Q&A with WhiteSpace Founder Juliet Funt
Well if you find yourself well too much to do trying to keep all the plates spinning. You're going to love today's interview. I'm incredibly honored to talk to one of my good friends Juliet Font. Juliet is one of the most interesting thought. Leaders in the world of business and honestly a world-class speaker. She's been called a warrior against the reactive. Business and an expert in strategies to reduce unnecessary work and streamline processes her organization. You're going to want to dig into it. It's called white space at work. And she provides amazing consulting and training for organizations and individuals who want to improve workplace efficiency and create healthy rhythms for their workers. And a fun fact for those of you. That are old enough to remember the television. Show candid camera. Well she's the daughter of Alan funt. Who hosted the show Juliet? It's amazing to a chance to interview you today. Welcome to the show leadership podcast. Thank you so much fun to be here. Well aiming I loved our time with you we got to know each other. I guess there's been a couple years ago at the Global Leadership Summit and you're talk One of the high points of the summits in so thank you for your contribution. Thank you thank you. I'm sorry I wasn't there this year with you. Was it a blast? We missed you. This year really was we had A. We had a great time and We've got we've got to get you back again. Yes well twenty one if not before. That's when I'M SLADE. Well last year. What people may not know is that they invited you. How what what was it like? Two days before as a fill-in thirty six. I mean you wrote a new talk and and crushed it thanks. Let's do this. Let's start out and I'd like to hear a little bit about your personal journey. And how you conceived of the White Space Concept. Can you tell us how you came up with this idea? Yeah it had an interesting mixture of origins. There was a little business and a little personal spiritual saw kind of give you all three recipe ingredients and tell you how they kind of blended together so the business context was that I was coaching a lot of executives who are busy and overloaded during this time which was about twelve thirteen years ago when really the white space term was coined and we would constantly talk about literally the white spaces on their day runner or their planner at the time because it was the white the presence of that white that actually became a precursor to the most efficient effective in creative days in their week and so that was kind of recipe ingredient. Number one was literally looking for white. On People's calendars another ingredient was kind of a spiritual part of my life when I getting a little bit more involved in my Judaic roots which had been very very secular when I was a child and I was keeping up fairly observant where I started reading authors. Who were talking about Saturday? And the Sabbath has being this castle and time and it was this period of the week where there was this unscheduled open beautiful fluid time. That had no assignment and that experience that visceral experience of having the sabbath or the. Shabas BE OFF. Duty became the first visceral component of white space. And then everything kind of came together. When I became a mom and I had these three boys none of whom ever slept ever and so I would lay with my children every single night while he would fall asleep and I had this forced what I would later. Come to understand was white space time when I be trapped in a dark bedroom doing nothing but holding. Somebody's hand and waiting for them to fall asleep. And suddenly I noticed that unlike any other experience that I'd had that my brain was lit with creative ideas and business solutions and introspection and strategy and I would dash out of that room every night looking for a pencil because the forced experience of having open time had unlocked. Something in me that I hadn't experienced before and so these different elements started coming together to build the idea that there needed to be a missing ingredient. Reinserted back into work into life. Which was this white space time which we define as a strategic pause taken between activities so it is any moment of time that has no assignment that can then be utilized for strategy or creativity or recuperation or introspection or all of the thoughtful activities. That we don't have time to do because we're busy deleting away in our inbox or rushing from task to task. So I love the phrase strategic pause between activities and I am like very personally excited about this interview because I just recently. Juliet hired and started working with a performance psychologist to kind of increase by productivity. Because my responsibilities have been kind of increasing at a rapid pace even faster than Faster than my ability to grow into it. So interestingly enough one of the very first place he started was recognizing. I didn't have much recovery time and so instead of trying to cram more in he's actually trying to create more space. Where there's where. I'm not doing things that will help me to be more productive. So sounds like you're part of it absolutely and any physical analogy probably plays well with you but any Olympia knows. The critical element of recovery is part of training or muscular building or improving skills in any sport and so they build in recovery time. But we don't tend to do that in work or with our minds or in our own stamina outside of the realm of prepping for the Olympics. But it's exactly the same and and I agree completely with your coach. Yes and the