Dave Ramsey: "I Got To Know Him On The Way Down"
Are you hiring with indeed you can post job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started today at indeed dot com slash ABC. That's indeed dot com slash ABC. This week's guest is Dave Ramsey. This is a guy who built his entire empire on helping others get out of debt. So we do the interview at Ramseys headquarters in Nashville Tennessee, and what really struck me about his entire staff. They were so gracious and so generous he says that generosity all stems from his faith, which he found as an adult and prior to finding his faith. He calls himself a hell raising beer-drinking hillbilly on this episode. We're going to talk to Dave about what keeps him grounded and how his faith informs how he handles his money. So here we are with Dave Ramsey in his radio studio just outside of Nashville at Ramsey solutions studios. If you haven't heard about Dave Ramsey, you need to know about him. He is a wildly popular radio personality. The Dave Ramsey show. You written seven bestsellers you built an empire by helping people get out of debt view, their money responsibly, give generously. And I know that my family we've been big fans of you for a very long time honored. Thanks. I want you to tell people what it is that you do for those that aren't familiar with. You are organising nowadays is called Ramsey solutions. And basically, we produce trusted content. We call it in several spaces the career space. The money's pace, the leadership space personal development space agree up under what you're talking about me teaching people on the Dave Ramsey show. About how to get out of debt. So that they can Bill wealth and live their dreams and be outrageously generous. And so grew up onto that me teaching folks how to transform their lives in that area. And and now we've got Ramsey personalities here. They're six of us that that speak and teach and write books and so forth. And that's the the succession plan if you will or the way to get to more folks than I can get to by myself. And so within that context, obviously were you know, we've got a huge curriculum a lot of broadcast things and podcast things going on and all of these different areas. And so there's about eight hundred on the team right now, we're doing a whole bunch of stuff and all of those spaces so oh about eight hundred. It's kind of scary put it all started really with from what I read it all started from a card table in your living room cycle. And after failure. You were a millionaire at twenty six years old, and you lost it all and then you built this multimillion dollar. How did you come back from from filing bankruptcy in from failure? It was for us. It was his failures epic. The bomb was dropped on our lives because Shannon. I we've been married thirty seven years. And so we started off broke, and we didn't have anything, and I started after a couple of jobs ended up started buying and selling real estate. I grew up in the real estate business. Momma. Daddy, we're in the business. And like you said I built a portfolio of real estate from nothing by the time. I was twenty six we had about four million dollars worth. And we're making a couple of hundred thousand a year which in the neighborhood, I grew up in we call that rich. It was pretty sweet we were having a blast. But I'd done a lot of stupid stuff. And I'm like borrow too much money in the Bank got sold to another Bank and called her notes. And we spent the next two and a half years of our life going through that epic crash of losing everything and starting over and so with a brand new baby and a toddler and a marriage hanging on by thread. We got the opportunity to start over from faith perspective. I do everything backwards. I didn't grow up in church, or you know, in a place where we talked about faith much, and so I actually met God as young adult on the way up when I was making that first fortune. But in losing it all I got to know him on the way down. So you build it all back up, but you had to lose it, all I. And what I love about your principles though, Dave is that you really focus on generosity getting out of debt. But you just mentioned it what kind of role. Do you think faith plays in being a good steward of your money? Will your worldview? Whether you don't have faith. That's what we're overview or you've got one of the various religions Christian included affects your decision making because it's your belief paradigms. And so based on that I'm going to make decisions, and you know, we hear this thing all the time on a public figure crashes. Oh, he made bad decisions. Now, you make decisions you bad beliefs that caused him to think that that was possibly on some planet gonna be okay, right to treat that person that way, and he wasn't going to come out. I mean, come on, you know, and so they had a bad belief system. It was arrogance. That led them believe they were bigger than everybody else. They could get away with crap. I don't whatever it is. You know? And so your belief system leads to that. And so I'm sometimes still criticized by Dame. I don't like you mixing all your Christian stuff into your money. I'd listen to you more. If you just didn't do that Christmas stuff separate the tin cans like saying, you know, it's like is going to have a Chevrolet truck. But it's not Chevrolet. I just can't do that. It's who we are. And here's the. Thing though, because your belief system. I think I would be teaching you. I really honestly believe be teaching you inaccurately if I didn't teach