Today's episode is brought to you by focus on. It's a brand new podcast by focus features. I love focus features all the movies. I feel like whenever I see that logo. I know I'm in for a good time. Focus on ticks a deeper look at the stories behind the latest focus feature films. That's kind of cool from the history behind the trial of Mary Queen of Scots to the trajectory of the equal rights amendment. You can listen now on apple podcasts. Amy. Will you be listening to focus on? Absolutely. I will be that sounds fascinating. I am down our focus on wherever you listen to pod gas. But specifically on apple podcasts. Here's another great pass recommendation. It is called the angel of vine. It is a new crime podcast cramped pass are great. But what this is. It's an audio drama about a journalist uncovers the tapes of a nineteen fifties private eye who cracked the greatest murder mystery Hollywood has never known. And then tell us all I love this. It's a great mix of Hollywood and murder and mystery and everything and the cast includes like Joe manganiello. Alfred Molina we lo- Zimmer love this. Raising. And you know, what if you want us an angel LeVine as you should you can listen to every episode ad free. Plus bonus content exclusively premium so for free month of a premium go to Stitcher dot com slash angel and use promo code unspoiled and get your murderer on the air is nineteen Ninety-two and the western is dead, belatedly, the movie unforgiven. Hey, everybody and welcome to on the spoiled, and I am Paul Scheer. And this is the podcast where we watched one film from the af is one hundred greatest films list, two thousand seven addition to see if they really are as good as people say do they hold up and how they influenced the film's we watch. Now this week. We'll be talking about the Clint Eastwood classic unforgiven. But before we get into that. Let's look back to last week's episode which ties very closely to this week's episode, which of course, is the searchers. You know, Paul I'll say we got a lot of comments. I think we're totally fair. That said did you guys really give a definitive answer on whether or not you felt like the searchers belong on the list? And you're right. When I really listened to think about it. I didn't. And I've been kind of wrestling with all week thinking like why was that? And I realized I took a long hard look at myself. And I thought this is a film that I had such a hard time admitting. I don't like this time. And I don't know why had such a hard time admitting it I mean part. Of why we're doing this show is to look at the list question, the list pull apart list, and for some reason, the searchers was one that kinda hit this bruise on me where I was worried. If I said, I didn't like it. I was wrong. And usually I don't feel that that insecure, but my opinion, I don't know why the searchers makes me feel so insecure. Well, you know, what it's funny island girl had written to us and said, you know, you didn't really give definitive answer. Does it belong on the list? And I was going to write her back and felt like I'm wrestling with the two because it's visually Representative of westerns. But I don't know if I'd ever go back and watch it. And I think thinking about it knowing that like Martin Scorsese and Steven Spielberg think it's the best you feel like what did I miss? Well. Okay. Well, as a thought experiment, let's do this. What if we both at the same time says say, no, it doesn't. And then see how we feel ready to when you know, what I feel really good. I feel great. I actually let's put stagecoach back on have John Ford up there. And I could call peace with that. I am a hundred percent down. I didn't even see stagecoach. But I believe I believe your belief in it. But yeah, I think we're we're saying we don't believe it on the list. Yeah. I mean, Catherine Mary wrote and she said, you know, there's some beautiful shots and excellent framing the color palette was gorgeous. But it was awful. It's the mythology of white American supremacy bordering on propaganda. And maybe this helps clarify are complicated feelings about it a little bit which is. Yes, this film is really important. So arguably in the history of American cinema is birth of a nation the very first blockbuster, and the af I was okay. Kicking off a list. Right. I mean, they without caring about the historical record. It may be. That's the precedent that we can kind of sleep on. I'm all on board with that. A lot of people were also asking us like you know, what westerns should be on this. And we're gonna be talking about a very influenced one today's episode, but I'd like to even throw up. I think tombstone is go to western for me. I don't know if it's one of the best films of all time. But it's one of my favorite westerns. I know people also talked about dead, man. Right. Which is a Johnny Depp. Jim Jarmusch western is. Yeah. Well, I also think that the man shot. Liberty Valance is one that I really wanna get into because that one comes up a lot people talk about it as much as they talk about your beloved, stagecoach absently and real Bravo. Lots of people love to see real here. Instead, you know that I wonder is there a quota of how many westerns we want. There's a lot of westerns how many westerns do we need? Do we need westerns because this is an American list, and the western is the most American form, I would argue could you put blazing saddles on this list. I would all my I would love to have saddles on this list. I mean, it does the Justice of kind of poking fun at the traditional arc types of the western. But also telling a traditional western film as well. Okay. I'll stick your hand. Let's do a handshake on get the searches the list get blazing saddles on reading to that. Yeah. Here we go. That's that's a good. We we. Hedgehogs are not the most audible high fives. Definitely. And then before we get into unforgiven. I want to ask you a question. This is from Mike seventy nine P. And he writes, I'm starting to think the Pauline kill was a bad critic. Here's a few movies. She gave bad reviews to vertigo raiders of the lost ark two thousand and one stand by me superman, the movie Bladerunner raging bull CASA Blanca and a clockwork orange. It's a lot of classic American films. I know you love Pauling kale. I love reading her writing. Discuss. Well, Mike, seventy nine PM. I think I'm a bad critic too. Because I don't like some of the movies on that list part. I do have some those superman the movie is great. But maybe the ideas that you can be a good critic. But you don't have to love everything that everyone else loves I think, you know, what I like in your writing. And what I've even enjoyed them. Palling kale's writing is she makes really interesting points. And a lot of the times, it's not a slam against the film, it she's talking about things at work and things that don't work. And you know, it's the way that she viewed this thing, it's true. I mean, Pauline kell definitely never saw criticism as public service as don't go waste your money and buying a ticket to this which honestly I feel the same way about to. I would love for people to see any movie that I like right about even if I'm trashing it because then we can talk about it. Right. So she's not saying don't waste your money or kill that movie. Or boycott that movie she's saying, let's have a conversation. She's starting a conversation. And now. I wanna start at one more conversation with you last week, we asked who would you rather have in your posse? We watched John Wayne movie last week, we watch a Clint Eastwood movie this week, Amy. I want you to think about that. I know my answer. But now, let's hear what our listeners thought about who they wanted in their posse leader of my posse would be Clint Eastwood, I feel that he just has that quiet steely demeanor that would help get the job done. I would have to go with. Clint Eastwood seems like he's still kicking ass sort of even if he's on his way out my Paci has to be Clint Eastwood because he'll probably ring invisible Barack Obama with him. And we can all have an interesting conversation. If you pay Clint and didn't betray him. He would follow you the hell, whereas John Wayne, I think I think he his personality just seemed a little too Radic. And you seem like he was gonna be doing things his way. I would definitely have to choose John Wayne to lead up high posse because to Clint Eastwood movie Clint Eastwood, probably the only one getting out alive, and I would probably end up dying and to shot, very violent me. And I don't have to worry about that. And John Wayne, so yes, I would choose John Wayne for the leader of my bus because I think he would be more focused and reliable. Whereas I think Clint Eastwood would be trying to sleep with somebody. Client. Some good answers there. Amy who do you want your posse? I'm thanking gene wilder. Gene wilder rugged. I won't cleave on little. No. If I had to pick between John Wayne and Clint Eastwood, I think I'm picking Clint Eastwood, I think as a cowboy he is much more menacing. I would not want to be on the other side of a gun from Clint Eastwood, I just feel like never underestimate him. Even as we're gonna find out today as William money, the guy still got the goods, even though he was a little bit older than the Cowboys missile. The year is nineteen Ninety-two. Bill Clinton becomes the president the Washington Redskins win the Super Bowl the top songs. I will always love you by Whitney Houston. The first nicotine patches introduced to help stop smoking and DNA fingerprinting is invented. It's the last year that both the winter and summer Olympic Games shared the same year. And the spinner hubcap was invented by James JD. Greg of Tulsa, Oklahoma top part throbs of the day, Marky, Mark, Wahlberg, and Fabio and the big movies included Aladdin home loan to lost in New York. Batman returns and unforgiven unforgiving. We got Clint Eastwood as William will money. I really liked that the cut it's specialized you can call William will you got Gene Hackman as little Bill Daggett. You got Morgan Freeman as Ned Logan. You got Richard Harris father of Jared, Harris the villain in today's movies as English, Bob. He got James Wilbert as the Scofield. Kid francis. Fischer strawberry, ls and a person very dear to my. Art, Anthony, James escape DuBois who we just saw as the evil diner clerk in in the heat of the night. And also in the poison video he is back in this movie. What's so funny? When I first saw him on each Clint Eastwood