the reflection time matters and I wanted to look at the Y. This problem first and then kind of get into the how but I think probably everyone listening knows what it feels like to be overloaded with too much going on in our organizations. I WanNa Start Juliet with talking about why. This is such a big problem. Why do you think so? Many people feel helpless about overcoming. The business there's so many different reasons I just. My brain froze up with seven things. I wanted to say at the same time. But the so first of all people tend to have a personalization of the problem of business so deep down inside we all kind of feel like if we could just do something differently on an individual basis that we wouldn't feel this crushing sense of constant business and overload so we tend to have self blame sort of us into this mentality where we think if we could just find the right podcast if we could just find the right filing system there must be something about our will our discipline or something about us that is really uniquely dragging down but when we studied the phenomenon of professional overload. We actually found that there were twenty seven different things that made people overloaded and very few of them had a sense of individual responsibility. They were things. Like the season of an industry or the economy or the quarterly stockholders shareholders call in public companies. Things that had completely nothing to do with an individual failing in the Olympics of productivity. But that's how people perceive it Most corporations get overloaded for a number of different reasons corporations or organizations complexity is very very seductive and so we get more and more and more complex and the more complex we get the more systems and processes and meetings and metrics become dependent part of our life and complexity is kind of drawing US along but there are many reasons social. Conformity plays a big part which we could unpack. If you like the intrusions of technology we could probably spend the entire time talking about so. It's a stew of forces that are weighted against us at against us as individuals who simply want to find a way of working that feels sane and humane and meaningful. So I do want to dive into some of those things that you brought up and get real really practical and specific. I really WANNA highlight. Why this is a problem you You've done a lot of research in found some kind of alarming statistics. This one is haunting to me so my organization Julia. We have about seven hundred and fifty thousand. This is what you said. The the key companies and organizations lose one million dollars wasted productivity for every fifty workers every single year that. That's going to keep tonight. Where'd you come up with this number? And what does this mean for our organization that number comes out of the surveys that we do with clients before we work with them and out of our unique qualification process so to our knowledge. We're the only company in the world. That actually quantifies unnecessary work and tells companies how much it's worth both in dollars and an opportunity cost so we get that from incredibly simple math math that your kids could do an even. My kids who are younger can do All tell you kind of how the process breaks down so if we were doing that for your seven hundred. We'd ask them some questions and we'd say things like of the meetings that you attend. How many hours do they take per day? And what percentage of them would you think of as unnecessary and we define unnecessary as meetings where there neither benefiting from nor contributing to being in the room. We ask them questions. Like how much C. C. E. Mail? How many interruptions per day? Which then implicate a recovery time per interruption to return to task and a couple of other categories which include sometimes overload related turnover intention as in if you were going to leave your current job where you use keywords like overload or stress or balancer workload and then we take all that self reporting time. How much time they're wasting. How much interruption recovery time? How much time on C. season? Fyi and other garbage. And then we simply attached salary data to that information to figure out how much time and how much money the value is of that waste and the number that we come back to as you said is about a million dollars annually for every fifty people in an organization. It's a shocking number. But what's so shocking? Is that the complacency and stagnancy in most organizations is so powerful that even after they know the number they find a way to trick themselves back into thinking that this is a manageable way to work and it is that resistance. That is the most fascinating thing to me about. All of this work a hope that those are listening. We'll we'll kind of let that sink and feel it that according to your research organizations to lose about a million dollars in wasted productivity for every fifty workers every single year and in my world we wouldn't just measured in money too but it'd be a loss of interacting wasting valuable resources. Yes opportunity costs so I really hope that motivates people we've this is this is a massive issue that we've got to solve. I feel it in our organization all the time. We work really really hard to guard against complicating IT systems over solving problems with too many rules and bureaucracy. A I WANNA Kinda get into your mind about some of the reasons behind our organizational inefficiencies. In fact I I like one of the concepts. You Talk About Juliet. You Call it. Hallucinated urgency can you? Can you tell us what is hallucinated