EP 68 - JORDAN JONAS and ZACH GREEN of ALONE
My Name is Gordon Jonasson Amir say. Like this is like the most exciting five seconds of. Twenty twenty. Low what's up? And Jay and this is sharp. I love it at podcast when we invited guests or guests to talk about something well, usually we talk about something underrated underappreciated in the world this time we talk about pretty popular TV show and one of the spoiler alert winners of this TV show. It's going to be a lot of spoilers for this to you show by the way going forward. So in the House, we've got Zach Green the creator of TV show alone. And Blue. God Jordan. Jonas. The man himself who won season six one of the most favored seasons of the show on television Yes the man, the myth. Welcome. Well, come Jordan. To you. Thank. The beer on the beard. Zach you to join but a little while how are you? How are you? Good doing great. How about yourself busy? Keeping busy and J I know you. Know you're you're talking earlier it's been cast gotta be at least ten years since we've we've caught up has it yeah I can't remember the last time I saw US Zach it was it was definitely like a decade ago. What show was it? Did you work on Jingles? I remember that. Ask. Mark. Burnett Days I. Think it might have been on the lot. Was It on the lot? Yeah. I I I couldn't remember. All those shows kind of blended in with each other. But Zach and I go way back. We used to all the way gingell all the way back to jingles. Jordan is the star of jingles. Out like mid mid episode, Jingles is a famous television show in a way because it was never aired. It was so bad. Directed it and Mark Burnett produced it and it was out it was a good. Friend of the show, Mark Burnett and it was a complete disaster and debacle and CBS decided after they had shot the entire season that they could not possibly ear this television show because would be an embarrassment. So I was partially responsible for that but that wasn't there Zach I know Zach from like the good old days of Mark Burnett from Rockstar was a show we did on the lot and we were I have very fond memories of the of that time and and Zach was a was always like one of the best. Within the genre of unscripted television you you come across a lot of a lot of, shall we say incompetent people You ended up meeting a lot of people and working with people on big big productions. Clean Morons, but Zach is the opposite of that like Zach was always like the a team. Pacific to. I. Shall remain nameless but they knew who they are. But they're listening they're listening and they're plotting my destruction but but no Zach was the Zach was like like a superstar producer and always like just so pleasant and just so talented and and was just somebody you loved being teamed up with because he he gets his here by the way. Is, right I'm telling you. The opposite Jordan of what you got to experience actually. Yeah Man. been really lightning. Where that guy go? This is. This is the child alone as the TV show that you created. That is the most popular TV show ever and like just sucked the life out of you. You all just to clarify just. One second to clarify. So I was an executive producer on it, but I didn't create it. So it came. down. Interviews over. We wanted to talk to the creator of. It was it was borne from the history channel and a group of people at pictures the production company I saying, how can we turn the genre on its on its ear? So is really a you know a group of people coming together and saying look here's here's the survival genre. Here's what's the biggest flaw in it in that. The authenticity of that idea that you're you are truly imperil when the participants say they're in peril. You know, I'm GonNa die if I don't eat diagonal cross this river. Well, there's a camera crew in a safety team and a production and those there's people promoting and pushing behind the scenes. So it was an idea it was born out of this idea of how do we remove that obstacle and and that and so it was it was I just WanNa be clear that it was not one a one man show by any stretch of the imagination there many. In my heart, you're the one. I am not convinced I don't know who these people are. We just let us live this lie solution that were under. Your the wizard of Oz, pulling all the strings. But but but no, I mean like like we'll get into it later but but but I, mean that's definitely a thing that I gravitate toward on the show is is the lack of unscripted shows you often As a viewer at least I can sense if you're that the producers of the network people are toying with the reality that's being captured and you can always feel that it's being produced cooks quote unquote but alone doesn't have that it's like pure first person cinema where where, where you you know it's like there's no artifice toying with what's going on and and I. think that's part of why the show is so good and and so so engaging. Let's ask Jordan, from the inside when the Times you most felt like you on the TV show like when you had to talk to the camera or like like what was that experience like a? Pretty. Good job of making it like what they say you know. It's pretty isolated even the MED checks and staff. Pretty. Brief and I kind of enjoyed them trying to like. China talk to the guys while they tried to be real serious and not interested. and. Win Was it the most like you're on TV show I guess when you actually watch it you know because you only see so much of your time you know and so you're like. Oh there you go. It's show but it's actually Pretty much pretty legit I don't know your experience out. There is totally. They did it really a job you wouldn't. Really. Think of it as a TV show from the time they dropped you off to the term ends. You say that and yet wall you're you're out there in the wilderness actually surviving for real like the stakes are as high as they could be. But but at the same time you're filming yourself. So you are kind of constantly. You're there to fill yourself. What is that like to alternate between like? Filming yourself for this television show that might still feel abstract like it doesn't exist while you're in the moment, but but you you still have to capture. All right. I mean you're definitely. Yeah. You're definitely like you know have to film it but I. GotTa say the Filming Aspect of it. I kind of enjoyed because I was Had Been in Siberia for. Myself where I never got to You know it was just me by myself and you have all these crazy experiences and you just know nobody's ever going to share in it and you're GonNa Forget about his again. But out, there is like really cool to be able to film it and know that you're GONNA be able to share it with your friends and loved ones and stuff. So I actually Kinda liked it but it did cost me that first Moose. Got To grab. My Arrows. If I don't. I don't know what you're doing here. You have to go watch. Some. Stakes in Comeback Hungry for more inside story and by the way like Jordan just you just drop the s word. Siberia. So just to make it clear I, am from. Siberia born and raised. Chemicals boss. triggerfish. Jimmy Morada candidate came in. I actually correctly no Jordan has. You. There you can't even say the candidate. Roy. Yeah. Yeah was nineteen when I left and I came to America by myself, it's the whole thing. Yeah but it is a thing of like when I heard about Siberia like Jordan? Like. Have to have to make sure like this. Like make sure what I want this guy to it rooting. I. Know that was cool. Though because I was like do it sounds like Siberia that you spend time in is what people think. Oh Siberia. Right, in kindergarten is like not this Iberia. A shitty town could be like in the middle of America pretty much. Dust real kind of like coal mining town but. Like I think one thing people don't understand about Siberia is how enormous it is like it's like the size of the United States and there's all different climates and areas I think we as Americans we hear Siberia. And we think Lake Frozen Tundra, which there's probably a lot of that of course. But but but there's also like the areas near Mongolia's forests lakes i. mean there's all kinds of terrain sle I wanNA say Shitty I, mean the best because I'm very, very intense about protecting in defending my homeland. All right so yes, bureau Jordan, did you go to Siberia