The manner of death. That'd be autopsy. No we cannot do that at this time because of the investigation is still still in its baby step so to speak and we don't want to put that information out yet. Can you describe for us. The the scope of the investigation the resources to people what's going on with Carol. County Sheriff's department is lead investigation They've also they've asked us to help the Delphi. Police Department is assisting We have the FBI what's called RT team. Which is the evidence collection team that it is here have and they're also providing other resources? At this time we have not put all together. You know we've mentioned this a bit previously see but now we know from this news conference that the F. B. I.. is involved and Sergeant Kim Riley says in that news conference it's the evidence response team and and other resources right so obviously leads to the question is what are those other resources. What's the scope of the FBI's involvement because they don't get involved in every murderer right? This is also where I think it sort of begins that cups in this kind of get a reputation for being tight tight-lipped. They're not revealing a lot of information they can't at this point and that's something that's going to be sort of a theme throughout this investigation and so we got a lot of new information out of that news conference but as we're about to find out they are not quite done for the day Hey everyone it's Dan simply safe home. Security is the highest level of security. You can have with. 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Go Now Ambi sure you go to simplisafe dot com slash D T H so so that they know we sent you that simplisafe dot com slash d t h Part to a blurry picture and Barron Woods well and I think you know as more of the story came out and then you know the kind of learned where the picture came from. I don't think you you would find a classmate to say a bad word about abby our liberty they they were just great kids Liberty just one of the world to be kind and abby wanted everyone in the world to have things kappa gift at Christmas. We are following breaking news. Tonight out of Indiana. Someone has murdered two girls one just thirteen years old the other fourteen and in their search for information they are trying to locate anyone who was in the wooded area at the time time including a male subject seen on these photograph. They were just released minutes ago by the Indiana State Police. They say they would like to Ask this person what he might have seen. That's Gene Cassara. She's anchoring on H. L. N.. That night talking through what happened that day with her guests when and the photos are released the two photos in question are blurry they show a man walking on that same bridge around the same time as the girls. The Indiana State police said the photos quote appeared to depict a white male wearing blue jeans. A blue coat slash jacket and a Hoodie. Those are the broad strokes of the person in these photos beyond that you see a man with his hands in his pockets walking on the bridge looking down. He's framed by the kind of woods you see in winter bare branches dead trees. That was just one of the many things to talk doc about that night Christine Grillo. There was a press conference today and this is a small community. They're not used to this. They have called in the FBI to help with recovery. They are still processing the crime scene as we speak tonight. They haven't said if they've recovered the cell phones. How important is that? I think the cell phones are going to be very important. It's not too long before we learned. That is an understatement. As you see the snapchat photo that you put up there is a very telling photo it gives probably the last the person perhaps that saw them alive. The cell phones are going to give a lot of information there. Also not releasing certain information. They're probably taking this investigation very slowly and very he carefully. They're not releasing how girls died. Perhaps because they want to investigate further before saying something before tipping someone off so the cell phones are going to be very very important the information and the communication that might have been picked up on those cell phones right before their death. Christine Grillo is sitting in a New York. TV Studio Oh and she couldn't know this yet but she was absolutely right about that immediately after this picture was released everyone not involved in the investigation including TV. Legal analysts were asking the same questions and are starting to draw some conclusions. Listen at this picture again. That was just released. East of someone they say was walking along the trail. The Delphi trail. This is the modern high bridge possibly was a known own place first of all. I am shocked that there was a camera. I want to know where I wanNA know where that picture came from. And the thing about it that you were talking about genius this is broad daylight. Hi this is two o'clock in the afternoon and it's a small town in a small community and the benefits of living in the small town of the small community is someone there has yeah or if the person is not from there. We'll be able to see. Did anyone see him. Did you see some suspicious whether any cars are there cameras in the parking lot of the trail your hope if it's a state or government property that they have some semblance of surveillance that tracks who comes in and who goes out and I got to piece the puzzle together Christine. The bodies of these two young girls girls were not found actually on the trail. They were found off the trail actually on private property but close to a shoreline so kors couldn't get anywhere near where those bodies were found. So it could be that you're doing that so you're hoping no one does find them that there's more decomposition to the bodies less evidence found and I don't know what these murderers are thinking Christine when you when you look at the crime scene and they are continuing to process and the amount of evidence. Here's here's the cold hard fact. One of those two young girls most likely witnessed the murder of the second of her friend. Guess they're going to be able to find out