Lost: Down the Hatch | Season 3 Episode 19: The Brig
Support for this podcast comes from we work. Today takes new ways of working new measures toward health and safety flexible terms to scale up and down convenience spaces designed for focus and collaboration. It we work to take your business where you want it to go we work. That's tomorrow works. Visit we work dot com slash tomorrow. John boy you got three seconds to open start. You're not gonna shoot anyone. James one true if there were any bullets in a gun. Why would you hold a knife to my throat. Six point phone sixty six lost is over. We gotta go back down the hatch. It's the lost rewatch podcasts. Here on post show talk and season three episode. Nineteen the brig and. I'm the big joined here by mike. La my name is mike bloom to my name's the wig to. I'm also the way you look at josh. Holloway's hair this episode. You might be saying that he is also the way to know. Come on. He looks great. Is that maybe cate. Could've should have given him a little bit of that season two as haircut but what an episode for aids board. What an episode for. John locke episode. Josh i mean we we have been telling this for weeks for months arguably for years about this extremely impressive streak of episodes barreling down to the end of season three and a little nervous going into the rewatch being over hyped like did it. Did i hype. Did we hype it up too much and at least the beginning of this streak is incredible so i was just talking off line before we came on here that obviously i'm always pump beyond belief to come on and talk about this with you josh. This is one of the first episodes in a while. We're like if finished and there was so much kinetic energy behind basically every single second of this episode. That i'm like i need to talk about this right now. I felt the same exact way. I was just like brimming with excitement. As soon as i finished. It totally lived up to that four point. Two billing no surprise for me. It's going to be a perfect four point to the brig. I assume it's the same for you. Mike burs and and it. It absolutely hit that hype and if anything it. Eight got higher. Like i obviously so hyped on loss because we're doing this each and every week into been so much fun. It's one of those things where a year and a half into talking about lost each and every week mike. I haven't lost any enthusiasm for it if anything. We are just like gaining momentum now as the show itself in the story line is gaining momentum and i know it's hyperbolic and i don't actually mean it. It's just like what i felt. When i was done watching the brig my feeling watching the brig this week at the end of it was like man. We just watched the best episode of lost. And i know. I know that that's not true but but i do think it is it is. It is such a good episode of the show. It is a perfect episode of the show for me. And i think it does something incredibly meaningful and both like primal and obvious but also subtle in many ways specifically with the sawyer character but also with john locke it is such a satisfying ending to up to this point one of the longest running mysteries and character details about both of these men. And i know that there's literally the question of like. Is this too obvious to obvious. That anthony cooper is sawyers. Dad is too obvious that when lack of saying got been that. It's obviously anthony. Cooper this question from from from down services wise anthony cooper being the real sawyer a twist versus being just predictable down several also wrote in and said is to show trying to trick us into thinking ben could be the real sawyer after lock till sword that he'll kill ben after hugh here's what he has to say or is it or are we supposed to believe that and like for for me. None of that really matters because like like there are so many ways to to read this episode when you when you know what john locke is actually planning that he that he doesn't have been in the brig he's got anthony cooper in the brig the interactions between john sawyer or so meaningful both in terms of themselves individually. But i actually think importantly really meaningful for their continued relationship on the show. And i mean that both in terms of the relationship between sawyer and locke but also the relationship between sawyer and locke figure. I think this is an important episode for a lot of what ends up happening with. James ford specifically on this show and that was not take that i came into this with an necessarily so i was excited to get kind of like a new. Take watching the brig. I'm so exhilarating performances in this one. I love this episode so-so so much i think we're going to have a really thematically rich episode of loss to talk about here today and it's going to be a blast this episode true to it being a lock episode in the central man himself. It's very special in a number of ways first off. I'd be hard pressed at least at this moment to think of an episode. That's not like a big episode finale. That advanced not one. But two major characters storylines so prominently in one singular installment. This is a gigantic episode for both the john locke arc and the james ford are right the these are both facing their past demons and exercising them granted. That demon happens to be the same man evidently but when we talk about the rx of these characters these are seminal moments for both of them. And i would be pressed to think of another episode at least ones that have come before us where it has been like equally massively important to characters at once usually obviously the the brunt of the character who's getting the flashback. Episode is going to be the one that has the big piece moving forward. Tough storylines to it. And there's some argument there is well. I know amongst the listeners. The hatchlings of okay. This is a lock episode. This has been a sawyer episode. Saw every man for himself. And i don't think they were building out the sawyer stuff that much there. There's that mike another another thing. That and i feel like there have been moments where i have moments where i have felt that way to where i felt. Like this is such a big deal for sawyer that shouldn't be a sawyer. Flashback and. I don't know that i've ever felt more strongly in opposition to that position Than i do right now that i think it is absolutely the right choice to center this on john locke to not give sawyer. Flashback because i think we know the stakes of sawyer at this point on and i think that one of the magic tricks of this episode and why this is such a pivotal moment in sawyers evolution as a character is think about who's sawyer has been recently so here's the dude who drank beers with with the gang and drove the van in the woods. So here's the guy who played inspector clue so with gang during russo. Who is handling her own. Box of dynamite. The sawyers the one who lost ping pong competitions sawyer is the one who almost got voted out tribal council and has been anointed leader. Sawyer has found love sawyers in a relationship sawyer is getting to play casual ping pong with jack. This is sawyer has had some moments on the island already that he has greatly enjoyed but that has been typically at the expense of other people. This is sawyer has been part of crew. Sawyer is not just part of the crew. He's a leader within the crew. He's well loved in the group right now. It's like back to where he was at the start of season to accept like he's he's like i don't know if he's thinking about it a lot whether he liked deserves this or not. He's not actively like like was when he came back with tales of people. People shouldn't be treating me like this. And i think in sort of a similar way like i have talked about how like if there's value in stranger in a strange land it's like helping to reinforce the idea that jack could be in such dire way for the for through the looking glass that you could believe that that happened in the past. I think the fact that we haven't had a flashback from sawyer. For as long as we've had probably helps deceive the casuals people weren't doing like the mega theorizing and hadn't connected yet. Oh shit lock is locks. Dad is the original sawyer. Interesting point as well. I would love to hear from hatchlings because obviously people have come onto the show in different regards. But i would love to hear if you what did you know especially if you were not vociferously looking at each and everything like the rest of us doing at the time. Did you put the mental math together in your own head. That anthony cooper was the oj sawyer before this episode right. So i would. I would love to know. Because i'm sure that there are tons of we. Were talking about this show all these years later. So we're the diehards still right like we're very into it but there are also people who still listen to this podcast. Even but certainly at the time of the show weren't going on on message. Boards weren't doing the theorizing with their friends didn't piece together. That locks dad was probably sawyer. Maybe didn't put it together and again. I still don't think it really matters that much the fact that you're walking into this episode and you haven't thought a lot about sawyers grudge that you haven't thought of lot about this engine. That was humming sawyers for so long because sawyers not thinking about it right now either sawyers thinking about how good life is sawyers enjoying life right now in a fairly authentic way he just gave pork to the pregnant lady. Bird just clear it is now your mystic. He literally did it. He gave her played a big. You know there's there's you know he's been having a good time and people are accepting him and he doesn't have to think too hard about it. He's able to like have a relationship with kate and still be able to play table tennis with jack. Like he's he's having a great time and then this comes back and he gets sideswiped and he gets his vengeance but it does not look at all. like he fantasized. What if fantasize was gunning down frank duct that would serve like his big action. Movie with the epic letter. Read with everything goes so wrong. He's so unprepared for it. Goes terribly it makes him literally sick. And i think that this is a pivotal moment for this character. Transformation in for it to happen at a time where he is at his best. He gets sucked back into the abyss. And i think that this is like this is a moment. And why i say it's really powerful for the relationship between sawyer and at least a lock tight is that lock brings sawyer back into the abyss here thinking that like it's going to be good for james and i think ultimately in a way it ends up being good for james because this is like dr- this is like a dry run towards like. How do you react in the face of the abyss because sawyer is going to be here again when juliet is dead so is going to be here again in that final season when he is going to be groomed to be part of the bad guy squad and he is going to be at that point having gone through everything else that he goes through knowing like. No this shit's rotten. And i gotta figure out a way to save some of these people here get myself out of here too because i don't deserve to be just like brought down all the way to the bottom so this and that's with him in the man in black so a lock. I just think there's there's so much for this to happen now. It sideswipes not just the audience that this isn't a sawyer. Flashback because i think that telegraphs it to a degree but also side swipe sawyer and that is so much more important. I think the way in which this broad swipes sawyer is it. It's it really and translates to us in that performance in those two scenes right like on both sides of the commercial break of of james anthony cooper together. I think it's so rich it doesn't need to be a sawyer. Flashback episode because so much history is already imbued in the present its spectacular. I could i could. I could wax poetic about it for hours. We we will well. And so on that respect though i do think this is an extremely important lock episode especially looking ahead to who lock is going to be. Because i know we've seen some comments of like. Oh i don't ali. I was not into the flashbacks. As i remember but i feel like it's actually a almost the a really well done mystery where i do think you know. We'll get into a later. But the way they opened with him with lock reading this mysterious file and tossing it by the fire while data's eight breath exactly. That's that's a fun little media resmo must be like how the hell did we get here. The looking ahead to john is going to be with regards to ben linus with regards to richard alpert with regards to the others. This is also a seminal moment for this guy because this shows how we're going to kind of have a bit of a lock problem as jack said in exodus for season four and i do feel like we talked about how further instructions was a bit. How john lott group back. This is where he found his conviction and his journey again. Because this is something for him to specifically the idea that he was able to not necessarily con sawyer but lead someone into doing something as you know just immoral as murder and maybe justify murder from a certain perspective. But i feel like that paves the way for stuff that john locke is going to do. Maybe in season four but definitely in a man who's going to have john locks body coming down the line. I feel like this is a huge setup for what this character can be capable of and particularly how he might serve as that sort of foil to china's essentially you know richard alpert painted as he essentially got locked out here to sort of prove to the others. How this guy that everyone thinks special is really not at all. He's right now. He's castigated he's neutered and lock say like no no. I've got balls. I'm just not going to be the one to do it. But don't worry. I'm gonna take the credit for it. It's a huge huge episode. For this character. I will also mention i would also just interject to say that like i actually and maybe i hadn't thought this way before but i certainly feel it now. That lock absolutely kills anthony cooper. He doesn't stab him. He doesn't shoot him but he he unleashes a weapon on anthony cooper he murders this guy he is murder weapon is a man and his name is james sport. Yeah i wonder as well. As the development of lock's character we'll talk about obviously his inability to be the one to wield the knife himself but he's sort of again in the form of a you know the guy that's going to become. John locke later on he'll find a loophole of brian. I cannot do this. But i know what i can do from that perspective. Something interesting like the show grooming us to be ready for that. Yeah exactly so. I think it's really fascinating in the long run. Something else that. I found you one of the other reasons why this episode has always been so magnetic and hewlett. Magneto perhaps is that this apparently is one of only two lost episodes to not introduce any new characters whether it be in flashback or a rando on the island these are all characters that we know that we have seen in some capacity before. And that's only one out of two episodes out of one hundred plus in this entire show and that says something because one of the other reasons why even at the time i adored the crap out of the brig is because this is an episode josh. That was two plus years in the making ever. Since we heard that letter read by kate in confidence man we knew what sorters eventual mitchum is going to be to your point. He said he did. Advocate during outlaws. Where you could tell. He was still focused on that. He decided to to let it go in favor of a lot of stuff. But this is really the culmination of this characters. Entire arc. so foreign to your point we've seen other sides of sawyer but it really has all come back to this thing the central conflict that has literally made him the man that he was and it is so exciting to watch him shed that skin in the most guttural brutal way possible. Because i came through this episode. Josh afterwards being like what is going to happen to sawyer next. Is he going to go back to the mirror that he was or is he much like lock seems to be using this as an opportunity to shed his cocoon right. Read those wings and fly somewhere else. I think one of the things that this episode kicks us off on in something that we can talk about as far as it relates to other characters and as it relates to sawyer. Is this the idea that like once the batman is gone. Everything will be okay right sort of that trope of like once. The boogeyman is dead. I'll be free know. This one thing changes my life is going to be perfect from now on and that is never the case. There are demons everywhere. It doesn't matter. If you kill king demon. That doesn't stop the rest of the demons and you have to continue living your life prepared for that stuff you have to pivot. The moment occurs. All of that is baked into the beautiful tragic condition of being a human being. And i think that this is that that is very much at the heart of this show. It's very much at the heart of the idea of the flashbacks for these people and kind of investigating. What does that mean for each person. Like for saieed right. It's going to be like everything is going to be better. The second i find nadia maybe maybe not for desmond. Second that reunite with penny. Well they have no or even jack everything is is. He spends an entire season. I'm going to get everyone off this when he does. He comes to regret it. And so i think that we're getting that really regaining. That really in a big way. Maybe not for the first time ever. But we're getting that in a bit of an early version of this is boon releasing himself from shannon but now we're shedding sawyer of the crux of sawyer. And like who are you now. How are you going to deal with adversity after the major adversary is dead. After you've defeated it was that a victory. Is it worse than you thought. Who does that turn you into. And that is such a big question at the you know this is this is a show about all of these. Lost people not just like physically lost on an island also lost within their own lives. And you think that if you just find the one thing then you're going to be saved and everything's gonna be okay. Well maybe not maybe not necessarily and i think to start getting into that question through sawyer through this episode. It's gonna make that character really exciting. I think a lot of that gets Is is going to be like. What's fuelling him for the for the rest of his time on the show. He's a different character from this moment. Forward it's activated him in a really really important and profound way and it's just it's so it's so good it's just it this this this title card absolutely lived up to the billing for me here with with the break. This we get rid of frigging anthony cooper. Who's the worst he is. But he's also kevin tighe is so good so face punching fantastic. Going gonna get every single. Lv boy available today. No question about it. I'm so excited to dress down this