you based on what I know to be truth, and it's not. So you can't separate you religion from your marriage. It affects how you treat each other. When you're married, you can't second separate your faith, walk from how you treat your kids because it affects how you treat your kids informs, how you raise kids and informs how you are a leader inside exclusive the can't be right. So if you if you truly believe as an atheist or an agnostic, then that's going to inform how you lead people. It's going to inform how you handle money your belief system. Does that so to leave it out of the discussion of personal finance? It would be an incomplete discussion. It's actually on its intellectually insincere, right? What's unique about your jury? Is you? Identify as Christian, correct, Tom shillue. So what do you believe I'm evangelical Christian, which is not popular? So. It does not mean ignorant redneck, by the way. But. It means I'm a bible believing Christian even Jesus crisis on a God who rose on the third day. And I placed my sins on him. And I believe that. And I believe that the bobble is the word of God. Which is what they even Jellico community believes as well. But you were not raised in the church. No, not at all. No. So were you raised where you agnostic atheist for most of your life or not my parents fault? But I would say I was hedonist. It was pretty much out for Dave. And the the interesting thing is is that hedonism is where you act in your own self interest all the time and the weird thing about my take on scripture, and what I teach is that it actually ends up being in your self interest generosity ends up being in your self interest. Because generous people are grateful people and humble people which are highly attractive, and so it ends up being in your self interest to be generous. Right. You know, it's not hedonism. It is different. It's based on a rooted in a real religion in a in a real belief system. But, but yeah, I was just a little hell raisin beer-drinking hillbilly kids. When I was you know, you got into a little bit of trouble more than once such as. I've still got children alive. So really what what what Mark this transformation? Here you go from self-described hedonist to becoming a man of faith. What happened? What changed? Well, my wife, and I never talked about religion or anything for we got married, and we were so dumb. We didn't do real pre-marriage counseling which really ought to do because they stuff would come out. And if we didn't talk about it. I assumed we weren't worried about it. And so I that was dumb as we were kids or twenty two years old. So we get married and moved to Nashville got married at twenty two. Yes. And she she woke up on Sunday. And remembered she was a Baptist. And she said we're going to church, and I said, we're not going to church Sunday. I'm drinking beer and watching football. Do you ever been to church before that couple times? I grew up in Nashville. There's more Baptist there than people. So, you know, everybody's a Christian, you know, so to speak. But so we have big fight, and she leaves, and you know, she's Baptist didn't take her long to find her tribe. They're everywhere. And so she went there, and then I went to a a sales conference with this thing. I was in and a guy there started talking about how God changes the way, you view relationship with people which will change your propensity to succeed in business that if you don't value people you're gonna treat them like a transaction. And you're always gonna struggle in business. But when you treat them like a relationship like God does then you'll succeed. And I thought oh, this is part of the formula success, I'm practical, I'm gonna check this out. So I came home to my wife, we're going to church too. I want to do because I want to be successful stock started with selfish motive. So Billy Graham was quoted as saying that a lot of people come to Christ on a selfish motives, I came on Shurmur going to church, and she's like are you won't have you done my husband. But we we started visiting some churches and short version of story is we found a little church that actually I could connect with the people there with my values and with the thing, and they were winsome attractive and walked me in a very young man into a faith journey into acceptance of Christ and they'll start out of selfish motives, she wanted to be a good businessman. No, I believe the guy on the stage. I thought he's right. That guy's got credibility. And he says something money to have as a part of my life in order to succeed. I'll look into it. And then I got sucked in and by quality people. And that's generally how relationships are generally how people approach their faith. Did you feel that you had changed from the get-go or has it was it a slow evolution? Well, it was. There was so much change to do. So ugly that there was a there was a big change from the get-go. But there was still a lot of work to do after that. So there was more than just a big change to do. So. Yeah, Sharon would tell you today that she's really glad she's not married to her first opened. And. What were some of those changes you needed make I almost never get angry anymore, and I was a pretty angry person? And that makes you really lousy husband in a worse father. And but that was from that self in that frustration and driving ambition, and I'm still very passionate and sometimes because I'm so loud and gregarious people think I'm angry, but I'm not hardly ever get really angry anymore almost never happens. Do