Welcome to the protein podcast you are you listening resembling protease in having a very niche chen ward ability to assume different forms is playing great diversity overrun versatile aw hey there. Thank you for tuning into the premium podcast. My name is mark. Francis and i am going to be your host. This is a show about change. There's never been a time in the entirety of human history where the breath and depth and speed of change that we are experiencing has been anything like what we're experiencing now. The good thing is is that we are great at adapting to change but the speed of change is definitely accelerating and i think it's good every once in a while to take a beat and to to take a look at what's really going on doing that. These days can be unnerving. Anna can be hard to know if you're going in the right direction. It can be hard to know what the right i choice. I want this show to be a place where you can go to hear about how things are changing learn about. How people are dealing with those different types of change have twelve episodes plans for the first season. Each episode will have a theme based on a specific kind of change and have a guest on related to that theme. The first show is about adaptation. It's about making changes in the face of an uncertain future. We're going to tackle climate change in this first episode. I have an outstanding guest expert in climate change adaptation planning. We had a very interesting conversation. I think you'll enjoy it that being said <hes>. Let's get the show started. Thank you for joining me for the first episode of the protein podcast. I'm i'm joined today by h._b._o. Peach he is an economist statistician and most recently. He's been doing a lot of work in climate change inch adept in planning so hey bill. How're you doing today. Why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got involved with adaptation planning kmart anymore i'm on yelp each and i <hes> have worked for several years in the energy area <hes> energy conservation measurement valuation verification nation particular but also planning also low income from social justice angle about two thousand eleven ought to be honest engineer had been working on the for several years trying to get me to take climate change very seriously and i kept putting off because <hes> we were so busy with <hes> with with the energy stuff and that was enough that filled the whole day and also within the terms and conditions of our projects that i i listened but i didn't do anything but then in the two thousand eleven i co wrote a paper was a nuclear engineer on the climate program since that time it's become the major framework within which i see all the other work that i do <hes> you can't talk about social justice without dealing with a change you can't talk about energy efficiency without talking about climate adaptation and mark as you've said it's happening very quickly. Mike calculations show that it's accelerating so for me. It's one of those darwin questions you know like <hes> you know darwin's picture of health how organisms evolve everything is in interaction with everything else some organisms evolve and adapt and can handle new conditions and can actually thrive under new conditions that many organisms organisms don't and so from that that kind of perspective. I'm interested in <hes> survival events of the animals and plants that are friendly to us that seems like a laudable rational commission. That's <hes> worth talking about well. It's all at risk right now so it's very important to prepare and to adapt. I believe we'll have more money today to work on things than we will have in the future because as the climate crisis <hes> accelerates intensifies <hes> we'll have trouble local producing food. I'll have trouble with people with health conditions living and we'll have trouble with our built infrastructure unless we they are very quick now to adapt and build for each areas climate change in future so what actually goes into and who was is actually doing the climate adaptation planning. Where's that happened well. Here's the thing you know if you were outside of it. You were thinking of it. It would think well. There's some serious planners. Maybe sort of like a some kind of socialist department of planning or something. That's being all this hard planning work and that's not happening. Nobody's doing that <hes> but what is happening and it's much more <hes> free market than that is that all over the country in areas that are so-called blue areas areas in so called red areas mostly city government sometimes county governments where they have big county governments rarely state governments like in the state of washington california oregon. You are doing <hes> climate planning also structures that are responsible for parts of <hes> infrastructure by <hes> electric guests and particularly water utilities are in the lead are trying to ensure that people will have access at for affordable water clean water affordable clean energy and also <hes> people are trying to come up with ways to reduce the number of coal plants even though it means writing off existing investment or major a utilities who are very reluctant to write off investment. That's the next forty years but shouldn't there are ways to put this together so it's not any kind of zero zero sum game. I mean in the ambulance zero sum game but right now. We're in a part of it. That's not and where we can set up a planning you take a city for example example large city cities generally don't have much money for a new projects like a new big infrastructure projects like climate projects but if you look at city budgets and you look at the money that flows through city these huge just flowing through all the time so what people are doing is taking an existing