since winning season, six? Oh, we actually plan to go this year but I guess got cancelled. So maybe next year. Pandemic from the. Amick and so. This year maybe next year though that's a you definitely want to go back it'd be really cool to take the kids over got. it's more expensive now with all the kids. We gotta do. Three kids read. The Pretty Wild Nice Nice now, I should we needed to take a second here because because we did this, we did it in a loan podcast with my friends wells like a like a couple of months ago. This is what started this whole thing. Why we're here now Because we wanted to do is show our friends that was obsessed with the show. We hadn't seen it, and so we watch didn't and became his. Wife as well, and and so we did a podcast and in the podcast I have to, I have to sit here and apologize because. It's A certain point in the pilot and the room here I I described Jordan your voice and I was I was trying to give you a compliment but it ended up sounding like an insult. But what I said was and I Apologize I, your voice sounded like dimwitted and. It was a choice of words because because. I say this to you and I I do. Apologize but the the point I was trying to make was that your voice can be disarming like when I first introduced as a character on the show you know. It's a very. Gentle kind voice and it almost almost has like. And again, I don't want to insult you but has like almost like a like an animated cartoon type of feel to like it's a voiceover going further into insulting. Human at all day you myself into a deeper hole but but. Go Far. PODCAST. We're really mad at each other but that that was what like when I was like. So in part of the reason so endeared. And connected to your character is that you were kind of disarming and and you know on the surface level, your expectations your first impressions might be that you're a certain your this kind of person when you're actually like the polar opposite, you're you're, of course a seemed like a very kind gentle person but the you're also a brilliant master of your craft and that was the point of what I was trying to say was the. One of my favorite parts of gas. into the podcast because I think that comment pulled in. I'm glad you have a sense of humor about it mean. I didn't think in my head immediately. You're going to listen to it later that night. Okay by the way Jordan, I just have to say like J. Refer to you at least twice just now as the key your character. On the show. Further like just dehumanizing you but I think right Zach and like reality shows like people when they the shows producers do refer to people as characters because you are sort of separating the person you're dealing with behind the scenes from what you're building this character into this person into as part of the bigger story. Can you elaborate more on that absolately? There's. We actually are really careful to use the participant in it will we're talking about alone because because it's very different than say I came up through survivor at marshburn right? noser contestants. and. This is also a competition series. There is a prize at the end and so. By by game show rules, they are content. You know the people that participate our contestants. But in the way we look at it as a participants there is much apart of it the production that producing the storytelling as we are because we've taken that you know that producer director out of it. You know they are now they are participating in the creation of the of the story, not just sub you know not being not just being subjects, but in the to get to your point there j. in the casting process, right we go through this vetting process leading up to you know picking the top ten people for the for that particular season and. It is. There's an x factor. You cannot put your finger on as many times as we've done this as many series is is cast as many series is produced. You know get you'll know at this point, we've done six, seven, eight seasons of alone. You Kit. Tell when someone you know has has that depth of will has the goods you can tell if someone's skilled, you can tell someone is a bold personality or you know his softspoken you can tell what type of. Personality traits they might have. Until they get out in the field until they're launched. You just you don't know how it's all GonNa come together mixed by we. There was no way to predict at and I've known Jordan. We'd gone through casting in you know testing and psychological testing and boot camp inch camera training. Many interviews many conversations. There's no. Predict trough it that he was going to be the guy, right you know Mo-. Nor nor any of the people it is really hard to tell. Is On that stupor. Hard to the. Did. Big Talk. I don't want speak for somebody WHO's not here. But like Niki, who was not season. She liked all those other episode podcast recorded seven Heidi the she was like right away on new Jordan is GONNA win she's like Guy He just had the you know I. Mean if you listen to her, she says you know and I believe her when she says with the I think that's more like because she actually met you in real life like when you're this will part of the reason I love alone is because it really as an audience member experiencing the show. You're going in blind and you're just being shown what what the editors and producers have cut together. It subverts your your expectations. Like when he first introduced characters, you know like everyone's kind of tough and you know certain people exemplify certain certain elements of classic type toughness. But but but as the show goes on, you see how how someone who who you might have put money on the beginning falls to pieces and doesn't have that psychological fortitude to take them through to the end and and that's what like immediately drawn the Jordan because because you just had this this sort of like inner peace. That as we're watching the show, we got to keep an eye on Jordan because he's he's. Experienced in that type of climate. Of, Arctic Circle type of climate that you haven't in Siberia, but then also the the. Well part of Siberia. So But then also that you have the sort of like like inner stability to take you to the finish line. I don't know like I just I just that's a part of the show that I really love is it turns turns our notions of survival qualities upside down. Don't you other dudes like maybe even the season seven the we saw that like I don't even know like I don't want to say who would like you like maybe they're like Jordan type, but they like fall apart because they can't like build something. That's true. You know what I mean it's like you still have to come with skills and personality like. I to me it comes down to. The psychological strength, physical strength skill set you know and I think that each one of those things carries a massive amount of weight in your ability to be successful out there and and I think they're all. The psychological pressures, I think are something that as as we've gone from seasons now, the latest as we've seen this we've studied it more and were we've got a staff psychologist and staff physicians vet are seeing things that have never been seen in in. Certainly in television but even in in studies, there are some prison studies on on a solitary confinement. There are survival stories where there's you know written recordings but nothing's been recorded in this way with people on their own as much as the folks, the participants of alone are on. So my question Jordan is if you think psychological. Pressures. It difficulties for were harder than the physical or would you say physical? Really intertwined like like I think if you. If you you know if you aren't successful on the physical realm, it's going to make the psychological aspect of it a lot harder but if you are. Physically successful. We've seen a lot of people who have success fishing or doing this or that still don't really hack it out there and so they're really so intertwined that I think it's It's hard to Parse. It would be kind of interesting to see how much you guys ever looked at all that and stuff but Yeah it's it's a different story like your goal when you go out in that situation is try not to. You know to try to minimize how much you're gonNA suffer by successfully employing your