impression because the first time you see him. It's a here the Cocco guys ago. Right. Put it, Dan. Oh, and it was like he looks just like that guy. Did not realize that guy thirty years later. Fun fact. Wow. Now that we have done heat of the night. And then also unforgiven those are currently his first movie and his last movie, we just saw the entire arc of Anthony James's career, not bad. I actually think he's great in this film me kind of. It's an interesting character that he makes memorable it is directed by. And starring Clint Eastwood, it is a western his familiar genera and genre. They more or less hung up his Spurs from after this film in unforgiven. He plays an assassin who's retired. His name is will money. He is dragged back in action by the promise of a thousand dollars that he's going to split three ways between his buddy Morgan Freeman. And younger kind of wild, man. Scofield kid all you have to do is kill these two guys who cut up a prostitute because she laughed at his penis for being too small. It is a film about wrestling with violence about the myth of violence in the west where Clint Eastwood mutters a lot about how he regrets the violence of his youth. Yes. An Amy I'm so excited. We're talking about this movie this week a week after we talked about the searchers, I know that there is a little bit of a feeling of to us turns in a row, but in many ways these films parallel each other. I think they're showing a different side of the west. And I think this movie is a lot more successful as a film. And as making a statement about the west did they parallel like to stirrups on a saddle driving forward. Yeah. I think he's really interested in be talking about the searchers because it feels sort of like a cap of so many things we've been talking about we've got Gene Hackman again as a gun, which it's so I mean here he is playing the local sheriff editor, I find it. So that like we have now seen Gene Hackman three times as a dude with the gun when all Gene Hackman does between making his films was talking about how he doesn't want to be the dude with the gun. I mean, he literally had to be co worst into this film. Like, he did not want to do Hugh so nervous about the violence in it. It's interesting. I really want to understand Gene Hackman a little bit more. There's not many interviews with him. He's a hard guy to kind of pin down Hackman is like what if every time you left the house to go grocery shopping in your bathrobe, you got photographed and those are like the only three photographs of you in existence and he's like timid. Like Britney Spears eating Cheetos of gunslinging people in movies, but I will say his characters in each of those films that we've talked about are extremely different and in this film. He in many ways is the tag inist. He's the villain, but in a traditional western he'd be the hero. Yeah. I kinda like him best. I I like him a lot in the film and me, but he's a violent vindictive guy. I mean, his whole point of view in the film is to create order. I will rule with fear. I mean, you know, he doesn't want guns in this town except for him. And then when someone comes to this town to collect this reward for you know, this prostitute who had gotten her face cut. He beats this man in a way that so aggressively bloody. And then does it again to Morgan Freeman. You see this very dark side of him. But there's a version like I said of the story where if you saw it from his point of view BIC. Yeah. The sheriff does, you know, don't take those shit. And he keeps his talent together. Well, orderly because his dream is just for everybody to chill the hell out. So that he can hang out at his house and drink coffee and the push. That is literally all he wants what he's instituting has really no different than like, no shirt. No shoes. No service. It's just if you bring your gun to town. He's going to beat you up, and I it away of dictatorship Amy it is. But I think he's doing for the greater good of these people would stop showing up. It granted I find this is true. I don't think this is always been as policy, I think it's been his policy. Once he figured out that all of these people want to come and shoot up this town, and he was like, well that can't happen. So it's a temporary measure he put in. It's it is literally martial law. Yes. So he's saying like look to create a sense of safety. I am dictating. What is safe what I like to live in that town, probably to a certain extent. I think it brings up the interesting part of this movie is. About how one rules with violence as his type of violence better. Then the type of violence that he despises at the risk of like being the person who defends the law and order candidate. Like, I find a little horrific even as I'm doing it. I'm surprised at it. I would say from gene Hackman's point of view, the two people. He beats up beats up our. That's okay. He always he beats up a a murderer that he knows a murderer who killed a dude like who was like lying on the floor with his hand blown off. He kills a do the Dino's as bad who's come to his town to start trouble. Okay. Basically, Gary Cooper. Okay. And then the other guy kills Morgan Freeman. After Morgan Freeman is part of an assassination attempt that killed someone. He doesn't just like kill him randomly. He like he's did something orchards him for information. And then kills him. And technically Morgan Freeman didn't kill a person in his town. He did shoot him in this town well outside of town. Oh, you're you're drawing the line on where he shot him. Yes. You can't have a gun in in the town. But you can have a gun outside of the town. Whatever happens outside, those are two hundred outside Vegas stays outside. Because I don't think that's how. But I mean, here's a guy who is you know, I mean means a criminal who's out there and another criminal comes across him. And he kills them for money. But that has nothing to do with his tail, but doesn't it? I mean. Okay. Okay. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that his will to create order. I think those a little bit further than he needs to like he could have put both those people in jail. No, he brutalizes one. And he kills another to prove a point. And it's sort of like his point is I'm going to do Oltra violence on you instead of penalizing, you the way that the law should be. I. Three. But here's another reading. Okay. What if this whole movie is him attempting to make up for the mistake that Gene Hackman does at the very beginning. When he doesn't become the violence candidate. Because what are we I see of Gene Hackman? He is like I should whip. These guys actually I should maybe killed them for like slicing up this woman. But you know, what we're just going to do this the peaceful way give me horses, and then because of that all of this like hellfire breaks loose women are like that is not nearly enough punishment. So then he over corrects, maybe he didn't wanna be this guy. I mean, granted he should have absolute punish them by the way besides horses. But but I mean big comes from this idea of being a dictator. He's ruling by his own laws. And he he's saying we'll know I'm gonna make about horses. I'm not gonna make it about killing those people because he didn't believe that those men deserved a criminal punishment because they were just prostitutes. Right. But these prostitutes are saying, no, this is a woman who has been attack. She deserves revenge. She deserves Justice. So it's like the whole movie is kind of like who's Justice is right. And I would argue that Gene Hackman does like violence. I mean the way that he speaks to Saul Rubenesque who I am a big fan of the biographer who's writing the sensational pulpy western novels with English. Bob, win duck of death or the duck of death. And by the way, talking about humor and going back to the searchers. Here's a great example of humor in this film. Really well done, you know, eliminates a character. I don't know. I think I I liked the jokes in this movie. People who haven't washes in a minute eater. The duck of death is that this biographer WW boat champ. He is writing a book about English, Bob, and he wants to call it the Duke of death, and it I would Gene Hackman calls it, the duck of death. You're like, oh, he's literate little deer. But that he just keeps calling duck and his insistence on making him a duck. I find all right. But I think that there's a part of Gene Hackman comes alive when he's telling these stories because he's telling these stories about English bobbies. That's actually not what happened. This is what happened, and he talks about you know, he likes to mythologies himself as much as the duck of death is doing they're just doing it differently. And I think this is what's so interesting about this movie. It is a commentary on what the west is in. We watch all these movies where you know. Traditionally, you know, John Wayne was the hero. But he's doing bad things. He's meeting out Justice. But because we're viewing it through his lands. He's the good guy. And I think you see that really beautifully executed with the Scofield kid when he has his home monologue after he finally kills someone, you know, he's trying to be this cowboy and then realizes the toll that that actually takes because the murder in this film is not glorified. I mean at the end when Clint Eastwood really goes. All out, it's impressive. But it's it's a, you know for lack of a better word real. Well. Yeah, we are talking about last week. How strange it was that. This is that the searchers movie were John Wayne shoots three people in the back, which is like so against western code. I mean away. Yeah. We've seen this progression. Like high noon classic showdown. Middle of town. Fastest draw. Rules. No rules in the searchers in here. Totally no rules. And like I feel like the commentary with John Wayne shooting people in the back was like did what he had to do. So it goes here. I think the commentary is more like there is no glory and being a murder ever read like the way that people murder is going to be sad and pitiful. They're not gonna feel good about it. And even when a Gene Hackman till stories about other murderesses witness. There's no glory in any of this. They're like taking away any sense of like, okay. Good job punch on the shoulder, man. Nice job except for that ending death. Which is why I think that ending death is really strange, but I that ending death kind of encapsulates exactly you're saying like when? Gene, Hackman is on the ground. And he's