This Is The Zodiac Speaking...


This is the zodiac speaking. I like killing people because it is so fun. It's more fun. Them killing wild game in the forest because man is the most dangerous animal to kill something as the most thrilling even better than getting iraq's off with the girl the best part of it. So when i die will be reborn in paradise and all that i have killed. Become my sleeves. I will not give you my name because try to slow down or stop by collecting of slaves from afterlife a strange than in the internet. Uncovering anything with thinking is weird. Strange controversial or makes you think i'm gonna be host. Alex joins always with chad and ryan. Today's episode we're taking you back to the bay area in the late nineteen sixties as we break down the infamous odia killer and just before we get into everything we just wanted to remind you once again to head over to that strange dot net to finally everything including oliver social media different places. You can listen to us and you can find links to our facebook group. That we started called that strange We really hope you guys join us there. It's a lot of fun and we hope to see around and can't wait to connect with you guys more. We did our hoodie. drop in. That was awesome to all you guys that ordered hope you like them and thank you so much because it supports our show and we got t shirts. they're little cheaper same high quality but less expensive. Let me be clear. So you can find all that information on our facebook or if you just go straight to that strange dot net. We'll have links to the preorder form that you can fill out or can just like messages. Serve whatever you want to do. On december twentieth nineteen sixty. Eight betty lou johnson and david faraday had planned on going to a christmas concert at hogan. High school just three blocks from the jetsons house. The couple instead visited a local restaurant before driving to lake. Herman road in benicia california faraday parked his mother's rambler in a gravel. Turn out which was well known as a lovers lane. The teens were both supposed to be home by eleven that night however they would really never make it home from that lovers lane alive so shortly after eleven pm on that. Same nights della burgess. I hope i'm saying that right. A nearby neighbor discovered the couple's bodies in the well known lovers lane. I'm just gonna say it burgess. I think it's boards borghese. No i think. I'm just going to go with boards color. Stella be cell abi good old stella be walking. Her dog finds dead bodies. Okay so that sounds like a great idea for a cartoon so the solano county sheriff's department investigated the murders faraday was shot once in the head at point blank range in died within minutes. Jensen was shot. Five times in the back and killed killed instantly. The weapon used in the murder was twenty two caliber semiautomatic pistol. The ammunition was winchester western. Super copper coated long rifle. Put a pin in that for later. So according to the police report the victims were approached by the suspect while they were still in faraday as mother's station wagon shots were fired into the vehicle in an apparent effort to force them out of the rambler fair day was shot as he emerged from the vehicle while johnson was shot as she fled. Her body was found twenty feet. Twenty eight feet from the rambler. Now this part. I don't know man. I have daughters but this part really really got to. This was jensen's first date. She was allowed out on and obviously the crime shocked to the family and the communities and neither family could really come up with an explanation of why somebody wanted to kill these two teenagers so i don't alex i know you have yet. That's pretty. I mean i know you have the hotter and that's like that's like the most horrifying thing you can think of like you you probably you know. It's probably been months that she's asking you to go out on a date and you're like no. Yeah it's just brutal. The investigation into the crime developed no leads. No one would know it at the time but this was the beginning of a vicious murderer who would torment the bay area and surrounding communities while no one was aware at the time the murders of faraday and jensen would be the first to widely at be attributed to the zodiac a serial killer who would torment northern california with his vicious murders and love for taunting the police and the media the zodiac killer. Would go on to become one of the most infamous serial killers in the united states history but the murders of faraday. Jensen were only the beginning just before midnight on july fourth nineteen. Sixty-nine darlene fair and michael maggio drove into the blues. Blue rock springs park in vallejo only four miles from the murder site at lake. Herman road while the couple sat in fairness car a second vehicle drove into the parking lot parked alongside them. The second vehicle almost immediately pulled back out of the park turning just ten minutes later the same vehicle parked behind the couple. The driver of the second car exited and proceeded to walk up to the passenger's side of fairness car carrying a flashlight and a nine millimeter. Luger killer shine the light into the victims. I before shooting at them five times. So i wanna stop quickly as we're talking about this. You guys have both seen the zodiac movie. Yup guy just literally. I'm one hundred percent mean serious. I literally finished two minutes before us. Yeah yeah so. This is the first murder that sean in the movie. And and it's the first one. And i think that's for a reason and i don't know if you were going to say this or not so i apologize but I think it's because it's the only one we really know about because one of them survives which is crazy right. Yeah i think that has a big big part in it because the other one i think he claims later on that he did it. The first one that we talked about. But that's really that's really it. you know. As far as the evidence goes it's just heat. Now he does call out specifics on the case that only the police and him would have known so i think that pretty much ties it together. I was curious to why they didn't show the first one in the movie. I don't know if the if you nailed it there. That's why. But that's what i think and the only reason i think that and i think that if you if you remember some through lines in the movie because i like it's all fresh on my brain so i think that they probably went with this one because this is also not to spoil anything for anybody. But we're probably going to split some things that happened in the movie anyway because it's all based on a real story but part the became out like thirteen years ago. If you haven't seen it by now. I think spoilers are good right exactly and if you haven't seen it by now you're probably not going to see it. So that's okay but a lot of what they used to tie. Arthur leigh allen to it later in the movie has to do with the fact that darlene knew him which is a through line in the movie that that's like where the evidence points in it also happens to be the first murder they show. I feel like that's part of that. Probably has a good good assessment there for sure. I think that it's as i was like going researching all this stuff. I think they did a really good job with the movie you know. There's there's little things here near that that are not true. It's a great movie even like little things like when the car parks behind them the first time in real life he actually parked right next to him. This is a little stuff like that. Which which to me. I always wondered. Why do that movies. Like i get that like creative. Freedom is a thing but when you're doing a real case you think you would get like little stuff like that right. Just my opinion. Both victims were hit and several bullets passed through michael and into darlene. The killer then walked away from the car but after hearing the male victims still moaning he returned and shot both victims twice before driving away at twelve. Forty am on july fifth. A man called the vallejo police department to report and claim responsibility for the attack. The caller also took credit for the murders of jensen and faraday over six months. Earlier police were able to trace a phone call to a booth at a nearby gas station phone booth at a nearby gas station. Darlene was pronounced dead at the hospital. However michael survive the attack. Despite being shot in the face neck and chest michael describes his attacker as a twenty six to thirty year old hundred and ninety five pound to two hundred pound five foot eight inches tall white male with light brown curly hair. So what do you think ryan. I think that this is what it's worth pointing out that his his claim to the the earlier murders In this particular instance the claim to those heat all he said in the call was basically. Oh yeah and. I killed those two up by lake up by the the lake earlier last year. And it's like okay. Well we know what you're referring to but also it was widely reported you know and so while we while. We're pretty sure that he did that. Because it's the same exact m o. I've always personally wondered if he was because in all reality and we'll get to it. There's