skills, and if you can do that, then you're the psychological aspect of it is relieved to some degree but Yeah, there's no escaping. You have to have some mental fortitude get there that long it's. Jordan. What was your longest solo trip prior to the show? Like what was the longest trip you had by yourself about five weeks And how long? How long have you been? Six last was. Devon. I got it I really fully expected it to be one twenty or one forty like I I remember that we. Told you a wife right you like minimum I'm going to be gone for like ninety days or something. Somebody was going to get the record figured. It was crazy. It was No, but Yeah. The psychological aspect of it it's it's super fascinating. It definitely gives you a lot of applicable lessons. The life you know don't stress too much about the future you know live in the moment you know be grateful for all those. There's a whole bunch of little lessons. But so when you do say though like the psychological I wonder like zoom in a little more like what do you mean it doesn't mean. The the aspect of the fact that you're on the competition show and you WANNA win or go abroad I mean there's a lot of a lot of stresses that are on your right 'cause you're for one you just have no idea how long it's GonNa. Go. So you you just think the worst kind of like our we're going to be out here six months in. Can I be away from the kids that long? psychological pressures of trying to not allow board I mean it's a crazy after I got the Mousse I thought. You know what it smart now to like chill out and conserve calories and I think I sat in my shelter for like two hours. Holy Crap. This is so. Just like the longest morning on my dime out there. Bish induce some you know like. Trying to maintain your not be super board you like it really that Brady on my season when he quit explained it well, like if you do you want to experience what I'm going through just draw a circle and stand in it for twenty four hours and see you know how you feel about that and and it is of is true if you if If you didn't stay active mentally and physically it would It'll. That's a big aspects interesting. It's it's a lot of times. If if the person is skill, the skills are there a lot of times? It's the boredom that kills you like what makes you like leave? This is interesting because I haven't thought of it. Really, hard. It's so easy to lose perspective on how you know in the end. Okay. It was seventy seven days but. If. You're counting each day by each second and second game eight, I can get so slow so long but. The projects that are hopefully productive or whatever then you can try to pass time faster but. That's an element that I think editorially Zach that you guys did a really good job addressing because it wasn't you I, it's hard to to show on screen. Like. Like the negative space like like all the time. Spent just waiting and sitting you know you get a sense of it and I don't know maybe Zach can can inform us on. What you did in post production to kind of kind of depicts that but by definitely got the sense that while like the days are stretching. Like a minute feels like an hour and if you if you have idle hands, it kind of slowly drives you insane right like. You lose your grip on reality thing that we've that we've found is that. For the first twenty to thirty days, every body is moving like crazy, right they got food water shelter, the basic tenets survival they have to get going. Right you know winter's coming they've got you gotta set up a shelter they've gotta make sure you know in your case, you had a massive lake, but you gotTa make sure you've got sufficient water source. Supply firewood supplies that you've you're finding A. Finding vegetation while that ables that you're finding a long-term food source. You're you're you're exploring your your Lan- you know that your area that you're that dropped it. But so for the first month you're going hard, you're getting all those things ready and then there comes a time where the shelters you need some tweaks maybe but it set you found if you've got trap sadder, you've got you know where you're fishing spot is you've got you know where your wild edibles are you were you got firewood for days. So those big projects start to slow down, and then all of a sudden we signed the participants are left with a lot more time on their hands and for anybody. That has time on their hands. You distract yourself. Right you've got a phone books, Yao, whatever you write you draw you go for a run you. You can distract yourself and have a conversation any which way none of us. Are Truly alone in this world. UNLESS, we make it. So and in this case, they've got nothing to turn to right except for the camera and so that's where I think the psychological pressures. Everybody's got a demon of some sort. And those demons start to come to the surface especially after that day thirty mark we've found. Yeah it's gotTa be fascinating from your guys perspective to see all that you know only get a fraction of it on the show but just watch the whole. Yeah. Whole thing. Go Out. You guys should put out. By the way. We've we definitely talk about it and I think there's so much fodder there and so to that end. People tap out for the true reasons Sony. Or do they crack in? Right, so I lose my fellow Rod really or you know. Even like that. Yeah. I thought a lot like I'm like I'm just done I just want to go see my kids and I'm like. Are You freaking out because you remembering all the childhood trauma that's haunting you at night. That's mostly I was what I was thinking. I think there's There's everything in between people actually lose their fair rod and I think some people hock in the woods. I you know I don't know but I also think that. If you can push pass those things the people that are able to go beyond those that timeframe the twenty, one days, thirty days, and I'd say it's every Tennessee days after that is a benchmark in that in that respect we've found and it is a fascinating look to your human psychology. Because it's it's fortitude its depths. These wells is the depth of willpower that people possess that are uncharted and you can have that you know an amazing depth of will and a an a good skill set or to mazing skillset in a lack of willpower and the person with the good skillset and more willpower is going to go further right if you can if you can suffer. Frankly and have a decent skillset you'll go fairly farms. Jordan spends a Lotta time in Russia he probably is prone to suffering and enjoying. Their chair I guess. How will you getting out of those like black holes that maybe you were experiencing we'll do what was it like thinking about your kids was the thinking about I'm probably going to win this. I mean I gotta say having gone to Russia and spent you know every time I went I would leave all my friends and family and you know and you just they ha- man you didn't actually usually feel I going to Russia I usually kind of forced myself do is I knew it'd be good in the end. It's like me Yoga class. Okay. Sounds similar. Yeah. I've been gone. I did it number five or so dimes where you're gone for a year and so it puts in perspective you're suffering and I remember really. You know in my mind on the mental aspects suffering at times in Russia where I just sit there and didn't know the language yet and you're just isolated man I wouldn't wish this on anybody but then you just have to stick it out for the whole year you know and then go home Weirdos man you have to like Gig. Great actually eleven but then you you go home and you any kind of gives you a perspective I. think that was helpful on alone because it was like okay. This might suck but it's only so much time and. On the same goes for Having, just a perspective on knowing history and knowing the type of suffering people have been through Russians are good people's. Turned and we know our history will love to talk about how much we've suffered. Put in perspective the and having that perspective healthy deal with that suffering a lot better that said when you're out there and it is really there's those boring times come like was talking about and you just don't know to do with yourself. You know you have to. Dig Deep and I'll try to. Do Different things that were helpful for that. But you want to do