like, I don't deserve to die this way. And I think it's viewed as Clint Eastwood equip, you know, our he goes deserves nothing to do it. There are no bad guys. Good guys are just human beings in killing one person doesn't make better. And I feel like you know, it is all about how your conscience guides. You like I think Gene Hackman little Bill feels very good about himself because he's using violence in his mind correctly. And I think you know, you have Clint Eastwood who use violence in the past and away that he's embarrassed and ashamed us we carries that weight. I think Morgan Freeman's character is someone who used violence to meet an end like all, right? Got him his job. But that's not the fines and me goes and lives his way. You have a young kid Scofield kid is like I won't violence to to define me. I wanted to be the thing, and then you know, English Bob who is also using it and that same way as a Scofield kid like for notoriety and success and and to be. Something. So it's interesting like your conscience, kind of dictates it. But at the end of the day, you're still taking a life is is there any glory in that. Yeah. It's weird. I mean because this one little camera trick happens right before that final shootout where Clint Eastwood rides into the bar to to kill Gene Hackman into kill everybody else in the bar, which is the camera. Suddenly goes to his point of view, you there's a little shift where all of a sudden we're inside him as he's on horseback riding into it. And that's a little bit of the camera of Clint Eastwood nudging being like, it's okay to identify with this guy right now like he's been not wanting to be this guy. But in the moment that Clint Eastwood in this film becomes the cowboy that he's always said he's going to be. That's when the cameras like. And now you're with him it kind of makes you identify. Well, I mean, this is Clint Eastwood's would be without a doubt. I mean, the title is Representative of him. And I think we're following his journey. Like, here's a guy who. You know, very much like Michael Corleone and the best godfather godfather three every time. He's out that keep on pulling them back in the. You know, he's pulled in his farm is failing. He's like I can make a thousand dollars, but three ways that will save this little farm that he has. And you're watching this men who doesn't want to be doing this do it. And I think at the end when the camera does it it's like, all right? You wanna see me be that guy here? I'll be that guy the whole movie he's kind of a little bit against it. Like, even when he tells us, go feel good go. Yeah. Go kill him. Do it like he is not in it for violence agree. But then there's that moment, where switches, it's you know, I think shown really well where he goes to have has a drink like the whole movie he doesn't want to drink. He's not going to have a drink. That's the old him. And he's like all right. Fuck it. Let's go. You wanna see me? I told you who I am. It's it's the incredible hulk kind of moment it's like now. Yeah. This is me, and we don't really live with him. After that moment. It's like we don't we see him in the first shot, which is the last shot, you know, this house. That's now abandoned we understand that he may. They have moved to San Francisco and become a businessman are evil. We don't see the repercussions that that has. But for that one night. He went off the wagon. Yeah. We hear the repercussions. Gene. Hackman is like is like, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. That's I'm committing to that. Now. But don't you think it's a little weird in his arc? He is like who man. I can't shoot a gun on really bad at this guys. And there's almost like comedy the like Indiana Jones when he was like, okay. If I can't do it with a pistol. I got a shotgun. And you can't get on a horse at us as bad at aiming. He's bad at the whole thing. And you're sort of like, oh, the little plucky underdog like he can't get his killing Mojo bag. But then suddenly at the end he's like a terrific shot who mows down five people in this film were death has been hard to accomplish for everybody right messy in undignified sorta Li when the chips are down. He's like all right. I got this. It's this movie is saying everybody is bad at murdering except for Clinton when he really puts his heart to God bless him. I don't disagree with you. I mean, it is definitely the most glamorous shootout it re in it is an old fashioned like people flying over tables. And we're you have a film where I think it's actually really beautifully done. The town feels real to me doesn't feel overpopulated which I think a lot of westerns she'll very bustling high. No the marm yet. And it's like, you know, the streets are so crowded and kids are, you know, doing those kind of those wheels with a stick, and you know. That you're gonna say doubled. And but telling here felt like it's the right amount of people. Even when they're getting the posse together at one point. It's no no more than like ten or twelve guys. You know, it it feels right? And and in that scene. It feels the most Hollywood I do agree with that. Maybe because he's that good. You know, maybe he is the legend that is real. And another senior really want to talk about is that prison scene where Gene Hackman is whipping Morgan Freeman it's such an intense scene. And I think it shows the complexity of this character because he can be brutal that times, but I think also views himself as a pacifist. I mean that scene. I think is why like Hackman wanna do the film Ming as he was like, oh, don't make me hold a gun. But what really changed his mind was that, you know, this movie comes out right after the Rodney King beating and. He was thinking if I do this film if I play this officer of the law who beats up Morgan Freeman. This is me, you know, being this figurehead being like, Darryl gates. You're in charge of of people getting abused under my watch. It's weird 'cause like Clinton he sort of I really casually as the villain right signing on for that way. Definitely feels like a villain move as well. But what's it was kind of strange about that Satan to it is like it's a real little thing that kind of goes by is that you will learn that Morgan Freeman actually did wind up writing on Clint Eastwood, which almost never happens in one of these movies. It's like, no he died. But he didn't you hear this like he did. Right. You're he gave you all everything about you. Well, this film, actually deconstructs the traditional western we talked about that a little bit last week is the searchers didn't I think that this movie does it's like, no, you know, what? Hey, ratted amount things. Don't end great. The Scofield kid is nothing but a lie. You know, there is no grand love in this movie. You know, there's like that. Really great. Scene between Clint Eastwood and Delilah. But it's not anything more than what you would potentially see in real life. I think that this movie is deconstructing western, but also paying off all the beats you want to see in a western. I mean that that seat between him into Lila's kind of looney. Can we really talk about? Sure. Okay. Listen, let me say right up front. I am not saying that Clint Eastwood in his movie is an end sell. And I'm like, I'm I'm not saying, I know like really on this insult trip. I think my language has been a little clumsy because what I'm really just sort of struck upside down with is the fact that all of these films that watching in a row have the scene where the main character says he just isn't getting any and I just it's not technically sell behavior. But unforgiven also has this twice while he says he doesn't miss sex. Yeah. He's miss it. But like it's weird that we keep having of these characters would be like, yeah, I'm totally alone. And I I think and I know you're not saying as an insult, but I do believe that the romantic part of him is that he is still. You know, his love was his wife who believed in him and saw the good in him. His. I mean, if you do the math on his wife's tombstone, I mean, she's very young person who will do this. He fell in love with his wife when she was twenty one. He was fifty one. I'm like, okay. It an intro in the scroll. It makes a point of just saying the one definition of his wife who get his she's calmly. So it's like Easter being like, yeah. Got hot wife. Okay. Lee. You know, what I'm going to back up even for them like backing up and backing up. Okay. I did just see them. You'll okay. The new Clint Eastwood where you know, it's present day. So he must be he's eighty eight and the movie gives him not one but two threesomes he's like playing himself Eighty-eight old, man. Driving trucks will the drugs back for the country. And there's just the scenes where like you see him leaving his motel with two babes who are so happy in another seemingly gets hit on at a party. They like watching and then re watching on forgiven. It's so strange to me that Clint Eastwood keeps making these movies. There's like I'm an old guy who you know. I turned down lots of love. I get offered. Lots of love, you know, like what is supposed to. Effect on us the audience to have all of these scenes were all of these dudes keep saying that they don't have a woman like what is it is it to make them seem more vulnerable? Is it like the most vulnerable thing? You can be as a man is to admit that you don't get laid alert. Is it that we think oh, it must be kind of a nice guy. And he hasn't met the right girl. Maybe I could save him. Like is it does it speak to some sort of like unattached went from the world's with? Okay. If he dies like some reason why they're all here. And I find it super weird argue that a lot of films show people at an imperfect point in their life. And if you go to you know, comedies like nut. Well, wrong comes definitely. But even like if you were to go to your traditional comedy films. You always a finding this lovable loser. Who then falls in love with, you know, most likely if it's an eighties nineties film, like US Super hot girl or finds out the super hot girl is not as cool as the best friend, you know, but that never even gets redeemed in these movies. It doesn't even ever come up. Interesting. Night. But it's an interesting thing because I think we've talked a lot about like where there is misogyny in these films. But then we're also talking about this idea that these men are complete without a woman to I mean, because that's what we're showing we're showing, oh, the they need this other thing in their