character as well because we also need to look at his psychology in that if he does legitimately believe that he has died and gone to hell and his quote unquote like coming to face with his sins. The regard or lack thereof in which he faces. This idea of an afterlife is a fantastic fascinating character dissemination. That's gonna end up being his last moments of life. Yes and so powerful in the face of the theme of life and death. And i'm not talking about the music talking about the idea that is so central to loss in the fact that that is so fun of mind in the conversation in this episode right like forget the we were dead the whole time they were dead the whole time it was bergen tori all along like screw all of that. I think i think if anything. I think the undercurrent of like it's almost like living in the age of alternative realities that lakeside and everybody went side tells hurley at one point when roy. What about what. She said about the fact that they've found our bar playing. And it was built with audi y es sayed says like one problem at a time. I knew this idea of like second guessing yourself like am i. Alive is any of this real. I think that like brimming underneath the surface of these active conversations. That that cooper is having with sawyer a little hot for heaven all of that and coming from a man who is not the devil. But it's definitely a demon on his trip to hell. It's like this was the man who lived his life that way. This is the man who when he says. I don't believe in hell. I don't i don't care and then you get there and the way he's acting like well. I guess it makes sense exam idea throwing yourself like forgive me. I can't believe ideas like yep. I'm fine with the home. That i made and here i will stay. I drank a lot of whiskey. I made a lot of money in here. I am and i guess that makes sense like to have that character and have that. Be such like an exaggerated bad guy version of where sawyer could have gone in his life. I dig spectacular. This is also not to say this is like the big. Richard alpert breakout episode. Yeah that i think is a lot to talk about. With richard alpert and his relationship with john locke and one scene that we're going to get with them on the hill and perspectively his relationship with ben as well. Even though they don't share scenes. Richard does here is a huge. Yes marker about you. Know how jacob in particular views ben in this moment that will culminate obviously in the about. How jacob feels about ben. But certainly how richard feels about about. Ben jacobs attitude was like yeah. Well thanks for keeping me informed. I'm just keep me posted on how it still going. And let's just see how plays out like he seems like somebody who has less of an opinion and richard alpert being the emissary definitely has opinions exactly and like i think. His opinion is really showing in this episode. I totally agree on that point. But let's also talk about how this is a big episode for benjamin linus and let's also talk about how this is a big episode for john watkin benjamin lines and then let's talk about how nixed week is going to continue off stuff that you're getting into flashback here so i loved that this is john locke especially and especially coming off of the man from tallahassee as well like that was a giant yes then in lock episode and this is just continuing that plot into like you said the one two punch cruelty or like one two shot i suppose of this and next episode of really these two combatants just fiercely butting heads against each other in one getting one over on the other one. It's it's weird that we take a break between ed installments. One and two but especially going back to the events right after the man from tallahassee. It's back to the futures parts. Two and three were like a year apart. Today have read. Yeah eric stoltz is. John locke and like i think like tallahassee brig to the man behind the curtain literally having it be the man from tallahassee through the man behind the curtain we are in within this arc. That we've been hyping for a long time that we're in the best stretch of episodes that lost ever has maybe not the best episodes of loss but definitely the best. Stretch that i. It's no coincidence that we go from the man from tallahassee to the brig the man behind the trilogy. It's the man troje the man show and i and i think it's i think it's brilliant. We're going to be able to like bounce these themes on into next week. Mike this is going to be not just banner episodes for the show. But i think that this is going to be some of the most fun that we've had on the podcasts evidenced by the fact that we're like we're like a half hour in we haven't started saying you know there's just so much here and i've been so eager to talk about it and ever since stopped the episode. I'm so happy that we're here. I hope that you're all strapped in for ride because clearly this one's going to be a long one with that said how about we take a minute to to support the support for this. Podcast comes from pluto. Tv need an escape dropping. The blue tv for a world of free tv stream hundreds of channels and thousands of movies and shows all for free. Yeah free no. Subscriptions no fees imagine twenty four seven channels of narcos. Csi star trek survivor and everything else from hit movies to binge tv shows. The latest news live sports comedy and more. What are you waiting for. Download the free fluid tv app android iphone roku tv and start streaming now pluto tv. Drop in watch free. Don't worry polluted. Tv is not calling you. Like any anthony cooper type. This is the real deal. No kidneys necessary. No nobody's necessary but if you got them keep them all right. Let's drop into the jungle. Let's go forth into the jungle. Talk about the brig the seventh ever. John locke flashback. That thing i'll say about the fact that this is all on island as written by lindelof accused. Mike is that is this the first time other than maternity leave. An expose emmy exposes. Already done this. But i think one of the things that i like about this being an all island flashback for lock is because we're talking about how this is a turning point for sawyer clearly. It's a turning point episode for lock as well and we're going to get gosh. What's it called cabin fever next ryan. And then that's and that's going to be the very next sean lot. It's interesting thinking about like really on the back. Half of john locke flashback episodes. After we're in the we're in the homestretch for john locks like active participation on the show. Yeah we're actually. We're we're closer to that than you think because season four is shorter because next week is the last. We see of until two scenes in the finale of season. Three and then you've got shorter season. Four and season five. You know the the life and death of jeremy bentham happens halfway through and so we see lock a lot in season five but it depends on you know. It's not him at a certain point. So we're closing in on that stuff so it's really important for for that and i think this idea of like john locke's special. You are meant for something. The fact that he's getting an episode like this where we're getting to fill in the gaps of his journey and that like his. You know this is going to be an episode where anything that happened to him in his life before all of this john locke at least and you really get the sense of it by the very end of the episode when he's literally putting his dad his father's dead weight on his back literally carrying his family on his back the man who broke his back now dead on his unbroken back on walking forward that you get the sense that for locked in this moment in time everything that ever happened to him before no longer matters so i think for this episode to be an episode. That's very present. That is only dealing with the very recent past in terms of what we are. Visually seeing is a really really excellent and intelligent story structure choice. Yeah and to that point. I mean we'll get to it several weeks from now. It almost a weekends in hindsight the cabin fever of it because all be honest if this was the final john law quote unquote. flashback proper. I would be happy because we finish off with with man from tallahassee right. We finally found out how he got in the wheelchair. And if our flashbacks with john locke ended with that proper you're right. The symbolism is there of him shedding. That person was before he was on the island. And so we don't need to see that anymore. That man is dead. That man is done now. This new john locke has survived and yesterday have been facets of him that have been here on the island so far looking at you throw in a knife to interrupt meeting in walkabout but did this truly does feel like a new pep in his step and so maybe i'll put a pin in this moment. Get to that episode. Several several several weeks down the line but it does make me think if that was a necessary thing. That's my line alright. So the episode begins with lock by the fire with the sawyer dossier as a man in a burlap sack is stirring lock. Doesn't save your breath. Nobody can hear you and then he burns the folder and so that's not a flashback. That at the start of the episode. So we're beginning there. That's where john lott. John walkie has right now. You know john locke is by a fire somewhere in the woods reading this thing. And i love that. I love that sort of that mystery. Structure this episode because yeah now we do slammed back to the moment where john locke sees anthony cooper for the first time in man from tallahassee. We continue that momentum and it continues with a big bite out of john locks hand. Anthony cooper is going to to the first thing he. He's not going to do any talking. He's all all he's both bark and exactly and and ben does warn him like. Hey you probably gag on. He'll bite he bites and he's like i don't know about that. I know this guy better than you do. In indeed anthony cooper testify against bites man. He really does. Yeah exactly but the power with which ben holdover lot again weakened sort of talk about the choice to have a significant break of time between from tallahassee and this but at least this scene does russia 's back to not only the context of that moment but the context of that power dynamic because again. This was benn who got locked to blow up the sub on his behalf then is the one that holds all the power. Here just had locked tied up in the storeroom. Remember when he said oh just to show you the biggest flex that i could have. Here's here's your dad. I know everything about you. And i have all these resources at my fingertips or at least i appear to be that promise. Bright back in that in the thick of it all in terms of the status of ben despite being sitting his towering over john locke at this point of like yup. I brought the meal at the real mccoy to you. You know teeth and all and by the way. We're going someplace else and i mean you could come with if you want to. I didn't exactly invite you. But i guess you could be a plus one but i but i also think that you know to the point that is delivered later of is is ben jealous of john which i think is definitely one hundred percent. I mean that's what i think. Lock as we talked about in the made from tallahassee. I think lock did sort of hit a nerve when he men we're talking about how you know. Lock garnered a lot of attention for being the guy who was paralyzed. Certainly walk whereas ben is becoming the opposite. He's a rock star. He's a lock star in. Ben is ben and ben has power. Ben ben is not an episode of lost then he has power right like he's a very powerful person and i think this is another episode in which like that argument that i that i made in stranger in a strange land in the podcast was like i know it's unsafe. Benjamin line is is a is a bad dude and like the public shaming and the potential public execution. That could have happened. Juliet and like the public trial is within character. This guy and see no further proof in the fact that like in front of children and everyone was all right with this at least was like subservient to it because he's the dictator and he's in charge. Ben was gonna have. John locke slit the throat of a man tied to a totem pole discipline potential and this is the same guy who with the same straight face till someone. We're not murderers. Yeah exactly he's a liar. He's a bad guy you know. This shouldn't be controversial. This can be a very very great character and also be an awful person and he has an awful guy. He's awful guy who's got a very sad story as we will come to learn but he is an awful person who has done awful things will continue to do awful things and we'll maybe try with his final ounces of energy in his life. We'll try to do better but we'll still never be able to feel at least comfortable walking through those church doors. That's who we're dealing with. When we're dealing with benjamin linus and i think that idea of like where he is with cooper here and lock is like we didn't bring him here john. This is all you use me how he got here. Hey we're going to. We're going somewhere new actually somewhere very old. You wanna come with us like he's setting lock up. He's imbuing lock with this idea. He's always had locks number and he continues to have locks number until locks dying day because he knows locks. Turnkey this idea that i'm here for a reason i am special. And he leans into that and he's doing that here as well. I think very much with the idea that he's hoping that lock is going to fail and he's at the very least if at the very least going to try and set this guy up for failure. I think everything that he does here in this moment of like. We're going to this very old place. would you like to come with. Us is all in service of him eventually trying to publicly pants. John locke completely. And the thing that i love about it as well because if ben has a specialization in his duplicity i think it's the illusion of free. Will which is a big losers michael. Exactly it's just a thing that that horse do for money or cash but dharma fish bars but this idea that he's to your point he's trying to create this idea to john locke of like i didn't bring anthony cooper to the island you did and to your point. He's doing that to put. John locke up on this pedestal of like look at how special you are. Look at these choices you are making. That are all completely correct so then when this does happen he can then pull down john locks pants not literally but then say hey look everybody. Remember the man that you touted. As this god of the island he turns out not to be whatsoever. Doddering old fool. Who worked at a box company. You know he really is setting him up for a fall in that regard and ben does this all the time even with someone like juliet experienced as recent as a few episodes ago how they kept promising her like regard. You can do this. You can do that. But that is absolutely never the case and i think a reason how ben is able to keep people under their thumb is he's able to use that idea of the illusion of free will in so many ways whether it's like juliet of keeping them the carrot almost even though that it's always out of arms reach orrin john locke it's setting them up to say look at all these choices. You're making a actually they all really suck. This is why you're not the person that you think you are ten. Also think that like this is how like ben believes that people are going to like. Get off the. John locke trains look. You didn't publicly murder. This where's your messiah now. Yeah this is how he relates to human beings. Let's not let's not forget that. Let's also you know he says to lock. We're holding a few buildings over from here if you wanna say goodbye. Didn't lock say he's stopped pretty hard for did this. I think trying to save face. I think over like oh you know. I should've said something. Well she doesn't need to know that will wait a minute and benz like john you do realize that she killed her stepfather right. Yeah there's probably a great idea. Let me put that in my memory banks for later. Yeah slightly deleted scene. That didn't make the cut another fantastic a hypocrisy as he mentioned again. Ben saying you know. We're not murderers. Does that thing. But then according to lock also turns down cates resume quote unquote because she murdered her stepfather. Right exactly are it's later that night or we go back to the present anyway. Back on the island back beats speaking of kate. She wants to go back to her own. Tendencies with sawyer this. I i didn't realize this until i looked back on my notes. Josh i don't know if this is purposeful or not. This is callback to orientation. I don't know if you remember. But in very very first nights that helen lock spend together. Helen caught locks off and he said. I can't sleep if i'm not in my bed. Yeah so a even though lockstep involved in this scene he has very much fingerprints over the course of this episode. Yes so that's great. I hadn't picked up on that. I love that connection so this is again. Like this is her and kate and sawyer. Wake actually being in this place. Where like going. Well the worst thing. He has to worry about right now as he has to get up in the night to that is the worst that it is at the moment he someone loves him. Someone cares about him. He cares about them. He's unapologetic about it. She's unapologetic about it. She still wants to sleep in her own tent. He's cool with it. you know. Even the fine skram weird. It's weird thing. Where like initially. I thought they were brusque with each other but like they do kiss and there is some playful banter there so it's clear that's just sort of the way that it's their dynamic and it's fun and it's cute and i really really like it and is clearly really really happy and i think it's such a wise choice to ground sawyer in this moment because this is like this is the end of that for him for a while you know he's going to have another moment you know him and him and kate are gonna sleep together in season four and he's gonna have some other human moments in season for you get to play risk with hurley and everything like that jumps jumps out of a helicopter finds his way back to humanity. But this is like in a way the last pure moment for sawyer until his time with juliet. I think this is the last pure moment for that character until he gets to like actually have another break. This is launching us into a really significant period of james boards life and to have this as kind of like our last memory of that stuff. I think is important. If i were to make an analogy it's almost like sawyer. Went into witness protection and was creating a new identity for himself and then he happens to run into some from his past life at the coffee shop right. We're like everything comes rushing back. He did not invite this back into his life but now he can't help but live the life that he lived once before. so he's he's offered a walker. I got p. anyways so he's going to go and he's going to try and but he sees something curious. Outside of his tent he's gonna see