something like music stuff. Right? He was singing all Magog. Throat singing deal that was the best spar. My feet where I'm like I'm like freaking out I remembered that that was my. Mongolians. Thank God the. Siberian from cameras so he were go zero. Everybody loves a good Tuban throats senior talk that shit. Driving Away I'm like I'm going to put on some throw throat singing local. Things going Oh. So good. Sound yeah, because well around the PYRE. So Jordan. You mentioned that you did a five week solo that kind of your biggest solo trip you've ever had in the wilderness was that in Russia or Yeah, yeah, it was. It was house in some. You know awesome village in. Siberia. They they did fur-trapping my. Buddy and he took me out and gave me a topographical map and pointed to where the cabins were and just had me goes set all his traps for him or. You'd learning her by the way rationed misdemeanor. So it was for work I in a sense it was stranded or no yeah, exactly. Right living with them when you're living with them you just. Do what you can to be helpful just trying to be productive for co-pay. You brought the groceries or you going to five weeks traffic. I gotTa say leads it was funny because just on on the Russian now as like I'd been out there for five weeks I think is pretty cool. You know you kinda think you know not many people do that I was tough and then I met some sixteen year old kid and I was talking to him and he and he goes out for six months every year. With his dogs I was like man, how do you need being alone that long he's like. Dogs. I love that kid already. Where he's dogs. I mean that probably makes all the difference the having companionship even I could non human right I would assume. That that would help ease the psychological burden right And their supplied and stuff. So you know you and you have your daily goals and you're busy and it Kinda helps at pastime. Did you get sucked into the whole Russian SAGA LIKE Obviously, as you can imagine a long story, but it was initially I had heard A Guy Squirrel Ski. Jumper. You're welcome to the PODCAST. Nervous around. You. Know, you're a hunter. Jordan's. Pack leader. I know initially went over to help this. Guy, build an orphanage and and And now it's no big deal the first catalyst the why when over. But I just bought a ticket for a year when over there but. I WanNa live with an American which he was he'd lived in Russia's alive but he so he sent me to a Russian village I could live with people that spoke only Russian I kinda just lived with them. You know did their farmwork Blah Blah Blah you know. Cut Hey with aside and did all that kind of stuff for years I only meant four. Americans when I lived in Siberia and. It's not a lot. So I'm sure you were acquired a site for you. Know a related question here on the five weeks. Solo trip. This is for. Zach. Zach do you find I don't know how much you can actually disclose? But as far as other contestants go like. Like. Have you found that the people that had actual lengthy solo trips in the past do better on the show or is is Jordan kind of an anomaly that that has had a five week Solo because I? The reason I asked is because I notice a lot of times on on on on a loan. The participants will be a lot of them will be very good at their craft at like making traps and survival skills but they haven't actually gone a long amount of time by themselves, and that's kind of what separates the winners from the losers it seems so. Jordan's experience unique or is that common? It's An interesting question so to the there's a bit of a longer answer I guess. Many folks have come on and they've had solo experience. A lot of people even still have that. Experience with the got supplies or they've you know people know where they are. There's an end in sight they go with like a goal I'm going to be out here for thirty days or I'm going to be out here for for you know even even fifty days, but it's That psychological twist of knowing when you're going to be done and having the right they're set up for success the brought supplies with them they brought fire starter whatever it is. You're the difference. Here is your drop in you have. No idea when when you're going to be done, you have no idea of the landscape that you're going to what what you're getting dropped into. So it is very what I'll say it's very rare that anybody's come in and done something that mimics or have done. Something that mimics this experience the way it's set up. And and I think. The common thread here is that whether they're a weekend warrior. Ex Survival expert or their survival instructor. You know a Bush craft instructor which we have everybody on that game aura military eight you know survival expert or whatever. But everybody on that gamut. The common thread? Is They all want the experience? To test their skill, tests, their limits and do it away that. Ideally, there's no loss of life, right but it but push themselves right into the red zone and I think that's what alone has done. So well, what the you know we've done as as a group is reset this, set it up so that we create this bubble and it's a huge bubble named no idea where the where the boundaries of the bubble exist as participants. To allow them to to test their skills, test their willpower test, their merit test, the thing that they've spent decades studying. And in a way that that only they could do you know they're they're in their in their own world each each of the ten have vastly different experience because not everyone location is exactly the same as I remember Jordan Complaining Talking Shit about his location. Forget back I remember to everybody. was burned down right like there was looking explain that the the there was a there was a fire, the last season that had burned a lot of the vegetation. had been one previously like you know an win we were flying in on the helicopter I was looking at my land. Of course, you're trying to absorb as much as you can, and I was like, oh, man, my shorelines shallow and then look at an L. my gosh. All the trees are Brown you know it's just all been all the trees are dead and then they dropped me there and this is like what in the world because of course, it was kind of a similar environment Siberia's that was a plus but not like I would have chosen a place like that in Siberia to live because there's no berries because they've all been burned. So there's no grouse because. Oh on and so. Not. A lot of berries. There's not a lot of bear like I killed that Moose. ooh never saw bear in mind which is odd So there is all those things that made my like plan a B, and c just go right out the window and they dropped me off and then I was I was Kinda matter. Of all the places got me right before the winter you know in the Arctic and then put me in forest fire but you know you just have to adapt and and negative. Just to. Over it just did that happen get over it but you didn't scare anybody because you were so angry but like you're still staying nice personally, you can still tell. Like I am so angry. So pissed right now. I'm like I mean like nobody's scared is the same thing with Russia. How do you say that thing? Green Yeah over and you're like, I am so mad right now at this guy, I'm gonNA. I'm sensing like zero anger, but but it interesting saying that's what I'm saying that like Jordan Jordan's energy like like it just inspires confidence guys are watching this show and and you get put into these bad situations you dropped in this area that's burned down. There's no berries your even keeled enough to say, okay like like like you say playing ABC are out the window. Let's make A. New Plan and you know it just such a radical difference from people who because you're everyone's going to encounter some sort of drama or some sort of tragedy out there and the people that can they can absorb that not let it get them down and say, okay like like if I'm surviving I hear let's figure out a new plan for survival as opposed to dwelling on the negative. Like. They do a good since we're on the topic though I think the I was. Obviously upset about the spot but since the show you know like look into it more and stuff and I don't I think it's They're pretty. Even like they do a pretty good. This place has that resource that place has that resource and it's