life. I'm going to town on occasion, some hog pickups. No, no. I mean. Get this woman. No, I never go into town for that, man. Like me. Only one of them like me can get his point to have to pay for it. Right by flush. Body restor. So over never want me doing something like that being a father. I can't think of that many westerns that reference masturbation like Morgan Freeman put him in. It's kind of a funny moment, isn't it? I mean, that's you know, like, they feel like these are two Cowboys out on the planes talking about sex, which never seen a traditional western like, you know, you don't like you see these men that are like love my horse. And I do think, you know, John Wayne's talking about, you know, jerking off by showing a scene like this. It's it's kind of groundbreaking in in its simplicity. It's like what would these two guys we talked there on the source for forever? What are the talking about educate laid? How did you get? What happens like what's the deal? Like, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I think it's very real. Yeah. I guess this movie does posit that when men are alone there. They're going to talk about murderer masturbation. All right. Listen to him Paul Scheer champion for masturbation talk in other podcasts Patrie on you can subscribe. He will be talking about all the great films fast times. I f aside. Well, then let's turn. Let's listen to him turning down. The Lila the woman who's gotten her face guard. She's asked him if he wants a freebie. This is what he turns out what I want you guys. Listen to is how the movie makes a point of flattering Eastwood by her being so disappointed that she can't have sex with him. And then how the scene continues. And it gives us this lick our little sad vision of music would he mentions his wife, which I did. Well, my husband would you like a frequent? No. I guess not. I didn't read with me. I meant. Allison, silky would be happy to give you a free one that if you want to want that that's fully that. I didn't want to free went on account Huby cut up and all. And what I said the other day about you, look like me that ain't true, you ain't ugly like me. It's just that. We both got scars mature beautiful woman. If I was to want a free one I'd wanna with you. I guess more than the mother to just. Why can't I kinda my life? Okay. Every listen here. This is all I'm saying, this is we could have lived this whole movie without ever having to think about Clint Eastwood's Boehner, and he just keeps kind of bringing it up. And it's a thing. He doesn't so many of his movies where he becomes as like kind Mira even within individual scenes every seen. He's like, I'm an old guy. Oh, but I could get them. I just find it fascinating. It's like he's proven something that scene is a bizarre scene in the film because you don't really need it. If you were to cut any scene in the film. This film is not made better by the scene. It's not made worse by the scene. It's just sort of like an extra brush stroke. You know, because there's no you said stroke. Starting down given every. I think what they're trying to show in a certain respect is. He is a just man. Even when present like if he was lying and Morgan Freeman we're seeing it here. We wouldn't have to lie. He he loves his wife. He doesn't drink. He's really trying to change this point in time. And so that's why by that he can't shoot the gun anymore. You can shoot the shotgun because he's a sort of like new and left it behind. Now. I'm this. I'm this other this other you know, he's reinvented himself, by the way. I just wanna give a shout out to this. Actress who I really like Anna Levin who plays. Delilah and also saw Ruben could plays the biographer both in a true romance. So when I got to see them in this movie together to very excited, I loved Hermansson. It was a great to see them back at it together. I do wanna flag because I think it's interesting like this scene and the one right before it where she's also nurse meeting him are really only times we see her character talk, which seems almost like a choice at the beginning. Because this is a film about all these women putting this. Revenge plan into motion on her behalf, and they don't let her speak about it. Right. You know, you get these like cut away as where when you know, one of the younger guys, the one of the younger people who is marked for death gives her his nicest horse, and you cut to her, and you can't tell from her face if she's like, actually maybe kind of fine with that. He's with the horse before Francis farmer starts throwing the horse dung, Adam in so isn't just in this movie that never lets her speak about how she would want to resolve this except when Jefferson a free one, and I'm like, okay. That's where she that's what she gets to talk. But I've I find I think it'd be more fascinated by her if she'd never ever spoke, you could see a version of this movie from the prostitutes perspective, which would be really interesting. I think that's one of the things I really love about this film is you could really turn the camera on any of these main characters, and it can become their movie entirely. And the reason why is because the script is so well written. It's a it's a script that thing really services. All. All the characters for the most part. I don't disagree with you in regards to Delilah 's character right now, but one of the play clip that France, Fisher talks about the script. It's the only script I've ever worked on that had its original white pages. 'cause usually always rewrite and you get the pink and the golden whatever, blah, blah, blah. This was word for word the original script because David people's wrote such a beautifully descriptive piece. If you guys could ever get a hold of that script and just read it it reads like a novel, it's beautiful. I just ended. That's fashioning. I mean, I've worked in a bunch of different things, and you're constantly in a sea of revision marks, and this is not an older film. This is a movie that comes out in nineteen Ninety-two. His really has written back in one thousand nine hundred seventy five France for COPA was going to make this film for awhile. And then Clint Eastwood bought it from him and then sat on it. And then eventually made it, but it didn't even make it to Clint Eastwood at one point because his script reader read it, and she's like it's garbage trash, and they found it and at different woman who is also like a star supervisor who was also sort of his girlfriend on the side when he was cheating on his mango fund. She actually was like you should do this. I think it would be amazing for your career. Wow. It or what she realized like this film is going to be like on track to be actually made into be a big deal. She asked him if she could get like, a finders fee and a little bit of a screen credit. And he said, no. And then actually by coincidence. This it seems like as we kind of sick to the studio on her because then the New York Post coincidently rent a big story about how she was like a floozy on page six. Wow. I just had to drop that in hearing that you know, this movie could have been made by Francis Ford Coppola. It would have been interesting. I think they were chasing John Malkovich for the lead at one point. And now which came out and said like, oh my God. That would have been the biggest mistake. I would never been able to do this character Justice. What if you took this movie though, and you flipped Gene Hackman and Clint Eastwood 'cause I would almost say the depth that Gene Hackman would bring to the Clint Eastwood character res- either give Clint Eastwood was playing the local sheriff. I will be more convinced. He was the villain. You know? I love that casting. I'm just thinking about the film through that lens is clear. Clint Eastwood more of a sad figure. Does he look like the world has beat him down more than Gene Hackman? I think there's something that when you look at Gene Hackman, even in this film where he doesn't pretty awful stuff. You still look at him and kind of you are on his side. Whereas I think Clint Eastwood's a harder by sometimes he's not just like, John Wayne. He's not a man of many words, he doesn't really let you in. Speaking of the script, and you know, the beauty of the script. We should maybe here a little bit. From our first guest. We have David Webb peoples. He is the screener of unforgiven and also he wrote twelve monkeys. He wrote later he's written a lot and he's here. David. Hello. Welcome to unschooled. So a lot of people talk about this as Clint Eastwood's definitive film. But I think when they say that they're forgetting that it's based on your script. Like, this is your statement about the west like what inspired you to make this film? I always like preferred I think the kind of offbeat revisionist westerns rather than John Wayne westerns, which is decided like the John Wayne westerns. I just was pulled towards the revisionist was when I was eleven ten or eleven years old Henry king's gunfighter came out. And I remember as a little ten year old boy just being knocked out by the gun fighter. It was great. I always remembered that I'd like this film is a ten year old. But I didn't think about it by anything like that. But after unforgiving came out the company, I can't remember if it was FOX or who it was. Wanted to put out a package three westerns along on this list was the gunfighter. And I said, geez. I'll put an interview on there about the gunfighter if you'll just send me a copy of the gunfight available. You could see it. And so they sent me this copy. And I was done at how much of that. I carried with me from the time. I was ten I it just an exceptional picture in Gregory Peck, plays a of you know, this allusion gunfighter who wishes he wasn't a gunfighter. And obviously influenced me to remember without me realizing. And then what had happened is. I tried never have anybody killed in the screenplays I wrote 'cause Hollywood deaths seem so unreal to me Hollywood killing and death. And I just thought well, you can't I just awful. And and I'm not gonna kill people in an entertainment movie. But then run that time taxi. Driver came out and pulse. Raters picture with stunning. And made me realize you could write a booby. That was entertaining and have people dying not making a sort of a JAMES BOND or a melodramatic thing. We'll speaking about nineteen seventy six you wrote this movie of way before it was produced in made. And it kind of has this amazing journey in the sense that it was