urgency and how does this creep into our organization? It's one of my favorites. It's just the constant and pernicious Mirage. That every single thing is urgent. So when we get an email and it's bold. There's all of a sudden this ticking clock of how fast are we going to respond? And when we get a texter beeper a were or a bar that comes from our pockets. There's this Slovenian need to answer it right away and if our boss asks us for something without even knowing the timeframe we just assume that the cadence that they want is in we know respond immediately and it's absolutely a maddening way. To live and work it keeps US constantly just pumping with dopamine and adrenaline both of which addle our ability to be clear and focused. And we really see it as a constant problem. Of course the as I say. The Devil in our pockets is a big part of that the technology the ability to be connected all the time. So now our hallucinated. Urgency is not just urgent from eight to six or nine to five. We can have a sense of hallucinated urgency at nine thirty on a Thursday night when we have a moment of weakness and check email before bed or on Sunday. Where we're trying to have a day of peace so it follows US everywhere and most people have no way of parsing. What really is urgent. And what's not urgent? They don't get good cues from management. So they just have to default to do everything as fast as humanly possible or get in trouble so if someone's listening and they are management and they send a request to somebody most likely. They're the the team members going to feel like this has got to be done now. What would you say to that manager or the leader to communicate to to help the person put it in place priority and not let it break their rhythm or productivity with a sense of an urgent response? Cher so one of the techniques that I can't remember if we did this at G. L. s. The first year. I think we might have that. We use is called the codes. This is an email tactic but is very fun to share their codes that go in the outbound subject line of an email and so this is a way within the medium of email where I think. The worst of hallucinated urgency probably occurs for there to be some delineation between different levels so if N. Y. R. Q. Is in the subject line of an e mail that means. I need your response quick. That is an email where there actually is a sense of urgency. Ny Rt need your response. Today has a different level of urgency. It means that there is some time sensitivity but it can be any time in the course of the day. So that means you get an email that says ny rt at nine fifteen in the morning. Take your sweet time answered any time between now and the end of the day N. Y. R. nbd knee-jerk response next business. Day is a tactic that I probably use the most. Because I'm in crazy time zones. I work at weird hours because I love setting my own schedule and so- NBD means. I want your response at the beginning of the next Business Day. I'm the type of executive like a lot of people who does not like to save things as drafts. Because I forget about them. I feel like I'm in Indonesia right now. I want to send something to my team. They're going to get it at insane hours of the day and the night but it says. Nbd that they know if they happen to see it on an evening and weekend that I want them to stay off duty when they are off duty and so that's a cue that I'm sending my team. It's really important to to reinforce that when they have to get in a little bit of trouble when they break it because they're habitual desire to respond to you quickly is going to override the new habit of the codes but when you get an email from them on Saturday or an evening you have to kind of reinforce it and say no I actually that said NBD and there's a reason it's in there. I don't want you responding because I want you to use that recuperative time on the evening and weekends to bring me a better employee at nine o'clock the next day that's a good email and I have another one for if you want for not email. Okay I want to review that one real quick. I WANNA make sure people get. This is Super Valuable. So then why are means nature response like get on it quickly in? Y? Rt Need your response. Hugh is need your response. Quick and why are on its own is just? I need a response but most people don't use it because it has no timeframe and why are q quick queue for quick and why are T- today little bit slower than quick you have a whole Business Day Anwar? Nbd NEXT BUSINESS. Day is a good example of a delay technique that lets people have their off. Time I don't need your response until the next Business Day so it's Friday at seven thirty and you get. Nbd there is no expectation at all that you should touch that email until Monday. Morning was interesting as you even said if they did respond on a Saturday you might gently correct them as I know. I want you to have your white space time. I want you to have some recovery time and so do not respond this. That means. Don't respond until Monday morning. Yeah you have to inverse the thing. They think they're getting in trouble for so if they always think. They're getting in trouble for not responding not rewarding and. That's very very counterintuitive. I think to the way most of us work in this culture so I like that idea and you you had. He's with the idea of something. That's not email. Yes so if you're a there's a lot of different ways that bosses communicate priorities and when your inner verbal setting or in what we call three D. setting in the world of white space any meeting a face to face. The technique is called spotlighting. So few imagine