a lot of information and you hope that there's going to be discretion attached to all of this that if that information is not going to lead them to a conviction of the murderer of these two girls girls that that is something that maybe they won't share and it won't be they won't say that it's clearly determined because that is a horrible thought it really is and they are. They should be afraid. You're right there is a killer on the loose. These are two young girls doing something that young girls do and somebody found them and killed them. as is a picture makes headlines in sparks more questions. The family is straddling two different emotions. Loss and optimism that the picture will start filling in some blanks. Here's how Libya's grandfather might patty sitting with his wife. Becky remember just sitting here. Both this is so such disbelief that this has happened so I don't know when they shared that information with this if it was before or if they just released that information out which was a picture of the we all refer to him now as bridge guy I I do recall. It seems like it was a person of interest that we WANNA talk to for Kerry Timmons. Liberty's mom it was just one more thing so there was suddenly all this speculation of is there a trail cam is there you know I think that was probably the biggest one there. There had been a trail came out there. So it's all caught on video and and then there are people wear whereas this trail cam and I'm just like we didn't know immediately. That had come from her phone but then I think they released within a few days after that that it had come from her phone but then then all the rumors started. We'll we'll do. They have her phone to they. Get it from my cloud. Where did this come from so that just it was all really crazy night and everything kind of happened and pretty quickly? I mean we were suddenly like planning a funeral planning of viewing and and it just grew it was. It was so big so when you look at the chronology of the story from in February two thousand seventeen to where we are now. It is littered with big moments and this is the biggest one to date. The picture is from video on her phone. And it's interesting because we know now that it's from video but at the time families the Media People Watch watch it like we didn't know that right they didn't say where I come from and people were wondering like was there a trail cam out. There is surveillance camera. Then we find out it's from Libya's he's phone she's called a hero for that. I remember when that photo came out. And they're saying this is just somebody we wanNA talk to and I remember being skeptical immediately immediately. That wait a minute. Is he just somebody you WanNa talk to or is he a little more than that. I remember Working Rachel and at the time and being in the control room I we were covering during this case and I turned to the producer to my left and I said look police are calling. This guy is suspect but I we all kind of know where this road is headed and this is also. Where are we learn a nickname for him? Because he is unnamed so people start calling him bridge guy which is sort of morphed into b g the initials. It's also where there begins. Laser focus on the bridge the dimensions geography which direction the Guy was coming from. Where on the bridge? That photo was taken. There is just a hiber focus and fascination and interest on the bridge itself there's a lot to dissect about that photo to. What does it actually show us? Our his hands in his pockets are his hands in his jacket. Let's see wearing exactly. Does he have something on his head. Is that a shirt tail. If the walls of this writer room could talk about the things we've speculated in that photo at least fifty five different things what they are what. They aren't what they could be what they can't be. I mean the speculation in the guessing of what's in that photo is literally endless. And you think when you hear that there's a photo of somebody party that you would be able to tell what they're wearing what they look like and in this photo you just can't and if you WanNa see these pictures you can go to our website which is down the hill podcast dot com. And we've got all of the materials there. See you can see everything yourself. There's a lot to look at it in the story three. So it's a great spot to find all of the visual elements maps photos. You know all of that stuff and when the photo was released everyone believed that someone must has to recognize this person. That was the early feeling since then that pictures been poured over. It's been analyzed and it's been picked apart by anyone and everyone with an interest in this case especially investigators here's ISP superintendent. Doug Carter as we've had a lot of work with the photograph and you can't make that better for the public. Can I ask when you look at that. Do you see a hat to DC hair. Do you see a hood do you know. Yeah I mean I I I do I do again a not a long time ago. I I don't look at the head anymore. Look everything else we know about this. I I am. We think what we feel about this person. We know what his body looks like. I Walk Talks While the people of Delphi wrap their heads around the photo of the man on the bridge. There's a wave of media on the way. Hey everyone. It's Dan over the last two chapters. We've taken a little time out to find some moments. Does that give us a sense of who abby libby were. And this time we're going to hear from Cynthia Rossi. You met her before earlier in our story. She and abby were a very close friends. So here's Cynthia with a memory of summertimes in Debbie. We would always spend our summers spy her pool and we just loved eating watermelon while sitting on her porch under an umbrella by the pool in we would always take are watermelon slices and set them out on the railing of her porch in wait for all the butterflies to come in. She loved watching the butterflies utter flies. She has always loved butterflies. They were just such a huge part of her life so huge symbol in her life. And I'll just never forget a sitting there for way too much time just staring at butterflies. I just remember whenever we spend our summers together. We just felt it