a lot of things. He claims that. I mean almost immediately. Were taken away as even possibilities that he could have done so like the thing. I've always wondered about this is was that his inspiration for doing this one and he actually didn't do it. I've always wondered that. Yeah that's not. That's not a good at bat assessment. I think that when we get a little further end and i'll read out his first letter. It's not in our outline here. But i'll pull it up. He does pull out some specifics on that that first case in one of them spoiler alert is the thing i put a pin in earlier. He calls out the exact name of the brand of ammunition. I don't think that was reported in the news so normally stuff like that's not reported in the news right right sure. No that's very true. And i mean even if it was i think the thing that has always stuck in my brain is that we've talked about this before where like there. There's like the psychology of wia killer. Does what they do and how they do it. And the thing that's always of stuck with me is out of all of these. I'm pretty sure out of all of these. Correct me. If i'm wrong because i might. I might be forgetting something. All of the lovers lane. Murders the ones where he killed two people at one time or tried to kill teepee at one time the first murder that he says he did faraday jensen for for both of those people that he tried to that he tried to kill he actually he actually did kill him but for all the rest of them one of them was left alive which it just seems odd that he would be successful in the first the first time which is his first time you know apparently and that's usually the one where they screw up the most and then he screws up in every subsequent one excluding stein which you know it's just it just seemed weird to me right yeah i think i think you're right with that but at the same time it's it's not for lack of trying you know what i mean he. He tried to murder these people. It's not like he screwed up. Royally that i i mean we said earlier that michael was shot in the face neck and chest so i think very true. I think the the the weird thing about it is that it always released with the two people that survive. It's the males so it's almost like he. He gets so focused on killing the women. Maybe that's very true. Yeah focus on killing the women that he just kinda you know forgets about killing the other person there so i i don't know if that's maybe a A thing to call him out like his. Emo style is that he's got some sort of vendetta against women or if it's just you guys think that are just going to say. Do you guys think that there's a possibility. Also that it wasn't a lack of or or an site or something like that that he actually wanted someone to be alive on purpose because he wanted somebody to tell about his because because he's he's psychotic. I mean you. There's tons of things that i'm sure we'll get into a later about different things. He requested and things that he really You know he thought of himself extremely highly and he thought that he was extremely intelligent and all this stuff and they he could get away with it and obviously you. Don't he kind of debt you know he did and But part of that. I'm wondering was was it so that way somebody could could say this is. This is the guy this is what he looked like. That's what that way it would be. You know people would want to catch him more and the game would be more challenging for him at that point almost like like leaving someone to tell the story right like that. That does accents. Yeah i get that. I think that you're onto something there but man did he. He really did try to kill the kill. The guys i mean he. He used a lot of force and it just it. It seems like maybe that's part of it and then also part of it is just that he did focus too much on the women. I think it was probably both. I think you're right though. Yeah i think. I think you're right to alex. I think that out of every serial killer. This one seems to have the most need for attention. Would you guys agree with that. Out of every everyone that we know so far. He's he's the only one that really put himself out there to get caught in and it's kind of shocking that he put himself so much out there that he didn't get caught and i think that that plays into your hand where you say that he wants somebody to tell the story. He wants somebody to remember his face because it is a game to him. He wants to outsmart the police and he wants to make them look like idiots. So you got you got you know a guy saying exactly what i look like and you still can't catch me. I think you're right on that. That's a that's a good assessment. I think the only other killer that had like a similar ethos and the way that he approached things was probably timothy mcveigh but obviously a totally different approach right. Yep yep but bomber kinda to true. Yes absolutely on august first of nineteen. Sixty-nine three letters were received by the vallejo times. Herald the san francisco chronicle and the san francisco examiner. The letters took credit for the shooting at lake. Herman road and blue rock springs. Each of the letters included a third of the four hundred eight symbol cryptogram which the killer later claimed would actually reveal his identity. The killer made the demand that they be printed on the front page or he would continue his vicious crimes. The chronicle would go on to publish. Its third of the cipher on page four in the next day's edition in an article printed alongside the code. It had a quote from the vallejo police chief and he proceeded to say that he was not satisfied enough to say that the letter was written by the killer requested a second letter with more facts to prove his claims. So let's read the first letter and the letters are almost identical. That were sent to all three of the news things. I'm going to just pick the first one here. Which is the san francisco. Chronicle one it says dear editor. This is the murder of the two teenagers last christmas at lake. Herman in the girl on the on the fourth of july near the golf course in vallejo to prove i killed them. I shall state some facts. Which only i in the police now christmas now. I do want to point out here both times that he spells christmas. He spells it. Christ mass with two ss at the end i put a pin in that are later nat for later for sure so christmas brand name of anna ammo is super x so you can remove that pin that we put in there earlier because he calls out the ama- ten shots were fired. The boy was on his back with his feet to the car. The girl was on her right side. Feet to the west fourth july girl was wearing at patterns slacks. The boy was shot in the knee. Brand name of ammo was a western. So that is the cipher that was sent to earn decipher. I'm sorry i apologize. The letter that was set along with a third of the cipher. Each of the three different news stations. So like ryan said earlier. This is the outside of the phone call. He reported the second murderer. This is now. He's calling out that first murder we talked about again and he's being a little bit more specific. So what do you guys think about that. I'm wondering and i'm trying. I was trying to find it. But i'm wondering if that was ever actually published or if that is definitely something where he only he and the police were the. I looked man i could not. I mean we're talking about. We're talking about articles that were printed in this in in the late sixties. From what i could tell it was printed so you can take that for what it is. Maybe it was at some point in like a local newspaper local magazine or anything at the time it could have been printed and he pulled it off there but then also the things that he said were just. I mean they were. They were extremely specific. And you're not gonna. You're not going to say that somebody was facing this certain direction and in these certain things were were a part of it. When you know you're not going to because the families still mourning and things like that like it's it would be inappropriate to really paint that picture in that way. i think. yeah. I think you're right there. I think he does call out some very specific aspects of the crime. most importantly maybe the ammo is printed. And you can. You can almost say that the number of shots might have been printed to it might have said so and so got shot three times and so got shot you know. Whatever but the the direction that they're laying. I don't know that that would have ever been printed in in any any paper. I don't know what the reason would be behind them doing that. You know what i mean. Why why would you print are. Why would you share by. Ammo is used because then if somebody wants to commit a murder. They're going to be like. Oh i'm gonna use this exact am ammo and they're going to think think it was. This guys have now the other thing that kind of strikes me about this and it didn't. It didn't actually occur to me until this exact moment. This is the exact type of language. Wording that they would use in a police report. I wonder if he had the police report to like even if he did whether he did or not. I wonder if he wrote it from the police report. Because this is like this is how police