jin and hurley. Outside of hurley's sent in the following exchange occurs. Doing what the hell you doing. Going to take. A leak daryl. So are we all right. Great ensure impression they're sawyer and i literally just included that sound because it cracks me up. I think it's super funny and it is by foreign away both the shortest and lightest audio. Quit that we will get in this episode. We're going to be playing really heavy scenes under the cloak of darkness not entirely literally light also hopefully no translates that scene for gently. He's like why am i around hurley. In every time he has to mention so we got p. To all righty. Then i wasn't that like sawyer even in this moment like he's in such a place where like he doesn't need he doesn't need to know what's going on and that's usually not sawyers thing. I do wonder if after the whole events of one of us wherever essentially found out like touched. The stove and juliet burnt him quite literally. That he's like all right. I'm just going to keep to myself though. Maybe i should have delve into this too much. And i think there's also sets up definitely obviously not as important. That's what's gonna happen in the main set but definitely another thing that moves the chains along with what's to come hurling. The campers have started to make their way back to camp proper josh but they are still being squirrelly instead of being themselves because they are not sure who to disclose all the naomi of it all too. Yeah well we'll get there and they make a great choice of course when they get their sawyer is to go. He's going to. He's going to go and begin to p i think he gets as far as pulling out his junk and john locke shows polo james. And i do think this is probably a bigger remote had honestly heard kate not call him james like in the big groups in a couple of episodes ago because again we have to sort of make the shortlist of who knows that soldiers name is james. We know hurley. Obviously from the manifest kate michael back in the day and i feel like there's something big and him saying hello james because that's another clue of like how does he know sawyers real name. He must know sawyers real story. And i think when you when you're connecting the breadcrumbs as to where we get eventually with these flashbacks. That's another bit of an indicator. He's been calling him james for a while really. I'm trying to remember if you remember. He called him. That's that i came up in the hunting party. Yes you're right yes. So he's been calling him that. For what but i still think it's significant because there is sort of paternal quality to john from john locke to a bunch of other people and i think that a relationship that gets overlooked is sort of the a this this one between locke and sawyer of like a father figure to sawyer at certain points in time. Not that like. I think soaraway really thinks of him that way but just sort of the idea of like john locke kind of like the island. Daddy two oh ho. Yeah he is. The you know what i mean and i think like the fact that he shows up for that coffee scene in outlaws and is there at a moment when sawyers reminiscing on the time that he thought he killed sawyer but he did it and now to have these two people like bonded together in this episode and even then without knowing that they were bonded over something there. I think the fact that locked comes here. And in this moment where sawyer is going to be reduced back to his childhood trauma and reminding him that you're not sawyer james sport. I don't think that's insignificant. Plus i think the good thing and telling sawyer to xyz which i am italy very common issue with that so i appreciate the john locke to the world indicating that to that to me especially on the dl. Yes for sure so. Zip your pants up. And he's like. I didn't join the others. He's like why are you. Why back here. Why did you go up. The submarine didn't join the others didn't join the others infiltrated him. Yeah i'm glad kidnapped ben and we talked about this during one of us. I'm glad that at least someone is showing some you know. Some fury towards john locke for this news like oh. He went off with the other because again. That is a big deal. Finally get to see that vocalized but like you said. Lock has an explanation for everything. So he says 'i infiltrated him kidnapped. Ben a dragged him into the jungle. And i would like it if you would kill him and so we didn't see any of that and i do believe that like certainly for for me. You know. there's there's no doubt in my mind at this point on the i watch that. He's talking about anthony cooper that it's anthony cooper that he dragged that this is going to beat where we're finally building to it. That's because i'm a i'm a huge loss dork. Exactly my friends. And i have been talking about this ever. And it's all over the internet as well so when you see locking sawyer and has seen together and you know that the ad that anthony cooper is now on the island you know this is going to happen and actually go back to that initial question as to. Does this actually work at the twist for me. It works in a twist in the same way that a greek tragedy does. We're like a great tragedy does not really have many surprises in it. The whole advent of the aristoteles drama is that the chorus comes out and says this is what's going to happen. It's going to suck. And we essentially watch the characters come to that conclusion so from that capacity. I still think it's a twist in that regard just because it doesn't surprise us profoundly especially those that were tapped into the vein of loss doesn't not make it a twist because it's a revelation for these characters. Yeah i think it's a twist i. I don't think that it's like too obvious. I think it's it's obvious because it's playing fair that it's the culmination of something. I'm thinking i'm going to tread lightly here. Because i know that there are people who including the person who i'm speaking to right now who haven't seen the show but people who are who are watching it for the first time right now because we live in a time where old shows are new again. Because we don't have new shows and that's battle star galactica and battle star galactica was built was very clearly building towards something it was. It was heavily speculated about by fans and head there is a pivot towards like something that really doesn't make any sense and they didn't they didn't go with the thing that people had guest because people guessed it and that was such a mistake. It was such a mistake to like. Change your story because people figured it out. People figured it out because you were playing fair this is another reason why people figured out the sawyer and locke connection they were playing fair and they stuck to the vision and thank god. They did to pivot away from that. I think is a is a mistake. And it's a twist for the characters it's a twist for the people who did not put it together. I don't think it's too obvious. But frankly it doesn't even matter if it's obvious it's the idea that like if you're if you're thing can be ruined by a spoiler thing is probably not that good to begin with. I absolutely believe in that. I think that like if if people knowing what your central twist is completely ruins. The movie movies probably already ruined. Yeah you want to preserve that twist because it's a delight to experience that surprised for the first time and unspoiled but if it doesn't still hold up when you then examine it and go back to. It was wrong to begin with a flash in the pan. you know. it's all spark no substance and i think the other thing that really is substantial when it comes to these twists is also the aftermath. If i may invoke a piece of pop culture that i've actually seen let's talk are pacelle equals j. That was a huge fan theory that had been years in the making that actually manifested itself on something. Like game of thrones and it was a big deal at the time but the fact that there was really in retrospect very little payoff to it. All i think really sours that twist in people's minds and despite what you might be saying about in both cases i think if you're really tuned into what fans were saying in both cases. It's something that's going to eventually happen. That was come came. Barreling down was only a matter of time. Whereas i feel like game of thrones just did it just to do that thing and then really may nothing of it moving forward here they use it in a way to make memorable character connections and epiphanies and seminal events in their lives. That's going to to the point that we made throughout this podcast really changed both of these characters. Moving forward for sure. So he's say like. I want you to calm source. Says i'm not a murderer as well. What about that. Guy is killed in sydney in snowpacks. Lock here doing the fact checking on moment. what are you talking about. I have no idea you know. Nothing john snaps in. He's well they've got files. A their files are wrong in locks as well then. I guess i made a mistake. Don't tell anyone i was here. And he turns and walks and he knows he's he's got that grin on his face of like. Oh i'm and i'm pretty sure. Actually this is very similar to confidence. Man when sawyer walks away from like donna. Bata at the table right. When he's got that greg on his face like three to one. And then sawyer says you know what i might have to p and i might be barefoot. I'm gonna come with you. yes so. I think it's. That's that's a really compelling poll as well right because like this is an episode where where sawyer is falling for a con so to speak and. I think that there's like there. This is an episode that has a lot of regression for james fort. I think progression as well ultimately. But i think a lot of regression for hand like bringing him back to basics both as a character but also like as human as an adult human who is now closer to resembling hate to say adult babies. You know closer to being a bit of a kid again. I will say i think with sawyer. It's the only way is through almost compared to like you dive through a wave to to move on from it. And so i feel like that's what sorta has to do here in order to break on and move on to the person that he will eventually become in the future or past however you wanna put it. He's going to have to push through the pain and trauma of refacing. This moment speaking of pushing through the pain disorder ever p or is he holding it for the rest of the episode. Maybe he pisses on anthony cooper's corp just like they sold to injury there it doesn't appear that that happens but if you want a head cannon that mike why does he smell like all right. It's a flashback. To three days earlier. John locke is with the others. He's specifically with cindy helping her with the with ten she has. She has like an arstan like scarf that she has on with so many nuts in it. That's all. I could watch during this this little interaction. She's okay everybody's talking because they're so excited. You're here john waiting for you. What is it with these people like i. It's jack in the cage and now it's locked putting up ten. They were fascinated with everything. Eight one five is doing why think they gotta be pretty stoked about john locke i mean i think like especially from like so we never really know like what is the stuff that happens promote cindy specifically to like. Here's the cool lead right ask the others are are pushing and this is why you should be excited about it because obviously like she cares about the kids. She wants to make sure that they're safe but she also often does come across as though like she's buying. This is the moment where she really does. Seem like. she's buying what the others are selling. And you have to imagine that like there. Is this piece of the sales pitch. That's like in john. There's a guy. He had a broken spine. He can walk now here. Here's the five chad out. He doesn't get you. Served him that vodka on the plane. That's that's that guy. That's have a celebrity in your midst. And i'm not talking about the lottery winner or the guy of drive shaft so i think getting getting them hyped on. That would make a lot of sense for why people would be really excited about lock. I once thought that maybe like do some of these people know that lock is a time traveller in water. Them certainly does which will get them. Does that matters in those interactions. I think it's probably it's a little harder to 'cause like there's no way that the other gawkers know that and benjamin linus doesn't right and so if we're going to take that on. I'm not prepared today to take that on. But let's float that idea out there. In case hatchlings have ideas about. This does benjamin linus. No that john locke is going to be a time travel. Is that part of the intelligence he has. Or is that something that richard alpert his co. holman crispy and i'll be inclined to believe believe that albert wouldn't tell ben that if richer created the dossiers on everybody could that have been something he redacted and kept in his pocket. I would if i'm richard alpert. Yeah that's what i do. Especially because like like jacob's like oh well ben thinks he's the leader of the others. That's fine let them be. And then over. Time as you're working for ben more and more you're starting to realize like this guy socks is guys dangerous. In fact this guy like this guy probably shouldn't be in charge of everything and like you're starting to feel the time travelling guy who has been thinking about forty years fifty years. Whatever it's been. He's here now so now you're starting to rethink some of your decisions. I don't think that that's a guy that i tell about. Well there's this time traveler. Who's going to be coming in. Who's going to say that he's in charge of me. But like i've seen some weird shit year and so i'm gonna i'm gonna go ahead and believe that but i think he's going to back that stuff and i think that that's going to be why richard alpert is gonna want to actualize. John locke now that he's here. He's had experience with this guy. Yeah and he also leeann. He knows that this guy will eventually become the leader of the others too. So like what. Good is that going to do. Benjamin linus knowing that that's just going to villain is lock more in his eyes. So i do like this idea. Then if it's the richard versus and one-sided feud that richard is keeping this in his own pocket speaking of timelines josh. Can we talk for a second about the recorded. Message here because we got a couple of questions about this with how it worked with. Dmc yes so. I think one of the things that we are we are wondering here is is this. Is this one of the first times that the that the show is kind of like jumping forward in time because this is three days ago was the most recent episode. I believe this was technically. I think this was supposed to be like day eighty five. I believe the events of. I think when juliet records that message it six. Am in the morning on day. Eighty seven. I think okay. So there's a little bit of a continuity era. i would say yeah. I think it's a simple as that. I'm done coming up with cockamamie theories based on continuity errors. I i've made my bed in that regard. Yeah i just like we can go there if we want. There's so much that's working in this episode. That and that's the thing right like can can an episode conquer that stuff because of all the other things that are going on. We've talked about this before. With one of them with the whole truth can ending push like otherwise fine episode further down the line for its greatness. This is an instance where like a continuity error is not even like. It's not even denting the arm and i wanna talk for a second because is going to visit ben. Who's listening to this time. Travelling message in his tent. And there's a couple of things in this tent here so. The first is one of the books that ben is reading is called the oath which is a novel by john. A chart which is about a doctor who murders seriously ill patients for financial gain so again. If you wanna look at what. Ben linus is perusing in his free time. Check out. that says a lot about him. But i love. It's going to be short. Lived but i love. This imagery of ben linus his walking stick. I never really caught it. The first time didn't really dote on it. But it is so meaningful in so many ways i know this is this is comparable to the last character. We knew who wielded a stick and had sort of friendly relationship with john. Locke which mr young now you sort of loved that this passing the baton in a way of like this is going to be the next complicated character that lock is going to have a huge ties like theological discussions and debates with. Yeah exactly and there's also this idea that lock earlier on the season followed echoes. Stick to the letter and the law. Which again is a representation of this guy's faith and this is going to be a big time adjoins character as well when they say that maybe one of the reasons why he got healed and someone like ben did it because of his unwavering faith to the island so i don't know whether or not in means to be a callback to stick but i feel like it for lack of a better term echoes. Really well considering locked ship with that character before him mike. I'm having such a good time. And just kinda sit like all my god so much. This is so good. That's great love that and he's saying it's so great to have you here john. I gotta be honest. I couldn't feel my toes and then you show up and i could feel pins and needles in like oh my god this is just the beginning and then i'm like oh that surgery pain is coming back. There were so many needles so many news but he's just like being like john. The you know the sky's the limit for you and the purple skies only thing is. There's just one thing that guy the one that we have tied to the pole in the middle of all of this. We got to probably do something about that. Because as long as he's here you'll never be free. Release the whole that. Your father has over you. i should know. Why don't you go check that doorman that your buddies started up a little while ago. Either there is this like there. Is this piece of like maybe some authenticity of like ben actually believing that lake john locke is not look at this guy. He's i killed my dad. I killed my dad. And i lost no sleep over it. I killed my dad for the cause and lost. Not a minute of sleep in. This guy is not going to be able to do it. Where why is it. Is it all a gambit or is there like a bit of like again in the way. That benjamin linus relates to people like looking at locked inability to kill cooper and being like you loser. Yeah i mean to a certain extent. It's been pulling a christian and telling lock you just don't have what it takes Very much very much that a so. Why did he think this guy came your anyway. It looks like i don't know why don't you take me to the magic box and telling me because the boxes of the metaphor ben martell. I mean that's really the time. Traveling element is ben. looks forward. Martell would be very nonplussed by that and it was making