like They actually do a pretty good job of that and maybe an overall you look you might think overall that guy had a rougher spot or this or that but I think when it comes down to it, you guys do a pretty good job of at least you know in the Arctic I can speak for putting people where you have a chance you know what I'm saying like they. Were sound stage like you have. been built. It's like this is real. The the Wilderness. Where you go, there's going to be pluses and minuses and the beauty of the show and the concept is that. Is that like like Jordan get put in place that's not ideal and maybe as rougher than someone else's. Environment, and yet you come up victorious because you're able to your capacity for problem solving is through the roof. Puzzle and you Kinda unlock the key to whatever it ended that makes your. That will give you that. Ability to survive in your location, but it's you know. As best thing, do you think lock was a big part of you winning or not? Really you don't look at it like that. Yeah. Good question and it's hard to say like if people have talked about got lucky on the meuse or this or that but I mean, I'm sure I don't know how much of the footage Zach walk is but you see so much on the show but and you know in real life it's like well, you can say it's lucky but then you also like a built alarm systems and fences in like in tons of work at try to try to make it actually happened and I sat there and would just sit there and call Moose for hours and Without, without the alarm system, I probably would've never known that the Mousse was walking by you know. Slept through it and thought the next morning man there's no moose in my area. You know what I'm saying. So it's like you kind of. Yourself up. Yeah. You have to set yourself up for success. You got to improve. Improve Your odds of having success by that things you do. It doesn't there's no guarantees but so there's always some. Element of chance and it's just but you really can affect your. ODDS OF HAVING A. Platoon amateur like to me I'm watching season seven or even season six and I see other people who fail but I don't know it yet and they will. They're doing the right thing because I don't know any better died. They're doing the right thing because they're like talk about. Here's the thing there'd be like I'm not going to build a shelter like it'd be like a person I'm not going to build a shelter. I'm just GonNa live to shelter later limoges stick with other stuff and like later I find out like shelter is like pretty much number one with fire thing to take care of before you take care of the food but like as I'm watching it, I'm like totally buying into like they've got a great strategy so like for you though and for Zach like with professional, you can see that like Oh, this person's going the wrong way maybe like but for me I'm like they're all doing the right thing. Area to see from Zach perspective like what people do like the whole he gets pry pretty for the whole. How it all plays out and Estimate. It is start to see some patterns and I ultimately to kind of talking about the. Participants for a second. It is which Kinda threading a needle in that we need ten sites that have. Relatively. The same resources for everybody. So it's fair but you're right j not it's the wilderness you're not. You're not going to find ten identical sites. So, there's a balance and we have survival experts on staff that help us evaluate the sites and and you know I've gotten a point now that I'm pretty good at it myself. But I still you know we still have those folks that that coach us and make sure that if they say it's good than I. Trust that it's good. You know these are You know Dave holder for instance, shout out to. Probably. He's amazing. But. We also need them to be. Within, striking distance of our of our safety teams that we have out there. So that if there's an emergency, we can get to them that we have our boats can get in and out that we can get a helicopter in and out if need be for for rescue mission. So. There's. Close enough. So that we get to the but not close enough that they can see or hear any of our activities. So it's it is a bit of a a bit of a puzzle So and then when you turn the choosing who goes where we do a blind choice. Essentially. Picking A, you know a number out of a hat I mean sometimes we flip. Ten stones with a number on it you flip your stone and we always film it, and so Jordan picked his own site. I mean it could have been any number. Any one of those people we go Jordan next time complain think about it. But my point is I knew of course knew that there was a forest fire there and we knew that that was. Going to cause no some hurdles for people, but we also spent some time there to understand. That there were a lot of rabbits. Station Yeah. There were other opportunities, but it was up to the participant to land there and figure it out and rise to the occasion which a big reading gray at a good angle on appreciated raise. Pro. Because he if watching this go, he would be the guy think he got the worst spot or so if you just watch the show but he actually after the show, you know those guys took him out and showed him how many fish were office shoreline you know, and you could just catch all these fish and so then I heard him discussing later that like he did have a lot of fish but he's not he wasn't really a fisherman. He's a good hundred and and so you just you know made it hard to. Make the most out of his area because. His Area A, lot of fish and I. It's Just. Half you know being able to adapt I really appreciated his input on that. You know as I think you're right adaptive, but you just said and adaptability is the name of the game right I really thought I was going to be hunting bears out there. That was like my plan a and I never. I guess you're the bear man. I'll moose. Like You just have to. Just on the subject of luck like it can easily be misconstrued that it's luck but it's like what luck really is is a whole shitload of of hard work and perseverance, and then a little bit of timing you know like. There's luck. We're like the luck of the draw, right so the luck of the draws you got this this one area and maybe another like true element of luck is like, oh, there's like a there's an abandoned boat that was that was like buried in mud on you know that you're able to salvage like that. That's more luck. But like but you know what I think a lot of people misconstrue is luck is someone's really Hard. Earned like manifesting of reality like you say well, I have to manifest something positive out of its you create your own reality. You're right now that it's a good way to put it. It's like yeah, it's complicated. There are situations that are almost just blind luck. You know like add some funny ones in Siberia where Burgess killed a Moose right next to my. You Know My. My cabin and like went out and there is a whole Moose Land Sixteen they're offering. So. I used to laugh on the show I was like how funny would that be if that's how somebody one debts? Bear came killed you. Change. All the hard work right. So that was blind luck but I will say like in that situation on that show. It was a relatively lower percentage of just the amount of like you know you got to. You A lot of people I'm not sure Zach knows this better but like how much do I don't know how much people like The balance between how much people walk around and hunt and are active versus how much they tried to chill near they're not burn calories. You can't really tell on the show I. Know I was airing definitely on the side of being active and being out there and doing that helps you increase the odds. You haven't encountered just being out in the woods obviously and then. All the setting up and the you know the other stuff talked about. So and then of course, you have to have some degree of that. There is a animal that ever walked by, but I do think that. The Nice thing I liked about the Arctic. You know. I think for I don't know I imagine for most people their prime animals, but I don't know well, and and so to answer your question, the the amount of movement that a participant. You know get gets does is directly proportional to how successful they are in epicure food. So she got the more the more active they feel they can be right. There's