talk. This is how they not things like her feet. Were facing to the west. Like that is just kind of a weird. You're randomly no. Yeah that's a good point for sure. I didn't even think about that. Yeah yeah it's very interesting and and maybe back then it people were a little bit better with the stuff. But i wouldn't be able to tell what direction the person i know. He was just facing. You know what. I mean. No way and and i feel like and i don't know maybe this is just me but the zodiac has always struck me as an unorganized killer. Like like he had a he had a thing he had a thing he wanted to do. But it always felt like his killings were were a little bit manic to a certain extent like he planned it to a point but then after that it just all went out the window and it just it strikes me as something that he wouldn't have taken the time to notice. We're taking the time to pull out a compass and find out the direction that he was pointing the people. It doesn't seem like something he would have known. Yeah yeah it's it's definitely bizarre but the police report thing. That's pretty interesting. So but how would he get a hold of. the police. report is the question. That's that's the thing. Vallejo is a very very very small town right like they cover this in the movie. I've read about it a little bit since. Then it's it's not so much but it's within the realm of possibility that you know. He could frankly he could've walked in and seen it on a table like there is some there are some people that think that that think that he like the whoever the zodiac killer was or or is or whoever. There are some people that think that you know he was. He was a person who was always in trouble with the law. Which is why. Some of the letters stopped for periods of time. And and all that. So what if he was the what if he was actually arrested for something and he saw the report sitting on a desk. It wasn't a big yeah. I don't know it's just that's a good possible. Yeah yeah definitely. Vallejo is small. And i think i have. I have a. We'll we'll get we'll get to later. Let's move on here. We'll get to theories. I'm moving on so on august fourth. Another letter was received by the san francisco. Examiner with the salutation dear editor. This is the zodiac. Speaking and this is actually the first time that he uses that to identify himself the later. The letter proceeded to divulge information on the murderers that had not been released to the public confirming the killer's identity. The killer also taunted that if they crack the cipher they would have his identity. Now i'm not going to read this whole this whole second letter here because it's kinda long i'll just take some snippets from it so it says this is the zodiac speaking in answer to your asking for more details about the good times i had in vallejo i shall be happy to supply even more material by the way. Are the police having a good time with the code. If not tell them to cheer up when they crack it they will have me do so. He goes on to to say july fourth. I did not open the car door. The windows were rolled down already. The boy was originally sitting in the front seat. When i began firing when i fired the first shot at his head. He leapt backwards at the same time. Thus spoiling my aim he ended up in the back seat. Then on the floor in the back thrashing out very violently with his legs. That that's how. I shot him in the knee and he said that earlier in the first letter that he was shot in the which again could something that was reported. But this is now now that we're reading this. You guys change your mind. A little bit on the the the identity of the writer was he talking about the second murder or the the first one second. Okay so yeah. I always thought that this was definitely definitely him. I've always thought that of of all of the murders. I think that this one and will get to the other one that i think Which i kind of already mentioned but we'll get there. I think this one in one other one are like one hundred percent. There's no way it could be anybody but this guy who was writing these letters kind of thing so i definitely think this one's him for sure i agree with ryan. I mean this whole time. I thought that these letters. I mean i almost think it would be more difficult for a copycat to try to keep up with this code and i think that's one of the reasons why he did. It is obviously like like we said before a game to him but also this code is his and that gives him this certain Sense of like this is mine. And that's why he's so whether he did some of these are not that's why he's claiming all these other murders as well as because he feels like well they might as to him. He's thinking they're not going to catch me anyway. So why don't i just up. My you know up my credibility you know with all these other claims as well. And and i think that for the most part the ones that he's claiming in these letters i think that he did. Yeah let me Let me break down so for that. July fourth murder that we were just talking about he goes on to say the description of the man that called out the color of his vehicle which was a a witness that stated that his vehicle was brown and i would assume that the police knew that he nailed the description of the identity. Which is that for me. I think we're all in the same boat that he definitely did. The july fourth thing. i think. Definitely thing ryan's a little off on the christmas one. Here's here's what he has to say about the christmas one in that episode spelled incorrectly. The police were wondering how. I could shoot and hit victims in the dark. They did not openly state this but implied this by saying it was well lit. It was a well lit night. And i could see silhouettes on the horizon. Bullshit that separated by hills and trees. What i did do was tape. A small pencil flashlight to the barrel of my gun. If you notice the center of the beam of light if you aim it at the wall or a ceiling you will see a black dark spot at the center of the circle of the light about three to six inches across when tape to a gun. Barrel the bullet will strike exactly at the center of the black dot in the light. All i had to do was spray them as if they were as if it was a water hose. There was no need to use the gun sights. I was not happy to see that. I did not get coverage on the front page so there we go for the christmas one. He's being i again a little bit more specific however not as specific as the first one. Would you guys agree. I would definitely agree. Because there's no way to to directly. Say that this actually is how he did it or that. You know the like him saying that he taped a pencil flashlight. Which also spelled pencil incorrectly. This guy is funny. Yeah there's no way to prove that right right. The thing the thing about the zodiac letters is he is an absolutely horrible speller and i. It's actually kinda funny. And i think that might make the solving of the the the second cipher a little bit. More difficult or any cipher. Difficult if you if you're not spelling correctly right very true yes actually. I had never thought about that before. But the fact that he is such a bad speller. like you've gotta assume that he had typos or misspellings somewhere. And i wonder if that's why they couldn't because they didn't crack some of them right like they never got a few of them. Am i right about that. Yes so there's can you guys hear me. Yes yes so. There is two ciphers. The way they identify am is four zero eight which is the four hundred eight symbol cryptogram. That we're talking about right now with these letters came and then the second one is the one that's not. They can't crack and they've had they've had like cia. Nsa big people trying to crack the sing but we'll get to that a little bit later my theory on that the next day donald did you guys even realize that i like just had a catastrophic failure internet. No not at all. Okay at a stroke failure. Hey what was your tracks stole recording. Yeah okay. we're good okay. Good that's good and so the next day and we're we're going back to this first cipher here. That came with the letters to the to the papers the next day. Donald and bette harden of salinas. Is it selena's yes. California cracked the four hundred. Eight symbol cipher. It contained what we said a misspelled message in which the killer references the novel the most dangerous game and this is actually what you heard at the beginning of this episode this this Solve ciphers the exact same thing that we heard at the beginning even though zodiac promised cracking the cipher would reveal his identity. It did not. And that's not an i mean that's not in right no like no way. There's no way he would give up his identity like that like he's he's trying to toy with them like he's not going to be like my name's john like rice thought no come on. He wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have believed it if i were them. Receiving the letters in the first place that it would actually be in there. It doesn't make sense. And i don't know that they did believe it to be honest because i don't know that anybody could really believe it. But maybe at the time in the sixties. I don't know maybe but i think that looking back