a direct comment to him. It was a metaphor the whole time. Leave it alone. Leave it alone so he tells them danny's like all right. You're gonna you're gonna need to make a gesture of free will and commitment john. You're going to have to kill your father and this doesn't sound like free will to me and that's exactly you're placing an order on him. That's exactly what i was saying before. Right he is he is trying to say. Oh you're doing this. You know this is mandating you to do this. But it's a choice you have to make. This is ben linus rulebook where he is keeping people subjugated by making them believe that they are they're making choices out of the kindness or lack thereof of their heart. But at the same time. They're always doing it in service to him whether they realize it or not one hundred percent. So the flashback. Ends with lock's staring at his dad across the way and his dad's he's gagged up his time he's just looking at lock you can only imagine what he's thinking in that moment. Nothing good back at. The beach tries gathering supplies from the kitchen tax. I heard about the camping trip. Why didn't you call me. i would've gone. I can tell you all my stories about yeah. I'm pretty good at making marshmallows mars. Yeah i was like what other kinds. moore's are. there will accept a. It'd be like all he would do is just make pasta. Like that's all he did was make pasta. Talk about pasta. I make a mean campfire angel. Angel agile pizza graham crackers with angel hair pasta and we've had a lot of weird food hypotheticals that ones among the jack and moore's angel hair awful that's more end so that didn't get the invite and then there with desmond have. Maybe we should tell jack. Look i wouldn't trust jack that dude's pal around with your girl. Juliet these these others are not to be trusted. That's why i let them go last week and also like she seems to be doing totally fine. Maybe doesn't need a doctor anymore. Like is like you know. Mikhail did seem to puffer up and she's doing fine and she's like talking and stuff and she's conscious so we don't need the doctor yet. Get me someone who could do trust because the stakes are really high. And they'll have a very good answer to who they can trust in just a little while so a source from a logistical perspective. Do we assume that when they caught a hurley and jin clinical peeing. The campers move naomi to attend to under the cloak of night and just nobody was aroused because of it. Yeah i think that's right. These guys are super celtic. If we had enough points. I think he give it another. Mvp to everybody on the campaign trail. I cannot believe that kept this thing hidden considering life. Naomi i guess for staying because otherwise you can let it like moans of agony people be like oh i mean gawkers were gawking at much less on eight one five if i heard like maybe this explains the time jim maybe they were all just hanging out in the woods for a couple of days until like naomi. Stop like crying like okay. I'm good to go. Yeah exactly and they're like why. Why does it sound like there's duolingo app going in your tent. We're like five different languages being spoken it. Yeah don't worry about that. Don't worry about it it's fine. It's fine go goals. Go washer redshirt jack. All right. let's get to where i extensive sound of the episode it is. It's going to be james ford barefoot foot barefoot contessa himself walking through the jungle. Johnny lock still holding it. One assumes because he got to deliver that on that he cooper and sawyer and locker can have conversations are going to get pretty intense pretty quickly. What's listening should have put some shoes. Think what else is file. Got on not much. Your parents died when you were very young. But it doesn't say why your father your mother or why. He turned the gun on himself. Must have hard for you in your what else high school transcripts criminal record called con jobs were arrested or i guess. That's why you use an alias. Why did you choose the name sawyer eastern guy and maybe you heard about it with a number painting on take him. she's gonna follow. You have to trust. Where are you taking. Tony's a truth when he wants to bring you there. Do exactly what i said to kill ben. Why don't you come back to get me. why me. why won't you do it. yourself james. please don't tell me james. Why won't you do it yourself for you. Go to wherever you got him. But then we're bringing him back to our camp. I killing nobody. You understand me. And i understand which you'll change your mind when you hear what he has to say. Change your mind in obviously not represented in audio form. But those face on josh holloway. Because and the final scene in the act but as lock walks away like pans over to sawyers face which is extremely conflicted because lock busily calling them out like sawyer is saying this but he knows an lock knows that like there's a very good chance he is going to go back into go into his worst fear incisively because the man that he was right before the island shooting frank. Duck it because he knows that this is going to be something that he will. He doesn't want to kill anyone just one. If he doesn't he doesn't want to do that right but at the same time. I think he also knows like the type of person he is. Where okay if you if you were faced with the ability to get revenge on a very tasty temptation for someone like sawyer who to your point has tried to become a better man. Yeah i think. I think also you know there's the line. Don't call me james that in the audio but what you miss is before that before. He runs and tackles john after after john tells him like the file tells me that your parents died. When you were young but doesn't say why your father shot your mother or why. He turned the gun himself. That must have been hard for you and there is. There's a couple of things happening there. One from mike. John locke who understands what it's like to have such a profoundly sad and damaged and violent relationship with one's father that there's empathy there but there's also for for james who's not used to empathy being called james and having like this sort of paternal figure expressing that empty must be outstandingly unusual to the point of this never happened for him or even when kate read the letter i mean i think she certainly had some sympathy and empathy there. But i do not think she had. I don't think she said the words that locked it essentially of like from like coming from a man who could be your dad. I think that that that means something different. I think that hits differently. You see this is what i was going to say. You see this. In holloway's face the way that he crosses processes that information there. Is this like sadness there. Is this youthfulness. there is this there there. There's this visual expression of things. That he missed things that he never got things that he lost over the course of his life when when john brings all that up and then his face hardens again. Anyway go get back to that anger. And and that's what pushes him towards the towards the tackle. It's a beautiful seat in an episode that is filled with these great two handers. This is one of the best. I also love the symbolic. Let's go from feeders. Obviously it's built for comedy this moment where sawyer you know. He got called literally flat-footed on his way to p when when lock accosted him in the jungle so you obviously was not prepared for it but the imagery of sawyer walking barefoot through here is really interesting. I never going back to the anthony. Cooper hell of it all. It's an interesting idea. That like every step is agony. Because he's walking through the woods barefoot which is not a good thing to do even the best survivor players would would tell you that and i think when he sticks his feet later on. Let's outta sigh of relief. You can tell how much pain he is in from a physical and emotional perspective but it's actually very comparable to me of in. I think it was adrift. When we i see lock. Go into the swan right when he takes off his shoes. We tell you about a bit before the diehard comparison about how the guy on the plane tells john maclean just in time for christmas. Hey if you take off your shoes like that's how you get settled into your natural environment and lock. Does that whether he means to her when he enters the swan and sawyer is kind of left doing that here too where he has to find his natural setting. That's what it is entire. Arc is about this episode in order to do so yes to shed his clothes in a manner of speaking but also shed what he has has essentially built up for good amount of time on the island so far so good are back at the beach speaking of so good. Let's bring that dude count. Hurley comes up to sue side. Who's just burying stuff. And what is he doing because he maybe he's like preemptively. Maybe he's like. I know someone who dies soon. So let me just dig a hole ahead of time. I'm raking leaves. Hurley paid site because hey hurley and then there's no follow up at him for an unfortunate amount of time sade whose such a bad ass just like knows that something's so he turns around to hurley. Can you keep a secret inside. Just kind of like nods at him like you're talking to like obviously i can keep secret. I love goes with charlie to the tent athlete. So you haven't told jack yet and traffic no not yet inside just grabs him by both arms is good. Yeah i mean let's remember. This is still even though. Juliet read site for filth. In one of us. I think unlike sawyer he has he doesn't have sweet booth thing on the island at this moment. I think he's still probably fixated on this idea of like not to trust juliet. I think there's a lot going on here with saieed. Considering what happened with ben last season. I think he is much more hesitant to trust them. Unlike juliet knowing they had someone in their midst oh he was immediately onto his gut was right. Why wouldn't be right time. So i think it makes sense that he's not going to shake this anytime soon on top of that. The idea that even jack might be indoctrinated. Yeah for sure. Because i mean it happened with michael. So he doesn't know you know he's no way so far he has a completely aggies batting a thousand right now in terms of everyone he suspects is bad is usually bad and he's ultimately not wrong with with italian tire. Yeah she had every chance to. She had every intention to like you know. Take down eight hundred five from within. He was counting on her heel. Turn and so. He's and he's also not wrong to think. Like jack has blinders on juliet. Because at that moment like jack is not read on what juliette has going on with. Ben and he's also not wrong right now in the immediate future of like jack's keeping something from you know there's something we're not being told yet so there there is a degree of trust is broken between jack inside. He'd right now that i don't know if it ever fully gets repaired repaired to a degree and i think once they both like feel like they've got like active actual actionable plans to get off the island. They're able to figure that stuff out but right now it's busted so the way he comes to charlie's just like good. I'm glad you didn't the fact that when he gets brought into the tent and desmond takes one look at site perfect. Yeah yes that you read my mind. You got the exact right person to come in here. Yeah all right. Let's give a listen here to saieed first conversation. My name science johan understand. Your helicopter crashed onto the island. Actually it crashed in the woods. What's your name. Naomi naomi me for. What exactly did you take off. Ship prater eighteen article miles west of here part of the search and recovery team. You told my friends. The wreckage of flight one five was discovered. Did you mean the partial age. No they found the entire plane off the coast of bali in an ocean. Trench four miles deep down cameras in these little robots to survey the wreck. The buddies will there. Obviously so if you weren't looking for us were you looking for. My company was hired by woman named penelope week more. I don't know why i never met her. She gave was a set of core nuts. We'd be conducting differential. Gps grid jackson's new about the island island were given coordinates in the middle of the bloody ocean. We thought it was a fool's errand till three days ago. I was flying back for the ship when all of a sudden the clouds quit and i saw land instruments died spinning realized i was going down. So grab my shoe. And i bailed. Did you actually see copter. He think i'm lying night. I take it you have no means whatsoever of communicating with the reviewers. What was your name saieed. Guess remind me not to rescue you. Saieed jokes on your be dead. When i'm rescued. I love that line. I mean that's a rescue you site. Yeah she's so. I love this. Naomi even even like early on and he's like you know you crashing. This is he goes well. Technically i crashed in the water. Just samantha semantics. Let's talk about this for a second. Because i need a reminder josh if you were the hatchlings can can answer this for us picture. Why does naomi by that. She's there on behalf of penny could. It's obvious that she's not that. Obviously this was a this was a different whitmore that center there. But i can't remember what she given the narrative of like when you land. I don't remember. I don't remember if that's going to be in confirmed dead. If like here's here's the lie that you give people can definitely fill us in on that. But i can imagine at the very least like why not telling the truth because there's like kill orders. You're not telling the truth. I just wonder if she was given that lineup like specifically should bring any or she was just a penny does right penny set me. Yeah i i don't recall but i mean i know that they've got shoot to kill orders if i don't remember. Do they have to kill them all or is it just like we'll kill everybody if we need to. Yeah i feel like i feel. It might be the ladder and then once we get key me involved very much turns into the floor. We're just gonna kill it. Just carpet. Bomb the island's. Nancy gerard the best even though even though he's wrong that like she's got the thing like she's got the ability to communicate. He's just asking all the right questions. He's paying attention. He's an active listener. Everything like did you actually see the helicopter. The way that he's dealing with her as far as bedside manner. It's all very very very good. Site is a very worthy. Mvp of this episode. I think in terms of just like pure like Like a character's actions like he just plays all of this totally totally right well on top of that josh. He fixes this phone for a while they thought like oh was absolutely inoperable now. This is not nearly as much of a huge fix as he had to do to the transponder in in the pilot. But this is like shades of the professor sii that we saw in season. One the gather all of your electronics. Though i did find it very interesting. That hurley was the first to like identify. The satphone right what. It was but has no idea how it works right right. We wouldn't even tell you if we had this phone. I love the scene in this episode. All right back with. John james walking along they stop at the creaking. The one the only creek on the island. Yeah the nice little like a foot back foot bath creek. That's sawyer uses here as well too so this. This is the same creek that mr drank adam. I wonder how many other dirty feet help especially considering the other. 'cause play got imagine there's a lot of dirty feet trudging through those waters hundred percent hundred percent and so he's like. Hey could you tell me why you think i'm gonna kill ben. Why do you think it's why do you think that's going to happen. And i don't know. I don i don't ask me questions because then i'm just going to tell you like look. The guy killed your dad's my dad like you're going to love this. You're gonna wanna kill this guy. There is like so in in in in the in the spirit of them being by the water drinking water. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make drinks such as the smoke monster. In which case the that that horses need to drink water because it subsists on immortal evil smoke. John locke is a guy who from the moment that we've met him on this show certainly on the island is interested in in sharing. Spread the faith johnny right. Like he's a he's a guy who wants to share the wealth of like what he's feeling and these like ideas of miracles and small miracles and you to actualize yourself like giving charlie the choice of whether or not to become a to free himself to become the moth right and i think here with sawyer like he doesn't want to just come out and say it you know he. He wants to be able to go to that moment and make the choice and he believes that the answer that the proper answer and i think this is one of those places where like this is a very big sign that john locke does not necessarily have all the answers. Because i like murder. This man is not good. No no matter. What does the abbot coming absolutely. But like still the of murder. This man is kind of messed up but in his mind he is helping james sawyer. Ford it to actualize to become james board instead of being the rest of his life. So i think it's just a fair moment to stop down and remark on that. And also you know that being part and parcel with this moment from sawyer being like what you read in the file like it was a mistake. I thought he was somebody else like. I didn't mean to kill him. And this is what unlocks like well. Who did you and this is very of that mold of lock being like. I know something you don't know and you're gonna know it soon enough and you're going to make the choice and i am the shaman. Who led you there. Not only that but it also reminds sawyer of like yes. You may have killed the wrong man. You still have the urge to kill right. He of is calling out sawyer to his face like you say you're not a killer on you. Don't do this. But you literally did. Kill someone whether incidental or not you have this capacity and there's a very good chance the person that you see depending on what you see. You're going to do it again. Hundred percent alright. So another flashback. Three days ago. Ben's gonna lock up in the middle of the night. He's gonna bring them over to tony coops and lock it in my sleep. We already went to the river of dreams. We were just there Yeah the river of the fees. So he's going to bring him over so he's going to bring he's gonna bring lock over to his dad. He's going to give them a knife and this is what happens won't be easy. The quicker the better off. You're kidding me right. You expect him to kill me. Tom hesitation that you feeling is just the part of you. That still feels like he was a perfectly good explanation for stealing your kidney throwing you out of an eight storey window. Wanna be free from me. As a tation he's feeling is because is spineless. Don't think john you're wasting your time bug-eyed through this all. He wants his his dad. Served really haven't figured