you think that because you found your faith later in life? You have a different perspective and a greater appreciation for that. Maybe somebody who grew up in the church or they grew up going to temple. I don't know. I mean, I don't know if it's greater it's different how it's different because it's for me. It's not assumed if you grow up, and like my kids did or my grandkids are in you know, is part of the rhythm of your life. And God is part of the rhythm of your life scriptures learning scriptures learning live by these this worldviews part of the rhythm of your life. Then it is assumed. And they're always reaches a crisis point in faith, as you reach adulthood, where you have to has become your parents faith has to become your faith. And so that that those kids had to have that crisis mine, and my grandkids will have the same thing. But that's different because they've got this. They've got a foundation and they've got something to reach back to for me. It was all Hugh. It was like I had discovered, you know, a world class art for the first time or I had discovered well written fiction for the first time, and it was beautiful. It was fresh and gorgeous. You know, weird thing is it's been thirty years in still that way to me really it still feels fresh and new. Yeah. I mean, I still find stuff in scripture. Not have. Wow. Are you are you in scripture daily? Truthfully. No I quote scripture because I've got so much of a memorized. But and it's it's become part of the rhythm of my teaching style and those kinds of things so the, but that doesn't count because that's not me receiving. That's me delivering so. But I I I'm I'm in there a couple times a week, and depending on what's going on in how how my is doing and how deep can get I used to read, and I generally I don't do as quite as much. But I almost always read a proverb a day who's thirty one of them. If you read proverbs over and over again you get wisdom. Sure. And so and that was something I was seeking wisdom. Hebrew word. Wisdom means the art of living life, well, and I wanted to live my life better. And so I needed that book. Wisdom has been it's been one of my favorite books. So you have a multimillion dollar empire. How do you stay grounded? I have the unbelievable benefit of having gone broke. She I don't think I'm important. And if I thought it was important, I'm married to a lady who share them not. And I've I've surrounded myself with people who understand that. There's no superman Cape around here. We've just worked hard and told the truth and love people. And there's no there's no magic sauce, and Dave hasn't got the corner on some kind of a little weird thing. That's you know, there's nothing like just a guy. I'm just working my butt off. Well, everyone around here that we've spoken to speak. So highly of you you've really bread generosity in your staff. I mean, everyone has been so kind in so gracious and generous not just they've been generous in spirit, good and their kindness. So and they speak very highly of yet so much as your work with people like this. And it's just I mean, we've all worked in those places that are like that. So we win best place to work every year. And those are the reasons we have a pretty low tolerance all of us. Here have pretty low tolerance for somebody deciding that there is it if somebody thinks access to the world runs to the top of their head they don't fit in around here. So you just you just mentioned how. Do you stay grounded? But how does your faith keep you grounded? Well, I think it reminds me that my heavenly father is absolutely crazy about me. And Scott, he's got a plan for me. How can you say that your heavenly father is crazy about you scriptures real clear on it? Plus, I've experienced it. I mean, I've experienced him holding me in his hand. When I was crushed. I had an unbelievable piece the passes all inter standing. I was bankrupt with two little kids. It's that's that's nice logical. Hey, make sense. And it wasn't like I was lazy or it wasn't a kind of a piece, but it was just thing of. Gotcha. Got you. And when I run into huge obstacles, and huge is always relative may when I got eighty people obstacles or huge one level. Now got eight hundred there's two goes there lose a huge another level. I always feel like out. He's got you. I got you got you back. I got your front. I got your side. And he he's never. Early and and seldom late he just shows up. And we see these weird. Intersections of things going on that when you watch them unfold, and we see how the he has been you know, how these other people call coincidences that have occurred in the last twenty five years of building this from a car table on our living room. There's no I mean, I work really hard. And I'm pretty smart. There's a level. I could have brought this to but you could not explain it based on that the what we've been able to pull off. I mean, the level we've been able to pull it off is called blessings, and it's it's a little weird, honestly. But it's so weird that to not acknowledge God's hand in it would just be again, it'd be intellectually insincere do you ever have moments where you question whether God exists, and how do you work through those? I don't now. I did when I was at the bottom. I had this piece one minute and the next minute. I'm like, yeah. If you're real where are you? If you're real give me a sign. Yeah. We'll are like pay the light Bill because I mean, it's getting cold in here, you know, and that kind of stuff so there was that kind of thing. But