on it. Now there's like no way that he was going to put his name in that letter in that cipher rather while the killer of two previous unsolved murders had finally revealed himself. His identity remained a mystery with the solve and not revealing any details into the identity. The police were once again at a standstill. A nervous bay area waited for the next. Correspondents or for the next gruesome murder. However they wouldn't need to wait. Long on september twenty seventh of one thousand nine hundred sixty nine pacific union. College students bryan hartnell. And cecelia shepard were part. Were picnicking at lake. Barry esa on a small island a white man around five eleven weighing more than one hundred seventy pounds with combed. Greasy brown hair approached them wearing a blade. Black executioner style hood clip on sunglasses over the eyeholes. The man was also wearing a bib. Like article of clothing with a white three by three inch circle and cross symbol. He approached the couple with the gun which hartnell believed was a forty five caliber as a little bit of a spoiler alert for the how this one pans out. Yeah just a bit. that's okay. The hooded man said he was an escaped con convict from jail with a quote. Two word name and either colorado or montana. And i don't believe that. I don't believe that. Brian could remember which is understandable for what you see is coming here that he wouldn't remember what this guy said but he's this guy said that he killed a guard and stole a car to escape. He then said that he needed their car and money to escape to mexico because his car was quote too hot which makes sense you know if he stole it right from a prisoner. I get that i think this think the story. He kind of builds. Here's i mean you won't once you see like we didn't mention it earlier but on those on the letters that were sent the same logo that we're talking about was on it that he's got on his front the cross and circle which pretty much a lot of people signed circle around it right. It looks like a crosshairs like it. Looks like if you're playing like a school shooter game. That's kind of what you see when you go into the into the actual shooting mode exactly definitely which makes sense like a gun logo. The suspect had pre cut lines of clothesline. So like what you would have close onto dry. And he told shepherd to shepherd to tie up hartnell before he tied her up. The killer then checked the tightness of the binds that heart now had an on heart now actually tightened them while the couple believed that. This event was a bizarre robbery. Those thoughts were quickly changed by what what happened next. I don't know that this this murderer shown in the movie. Also and i don't know what it is but i have a hard time watching the scene man. I said the same dude. I skipped it watching i. I mean i don't know if it's the. It's just very vivid in very detailed and it's just horrifying to think that this actually happened to somebody to me. It's the killing of the girl. That does it for me like everything before that. I'm like i'm totally fine. But like she's screaming looking directly into the camera and it's just a knife heading her and she's like and agony. It's really brutal. I it's terrifying. I like i watched horror movies all the time with like crazy things happening. There's virtually no blood in the scene. I have to skip it. It's weird right right so he's got them tied up. He's tightened them down. The suspect draws a foot long knife and stabs. Both victims repeatedly heart now suffered six stab wounds while shepherd suffered ten in the attack. The suspect then hiked five hundred yards to the victims vehicle and drew a cross and circle. Symbol on heart nells car door and underneath it he wrote. I'm gonna read this line by line hair. Vallejo twelve twenty sixty eight which is the first one that we talked about seven four sixty nine july fourth one obviously september twenty seventh sixty nine six thirty by knife in. That is the one that we're talking about right now. I'll have. I'm gonna share something on the blog post. That has pictures of this vehicle and what was written on it as well as all of the zodiac letters that he sent. Because we're not going to go over all of them because there's there's a lot but they're definitely keep an eye on the artwork. If you're a podcast player supports it. And i will have those in. There are at least go so again. The suspect would report the crime to local authorities before claiming responsibility for them. The victims were found by a man and his son who were on a fishing who were fishing at a nearby cove. Shepherd was unconscious upon their arrival but slipped into a coma and died at the hospital. Two days later hartnell. The mail survived the attack and was able to provide description to the police in the press. Detectives would also locate a boot print at the scene of the crime that was a military style boot leading some to believe that zodiac had military experience now. The boot that was found at the crime scene was like d- do you probably know a little bit more about it ryan. It's like designed to walk on the wing of planes or something like that and it right only purchase at somewhere where you need a military. Id to make purchases. I remember reading. An and i guess. I i might be wrong about this because i don i remember reading that you could also buy them at military surplus stores yet. What when you think about it. Anything really that the military has for the most part. You can find somewhere right so even back then. I don't think that this is and i think this kind of to a point might hurt this investigation a little bit that the police are now focusing so much on a military person and i and this happens a lot by the way i was just going to say that it's crazy. How often this happens. It's like they get like one piece of evidence and they start chasing like crazy and it takes down like a secondary road and the actual answer is like further up the road. They were already on and they have no idea that they're going down this really weird road and But this just keeps happening. And i think this is one of the early Examples of it. Definitely yeah. I think that you gotta think that if you're doing something like this especially with zodiac who seems to be very into the details if you will that. This is something that i that he would use to throw them off the trail and it seems like a no brainer to me. Like i'm going to wear military boots tonight that you can only buy allegedly or whatever it was i feel like it just throws the entire investigation into a loop. Because i don't personally after after writing this and i don't think you guys are at the end. I don't think this was a military guy. What do you think ryan do you have. Do you have any. I'm in one hundred percent agreement with you on that one. I don't think so at all. I think this guy was either a troubled child that you know became a criminal. But i think that this person is a career criminal in at least in my opinion and some of that. I think i kind of alluded to earlier but like there are breaks in activity with zodiac over time and a lot of those breaks in activity at least with at least one or two of the suspects actually line up with them to having prison sentence which would make sense given the fact that there were no letters received by any the newspapers. Any of the people that he was tormenting didn't get anything like that. That seems to say a lot for me. I just feel like this guy was just a career criminal honestly. Two weeks following the attack at lake mary. Esa a white male entered a cab driven by paul stein in san francisco. The passenger requested to be taken to presidio heights however on arrival for unknown reasons the taxi driver drove one block past the original quested intersection. The passenger then shot stein once in the head with a nine millimeter took signs wallet and car. Keys and a section of stein's bloodstained shirt. The suspect is witnessed by three teenagers. Then called the police so two blocks from the crime scene Patrol officers. Dan falc and eric zooms responding to the calls of the crime in progress witnessed a white man walking along the sidewalk near the crime scene. But because of the initial police dispatch mistakenly pending. The suspect is a black male. They actually ignored the man which turned out to be a mistake. I believe anyway Search following the discovery of crime yielded no results and the officers description of the man is nearly identical to all the witnesses only varying slightly in age and they also talked about like a like a like a limber like like he almost lumbered along kind of thing Which which was another part of this. While the stein murder was initially believed to be a robbery gone wrong. That theory was squashed two days later. The san francisco chronicle actually received a new letter from the zodiac containing a piece of the bloody shirt that was taken the night of the crime and claiming responsibility. Witnesses were questioned and from this crime. The police sketch was developed. The case was given to detectives bill. Armstrong dave tashi the same cisco department estimated a total of nearly twenty five hundred suspects that