it out. God john a on this to me. You're doing this to yourself. As long as he's still breathing you'll still be that same sad pathetic little man that was kicked off his walkabout to her. Because you couldn't walk. I'll be the rest of the week. John if you change your mind. I'm sorry he's not who we thought he was There's a lot there. But i want to draw specific attention. I to you. The book ends of that sound. Which are both fantastic call. Because i we start off with ben giving lock a knife. Let's fast forward to the end of season five when quote unquote lock gives dead and knife literally at four o'clock to kill jacob and then the very end of the scene. Is ben taking a knife away from lock and saying he who thought he was. Let's flash forward or flash back to the apprehension cabin fever. Where of the many things john locke will be choosing to identify. What's you between a knife and a compass etc picks the wrong thing and that gives richard alpert essentially this idea of. He's not who i thought he was. He's not special and so it's some fantastic stuff. The not only calls back to what we've experienced so far with john locke but still shows for lack of a better term. The shape of things to come totally. Oh that was the perfect term to use Yeah i think all of that is very very apt. And i think like in like our long preamble before going into the episode proper short shifting ben a little bit but i think that's just a testament to how rich this episode is including how alberta today's and i think for ben there. There's a lot here. I think like both in terms of like planting some some flags in the ground of where he's been where he's going who he came with who. He's leaving with what his journey is going to be. And how it connects to either. John lock or lock the visage of john locke being a manifestation of the island. Let's talk about that. You know that that's a through line for john. Locke specifically terry quinn as a presence on the show so i think that that's all really really i for lock. It doesn't feel right. there's too much pressure. it's a reminder of who he was. He doesn't want that anymore. he can't bring himself to do it. He's always been so weak in the face of his father. the right answer hasn't clicked. It doesn't feel right. Yeah if this doesn't feel right but the island is going to give him a sign soon. That is going to tell them. Like no not only killing this guy right. But there's actually a very poetic way to do it and that's gonna turn this whole situation moving. I love ben sir. Being like The sideline coach to this as well and again. You have to wonder. How much of. This is ben building up this big moment to humiliate john how much this might be him projecting his own daddy issues. That being like this is how you kill your father. John this is how you do with you. do stab stabber to stereo. This is how you read. So i think there's some personal bias there but you know ben really digging into john locke i didn't get it to double edge sword double edged knife in that regard him trying to push john but also humiliating him by reminding him what just happened before he came onto the island. That like no matter. What no matter if this island things your special you were. The guy denied a walkabout tour. Because you couldn't walk and you gotta imagine there's again some some strategy behind what ben line is tries to do and it ends up working in a certain regard because as locke looks out at the other version of the gawkers day. Look pretty disenfranchised with this guy that they thought was the super special miracle-man. Yep yeah. Well i think also because like at this point. They're sort of like indoctrinated to believe that. Sort of this like google gobble. One of us like savage way or this lord of the flies in a type of society that that is why type of we decided that for brands when they commit wrongs yes. They're like shit like give us blood. We want blood. We demand a show. I think i think there's a measure of that. I think that another read when you look at the gawkers. This is the best group of gawkers we've encountered on losses. I think is because there's a lot loaded into the way that they are watching the situation is like are. They disappointed that. John locke isn't giving them the show or are they terrified of the show. Is this a moment where wake yet. They believe that there are special. Things happening out here on the island but this is really scary. And these are some of those moments where some of us aren't feeling necessarily like this is the right way to go. Of course there's the more militant others like like ryan price and all those people who are going to lead the charge on the camp in a few days and if you episodes from now but then there's also the indian the kids and the people who are of their ilk who don't necessarily want to like live under the reign of of an oppressive leader and yet they are part of this community and this community is run by leader and they don't necessarily have either a choice or at least an easy choice survivable choice potentially So it's it's a really loaded scene from from that standpoint of like who the others are. I think that there is an interpretation of this episode in terms of people who. Maybe don't care for it too much. That like if we're going to get these. John locke flashbacks to his time with the others. Couldn't we at least learn a little bit more about the others. I would argue that. I think that scene tells you a ton about the culture of the others in this present moment. Well not only that but you know they go to someplace old as ben said. It seems like they're going to some sort of set of ruins. They're on their way to the right. Exactly but everyone and not the past there on the rate of the poll. But i think that this is a good indication of maybe also looking ahead to what the leader of the island is going to turn out to be and whether or not he is completely good completely moral person how sometimes when you follow the edict of personal letter and to the law that involves maybe having to stare right in the face of something. That is a moral. i think. That's a really intriguing concept as well. And i think it's not. It's not ironic that this is set up on a set of ruins almost saying. Hey this is what could have happened in probably has happened in the past. This is what's happening now. And this is what will happen in the future under leaders like benjamin linus all right. Let's take a quick break here. We're going to stop down just a catcher. Brits men mike. This is zola. Lot right bassey. A ship in the distance. Let me go hang out in there for a little bit. I see ship in the distance. Let's go let's go yada yada our way over to the ship. We'll be right back after this support for this podcast comes from. Cdw on dell technologies cdw g migr agency to a hyper converged. Infrastructure is challenging decaf. Gotta do want to do it. Slowdown frowned cdw. Jeez experts can help simplify your transition. From legacy to hyper converged infrastructure with dell. Emc solutions that offer speed and agility. Have you done it. is it done yet. Why isn't it done yet. It orchestration by cdw people who get it find out more at cdw dot com slash dell emc. Hi i'm trevor noah of the daily show with trevor noah which is also a podcast. Did you missed last night's episode catch up with the daily show with. Trevor noah is addition. It's everything you love about the daily show except for the dimples but we are working on technology to make an audio version of those two. You can listen to the podcast. Monday to friday mornings everywhere. Podcasts are available daily. Show with trevor noah has addition subscribe now okay mic so We're we're we're on our way to the black rock and i think is a sawyer. First time seeing it's like. Hey first time yeah i mean. This is a nice digs. You've been holding out on me. Johnny boy blackrock club is it's very exclusive. I do like locked. Does again pull out a little bit of pedia here. I'm surprised he does not mention mozambique but this time he comes up with a theory that is incorrect. But he does say like. I'm pretty sure they came to the island firsthand to try to mine it for supplies right another thing again. This is just another like the continuity gaps or whatever. They don't bother me in this episode but it did it did. I did notice it for the first time is that. There's just a box that rousseau is going to grab a little while that's like a crate filled with ours is like just sweating right now. Like what are you doing but the crate says explosives on it. Is that what that would coming from. The eighteen seventy s. I'm not sure. Yeah you'd imagine if it'd probably be in britain in spanish because it was. Because i don't i don't think they were heading for the colonies at all. I think it's a good question. Maybe maybe i dunno someone getting someone multi-lingual maybe it says spa in spanish on the other side and they'd sorta like the french canadian they wanna put it in both languages for those that speak multiple tongues. I just think that's great That it's explosive. So they're surveying the black rock and sawyer gets brought to the brig where we're quote unquote benjamin lionesses amok killing them. Mark says all right. Sure whatever you say james and then locks them in the brig with the guy and source of what the hell man. What the hell are you serious. You're gonna you're gonna just trap me in here isn't cool. And then the other guys is screaming his head austerity that he takes the bag us. Would you just shut up. And then it just someone he's never seen before and the music spikes and if you didn't know it yet now definitely don't you know you don't know now you know that this is the guy this is the one it's happening it's real and maybe still like if you're like You know if you're not a deep cut nerd for it. If you haven't put it together you gotta be wondering like all right. Well why does lock think that sawyer would kill this guy and. I think that it's still going to be like if you've watched lost before and you've been watching the show but you haven't been going deep dive territory into it then you at least gotta remember that. Like sawyers whole stories that he took his name. You know from from the guy like they've been subtly reminding us of that in this episode. You know with with the walk and talk with lock with thing behind beside the river of feet. So they've been. They've been reminding us there at this point even the most casual fantastic shit. It's the seeing guy. Yup and they're locked in the room and this is far from a A sitcom trope of they're going to work out their differences in walked out arm in arm no to enters one leaves. Yeah all right so back at the beach side. Fixes the sat phone. That's really exciting. This is the moment where a her was like. What did you think about the fact that she said we're all is. Yeah one thing at a time. I can't do it that way too. Heavy to process as much as we should allow it onto site for this. They are out in the middle of the open with this satphone big secret. So that when kate understandably walks out on them like loudly talking about this they they really have nowhere to go into sites like. Can you keep a senior. And she's like well no. I'm not going to be able to do that. It doesn't look as long as there's no pictures of me going around doing things. I can keep a secret for at least a little while. I think also the fact that she is going to spill the beans in front of juliet. If not for the presence of anthony. Cooper i think there's a very compelling argument that kate deserves. Vp in this not a great streak of episodes for the tough tough tough tough all right so back in the black rock locks so just a nice little moment of like. What are you doing here dynamite. What about you screaming on the other side. Cool cool yeah. It's a it's a fun moment for the two characters who are very secretive in their own. Right and also it's going to be a nice little foreshadowing as rousseau's own involvement in the secret jack scheme that's gonna come up a couple of episodes from now. Yes so we're setting this up. We're we're getting things moving there so she gets the the box of explosives series bible creators. That's what i do think so. Meanwhile we got the penultimate flashback of the episode. Where john locke is sort of just sitting out on the on the hillside. Onesies when somebody's gonna come up to take a seat and have a little stop and chat with. John locke how much time you spend on the island. He just never get tired of that. We haven't been formally introduced. Richard you might have fun. Join you not sure he wanted to embarrass you. Sorry ben knew you weren't going. Kill your own. Father puts you in front of everyone in our camp just so they could all watch fail. Why because when we're back here that there was a man with a broken spine on the plane. Who could suddenly walk again. Well people here began to get very excited because that that could only happen to someone who was extremely special. Doesn't want anyone to think your special. John where you telling me. This event has been wasting our time with novelties. Like fertility problem with looking for someone to remind us that we're here for more important reasons. What do you want from me. I want for you to find your purpose to do. Your father has to go john since. You're not going to do massage. Someone else in your sawyer. Why would sawyer kill my father. He doesn't even know him braiding. This is a scene. Josh that has gained so much weight and significance watching the series. I mean i mean. I think about what richard is sort of convincing john to do in comparison to what i'm look as opposed to back in the day when john is going to convince richard to do something appearing essentially out of nowhere being like. Hey i'm going to be the leader of you in the future. Can you go find me as a little kid. And gary all this stuff. It's it's a nice little balance of that but also this is a bit of psychology into richard. Alpert is right now. Obviously there are things like him saying. Never get tired of the view. I'm assuming he really loves his panel. Talk show is and that's what he's really thinking but obviously that speaks to you know how much time he spent on the island. But i think. Richard's view of ben. I think is so much tied into his condition. The fact that this straw that appears to be breaking the camel's back or the polar bears back for. Richard is ben focusing on quote unquote fertility problems. Even make sense that a man who is immortal would not give a lick about facility problems. And i think ironically enough it is the humanity that ben linus is exploring in that moment that makes him an invaluable candidate to richard alpert. And so it's so interesting. Why he disqualifies sort of based on that notion and feels like. You don't need to concentrate on that. This is more about the sanctity of the island. As a whole the island will outlive. You will outlive all these women. And i want to find somebody who knows that. Yeah really really well put why this got me wondering a little bit more about like why ben is wasting. Everybody's time with novelty projects like the fertility issue. Did you have any thoughts about that. In terms of why. This is such a priority for benjamin. I don't know. I mean maybe this is got me thinking about the the idea of like lineage. And an air. Yeah you know whether it's whether it's like he wants to have a son he wants to. He envisions himself and juliet. Having a child together once this is resolved and this is the person who will inherit the empire or that. It's his daughter. Will produce the air that she gets to continue the line as it were the lioness lines even the name lioness. You know this is a guy who who might be very concerned with that idea of legacy and why. He's doing all of this in his proud full place. In all i actually. I've had that thought and it's going to really tied to next episode. Where benjamin linus wants a family be most demented version of family possible rights like people that are forced to be his family members but coming from a guy who had a terrible family life and make sense and now he wants to be able to sort of create his own family. And i do think that making sure that the people on the island can reproduce and continue to build that family tree for generations and generations to come is paramount for him otherwise he is dealing with a specific number of people that will eventually die out. And then what is he left with. Nobody like he was before. And so i do think while there might be just a power dynamic involved with hey give birth to more my subjects. I do think there is a very depraved. Idea of familial love for men. Linus of this is my family. This we're all on the commune here. In dharma ville you talked about serve that indoctrination but the others beforehand. I want the family to grow. I want to make sure that we are here. And then my legacy is remembered for years and years to come. Yeah it's it's It's really fascinating to chew on all of that and think about I think the idea of family and a sense of wanting to belong that that plagues ben and causes him to do so many things. I think he would borrow a line from jamie lancaster. The things we do for but then take a step back and think about that really monstrous thing that you did not love you l. Listen it's not a member of course lines thinking what i did for love. He's more than a minor key. I do think that the ideas of this of this scene being particularly resonant when you know the richard alpert journey a little bit better and this is one of those ways in which i think a a richard alpert forget like on a more micro level Chronologically lost but just very specifically. What is the richard alpert. Timeline look like strung out. In you know in sequential order up to this point i would be really compelled to look at at this because at this moment this is a guy who was a slave got brought to the island. He gets recruited to be the conciliaory. We we see him. Being working with charles whitmore. Mount a coup had the the others proper takeover the island. You know he's he's working with charles whitmore he as he's working with charles whitmore and i don't i don't think with is in charge at that point. I think it's like he's still like a kid. Be john locke show. I think him and elie. They'll are sort of part of that group that military group that like storms. The island takes jug. Head starts taking out those those quote unquote early versions of the hostels. Yes oh he's he's got like a relationship there. So this is now the fifties and a man named john locke is showing up. And saying you're gonna follow me some day and then he's going to. He's going to go and then lock is going to go and he's gonna say if you don't believe me go to this. This is where. And when i'm born and richards going to see it for himself and then he's going to come back couple years later and check out the in big so this is all true and then he's gonna be unsatisfied with the results. All of that is