held by Francis. Ford Coppola for a little bit, right? And then moved over to Clint Eastwood, did you feel at this movie was maybe never going to get made at a certain point. Or, you know, or did you always have faith that this is going to finally see the light of day. Obviously, I was hopeful. But one thing when you're a writer, you have to keep looking at the next great thing, you're gonna right. Forget about everything that's behind you. And so I wasn't thinking too much about it. I was disappointed when Clint Eastwood bought it. I sort of thought it would be as next western and then along came. Pale rider. And so I thought well, maybe he lost interest. So I was feeling a little discouraged. And then jam it. My co writer and wife happened to be telluride when he was there, and she ran into him and asked him he said, I'm just about to announce it. But as I say, I try not to think about all the scripts that aren't being. Absolutely. I mean, your body of work is so amazingly diverse, and I think one of the greatest compliments ever heard about a script was what Francis Fisher said she said like that. There was no revision marks when they went to go shoot this movie, which means that your vision was fully scene. Which is I think a very rare thing, you know, I think it absolutely extraordinarily rare. What's beautiful about it is how much quit Eastwood embraced it. I mean, I think like myself he was frustrated at first with it, and and tried to make it better. But he said to me that he said somebody said, well, you know, I tried to they could make him better is making it worse. I had exactly the same experience. The thing about it is he understood every scene he got it. I mean, that's the whole trick with with when you write something good. You hope that the director guests it and sometimes they do sometimes they don't. But in this case, he got every. Scene. And he I think he just saw I die with it. Film hero come out the year, the one with Dustin Hoffman and the plane crash and getting too much credit for it. And I love that you had these two films that are really, you know, in a world where we hear that. Hollywood producers always pushing for clear hill heroes in clear villains. You made these two movies about moral ambiguity. Well, the funny thing is I was hopeful that the script I'd written in nineteen Eighty-four called soldier was gonna come out that year 'cause there were some signs of it. I thought wow, all of written a western comedy and a sci-fi picture all of the same year. I have jeeze that'd be fun. But the soldier didn't come out many years later. And so on moral ambiguity in humor my writing partner. Now that the two of us is that's kind of what we like is ambiguous humor in some energy. About writing with your wife. One thing that you said about your own career before you wrote all your scripts together. A we knew talking about hero when you were talking about the character of Gena Davis in particular, you said that you felt like you hadn't yet then like quote unquote, gotten it about female characters, and I love the you're able to look at your own work with such like cleared. I find that so impressive. What I think? It's actually the number of years past a real old guy now, and I can see more clearly when I was a young and full of beans. I, you know, as I say all those things I say about unforgiving now. I wasn't thinking about what I wrote it. I just it just came out and looking back I can see now where it came from. But I wasn't thinking that way at the time. And we were talking before we do you on the phone here about gene Hackman's character? And do you think the way that he runs that town is the right way to run an old west town, or I was very much. Yes, I am. I think he was and I think he became less sympathetic win. The fact that Morgan Freeman was a black man, and he whipped a black man in in in our current society. I think most of those whole like guys were racist. So I hadn't intended to bring it out. I saw Gene Hackman as a police officer, which is to say he was trying to to minimize the violence. He couldn't stop violence, but he tried to minimize it. So I I didn't see him as a villain, but as a worthy opponent to this wild man way money. I saw him as a guy trying to do his job imperfectly perhaps. But he was trying to have less killing less violent as opposed to the alternative. Last week, Paul number really wrestling with the searchers, and I'd love to get your take on it. Well, it's ironic. I heard about it for years and didn't see it. So I saw way past it's time, and I didn't really get it. In other words, I saw the movie, but I didn't it didn't move me the way it was intended to. And I could see why people had liked it. But it it didn't get to me. I know one, of course, as he's favorite films. Everybody raves about it. And it's just one of those things where you either get it or you don't I didn't get it. So excited we've got to talk to you here as we go through this list, and we're such fans of this script. And we hope we get to chat with you again when we come time for Bladerunner. Absolutely. Do you have any more questions about forgiving that'll be helpful to your I'll be happy to respond. I I'm so lucky to have had Clinton Eastwood made that movie for the things that would have happened. I can only imagine. It's like one of those rare times where you have somebody just. Yeah. Just executing your vision. I mean, it's it's it's great. And you've you've had that his vision. I mean, that's really nobody else would have made that movie that way the way I wrote it, and he made it his way. And he is he is something else. I mean, he's a lot my characters that you see it as we'll be just walked right down the center mainstream. That's what he's doing. I mean, the studio doesn't mess with him, and nobody messes with him. And he knows what he's doing a hell of a story. Dive you've ever seen Bronco. Billy. It's one of the best comedies ever in that character. He plays Bronco. Billy is magical in the writing in is just spectacularly good that always comforted me. When when I knew that Clint Eastwood was going to make this. I thought there's a chance he'll make it as good as Bronco Billy. It was such a pleasure talking to you. And thanks so much for spending some time. Thanks. As I say anytime, they Thang everybody we have to take a brief break in the show to hear few words from our sponsors. And that's is black tux dot com. Fellas. 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Visit black tux dot com and enter the code unspoiled. That's a U S P O LED. That's unspoiled. That's black tux dot com. Code unspoiled. For twenty dollars off your purchase black tux, premium rental, suits tuxedos delivered to your door. What's kind of interesting to me is he a we talked about this actually last week with the John Wayne episode is the impossibility of ever pulling apart the John Wayne nece from the character. And that's definitely I think happening here in unforgiven. You know, the impossibility of pulling out not just Clint Eastwood guy who is in three huge westerns in nineteen sixty seven all at once that like made his career after he was on rawhide forever. He's actually wearing his rawhide boots in unforgiven still still got the boots, y'all. But you also I feel like there's so much the Eastwood from dirty Harry in here. And then there's like the kind of Sylvester Stallone arc of a guy who's been kicked around Hollywood for a long time failed finally making this good good. Good movie like Winstone had creed. And everybody wanted to be like you're back in like dying to give him this acclaim. So I we should talk about like where Clint Eastwood was win unforgiving him out. And why I think it got such a huge reception. He actually. Had recently done a movie that we talked about here on the show. He had just done that movie called white hunter black heart Houston that had just been a couple of years before he had recently made his fifth dirty Harry movie yet to be which is notable for a little clip. I want to play here. Just because it amuses me a devil is the one where you have very young baby. Jim Carey playing like a rockstar. I remember live six to a welcome to the jungle and Liam Neeson before he was famous please video director. I just wanna play tiny clip of that. Because this is where people this is how people thought of Glenis would this moment. The hell's that supposed to mean means director talent would have the guts to shoot something original stead are ripping off all movies like the exorcist rip off. It's coming. Oh, I remember this never knew that was Liam Niessen though. This is like my first introduction dirty. Harry was the deadpool for me as a kid. This is the best loved it. I love that was so cool. Awesome. Awesome. But it wasn't like I'm going to give east with acting us 'cause he was sort of a joke. I mean when Clint Eastwood swept the Oscars for unforgiven. He had not been to the Oscars since nineteen Seventy-three in you know, why for some? About this is Clint Eastwood in nineteen seventy three he was at the Oscars. He wasn't supposed to be a presenter. But Charlton Heston had a flat tire. So he got called up to help introduce grease the Oscars, and he bombed so bad that he was like, I'm not coming back the Oscars unless I'm nominated and he did not come back into he won. So Hurson was supposed to say something about something biblical here. Referring to him playing Moses says when I brought the tablets down from the mountains. He said be DeVille research staff assured me that they would be only ten commandments. So you'd these people were wrong. There are eleven commandments. Eleventh commandment comes from the federal communication system. So spoke commission. Thou shalt have full disclosure come on flip the card, man. This isn't my bag. I'll tell you. How awkward is that? Was bad at all. I think like I feel like he made like I've seen people bum. A key feels like he's owning it first of all the fact that there was no buddy going let's rewrite something for Clint Eastwood, they just gave him Charlton Heston lines. Like, I think that was like if I if I was to bomb like that. I would take that as a win. I mean, he's the audience is on inside. It's not like, it's not uncomfortable. I I don't know. I'm on his side on that. Oh, you was so bad that Charlton Heston ends up making it to the theater while he's still up there and just taking over from him at the podium. Clint Eastwood leaves in does not come back until he wins. Best picture. Well, I