were investigated over a couple of years. Now this is a crazy crazy story and this is kind of said this earlier but the murder of paul stein. Here is one of the ones that i think like. You can't say he didn't do in. It's because of these pieces of the of his pajama shirt. Basically that this guy was wearing while he was driving a cab late at night. What do you guys think. I think it's i think it's you're right. You know one hundred percent. He did this but if you look at it doesn't fit his. Mo at all whatsoever no not along the other the other attacks couples in secluded areas. It's like totally bizarre that this happened. But i think it's but i have a theory on this and i. Do you have a theory too that you want that. You're going to go ahead okay So i do have a theory here now. The movie posits this. And then i. I kinda did some digging a few ago after watching this movie because i've been obsessed with this story for a very long time it. The killing actually happened really close to the same timeframe that a radio show was talking about the zodiac and making all of these claims about what kind of person he must be and and how he's a monster and all this stuff and the movie kind of says this. And i think i kind of agree with the idea but basically they're driving along. This radio station is playing. All the speculative stuff about him and then all of a sudden he shoots the guy and i'm wondering if it was. I'm angry. all these people are getting it wrong. I'm going to show them. Just what i'm capable of and i'm going to show them show them that. I'm not stuck to the same m o that i've been doing for for a while now and i'm going to kill this guy right here and now i don't think he planned it. I think he got in the cab to go somewhere. And i think he decided in that cab ride that he was going to kill this man. I gotta be honest with you. That might be the best assessment of this. That i've ever heard i think that's the annual and i never heard that i mean that's that's perfect breakdown of it. What do you think alex. I- i- hundred percent agree and honestly it's something that i've thought about. You know hearing different stories of serial killers like that. It's like if one of the major criteria is analyzing their mo. Why wouldn't you change it every single time or at least pretty often right yeah. It's just that when you look at the case without digging into it it's like a total curve ball right because it doesn't but but but it breaking it down like that that's probably an as a great assessment. I gotta be honest. So i appreciate that. I thought i. I thought i was on. Its tastic so contained in that letter with stein's shirt was a threat that would startle the community and keep them on edge zodiac threatened to shoot out the tires of a school bus and quote. Pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out so this is this is another thing that probably absolutely horrified this community. Right because they're in the grips of the serial killer so correct me. If i'm wrong did they didn't they hold off on printing the we're gonna. I'm gonna pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out part for a little while before they actually. Yes yeah they did. That was probably a smart decision. Because i think you you're you're one hundred percent right like this. Would this would just rock the community to like to their core. I mean can you imagine being asked like to keep that quiet while having kids getting on an office grace right. I don't know that i could honestly like. I think i'd call my kid off from school every day until they called me to ask on. And i'd have i mean i'd have like an overwhelming amount of guilt about that but i mean you have to do what you. Yeah but you would have. You would have overwhelming even more overwhelming guilt. If you sent your kid on the bus in this happened you know what i mean so yeah i would have no guilt none whatsoever room keeping up from school. The community of san francisco crippled by the most recent zodiac threat. The killer continued his antics. He contacted the oakland police department requested. That one of two prominent lawyers at the time. F lee bailey or melvin. Belli appear on. Am san francisco while bailey was unable to appear on the local talk. Show alvin bell. I actually did. The host of the show pleaded with the public to keep the lines open in hopes that the zodiac would call eventually someone referring to himself as the and sam called in and a meet up between the suspect and bell was arranged however the caller never showed so on november ninth zodiac mailed a card with another cryptogram consisting of three hundred and forty characters. This cipher has never been decoded although many have claimed to have cracked it. None of them have been able to to be actually taken us definitive. The zodiac then began communicating with marvin bell. I in a letter that included another piece of stine's bloody shirt zodiac could ask for belli's help in this letter which turned which he actually then turned over to detectives. While many other murders have been speculated to involve zodiac the only murders have been definitively tied to him are the ones we have mentioned so far. Yeah so we kinda hinted at that earlier. And i for the sake completion est i will share the other murders on the blog. Post i personally after reading into them. Do not believe that they were doc. I don't know if you guys read into any of the other murders. I have an only because this case really does just completely fascinate. Me and i would agree with you. A lot of them and there are a few like there's one where he actually claims that he shot cop in a parked police car. And i mean like that was literally reported in the news like days before he wrote the letter was received and then like a day after he sent the letter someone was already in custody and had an had literally said that they like there's multiples of these where he claimed something that he definitely didn't do which just points out like how much he was to your point earlier. Actually just trying to to play up the media. I mean let's be honest. This man was a brilliant marketer. Oh yeah for sure. I mean even some of even some of his letters he. He requested that the citizens of san francisco where pins zodiac pins and it would make him. I love that by the way. I think it's great. It's awesome and i thought when i when i saw that in the movie i thought it was like hollywood stuff but it's actually true in the letter. It actually a couple of the letters. He says that you know you request that they wear penzone says he's upset that he doesn't see anybody zodiac pens like like my favorite is that he specifies he's like nothing mean or angry. I forget the wording. But he's like nothing rude or mean or now. But i just want someone walking around with my with my symbol or something like it's so funny like eared thing to ask for her so we kind of broke. You is trying to build a brand. I mean i think hildebrand beyond maybe he did have his own clothes. You go there you go. So we kind of breezed. Over the the melvin. Belli thing and it. We kind of mentioned it at the beginning of this episode. And i don't know if we were recording at the time that we mentioned it's gonna mention it again. That video of bel. I on the news talking with somebody on the on. The phone was actually tied to a psych patient that called in that was in a psych hospital so it was not zodiac. Unfortunately because it makes for at least the scene in the movie school you know it's like the scream and everything but oh yeah oh dude it's terrorism. I mean can you imagine sitting there watching it with like kids right right like that shock. Yeah so unfortunately that was not zodiac. That ended up being somebody different. But i think it was. It's an important part of the story. I think because it kind of shows that a lot of people were piggybacking off what zodiac what zodiac is. Doing they had you know. Hundreds of suspects confessing to them and getting the details. Completely wrong on the crimes. So he's he's really got this community half of them and fear and half of them trying to take his his glory from them. Maybe not half. That might be a little bit of an overestimate. But i think that doesn't matter what i think. Let's move on call so just to kind of move onto another story that that seems to have been tied back to the zodiac kathleen. John's of san bernardino was actually traveling on the night of march. Twenty second nineteen seventy to visit her mother. John's was seven months pregnant and had a ten month old daughter beside her as she traveled along highway. One thirty two near modesto modesto. A car began honking and flashing the lights behind her. She pulled off on the side of the road and actually stopped the man in the car parked behind her approached her and informed her that her rear wheel was wobbling and offered to tighten the lug nuts following assisting her. The man drove off and john scott back onto the highway however the tire almost immediately came off the vehicle. The man came back around and offered to drive her in her daughter to a nearby gas station. John's entered the man's vehicle for assistance. And for the next