going to be happening. And it's all like so. All of that. History is in this scene with richard and john and i think like there is you know he's still like i don't know that he's still a skeptic necessarily but he's still not sure he understands that. This person is obviously extremely special because things are going to happen with him. That has not happened yet. But have happened for richard right like he knows that about sawyer to because he meets story in the seventies. so that's that's all very very very much not present in the writing of the scene probably necessarily but very much present in the re litigation of that. I will not only that you know. Richard has a very meaningful line. We haven't been formally introduced to the planet. Think it's a fun tongue in cheek thing like we'll actually they have but i do think cheer point. I think this is richard meeting. John locke for who he is because the two other times he was this rando guy who came out in the fifties and he was like this little baby and little kid who richard wasn't too confident and i think this is the first time that richard sees john locke for the man that he assumes he is going to become so. I do think that introduction actually is quite literal in that he has not really been introduced to. John locke until this moment. I think one of the reasons. It's one of the tragedies of of richard alpert is. He's he spends a large swath of his of his life. Kind of waiting for things to happen and waiting for life to happen in kind of like not even analyzing the possibility that like escape from the island is something that he can do yet. He can leave clearly because he leaves a bunch but he's still under the employee of the island. He can't have a life beyond it and he's here in this moment where he thinks like well. Maybe this will all be worth it. Because yeah john locks a candidate jacob richard and probably one of their coffee sessions like. Oh yeah no. That is a candidate for sure. He could be. He could be a guy here. He knows he specially knows. He's on jacobs radar and so he probably prides himself in this moment of like. He's helping to push lock towards the things that he knows are going to happen with lock because he's going to hop through time he sees all that stuff and then he's going to be pushing some of that stuff into practice in season five when the paradox happens with comes right when he when he goes on quote unquote locks orders to go and talk to john locke And he's going to be very confused about what he thinks. This is all part of it like it's all happening. And that's why he just like goes so crazy. And it's just like grief-stricken and like driven literally insane and suicidal. When he comes to realize that this was all the guy the first person he ever met on this island the malevolence the red wine in the bar right is has been has been man. His present his side. I before jacob so in the scene he's endeavouring to do something really good but it's actually really tragic what's happening here because essentially guaranteeing that this thing will come back. Yeah certain manner of speaking so like last week like the the decision that will come back around exactly the decision that you think is made for the good actually ends up turning out for the bad which again speaks of the point you made at the very beginning of you think you may be making decisions to quash down the bad stuff that might happen but sometimes there's a path that you just can't stray from alright so back the black rock sawyers going to un gag cooper. This is what we heard at the start of the episode. Important john boy and lock like then. You have a knife to my throat. Got me again. So we're going to get sawyer and anthony cooper Finally talking and we're gonna listen to the whole thing From the moment that they start speaking here all the way to the commercial break for the first part sawyer versus sawyer. Guess i didn't raise no dummies. Tell me means that ball headed bastard outside. The door is my saad my son. I'm his father. You do speak english. The island okay. I'm driving down. I ten through tallahassee when benn somebody's slams into the back of my car i go right into the divider at seventy miles an hour. The next thing i know the paramedics is strapping. Meteo gurney stuffy me in the back of an ambulance in one of them actually smiles at me as he pops the i and then nothing just black and the next thing i know i wake up in a dark room. Tied up gagging my mouth and when the door opens. I'm looking up at the same man. I threw out a window. John walk my son. He's dead because you throw him out a window now you survive that but it paralyzed permanently. He's dead because the plane was flying on crashed in the pacific bad news box. I was on that plane. He sure is how it wasn't cripple. We didn't crash in the pacific. We crashed here on this island. You sure it's an island. What else is it little hot for heaven. Okay so we're dead. They've found you play on the bottom of the ocean. One minute car wreck and the next minute. I'm in a pirate ship in the middle of the jungle. If this is hell friend then where are we talk out. He was becoming a nuisance in a given me one of his kidneys never got over cop. Conned combat goes by many names. I've been allen. Suid anthony cooper ted mclaren tom sawyer. Lewis jackson tops. I was young and huck finn was taken and the ladies love. That one made me charming out about one. Two aso josh. Is it just me. This might be. I might be like mandela affecting myself. Kevin tighe ever had like a southern affect china. What happens to me all the time. I always mean to clock it. And like i can't like i think like some sometimes i watched this episode and i think that oh my god. He's slipping into southern accent that he never had before. And this is the real anthony cooper who he is he himself a shape shifter right right like he's not the smoke monster but this do you know who he really or it could be instead a mirroring tactic which is probably easily used by con men to right he sees like this guy with his alabama accent and i like oh yeah i guess i'm a southern gentleman as well but i don't know when he's like when i'm watching it like there have been times where i've watched the southern drawl isn't really there and then i hear it or i watch it and it's like it's like laurel yanni where sometimes i see it. And sometimes they dug a particularly whether it comes and goes the one where i really here it is tom sawyer. Like yeah and i also. It's coming when when a when he's when he goes mary i remember her is how i how. I always hear it whether or not. That's what he's saying. This scene is awesome interros. He 'cause i think that this is this is this was. This is the most evil the most evil person on the show up to this point barnum. There's been nothing redeemable about this guy. So what's about to happen is we're killing that guy. This guy is about to get killed off. And i think it goes back to that idea of what you can kill the boogeyman but there's another boogeyman waiting around the corner. You can kill a demon but it's wacko demon. You know it's it's still you're not. You're not exercising all the demons. From this house there's still poultry. There's going to be poltergeist to and i. It's the first time that i've ever in this moment here in the depths of the black rock in one of the most mysterious parts of the island one of the most significant pieces of mythology is getting wrapped up here. This idea of of anthony cooper as a smoke monster of sort as a as a as a shape shifter in his own right that that john locke is not going to become the thing he hates the most but the image of john locke is going to become the next evil shave shifter right on this show is is really really really powerful on just the transformation on sawyer of realizing what the hell is going on here what it is. That he's recognizing in this man of con- what do you what's your name and the tom sawyer and him putting into together and just like the cinematography in particular that they do a big close in on his face and i would say from huron. Now josh holloway. I don't think i can catch a shot in the next part of this episode. Where he's blinking at all and he can't even let his eyes off this man for because it's finally coming together. This is the one who he's been hunting after so long. You don't need a story or flashback in this in front of it's right there. It's a ghost story. You know this is the way in which sawyer has been haunted his entire life the flashbacks on this man's fate death the history is there exactly and we already know it so we don't really have any other information. I do love her bald headed bastard. That's just a fantastic short term for lock so let's talk about the tallahassee wreck here because we spoke about it a bit with edmund burke back in not in portland is that the others caused the crash. I would say it doesn't time out. But the paramedic that that anthony cooper speaking about some so much like ethan but unfortunately it does yeah. I don't think it's him but it does sound like him. But i think i think for sure i think again like when when ben's like i don't know how he got here You know you brought him here. John no they went and they were like oh john locks here. We're gonna need to manipulate that guy. Go get his dad that simple. That's an interesting pretty ballsy. Call for anthony. Cooper once had to leave tallahassee because he threw his son out a window and probably killed a guy but a few years later i can go back there. I think the heat's cooled down enough. That i can go stake another claim so there is really no surprise to me. That like You know the smoke monster is going to ultimately become known as the man in black very stephen king in that there is the man in black and the dark tower. Who goes by the name randall. Flagg who is also the villain of the stand and this idea. That stephen king is working something out with this character who's existing across so many of his stories. And i think this idea is existing here on lost as well and like a big version of it is happening with cooper this idea of just like this force evil this force of evil that is more elemental than than man. And that. yeah you can kill. It's like really is possession to a certain degree. Gosh what's that denzel washington movie fall where there's like the angel of darkness that is hopping around from person. To person. time is on your side. Yes it is and i think there's there are ideas of that in play here with anthony cooper being someone who's just like such a force of malevolence like beyond steven king type stuff like think like anton chagall force of nastiness and terrible time somehow able to evade recommend any turn but yeah and like like is this idea of this is how this man is acting in the pits of hell. Yeah if he believes that he's here like this like i don't give a shit of awful. I mean think about to turn into like events. Think about some of the people who are perpetrating. Some of the worst evils on our world. today who don't like come down with covert liked denying its existence and then just being like awful about it even in the wake of contracting the like this. That's what this is like. This is the this is the guy who's who knows who believes he knows he's in hell and yet is still acting. This way is so stunning because it's essentially like a bad version of a christmas carol. Right this scrooge. Wake you have a crisp wearing being like Fine burned down the orphanage. Yeah whatever whatever i did then so okay what now. I still got my money and then like okay. So i'm so. I'm gonna die alone. Oh well i've lived a good life but to that point. You just put this idea in my head josh. Talking about stephen king malevolent forces shape shifting. Josh is anthony. Cooper pennywise the clown but i mean that's sort of what's going on. Yeah it's the ability that he is able to take form of fear in so many regards permanently scar people's lives like a sawyer for example got his life torn apart by this person but he just moves on because that's just more stuff that he can feast upon it really is in that regard. I mean he was sort of standing in the sewer coercing little johnny lock to it so he could take prey. Br and take kidney right. And i think that speaks to this idea of him going back to tallahassee. What are they gonna do. Yeah exactly are they going to do. They're not gonna maybe if they do whatever. It is what he has to return every like seventeen years or so right right but i think that there's a because we want to like. I don't know we won. Wake humanize everybody and we want to believe that. Everybody is complicated. And everybody has their reason for being the way that they are so even like a villain needs to have like that three dimensional quality of why they are the way that they are sometimes evils. Just yeah sometimes something awful. Sometimes someone is just awful. And i think anthony. Cooper is a tremendous ambassador of this idea not alone in this idea and i think maybe one of the reasons why if the man in black and the smoke monster fails for people in the in the final balance of this show. It's because maybe it's that attempt to humanize them. And i think we can. We can explore that when we get there further on. But they never attempt to do that. With anthony. Cooper i think it is an astoundingly wise choice because it there there there is. There's a reason why this this episode is great but these scenes in the brig specifically are some of the best on lost is caused. It's it's very human and yet while they are talking about heaven and hell even if that's not where they are there is instantly this very mythical biblical quality to this stuff right that is represented in this utterly unforgiving unapologetic irredeemable man against somebody who believes himself to be irredeemable and his wildly wrong about his own. Self that's the thing as well as this is really an epiphany for sawyer in so many ways. Obviously but i think one of the textual ones is saying. I'm beating myself up saying i. I need to become the person who did all this. This is the guy. I don't think i look you know. Maybe if i'd stayed off the island this is who i could become a murray beating myself up for what i did. Off-island like imagine how much worse it could get. And i think that a lot of this is like the adrenaline stuff. I mean think about what's about to happen. He's not thinking about any of this stuff. Yeah it may be what he ends up chewing on in marinating on and meditating on a little bit as he moves on from here but right now he thinks that he has just been offered up the opportunity to fix everything. And it's not gonna go exactly the way that he wanted to go so we'll talk about that in a little bit. There's the flashback of the episode. The final flashback is is is locked with ben and their leading trying to put me in my place. He's like oh. I would ask and it's fun because you know this is something you think that lock was putting this exclusive club and left behind right. If they left saieed and kate and jack and juliet behind and lock out to be part of this club but no it turns out that ben just discards him like he did the rest of them basically telling your no more special than the people that you left behind even uneven gets to pera john locks online which i can't tell if that's purposeful. I know ben has a lot of intel on. John locke but i don't think he knows his catchphrase. Yeah i don't think so either. Or maybe because he knows about the walkabout maybe troy's and was under their employees or maybe they were able to say. It's like yeah. This guy was crazy. Can't just shouting at me and my office don't tell me when i can and can't troy. Oj yeah could be could be or at least like the ao jays interviewed him. Hey what what. What was up with that guy. They started you like profiling like everyone who john locke has come in contact. Eddie from the commune they talk with. Helen yeah. I don't think it's totally unreasonable. To think that some of the ao jays had is on the eight one fibers in the lead-up to the crap like just like surveying them from a distance or even or even once it happens beforehand right like you know as as ben. We see this in one of us. Where ben asked mikhail to start getting files on them they could they could possibly said. Forget some boots on the ground to do some research while this is going on of like all right. Let's see what john locke was doing before this. Let's see what sort of doing. Oh he did get arrested for headbutting. The minister of agriculture by here before that he shot a nice ban on a shrimp truck. Let's talk more about the exactly exactly. So ben's going to tell locke will leave a trail. Don't bother following us unless you've got your your father's body on your back like noted. Let's close out. Let's go back to the brig without further ado sawyer versus sawyer. Final round somehow. Ever been to. Jasper why you're having you. Yeah i've been jasper. Don't tell me. I'm your daddy. Daddy missed a soya is just right. You don't know who i am. But i know who you and i know what you've done. You had sex with my ma and then you stole my dad's money all the way. So he got angry and he killed by mother then he killed himself is supposed to be you. You wrote this letter. Wait a second. Did you take my name because you were on some kind of revenge kick pre easy. Don't get all worked up. Look iran that con two dozen times. If your mother was one of the her name was mary jasper alabama. I remember She practically begged me to take thirty eight thousand dollars and to rescue her from sarah. Little life mood finished. Look i only took the money. It ain't my fault. Your dad overreacted. If he pulled the old murder suicide then. I'm sure it's down here somewhere. Maybe you could take this up with him okay. Yeah and we're gonna cut there because it's just a lot of choking and strangulation at this point forward but it is it is it is also. I'm thinking for the very first time. Mike as we're talking this through that john locke will die the exact same way that his father. Yes i think that is just so incredibly apt that it happens and also just the symbolic of being strangled as well. Anthony cooper is somebody who not only love to use that throat to guild that silver tongue but also he has had a stranglehold literally over to these men's live and also identified an interesting that is killed with chains from a slave boat considering that again sawyer and locke were both slaves of to this man exactly so i think it's very pertinent but i love that really great. Call out on your part that this is also john locke is going to be someone who loses his voice. He gets cut off from the world and being cut off from his air supply. My god a eighty your. Have you ever danced with the devil by the pale moonlight. You know that's happened. This is like it is just darkness. Malevolence there is something ancient in here. And it's just it's channeled through this awful awful man and it's cosmic and it's so messed up. Dude this is this is fight me. This