you're looking at a bit cornfield. And there was a giant fifties kind of a floodlight that came on with a big chunk and there was one beam of light that lit up a piece of the corn. You'd know exactly where to look. And that's what we want teams doing spotlighting means if I rattle off thirty five things that I'd like my assistant. Jamie to do in the course of the week. I'm always gonNA end that download with a moment of spotlighting by saying these are the three things in really really clear and over way that I need you calling either. Most time sensitive or highest priority in terms of quality. And I'll do that in a meeting. I'll do that by the phone sometimes. I'll do it in a word document where I'll just use. A physical highlight to say. Make sure that these are your priorities because again. That sense of hallucinated urgency means that people instinctively feel like everything should receive equal attention prioritization. But that's not how we think as leaders when we say pick up my dry cleaning and prepare a proposal for a giant client might rattle those things off in a list but we certainly don't have the the same waiting in our own minds. We fail to communicate it down so that image of the giant could chunk movie spotlight. A we'll help you see what your teams need. They need unbelievably clear direction. On where you want. There is super helpful super helpful. Another thing you talk about Juliet in organizational inefficiencies. You you talk about something. You call tolerated misery. Why do we tolerate these problems in wire we complacent in our misery that that actually that term came out of a conversation at G. L. S. with? Tom devries where we were talking about. Just the Human Si- You know we're we're business consultants and trainers and we help. Companies change their mindset. So our job is to think about a business context for things quantification productivity efficiency but on the days that you visit teams and on the days that you get calls and e from clients. It's the human stories that affect you and that you remember. It's the woman who was so stressed that her grave the medication had to be tripled until we started working with them and then her stress reduced and she could actually go off some of her medication. It's people who never feel empowered to have a balanced life where they can go see a soccer game or get off a little bit early to do something that's joy or pleasure you know. It's it's people that you watch marching toward their own stress disability date and there is a huge amount of this what we call tolerated misery in most corporations and it was funny that around two thousand seven two thousand eight. There was this period where everybody was terrified of losing their jobs and so nobody would ever leave anywhere and that was completely understandable because of the economy but even as the shackles have been released. Kinda reminds me of when you tie obeyed. They say you tie a baby elephant to a stick. And then you just keep it there and you keep tying it every day and then it's five thousand pounds and it never leaves the stick. It's it's so interesting and poignant to me as a person who's been an entrepreneur since college to watch people tolerate such a difficult difficult environment so much of the time but that I have to say what we observe not in every company but a lot. I think you're right. It just kind of become used to the chains or limitations and so help us break out of that. You worked with a lot of different companies. Juliet and there's there's probably some kind of common Steps or ways that you alleviate the problems. What are some things that you suggest are are some of the biggest ways to move the needle and Breakthrough the log jams and bureaucracy. And actually get things done right. So it's a slightly different conversation if someone's a leader and they have autonomy and authority to change the situation and if they don't infect said giant fjord between those two conversations but let's start with assuming that somebody could actually do something about this. Let me tell you some of the ways that people perhaps do it wrong to lead us toward how they could do it right. I think maybe by process of elimination will get where we need to go. I just actually closed a computer five minutes before I called you and I got a deck from a major company that was saying. Can you please analyze this work that we're about to do in? Its simplification work on meetings. Which is a very important thing and what they're doing is doing. A giant internally built rather expensive complicated program to fix the problem of meetings and I was chatting with this executive and I said this is key are and they were asking us how it was different from the work that we do and I said. Oh this is. The difference is between buying a really nice couch and redecorating a house and one is systemic incomplete and one is a piece of it so the biggest thing that we notice corporations doing wrong is they choose one piece of the most aggressive pernicious part of their problem. Usually it's either emails or meetings and they go in surgically only to fix that isolated problem so they do an isolated intervention like no meeting Friday and they make posters all over the place for no meeting Friday and then the first month everybody adheres to it and the second month people start kind of whispering the corner saying. I know it's Friday but it really need to meet with you about this important project and then by the third month the only thing that's left of this wonderful thing that they've constructed is that people make fun of no meeting Friday