the psychological thing like you know where people might start hoarding food seeking I'm going to save this rated, not eat it and then all the sudden you know you're doing yourself a detriment because you know your health is failing and yeah, you know yet you've got you've got food. So you were you were great. Yeah. You you were very successful with terrestrial. Creatures. And I think you're right that the the Arctic circle that location was probably our most active in terms of land. Yeah. Rewarded activity. Well, yes. It really did most most the other locations couvert island was more food mostly came from the see it mostly came from from the water. You seem pretty comfortable Jordan that net you that blew my mind and then you like just making the fish happen at the end. So I you know I mean you know we're talking about terrestrial man. Shaken show everything. But definitely, there were some fish that we're a blast to catch. Yeah. Enjoyed the. So big. Guy You know like. vibeke. Yeah. Yeah Yeah. It was exciting fishing for sure everything's exciting because you're so dependent on it. It's like I couldn't. I couldn't buy. Lamborghini. Get that excited as I did just. Out of the water. But I think like what for you was like okay like the peak for me is excitement when I get some, you know something's going to support my survival here and the bottom of my emotional journey on this show is boredom i. think for many people though like it was maybe the bottom was going to dark place. I was like boredom is like where's the worst place but there's a place places below boredom you know that people I think were falling. Hard play like if you had a lot of elegance in your closet and issues to deal with like bad relationships and stuff like that. I think it would be a bad place in a bad way to go about working your way through them, i. Just You know I recommend someone going on the show like try to. Resolve your issues. Out there, you know don't even out there 'cause it's. Yeah. Because you think about those things even I don't have a ton of skeletons in my closet but I have. People that I would think about like man I don't keep in touch with. This person or that person and you just think. Yeah a dark dark. person than you are. Word Blinds I'm sure. That's interesting that you say that the show like you shouldn't look at it as a form of therapy because I never really thought of it. Like you have to go in kind of fully self realized otherwise you're going to be confronted with your demons all alone there in your cabin on on game. And it's GonNa get to eat away thirty according to your exactly. As. Well as some people some people at hits earlier, that's for sure but I mean, it's so true. You you you. You don't know and I think Jordan you amongst us here can can tell us what it's like but I think that moment. That you're dropped and the participant is standing there alone for the very first time and you know it's been a whirlwind right. David traveling we've we've done this boot camp. There's always people around there constantly in groups are constantly being monitored. Boob there dropped the helicopter flies away the boat pulls out, and then there is dead silence and a truly alone, and I think for many of the participant participants at hits like a ton of bricks you know you tell us. If the such a surreal experience because not you're just dropped. And and it just hard to imagine like Oh here I am with these few things and I gotta make a life here. You know like my and I'm not even in a place that I would choose. Your just dropped in some random spot next to a bush and your. Letting the West. And it is. It's pretty wild for me. Psychologically, the hardest part was the UH, not knowing when it would end I kind of you know. I think that was. I was. Not Knowing not knowing who else is out there you start I gotTa admit every time the helicopter flew somewhere I'd be running out on the lake or whatever looking like. That's gotta be. That's gotta be probably the like the thing that's thought about lease but the most maddening element is that there's there's no there's no finish line in sight there is a finish line, but you know where it is you never know how far away you are from season seven spoiler. But but you know like I if you were. If you had insight like it must miss change the game complete. American made it really hard for like even physically because you don't know how much are your food each day because you know if they're going be here six months that I, you know like if I just knew it was so long and I could just eat this whole Moose in this amount of time you just gorge yourself but if you Think man. This thing might have to stretch me through February. You know then you have to then you got a whole nother angle to even on how to eat you know what I'm saying. And that's one reason why I think that the show is so gripping is because it really does replicate as close as humanly possible like a survival situation where if you're if you're plane crashed and you were stuck in the middle of the Arctic Circle alone. Who might be years before your discovered or never like so so it replicates this scenario that you'll. You'd never have like when you had your five week Solo in Siberia you, there is an end in sight. Like, you knew how to get yourself out of that situation you know would alone does is it puts puts you in the situation where but then at the same time you've got that get out of Jail Free Card like you've always got the temptation which is. A of the satphone drive you insane to be like I can I can make this all end now, and if I don't, I'm here forever I have no idea what time it is a brilliant scenario to put people through. It is well, plan show and actually like the gearless that you get, it's kind of like a it's what you need to potentially be sustainable and live out there but it's no more than that in it's Kinda you know allow you like I do like the way it set up to filming yourself element Jordan for you was that like an health had do deal with this or was it like, thank God at least to have something to do. For me, it was an advantage or you're not an advantage, but I liked it more than when I was in Siberia with nothing Siberia I remember there's a point where I was out there like three weeks. Came into a beautiful area now just like, wow, that's beautiful and then I was like, oh My Voice, I have actually heard my voice. As it struck me whereas, of course on alone you're like talking to the camera feel like you're trying to interact with China, share it with people I did a lot of dumb skits the try to pass the time and try to like you know try to use it as a tool also in the use it to apply for SNL like your. You didn't. Jordan. If you didn't win this or some spoiler guys, Jordan wants. But if you didn't win the show, right would if you don it any way I definitely went out there with the goal to win I. GotTa Say I. Got it done all that stuff. Free and have done. Anything to prove like I. didn't feel like I was proving a lot to myself. A hidden thing I didn't even realize until I, got out there was that it was a really cool opportunity to show people that I You know care about this other side of me because all my friends and family in America haven't been to Russia with me. So they don't really see that aspect as much and so it was like this is a cool opportunity to be able to share that. Again, it was something I appreciated about the cameras but what I've done it anyway well, I definitely there were times right I don't know if this would be worth it if I don't win better, try to win. Were ups. Season seven Roland gets million, instead of half a million. I was waiting for the check from the history, channel? Man another couple weeks up, there would have been great to love. Roland is a bad. Ask you know him I don't know. We definitely knows it stuff. The thing about the filming aspect of it is you give people a fulltime job. Right survival is a fulltime job there that you're laying another full time job on top of a to do the same time. So filming and I'd love to know your perspective but my my take on it is it slows you way the hell down right as a survivalist definitely affects your bill. Yeah. I really you know it definitely slows you down it hasn't been as. Psychological could can be if