is one of the very best episodes of anything let alone lost i. This is the most fun. I've had talking about the themes of the show very long time. Maybe i it's just. It's so rich. It's so i think this is probably one of the most satisfying scenes in loss of income. Because again because it's not but but satisfying such a is such. A is such a choice of word. Because i think you're right but it's not satisfying for the for the reality. Nobody's hooting and hollering. Anthony cooper is dead good job sawyer. Because there's some darkness to their of like. He did look where he went. He broke bad in speaking. He did what he swore he would never do again and he was pushed to do so. But i think this is from a plot perspective extremely satisfied because this is a thread has been out there josh. Since the eighth episode of the show back in the fall of two thousand four this thing was out there. And what i love about. It is even when again going back to that. Come in like. Oh it's predictable. This ending is not to have a again. You would think that that that cooper would have this this scroogiest moment raise like. Oh my god. What have i done. He says bla-bla-bla shrugs off what sawyer. Tears the letter up because like he doesn't care if i'm already dead. Send me down to the next level of health exactly but this is the sawyer has poured over and has has officially become his own contract for life. For and actually in anthony cooper tearing up that contract that causes sore to sort of break free from it in a way like signs his own death warrant from that piece. But to cooper have cooper shrugged this off again like you said this is not what sawyer thought it would be thought it would be. He reads the thing inigo montoya style and he gets him groveling. I want my father back you son of a bitch. He doesn't ask but instead cooper's like you're one of many that this has been done to all. I'm really sorry gives the most like pithy of apologies. And then he's he's shrugs off his dad saying his dad quote unquote reacted by doing a murder suicide and and ruining sawyers life. And then on top of that. He tears off his tears up this representation of his past that causes sawyer to go grow. And then there's a beautiful musical moment. Where obviously you know once. Cooper's done locks in and incomes. Our old friend locked out again the day of sex mock music and it's just a brilliant call back to like. Did this almost soaring sense yet. Soaring yet. Sad is an interesting way to describe this scene where this is sawyer. Getting a monkey off his back that has been there for his entire life but at what cost. Yeah but like did he think that that's the thing is like i think for lock. He did. I think he got that off of lock at this moment and i think lock will be blindsided by the fact that there are other monkeys to crawl up on just one monkey. There's a there's a whole army out there. And i think that sawyer is going to feel the depths of this lesson sooner of what i thought i always wanted is not good for me at all. It's not good for this. Was this was very very bad. I gotta i gotta go puke guts up because this was all. There's something about josh holloway's performance. The musicality of it is so unique. And you here in these past couple of clubs especially when he comes to the realization sawyer and cooper as well this is sort of how he and unintentionally got like the conmen. Musicality is so llegado. It's so smooth where you just sort of. Stay on one thing. There's no real pops you just talk through your sentences because you're really trying to convince everyone that your your natural easygoing person so they'll do whatever you want them to do but with a capital t. That rhymes with that's exactly. They'll die on that herald tail. But i think that sawyer in the brig. He is short his gruff. He's blunt and he is percussive ve with all the things like just the way he is then. It is so dan so distinct. Exactly to the to the rhythm. I do you think sawyer. An indifferent universe throws anthony cooper over a down pit godspeed entity cooper's grandchild pops up several years down the line but i think that it's such a different tone and rhythm to this character that again you could tell he's been thrown off rhythm here and the line i've been to don't tell me i'm your daddy anthony cooper. You are his father more than you think he is. Because again i would say that this man determine the course of sawyers live more so than his own father did. yeah for sure for sure. I think also like the music connecting back to lock off once again shows a way to like emotionally musically thematically just on vibe wavelength link. What just happened back to john. That yet this flashed. The flashback is on lock but but shouldn't have been on sawyer. Kosor here's the guy who killed cooper he was. This was an assist. This was it this was this was locked just killed his father lock used this man. He sat patiently. Listened to the whole thing and walks in and sees the body on the floor and thanks sawyer for it's like thanking a gun for firing exactly no. Yeah and i think as well that i love the use of this is that again really prominently imperfectly comes up at the end of day mocking up because this is the full circle moment right ever since. Then lock got duped by this man that he let into his life and ever since then he has been searching for his own sort of form of at. I think at least emotional reconciliation. I don't think he's gonna be like i'm out to kill my father but he just wanted to know why and then once he wasn't given that answer of why he was adamant on making sure that this man did not cause any more misery in anyone else's life and this is an opportunity for him to revisit that john locke with hair frying bang on his volkswagen bug. And being like it did get better. You'll you'll become a better person because of this it's finally over and to your point. The tragedy is it's just getting started for. John locke yeah it's just getting started like potion recaps and it's great and it's great and it's excellent and just like the merry merry from jasper. I remember her. Like i heard it again. It's so evil. Also i know there's the continuity gaffe i forget what sawyers mother's name was once upon a time but it wasn't mary they come here maybe column until i don't know who cares who cares. It doesn't matter when you're in the face of this josh holloway in exceptional actor -tario quinn and exceptional actor kevin tighe exceptional actor is exceptionally directed. This is exceptionally written. It's exceptionally scored. It is so satisfying narrative. We just as much as we are. You know we're we're approaching the end of act one right if we keep at least i keep talking about loss like it's two bucks it's to acts. It's it's before the flash forward it's after the flash forward and we're barreling towards that conclusion it makes sense that achieve antagonised of that first book is dead here and it makes it just makes it all the more powerful an urgent forward to where we are in the show right now and just leaves us with so many powerful dark huge questions about what it means to be alive what it means to be angry. What anger can do for you. Anger does to you. It's huge the ramifications of this. So that's why that's why i feel like it. Satisfying it satisfying. Because it is so bitterly unsatisfied. I love that. Yeah that's pure poetry. And i would love to hear from people as well the first time they were watching this episode. Did they think anthony. Cooper was going to die. Because i wonder if that's a thing as well as to you know. Was this particularly shocking to your point up to up to the stage. Ben was probably like obviously the biggest bad most immediate bad. But someone like anthony. Cooper had been such a huge nemesis of flashbacks bringing him onto the island. Do you think he had a limited lifespan or their chance of bringing like you said like the big act one summer when you play video game writing you face off with the boss halfway through and you're like okay now what happens. Oh there was a much bigger guy puppeteer in this guy the entire time. We're gonna have to face them now. That sort of happens here. Yeah alright oh god. Let's let's let's dig into it like a nice a weird meat. Patty that gillian jacker eating in the next scene. Yes they're like eating something like sausage. Some bore sausage. This leftover like dharma supply like of oven patties. Dr michelle kutaragi board that. they're eating. They missed the burgers shows. Like hey can i talk to you and jackson. Yeah juliette has to be your kids like that's such a great idea enjoy. it's yeah i don't either induct like anything you want to say to me. And it's like all right. Well let me tell you all this stuff that she shouldn't here in this point so juliette has told jack right so this is jack has anything you can say in front of me. You can say in front of her. It's because they're in officially and linked together to take down the others. Yeah i think so at this point. I think that that also is service of if there's like a bit of a time jump post. Do see at this point makes a lot of sense to me that they have They've talked things through a little bit more. Like yeah this has been happening. I'm i don't wanna be any part of it. And also i think maybe we have an opportunity to wipe out the seventy reporter two days back in time and then move from there But yeah so. He's asking her a bunch of questions. Like why tell anyone telling means it. No one trusts you man. Why you talking to her all the time and also and also when i come in you say things like you could save what you want to say to me in front of know just you manners so schedule so saas right now. I'm glad that someone brings up granted you know again. Kate immediately spilling the details if juliette was indeed still with the others. Not a great. Look but. I'm glad. Somebody finally tells jack jack. You're super suspect. Nobody's tip definitely the impostor. I was doing my stuff in electrical audio. I was juliet. Saw me doing my visual tasks. Juliet either. I think she saw a lot of problems. Swiping the card. You know that in the chains and hydra what listen among us if you can somehow get among us loss crossover. We're all the rooms are dharma's stations. I think we're supposed to happen very here for anyway. So ju it's how do we tell her gently nothing as well. So here's here's the thing is that i think. In retrospect i'm gonna say this more efficiently than finally finally comes to an end soon as next episode. I think if there's one thing that is not particularly working for me in this last batch of episodes it's the whole like can we or can we not trust jack arc like you said i understand how in the moment is very invigorating. A black yeah. We really don't know when to trust him but now that we know we can it. Just sometimes it feels like moments like this where it's like all right. We're doing this just for the sake of that. That this doesn't feel necessarily a substantial. I hear that. And i mostly agree and it to play cooper adds to rebrand it i would. I would say that. This idea of like feeling alienated from jack also helps us to feel alienated from a potential jack in the past who was like such a wreck that he could of been doing all the things that he ends up doing in the but as point i think yeah i think may maybe it helps to bolster the surprise of through the looking glass. But it's too that it's to that idea that we were talking about earlier of like but how does that play in. Terms of rewatch ability. And i will concede the point that a lot of the jack step in season three is really i walk and maybe is a little bit dulled on watch number two and it's actually kind of similar to never man. I was going to go down on point with jack. Bauer we don't jack barrell one jacket a time. That's my new show. That's coming to networks. Yeah it's going to be canceled after multiple attempts to save. Its life this thing that let's go to the end. James has just come out of the black rock puked guts. New guys in the back. You can his guts out sore throws up and john locke is gonna come up to him and we will. We will ride this thing out. You can go back now. Why did you do. You ruined my life and you ruined yours. And he had it coming. Juliet is a mole. What she's working for ben. Who sent her back to find out which of our women were pregnant three days from. Now there's going to be right on the beach and they're going to take them. They say they don't want anyone to get hurt. You telling me so you can warn the cab. I'm not going back going back on the color. I was never undercover james on my own journey. Now even juliette is a mall. Ain't gonna believe me. I've been saying essence. She showed up there. Believe you now. I said true true that he threw you know that you are cripple anymore The brig is the best episode of loss. Don't well knowing your history of ami it's gonna end up becoming a thing later. turn the live like cable. You made this claim now. Oh wait it actually turns out to be a thing in the future. The brig is the best episode of lost. Do not at me hyper hyperbolic. Obviously but like there is. This is such an this immaculately crafted episode. John locke was immaculately conceived. Maybe not but this. This is an immaculately crowded so as he would tell you this that happened. The we've talked so much about sawyer. I don't know what more there is to say. A lot of the stuff we've talked about is very present in that final conversation but this is all about. I say this is this is this is lock. The past two scenes were about slayer this is about lock and i think just to look attitude about this scene about this his his life just two words not anymore that that's all that's all it is because it's not anymore. Animal mammal ruin my life not anymore lock. It's very meaningful. Whenever lock in the past told someone about his condition and him coming clean to sawyer about it is maybe not necessarily meaning like. Oh i'm bringing you into this inner circle but i think more so him being like i'm no longer that guy who was in the wheelchair i don't give a lick if people know about and about that from me because i'm not that present anymore. I'm now john back. I'm very telling that the final the final movement of this episode is john locke with crocodile. Lock playing underneath which is like classic bad. Which i believe this to jim. Fell's point i believe the last time we actually heard. That song was all the way back in dais x. so it's a great symbol of how previously then. He was very much driven in his journey. Whatever he thought that was and it took all this time to bring him back to that point crocodile. Lock instead of like. What's the theme. That's playing underneath him in in london again you know. And so we've come a long way from that. A lot of these powerful lost episodes and with that leg mournful raging. Why have you done this to me. Aesthetic and so this is this is. John locke with that with that that mystical music playing underneath them. John locke with purpose. John locke who is driven a john locke who is all about the future who is not thinking about the past anymore literally picking up his dead father who broke his back onto his back and moving forward with the weight of the world office shoulders. It is exceptional for all those reasons. It is also incredibly effective in in making. You think that lock is now on this unbeatable journey so that you much like e. r. broadsided when he gets shot by ben at the end of the very next episode and left for dead and it is. It is the exact summary this idea of like you. Don't just beat a final boss and it's over you know it doesn't work that way. Things are more complicated than that. Yeah but it's it's exceptional. And i think in the ways that this is an episode where tragedy has just powerfully struck for sawyer tragedy has struck for john locke as well in many. Let's be on. Doesn't he does not read it that way and for him. There is a there is a world in which this is just like nothing but triumph. Yeah and i think that it's also the another thing to take away from this scene as well. Is you know lock giving slur. The tape recorder. Maybe we'll talk elsewhere. Where exactly that. Time travelling tape recorder but he essentially puts himself out to sawyer now as a free agent. He's infiltrating the others. He's not a spy he's done a mole a i'm on my own journey now. Do that. Juliet is a mole. Yeah and i think that again. Giving that fantastic quinn. Like depot sound of does so prominently but brewers more. This is going to inform a lot of. John locke as well like he's definitely going to help people in season five for instance. He's going to help the group of navigate through time travel but here on out lock is going to become the person who was all the way back in walkabout the mysterious man who sort of played by his own rules. He has now become that person again. He's finally become the person he's put himself forward as all the way back in and walkabout. And i think that's extremely meaningful granted. He is going to become much more of a rival. But jack and season four considering they're going to have opposite values in mind but right now john locke is essentially said to eight one five. He's like that. Part of my life is done including those people. I am ready to shed. My skin out into the jungle hopefully joined back with the others again and become that special person they want me to be but for now i am done eating borne hunting boar on a beach man. It's just it's awesome. And i think for for me as like a john locke stan who loves this character warts and all. I think that this is just. It's it's really of rewarding ending but just an endlessly rewarding episode. It's it's it's value has only increased in my estimation talking through. Winning was already sky. High finishing the degree. Because i think that in retrospect you come in like. Oh this is a big episode. Obviously the anthony cooeperation happened than anthony. Cooper dies but there is so much two and a half hours podcasts. Content worth baked into thematic structure. The character stuff that is so much of a richer episode even beyond. Its twist that i think. Even if you come in knowing what's going to happen it is an excellently crafted. An incredibly well performed episode. I mean the stuff in the black rock is almost like its own star. Trek play or like a no exit or a waiting for godot just with the darker ending of these three characters with very separate motivations and psychology interacting with one another. It's an episode. That also takes some time to stop down and not stop down in a way of like a catch twenty two or a. Do see might stuff still happens but it stops down to to bring us back to these characters. I'd have been missing for some time. It's just. I such an incredible time. And i think this is going to be the not the kickstart that we needed because again i think we had fun with the previous few episodes but this is something that raises season three to a whole new level. We're activated right