department department say you have department of disaster preparedness of small to name a disaster preparedness and climate change and then you integrate it climate functions into that the pos- you have building code while you can make some small changes in the building code to begin to make buildings more energy efficient. Let's say that you're in an area like san francisco where the water will be rising over the next fifty years and where you have because california's put real dollars into climate planning manning work they have they have models which show that arts of san francisco will be underwater by about twenty fifty so many council passes a an ordinance. Just says says <hes> there will be no public dollars spent on buildings building improvements like say new police station or new fire station something like that or replacement not one in any area where the climate bat showed that with flood maps show be underwater in by twenty fifty unless you can come up with a really really creative design that will show how you're going to handle the water problem so there's a new police station in a part of san francisco right near the water about four blocks in it's built built and all they did was the building actually starts with the second story and the first story is just an area where you can do parking right now but eventually pillars or something that's right and they also put a water wall around it. That can be added to in forty years if you want to so you're building building. It's going to ask asked me one hundred years one hundred hundred twenty years something like that you already taken the water into account. There's a city in california that they realized there about ten miles in from the ocean but because because the way the <hes> the land connected under underground the con- structure of the land walks and things underground the center they were going to build old and new parking structure and their city the calculated that within the next forty years the center of their city's gonna be underwater even though they're in from the ocean so that will they'll still be land between them and the ocean but because the city is a little bit lower and the way the the walks connect underwater so just building up on a hill known city and they're going to gradually moved their buildings. That's the nature of this. You know you would love to see grand projects and big big things happening incremental steps towards a better situation in moore's right and injured. There's time for people to <hes> pocket through as long as we keep going in the right direction pocket through make sure all the different interests are satisfied spied met you can use the climate dollars to build more fair job structures of jobs and you fair distribution of income <hes> because almost all the clients stuff has to be local you can't you can't do it by sending money out of state. You have to do it right there. So that means you're hiring hiring people locally and that means you can integrate people who are often left out to some degree i mean you got you and you can take care of all the different groups and all the different social groups classes cisa income levels and try to bring everybody through and i think that's what we're doing. I don't know that we'll win. There isn't anything else that makes sense and there's nothing that i would they did yeah. That's really great and i'm glad that <hes> lenders people working. I'm glad you're working on it. So we've dumped a bunch of carbon into the air. At this point. We're at levels of four hundred ten parts per million and rising. It's the highest concentration of c._o. Two in the atmosphere in the last s. eight hundred thousand years no matter what even if we were to get to zero emissions today that level of carbon in the atmosphere really does indicate that we can expect a warming trend to continue. Is that accurate yes in it. It's <hes> more extreme than has been thought in the past <hes> what's already been dumped means. We will have <hes> erosion of coasts. We will have fires in the forests. We will have a difficult <hes> situations for food production in many areas that we have relied on produce food. There will be a change in the animals in the in the ocean from those was there we rely on to those that we don't there will also be disease and there will be invasions of various kinds of species. That's just all built in and if we stop everything today it's got at least one hundred years. Maybe quite a bit longer than it so when you're estimate how much hotter is it going to get is the atmosphere ear atmosphere temperatures. Are they gonna rise by two degrees or are they going to rise four. What what are you expecting. What are you planning for well. The problem is it. It doesn't stop. It's got enough noushin in the system that we could easily be <hes> two degrees or forty degrees. I think that for for for an accurate estimate we would need to bring in a climate scientist. I am okay. I do calculations but <hes> i'm not a climate scientist. A sociologist and applied statistician titian an economist so on mike occupations are rough calculations and i'm not following some of the standard methods. I'm trying to here's newer methods that have been are being developed a work with climate problems so i mean it's just so just to kind of frame. There's been these climate systems. They've existed for a long time. I'm we've evolved inside of them and now we're threatening those systems and those systems once they start to break down. They don't break down in a vacuum. There's many interrelated aided system so you end up with these cascading effects those are because of the the the loose nature of their relationships modeling this change and predicting what all is going to change as you have. These different interrelated