ninety minutes he would drive back and forth on the back roads passing multiple stations. But he did not stop when she confronted him on not stopping he would change the subject. The suspect eventually stopped at an intersection. At which time. Johns took the opportunity to escape with her young daughter. The suspect preceded search for her with a flashlight stating that he wouldn't hurt her but he eventually gave up and drove away. During johnson's statement to the police. She noticed that the police composite sketch of paul stine's killer and identified him as the man who abducted her and her child while many accounts report that the suspect threatened her during the ride. This is disputed with the police report. Yeah and in another part. That's disputed is him searching for her with the flashlight. I couldn't really find it a definitive answer if he actually did that so Take that for what it's worth. I don't know that he did or didn't get out of the car and look for the flashlight. But this is actually what alex was talking about earlier. Right this is yeah. Yeah this scene in the movie Whether it's actually how it played out or not was this. Is the scene that i had hard time watching like the whole time. I was thinking to myself. Because you see the people pull up. And she's freaking out on the side of the road she's bloody and and and what you assume then because in the car The the guy he actually says and because because another thing we didn't really talk about exactly. I don't think Oh yeah ten month old daughter. Okay and he says. I'm going to throw your child at the window before i kill you. Kill you and kill you. And then it's then it proceeds to the scene to cycle my. Gosh what whereas her kid and then you know and then luckily you know you see that that that she hid hit the child and you hear the crying. It makes it a lot better but before that you know. I'm thinking to myself. Oh my gosh. She's looking for her kid on right right. Yeah yeah. that's that's a good. That's a good assessment. That but i think from everything that i could find that threatening stuff was actually hollywood and her police report. He'd she doesn't mention that she was threatened by him. She just felt very uneasy with this guy. Driving her around passing the gas stations. That that's why she actually got out of the car when he stopped at that intersection. So yeah But yeah that's it's startling. Scene in that movie for sure. In a letter received in october of nineteen seventy by chronicle reporter paul avery the similarities between zodiacs activities and the unsolved nineteen sixty six murder of sherri joe bates in riverside more than four hundred miles. South of san francisco revealed while similarities. Are there riverside police and paul. Avery maintained that the murder was not committed by zodiac now. This is the one that i kind of mentioned a little bit earlier. That i didn't wanna start with this. For at least part of the investigation was considered to possibly be perpetrated by zodiac. But i think the evidence shows that it's not zodiac. I do you feel that same way ryan. I would say so. I mean it. It feels like you know like i said earlier. He's just kind of taking credit for anything he can take credit for and And i have a fury on that by the way. But i feel like he's just taking credit for whatever he can because he wants to stay in light and he's become a. I think that's right. I'd have to agree with that as well. So while in correspondent sent by zodiac claimed thirty seven murders. Investigators seem to agree that only seven confirmed victims two of which survived and the final confirmed zodiac letter was received on january twenty nine th nineteen seventy four and included the final score and i. I didn't really mention this earlier. He's kind of keeping score on some of these letters so the final score for him in this is worth thirty. Seven comes from as me equals thirty seven. Sf pd equals zero. So it's like a game to the sky man. It startling that that say he's keeping score. That's like horrifying right. Yeah i mean it's it's just like you said it's it's all a game to him and and it's It's just fine. I mean he's said before he's a psychopath. Most i shouldn't say most but there are serial killers that are just completely insane. You know a lot of them are are you know smart in a they. Have that charisma to be able to attract people in order to kill them but for him. He's just coming out of the night. And he's a psychopath. Mean that. And i think that's part of why he never gets caught is Psychopaths don't follow a set pattern. Sociopaths are typically the ones who set a follow a set pattern and the reality is that there. Aren't that many psychopath killers like confirmed psychopathic killers. But the ones that have been confirmed to be psychopaths or at least think that they're confirmed to be. Psychopaths are the ones who haven't been caught. Which is because they don't follow a pattern they don't they don't have an emo. They don't do things the same way each time. So it's hard to track them right. So dave gi. I think that's how you say it. Right dave totski. It's other tashi or gator. Can't with toss ski. Was the chief inspector on the zodiac case. He also inspired movies. The movies bullet in dirty harry for his unique personal style and look out. I'll share a picture of him. And maybe ryan will put one here. He's got a very unique dress style and he's just a he's just cool dude i think but he was actually under investigation for potentially writing one of zodiac letters that was sent but he was and this is super unfortunate and he was exonerated of this thank goodness but ruined is the history ruined his career whether he was exonerated because he was i think it it screwed him out of the chief position i think for the department because of all this was going on so it is very unfortunate but and the real of that is they mentioned this in the movie too but i think i think it's called mentioned here because he he did not write a letter to the right one of the zodiac letters. He actually wrote a letter to someone who was writing like stories and comics based on what he did in the police force. He wrote a letter an anonymous letter asking for those stories to be put back into the newspaper. He was basically writing like a fan letter to himself. And that's why the speculation happened. Which is like unfortunate like. He just wanted to see the about himself right. He's looking for attention that's what he was doing. But at the time when you see a guy publicly looking for attention. And i can see where they made the ties. I think that was at least part of them. Checking the handwriting for this guy too right. Yeah he had to submit handrail exams. It's an unfortunate thing that happened to the poor guy. And i like we saturdays exonerated so he definitely did not rate one of these. So we're going to briefly burris over some suspects here. And i'm going to let ryan do arthur. Leigh allen is it. Because i think that he is the one who gets okay. I'm fine with that All right so Spoiler alert also had in whatever you want. Add in here because i tried a little brief on the suspects. So that's fine. I just say. I do think that maybe after we talk about this a lot of people will will maybe agree with me on some of this that he's he's might disagree with that so we go and we'll get there so if you guys have not seen the movie we've talked about a whole bunch robert gray. Smith is kind of the central character. He's a cartoonist. For the san francisco chronicle during the zodiac time he became kind of obsessed with this case. I worked with paul avery at the at that newspaper. Now part of his story is told in the film but gray. Smith also wrote a book that advanced. Arthur leigh allen as a potential suspect on circumstantial evidence. Now the circumstantial evidence that we're talking about here is pretty crazy and Is pretty hard to say is not him. But it was all circumstantial. We'll get to that. And second so allen had been interviewed by the police from the early days of the zodiac investigation was the subject of search warrants over a twenty year period. And grace moretz book. He describes allen as the most likely of the suspects according to police detectives however in twenty ten tashi states that the evidence against alan ultimately turned out to be negative allen had been reported in the vicinity of lake barry esa during the attack allen again came under police attention in nineteen seventy one when his friend. Donald cheney reported to manhattan beach california police that allen had spoken of his desire to kill people use. The name zodiac insecure a flashlight to a firearm for visibility at night allen also wore zodiac watch had the same type of had the typewriter as the one discovered to be used in the sherry joe bates cased live near vallejo only minutes from one of the zodiac victims which was in which we mentioned earlier in two thousand two sf pd developed. Ask whatever you wanna add into. This evidence is so now just to kind of go a little bit more into what don cheney mentioned here just to be specific. This is the kind of this. Is the stuff that don cheney said that. Allen told him so he told him that