whenever they're in a meeting on Friday and see the whole thing just breaks apart because there has to be we. We did that. Exact same thing here was that it was a Was To two hours on Wednesday morning. I think it was nine to eleven. No means no talking. It was like quiet time and I think I was. It wasn't my idea someone else's idea. I think I was the first to start making fun of it and come in with like dance people after quiet time. So I'm guilty as charged. Okay keep Goin. Soya interrupted you know but everybody does. I'm sorry just thought it was on a roll but we call that an isolated intervention so this is kind of like if you took a beautiful plant and you planted on cement. There's no soil. There's no context. There's no nothing rich for the roots to grow into. It's just a little thing that you just stuck in there right in the middle of the problem and of course it dies the the contrast to that would be too I talk about mindset culture philosophy conformity our relationship with time most executives. Don't have the patience to think through the psychology that leads their teams to this problem. They just want a quick fix either. GimMe some new rules for outlook or Gimme no meeting Friday and get me out the door because I can get my brain around that but but behavior change is really the solution here and that takes time so I I think the thing I wanted to highlight. What you're saying here is is crazy. Important is a Lotta Times. I think in our organizations we kind of want other people to think for us. So here's the rule to follow and I wanted to highlight. What you're saying is because I think that this we're not trying to get people to do what they're told. We're trying to get them to think and understand the culture so we all every person in our organization has to think efficiency we all have to think productivity we we have to think. How do I request impact others? How To our if we make a mistake. And We created a rule. How does that rule or policy slow things down and so love if you could talk just a little bit more about the mindset? If if you're coming in to coach me or someone else and we're going to try to help shift the mindset in our organization. You're not just doing what you're told you. Not just a part kind of going along with what has been happening. But you're going to help create a new culture of efficiency. Wh what would you say to that leader to help lead toward a different way of thinking? I would say first of all. Congratulations for being a leader. Who's a you know? Eight percent of companies are doing something about the problem about eighty percent of companies. Have this problem so the first thing I'd say is thank God for you and congratulations but there are a lot of different components that are necessary for this work to work and I think sometimes that leader that you're describing may not understand what they need to be so these leaders that you're describing and I know a lot of them the first thing they do is they just try to begin talking about it. They in their town halls in their one on ones. If they have a plane ride next to one of their direct reports they start talking about. We should be more efficient. We should do less stuff we should think about cutting we and they think that this dialogue approach is going to teach their people enough to fortify them in the path towards simplification but dialogue is really not enough. There has to be a framework that leads people through a very specific path. What are the behavioral changes? I need to make. What are the ways that I need to think differently? How can I learn those next to my neighbor? So that Ted and Fred and Mary and sue all are operating on the same framework can amplify each other success. It's actually not an incredibly simple thing to attack. So the the first mindset that we teach that we believe that everybody has to start with what we call a reductive mindset and we mean reductive in the mathematical sense when you develop a reductive mindset you decide that you will make a habit of cutting and surrendering and renouncing and simplifying and deleting in skipping and omitting everywhere you go so you become a person who has a lens in front of them and everywhere. You look your to do list. You're meeting calendar your inbox. Your goals your projects. You're asking yourself questions on. What can you let go of? What deserves your attention. Where can perfectionism be curbed? Where you indulging an information too much and it's becoming overload and you're constantly questioning and that one lens that reductive mindset if it were shared among an entire team and then given permission by a leader who was modeling it above them can begin to make some significant changes. So that's that's a principle that we've been working on here. The the mindset is brilliant. I love the list. I wish I could repeat it when you said what. Can you say it again or does it? Just come out naturally. It's I say it a lot of different ways but a reductive mindset means that I am willing to renounce let go eliminate surrender. Delegate automates skip delete and just plain kill projects. And to do's in my work life and life is getting so full and there's always going to be the stream coming in coming in coming in that we just have to simply have to have a parallel muscle on the other side. That is letting go letting go letting go letting go. And it's not how corporations think of the corporation mindset is additive we add initiative and tasks we ask developmental programs. We add we add we add. It's just a completely different way of thinking you said earlier. Complexity seductive was. I