he's not, you know, had a bible teacher back. Then when it was in that teach me God's not concerned about your circumstances. He's concerned about how you react to your circumstances. He's concerned about building you not your circumstances. And so, you know, we sometimes we've done events that by the math and the profit and loss statement were complete failures. And. I did one that we lost two hundred seventy eight thousand on on way back many many years ago. And it was a live thing. We're putting out over satellite and all this stuff, and it just bombed who's just horrible. And I mean it and we don't borrow money. So that was a lot of money, and we have a lot of millions like it didn't it didn't put us out of business, but it hurt really bad financially. And you know, I still meet people a decade and a half later to say, you know, I went to that thing saved my life. It's I was getting re commit suicide, and you show me this or we were getting ready to get a divorce, and it saved our marriage, or you know, I was about to file bankruptcy, and I didn't have to because of that event. I'm like where were the rest of you because we could've used a profit on that thing? But you know, but it was you know, in God's economy. He would spend some of his money for those people and send us to do it. And so we have to step back and go. Yes, sir. On our way, sir. We're going to charge the hill. We don't know. How many of us are gonna make it up the hill on up the hill? Yes, sir. And and and yet he's never been unfaithful in. This thing has grown every year year over year intially it has. After the break. Dave reveals just how bad things got in his marriage and what pulled them through. With the Capital One venture card. You earn unlimited double miles on every purchase every day, and you can use those miles toward travel expenses. Like flights hotels, rental cars and more capital. One. What's in your wallet credit approval required capital? One Bank USA NA when it comes to hiring. You don't have time to waste you need help getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates fast. That's why you need indeed dot com. Get started today at indeed dot com slash ABC. That's indeed dot com slash ABC. You've listeners of many different faiths. Oh, yeah. Definitely. And you do, but how do you explain the existence of God? I don't know if I'm enough of a theologian or a philosopher to get into that. All I know is that is my personal walk. I've seen him show up. I've seen circumstances that raise the hair on the back of your head on the back of your neck, and you go. There's no explanation for that. It doesn't even make sense. And yet that just happened right in front of me, I've been on the air taking calls, and I suddenly knew what was going on in the person's life. And there is no reason to as if you are a prescient as if some as if God spoke to my mind, really, and and you know, I was talking to a lady one day, and she's telling me this about her boyfriend and her boyfriend disner boyfriend that and I said how long has she been hitting you? It got real quiet, and she waited too long to go. He's not I said, you just lied. We're going to get you out of there. And before I was done. The call screener had the local domestic violence shelter on the phone, and we got her out of there that day because he can kill and I don't how do I know that. I don't wanna do that. I just sitting there talking to this woman. You could just feel it somehow. You can't explain Dave Ramsey is not that smart. Difference between wisdom and knowledge older is but neither one of those were true unless you want if you to take it from Chris Matic Christian viewpoint say, it was a word of wisdom or. You know, it was a Holy Spirit wisdom, you could say that that wouldn't argue that point too too strenuously. But I really my point is stuff has happened around here that I can't take credit for and so that in my personal experience, I can say I've experienced God, you were talking about your faith while back, and you said one of the things on a real basic level was that I started just realizing by telling observation that order doesn't come from chaos. That's a physics principle. Chaos comes from order, and then you talked about an analogy that one of your friends who's a rabbi. Daniel weapons. Yes. Can you? Tell us about that analogy because I loved it. Sure. If Argun remembered, it's the if you put marbles in a jar is that and they're two different colors of marbles, and you shake them up. And they get the blue in the white marbles all intertwined you can shake that jar forever, and they will never be separated again. Right. Those there's no no number of random shakes. You can do that. It will ever get you to where those are separated. So for there to be order has to be a created order. Otherwise, you just believe in chaos, which you know, some folks that are atheists that are very intelligent see chaos all around them, and I see chaos to but I see more order than chaos, and I see cause and effect. I see when you plant things things grow. When you don't plan things things, don't grow, and what you plant generally grows. And so these are these are causing affect things that are signs of an ordered universe. Could you ever accept the possibility that there is no? Oh god. I guess I could I don't have any reason to I've got a lot of personal anecdotal evidence in thirty years of walking with him that he's shown up time and time again that just just real solid in it. I'm just real comfortable mound skin in that