systems enter into these crises. It seems very hard to predict what's going to happen and in the future in your work you describe <hes> a change of structure which makes making those predictions even harder than they were already. Can you describe what that changes. Structure was sure econometrics any standard econometric problem relies on a <hes> a setup for the problem which which is a certain structure certain context certain assumptions about the way the world operates and <hes> those are okay as long as the structure doesn't change john you where i see a change in structure and approximately the year two thousand is if you take eating degree day data from any airport in west and the north or the east and south as far as atlanta you'll do a regression analysis to develop an equation and using that equation and you can plug in a value of zero zero and you can tell when heating degree days go zero in your occasion. It's a kind of easy easy. Calculation suggests that any <hes> ersan trained in business or or a social science or physical science can do you just have to be through. Maybe a year and a half of statistics. You can get a good estimate of when dan year area is going to be more like orlando than it is right now as you do this calculation if include all data going back to when weather the data. I started to be collected for your local regional airport first calculation. You might have a seventy or fifty readings in it for one for each year and i'll give you a value of maybe two hundred twenty two three hundred thirty years to win you. When you get to zero heating degree days for your area but you you have the climate eight of orlando. Is that what you're saying. Is that what that means. That's right. That's right. That's one year local bunny. Rabbits get replaced by alligators. Okay okay and in the meantime as you're building towards that you're going to be invaded by ticks. Mosquitos and other things your local flora and fauna will gradually change on the ways to this point when you get to this point then you're not going to need energy for heating you will need energy for cooling. That'll be hot enough already right that. She don't mind g. for heating. Let's say you start. You have seventy years of data and then you cut it you say okay. Let's just run with the most recent fifty years the most recent thirty the most recent twenty most town most recent eight as you change the number of years you'll find a point about the year two thousand in which he estimates commits shift that shift is because we can't use the weather data the way we've always used it you know if you work for a utility or you work in a <hes> buildings science it typically used thirty years of back data and an average debt and then you'd get sure your weather expectation for the future sure utilities have now found that you can't do that. I don't know of any utilities that are still using thirty years but some are using ten years of data for their calculations. I've gone down to eight years and what happens. Is that that year in which you reach zero heating degree days shifts back from three hundred thirty years or two hundred twenty years is to eighty years if you use the the most recent eight years because each of the last eight years has been mainly high temperature comparison to all years in the past we we number would happen wasn't understood how quickly it would happen. There's been a change in structure happened about the year two thousand and what we were told just a few years ago would happen and maybe a couple of hundred years now we can we can do the calculation and it's going to happen in about eighty years now. The problem is that this trend and in the data is is still there and we don't know what will happen. There might be other black swans and that data and in the future. I mean the nice thing is we contract at your two year and update our calculation location and <hes> you know the projection might dance around a little bit from eighty years. Maybe one year ago up to eighty five the next year down to seventy five. I wouldn't be surprised at all that we end up up with forty okay so so let me just ask you this question because you know and this is devil's advocate stuff but you know i went to orlando this year. It was very nice in the wintertime. I didn't have to scrape my windshield it. Why is philadelphia being the temperature of orlando or or seatac being the temperature orlando. Why why is that problematic problematic. Well you know i think i don't want to say that. It is necessarily a terrible because i've been to orlando also hits. It can be nice in the wintertime and people live in orlando so are happy there. We need to be able to adapt and what you're what you're suggesting. I think it's not exactly a double acid advocates so okay. All this is happening. We can't do anything about it because even if we did everything we could right now would be too little too late so so we will get to the orlando in about maybe forty eight years so what we need to do is be looking at our built environment and our how we produce food. We should be <hes> <hes> sending people right now. From maine down to south carolina because main will soon be south carolina to learn what the crops will be successful in that area and what growing techniques will yield the best price what what plant same thing with <hes> philadelphia we should be looking at orlando and in places between orlando and south carolina and see how people get by what their life is like how their buildings are built. We need to transform the build infrastructure to have those kinds of buildings in that kind those kinds of agricultural practices and also expect replacement of the kind of trees that we z. Will orlando be liveable at that point. If well see that's the other thing that has