thought it was a strong sang at the So we're going to make this change one of the things that you teach. Juliet is that leaders. Need to go I can. Can you tell us why is this? So important for the leader to adopt a reductive mindset and a model for their teams I. It's not only important that they adopt it. It's really important that it's authentic because they'll smell it if you're talking about it out of one side of your mouth and then sending you know four. Am emails out of the other side of your mouth. So they they do understand that. There's a risk to them by doing this unless they have leadership modeling. This kind of change is very permission based and it's not that way with every kind of teaching if I came in and I said I wanted to teach all of your team sales skills or negotiation skills or outlook procedures or anything. That was more safe. You wouldn't need a leader to do it over you because you know. It's great for me to learn negotiation. But if you're going to start saying not thing is you're gonNA start writing really brief emails. That really get to the point. You'RE GONNA start opting out of unnecessary meetings. You'RE GONNA to start questioning. Why are we doing fourteen projects at the same time? That's terrifying for people who piano aren't in a super senior executive position so they have to be looking up pill seeing a leader who is giving them the tacit wink to say. No really really. I want you to be doing this. It's okay and it's safe and that permission based framework is is absolutely non-negotiable in this kind of work we really never see at work in the grassroots and in fact I was just reading an HP article about simplification and they cited these six companies. That were doing all this exciting simplification work but five out of the six were driven directly from the CEO and one was the CFO so they didn't come in with any stories of you know. Ted Started Grassroots Movement for simplification. It was all top down. I think there's almost no way it would succeed unless it is from the top down a really want our leaders to hear this that that you set the tone and I like Julia said it's got to be authentic so some of the things I hope you covering the book and I want to ask you to talk about these principles rapid fire and I've got four four or five things down. So can you tell us what is to DIV versus three D. COMMUNICATION? Titi versus three D is a way of considering which medium you used for. Which type of Communication? So there's format and then there's content so a two. D format or a to d medium is something that is two dimensional email texting. Im Chat a three. D format is something that is three dimensional a meeting the phone face to face time when we can hear people and maybe see them what happens ineffectively as when you cross the wrong content with the wrong medium because there's also two different kinds of content. Tutti content is simple. Yes no factor of and information this. Can I have the deck? Will you meet me at four? What's the address is very very simple. Three has nuance and complexity and emotion. And sometimes it can have conflict. And so where? Are you getting in trouble as if you try to shove three? D content into a to D medium I e S. sputtering email thread. That has fifty three chapters to it. You're going nowhere and you're wasting time conversely you take two D. content like a simple calendar a report out and you put in a three D. medium like a meeting. Now you're wasting everybody's time as well so what you WanNa do is stick with the right content that matches the format Tutte Tutte and three D. and three D. where this becomes very powerful is where people start using this as colloquial language in a team. They'll start on an email thread. That's getting too long and they'll say I think this needs to be three d. And they'll cut it and they'll jump right off and so that's that's when you really start getting the juice out of the term super helpful. I love your practical tools. Let me ask you about three more. What is the Yellow List Helpless? My favorite so the yellow list is a simple document that will transform the amount of email that you have in your inbox. Here's what you do. You make a document either for every single person that you work with frequently or a master yellow list that separated by People's names when you have an impulse to send an email you pause and you say should this communication actually even be in an email. Should it be a phone call? Should be a text if it's really time sensitive. Or if it's not should it just be put into the repository of the Yellow List? And then you add things and add things and add things and then when they accumulate you ping that person and say hey. Can we have a short yellow list debrief and you go through the list verbally? You Save yourself all the beginning of those email threads that have all those email babies and generate more and more and more activity in your inbox and you can hold anything there. That's not time sensitive. The other thing that the yellow list does is. It makes you pause before you send the email and sometimes you realize that. The communication you're thinking of asking or sending is never even needs to be communicated in any medium at all. It was just an impulse that you forgot to check. So I'm feel Nelin right now especially your phrase email. Babies made me laugh. I'm thinking right now that there's three people that I worked with regularly and I sent impulse emails all the time he Dan we interact with regularly enough that if I took on a yellow list I could. I would probably accumulate four or five things you know on