regard. But if somebody doesn't believe that I'm not mad at him. Right. That's just me and my walk. I I'm real clear about that. But, but you know, the, but I've got a lot of years of what I would call faith builders where you know, you're right at the edge of the cliff, and you don't fall off and something comes along and pushes you back. And it's it's there's just too much evidence. In the experiences for me to have anything other than a real solid, comfortable faith. You mentioned one of your differences is rabbi how important do you think it is especially in this climate that we're in debt to have people of different face that you can sit down and have a conversation with and learn from. Absolutely vital. Absolutely vital. You know, because it's very difficult to be prejudiced against someone that you know them. And so, you know, if you think that women are not capable and Har a weaker sex weaker vessel and don't hold the same caliber ability to play in say the business world, then you have been around many women because they're out there. I grew up with one my mom was is rockstar working mom, I've got them ladies on operating board here that are smarter than me or better business acumen than me. And so if you just if you're quieted with that the only way you could continue to be prejudiced would be that. You're dumb, you know, I mean, and so you know out of our six row. Z personalities to are African American and they're both absolute rock stars. They're incredible communicators thought leaders and work ethic and so forth. So to be racist is just dumb. But the only way you do that that you can be racist or hate something that's at a distance. But if you get up close, and you interact with people of different religions, and and different races and sexes and so forth in unless you just really dull you're going to start to catch on that. I see this. I get this and. My wife did a trip to Israel. We've done trips to Israel. But she did a trip to Israel and spent the whole time of the Palestinians, which is a whole different trip to Israel. And yeah, that's a totally different perspective. Why did she want to spend her time with the Palestinians? There's a bunch of Christian Palestinians. And they've got a story. They've got a narrative that's completely different different view on that whole global meltdown. There that's called Israel. And I love Israel, a love the Jewish people in big supporter of Israel the nation. And but she came home with stories. They're like, you know, it's a different thing. There's a whole 'nother side to this coin it, didn't it didn't change our politics. It didn't change our world view on something. But when you sit down you eat in somebody's house. It changes you listened you. Well, you you got to put up a new friend new friend, and and how can you not be somewhat for your friend? Even if you disagree with something they say when you look back at the absolute lowest moment of your life. What was it? It would have to be the bankruptcy. I may even have to be going through losing everything because everything was so low at that point my poor wife thought, she married, sir. Galahad turns out it was Guber. So I mean, she she's often laugh to said I would left, but we didn't have a car and things were that bad almost put up. I mean, we really were about to kill each other. But she's from hills of Tennessee frying pan throwing there's an Olympic event. So I mean, we were at each other. But it you know, again. We just held on in gripped through the storm, and that was faith all joking aside and all on one liners aside. But then five years later all those scars rose to the surface, and we spent some time with the marriage counselor. But it took that long to just get to where we could breathe and eat. And then by the time, we relaxed a little bit. We went. You're not really remember. How mad I wasn't you. And a man again now, so. It was it's been a journey. It's a process, but the that's that's probably our largest defining moment where we were were. I was the most scared the most faithless of the what were you scared of eating taking care of my babies and providing from simply putting food on the table was a struggle. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we didn't have any money when you're on my two hundred thousand the next year, I made six thousand taxable income so spent the whole year selling everything trying to pay off all the debt because there were crashing in on us. And I was trying to do the right thing. But you know, the lights are getting cut off the water is getting cut off the roof is leaking. And I mean, we didn't go without a meal, but it was close. I mean, we were having. We're scared. We know where he was going to come from when they're when they cut the lights off. It's that's a big deal. You know, when I take the when they don't just cut the water off, but they take the meter out. So you can't reconnect at yourself if they take the meter. Absolutely. And the lights were off for how long. They never at the same time because I managed to keep one of them back or forth, but either had or water. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't it wasn't weeks or something like that. But there were taste that that that we were there. That's right where we were Gary, and you still felt God in in the midst of that intermittently. I went from sheer terror sheer exhilaration every day, you know, highs and lows where do you think you like you said, you became a believer in your twenties? If you had answer this question, where do you think you'd be without your faith? How would you answer that? Sad. Why? Because I think I would have caught what I was chasing. And what were you chasing, wealth and fame? And I think I would have caught that. And it would have been, you know, set dog chasing the car catches it. What's he gonna do with it drop? What do I do? What do I do with it? And I got there, and I would have arrived. I wanna went this just didn't do it. If you eat enough, lobster tastes like soap. I mean, you there's not enough. There's not that lobster could ever taste like so enough of it. Not if you drench it in butter now, the butter the butter, I'm with you. But there there's not enough cars or enough houses. And we all know this, you know, as an intellectual exercise, no one will ever say money will make you happy, but a whole bunch of people act like it's going to everybody does. And and I was I was the chief among them. And the the irony is is that I have a whole bunch of money now, it's irrelevant. All I am as a manager. Now, I just manage money for God. And so I don't I don't really feel any different other than I'm not scared about the water being cut off. But I mean, it's I don't have any, you know, I don't have any like somehow got a different superpower that I didn't have or something. It's just I've got some more stuff to do. You know? Multimillion dollar empire. You just said I manage money for God. So you don't even view it as your money, which not. About if you believe what I believe evangelical. I'm a steward. I'm a manager. And so and that's not the tie the ten percent. That's the whole thing and in the power or the notoriety or the fame or whatever you wanna call this. That's landed on us as well. With fifteen million listeners a week. You know that there's a lot of power in that too. But that power is not mine. It'd be really careful how use that. Because not mine and be careful I use that money because it's not mine where it comes from. And so I'm supposed to use it this way, you may do that. Okay. You to do that. The irony is a whole bunch of people think of that I'm supposed to give it all away. Which if I am that he needs to tell me, but I'm not gonna listen to you. You don't get to tell me that. Because you're not got how do you determine how much you tie, and how much she gift to the church is that that's a personal decision. I'll give a tenth of my income, my gross before taxes. Yeah. And one year one much, but. I've done it every year and. Dollars a year. And I've heard people say if you tie, the, you know, the God will prosper you not always I'm proof of that. But over time he has, but I don't do it for that reason obviously that's a baseline for generosity. And then everything above that is just offerings. And that's just way of a family foundation that we dump a percentage of our income beyond the tie into every year that we're able to give a good deal of money to through. My oldest daughter manages that. She's the ministry minded of my three kids and a very very good at it. And so we find ministries that we feel like God is leading us to help with that. And we we are giving through that mechanism. But that way, we can be wise managers in wise, donors, not just impulsive and emotional, although we sometimes do something impulsive emotional things. But we think that's God when we do. That's all part of being human. And then realizing your mistake. Give me a word to describe your faith. No, a word or two view. I don't it's it's. It had to be a paragraph. But I mean, I it is the center I've who I am. And so it's it's how make all my decisions. It's how I what I measure behaviors against mine and others. And so it's all encompassing in that regard. But it's not necessarily. But hopefully, it's not almost sleeve to where it's off putting it is for some folks. But I get that. I get the Twitter mentioned check Twitter ever. Yeah. Under stay off of it. But I mean, it's it's it's pretty much devolve down in the trolls now, but the, but the, but I mean, there's I get that. If the pre Christ Dave would have listened to this radio show, he might have been off. But by I get it done. What do you want people to say about you? I don't think it matters. He was the best grandpa ever. God to say about you. Same thing. Whatever I do. I do what open. That's for. Sure. I don't do anything halfway. And even when I'm wrong. I am colossally wrong. And so that's probably a little end up on my team stone. Even if it's against my preference. But lastly wrong. Yeah. No, just wide. Open to speeds, asleep and wide open. Not a bad way. All right. It's been a pleasure. And I just need some African nation that you're going to go through my finances and make sure we're doing everything right out a personal consultation here on the road. Thank you. Borrow your studios, by the way, I want to have you on the podcast. And can I borrow your studio? Oh, good. I'm glad thanks for coming by. Thank you. That's another episode of journeys of faith in the books. Thank you so much for listening. And if you haven't subscribed, we encourage you to do so and give us a rating, if there's someone that you want on the podcast, all you have to do is tweet me at Paula Farris, next week's guest is PBS anchor. I'm not Nevada. And I'd be remiss if I didn't send a big thanks to the team here at ABC radio Suzy, Lou Joyce, Alcantara brianna Montalvo Lewis millman, Mike Dubovsky, Josh Cohen and Andrew cow. We'll see next week on journeys of faith. 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