to be thought through two and yes i mean i think orlando will be just like some place. That's much hotter down in latin america but latin america will probably not be liveable since the central american areas all those people will have to migrate up here and that's what leads to the climate refugee concerns that you've written about previously yes yes see. I think that <hes> we're only at the beginning now now. The christ so-called crisis at the border right. Now is not a real crisis. It's a crisis made by a particular president who who was trying to create a dramatic situation suasion. We have the resources with migration right now but many of those people are being driven out by a inability to grow their crops that economics assistant there anymore with the with increasing heat and of course the the meltdown of their national states because globalization the weakening of national national states in the rise of criminal gangs make them very unsafe places so we have people coming up we still have the resources to deal with that and we can be humane and decent with people it won't stop the process underway can't stop for at least a hundred years and probably two hundred three hundred years even if we did everything right so we will have international migration in the millions and millions and we will have internal migration from some of the south western eastern states or northern states so i hear what you're saying so what you're saying is <hes> pennsylvania should start building a wall. No i think there has to be planning though <hes> we need to be not only providing housing. We have a housing shortage. The united states right now how affordable housing and we need affordable housing not just for the people who are here now who should be taken care of and who must be taken care of. We also need to be building for immmigration. If you're an northern cooler state you will receiving <hes> in migration from latin america and from southern states like nevada western states. <hes> you know it's it's get uncomfortably hot okay for it's not just being hot because you could adapt to that but it's the food won't grow and the animals will change this process will exacerbate certification in certain areas messing with solar in the rain and the wind patterns can be a real problem yes in the earth's when it dries it that it doesn't wouldn't accept the moisture. They're just comes down. Moisture runs off. It's <hes> you know just like in <hes> central valley of california. We have a rise again a valley fever. Now that hasn't happened happened since the dust bowl days but now it's coming back again <hes> so we'll have these <hes> diseases. The peta tech is spreading across from the eastern seaboard across the country danke. <hes> there's a bunch of stuff. That comes comes a lot of that those things in that the peta tick if it fight you for many people about three months later you cannot eat meat and you cannot look at me for the rest of your life. It's queer queer. We're a result but that's <hes> that's another just another. It's like the lime tick it. It's a different one. Okay so so we've identified. We have this change of structure and there's these potential negative consequences. It's not gonna require adaptation someplace else you know will be more problematic than others and again the exact systems that we're gonna break down. It's hard to predict and so these are all questions that have to be answered and that's this deep uncertainty <hes> that we have to address and it it makes it almost impossible using what i understand to be traditional statistical methods when you have that deep uncertainty. It's nearly impossible to predict what the future's going to look like. That's what i thought the decision making under deep uncertainty book was very interesting and continue talk a little bit about how that framework works in terms of being able to be useful in looking looking to the future for utilities to be able to make the correct type of investments for your municipalities and state governments to be able to budget appropriately the to deal with what might becoming one of the interesting things is that <hes> utilities are engaging by matching jockey oceans. I have done our wherefore to two one was a combined electric and gas utility wasn't electric utility. Probably people in the forefront of this are the water utilities who have to ensure water supply to into the future. They're planning as a longer range planning than the electric and gas utilities and they have encountered this. They've engaged age this problem in a very serious way. There's a group of twelve water utilities including a they'll adelphia las vegas new york and portland oregon and then eight others that are formed a group called wanda of u._c._l._a. Water utility on climate adaptation group and they're using these new techniques in integrating hitting flying that landing into their water winning to ensure water supplies for their cities <hes> so it's not like nothing's happening you know if you look to the national national government. You'd think that everything was going backwards because it is at the national level under this president regular people in real organizations are going wing forward and engaged genius problems in trying to ensure water supply and also electricity and gas where the future and the problem is is that the kind of statistics that we were all trained in in college was developed during a period of stability climate stability. You take the a balancing of the royal society in nineteen sixty as the start of likes the scientific age. It's a little bit optimistic but let's say sixteen between sixty and then you can say that we had a change of structure in about the year two thousand where and we had approaching at least since the end of world war a