he would like to kill couples randomly. He taught the police with letters detailing crimes he would sign the letters with the cross cross circle symbol from his watch. He wanted to one day call himself zodiac. He said to his friend at that time he would wear makeup to change his appearance. He would attach flashlights to the barrel of his gun. In order to shoot at night he would full women into stopping their cars in rural areas by claiming. They had problems with their tires. Then loosen their lug nuts and eventually take them captive He was born on december eighteenth around the same time. The zodiac told attorney. Mar melvin belli's housekeeper. Over the phone. That it was his birthday and he needed to kill someone. Allen lived vallejo near blue rock springs lake. Herman road murderers like. There's there's a lot there's actually a bunch and i might even include a link to to this article. That goes over a lot. I think i know the article. You're talking about you. I'll put it in the blog. Post where you guys can read down all that stuff. It'd be good to look at. There's a lot here and the the reality is that after even after all of this. With all of the circumstantial evidence this is. This is of the thing that happened. So in two thousand and two san francisco. Pd developed a partial dna profile from saliva on stamps and envelopes of zodiac letters. The sf pd compared the partial to both allen and don cheney since neither test results indicated a match allen and cheney were excluded as the contributors of the dna. But my thing on this my one thing on this is it is entirely possible that he did not because he planned this whole thing. He knew what was going to happen. He knew how he was going to toy with people. I don't believe that he would have. He would have personally licked though stance. Yeah probably had a dog only there you go or or just i think they can tell the difference between dog. Dna and human dna and other animals. I believe if they can't to then why are we even using right if they can't right. Yeah i i think that's a fair assessment to make to me. This is like the put the pen in this guy thing. And i don't believe it's him. I think that did it. What did you say no. It's totally this guy. You think it's him hundred. Rebellious you way tie and a one. Yeah it's totally are three al. I think i think that the movie in the book. Lean very heavily into the sky. And i think that is where a lot of the stuff comes from but the dna man. I mean that's like. I mean outside of having somebody to lick his stamps. Which seems odd which is possible. But again is circumstantial right. We don't know that there's no way to prove that he had somebody else. Lick that stamp and that sucks for that guy if they ever find him or girl right. Like oh yeah. True totally got lick stamps. For arthur leigh allen. Back in the day that's true now but also think about it this way too because back in those days like Post offices were smaller people. New people like it's it is possible that he walked in there and said oh. I forgot to put a stamp on that. Could you throw a stamp on there. And they they may have just done it our as possible. That's very yeah. That's on very good. Very good assessment. I mean the guy wore gloves. He wore gloves. He knew what he was doing like he planned this all so actually the witnesses at the pulse stein murder seeing the kids said that he was they witnessed him wiping the vehicle down for fingerprints and stuff to see a right. He did very much plan this out and he knew what he was doing hundred percent so i dunno you. Take it for what it's worth. I think the reason that i have him on here. I is because i think he's the most likely suspect. I think it's a no brainer. That he's the most likely out of the other ones that we're gonna talk about. And this is the same kind of thing as the db cooper thing. It's been so long now that everything is going to be circumstantial outside of them finding a match for the dna or something else. That's a little more substantial. So the reason i put him on here i but a lot i mean. There's there's a documentary documentary series. That leans on three or four other different suspects. So have you guys just put all. Why don't we just put the rest of this list on the did you say yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. I'll put that. I can put the rest of that on the blog posts. Because i think if being honest some of these are like no like even ted kaczynski. The unabomber was considered as a suspect for for zodiac. Which when you look at some of the stuff is like okay. I mean got kind of the same handwriting. And kinda the same. Look but i mean i don't know man the the one that i was talking about in last week's episode where i said the guy thought that it was his step or his dad. Did you guys remember me talking about that. yes i do. So the name of the book that was published as the most dangerous animal of all in which he claims his search for his biological father. Van earl van best junior led him to conclude that van best was the zodiac killer and then twenty twenty. The book was adapted to an fx documentary series again throughout the entire documentary brings up very very good points very good stuff but at the end it kind of unravels. So i'm not gonna i'm gonna. I don't wanna spoil that for anybody. Who wants to watch it. I think it's worth a watch or just gonna put a pin in that one. We'll put a pin in that one and the other one. I wanted to briefly. Talk about was raw sullivan ross. Sutherland was a person of interest through the possible link to the zodiac killer in cheri jo bates and riverside which again were not sure that zodiac committed. And i think it's pretty fair to assess that he didn't commit that. Crime but sullivan was a librarian at a ra- library assistant at riverside city college and was suspected by colleagues. Who said that he that he went missing for several days after the murder of sherri joe bates sullivan. If you look up. His pictures resembles the sketches of the zodiac. He wore military style boots. Same as the ones found at the lair lake. Barry us a crime scene and he was also hospitalized multiple times for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. This is another documentary that i watched last night. It's actually on amazon. It's pretty good. It's called the hunt for the zodiac killer. And they lean into this guy pretty pretty pretty heavy and it's actually pretty interesting. It's like a retired. Lapd detective and like a retired. Fbi profiler maybe. It's really good. If you if you guys get a chance to watch it. The the next part that we're going to briefly talk about comes from that documentary. So i'll you the rest of these. Like alex said i'll share the rest of the suspects if you guys want to read them on the blog post so make sure you head over to that. Strange dot net check out the rest of these suspects. prepare error. The san francisco police department marked the case inactive in april of two thousand and four however reopened it in march of two thousand and seven this case as everybody knows remains on open and no one has ever been charged with the murders so z. Three forty was the cipher. That was never solved k. It was the second cipher. We z eight and z. Three forty in the finale of the documentary series the hunt for the zodiac killer. Which is the one. I was talking about on amazon. A code team feature is featured attempting to solve the three forty cipher. Craig bauer one of these members seemingly solved half of the cipher that zodiac assured what contain his identity. And i'm going to read this. And then i'm gonna tell you my opinion on it here it is. I kill both night and day. I live by the gun. Barrel aim so quick wishing for game to be over pigs. Now there's like six other ways that this goes after this and i'm not going to put it in here because i don't think either of them alright and i don't think this is right. Did you know this ryan i had. I remember what. I watched this or watch. Something like this Or at least watch part the part where they talk about this cipher and and you know that they had maybe figured it out but you know at the end of the day i think you have to also look at the previous writings and if you look at the previous ciphers the ones that were solved and definitively like this is actually what they say. This isn't like the way he wrote. Ciphers no no not at all. It doesn't sound like him at all. Not even a little bit like i could believe it coming from someone else. Maybe but it doesn't make any sense coming from the zodiac. As we him and his letters were anything but inconsistent like they were very consistent. I'll give you a give you my breakdown of this second cipher. Real quick so that they seemingly solved half the cipher. Craig says that the second half was just gibberish by the way that he solved the first half so he doesn't know if they he changed the cipher. Halfway through yada yada yada. There is a name at the end. But it's a weird spelling for richard nixon. So he's again toying with them. If that's the actual name maya cessnas. This is not right. And there's no right way to solve the cipher. We're talking about a psychopath here. We're