free from school in responsibility in. We just felt like we could spend quality time together in. We wouldn't have to worry about homework or any assignments and I think she disliked the fact that they were free and they just flew wherever they wanted they can do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted and I think she she just liked that about them. We'll have more memories of Abbey Libyan the the people Delphi and upcoming chapters for now though let's get back to the show Hearts three a little beehive. Nobody smiled. I mean nobody smiled for days It was just just this. It gives me goosebumps. Still think about it just it was sad it was A very slow pace It wasn't wasn't that people were suspicious of others. I think that came later. It was just this era of I. Don't I don't even want to be here. You know I don't know what to do with myself. And we were flooded with media and so if anything you saw a lot of media trucks and people interviewing lean and people just stopping in wanting to say hey. Do you WANNA say a few words on camera and you know locals just we were all still trying to process what in the world it happened Barbara. I think the story is stuck out. I think there's a couple of different elements. It's a small town. Bits considered a safe place and then something really terrible happen there in broad daylight and then it only got more more bizarre from there right. I mean if this happened up the road in Chicago or an Indianapolis it wouldn't necessarily be the lead on every single news channel and I think the other thing. Is You know the media in a town like this. The story that they were coming to cover it wasn't necessarily the sore there. We're going to get or that. They're going to because of the twists and turns that continue to take place. Exactly IT'S A. It's a bizarre story. We generally know how these things are going to end and in this one. Nobody could have anticipated where we are today in a lot of that at at this point is falling on the shoulders of one man in that sargent came Riley from the Indiana state police. When did this release? Start this case. Start to really get the media attention outside of this area. I'M GONNA say late late that night or early. The next morning we started to get believe it or not we had the BBC showed up out of New York. Had A couple of the reporters. Here I was getting phone on calls from other countries. It was just starting to snowball. I mean I've dealt with national news on other another things but not to the way this this was and it was just a whole new experience for me and it was time to call in some help for me and I had some great other. Just they came in and assisted me and backed me up where I would do. One thing that we'd be doing something else behind the scenes so it was. It was nice to know that I had that kind of help. NOPE For the first month or so it just it just continued and the interest just kept rolling and growing. Why do you think there's that interest? I think once we kind of got out of what happened and the information that we did put out there. I know at first. We didn't put a whole lot and it was. There's reasons three aces on the ground. When you're looking for the fourth one in a card game and you know that's kind of what we're trying to do is hold all the information and we could But yet yet still feed the media as much as we could and I know there's a fine line between those two and it was and there was a couple of times I probably said something I should have not aww said but it was one of those things that it was just. It was hard to hold back and I always conferred with my lead detectives Both in the sheriff's department harm and and our guys and with the FBI when we did do news conferences or when we did when they knew I was getting this information was getting ready to put it out. I always ran up by them before. For most of the time before there was time I could not do that but ninety percent of the time I tried to run everything by them before I talk to the media because I didn't want to say something that was going to jeopardize or hurt the investigation. So it was. It was a fine line on what we were doing. But we try to do the best we could with the information we could put out there while Kim Riley is managing the onslaught of media the appeal for tips and leads at yesterday's press conference is clearly being answered. Hundreds of of them have already come in and while that's happening sheriff. Tobe Lazenby is managing his team of investigators in a community dealing with a sudden influx of. Well everyone is that sudden swarming. If you will that occurred in our our community were down by law enforcement media the governor himself you know coming on board. It's just the over initial overwhelming feeling on every yet You know where we currently are now. The DELPHI city building thing. It's like watching a little beehive. Oh main with all these investigators in and out the door all the time with a file in their hand and going to follow end window. Whomever I remember seeing that first couple days around the you know once? We were organized round the clock. I mean there were million million nights I was up there till maybe one or two in the morning and still seeing guys and now the door all the time following in things those those things they were following up on would lead them to a property on the southwest side of Carroll County. Here's h anchor. Gene Cassara is again with Lindsay eaten. She's a reporter based out of Indianapolis. We do have information to report. The state police are serving a search warrant at a home and Delphi. This is in in response to information. That police received through tips and through interviews giving probable cause to search the home. No word on whether there have been any arrests at this hour we do want to begin tonight with Lindsay eaten she is a reporter for CBS. Four Fox fifty nine in Indianapolis a Lindsey. You are at the seeing tonight. Tell us what you have seen with executing of this search warrant at a home correct correct. We've been out here for about an hour Eight phillies did service search warrant at his home within the past hour some of the authorities have left there is still