two and measurable our scientific methods were developed in a relatively stable period where the structure did not change or orth it changed. It changes very gradually so you could neglect or drop out climate change variables. If you were doing some kind of analysis you could put them in your equation asian but they didn't pull much weight. Now it turns out that the climate variables are the most important variables if you if you go across a structure change point yet our methods were based on <hes> using probability distributions using basant analysis significance testing and all those things become very problematic nick if structures are changing. They don't really work real well so what's happened is that <hes> a group of people. The dutch sure that's academics and then <hes> some people in the u._s. and across europe in them dealing with with climate problems with water and other issues abdin looking at developing better models so that we can continue to do the kind of analysis that <hes> would have been done in the past by something like a linear programming britain announced as when the probabilities don't work and when they seem techniques don't work well with where the past at put it very shortly really the past and not used as a model for the future so it does turn out that there are models they cannot be used for these malices they they don't meet the criteria of the science developed during the stable period in other words. They're not going to have significance levels but then again american statistical mystical sociation has just told us in the last few years not to use significance levels as a criterion of truth so that's been abandoned by the statisticians anyway although it's still can be used as an indicator and instead what we do is try to develop something like speedometer or a register or indicator system so that we can project what is going to happen and then measured each year and see we're still on that same track or a track changes and the projections change. That's pretty much what the decision making under deep uncertainty does so our climate scientists still utilizing the beijing techniques are they still relying hang on that <hes> information to make their predictions. They are very uncomfortable. I would have found in in meeting with them is that they are much more uncomfortable bowl. What people don't realize that climb sinus are incredibly conservative in their work in their scientific work very reluctant to to deviate from a standard practice of a kind of science. It's been adduced over the last three hundred years the methodologies that worked very well or stable period. It's it's not that they disagree with the conclusions of an analysis done by an indicator system were decision making under uncertainty system but they don't like to put them forward now to be fair. They are the experts in climate scientists science. They understand the feedback mechanisms in the interactions that are driving driving. Climate is incredibly complex something that i don't understand i can run the bath but they understand the processes so they're they're happy with their own internal logic and their own internal <hes> discussion and i think they feel safer not going out looking too far ahead taking many claims. They're very very careful. And of course you'd want scientists to be careful and it's good that they do that. It's it's public service. They're doing but i i mean that's true to a degree unless like you said with the seatac example the initial model say whatever it is three hundred years when the reality is eighty years that that's a very big difference in terms of what we need to prepare for right. That's right when i discuss this directly with with goods climate scientists who are seat seat of people who are paid to be climate scientists. They don't disagree. It's like yeah eighty years but they wouldn't have done that. Analysis themselves yourselves because it's too quick and dirty. It's too much like using an indicator however you know in business or in social science and in some areas of physical michael science what you want to know is what's going to happen next so you can feed the information to decision makers and planners so that they can and optimize plans so you don't waste money and you don't waste effort though what you really want is something that's more like a real time speedometer or indicator as a different kind of goal the climate scientists have the goal science in it's a wonderful thing the reason why these twelve water departments are are working on this is because because it got to have water supply a better incorrect and boeing the <hes> the methods accepted methods getting the right answer right they're less than less worried about being published and being peer reviewed more concerned with making sure that the water stays on water stays on in that you don't make could decision nets that will cause regrets like suppose that you were planning for water supply and you were too conservative and you put into place as a technology galaxy that was would have been very good if nothing changed but then things changed or you've already made that investment you know millions and millions of dollars and it now is performing not as optimally as you thought for example hydro systems as it gets warmer. We'll gradually fail hydro systems. <hes> depend on rainfall patterns. They'd condone don snowcap and depend on melting during certain seasons and already. We're getting a decrease in snow cover in the mountains of the west. I the northwest so it's changing water supply at some point you only be able to have the head on the damn during the season of the year instead of the whole year sure so you you'll be still kind of power still great how hydro supplies are still great but the system won't operate