of the reason why Clinton's would never got nomination was because he said something like this. He goes I'd never been the running because first of all I'm not Jewish. Secondly, make too much money and Thirdly and most importantly because I don't give a fuck. It didn't seem like he was kissing that that will say this about Cleese Sonal though kissing anybody's asked. There's kind of this leg story behind the scenes about how good Clint Eastwood was at like playing this like double faced game with the press of with like, his whole persona. He's one of those people who has that mythology kind of Hackman like, oh, well, if you interview Clinton, it's such an honor. He doesn't like to talk to people, you know, he's a he's a lone man whenever he would give interviews like quotes about getting nominations. You'd like, well, we'll see what happens. I'm just here for the working the same thing. You always does. But behind the scenes Clint is a dude who would like call up critics. He liked and be like him in. That was really great in like butter up different. Critics us very tactical. He befriended all of these major critics in like the eighties nineties by like, you wrote me a good review. Why don't I fly you out to come here? And like this film festival. So he really had like laid the groundwork Bruin. He. Made a film that was at all good. And was it all seeming like it was questioning his mythology. They were like this men in the all rallied behind him. It was the story. They wanted to root for well. That's really that's a really interesting idea. Because Clint Eastwood in many respects is a person who garners a lot of respect for where they stand in Hollywood. I mean, the fact that he's eighty eight years old, and regardless of what you think of the mule is it's impressive that he is still making film. I mean films this year movie called the fifteen seventeen to there's where a bunch of kids like eat a bunch of July auto. Dishes for that. You did. I did. It's the July. And apparently I was too creamy. You know, he in many respects is like a Martin Scorsese Woody Allen, e regardless of what he Allen's issues of someone who is still being very creative into an older age and something that we don't really see that much in Hollywood going back to what you said about where he wasn't his career. I'm looking at his IMDB in. It's you're right. Like, we're looking at films like the dead pool pink Cadillac, another movie that I really enjoyed with Bernadette Peters white hundred blackheart the rookie, and then comes unforgiven, and then comes in the line of fire and a perfect world and bridges of Addison county. And then we go into you know, the million dollar baby. And granted, you know, it's like really changes everything. You know, what I think in an interesting way, you talked about this before we played that clip. He is commenting on his crew. This film not written for him to. It's not like, I think it spoke to him because in many respects, he was able not only to close the door on the western. But he was able to close the door on a certain part of his career. Here's actually Clint Eastwood talking about unforgiven, and we're kind of stands in the pantheon of westerns this story. It seem like was the one I wanted to tell at that particular time in my life. Yeah, it's great that the romanticism that Ford brought the hawks and all of them brought in the in the wonderful cattle drives in Red River. And in the great Anthony man westerns that Jimmy Stewart dead. But this one was was a chance to just put my stamp on what I felt about it in. Reality. Like, you say, it is it is a crock it it is a myth. And I think that that attitude then starts to you all of his choices going back to the family. You just talked about the where I was going to play gelato. You he casts real soldiers the people who are actually in the incident. I think you see this striving for the verite in tone. You know million dollar baby is a depressing movie. He goes darker. He goes more real he d- glamorizes the Hollywood film. I think I didn't see the mule. But it's like everything just kind of has like a little bit of a darker. Wait, like, it's not like the old dirty Harry version of many think everyone wants to see it. I think people thought like all grand jury. No, he's gonna go and to it. It's like it's like the dude bro version of we talked about with like Karen Kasama who director destroyer, and what Lynne Ramsay did in like you never really here. It's like adding a little bit of like a dramatic weight to it is, but it's like through his eyes and everything that we know of Clinton's. But I don't know. It's interesting that he I think is calling out the bullshit of of Hollywood like everything after his movies rejection of traditional Hollywood, it's true. And I will say like I one hundred percent do not feel. I'll guilty about taking the piss out of his films, but I do respect his discipline air and to me those are two separate channels of appreciation or criticism for what he does. I wonder how much of his de glamorization of the west comes from the fact that he was one of those people who was on John Wayne Speedo, we're John Wayne was like when he made win a Clinton aide, high plains drifter, John Wayne wrote him letter, and he was like that isn't what the west was about that isn't our American people who settled this country at I wonder if like there's a touch of clinics for being like, you can't tell me about America, you weren't even there either. Like, we're both just making this up. Well, and you know, what's great about Clint Eastwood is he subverts the tropes of the western right away in the beginning by creating the more violent western like, so John Wayne is doing these films where you can't show, you know, people getting shot on camera. He goes to Italy to work with Leoni Leoni doesn't know these rules. So he's showing bloody showing people get shot point blank range and Clint Eastwood's like I knew these rules, and I just didn't tell him because I thought it'd be more fun. So. Here. He is first subverting it in a way that we heard from John Wayne last week, you know, violence if it's not dignified. It's not good. So first of all he blows up the western just by like introducing violence, and then that character kind of carries over into Harry. And then he kinda wraps it all up at the end. You know, he kind of reinvents the western twice yell at I think would really surprise Sergio Leoni himself. It'd be like Leoni said this about Clint Eastwood he said that he has to expressions with or without ahead. That he would go forth in reshape the Jonah and reshape Dijon Ronan shape. The genera you I was playing his game. When I was rerouted and some of this movie. I was like, oh, I could imagine Kiana is giving this exact same line delivery for most of everything that Clint Eastwood does in the film, you know, because he doesn't tend to put any sort of emotion into his words, you just kind of corrects the volume a little bit, right? But that's also sort of who he is like, I mean, this is John wick again, we talk about the, you know, these these movies that are doing very well for us, the take ins and John wicks are plays on traditional western things in it. I would argue, you know, without the karate. There's a lot of similarities between John wick and William money, you know, to a certain degree. I just went to a guy who's living in this house. I'm done. I'm so done that I've buried my guns under something. Dad? Why? Yeah. No. I mean, don't I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff that you can see a direct line to to. But if you will forgive me, I do just want to play like at least a snippet of Clinton monologue to refresh ourselves as to how he gives lines in. Fame Ned Claudia. She's straight me up cleared me, drinking, whiskey and all. Just because we're going on this kill in that domain. I'm gonna go back to be in the way. I was. This need the money. Get a new store for them youngsters. Adrover shot through the mountainous teeth came out of I head. I think about him down again. He didn't do anything to deserve. It gets shot. At least nothing I can remember when I saw it up. I just feel like there's more depth and music ecology in any one of Morgan Freeman's groans than there is in this entire speech that he gives I'm not disagreeing with you. But I remember that monologue from the film before you played at like, I remember those specific. So it's it's really well written. He delivers it very plainly. But I think it speaks of something again going back to the films that he creates from here on forward. This is a beautiful movie. It's nowhere near as majestic as the searchers. The vistas are simple, but they are beautiful. And I feel like there's something about his performance style. That is saying there's nothing showy about him. Let's little Marlboro, man. I think a lot of the images near are, very marble, man. Add silhouetted cowboy orange sunset. Yeah. I mean, it is the quintessential macho stereotype if John Wayne was that to the sixties. I think that he is that to the seventies. And I would argue that you know, one of the things that we don't really have in the in. The odds are in the teams and the teams in the end and the arts is this new version of certain point. I think it's Harrison Ford, I think you can make a case, it's Chris Pratt. But Chris Pat has not the same kind of grow. Like, he's a man. Yeah. You think Yano is that guy a little bit? I think Kiana doesn't trust himself to a moat more. It is true. That like Clint his own characters are basically like how even as a director as the man in charge. Like, he doesn't go action. He just goes whenever you're ready. And let's talk about the fact that he's a very productive filmmaker this movie came in in thirty nine days. Right. He shot this movie under budget, and it came in under time he is just working hard out there, which I respect that. Because part of how Clint Eastwood has figured out how to be his own loan cow. Boy in Hollywood is every movie he makes us pretty cheap. And he does it fast. And he's not a pain in the us. So they're like go on you, basically make your money back every single time. You can do what you want. And I respect that. He has figured out a way to have freedom in restriction. I think that's really smart. I wonder because I'm not an actor like when I hear that it only does one or two takes for for a scene. I'd be like what if I really screwed it up. What if I could do better? Do I want to do more takes? And