quite a large presence of authorities out here we have been detected if is bringing them boxes from this home. There's a field next door to this home. We called detectives with flashlights looking through the field. at this point the the latest we have heard. No arrests have been made troopers are stored Riley actually just pulled us about an hour ago. That they don't anticipate any arrest to be made aid. This was sort of following up on a tip that they received in the he said. This is just another piece of the puzzle. They're following up at each. And every Lindsey. I want some more detail here. How many boxes have you seen a forties takeout tonight? Have they taken anything. Other than boxes. Any carpeting any mattresses Taurus's anything we have not we have not we saw. Maybe just a couple like I said we got here around seven o'clock we saw maybe a couple of boxes taken from the home. I can tell you there. There's no crime tape around the house There are a few authorities still out here. They were searching field next door. We saw them going around the house. Ah In and out of the door and asked about it at this point minutes later on the same show Kim Riley called in from the scene of that search. Okay so you went to a judge and judge signed off on this warrant. Why did you select this home and Delphi through the investigation with the Church and the Interviews we've had had caused To going ballots. Unisearch all that when you look at the time line of this case there are multiple blips on that time. Line of really significant events in February sixteenth. Eighteenth at dusk the search of this home outside of town which we just heard Kim Riley talking about I'm trying to imagine Agean Delphi resident and hear that there is a swarm of law enforcement on how you must think that this is it. We're GONNA get this solved. This is the end of it and that's not what happened. They were there for several hours. We saw boxes coming out. The media had gathered. I mean it was a big spectacle spectacle on the edge town. You know this is two days after the murders and I'm sure there had to be some feeling amongst the folks in town because as we've mentioned this is a small town so law enforcement activity of that scale on a house outside of town within in our everyone in town knows that this is happening there has to be a feeling of optimism. And hope that there's going to be some new information new answers searchers. The most optimistic being. We're going to wrap this thing up and figure it out right. That's what it looks like. This is the first big police response. We're seeing other than them out at the scene and I'm sure a lot of people did feel that way but that's not what happened. And instead the prosecutor Robert Ives takes to facebook page that night and this is what he wrote according to the Lafayette Journal and Courier and he wrote. Please do not harass bother or accuse anyone. There are no charges pending against anyone as a result of the pending investigation. No one at the home search is suspected of committing any crime. MM please please leave these people alone and let the police work. And at the time that the newspaper quoted that facebook post they said it had already been shared like six hundred time. So you have this huge response. But then you have this message from the officials that Nothing came of that Tom but it still leaves a question. Because we heard Kim Riley say a just a moment ago he said we had probable cause also go into the house and do a search on it in order to get a search warrant. You have to have probable cause so with Bravo. 'cause we don't know so who knows about probable cause us attorney right so we have one bread Semedo Vich. If the last name sounds familiar it is also the last name of our producer. Dan Summits Ovacik the brothers. Brad thanks for joining us. He's been on the phone many days many a times for us as we've kind of picked his legal brain. How are you today man? I'm doing well. How are you guys doing doing? Well doing well. Thanks for joining us. We call Brett all the time when we have questions just the first time. We're doing it with my correct. 'cause we've talked a lot about the legal side of this case you know. Obviously there's a lot of kind of criminal investigation stuff but you know at some point. We're GONNA hit some sort of legal phase so we've talked about a lot about this but Brett. I'm curious can you Kinda give us. Some understanding of what a search warrant entails what is probable. Cause give it to us in Layman's terms for the people that don't deal with US everyday. Sure it won't Layman's terms. Probably caused means that the police have a a reasonable belief that there is evidence of a crime in a place to be searched That's boiling away down of course but ultimately to get a search warrant As a former prosecutor I can tell you this my from my own experiences. What would happen? Is that a police officer or detective would come into our office. They would have an affidavit That would be a sworn statement in support of not only their experience but also why they believe that this property needs to be searched. And what they're looking for and if it meant that probable cause standard that there is a good faith basis to believe that there's evidence that the crime on this property or place to be searched. Then that would go to the judge. The judge reviewed for accuracy sufficiency. And if there is enough probable cause the judge would sign off on that search worn. Then it's off to the races for the police specific. Do they need to be in that statement. Do they need to say we're looking for a gun or we're looking for bloody clothes. Do they need to be that specific they should be. CBS specific as they possibly can because a search warrant needs to be limited in scope. And by that I mean you can't say I'm GONNA the entire state of Indiana right. You have to say I'm searching this house this property for this reason. And here's what I'm looking for. But more importantly why am I looking for there. You can't just say I picked this Random House I wanNA search. It has to be supported by competent evidence. And by that I mean this the police have to say well we have a tip from someone. We