you have the right perspective a psychological plus. But in general, it's a big drag on everything you're trying to do like you know right? It's the it's the give and take. Right. So the the what we're providing is this experience right this this platform this ability to to showcase your skills and and go out and survivor and create this this created environment by which you can actually test your skills in a way that you haven't done before. But the but the flip side is the trade off is you have to fill yourself right? That's the and and we're we're there on one end and you're there on the other but I'd say that people that find success on the show participants define find success leded, filming the way that you did Peter. Dissect it, and it's something that I say as part of my, you know one of my speeches before. Remember that that you wouldn't really necessarily believe you. You're just trying to get the film, but it's not true. But if you if you lead into it, if you lead into it as a positive thing, you look at it as a gift something to fill your time something to focus on something to put your hands to it'll take you further in the in in experience. Now, only a lot of people like if you talk to people, everybody's always saying man I would. What are people doing those idiots they should be out hunting and fishing in all the time, which is basically what I tried to do. But even if you try to do that, you're still in avid downtime and you're still going to like. You know no matter how hard you try to exclusively hunt fish and trap you're GonNa you'd like Jack said leaning into that will. Actually. Oddly enough. Helps and so like you look at, you know I can tell tell you season to season the people that filled and it also will the people that filmed the most. It they. They went a little bit further. There were people that were good. That didn't have any interest in filming. So they didn't feel much. They didn't end up on screen that much. You know we didn't. We didn't. We don't choose like I. You know it's pretty unbiased. This story dictates what makes it on on camera what what makes the final cut were weaving together different stories were balancing different participants but ultimately, it boils down to WHO's given us the most material to work with Zach I. It's something I wanted to compliment you on and and the other shows, producers and creators that is like. The hardest thing to me an unscripted television is is to resist the temptation to add stuff to to kind of produce it because you're sitting there and you're you're photographing capturing reality in you're waiting for something to happen and a lot of times people get a little nervous and they just throw something into the mix to make something happen artificially and obviously on a loan like that is completely taken out of the equation. To put all this money and effort into into something that is so tenuous the so fragile this idea that people would be shooting themselves, filming themselves, getting usable audio and video that you can make a show with like that trust in that faith in in like the the medium itself is really commendable and and you don't see that another shows like like like no matter what kind of survival shows or any kind of unscripted shows. There's always some kind of like little. Poking and prodding from behind the fourth wall and you really don't see that whatsoever in alone. It's relaxing. Yeah. They really don't have that. You know all. It's not like they're affecting anything while you're out there if anything that might tell you bill or something, but there's no like there's no setting up your you know this or that. They Act surprised those Zach almost seems like you could probably do I mean it seems like you guys must have tons of, but you guys I must so much good footage because it's like Just from my experience, it's like I I met had a total of an hour of airtime from seventy seven days and it's like there's a lot of stuff you could and they actually it's oddly impressive. How much they fit into that our you know like. Rice. They do a pretty good job of showing off of the cool things but there are still a lot of things that don't make an I imagine everyone has that they knew I one I don't like Jerry slider Nada. Directors cutter like Youtube stuff well so Those are conversations that are constantly being had with the exact history to you know a couple of points, their zero point Jay I give a lot of credit to the exact history channel for taking take Geena chance because. You truly don't know if you're going to have a series especially in early seasons. Footage to even fill out, you know a a season and in season one in particular, they dropped down to four people within the first week. People dropped out by day seven in season one and so spoiler alert of. ME. and. So it was oh my gosh what's going to happen, and then with each passing season, it became more and more apparent that we we'd be able to do it then from an editorial perspective. Input I mean there's an army of people right sifting through all the material to to to kind of figure out exactly. What's there? But the the producers story producers and editors I, give you know the utmost credit to it's challenged my. As storyteller in ways that I never thought possible in this in the in unscripted television we really had to rethink how we how we tell the stories and how we get there and take a lot of material that maybe audio is bad or the. Perfect and find snippets and piece it together in a way that doesn't seem contrived and and be is you know is accurate right? If it you know we may take you know official jump from day to and put it on shot from bay three, but we don't really stray too much. Off The reality and the time line that it actually happened and so to your point Jordan. There are things that hit the cutting room floor that are amazing but don't fit the time line. We could actually fit something from day twenty into a scene from day fifty, but it's at it's too far OUTTA. It's too far away and that's those are those are you know snow to doesn't look the same? Facial hair and weight loss and and things like that. That happened. But still especially with the women because there's no facial hair growing. You could Fultz with the timeline if we chose but we we truly. Want to make the most offensive series. Out there possible and so we don't. Really don't mess with the time line and so things the cutting floor if they if 'cause we only focus on a handful of people per episode, something great was happening with this person. And we we try to find a place to put it in but if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit hits it hits the. See, the way today I love you guys resist the temptation because because again like you might have this great scene and the camera work is out of focus and you can barely see what's happening. You relied on the audio instead. But like but what you don't do is you don't fall into the temptation of like shooting a pickup shot or or or trying to make the. Introduced some kind of artifice into the whole equation, and honestly when I first heard about the show I thought I'm not going to like this show because it's shot by amateurs and it's it's gotta be horrendous to watch like you just just as a director and cinematographer on a technical basis but it really was not an even when the the footage is is is messy in raw and kind of fucked up quote unquote I loved. I loved that you resisted the temptation to make it make the quality better and tell the story differently with fake visuals. Because as soon as you do that, the whole thing collapses on itself like as soon as you introduce like. For instance if if the came down from the from the tower and it said, it said, we need to have like a funny challenge where roll barrels up the hill and they get a negative sack full of rice. You know if if they're successful I mean immediately that would just deflate the entire show like just adding anything artificial I. Love the fact that you you maintain purity and in that respect, it makes a big difference. From from the journey, the audience goes on with the show and the the investment the audience puts into it go. Well, thanks. I mean that's it. Is I. Think it is one of the things that makes it. So special we that balance