the way it used to in. It doesn't get that replenishment time. Time doesn't get the yeah that's interesting. That's exactly right. Hey would you and i know this is i. I s i'm going to ask you this. I'm asking you to speculate about things that are not necessarily in your your direct direct area of expertise but would you consider <hes> the syrian crisis the syrian refugee crisis. Would you consider that to be a climate crisis. Yes i don't now when i don't think there's any any question what happened was that the climate changed the farms failed and if you're in a rural family and you had sons he sent them into the city to try to find work so they could send money back to the countryside. We i think it's real easy to understand. It's i mean it's an thing we've done here. Someplace farmers have sent their kids into the cities to find work and then some money back for the farm well. That's what they tried in syria but when the kids got the city's weren't any jobs and the government wasn't responsive and the problem was that there were these radical it will using misusing an old religion who who tried who did say okay you can come with us and we'll give you meaning. We'll give if you you can feel like you're a real man and you can do this work for god and and that's where we got some radicalization and the underlying shifts started started with climate and they were reinforced with claiming that of course is things appear as if they're like a regional dictator mistreating tweeting is people isn't that that happens but the underlying mechanisms mechanism interesting one of the things that i've read in some of your work. <hes> was the concept of total social mobilization and it's so in talking to you during this conversation. You seem to kind of be resigned signed to the fact that there's this certain amount of carbon in the air. We're going to have these effects. You seem to offer in some of your writing the way to address this is through <unk> this process of total social mobilization so do you believe that that we can either alleviate reduce fix to some degree <hes> what's happening in terms of climate climate change with the implementation of total social mobilization yes so could you <hes> describe total social mobilization formula little bit share all right. Let we just say real quick that the reason for that is that i want to bring everybody through. I don't want us to get into some kind of situation where some elite group says okay take care of ourselves but we won't do climate adaptation for some other groups of people. I think that's the real danger ahead so to head that off but we need to do is faith year of everyone and provide <hes> mechanisms where everyone can work on climate adaptation and where many people can get paid for working on a climate edification in their communities and where we bring through every group every ethnic group leave no one out and in a treat everyone so that everyone can get through this adaptation problem and the only way we can do that is a total social mobilization my both of us. They're writing about about that sort of thing. <hes> used the example of galbraith iran. Leo were production for world war. Two on essentially economy was shifted from a capitalist system to a command system for the duration of the war. Every country in the war did that because that was the only way you could survive so what they did was determine and what the objectives would be. What would be built. You know you would not build washing machines but would build tanks. Who would go planes. It wouldn't build cars build army trucks in tanks and everything was reprogrammed. All the all the provisioning of the plants was handled through the government and through command everybody was i'm now rations for the duration of the war it an end laugh till the war was ending so that kind of system could get us through but you look at our society site you look at where the income has gone in our society from the from the end of world war two through about nineteen sixty five to nine hundred seventy everything improved and and we got more and more <unk> we'll distribution of income from nineteen seventy onwards things went the other way an income went to the upper jen percent and especially the upper one percent away from the bottom and away from the middle and even away from the upper middle class and the lower upper class the only way we can make this thing work is to take that money back and put to work for a public service projects climate adaptation. That's the only way through anything else and will be trapped and somebody will take control troll of it and then they'll say okay. We're taking care of this group and you other guys just under for yourself and so are you talking on a global level because or i mean so when you say sent like the central federal control over the global warming effort rights federal government comes in and says this is how we're going to do it. This is basically not nationalizing these <hes> infrastructures and making. We're gonna make decisions about how this has to go that right before the united states we see we don't have authority that you that other countries. Are you talking about. Each country would need to do something similar. Yes and then would have to cooperate with each other. They'll balance things okay because when i just as bad as we are we're only responsible for twenty eight percent of the carbon emissions. She's right or something along those lines so it would have to be you'd have to get china onboard and you'd have to get <hes> india on board and not china china's ahead of us. Okay okay jack really wonderful work they all of course they're also building coal plants but but they're also way ahead of this on all of the work of the climate of just as they're ahead of us on energy