that's because I I don't know how it would be. Well, let's actually hear from one of the actors in the film. He played WW Boesch up. He's also just a veteran actor who's been in so many fantastic films, including true a Manson family, man. And most recently the last tycoon the TV series about Louis b Mayer of please, welcome Saul. Ruben. No salt. I wanted to ask you first of all thank you for being here. I just wanted to ask you a little bit about this movie. What was via addition process like for this film, there some things about this project there were very unusual in my career, and they remained. So even though this was twenty six years ago when I got the role I was an early version of self tape. I had a camera. I do self tape dishing it was working on mantra trouble, Jack Nicholson at the time. And he knew Clinton he said here, you're gonna you know addition for Clinton for a new movie, I as do more than required. I know right. Okay. Thanks for the advice. But one must have you ever had to audition for anything two years ago? You know, I think I know more about the new is very funny. But I did take advice that I did more than was required for that. Addition. You can go into a casting office. You know, what fluorescent light and having ten minutes, and they have to be done. I did my own tape. I was cast very very quickly. And I remember being flowed out to LA to meet for costume fitting and getting fitted for cowboy boots, which was first for me, kind of exciting still have those bits a while. They were fitted for me, and it was really kind of exciting. I met Clinton for the first time. Which was also very exciting. Am I said, listen, I gotta ask you. I mean as far as I know you don't meet actors everybody is on tape. He said, yeah. I said why you're an actor yourself. I mean, why wouldn't you wanna meet actors? Sweetest thing. He said, I just I just be terrible. It saying no to people. And so, you know, the person I met who I was expecting to me. It was a cop. Right. But who I met had the soul of a jazz musician. Really, I think a much as if you know, you know, I really met somebody who was a collaborator. And and really by you know, how much of a collaborator. You know? There's this myth about Clint Eastwood being said, there's always a story of place. It'd be like he only does to take. No, there was no direction of actors, and I'll give you an example of this. You know, we had a base camp. You couldn't get up to the town. You couldn't go up to ten less. You went by horse or or walked or went by wagon had to be offensive. They didn't want tire tracks or anything like that up in the town. So the base camp was below the hill. And then you walked up the hill to where the town was built. And one of the first things that happened to me was I said, listen, I I wanna talk to you before we before we shoot about the character. And he said I said, you know, I don't have any lines at the beginning. I'm just traveling within which Bob, but the way it's written in the script Bill. Lisa stage directions are that. I'm very very very nervous. Kind of you know character. He said am I said, I don't I don't think. That's right. My demeanor should be very cocky, you know, I don't know. Fuck all about the west. And I'm with a gunslinger who I'm writing about. And I should know. Fuck also, you see a major contrast with guns pointed at me, you know. And he said. And and you're telling me all this because. Because you're the director, and I. Asking if it's okay with you, if I change what seems to be rather than stage directions. And he said, oh, let me make this clearly you'll get to know me, you're in charge all of the department called WW bocce up. If I knew how to play this role. I probably wouldn't need to hire. You let me put this way when we're shooting if you do something, I don't understand. I'll be sure to let you know. There's a lot of miss about. Clint the director or maybe the true like that. He is a guy who takes like one take two takes his very clique. In fact, there was a couple. There was one very particular incident, and it has to do with directing actors that I'd never before seen and haven't seen since we're in the shootout scene in the bar at the end. Right. And the camera is on sticks behind clinched shotgun and him, and it's on it's on Gene Hackman is a sheriff. And and do you have those about to be shot, and he says? After you know, he should be shoot them down. Like the dog that he has to his deputies. What are some align writing like that? And the next thing that happens is that Clinton pulls the trigger and the next thing that happens is it clicks, it doesn't shoot cartridge and gene Hackman's line is misfire Kelsen of a bitch or should have bitch or something like that. Right. Misfire Kelsen center bitch at that point. It was a cut 'cause now we were gonna shoot a lot of different action stuff. Right. So that was on Gene Hackman over over claims barrel, and and he clicks and misfire kilson bitch. Okay. Cut. Gene. I wonder I know working together for six seven eight weeks. And I doubt if he directed him once. So if that's gene, I wonder if you'd mind penny yourself balloon standing on your head and spending nNcholas he probably would have done it. Right. You know because because he did encourage you. And he I mean, he might have said he didn't understand something. But I really specifically directing actors in certain way to act certain win ever saw. So here he is about to give genie direction. You could've heard a pin drop. You said. Just side like that. And gene went what anything what they said. Kinda would like to get my scissors in there that was the phrase, and I understood it, and gene understood it any what he meant. And gene did he said, oh, I get it you want. You wanna be he wanted his he wanted to edit point. And he wanted a beat. It went click, and then gene was ran on top of that click thing misfire kill the son of a bitch. And you wanted to beat before that, right? Jean said, no problem. You wanna be put nodded if it's? Okay. So do it again. Then they usually there's misinformation about Clint Eastwood to take Clint, it's not the only shoots to takes two. Good takes right to good takes one Goodwin in an alternate. That's good. Then he'll move on. He doesn't wanna jerk off and do many different versions of it. And now we're doing pick three. And he and he does it again because he's asked Jean to do that. And as soon as he collects, gene goes misfire shit. Damn sorry Clinton. I'll get next time. And we do it again. And again, gene immediately said misfire fuck, right? And I remember at that point considered. Wait, hang on. I everybody take ten minutes or so I got I think something here. Is there anything I can do now, gene? It's not really your problem here. Let me just figure some and I stuck around. I watched what he did was add them take the camera off the sticks and put it on a short three foot track. And he spoke to the Dolly grip about when presumably I thought when to move the camera when to move the thing, I'm a little short foot. Little short move. Everybody got called back in. And gene, of course, immediately saw that the camera was now on a Dolly. On track right and three foot track. He just looked at it. It looked up at couldn't said Clinton said. Yeah. Just do what comes naturally to. Okay. And as soon as he clicked a barrel. There was a quick push in from the Dolly grip, right? Gene was a film actor, and he knew enough to wait. And he saw it was short-track, and he knew to wait that beat. It's a camera finished its movement, which took about a second and a half. Right. Maybe less, and then he said line. Okay. So what's the lesson here? The lesson is that a director changed his shot in order to accommodate the instincts of an actor. Pretty thing. I had not seen before and have rarely seen since I heard one story. And I don't know if you remember this at all, but I guess the day that Gene Hackman had come in. He had sat down or having dinner with Clint Eastwood. And they're like, oh, yeah. We're gonna shoot this scene. Just to get your feet wet. And then they found out I was going to rain, and we shot the scene in the jail with me and him, and and the scene with human him in me, and Richard Harris that huge scene. Yeah. Was weather cover. So that was bright out of the gate. You guys all we're kind of thrown right into the into the fire. Oh, yeah. He any shot rehearsal. As I recall what I think the master is the rehearsal. I mean, the me coming up the idea of me coming up with that gun. Breaking can tell you me putting the gun in the position that I put it in and leaning away from it and holding the gun out. That was during the take that I came up with that. That's really I mean, it's amazing. I think what happened in the scene, and and he liked that like a jazz musician would he likes mistakes he likes things to happen? Like, some people like I hear I don't know. This is true. But I understand that Bob Dylan's recording sessions or like that that doesn't wanna do to me takes Alexa mirrors and like things to happen accidentally and kind of had that jazz musicians feel for it at least he doing this movie. And and that that was whether cover. Thank you so much for talking today. We really appreciate your pleasure and was such a fan. And thank you so much. This episode of unspoiled is brought to you by our home as at focus on a new podcast by focus features. You know, focus features because they make some of the absolute best movies that exist right now. They're great. They make really smart intelligent high end dramas. They are people who hit home runs over and over and over again, and what they are doing. Now is that they have launched a new podcast called focus on where they're going to talk about the stories behind the phone the films that they're making. They recently have new Ruth Bader Ginsburg film. That's out. Yes. Called on the basis of sex into what they're doing is. They're going to do they're doing a whole episode of focus on about the stories of that looking at our men and women equal in the eyes of constant of the constitution and really getting to the truth of the stories behind their film. I love this idea because I think a lot of times you see these films that are based in some sort of historical truth. 