saw a bloody pretty shoes from across the way. And there it is we want to go in and get it right. There has to be more than just a wild goose chase. It has to be supported by competent evidence. And if you you don't have that you're not going to have probable cause to grant that search and what is your experience with how high this bar is for judges when they're looking at these. The statements is at a really high bar. They have to prove that they have reason to believe. This evidence exists there or is it a low bar because this this is just a search warrant. Well it's a high burden that's placed on the judges and on the on the police. I should say and it should be because you're trying to have the police enter your private property to search for something. There's a relatively high burden that being said there's no defendant. That's arguing against why the police should not be able to go in there. The person who's the subject of the search doesn't have the ability to contest a search warrant at the outset so it's a one sided game in that regards but you still have to have enough to reach that that probably 'cause Threshold so Brent. You're saying that there's there's generally a high bar that has to be cleared in terms of probable cause there has to be a narrow scope of what you're looking for this search specifically on this property two days after these girls are murdered. Is it unusual to you that asserts. There's like this ended with nothing this soon after the crime yes generally speaking of course in my experience. If you're getting a search warrant that is really close to the crime then usually or should be supported by competent evidence. There's a reason that you're looking so quickly and you feel like it's necessary to get a search warrant within a couple of days for that property information in theory of crime is still fresh right all. That's happening really quickly. If you're getting a search warrant maybe a couple of years after crime occurred and you're trying to go back and piece things together. Well No. It's a little bit more common. The ERA GONNA strike out for lack of better term but when it's so close in time to the crime I yes I think it is surprising and usually usually pretty rare that you're just gonNA come up at the end. That's interesting real interesting bread cemetery. Thanks for joining US man. We really really appreciate it. Thank you for having me Sabar. I know that Robert is the prosecutor in Delphi. In Carroll County at the time said as you mentioned known at the home searched the suspected of committing any crime. That doesn't mean that law enforcement can't then revisit later right. But it's been three years. We've had a recent conversations with Kim Riley from the Indiana state police and he says bet search is not as significant to the investigation now as it seemed that night to them and that they went to that property they thought there could be somebody at that property. who was was the suspect and apparently the investigation revealed that wasn't the case and he also told us it's not as important of an asset set as it was that night so the property in that search warrant it would appear as it stands now? They've moved on but for the people of Delphi for property to be searched and combed over and picked through with the vigor that this police force was using using had to been some optimism. Thinking that they're going to be making an arrest but this is also part of what they're doing is they're are also trying to figure out where their attention is not needed. They're looking at people out there looking at evidence they're looking at all the different things that are coming their way and figuring out what matters letters to this investigation and what doesn't and it certainly looks like right now. That search is not a big part of this investigation and it should also be mentioned. You know we tried to get the paperwork related to that search warrant but as the ISP or any law enforcement agency will do in an ongoing going investigation that is their their justification for denying the request documents so we did did do our due diligence but unfortunately they were not stories and also because ruling out in a Lotta ways is just as important as ruling it in our next chapter. I have trouble saying those words. It's I eighty here. It would. He really remembers but that very very first time that that recording was played couldn't really understand what he was saying. It was all like computerized computerised sounding and then they were able to clean it up and suddenly it was D. T. H.. And it was like is he saying like why and I remember thinking. It doesn't even sound like urgent. He's not yelling he. He's so calm down. The Hill is written and produced by Dan San Mateo Vich Andrew Ayden and me Barbara McDonald old with original music and scoring by shoe. Sir Michael Dudley and Calen- chassis are associate producers. If you WANNA see the people places and things were talking about visit our website down the hill. PODCAST DOT COM Sherry. Selby's is H. L. N.. Senior production manager manager. Brian Bell is H. L. N.. Senior director of programming and Tyler Moody is the vice president of the Warner media. PODCAST network a special thanks to the people of Delphi and the members of law enforcement who are in charge of solving this crime and most important of all a big thank you to you. Of Of course we appreciate your listening. This podcast is brought to you by simply safe home. Security for a sixty day risk free trial we'll visit simplisafe dot com slash d t h get the best security system and most comprehensive protection for your home with the use of outdoor cameras doorbells in motion sensors. You'll see and be notified of anyone approaching your home with twenty four seven live surveillance by security professionals simply safe also so protect your home from fires water damage and carbon monoxide poisoning to no contracts and no tools are needed for installation. And it's only fifty cents per day. Go to simplisafe dot com slash D t h today for free shipping and a sixty day risk free trial at simplisafe dot Com Slash D._t.. H so they we sent you. 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