now. Mike we're activated a very big way. Let's let's cut to some feedback here quickly before we start wrapping things up the great riley wigmore writes in and says i was afraid when i watched sawyer kill locks bother for the first time that it was going to go down a generic root of sawyer killed even if it was a bad person in emotionally charged. There's no going back from killing. He's bad again. I absolutely love how his moment plays for sawyers character and how it wraps up this part of his story and allows him to move forward from here and even if it does affect him as a character he doesn't regress it happens and then he moves on and continues on his character journey and his I mean hopefully my head cannon. They looked at what they did. With charlie and season two and said let's not do that again to rallies point you can you can go back in a manner of speaking but you can use that as a learning experience to move forward rather than sort of like bringing a character back to a really dark place i really unsavory place and then really doing nothing with it almost like forgiving and moving on realizing as others the mistake like you said this is going to profoundly i mean sawyer in through the looking glass for example it's kind of a broken distracted man still but knowing what he does become this has to be a seminal point to getting to the floor. I think that way in which to view it is like a recovering addict who feeds their addiction and then comes out on the other side of it being like what did i just. Oh god i broke my streak. Or whatever and i think that the way that he carries this forward as he continues as a character is like a lot of shame over. What just happened a lot of like a lot of emotion over what just happened. A lot of feeling like an inability to like share. What just happened with anybody again. So a loneliness. That comes with it. And i think those are the ways i wouldn't call it regression. Necessarily i think that it's like i think that a lot of progress and positive change comes out from from what's happened here but i think it's shameful moment for him in a way that like he knows like he feels it. He feels a very in a very like lonely way. But i think that he feels that pain and it's not just because he has not yet. I talk actually briefly about. Because i wanna talk about that but the behind the curtain has actually other number one speaking of p. So apparently 'cause there's there's featuring three d like loss in a day where they sort of track through the production process of an episode and basically lindelof originally described the concept of for a scene in which sawyer gets confront quote unquote the real slayer. Obviously a bit different from the break. In this case that takes place in a well which john locke will find himself down a couple seasons from now. And apparently sawyer would meet anthony. Cooper and richard malkin and sawyer. Will he'll say like he recalls malkin from somewhere which might indicate that actually malkin was the real sawyer obviously ya. This was the the the much better episode but thinking about the initial draft of. It's fun to see how we went from sawyer and richard malkin down well to the brig you guys can do better with richard market and you could try at least try. This was not good. That would have been interesting. Sort of rule of threes with balkan the wrecks shows have been raised by another shows up in an active episode. And then really come back yeah. I'm glad that he didn't come back here. I would've liked for them to figure it out. But i'm glad he didn't come out here. That'd be would be really bad from riley's rivals to find find. Johnson writes in. Why does ben bring lock at all. The lock is a threat to his power and position. Why does he even bother to let john joined them. Is it just manipulate and embarrass him. I think some things are even out of a leaders control to a certain extent and look at what ben just had locked. Do benfield lock on the ropes. I don't think ben finds lock nearly as threatening at the end of the man from tallahassee as he doesn't the beginning and so i i. There's there's there's that but i also think like the if the people are as excited about john locke as they seem to be getting rid of john locke is not just as easy snapping your fingers. Yeah i mean that's that's true as well that like getting rid of lock could have the people questioning him and ben. Then's main motivation. I mean not main motivation but definitely one of them. It's like keep the people happy or at least under the guise of ben as this benefactor leader with an iron fist. And so yeah. I do wonder if getting rid of lock. Getting him off. The table would raise maybe too many questions that might get people suspicious of ben. This is from daniel. Brennan guys like the decision to keep lock off screen for several weeks to set up the brig and the man behind the curtain. I will vote. It's so interesting because like you said we're gonna get an immediate follow up to block next week but then there's going to be a little bit of a disappearance for lock again until the end so it's almost like a can necessarily answer. Do i like this gap and more. So maybe i'll put a pin in this and address in our season three feedback show of what we feel about the use in particular timing of someone like john locke because his appearances in season three and real prominence are sort of spotty and i think in comparison to seasons one and two. It's a definitive choice. And it also compared to his roles in seasons four and five or again he is going to play a major role. It definitely is an outlier. Yeah i like though. I think like a lot of the power of this doesn't doesn't occur without sort of the mysterious aspect and i also think that you know this is an instance where like keeping lock and remove. I think is more successful even on the rewatch than it is with. And i also feel like in comparison to things like Expose or the other forty eight days or maternity leave. I'm fine with them. Not necessarily addressing like things that connected back to the main island with the exception of the tape recorder because it also shows that again the others are off on their own mission. And how much of a weird cultish mysterious group. They are that even with all the stuff with naomi and desmond's flashes and everything going on with juliet. They're off doing their own thing. That does not necessarily cross paths with eight one. Five until lock literally does mike. What stood the twenty three points. Let's get into the points and let's just you know the easy one out of the way. All the elderly people are going to tony cooper from both me and from us. That's five points to recognize. Think i guess we'll see. What the coma toes cooper and season sex but this might be a wrap for him incentives appoints. Yeah we'll see but if it is. Then he goes out with an astonishing negative eighteen anthony cooper so he is our anchor at the moment causes to him as picket by with negative ten. I don't. I don't think anyone is going to come even close to rivalling anthony with the hell before the end of season three. I think he's got a guy. I think is is the the basement level right now. He is in hell. he's in a little hot. But you want to go to hell. You wanna go to hell. You ain't enjoy era your lovely sweat lodge here. So let's let's go to the mvp because this is really interesting. So i'm going to my first point here to lock. I know that he does not have as much of a little direct hand in this episode of someone like sawyer. But doesn't he. You know lock lock alternately succeeds in his goal and like you said even though what looms afterwards is going to be quite larger. He ends up succeeding in this goal. You know. I think he's going to reap the benefits more next episode. So maybe this little bit of going into the man behind the curtain as well but lock is able to finally do this not anymore. So i'm gonna give him an mvp point here totally fair. I'm giving a point to sawyer. Even if he's coming to you know if he's feeding the beast. I think he is based with some really difficult stuff here. I feel i feel. I feel really horrible for him in this episode. I think josh holloway delivers an exceptional performance. In this think i think it's by far the deepest. We have seen him. Honestly since the original confidence man episode have we have we know. Josh holloway is incredible and he brings what he what he has to interpret the character of soya but i do not think we have seen him give as much of a nuance and frankly beautiful performance since we first found out about the g. sawyer. You know it's hard. I'm trying to. I'm trying to think. Is there anything that really nothing really right. Outlaws is a good one too because we have the duality of him with duck it and like him to as he does versus the smoothness yet conflicted. -ness of the i never game but again when it comes to like plumbing the depths of this character i think it is tough to things like sawyer saying he deserves to get tortured or him watching. Kate read the letter back to him. I think about him nearly dying in. I do because your eyes freckles. All of that. I think is really just nothing rivaled. This is just this is just you know some series best acting for anybody on the show. Let alone all right. I'm going to give a point to richard alpert here. Because if we're talking in the laki terms about him sort of getting people to succeed on his goal. We talked about it before workshop. It's going to be able to to get the ball rolling against ban. Any starts this very important relationship with lock. He's the one that was sort of pulling the strings behind the guy pulling the strings here. Yeah i think that's fair. I gotta give my second. Mvp points this week. I'm going to get my second one to say. He fixes the radio. We'll call it the right guy. They called the right guy fixed. The phone saieed is once again proving why he's our. Mvp leader so far and to that point he is out in front with three points over hurley at the moment and he's clocking in at a loss number twenty three and who is precisely drool all right and i think he will end the sees it on twenty three though i think he has an others neck with his name. All over it coming up a little while from now we'll see there's so many points to give out. There might be hard. Let's this one. It's very easy for point completely agree this is this is this is a score buster for me if we were going to. I mean like you said like is necessarily perfect episode of loss there. There are some things that aren't exactly amazing. And i do think you could. Maybe like the weakest part is arguably the story stuff back at the camp. And i don't think it's so flagrantly off the mark that that it would bring it down to even a four point one thursday so much incredible stuff going on every cylinders firing from performances to directing to writing in this these big three characters or even incorporate like a ben and richard alpert as well. It's just such an incredibly important episode for not only these two characters but lost and just made me feel something and made me feel something everything and i have to make. I have to make a four point two. Because of that and our audience our audience was maybe a little more across the board then volt and maids three point nine overall actually four. I check the scores again. It's a four from the okay. So so i think that's our highest audience score so far because i believe flashes before your eyes was a three point nine and we we've flashes four point one unless oh really okay. Maybe maybe i'm an yeah. It's a four point one thousand. Maybe i you know what i went back in time and try to change the audience score and then thank you. Talking flashes is still the top of the season right. it's still number one for the season. it's four point. Sixteen with the four point sues from you and me on the brig and the four from the audience. It's a four point. Twelve a for the brig so it's the second best of the season so far i think after revisiting both of them very recently i think in my official rankings i have flashes higher. Put the brig again. The break has a canonical payoff. That flashes because it's so new doesn't have so it's sort of like it's a little bit like apples and oranges and what their intentions are but again this. This really brought me back to season. One of lost. I so many reasons and that pay off. Just really catapults side episode. Almost like with the way exodus will always be my favorite episode of the show is because there's so much pay off their from an entire story lies season's worth of storyline. Let me let me tell you something interesting. You ready the brig which is behind flashes before your eyes is ahead of every single episode of a of of season. Two of lost. I think except for maybe no. It's head of to say no to the road. I think was not more of a mixed bag. But i do not think maybe had as high of a universal commendation ahead of two for the road. I believe it is abc's in one only behind the pilot walkabout and i would. I would guess this is our is our number one yes exodus is our number one. It's followed by flashes. no exodus is number one. It's followed by the pilot. It's followed by flashes before your eyes. It's followed by walkabout the briggs top five lab. Well we'll we'll see we'll see at the moment at the moment and so. I think that that is what speaks so highly. Not just of this stretch that we're getting into but also this this very specific episode. My feeling is in in in re examining this one and thinking about it hand in hand with all those episodes that i just listed. I know that i put walkabout as the number one episode of lost that t. Hr rang. and. I still stand by it as like this really represents everything that's great about lost. I think if you were to put a gun to my head right now Because the gun wasn't loaded. I would i would. I got nothing but hype man. I'm the briggs biggest hype man at the moment the fact that even if it doesn't stay this way and it won't stay this way but the fact that right now it's top five. I love that. I think is so deserved. I think this episode is exceptional and the first time in a long time. Mike that we've gone nearly three hours on just a single episode of the might be similar runtime next week josh because we have the man behind the curtain and here it is finally the benjamin. Linus flashback episode. And this is what i. I'm very intrigued to look at it for a number of reasons because back in the day i normally were doing sort of like our episodic round robin stuff. The curtain was in my top ten episodes of lost ever. This is an episode that has always even more than than the break has profoundly stuck with me and permanently made benjamin linus one of my favorite lost characters have not scripted characters of all time and i am so so so excited to get to it for so many reasons you know we have been wondering for so long what has been story to the point. You brought up before like what's the deal we get it a bit in this episode and we find out how just truly demented ben is with a heart we get the first introduction of quote unquote jacob and cabin makes its appearance here and that ends with john locke shot on a pile of bodies. It's it's a. It's a bananas episode and it's fantastic. Follow up to this. When like you said we go from the triumph of john. Luk walking back to ben. Lyons with his father's body strewn over his shoulder to john locke possibly becoming a body himself amongst this pile of corpses. Yeah i remember walking away from the man behind the curtain like holy shit like just like in this huge like in a totally different visceral way than this episode. Yeah 'cause this is more for like a long con in terms of like a lot of tastic payoff for characters. This is more so again going back to life flashes before your eyes. They did something so cool. They did answer a question that we've been wondering for so long but there's so much new information beautifully presented that it's so well done can't wait we're wearing. We're in a really really incredible stress. We are in the best stretchable. Yeah so if a nearly three our podcast about the fourth to last episode of the season doesn't do that for you. I don't know what to tell you so. Get your feedback into the man behind the curtain. We're gonna drop that next week. Down the hatch at post show recaps dot com. Make sure you're sending in your ratings as well your scores your four point. Two stars for each episode. If you want to keep the conversation going with us might suggest the post show recaps patriot program where we've got our discord at the dollar level where we have a very lively discussions about not just lost about so many other things as we are recording. This a very lively marvel cinematic universe. Lot discussion biting news. It's good to be a pop. culture family. Got to watch some new marketing stuff. Come out that gives out very very exciting rumors. Then come on you talk about a very episode of exciting episode of lost mike. Is there anything else you'd like to get off your chest about. The poster recaps patron distraught. Nope i will. I will just say if you want to find out that inside joke. It's where i've been waiting a week to. I will not finish until everyone goes onto the patriot and checks out these circumstances behind that reference. All right sounds good. Mike what else do you have going on here. You filled in for me on mando with kevin mateo. Just telling you about another like simultaneously. Gut wrenching yet. Exhilarating episode a television mando is really about another strong stretch of episodes. It is firing on all cylinders so it was sad to be without you latonya but it got to pinch hit with kevin always really enjoy getting to like monologue for minutes on end about just how frigging fantastic. Mandalorian is right now. Also i call this all star week. Because i also of course. I'm covering star. Trek with the great jessica lease we are going into our big two part episode from the first like mid season two part episodes of star trek discovery yet. I have watched it already. All i will say. Actually it's it's already out by the time this is coming out. All i will say is actually has a lot in common with flashes before your eyes in many ways so for friends of loss. I think you'll get the reference when star trek discovery. And of course jackson. I will be back together recapping at all this weekend. Sounds fun. alright and we've got tons of other stuff happening here both on the main feed as well as the patron feed. Whether it's push recaps theater talking about that thing you do. Community building is happy gordon. Holmes talking about remedial chaos theory yet. Another thing that links to sort of flashes before your eyes and another episode. That's considered top shelf so just like a lot of great stuff happening in the podcast world right now really excited about everything that is going on super pumped to get back into some lost next week with the man behind the curtain until then everybody take care bye-bye.