talking about somebody that wants to toy with the the police and everybody i think he just wrote down random symbols to keep them busy and i think that's why the first cipher took a day to solve in this one. It's you know what thirtysomething forty something years later and it's still not solved so i don't think i think the cipher is fake. I don't think there's think it's ever going to be solved definitively. Because i don't think there's a way to solve it if if it's fake. How did they get anything at all. Then well the way that craig did. This breakdown is he says that in in in the cipher. There's a bunch of different symbols and letters here used the letters that were actually tied to the letter in the cipher. so if it was a k. He used k if it was an l. he used l. so he says that's why he thinks it went so long without being broken. Because nobody's gonna try and break a cipher and look behind the k. To find a k. Right right so. I don't know man i i almost didn't want to include this because i just don't believe it but i think it's at least it seems like it's picking up traction zodiac community so that it was worth mentioning but i just think it's and i think that with like ciphers like this there. There are so many ways that you could kind of twist this and make it something that something that you want it to be and i mean for me again like i said there. The zodiac letters were anything but inconsistent. Like i said and it would be strange to me that he would send a cipher that changed code halfway through so that would be a red flag me right away. The wording doesn't seem right. So that would be a red flag to me that i that i probably got my assumption about what he's using here wrong also. Can we talk just for like a list of moments that a married couple. Figure this out when the fbi the cia. Everybody was looking at it. Originally that's the first cipher there. They they actually. We just didn't mentioned earlier. And i just think it's yet we met. We talked about it. Also you got to think about the fact that you know there are a ton of people in the world that can still had these skills but they probably have a lot more time in their hands that it would. I honestly think that it is important that other people look at these things that other people try to play around with it because you know who knows there there could be somebody that could put two and two together that the fbi is just too busy they just got so much other stuff going on exactly and not enough hands. And that's that's what m- kinda muddied up these san francisco police investigation into it is. They had other murders to investigate a lot of other. Might san francisco. It's a big city. They had a lot of other murders to solve not saying that the police didn't care about solving this one which they clearly did but once it gets past that like i forty eight hours that they say it it becomes very difficult to solve these murders and they have fresh murders that are coming in fresh fans that need them to help. And you know that you know. I don't know what i'm trying to say. But it's that's what kind of hurt this investigation. Along with. A couple of of of other things in the cipher. Being one of them so all right. Let's take our final breakdown of what we think on the zodiac starting with alex honestly after hearing kind of the breakdown of arthur leigh allen and all that well i'll say a couple of things i definitely think that he was purposefully. Changing his mo. In order to throw people off. I think that he was possibly changing the code or even just like you said throwing in random symbols from time to time to throw people off. I think that like i said before. This was all a game to him because he is. He's a psychopath. And i think that tying arthur leigh allen to it just based solely on the details given here and in other sources that you said I mean i think it's a good possibility. I think there are a lot of things that tie him. In and Just without doing a Other other research of my own looking at this in it looks pretty plausible to me anyway but definitely an interesting case for sure ryan. Well i kinda. I kind of said what i what i think Earlier and it stands true. I think. Arthur leigh allen having given all of this information to donald cheney back when he did which was proceeding. I don't think. I don't think i was very clear on this earlier but it was proceeding all of the events that was proceeding all the murders. When this when these conversations took place and there were other things revealed that may or may not be factual. But you know things about his writing and his penchant for misspelling and thinking it was funny and stuff like that but the the bottom line is that so many of the things that he talked about doing or actually did like top shooting out a school. Bus tire talking about Tricking women into into pulling over and telling them their wheel was wobbly. And then loosening the lug nuts. These were things that he did which is kind of crazy to actually consider that you know he. This man literally said. I'm gonna do all these things. And then he did them and we're still thinking about it that he couldn't that he might not have been the one who actually ended up doing the things he said he was going to do. Like literally a bullet list of things. He was going to do that he did. And it just seems like. He's the most plausible based on the fact that you know. All all of the in all of the circumstantial evidence what he said he was going to do the zodiac. Watch everything about him the fact that he did walk with a little bit of a a limp. Apparently according to eyewitnesses. You know that actually met arthur. Leigh allen interviewed him. There's just so much to it. And apparently he was in jail during parts during parts of time where there were no zodiac letters received. He was actually serving time in prison during those times. There's just so many things that point to him. I think that it's hard to ignore. I can go both ways on this. I think that. Arthur leigh allen is a good suspect. Part of me thinks that he did it. The dna hurts that theory a little bit to me. I think outside of arthur lee alan. There's a lot of other suspects that look good in this case. I think that there is no way that this guy at least in my brain. There's no way that this guy stopped killing so he either died or got arrested for something else or continued killing and nothing has been linked to him. But that's not very plausible. Because i think he's going to call that stuff out. So i don't know if it's arthur leigh allen. I don't know who it is really. I think that psychopaths don't stop doing what they're doing. And they're not like you. And i alex and i get on kicks all the time and we're onto something else the next day right so so so for a killer to do that. I don't think it's really in the cards but it could be. It could be this guy moved on with his life. Stop killing how to family and died and didn't want to say anything about confessing to it because now he's got a family doesn't want his family knowing that he was a serial killer back in the day. There's just so many ways you can go with this case. I'm i i don't see enough to pin and on anybody which obviously the police in fbi and everybody else don't see anything to put it on anybody. So that's where i land on this zodiac but this is definitely one of my favorite episodes that we don. I love this case. I think we were all really excited about doing this. One so Really thank you guys for for listening if you guys have your own opinions and share who you think did it. You can hit us up on facebook at that strange. Podcast instagram twitter. And i would love to hear what you guys think for seventy or even in our blog our instagram and facebook or instagram and twitter are underscore that strange and then obviously our blog. Is that strange dot net. You can directly comment on the blog if you want or messages are to. We have some really cool stuff coming up in the near future here We got the podcast summit and deepen united You can check them out on facebook as well or just. Google search indie pods united. And then you can get all the information there. We have the event on that bright. You can get all kinds of great stuff It's going to be a really great Convention with podcasts artists. gravitate speakers and workshops as well too If you're a podcast or yourself get yourself in the game and And really learn a lot so And fantastic graphical design stuff being done by our very own alex. Thank you ryan thank you and yes. He's he is he is right is definitely about that. So we are still looking for sponsors. If you'd like to sponsor our show you can also contact us at Contact at that. Strange dot net or just hit us up on facebook like i said Pretty pretty. Well stay active on that. So thank you guys again for listening to this week's episode on zodiac and also make sure you check out our group on facebook. It's called that strange and we're building a great community of people there who just love discussing all things strange and unexplained. So you will see you next time as always. I'm alex i'm chad i'm ryan and we are that strange

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