because they have they already have a command system or partial made mostly command system is capitalist but it's it's on a commission basis. They're able to build whole cities. These are built right <hes>. We haven't even started to do that yet. So at what point what's the tipping point that <hes> you think would give give the social impetus to allow this kind of federal takeover. <hes> you know how how bad things have to get before you think they'll be the political will to allow that to happen at all think it's a matter of how bad the problem is. When things get bad you know you would think that people would say oh my gosh national. We've experienced at now. We're going to switch over in the work on the climate side and a few people do and always a few people move away to a place that safer they've experienced the climate incident but most people just want to stay in place and kind of <hes> rebuild and neither problem even if they've experienced inst- problem even if even if their streets are full of water. Is there the ocean. It's coming up they want. They want to keep their houses. They want to keep their neighborhoods and basis basis they know and <hes> it's it's not a people don't seem to respond. I guess you'd say logically but here's the thing for me and people who think like i do. The climate is the most important existential issue it's got to do with the survival everything all of us and everything but for other people give an example in oregon just recently we we had a climate bill cap and trade system that was ready to pass the legislature in june. We had the majority we had a democrat supermajority and they were ready to pass their there. Republicans from rural areas which was a small percentage of the state legislature left the state and hit out in idaho. Oh sent the state police after them but the state police can't cross the border the border and the idaho state police said that that was not their job to enforce oregon law or the directives of the oregon governor and so after the democrats caved and said okay we won't pass it any publians came back and they were able to ask the west legislation that you'd be passed for the end of the year but they didn't make it s now. Here's the thing these are republicans are are not dumb people. They would be climate deniers but they're existential. Issue is the economy in rural towns which have been bypassed <unk> by the benefits of globalization so there what they were afraid of was that okay if you take this stuff seriously start putting money into hiring people and logan counties to do all kinds of uh superior weatherization work to build better structure infrastructure <hes> that when he's gotta come from somewhere no come from taxes on energy and it will raise costs for transportation for farmers raise costs food and other things for rural counties who have high-cost anyway because they have low population densities. That's their existential issue. So my hope is that we can find some way talk across the divide work with them to to find solutions that will solve their economic problems and that in return they'll buy into the client work that needs to be done and passed the legislation nations sometime in the next year or two. I think that it's it's got to work that way that we have to respect the people i mean when i call my cousin in a small town in pennsylvania <hes> talk about <hes> what's happening and that i'm talking about working climate. We're in central valley california or undoing some other things. My cousin says well you know gil coal jobs. Were really good jobs. They were family jobs when we had mm-hmm and i know what's being thought there's like like i'm sort of running off and doing something that's that's hurting their their situation and of course i am because that's needs to be done but it's still important the wisened of those people and to meet and to bridge those things and try to find ways to the gotta have some some decent income in these rural place. It's got to have jobs. Gotta have good expectations for their kids. If we can do that then i think we can. I think think they'll come over and work on the witness. Is we have to we're going to survive. We'll go. I love that you're staying optimistic and i love that you're still working across the aisle trying to <hes> create solutions and bring everybody along even those folks that are still well ensconced in their denial of global warming at all <hes>. I appreciate the work that you're doing. I think it's amazing. I hope that <hes> continues to build for you. Why don't you let people that appear in this show. Note <hes> know how if you're interested in this <hes> like how they can get a hold of you where they might find you on social media. How how can people get a hold of you if they hire you to do this kind of work. Well thank smart. I think <hes> is my email address h._d._p. At adapt dot global and my website which are confined at w._w._w. Dot peach and associates dot net great and i'll make sure i put a link to that in the in the show description so anybody that's looking for that. They're all right. I feel like we covered a lot and i think that was great. <hes> you know i'd love to maybe get you back on down the road a little bit and see how things are are moving forward. Okay mark yes. Thanks for the deal. Thanks for thinking if you'd like to be alerted to win. New shows are coming out. You can <hes> either sign up to the newsletter on my website. Prodian podcasts dot com p. r. o. t. e. a. n. Podcasts dot com you can also <hes> subscribe due to the podcast on any of the major platforms apple podcast google podcast google play store stitcher. It's pretty much everywhere at this point so you'll the find us if you look so i thank you for joining me and i look forward to talking to you again they did.