because we do have camera operators that are out there shooting our Biro right, the beauty shots and those interstitial. So but the balance between that material and what the participants are filming think heightens both. Right. So you truly see you see this beauty. Beauty that studying and then you immediately know once you've transitioned over, know what those aerial shots and land on George site as a viewer. Okay. The POV's been handed back to the participant I'm on the ground with them and I'm seeing life through their lens. And if you know if they're horizon line is off, offer their filming themselves, you can't see their head it adds to the it adds to the authenticity I mean one of my favorite moments of the series. Like a history of the series is the night you went after that Wilbur Jordan. And you had that camera knee length and it was you know it was an I r that night vision and When I saw the raw footage I was looking at it at our base camp and. It was like a horror film it was. You could I in my mind this is going to be the best seen ever when it's edited because if it's this compelling. Tilley put some music behind it and we you know we edited. Little Bit. You walked off with your acts into the darkness and you were off Ca- off camera. Mad and you just hear the audio of what you're doing with this woven. Exactly. One of my biggest regrets that I didn't grab the camera and of course, it's in the moment magic, but he probably wouldn't have hilas show it honestly, but I don't know. And murder. Back. Very simple but. A storyteller it was. It was amazing and it just was so compelling. It was so real. It's so raw that to your again back to your point. Jay It. Those are hard moments to capture in any other way and in an ironic way or unexpected way it's very cinematic because like. Cinema in in movies sometimes you don't show is even more vibrant because then. You don't show the the act of violence. Audience creates that picture in their head and so it maintains the legitimacy of the scenario, which is like you just put the camera on the ground and then went to go hunt the Wolverine you left frame and we hear the audio and we illustrate all the visuals in our head and again activates the audience's imagination I. Mean it's it's like Blair witch project all over exactly. Moment, of television I haven't had that holy cow. Like with the Moose and stuff I was just one of the most exciting days in my life up and down but the wolverine was just like something. Picking to something else it was like primal like. You know film and all this happened and then you just think back. Wow. Let us APP that was crazy crazy. Because it was coming, it was coming for your food right? It was it was primal because it was it was about survival. He hid set the parameters that it was like either meet your him on that. Basically. He was AP after. Poor Guy, what do they call it? Apparently, they call it skunk bear. Mountain Devil I was reading an article about National Geographic. Mountain Devil you killed him out and devil Jordan. Annoy. You guys are busy. So we're GONNA start wrapping up here I was GonNa ask you Zach what is the closest you come in your life to living? The survivalists living since survival in the wild wilderness. So I think Jordan I there's a place that has sort of captured my imagination early on it was East Africa So Time Kenya Tanzania about a year so in my twenties and lived with. A bunch of various tribes there. And I spent. I don't know. They'll probably thirty day stretches. At, various times WH- studied archaeology that's what my degrees and so I was doing a dig down in southern Kenya off. And I spent probably. Thirty five forty days there. But again, we we had some relative relative support. But I'd say that was probably the. The longest stretches for me, but that's what got me into I. Want Him but I wanted to feel I ran into a film crew from National Geographic out there, and that's how I kind of caught the bug of wanting to get into the side of things. You been doing it ever since really do you go crazy camping likely no supplies I your own version showed. You, subject yourself same. Scenario obviously level. I would never ever Deign to put myself on the level of these these folks the participants but I've picked up a skill here and there and I, you know building building some shelters in the woods behind the House with my girls and you know I just went out with my my youngest just before this call actually we were hauling. Holland into blogs and we're going to you know build build stuff in the garage. But so yeah, we're we're out there I do a little weekly survival school. Now that we're doing home, you know homeschooling. So I take two hours once a week and take him out in the woods that we work on. Fire building or shelter building whatever whatever it is. Great. I feel like Youtube, guys I mean most zagged but also Jordan for your becoming celebrity of sorts is like you guys kind of inspired a lot of people to connect to nature like. Before we wrap things up. I just want to say one thing which is I think the the show like. Is such an important show to the history of cinema and film. It's not just like an entertaining. TV Show I mean like I was telling Zach in an email. Weeks ago that that you know I have a degree in film theory. Well that's what they studied in colleges like film theory where it's like, you know you watch films and you apply these kind of you know kind of heading cloud theories about everything and like one thing that that the world of of of academia cinema academia has been exploring is this idea of cinema verite and so like through documentary, how can we truly be truthful in documentaries and you know like like what constitutes truth and and I think alone needs to be studied by film school because it's The only time that there has ever been true cinema verite we. which is like a as close to A. Objective view on reality. Now, of course, it's not completely pure because you're using cameras and using. Sound in you're pointing the cameras you're using editing you're telling the story but like there's something about what what alone does, which is it gets into the psychology of human beings like like like the experience of human beings like no one ever has. Just like the, it's like you're getting a view into someone's subconscious and psyche because because they're talking to the camera as if they're they're thinking aloud if that makes sense but I just want to say I think it's a really important work of art and it needs to be studied. Film. Theorists need to write books about it. I mean it's really something special and unique and I think you guys for for for bringing it to us and I think individually like it. Especially, during this very rough year on many people, it undeniably has been. Like associating with the hero and you know taking on this hero's journey and a you know having transformation and Catharsis as A. Very ancient Greek sense of like coming out cleaner and may be happier the end because it is sort of like a psychedelic trip in the sense that like you, you really feel like you've been through the rough rough times with these people as you watch it and because you know it's real. So I for many people, they have very deep feelings about the show. So thank you both for. Making it what it is to all of us it's truly special. You should be very proud of it. I appreciate that so much. I really do. Thanks so much for saying that Jordan it's so good to to see you Glad every will well yeah man and likewise, this will be fun to meet up sometime. Absolutely let's get it together I'm in. Thank you so much for listening to this. If you want to check out our previous episode about TV show alone, one of them is an interview with nicotine shined all of season six, check them out on our podcast feed anywhere. You get your podcasts and hey, why don't you subscribe to this podcast? Maybe give it a rating on apple and Follow on. INSTAGRAM. We don't do a lot of things on the ground, but it might be helpful to sometimes to check in with. Always have something new cooking and all kinds of ECLECTIC. Coming up so just Follow us on twitter and Instagram at shut out by loved one. Thank you Elizabeth Salute for artwork. Thank you Brian Walker for this music. And thank you for listening.