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This movie is ranked number sixty eight on the new list, but it was ninety eight on the original. Af Islas kind of doing the same thing that we saw with the searchers something that in the originalist. It's moved up a lot. I believe that sixty eight is about right. I think this movie does feel important to me. Do you disagree? Yeah. I mean, I think and then I am running into that same issue of we're putting in some versions of the John rea- and not the John rea- because one thing I didn't notice an actually flubbed on this. Amir talking about the searchers is I just assumed that stage coach was on our af I list because it was on the original list. And because it's freaking stagecoach stagecoach is not on the list anymore. So I thought we were going to watch like a real classic purist. Not not Hugh AC not communist any subtext, western. And we aren't like we basically have a list that's mostly Saverne. Zhen's? And I think this film is oh, I think just from was fine. Like everybody, really really loves this movie. I'm not going to say that belongs on the hundred best films of all time. I could live at it. So so far, you would put stage coach over every film that we watched high noon, the searchers and unforgiving every western. I should say a not as familiar with the genre of westerns that. I can definitively say, you know, what western belongs. But I will say this movie has some amazing performances. And I think it does a really great job of being incredibly entertaining. Making a statement about something that is universal, you know, which is violence, and I think it was done in a time where to certain extent where commenting on the LA riots. I think were commenting on violence in cinema, and it does. So an a graceful way that doesn't feel over the top and you can walk away. Like you. You did going like I kinda rooting for Gene Hackman, you know, and I can come wind going. I'm rooting for clinics. You know, someone else and come away and go like, yeah. France Fisher was right. Like, we you can pick who you like that really works for me. You know, sixty eight right now, I'm not arguing it. I I I like it at sixty eight. Yeah. I mean, what's interesting is what's on people's minds when it comes out when they get best picture is that nineteen Ninety-two had just been named the year of the woman was actually really fascinating because we're basically living in the exact same parallel moment. You know, ninety one was NET hill. Ninety two was the of the woman because it was this year that suddenly like a record number of women were elected to the house forty seven to the house and the Senate went from having to women having six women including Feinstein, so everybody was like nineteen ninety two year of the woman. I think they're putting in context that this is a movie where the women put the film into motion, and even Clint Eastwood himself acknowledged it. Right. When he went up and got his best picture statue. In the year of the woman. The greatest woman on the planet does here tonight. That's my mother Ruth. By the way, part of the reason he gave his mother with the shadow is because he had put her in like a big heavy dress admit or walk around as an extra. And then he cut her out of the film. He didn't want to think that woman who read the script for him though. She did not get anything. Though, they were dating she I think is pregnant at this Oscars with Francesca Fisher. So in the year the woman, we have kind of a traditional thing the hell would does which is a direct revolt against it. I mean, this is not a film that should be anywhere near the year. The woman I think that Francis Fisher's character is a very strong woman. And I think I really liked her performance. But it's you know, she really is the only woman who speaks in this film. I mean, I liked that it Susan's my head that Gene Hackman who I do believe is the good guy ish in the movie ish ish ish as visor is good as there is no good. Everybody is great. I do like that. I also kind of hate him for for thinking that women are horses. And I'm with Francis Fisher when she screams this just because we let them smelly. Fools rod as like horses. Don't mean, we gotta let him Brandis lack horses. Maybe we ain't nothing but horse, but we five God we eight horses. You know? You know, maybe not the most uplifting maximum for the year of women. But I respect her character a lot in here, by the way, somebody came to the set, you know, sort of just observing and they noticed that like Clint Eastwood was hanging out with Francis anytime to call her bad Francis. Like that was his living name for her in in front of this journalist. He told her not to drink this milk that she was holding in front of her because then she become big bad friend. I'm just saying that happened. You know, we talked a little bit earlier about the kind of rivalry between John Wayne and Clint Eastwood, and you know, even the fact that John Wayne called Clint Eastwood, do you think that calling that Richard Harris character who is a real essentially buffoon? But you know, it was kind of a dig at John Wayne because John Wayne was the Duke. And then that is the Duke of death is is there like maybe a little subtle like fuck, you can't be an accident. Right. Right. Well, let me ask you this. Do you think it's an accident that Clint Eastwood's character's name, William, gene? Hackman's name is Bill which is also William. Oh, yeah. The same name. It's like the Martha of nineteen ninety two. I don't know what that means. But I do like something. Yeah. Tell us. What have we put having? We got. I mean. And now, let's hear maybe from some people who didn't want to get behind a Clint Eastwood on this big comeback trainee or any negative reviews of this film. Most people really really really liked this film, maybe because clients called on if they didn't the here's one from Hal Hinson of the Washington Post. A prominent New York critic wants declared Clint Eastwood, quote, the last serious man in Hollywood and Eastwood must have remembered it too because his new western unforgiven is the kind of movie you make when you start to take this kind of praise to heart. He goes on to kind of question, this whole redemption ark that money goes on because like money says acting as though it's Charles Manson coming out of retirement, but that really all we ever get in. This film is like his word for it. And you don't really see anything, but it doesn't actually feel proven these. If Eastwood had any emotional depth as an actor the characters anguish might come through. But Eastwood has little more than a paint by numbers approach to acting in. Nephews Eastwood has said that perhaps this movie is the last in which he will appear as an actor. And it wouldn't be a mad away from the ballot. Eastwood is a serious, man. All right, but unfortunately, seriousness without an equal portion of talent is a mixed blessing who that's a pretty rough review. But I did think about something when you read that which was like, I wonder if it wasn't Clint Eastwood if this movie is as good, I think it actually would be though. I mean, I think this movie co starred like Kurt Russell or something right? Who would be old enough to if this movie starred why did you do it right now if you're new right now, I mean because Kurt Russell just did his western news fantastic in that than Quintin. The movie I thought I think that it would not get any awards that they would not nearly get this many awards. I think we're always excited when the guy who was making like movies with a rantings is like, I am intelligent, right. Okay. So he was like in that review. Helen's and his basically saying that in that it whole interview cycle. Eastwood was. Pulling the Stallone of like, oh, I'm not gonna do this again. I'll never do this again. Oh, it's my final bow. Oh, no, really. And that was nineteen ninety two. He's having orgies and films today. Well, I don't know. Let's see if it's the first time if you're listening to the podcast, and is the first time he saw the film, and you're familiar with. Clint Eastwood is a little bit less. Did you do you feel like this movie worked for you? I'm curious to see what people's response will be about that. Because I really it really worked for me. I don't know. This this watch really connected, Amy. Is there? Simpson's. No. There is. No, how couldn't find a Simpson's. I did find a Simpsons that references Clint Eastwood himself, but it's like going back to his Leoni westerns. I think it actually is an interesting fit with everything we talked about in this episode because to set the stage whom are in Bart and Marge and Lisa are watching a western and Bart and Homer are hoping for like a violent western in Lisa in March. Or like totally enchanted that it's a musical. And the boys are bummed out that they're not getting the violent western they have promise. Pain. It good. We ain't bragging we're going code, Dan. Singing singing, March take killing each other guns. Are right there. You comes lemur. I did us pull for you, Paul. This is my own special torture. I am a tortures maniac. Wrapping is a wrapping Clint Eastwood. Oh. Girl moves Jagger grass faster than a PU PU platter in the gym which bring oh perfected kiss should spend more time matching your voice up to your love. Wiz Bruce foot. Make my ipod little oh stop stops. A Bruce Lee versus Clinton would. Rap battles of history. Oh, no. No. No. No. No, no more rap battles. I don't wanna see it. All right, rather subtle things with a rap battle than a gun. Yes. That was a traditional rat does. Terrible. Terrible. Amy. Should we roll the die? We shed. We got us a low on number ninety five. What's that? All right. Let's see just four above Ben Hur. Oh, the last picture show, which is a movie I've never seen this a classic American film. I don't even really know what it's about. Well, then that is a perfect setup for we should do another Colin of what is it about? I love this idea. You can give us a call at seven four seven six six six five eight two four that seven four seven six six six five eight two four with your answer. What is the last picture show about is it a hard? Is it a romance? I don't even know we'll figure it all out together. And we will see you next week four the last picture show. Hi, I'm Paul f Tompkins my podcast Montaigne. Asian is wrapping up at two hundred and that final show will drop on Monday. January twenty first we'll have one of our favorite guests in for an interview and an extra long improv set featuring an expanded lineup of spontaneous Asian all stars. Whether you've been a fan from day one or you've never even heard the show before I hope you'll listen to this very special episode happy new year.