average a day. That aren't urgent. That could go onto a list. And then at one point of communication we cover all of them rather than what might turn into nineteen different emails going back and forth this breaking everybody's momentum so that's that's gold right there and I hope that people listening can can I think about that and maybe consider internalizing it to more. This is really really helpful Julia when you talk about. Sph meetings what is what does that mean. Sph Is a mantra that you say. Only inside your own head and it stands. I shouldn't be here. The instruction is with next time. You're sitting in a meeting and you notice that your neither participating or contributing or benefiting you say inside your head SB H. And the reason that you're saying this to yourself is to increase the healthy discomfort. That will eventually lead you to do something about the fact that you're sitting in the wrong seat at the wrong time very very scary for people to begin conversation about. I don't think I should have been in this meeting. Or maybe can I opt out next time so that SPH instruction you just keep sph. Shouldn't be here shouldn't be here. Shouldn't be here shouldn't be here and this just a point where there's just so much you can handle hearing yourself say at and knowing the absolute clear truth of it and it will probably prompt you to start having conversations that shift. You're meeting attendance. So if I'm the leader of an organization and I don't care about anything you're talking about an employee comes and says I shouldn't be here. I might be offended. I am I think the employee doesn't care but if I'm a leader that is trying to lead I and really trying to create a culture that values people's time and does everything possible to whatever wastes productivity and increase our value in team member comes and says. I shouldn't be in this meeting. I'm actually going to probably embrace that and say I'm glad you brought attention. Sph I like the way you say to yourself. It's not it's not an out loud instruction just. Don't think that leader it depends on how evolved they are in their own understanding of? What if that person that you trust presumably? You've they're still on your team so presumably that you trust them if they're coming in saying that my presence in this meeting is taking time away from something. That's tactically more relevant to the business. Then we would hope that you trust them and of course work is sometimes tedious. But there's a different kind of awareness that comes when you're sitting in a meeting where you're redundant or it's full of two D or it's a sputtering kind of a conversation that's just going in circles. There's a lot of different reasons why people feel disengaged in meetings when they reach for their digital technology. That's when they mute that instructive boredom so abstaining from the multitasking will also force you into a state of Sph. Because you take away the candy that distracts you from how board you are then. You'll really feel so Julia. I could do this all day long. Taking those like crazy I want to ask you about one more and that I wanNA give you a chance to talk about what you can offer our listeners and talk really specifically about how they can benefit from what you do. One of the things you talk about is the six-week delusion. Can you tell us what that is? Yes this is one of my favorite mental tricks that that gets played on us and it happened to me just the other day I was asked to do a podcast as I'm sure you are asked to do many and not all of them are my dear friend. Craig who I know and respect so much. You just don't know who these people are. And so you trying to figure out if you should say yes or no and I said I said well you know what right now. I'm pretty busy but I think. In December December looks pretty good or late. November looks pretty good and at whatever time period I said it was about six to eight weeks in the future and this is what we call. The six-week delusion is when I get to November or December that time period in my life will be absolutely guaranteed to be just as busy as the present but at the moment my calendar is clear and so I have this tricky hallucination that leads me to believe that pushing that acceptance a little further in the future. We'll have it occur at a time when I'm less busy but that's never the case because when you arrive in the future it feels exactly the president and we do this six to eight weeks at a time pushing and pushing the things that we should maybe have the bravery to simply say no to in the present diluted by this visceral sense of. Oh I'll have time for this later and then it never feels that way when the time comes around so we call that the six-week delusion something. I think we all deal. I I I would like even a twelve month delusion or someone else or something a year from now like Oh. It's wide open. Let's do that and then it comes around and what was what was I thinking so. That's a good race for people to keep in front of their minds before you jump into giveaway. Can I address one thing that you were just talking about before you pivoted and we didn't get to lose? Please do it. Just you ask why people should change this incorporations and we almost started talking about why they should change it now instead of in six months or twelve months or two years and and that's just such an incredibly important part of the conversation because this topic is so easily kicked down the road. We'll fix it later. We'll fix it later. We'll fix it later. If a million for fifty annually is not motivation. Enough I will say that. One of the things about simplifying is that it. Then accelerates every other thing that you want so. Let's say that you are a leader. Who has seven things? They're trying to order. Which of the organizational changes that they're going to make. I would argue that liberating time. I then pours fuel on all the other six. And I think that that's a really really important orientation is saying. Oh yeah going to simplify things in two thousand and twenty three better than not simplifying them at all. But there's a very very specific reason. Why the bulldozer of simplification could should come first. Clear the ground and then upon that you build and it it. We almost started talking about that. I just wanted to slip it in there so important and and you know both both personally and organizationally. This is really the the biggest thing that I'm working on and at the top of my mind and I got here Juliette more because it a really got to the place of being overwhelmed and I think some people who are might hear what we're saying in find the motivation to go ahead and attack it but but I would just encourage you the best time to start. It is before you're overwhelmed and and take this incredibly seriously because is so much is at stake. And and we're so distracted and we're organizationally. We make things so complicated that it really does slow down our productivity and and as much as it robs us from what we could do opportunity wise incredibly frustrating to our team members when they know they're underperforming potential and in SB H. meetings say in their mind. I shouldn't shouldn't be here. And that helps that they're they feel undervalued rather than valued. I'd I'd love. I want to again your books. GonNa come out in twenty twenty one called white space. I'd love to talk a little bit about what you offer you. Offer white space training courses and they can find out about these white space at work dot com. You also want to offer some free resources. That will help us overcome some of the thieves of productivity. Can you tell us what what the resources and then? We'll try to figure out how to get these into the hands of people that want to improve. You and I were brainstorming. Some Fun giveaways thought this would be probably the most Germane to your audience so the thieves of productivity is a model within the world of white space. Remember I said you have to have frameworks. That people can kind of hang onto to understand how to move in this path together. The productivity are the four main drivers that fuel professional overload and they differ in their intensity person to person so we developed developmental assessment similar to a disk model where you can determine which of the four thieves of productivity may be most dominant and risky for you and what to do about it and how the other thieves fall underneath that dominant thief so we'd love to let any listener have the developmental assessment as a gift from today's podcast and to get that all you have to do is right to info at white space at work dot com and put in the subject line assessment. The most powerful way to receive. Your gift is to put your entire team through the assessment together and then debriefed so that you can understand which thieves are in the room and how many there are and how they parse out among your team members okay so just to be clear. They'll they'll email you and this is a valuable email that you do want to send in a is this a need response by curious now codes we just learned so info white space at work dot com right and then they'll put assessment in Milan and then you'll You'll send you everything else you need to do. Yeah and it. Just make sure that you you get your whole team to write in because you want this to be communal like all mindset shifts should be nobody should be left out there so we want a common vocabulary we wanNA common mindset and so. I really do encourage you to do this with your teams that I just WanNa say on a personal note Juliette. Thank you for what you do. Thank you for who you are. This mindset philosophy in emanates your whole family and I kind of get nerdy and excited about books every now and then but your your book. White space is on the top of the list of The one that that I can't wait to read in fact I'm GonNa beg you to let me endorse it just like get an early copy and read it ahead of time. So thank you for what you're doing and just encourage all of our listeners. This is a leader that can really help you grow your organization become even more efficient white space at work. Dot Com is the place and then as promised. We'll have Juliette back on in the future. We wish you the best. Thank you for taking time to To be with us today Juliet. Thanks so much and thank you. All for being a part of our our leadership community remember on the first Thursday of every month will come out with new content. That hopefully will help your organization become stronger and I just want to encourage you. You don't have to know it all. You don't have to be perfect in every way. Just show up. Be You be yourself because remember people would rather follow leader. Always real always right. Thank you for joining us at the Craig Rashawn leadership podcast if you WANNA go even deeper into this episode and get the leadership guide or show notes even go to Lifelock Dot Church. Slash leadership podcast. You can also sign up to have that information delivered straight to your inbox every month. In the meantime you can subscribe to this podcast rate and review it on Itunes and share with your friends on social media once again. Thank you for joining US Craig. Rachelle leadership podcast.